Wesnoth 0.7.8 released

miyo · Post by **miyo** » June 8th, 2004, 6:16 pm

Dave wrote:Also you are an administrator, miyo, you do have the power to delete posts and/or ban users if you think they post anything inappropriate.

Trust me, I know. I don't want to delete someones posts (so that no-one can read them) just because I am fed up with some guy/gal.

We have more important things than argue if developers are right or not. Developers are developing this game. We do the decisions, we have listened our players and we will continue listening our players (might be some exceptions to that in future).

"What really is simple" -discussion belongs to off-topic forum. I would advice no developer to participate as it seems that it will be used against him/us.

And another thing, if players talk about something here and agree that something is nice... that does not mean that any developer has agreed or that it will be implemented. There are more players than developers here, players reaching concensus does not mean it has been agreed by developers.

Also if there continues to be more and more non-sense I am afraid developers must drop participating in forum so that they can focus on actual development (which has been fast in case of Wesnoth). Rather than stop reading forum I go ignoring some guys/gals

- Miyo

miyo · Post by **miyo** » June 8th, 2004, 6:22 pm

Allowing ignoring some user(s) would help a lot... people could ignore me =)

- Miyo

Circon · Post by **Circon** » June 8th, 2004, 7:05 pm

Nooo, don't ignore miyo! Who would then post:

I don't like {IDEA}.

The arch-characteristic "miyo post" would be lost...

Dacyn · Post by **Dacyn** » June 9th, 2004, 10:54 am

Dave wrote:etc etc

I can't really tell what exactly this includes. Could you be more specific?

Dave wrote:Anything where developers and other people disagree on

Dave wrote:what something means

How do developers control the English language?

Dave wrote:Huh? We're talking about if developers and non-developers disagree on how to change the game -- then the developers get to choose how to change the game.

This is completely different from deciding the meaning of words. True, you can put anything into the game based on any logic or illogic, but that does not mean that your reasoning is logical, or that the words you are using mean what you say they mean.

Dave wrote:If, as is being discussed, developers and non-developers disagree on whether a particular change would follow the KISS principle, the developers get to decide whether it does or not

This is not obvious. If "KISS" was a principle, it would be false.

Post by **Dave** » June 9th, 2004, 12:57 pm

Dacyn,

If you seriously can't understand, I'm afraid I can't help you.

I'm done with this juvenile discussion.

David

Circon · Post by **Circon** » June 9th, 2004, 1:20 pm

Dacyn,
you're using "lawyerisms", and whether you're not understanding what Dave is saying, or refusing to understand, your arguments are flawed for reading too literally.

How do developers control the English language?

They don't. Deciding "what something means" means, for example, deciding what it is in the context of Wesnoth. For example, what does Goblin mean? Heaven knows there are quite enough definitions from different fantasy books, so *the* *developers* *decide* *what* *this* *means*. In this context.

This is not obvious. If "KISS" was a principle, it would be false.

Ditto. When one side is going "It's simpler to do X" and the other side is going "It's simpler to do Y", the developers decide.

So stop telling the developers off for making the decisions that push the project anywhere.

Dacyn · Post by **Dacyn** » June 9th, 2004, 1:46 pm

Circon wrote:you're using "lawyerisms", and whether you're not understanding what Dave is saying, or refusing to understand, your arguments are flawed for reading too literally.

huh? How does "reading too literally" mean that an argument is flawed? I don't understand...

Circon wrote:
How do developers control the English language?
They don't. Deciding "what something means" means, for example, deciding what it is in the context of Wesnoth. For example, what does Goblin mean? Heaven knows there are quite enough definitions from different fantasy books, so *the* *developers* *decide* *what* *this* *means*. In this context.

er, you mean they choose out of a number of possible definitions. They don't make the definitions. If they did, they would be inventing a new language.

Circon wrote:
This is not obvious. If "KISS" was a principle, it would be false.
Ditto. When one side is going "It's simpler to do X" and the other side is going "It's simpler to do Y", the developers decide.

What I am saying is that in other contexts then this would not actually affect whether it is simpler to do X or Y, only what is put into the game. However in this particular case, it does affect what is simple/unsimple, since "simple" is a relative term.

Circon wrote:So stop telling the developers off for making the decisions that push the project anywhere.

that is not the point of my posts. I am saying it needs to be more clear what "simple" means, since IMO "simple" is not a clear term at all.

Rothrorn · Post by **Rothrorn** » June 9th, 2004, 3:05 pm

Dacyn,

What is your problem?

Surely there are more important/relevant/less anal (delete as appropriate) things to discuss

Chill out

Dacyn · Post by **Dacyn** » June 9th, 2004, 5:32 pm

The reason I am talking about this is that I was trying to solve this problem:

Dave wrote:
turin wrote: It is not treated in these forums as such.
I have noticed.

I have mostly given up on quoting the KISS principle, since I think people now far far overuse it, and things end up in debates on what is or is not 'simple'. Other people will just say "well if you want the game to be simple and stupid, just remove all terrain modifiers and make everyone 50% to be hit on all terrain".

In fact it's gotten to the stage where I really don't know what to do anymore but just say "that (is|is not) going into the game because I'm the FDFL and i say so."

I don't really see what is wrong with my posts; the main problem seems to be that people don't like my logic.

Post by **turin** » June 9th, 2004, 5:40 pm

Dacyn wrote:I don't really see what is wrong with my posts; the main problem seems to be that people don't like my logic.

Actually, the main reason is that, while you may have a point, it is 1) basically irrelevant and 2) really annoying to people who try to read all of the forums (because they read your posts and they say 'what is this person talking about?')

MadMax · Post by **MadMax** » June 9th, 2004, 10:24 pm

Although I have to agree with turin, I still credit Dacyn on his suggestions about Konrad getting on the boat (in my scenario). He made sense that time.

miyo · Post by **miyo** » June 10th, 2004, 7:14 am

Dacyn wrote:er, you mean they choose out of a number of possible definitions. They don't make the definitions. If they did, they would be inventing a new language.

We can decide what Goblin is in Wesnoth, we can decide what Elves are in Wesnoth, we can make Orcs the smartest race in Wesnoth if we want to (benj would like that), we can decide that they invented crossbow in Wesnoth even that they never invented plain bow (we don't have to explain how it was done, this is Fantasy). We can decide what IIRWIIR means, we can decide what KISS means in Wesnoth development.

Dacyn wrote:that is not the point of my posts. I am saying it needs to be more clear what "simple" means, since IMO "simple" is not a clear term at all.

Simple is in the eye of beholder. For me using/installing GNU/Linux is simple, for someone else nothing except u$win is simple. As you see what is simple is definition that is not static.

Dacyn wrote:I don't really see what is wrong with my posts; the main problem seems to be that people don't like my logic.

Must everyone agree with your logic? Free Software, free as in freedom... freedom has many forms, freedom to not agree with your logic, freedom to have different point of view than yours, freedom to make decision that seem illogical to you, freedom to ignore you if I want. Freedom.

- Miyo

Dacyn · Post by **Dacyn** » June 10th, 2004, 11:14 am

miyo wrote:We can decide what Goblin is in Wesnoth, we can decide what Elves are in Wesnoth, we can make Orcs the smartest race in Wesnoth if we want to (benj would like that), we can decide that they invented crossbow in Wesnoth even that they never invented plain bow (we don't have to explain how it was done, this is Fantasy).

wait a minute; these are all terms that are being defined for inside Wesnoth; "simple" is hardly ever used inside Wesnoth, IIRC.

miyo wrote:We can decide what IIRWIIR means, we can decide what KISS means in Wesnoth development.

Those are acronyms; if you are claiming they are new words then I think you are insane.

miyo wrote:Simple is in the eye of beholder. For me using/installing GNU/Linux is simple, for someone else nothing except u$win is simple. As you see what is simple is definition that is not static.

This is what I have been saying... I have also been saying that the beholder in this case is Dave. It would be possible for it to not be Dave, for example to have Wesnoth try to be simple for everyone, but to still have Dave be the FDFL. I think many people think this is true, which is why they post things about "KISS" that cause Dave to stop referring to it.

miyo wrote:Must everyone agree with your logic? Free Software, free as in freedom... freedom has many forms, freedom to not agree with your logic, freedom to have different point of view than yours, freedom to make decision that seem illogical to you, freedom to ignore you if I want. Freedom.

yes, but (and this is the part people don't seem to get), that doesn't affect whether my logic is correct or not. I realize you will just end up ignoring me; that's exactly what I said.

Post by **turin** » June 10th, 2004, 2:24 pm

Dacyn wrote:
miyo wrote:We can decide what Goblin is in Wesnoth, we can decide what Elves are in Wesnoth, we can make Orcs the smartest race in Wesnoth if we want to (benj would like that), we can decide that they invented crossbow in Wesnoth even that they never invented plain bow (we don't have to explain how it was done, this is Fantasy).
wait a minute; these are all terms that are being defined for inside Wesnoth; "simple" is hardly ever used inside Wesnoth, IIRC.

Why does it matter where they are used?

Dacyn wrote:
miyo wrote:We can decide what IIRWIIR means, we can decide what KISS means in Wesnoth development.
Those are acronyms; if you are claiming they are new words then I think you are insane.

They may not be words, they are phrases, and phrases can have definitions too.

Dacyn wrote:
miyo wrote:Simple is in the eye of beholder. For me using/installing GNU/Linux is simple, for someone else nothing except u$win is simple. As you see what is simple is definition that is not static.
This is what I have been saying... I have also been saying that the beholder in this case is Dave. It would be possible for it to not be Dave, for example to have Wesnoth try to be simple for everyone, but to still have Dave be the FDFL. I think many people think this is true, which is why they post things about "KISS" that cause Dave to stop referring to it.

that is exactly what everyone has been saying... everyone just has a different way of phrasing it.

Dacyn wrote:
miyo wrote:Must everyone agree with your logic? Free Software, free as in freedom... freedom has many forms, freedom to not agree with your logic, freedom to have different point of view than yours, freedom to make decision that seem illogical to you, freedom to ignore you if I want. Freedom.
yes, but (and this is the part people don't seem to get), that doesn't affect whether my logic is correct or not.

Actually, your logic is not correct. Do you know why? Because you are talking about the subjective definition of a word, not the objective definition of a word. So no one can be right about it. It is opinion, not fact.

Dacyn wrote: I realize you will just end up ignoring me; that's exactly what I said.

Than why don't you just not give us your 'logic' at all?

Dacyn · Post by **Dacyn** » June 10th, 2004, 3:29 pm

turin wrote:Why does it matter where they are used?

Obviously the developers can control what something means in Wesnoth, since they control Wesnoth. However that does not mean they control the meanings of words in contexts pertaining to Wesnoth.

turin wrote:They may not be words, they are phrases, and phrases can have definitions too.

They are not phrases, either. They are acronyms for phrases. The developers do not control what the phrases mean, only which phrases the acronyms stand for.

I wrote:It would be possible for it to not be Dave, for example to have Wesnoth try to be simple for everyone, but to still have Dave be the FDFL.

turin wrote:that is exactly what everyone has been saying... everyone just has a different way of phrasing it.

so people agree with this? IIRC, Dave said that this was obviously impossible.

turin wrote:your logic is not correct. Do you know why? Because you are talking about the subjective definition of a word, not the objective definition of a word. So no one can be right about it. It is opinion, not fact.

And you are missing my point, which is that the objective definition of a word can refer to someone's subjective opinion. I am talking about creating an objective definition of "simple" by defining it in terms of an opinion. If we do not do this, then the word "simple" is subjective, and no one can ever be right about whether something is simple or not.