Visible areas around villages under Fog of War conditions?

Nothsa · Post by **Nothsa** » May 31st, 2004, 6:33 pm

Currently Fog of War is 'dissipated' only by proximity to one's own units. Controlled villages do not have any visible area around them; in fact, the village hex itself is not visible if no unit is close enough (for example, Home of the Elves, which I'm playing now).

It makes sense to me that this be changed for both logical and strategic grounds. Logically, a controlled village provides income, suggesting that some friendly activity, presumably by agents with functional eyes, is occurring in the village. Strategically, villages would be more valuable under FoW if a region around them (even a small region, like 2 hexes) were visible, as players could use villages to assess the power of an invading column. And, of course, this could lead to interesting tactics by the invader to disguise the magnitude of an invasion force.

If this idea seems warranted, I'd suggest a fairly small diameter hole in the fog - 2 or 3 hexes away from the village.

A nearly unrelated suggestion is to change the extent of FoW around units (and villages) at night, so that a smaller area is visible.

Post by **turin** » May 31st, 2004, 7:40 pm

First of all, 2-3 hexes is nothing near small. it can provide a wealth of information, IMHO too much information for just controlling a village. Maybe it would be OK if you could see only the hex the village is on, so you can see if any unit is on the village itself. Ok, that doesn't really make sense. So i don't support being able to see anything with villages.

Second of all, you can get information, by looking at which villages you control. It tells you when one of your village is captured, because your flag goes away.

Third, the area seen by FOW should not change during night. Unless units lose movement during night, they can move to the same places. And, i hope you agree, you should be able to see everywhere you can move. The 1 hex border around this is so you can also see any units you can attack during your turn. So, on FOW, you can see everything that you could effect that turn, for example, by flagging, moving to, or attacking. I don't see why night should change this.

Dacyn · Post by **Dacyn** » May 31st, 2004, 8:16 pm

By the normal rule [1], villages would be able to see the hexes adjacent to them. This is obviously smaller than 2-3 hexes...

turin wrote:Maybe it would be OK if you could see only the hex the village is on, so you can see if any unit is on the village itself. Ok, that doesn't really make sense. So i don't support being able to see anything with villages.

Maybe the UI should just show villages as revealing themselves.

turin wrote:So, on FOW, you can see everything that you could effect that turn, for example, by flagging, moving to, or attacking. I don't see why night should change this.

Of course, one possibility would be to allow units to see farther during day, thus not breaking this rule. But IMO this is needlessly complicated...

[1] assuming villages are units with 0 movement[2].
[2] assuming this does not cause Wesnoth to crash.

Post by **quartex** » May 31st, 2004, 8:33 pm

I could understand villages being able to see all adjacent hexes. It would make them into little watchtowers, breaking the fog of war.

Post by **Dave** » May 31st, 2004, 9:29 pm

I think it might be good if villages could at least see the hex they're on. This way, you would be able to see if a unit captures your village, rather than perhaps not noticing it.

Maybe the adjacent hexes would be good too.

David

Post by **Sangel** » June 1st, 2004, 5:12 am

I'd go for villages "seeing themselves" and maybe the immediately adjacent hexes. No more than that, though.

Insinuator · Post by **Insinuator** » June 1st, 2004, 6:13 am

Yes, villages able to see all adjacent hexes would be more realistic, and it doesn't sound very difficult to code, nor would it horribly upset gameplay. It might even enhance it. It's even possible in WML, yea!

Nothsa · Post by **Nothsa** » June 1st, 2004, 8:49 pm

Turin, I agree with a couple of your points - the game becomes much more complicated with a variable FoW, and that's not desirable. I also think you're right about 2-3 hexes being too big. I still think a 1-hex radius would add something, though. Having solely the village hex visible doesn't seem to add anything, though, other than a better indicator for when a village is captured (but by what kind of unit?)

Villages would be more valuable as 'watchtowers' as well as gold generators, and especially in multiplayer there might be some interesting tactical issues in moving near enemy villages or deciding which troops should actually capture the village. I think it might be possible to exploit this for an interesting single-player level: imagine a starting situation in which the human player controls towns scattered across the map. Computer-controlled forces would roll through, mostly obscured by FoW, but their progress and makeup occasionally revealed as they capture the villages.

Well, it's a thought, at least.

Post by **Darth Fool** » June 1st, 2004, 9:12 pm

I could have sworn that I made this suggestion in some previous post a long time ago, including pointing out that the only way to do this currently is to recall a teleporting mage and have him sit on a village. Unfortunately, I couldn't find the post. argh. In any case, I think having the villages have a 1-hex-radius break in the FoW would be a good idea.

Post by **turin** » June 1st, 2004, 9:41 pm

i though i said i was in favor of a 1-hex radius. just make the villages work like 0 movement units.

Elvish_Pillager · Post by **Elvish_Pillager** » June 1st, 2004, 9:44 pm

I agree with that too.

Dacyn · Post by **Dacyn** » June 2nd, 2004, 6:30 pm

turin wrote:i though i said i was in favor of a 1-hex radius. just make the villages work like 0 movement units.

lvl -1, 0 move units

Of course the village is not a unit; otherwise units could not move onto them. So I am not really sure they should be given vision.

Post by **turin** » June 2nd, 2004, 6:41 pm

Dacyn wrote:
turin wrote:i though i said i was in favor of a 1-hex radius. just make the villages work like 0 movement units.
lvl -1, 0 move units
Of course the village is not a unit; otherwise units could not move onto them. So I am not really sure they should be given vision.

why lvl-1? do you mean lvl negative-1, or lvl 1? lvl negative 1 because it actually gives you gold? then shouldn't it be lvl negative 2?

i think that maybe they should be given sight, but it is by no means necessary. i don't think it would add or subtract from the game.

Dacyn · Post by **Dacyn** » June 2nd, 2004, 7:58 pm

turin wrote:why lvl-1? do you mean lvl negative-1, or lvl 1?

lvl -[1]1.

turin wrote:lvl negative 1 because it actually gives you gold? then shouldn't it be lvl negative 2?

No, because only 1 goes to your upkeep. The other is just a turn-based gold-generating event.

turin wrote:i think that maybe they should be given sight, but it is by no means necessary. i don't think it would add or subtract from the game.

If it would not add or subtract, then by default it should not be added.

[1]this means negative