First Strike for Pikeman?

Post by **turin** » June 2nd, 2004, 6:24 pm

Dacyn wrote:
turin wrote:units that are invisible are not really units [1], they just have the potential to become units because they can be discovered.
They also have the potential to become units by being moved by their controller.
turin wrote:1] they have none of the properties of units, ZoC, the enemy can see it, can be attacked, etc. so i think it makes sense to not consider them as units.
I believe invisible units cost upkeep, which is a property of units.

yes, they do cost upkeep. But i was talking more about things that the other player can do. So having a health amount, costing upkeep, traits, are not what i mean, because the enemy doesn't know this about them.

Dacyn · Post by **Dacyn** » June 2nd, 2004, 7:54 pm

turin wrote:So having a health amount, costing upkeep, traits, are not what i mean, because the enemy doesn't know this about them.

I believe the enemy knows all of these things exactly; the only unknown is the location of the unit.

Reasons invisible units are not units:
- they are invisible
- they do not have ZoC
Reasons they are units:
- they cost upkeep
- they can be used by the controller
- they were programmed with the intention of representing units
- (added) they show up on the status table
Any more?

Post by **Dave** » June 2nd, 2004, 7:57 pm

I'm afraid I don't understand this "invisible units are not really units" thing. It seems like alot of semantics that don't mean much to me. Among other things, on non-fog/shroud games, if you go to the status table, it will include invisible units in the count of enemy units.

David

Post by **turin** » June 2nd, 2004, 8:08 pm

Dave wrote:I'm afraid I don't understand this "invisible units are not really units" thing. It seems like alot of semantics that don't mean much to me. Among other things, on non-fog/shroud games, if you go to the status table, it will include invisible units in the count of enemy units.

David

it is.

But we were talking about Z0C being a rule, not an ability. It obviously is a rule. And, i think specialties can change rules somewhat.

Elvish_Pillager · Post by **Elvish_Pillager** » June 2nd, 2004, 8:12 pm

Ok, so I should have used a different word. How about "Effect"? It isn't a Wesnothian technical term.

...yet

Post by **turin** » June 2nd, 2004, 8:13 pm

Elvish Pillager wrote:Ok, so I should have used a different word. How about "Effect"? It isn't a Wesnothian technical term.

...yet

Rule.

really, its a rule. its not a specialty, or an effect. a rule. that doesn't mean specialties can't cancel it, though. And, since this discussion seems pointless, can we stop?

Elvish_Pillager · Post by **Elvish_Pillager** » June 2nd, 2004, 8:26 pm

And now that we've stopped arguing, can someone implement First Strike? There wasn't really any objection, after all.

Post by **turin** » June 2nd, 2004, 8:33 pm

Elvish Pillager wrote:And now that we've stopped arguing, can someone implement First Strike? There wasn't really any objection, after all.

It already has been implemented, IIRC.

miyo · Post by **miyo** » June 2nd, 2004, 8:36 pm

Elvish Pillager,

http://changelog.wesnoth.org

- Miyo

SteelP · Post by **SteelP** » June 6th, 2004, 7:13 pm

Pikeman should have first strike, but not against heavy cavalry... Heavy cavalry carried even longer pikes so they hit the infantry first (as they were used as shock troops to break the enemy lines)... has someone read about middle ages cavalry tournaments?

I hope I'm not repeating anything said earlier...

Dacyn · Post by **Dacyn** » June 6th, 2004, 7:21 pm

SteelP wrote:Pikeman should have first strike, but not against heavy cavalry... Heavy cavalry carried even longer pikes so they hit the infantry first (as they were used as shock troops to break the enemy lines)... has someone read about middle ages cavalry tournaments?

No. There is no reason to have exceptions to a specialty for the sake of realism; this is a princple of the Wesnoth philosophy.

SteelP wrote:I hope I'm not repeating anything said earlier...

Don't worry; no one else here umm... thinks like you.

Post by **Dave** » June 6th, 2004, 7:22 pm

SteelP wrote:Pikeman should have first strike, but not against heavy cavalry... Heavy cavalry carried even longer pikes so they hit the infantry first (as they were used as shock troops to break the enemy lines)... has someone read about middle ages cavalry tournaments?

(1) there are no 'heavy cavalry' units in Wesnoth
(2) we have simple abilities, none of these arms races or 'abilities against unit A but not unit B'
(3) we really don't care that much about historical accuracy.

David

Post by **turin** » June 6th, 2004, 7:31 pm

Dave wrote:(3) we really don't care that much about historical accuracy.

David

It would make no senes to care at all about it, unless we want to get rid of all non-human units, and get rid of all magic-using units, etc...

Post by **Dave** » June 6th, 2004, 7:39 pm

turin wrote:
Dave wrote:(3) we really don't care that much about historical accuracy.

David
It would make no senes to care at all about it, unless we want to get rid of all non-human units, and get rid of all magic-using units, etc...

Well we clearly care about it somewhat, with people talking about whether steel would have been around to be used by fencers, and what certain units would have historically been called etc etc.

David

Post by **Darth Fool** » June 6th, 2004, 7:53 pm

SteelP wrote:Pikeman should have first strike, but not against heavy cavalry... Heavy cavalry carried even longer pikes so they hit the infantry first (as they were used as shock troops to break the enemy lines)... has someone read about middle ages cavalry tournaments?

I hope I'm not repeating anything said earlier...

This is not historically accurate. Infantry could always carry longer pikes than horseman could carry lances.