First Strike for Pikeman?

[miyo]

I am not sure if Spearman should have first strike.

Halberdier -> loses ranged attack and gets first strike.
Swordsman -> loses ranged attack but gets many "powerful" swings with his sword.

- Miyo

[turin]

I am not sure if Spearman should have first strike.

Halberdier -> loses ranged attack and gets first strike.
Swordsman -> loses ranged attack but gets many "powerful" swings with his sword.

- Miyo

Halberdier has just as powerful, if not more powerful, attacks as swordsmen. it goes 12-2 -> 14-4, or 6-4 -> 13-4. so saying swordsmen gain 'many powerful swings' doesn't make sense, since both sides get them.

maybe halberdier should be changed to 18-2? but then it would be too much like the grand knight...

[Dave]

I am not sure if Spearman should have first strike.

Well, I'm not completely sure they should either, but do look at Spearman vs Elvish Fighter without 1st strike for the Spearman. The only way the spearman is ever better is against units that are very weak against piercing attacks.

It's not like '1st strike' is a super-powerful ability. Just a kinda nice one to have.

David

[quartex]

First strike is weak enough that I don't think it is going to overpower a unit like the spearman, but we'll have to see it in practice.

[Darth Fool]

Skrimishing units should still hit first when attacking units with first strike.

[AT]

Um... why?

[Elvish_Pillager]

Probably if you can't stop someone from moving around near you, you can't hit it first either.

[turin]

Skrimishing units should still hit first when attacking units with first strike.

we are not starting the arms race.

really, i don't think we should have specialties that cancel out other specialties and specialties that are the same as others except they can't get overridden etc. each specialty should do one thing. all skirmishing can do is allow the unit to move freely between enemy ZoCs.

[Elvish_Pillager]

Right. Abilities that cancel other abilities should not exist unless those other abilities are very common. (Skirmisher cancels ZoC, for example.)

[Boucman]

ZOC is not an ability, it's a rule of the game

[Elvish_Pillager]

ZOC is not an ability, it's a rule of the game

Like I said. It's very common. Although there are some units that don't have it. Invisible units don't take away your moves when they ambush you, which is weird.[/b]

[Boucman]

it's still not an ability, ability in wesnoth have a very precise meaning, they are special rules that only apply to a given set of units, are named on the unit characteristics, and are set by the ability= line in the WML description of the unit

think of abilities as "special power"

ZOC is not a special power. not having a ZOC would be but AFAIK doesn't exist

[turin]

ZOC is not an ability, it's a rule of the game

Like I said. It's very common. Although there are some units that don't have it. Invisible units don't take away your moves when they ambush you, which is weird.[/b]

units that are invisible are not really units [1], they just have the potential to become units because they can be discovered. so its not they are units without ZoC, they are not units at all.


[1] they have none of the properties of units, ZoC, the enemy can see it, can be attacked, etc. so i think it makes sense to not consider them as units.

[Shundread]

You know... this "First Strike" abillity is something to make horsemen fear. Its not something "just to make spearmen more interesting". It DOES make sense.

The spear/pike/halberd are long weapons, plus pikes/spears are made for countering horsemen. Pikemen prepared for the horsemen's charges so they had a shot of knocking the horsemen off their horses before being struck by their lances. (since the pikes are big spears and all)

Whatever, it makes sense, and whenever I'm able to justify it without blabblering nonsense I'll post again here. >(

-Shundread

[Dacyn]

units that are invisible are not really units [1], they just have the potential to become units because they can be discovered.

They also have the potential to become units by being moved by their controller.

1] they have none of the properties of units, ZoC, the enemy can see it, can be attacked, etc. so i think it makes sense to not consider them as units.

I believe invisible units cost upkeep, which is a property of units.