Buff javelineers pls

[MikiTheBerserkr]

I was very enthusiastic about the javelineer unit. It has much lower damage, and hp compared to other spearman upgrades, and I think it's fine (perhaps it could have just 1 more movement point though, since it's apparently a lighter unit?). However I don't think it's fine at all, that it has no level 3 upgrade!!! It makes javelineers unviable!

[egallager]

I was very enthusiastic about the javelineer unit. It has much lower damage, and hp compared to other spearman upgrades, and I think it's fine (perhaps it could have just 1 more movement point though, since it's apparently a lighter unit?). However I don't think it's fine at all, that it has no level 3 upgrade!!! It makes javelineers unviable!

I'm pretty sure the lack of level 3 upgrade is intentional; someone else will have to find the discussion about it...
(although, there are some add-ons that go and introduce a level 3 for it anyways...)

[MikiTheBerserkr]

I'm pretty sure the lack of level 3 upgrade is intentional

Well obviously, I don't imagine devs did that by accident. What's your point though?

(although, there are some add-ons that go and introduce a level 3 for it anyways...)

Oh, cool, thanks. Is it possible to use those addons on an already existing save?

[Ravana]

Point was that buff wont happen.

Savefile is compressed WML, so you can unpack it and do any changes you want. Basic approach could be to create new save with new addon, find what metadata it records and then bring that addon to savefile, possibly also change type of some units.

[octalot]

I'm pretty sure the lack of level 3 upgrade is intentional; someone else will have to find the discussion about it...

https://r.wesnoth.org/t7205 must have been written after the javelineer was added, otherwise it would be discussed there. Neither of the other upgrades from the spearman have a ranged attack, so the javelineer is added to ensure that there's always an option to level up into a better unit for the situation that you're currently facing, even if that means the unit isn't as good when you have several more scenarios to gain XP.

Is it possible to use those addons on an already existing save?

If you're editing a start-of-scenario save, look for the active_mods= line. Editing a middle-of-scenario save is more difficult.

[Lord-Knightmare]

Javelin as octalot has suggested/implied/whatever is a situational unit.
Like suppose in the situation you have this condition "units wont be carried over" and you need something to hold their ground in a place (castle/village/fortress) and you can recruit spearman as well as others. So, knowing that first condition and the second one, you would find getting a Javelin is worth it. Since they can pretty much do decent damage in both ranged and melee (18/24/30 melee & 18/22/28 ranged), so they can defend the spots by dealing decent retaliation. An example is the final scenario of TSG's elf branch. XP gained here wont matter so getting Javelin to hold the defensive line is optimal.
Beyond that case, I would pick for Swordsman.

[MikiTheBerserkr]

Point was that buff wont happen.

Don't troll.

https://r.wesnoth.org/t7205 must have been written after the javelineer was added, otherwise it would be discussed there. Neither of the other upgrades from the spearman have a ranged attack, so the javelineer is added to ensure that there's always an option to level up into a better unit for the situation that you're currently facing, even if that means the unit isn't as good when you have several more scenarios to gain XP.

Oh, so the devs don't care about javelineer at all, and the ONLY reason it is there, is so you can still use ranged attack if you happen to level up?

That's a shame!!!

If you're editing a start-of-scenario save, look for the active_mods= line. Editing a middle-of-scenario save is more difficult.

:/

[Hejnewar]

Meanwhile, few topics lower sits this change for a few months already.

Javelineer - ranged damage increased from 11 to 13, cost changed from 25 to 24.

Buff I guess.

[Krogen]

Well, Necrophage and Orcish Slayer didn't have lvl 3s back in the day either, and then they suddenly had one. I don't think it's out of the question.
Also, as far as spearman lvl ups go, yes, Jav can't compete with Sword, but it surely can with Pike. About 80% of lvling spears become Swords, 10% goes to Pike and 10% to Jav. If Sword didn't exist, i think it'd be 50-50. That when you don't expect to reach lvl 3, so outside of campaigns.

[otzenpunk]

Jav can't compete with Sword, but it surely can with Pike. About 80% of lvling spears become Swords, 10% goes to Pike and 10% to Jav. If Sword didn't exist, i think it'd be 50-50. That when you don't expect to reach lvl 3, so outside of campaigns.

Why is Sword so much better than Pike? Is it just because they switch to blade and you're getting more variety in attacks? I understand in campaigns, that Loyalists by lore often face Undead at some point, and pierce is really crappy against them, and if you do expect to reach level 3, the Royal Guard's +1 extra movement is great. But in multiplayer I'd have expected Pike and Sword to be more evenly distributed, depending on the opposition, with good arguments for Pike at least against Drake, Rebels and other Loyalists.

[Krogen]

Why is Sword so much better than Pike? Is it just because they switch to blade and you're getting more variety in attacks? I understand in campaigns, that Loyalists by lore often face Undead at some point, and pierce is really crappy against them, and if you do expect to reach level 3, the Royal Guard's +1 extra movement is great. But in multiplayer I'd have expected Pike and Sword to be more evenly distributed, depending on the opposition, with good arguments for Pike at least against Drake, Rebels and other Loyalists.

It's mainly the resistances. 20/20 to blade and impact makes it much more reliable than just 40 to pierce. Also most units with pierce, that Loyalists face, either have access to multiple damage types (clasher, orcish archer) so they can get around pierce resistance, or are heavy ranged damage dealers (elvish archer, thunderer) in which case Pikeman is better than Swordsman, but Javelineer is even better. So Pikeman is just very rarely the best choice you have.
Also there are little things, like the four strikes on Swordsman make it a preferable choice for units with strong trait. Or blade is generally a little better than pierce, but not by much, however as Loyalist even if you advance a unit, you're still expected to have a bunch of lvl 1 Spearmen. Adding damage variety makes sense there. And then there is first strike, the ability that's only ever relevant (or more like, CAN be relevant) if you're defending and at least one of the fighting units can die in the engagement. Sure it feels good to hit first, but few players really consider if that matters at all in most cases. The only unit that have high enough damage so first strike adds significant value to it is the Drake Arbiter and its level up. So first strike on Pikeman doesn't really offer much most of the time when you look at the other obvious advantages the Sword have.
It's like Pikeman was designed for the mirror matchup, but you rarely see that in multiplayer.

Also for example Pikeman is mostly useless against something like Wose or Skeletons, while Swordsman does still reasonably well against Elvish Archers and Thunderers. So it's just a far more reliable choice with no hard counter.

Weirdly, in campaigns where you can expect to reach lvl 3, Pikeman is a much better option than it is in multiplayer. First of all, the possibility of mirror matchups. Sure, at lvl 2 it's no competition, but a Halberdier is still a force to reckon with, about as good as Royal Guard. So overall you'll see mostly Pikes and Swords in campaigns and Javs and Swords in multiplayer.