Expanding Orcish History

[Gothyoba]

This topic is dedicated to expanding the political and social history of orcs. You may post any ideas you have on the topic. There is relatively little on orcs in the history of Irdya. While many campaigns show orcs, as far as I know onlyone orcish clan is named and we very little history of orcs. These are some the the few major orcish clans:

Whitefang Orcs - Mentioned in DiD

Glamdrol Orcs

Far Northern Orcs? These appear to be several clans.

Given the large extent of the Whitefang Orcs, maybe they could be called the Whitefang Empire? The sea orcs appear further south in HttT. Maybe they could also be expanded upon.

Ultimately, I think an Orcish Timeline should be made here. Even if it doesn’t get added, it could still be useful as inspiration for UMCs.

[holypaladin]

This topic is dedicated to expanding the political and social history of orcs. You may post any ideas you have on the topic. There is relatively little on orcs in the history of Irdya. While many campaigns show orcs, as far as I know onlyone orcish clan is named and we very little history of orcs. These are some the the few major orcish clans:

Whitefang Orcs - Mentioned in DiD

Glamdrol Orcs

Far Northern Orcs? These appear to be several clans.

Given the large extent of the Whitefang Orcs, maybe they could be called the Whitefang Empire? The sea orcs appear further south in HttT. Maybe they could also be expanded upon.

Ultimately, I think an Orcish Timeline should be made here. Even if it doesn’t get added, it could still be useful as inspiration for UMCs.

I have to agree, we don't have much informations about society of orcs, they are mostly just as enemy leader who don't even say anything (or anything important), only orkish campaning Son of the Black Eye is much later in timeline than other campanings...

[redbeard2]

One thing never made super clear: were the Wesfolk fleeing orcs or something else? Winds of fate seems to suggest it May have been drakes they were fleeing, I’m unclear if the homeland of the orcs is the old continent of the wesfolk or something else

If the orcs aren’t from the same continent as the wesfolk, how did the lich lords find them?

[name]

One thing never made super clear: were the Wesfolk fleeing orcs or something else? Winds of fate seems to suggest it May have been drakes they were fleeing, I’m unclear if the homeland of the orcs is the old continent of the wesfolk or something else

If the orcs aren’t from the same continent as the wesfolk, how did the lich lords find them?

I think everything we know about the situation in the distant west comes from a few conversations with Lady Jessene in The Rise of Wesnoth:

Jessene: "They pledged to visit all of the terrors of the hells upon the Isle. They built a great stone gate to the heart of the homeland of the orcs in the distant west! Now even we Wesfolk must flee or be slaves."

So here she says just that the orcish homeland is somewhere in the distant west (same general direction the wesfolk came from). Whether or not it is on the same landmass as the wesfolk homeland is not explicitly stated. But I think your logic is sound that the two were probably not too far apart. Otherwise, since the wesfolk are competent seafarers. they may have disovered a more distant orcish homeland during a maritime expedition.

Jessene: "Haldric, we are an ancient people who lived in a land filled with all manner of man and beast.

Here she mentions the wesfolk homeland being a dangerous place with many kinds of competitors and/or threats. It seems very possible the orcs were one of these, but what were the others?

Jessene: "Other than losing our war in the far West, then our refugee war to your people, and this orc thing, it wasn’t such a bad deal.

Notice here she mentions the orcs only in the context of the current situation (orcs invading the Green Isle) and not as enemies in the war the wesfolk lost in the far west. It seems like she would have mentioned that the orcs were the ones the wesfolk lost their original homeland to, if that was indeed the case?

Jessene: "You must head east because my people came from the west, which is teeming with every form of enemy and monster imaginable. There is literally no room there. If you thought we were bad, you should see what else comes behind us. You’d be slaves, or you’d be dead."

And here again she mentions there being many kinds of dangerous monsters and enemies in the distant west, while citing the pursuing orcs as an example of one of these things.

[redbeard2]

A big part of Orcish History that is a big hole: Their takeover of the North, and what ended up happening between them and the Lich Lords.

I made a campaign depicting this, so this is my portrayal of events, let me know how reasonable my depiction is:

Orcs live in a desolate, barren homeland, over-hunted and in constant warfare. Brurbar is a minor character there, but accepts the Lich Lords invitation to go to the Green Isle. He eventually seizes control of all orcs there, and when the Lichs order the second invasion after the first fails, he and the lich lords target the north to subsequently invade South. Brurbar largely succeeds, devastating the northern Dwarves and forging alliances with Trolls and Naga (the classical Northerner faction) and Saurians (clearly close allies by Legend of Wesmere). The orcs have a falling out with the Lich Lords when they order the orcs on a suicidal attack on Crenalu, who seeks to wipe them out (Crenalu being an exile at this point). Most of the Lich Lords are wiped out by Crenalu, with the last of them killed by Brurbar. Other Wesnoth exiles seek the same land the orcs do, and Brurbar just barely succeeds in holding them off and establishing the orcs as supreme over all other factions in the north.
He ends up being manipulated into invading Wesmere to get the Ruby of Fire to prevent the Elves from using it against the orcs, where he is subsequently assassinated and the orcs fall into chaos.

A lot of it is made up, but some is factual/canon and I guess I wanted to point out historical points that I think should be expanded upon:
-Brurbar is described as the greatest Orc ever, but has zero mentions in Rise of Wesnoth that I remember, which could imply his rise to power happened after those events.
-The orcs worked closely with the Lich Lords in Rise of Wesnoth, but in Legend of Wesmere the undead are 100% missing, so something happened between the two.
-By the time Secrets of the Ancients happens, the Orcs refer to a conflict with the Undead and clearly hate them
-In Legend of Wesmere, the orcs seek the Ruby of Fire, but when it is within their grasp in Scepter of Fire and afterwards, they have zero interest in it.
-The Dwarves in Rise of Wesnoth depict themselves as undisputed rulers of their mountain/cavern kingdoms, but by Scepter of Fire Orcs and Trolls are running amok extremely close to Dwarvish lands, clearly those few years went extremely poorly for them.
-In Legend of Wesmere Crenalu is described as saving the Dwarves from a Lich. I presume this is a Lich Lord, though this isn't stated clearly
-Rassin Tabin (Ras Tabahn) in Secrets of the Ancients states he fought alongside the orcs and they aren't all bad

For me a central question: If the Lich Lords are the ones who really wanted the Ruby of Fire, if the Orcs had a falling out with them before Legend of Wesmere (which seems to be the case), why did they even bother trying to get it? They weren't magicians, and would have been hard put to eve throw fireballs with it, let alone unleash its vague, hinted at greater power. I surmise they went after it over fear the elves would come after them with it, not because they actually wanted it.

I'd be interested in what people have to say about these lore questions, because it's the entire plot to my campaign, and I want to be consistent with understood Wesnoth lore...

[gnombat]

For me a central question: If the Lich Lords are the ones who really wanted the Ruby of Fire, if the Orcs had a falling out with them before Legend of Wesmere (which seems to be the case), why did they even bother trying to get it?

The Ruby's magical powers are never fully explained in any campaign, but I think perhaps there's an implication that the Ruby may be having an influence on people's minds so that they covet it and seek it out.

I surmise they went after it over fear the elves would come after them with it, not because they actually wanted it.

Well, the orcs may indeed be terrified at the prospect of the elves using it against them. But to me, it would seem rather odd if the orcs didn't actually want it for themselves. In any campaign where it appears, all characters who understand what it is (and even some who don't) seem to be chasing after it...

[name]

A big part of Orcish History that is a big hole: Their takeover of the North, and what ended up happening between them and the Lich Lords.

Unfortunately, these holes are due to Legend of Wesmere being written in many ways as though it is set at a much later date than 20 YW. Everything would make quite a lot more sense for 20 YW if the role played by Brurbar was instead filled by a lich-lord, and then only after this lich-lord's destruction do the disorganized surviving orcs flee into the northlands (away from the victorious elves).

For me a central question: If the Lich Lords are the ones who really wanted the Ruby of Fire, if the Orcs had a falling out with them before Legend of Wesmere (which seems to be the case), why did they even bother trying to get it? They weren't magicians, and would have been hard put to eve throw fireballs with it, let alone unleash its vague, hinted at greater power. I surmise they went after it over fear the elves would come after them with it, not because they actually wanted it.

There may be no terribly good reason for them to want it, except that a powerful lich-lord sought it in order to become even more powerful, so they assume it can somehow do the same for them.

[redbeard2]

Outside of the Ruby in Legend of Wesmere, the orcs have shown zero interest for magical items, it just seems uncharacteristic for them to go to such lengths and distances to attack the Elves unless they had a pressing reason...

Indeed I was shocked the first time I played Legend of Wesmere and there were no undead at all, their estrangement from the Undead seems to be such a glaring omission

[name]

Outside of the Ruby in Legend of Wesmere, the orcs have shown zero interest for magical items, it just seems uncharacteristic for them to go to such lengths and distances to attack the Elves unless they had a pressing reason... Indeed I was shocked the first time I played Legend of Wesmere and there were no undead at all, their estrangement from the Undead seems to be such a glaring omission

It really is, yeah. Which may be something that should be fixed with a rewrite of Legend of Wesmere (similar to how Eastern Invasion's rewrite fixed its canon inconsistencies with other mainline campaigns). The orcs in a (rewritten) Legend of Wesmere could be operating under the direction of a lich-lord seeking the Ruby of Fire.

Then, we might only see the first great horde and its first great chief occur much later in the timeline (which gives orcs more time to grow their numbers in the northlands before becoming a force of nature on the Great Continent).

[redbeard2]

At the end of Winds of Fate some drakes apparently go west to the Green Isle, I have to think they just somehow missed the orcs' second invasion fleet, as if they had met, I'd have to think the orcs might never have reached the continent, or Karron would have been killed, it doesn't state it either way but I have to imagine the timing must have been perfect to not meet up with each other's main forces.

[name]

At the end of Winds of Fate some drakes apparently go west to the Green Isle, I have to think they just somehow missed the orcs' second invasion fleet, as if they had met, I'd have to think the orcs might never have reached the continent, or Karron would have been killed, it doesn't state it either way but I have to imagine the timing must have been perfect to not meet up with each other's main forces.

The idea is that the drakes actually do arrive on the Green Isle before the second orcish invasion fleet departs for the Great Continent in search of the Ruby of Fire. But these drakes employ indirect, opportunistic, long game strategies; essentially the opposite of what they ultimately did with their invasion of the Great Continent in the east. This is because they are lead by (a more experienced) Karron, who came around to embrace glider pragmatism and knowledge, after finally being humbled by the three decisive (and in at least one case, very costly) defeats she suffered during the events of Winds of Fate.

So instead of an immediate head on clash with the orcs, the drakes might arrive quietly and stick to the hard to reach badlands (like the swamps and high mountains). Maybe spending the first year just observing the situation on the Green Isle - which would likely be that the orcs are numerous but have over exploited the island's finite resources and are fighting each other for what's left. Armed with enough knowledge, they could engage in some effective guerrilla warfare to help motivate the orcs to move on (to the Great Continent). Like temporarily supporting the weaker orcish clans against the stronger ones, burning crops, freeing human slaves, forming an alliance with the mermish under Lord Typhon and the woses of The Oldwood, perhaps even (with the help of a human silver mage) switching the lich gates from a connection to the orcish homeland to a connection with the homelands of the orc's enemies in the distant west.

In other words, this time the drakes would stick to the general strategy that Resha had originally advocated for using on the Great Continent, which would likely have worked out much better for the drakes. For example, instead of drakes surprise attacking the humans of the fledgling Kingdom of Wesnoth (in WoF S6: Landfall), they might have allied with King Haldric in exchange for a land grant of the western coastal region of Wesnoth. By granting that region to the drakes, Haldric would be putting a further barrier between his endangered people and the second orcish invasion from the ocean which he foresaw, as well as a barrier against the backstabbing which Lady Jessene had discovered the elves of Wesmere were planning.

[redbeard2]

Interesting detail, if I do revise my campaign describing the second orcish invasion not sure if I should try including this, or if it would just distract from things…

[holypaladin]

A big part of Orcish History that is a big hole: Their takeover of the North, and what ended up happening between them and the Lich Lords.

I made a campaign depicting this, so this is my portrayal of events, let me know how reasonable my depiction is:

Orcs live in a desolate, barren homeland, over-hunted and in constant warfare. Brurbar is a minor character there, but accepts the Lich Lords invitation to go to the Green Isle. He eventually seizes control of all orcs there, and when the Lichs order the second invasion after the first fails, he and the lich lords target the north to subsequently invade South. Brurbar largely succeeds, devastating the northern Dwarves and forging alliances with Trolls and Naga (the classical Northerner faction) and Saurians (clearly close allies by Legend of Wesmere). The orcs have a falling out with the Lich Lords when they order the orcs on a suicidal attack on Crenalu, who seeks to wipe them out (Crenalu being an exile at this point). Most of the Lich Lords are wiped out by Crenalu, with the last of them killed by Brurbar. Other Wesnoth exiles seek the same land the orcs do, and Brurbar just barely succeeds in holding them off and establishing the orcs as supreme over all other factions in the north.
He ends up being manipulated into invading Wesmere to get the Ruby of Fire to prevent the Elves from using it against the orcs, where he is subsequently assassinated and the orcs fall into chaos.

A lot of it is made up, but some is factual/canon and I guess I wanted to point out historical points that I think should be expanded upon:
-Brurbar is described as the greatest Orc ever, but has zero mentions in Rise of Wesnoth that I remember, which could imply his rise to power happened after those events.
-The orcs worked closely with the Lich Lords in Rise of Wesnoth, but in Legend of Wesmere the undead are 100% missing, so something happened between the two.
-By the time Secrets of the Ancients happens, the Orcs refer to a conflict with the Undead and clearly hate them
-In Legend of Wesmere, the orcs seek the Ruby of Fire, but when it is within their grasp in Scepter of Fire and afterwards, they have zero interest in it.
-The Dwarves in Rise of Wesnoth depict themselves as undisputed rulers of their mountain/cavern kingdoms, but by Scepter of Fire Orcs and Trolls are running amok extremely close to Dwarvish lands, clearly those few years went extremely poorly for them.
-In Legend of Wesmere Crenalu is described as saving the Dwarves from a Lich. I presume this is a Lich Lord, though this isn't stated clearly
-Rassin Tabin (Ras Tabahn) in Secrets of the Ancients states he fought alongside the orcs and they aren't all bad

For me a central question: If the Lich Lords are the ones who really wanted the Ruby of Fire, if the Orcs had a falling out with them before Legend of Wesmere (which seems to be the case), why did they even bother trying to get it? They weren't magicians, and would have been hard put to eve throw fireballs with it, let alone unleash its vague, hinted at greater power. I surmise they went after it over fear the elves would come after them with it, not because they actually wanted it.

I'd be interested in what people have to say about these lore questions, because it's the entire plot to my campaign, and I want to be consistent with understood Wesnoth lore...

- In Rise of Wesnoth orcs served Jeavyan's goals but don't seems to respect him even a bit
" speaker=Tan-Vragish
message= _ "Da old bag of bones has been crushed, and our cause is lost. We know da elfses have da fire ruby. Retreat!""
- Some lich lords as Lenvan, Caror (defeated before Wesfolk allied with orcs) are not even neutral, in scenario with Caror he's in team opponent to orcish
- Ras Tabahn in Secrets of the Ancients just mentions event from Founding of Borstep, campaining from the same author as Secrets of Ancients but not in mainline (Secrets of Ancients were for a long time just optional as well, was added in 1.13). There Ras Tabahn is spared by orcs for support them in one fight with elves and turning dead orcs into ghosts

[redbeard2]

Yeah, I've not gotten into UMCs that much, so I don't know Founding of Borstep, it would probably make my story untenable, but so far it isn't canon...overall it seems the orcs only work with the undead as they offer new lands to pillage and sources of food.

One aspect of Orcs that seems interesting are moments they show restraint: The Port of Tirigaz, they must be trading with someone, and they let humans live fairly close to them. This implies there are interactions beyond bare hostility at least sometimes.