[Mainline] Deep Dwarfs

[Transfermium]

It would also make sense for them to tame underground beasts like giant spiders, worms, centipedes, olms etc.

Deep Dwarven Spider Riders sound good as a scout.

[Samonella]

One thing that mainline factions seem to be missing is a team with weakness to blade. For the most part, units' resistances/weakness to blade are similar to their resistances/weakness to pierce (khalifate, dwarves, outlaws... even orcs, humans and elves) and the only big exception is drakes. This means there is no team against which blade is generally useful and pierce is generally not. Blade is better than pierce vs undead, but niether are good. Woses and saurians are the only units I can think of that fit the bill here, and they're just individual units. Besides, most cavalry follow the "pierce is more useful" trend.

So, even if you're not shooting for the stars of mainline (but especially if you are) I'd reccommend that all the basic fighters of the deep dwarves have a small pierce resistance and a small blade weakness. Of course, I can't say how to explain this, but if you follow skeptical_troll's idea for them to be smaller than dwarves, it might be intuitive for them to have some resistances/weaknesses similar to saurians.

[Whiskeyjack]

It would also make sense for them to tame underground beasts like giant spiders, worms, centipedes, olms etc.

Deep Dwarven Spider Riders sound good as a scout.

I already thought of this too, but can you really imagine anyone taming those nasty buggers? I certainly can´t. Using magic would be an option, but totally unfitting if they use something of the previously discussed runes/elemental magic. I actually prefer the idea of combining those two elements with Dwarves not so advanced in smithing.

They could have physical defenses at 10% or even 0% for being smaller (less sturdy) and less heavily armored. You could then let them have some type of battle rune users who cast magic and they could be reliant on elementals for their other jobs. Gyra_Solune pointed out that the fire elemental is the most pointless unit in all of mainline and I agree with this. It could be redesigned to be something more of a scouting unit (wind wouldn´t fit a deep under civilisation), while earth/stone golems fill the role of primary tanks.

I also liked the idea to give the dwarves some kind of water affinity, though that might stretch the imagination a bit (they could have slightly better defense and movement than usual I guess). Taming some kind of cavern creatures would certainly fit, just keep in mind that you usually wouldn´t find giant creatures under the earth (ofc WINR and fantasy, so whatever), I just can´t reconcile with the idea of tamed Giant Spiders.

Just throwing my thoughts around.

Edit: about the pierce/blade thing: This is a good idea also, but I can imagine the reason for the absence of blade weakness to be that every faction has some core units with blade (at least it seems to me to be the most common attack type across all factions), no? I think this could be problematic. Would have to be carefully considered.

[Samonella]

Edit: about the pierce/blade thing: This is a good idea also, but I can imagine the reason for the absence of blade weakness to be that every faction has some core units with blade (at least it seems to me to be the most common attack type across all factions), no? I think this could be problematic. Would have to be carefully considered.

If an attack type is available to all factions, doesn't that make it easier to balance? A blade weakness has a similar effect on all matchups, so it should be easier to balance than say the drakes, whose pierce weakness would leave them helpless to loyalists (if it wasn't for saurian allies).

Of course, I have no experience with new factions or serious balancing. Just chiming in what makes sense to me.

[skeptical_troll]

Taming beasts: there is really no limit to fantasy here. If spiders don't look intelligent enough for taming, it could be big moles, or salamanders or a totally fictional creature (not necessarily for mounting, they could be in other form of symbiosis). Who know what grows in the underground, separated from the rest of the world. If these guys are small as I was suggesting, some of them could be small enough to mount on big bats, as dwarves do with gryphons.

Blade weakness: this could be an idea. Some units like assassins and thieves are particularly weak to blade, and there is no explanation for that as well (unless I'm missing something). The idea would then be that against blade-heavy factions like orcs they'll need to be shielded by elementals.

[Vyncyn]

It might just work as multiplayer faction with those advices. I have a few more suggestions/ideas (some have already been mentioned before):
- give them 40% defense on flat and forest but worse resistance (maybe with the added blade weakness), since they are lighter equiped
- as scout either the fire element, bats, a dwarvish runner or a mounted unit (maybe lizard or worm). Fire Element might be most interesting if you give the dwarves cold resistance and fire weakness
- earth element as tank unit. Again, might be more interesting when dwarves are vulnerable to fire and the element has a resistance
- of course your dwarven Mage. His resistance is flexible because of his rune magic
- about 3 more units, propably deep dwarves. They should have blade and pierce damage, maybe impact too, and at least 1 who focuses on ranged.

[Gyra_Solune]

I think there's not much with an explicit blade weakness on purpose. Most of the time, pierce and impact are counterparts. Some things resist pierce (which is far and away the most prevalent ranged attack type and a staple melee attack type every faction uses a lot of barring the Rebels), but are in turn weak to impact (which is typically a specialist attack type on expensive, slow, tanky units - if it's even there at all, which is not really the case for the Drakes and Undead). This is basically half of how the Undead are designed - the actual Undead are very resilient to most common attacks and so they force their opponent to use their more unusual, specialized unit. The opposite is true too, with a number of units, usually cavalry, weak to pierce but resistant to impact, emphasising their role as units that are meant to support and attack exposed auxiliary units but can't do as well in an up-front line of battle.

Blade is usually a middle ground in this case - in fact the only unit I can think of that is more weak to blade than the other two is the Wose, which kind of makes sense for them. It is typically more akin to piercing damage, but not as extreme. Most things that pierce just are ineffectual against, blade is slightly less so, basically. It's supposed to be a very 'default' attack type that most basic infantry have on hand, and in fact the Spearman is the only infantry that doesn't have it (but it can promote into a Swordsman anyway). It's also the attack type most common on scouting units too!

So basically a faction explicitly weak to blade is going to have trouble with the very first units they will meet, and then trouble with the most common units the enemy is going to field. One must be careful when doing this!

(oh and things like the Thief and Footpad aren't explicitly weak to blade, they're just weak to all physical damage - prevents them from being too much of a dodgetank since it means any attack takes longer to heal from)

[doofus-01]

Taming beasts: there is really no limit to fantasy here. If spiders don't look intelligent enough for taming, it could be big moles, or salamanders or a totally fictional creature (not necessarily for mounting, they could be in other form of symbiosis). Who know what grows in the underground, separated from the rest of the world.

A variation from the spiders could be crickets, since they have been kept as pets/"little gladiators" in some parts of the world, and at least some species are subterranean. I don't think a giant cricket would have quite the same "nastiness" of a giant spider.
(A big star-nosed mole would be cool though.)

[Tad_Carlucci]

I like Giant Crickets!

Giant Crickets
Movement: 10 base
Attack: Chirp. This amazingly loud sound deals damage and deafens the opponent, stunning them for a round. (2x6 damage. slows).

Cricket Riders
Movement: 8
Attacks: Chirp plus 1 or 2 weapons for rider.

[White_Drag0n]

I feel like an 8 MP unit with such a reliable slow might turn off to be quite overtuned, but also interesting and fun to play. How about changing Chirp to 6x2, though? Would be like a mounted Elvish Shaman.

I feel like this faction could use multiple animals. Giant worms with poisonous attacks and whatnot. Mole riders. All that sort of stuff, since they seem to have a stronger bond with nature than regular dwarves.

[Sudipta]

I feel like this faction could use multiple animals. Giant worms with poisonous attacks and whatnot. Mole riders. All that sort of stuff, since they seem to have a stronger bond with nature than regular dwarves.

One thing i don't get is how would giant creautres even survive in the deep places of the world? What would these moles/crickets feed on to gain nutrition and grow large enough for these dwarves to mount them? And when u say that they have a stronger bond with nature, it does not really work becoz there isnt much nature underground if u know what i mean. I mean yeah there are some mushrooms and fungus, and maybe the occasonal subterrenean river but its mostly just rock and lava.
I like the idea of deep dwarves and them being more primitive and magic oriented than normal dwarves but associating them with underground animals is not the right way to go about this. Just my 2 cents on the matter.

[Eagle_11]

Aow1 had an flaming ancestor unit for dwarves, perhaps those deep dwarves could have an flamewalker branch(instead zerkers?) in their warrior caste that has an affinity with fire.

[Tad_Carlucci]

What would these moles/crickets feed on to gain nutrition and grow large enough for these dwarves to mount them?

Sounds like the answer is in the question. Just like surface creatures: each other. There's a food chain starting with the fungus and ending with the apex predator. I'd agree 'in tune with nature' is a stretch. (That sounds like Elves, to me.) But the creatures, dwarves included, would be much more reliant upon non-visual clues.

[White_Drag0n]

I mean yeah there are some mushrooms and fungus

Wow! That's a perfect idea too! Let's give them a fungus-based unit.

On a more serious note - my reasoning about the bond with nature is that if they are set apart with most civilisations, they need to live in harmony with the wild cave dwellers. And I believe we can think something out about these.

[Samonella]

This talk about ecosystems has me thinking. Mushrooms can't be the base of an ecosystem because fungi need food just like animals. We could go with the easy answer, namely, a fugus-like invertebrate that can survive off of nothing but minerals and Geo-thermal heat, but I like this idea much better:

All along the floor of The Great Ocean is a series of swift currents following ocean trenches. These 'underwater rivers' are astoundingly adept at collecting organic matter (dead fish, plankton and algae) but even more astounding is that all of these rivers combine into one massive water-way. And where does this natural aqueduct lead, you ask? Deep and straight into the Earth. At some point, the river flows into a vast, open cavern, where many streams split off of it. These spread widely enough to carry nutrients across the cave and to sustain a somewhat large and diverse ecosystem. The bulk of the river, however, continues on through a rocky and treacherous tunnel to depths unfathomed.

This geography goes well with skeptical_troll's idea for the deep dwarves to be aquatically adept, but even better is the door it opens for the deep dwarves' culture and religion. "The Inventor" is a God who lives up the river and sends gifts down it. Most important of all is the nutrient-rich water itself, without which the dwarves' crops of mushrooms would quickly die out. Also, he occasionally sends treasures such as skeletons of creatures the dwarves can barely imagine, whose bones are architecturally invaluable and whose teeth are useful tools and weapons. On the other hand, "The Destroyer" lives down river, and anyone careless enough to be caught in the current and carried down to him is never heard from again. Worse, there are legends of a time long ago when The Destroyer sent out an ocean of hot, red ooze that burned everything it touched and permanently scarred the landscape. It was the steady, fearless water from The Inventor that cooled his wrath and saved everyone.

Also possible is an idea for a campaign explaining the dwarves journey to the surface. A merman king, an outstandingly persuasive public speaker, was exploring the bottom of The Great Ocean when he and his party were caught in one of the 'underwater rivers.' Incredibly, he (and some of his followers?) survived the journey downward. After learning to communicate with the deep dwarves, his moving tales of the overworld and its wonders motivated the dwarves to brave the upward journey to meet The Inventor, or at least see this second world he created. And maybe The Destroyer started oozing lava again, so they had no choice but to try.