Reducing the Power of 3rd level units
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At 1st try changing half of that values... like -3%hp, -10%dam,-5%dam and recheck the balance...level 3 units should have their hitpoints reduced by around 5% each.
level 3 units should have their attack strength reduced by around 25% each.
level 2 units should have their attack strength reduced by around 15% each.
Keep in mind that some units (mostly the ones I added lately) are alredy less powerfull than normal ones. I tried to create the units as weaker as I can to advoid unbalance and strength them if needed... so if they suddenly get downgraded you could end with too wimpy units (all bandits, shadows and nightgaunts in mind..)
Most of higher level units need downgrading. What could be done is downgrading "all units" and skipping those that are possibly already "weaker"
One way to balance is reduce hitpoints "heavily" and attack power only little. This way higher level units become easier to die, while remaining powerful.
- Miyo
One way to balance is reduce hitpoints "heavily" and attack power only little. This way higher level units become easier to die, while remaining powerful.
- Miyo
Sorry Miyo,
I don't like the reducing HP heavily option - I think the 'lynchpin' use of high level units is important, you sometimes need a unit that can take point and really take some damage in order to regroup an army or press an attack (especially in constricted terrain). I'm all for reducing the damage a bit (although of course this might actually make you less vulnerable to the wave of zombies attack!) so that they don't counter-attack the attacking army to bits (but the attack AI is improving now so that this is less likely to happen, you can shelter behind a hero unit and rearrange your forces behind - I like this and it feel like the right thing for the big units to do on the battlefield - perhaps HP should be boosted, but attacks cut quite a lot for the 'leadership' units to promote their use holding the middle of a line? (or they could get a small resistance to certain attacks?).
Reducing attacks also gives the player more chance to actually let the low levels units get the killing blows and will likely make it easier in many case to level up first level units in later campaign scenarios (something that everyone has to do to replace loses and keep a good balance of units available for different scenarios and circumstances).
I don't like the reducing HP heavily option - I think the 'lynchpin' use of high level units is important, you sometimes need a unit that can take point and really take some damage in order to regroup an army or press an attack (especially in constricted terrain). I'm all for reducing the damage a bit (although of course this might actually make you less vulnerable to the wave of zombies attack!) so that they don't counter-attack the attacking army to bits (but the attack AI is improving now so that this is less likely to happen, you can shelter behind a hero unit and rearrange your forces behind - I like this and it feel like the right thing for the big units to do on the battlefield - perhaps HP should be boosted, but attacks cut quite a lot for the 'leadership' units to promote their use holding the middle of a line? (or they could get a small resistance to certain attacks?).
Reducing attacks also gives the player more chance to actually let the low levels units get the killing blows and will likely make it easier in many case to level up first level units in later campaign scenarios (something that everyone has to do to replace loses and keep a good balance of units available for different scenarios and circumstances).
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Neoriceisgood
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nerfing
I've never actaully had trouble with overpowered LVL3s. In terms of stats, they look slightly over powered, but I think its because you are plotting the wrong things.
My arguments against any change are threefold.
1: In actual gameplay, they don't seem imbalanced. In Wesbowl, I once got a LVL 3 Shock Trooper. While he can smash his way through scouts quite easily, it only took 3 mages to wound him enough that i had to run away.
In the Campaign, I got frustrated on CrossRoads, and cheated myself a few LVL3 Archers and Fighters. I'm now a few maps farther, and most of them are dead. I was lax in defending them, but not unreasonably so.
2: There are more important (and less contravertial) changes. It seems to me that the Default Orcs, Undead, and Dwarves are massively incompete compared to everyone's favorite Elves and Humans. This is my pet peeve (sorry) but I really think balancing all the races is more imporatant that nerfing units that people never see in multiplayer. ( I play mainly MP, can you tell?).
3. From a scientific standpoint, you're simply ploting the wrong data sets. You need to look at Damage VS. Total XP. If you spend alot of time making a unit expirenced, then it should be worth the trouble.
My arguments against any change are threefold.
1: In actual gameplay, they don't seem imbalanced. In Wesbowl, I once got a LVL 3 Shock Trooper. While he can smash his way through scouts quite easily, it only took 3 mages to wound him enough that i had to run away.
In the Campaign, I got frustrated on CrossRoads, and cheated myself a few LVL3 Archers and Fighters. I'm now a few maps farther, and most of them are dead. I was lax in defending them, but not unreasonably so.
2: There are more important (and less contravertial) changes. It seems to me that the Default Orcs, Undead, and Dwarves are massively incompete compared to everyone's favorite Elves and Humans. This is my pet peeve (sorry) but I really think balancing all the races is more imporatant that nerfing units that people never see in multiplayer. ( I play mainly MP, can you tell?).
3. From a scientific standpoint, you're simply ploting the wrong data sets. You need to look at Damage VS. Total XP. If you spend alot of time making a unit expirenced, then it should be worth the trouble.
Gandalf-"I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the Flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun. Go back to the Shadow. You cannot pass!"
AT- "That sounds like more trouble than it's worth."
AT- "That sounds like more trouble than it's worth."
I ran an analysis of the amount of power increase and amount of hp increase for all possible upgrades in the game. Here are the results, sorted by the raw power increase.
Note how for almost all units, power increases by a higher % than hitpoints
Orcish Warrior (level 2) hp: 52 power: 30 -> Orcish Warlord hp: 80 power: 60 (power +100%) (hp +53.8462%)
Elvish Hero (level 2) hp: 48 power: 32 -> Elvish Champion hp: 70 power: 60 (power +87.5%) (hp +45.8333%)
Pikeman (level 2) hp: 52 power: 28 -> Halbardier hp: 72 power: 56 (power +100%) (hp +38.4615%)
Commander (level 2) hp: 45 power: 32 -> Lord hp: 68 power: 56 (power +75%) (hp +51.1111%)
Red Mage (level 2) hp: 42 power: 32 -> Arch Mage hp: 62 power: 56 (power +75%) (hp +47.619%)
Noble Commander (level 2) hp: 45 power: 32 -> Noble Lord hp: 68 power: 56 (power +75%) (hp +51.1111%)
peasant (level 1) hp: 28 power: 6 -> Outlaw hp: 48 power: 28 (power +366.667%) (hp +71.4286%)
maiden (level 1) hp: 28 power: 6 -> Outlaw hp: 48 power: 28 (power +366.667%) (hp +71.4286%)
Elvish Ranger (level 2) hp: 42 power: 28 -> Elvish Avenger hp: 60 power: 50 (power +78.5714%) (hp +42.8571%)
Initiate (level 1) hp: 36 power: 18 -> Deathmaster hp: 60 power: 39 (power +116.667%) (hp +66.6667%)
Footpad (level 1) hp: 28 power: 8 -> Outlaw hp: 48 power: 28 (power +250%) (hp +71.4286%)
Ghost (level 1) hp: 30 power: 12 -> Shadow hp: 44 power: 32 (power +166.667%) (hp +46.6667%)
Elvish Captain (level 2) hp: 44 power: 28 -> Elvish Marshal hp: 62 power: 48 (power +71.4286%) (hp +40.9091%)
Swordsman (level 2) hp: 52 power: 32 -> Royal Guard hp: 75 power: 52 (power +62.5%) (hp +44.2308%)
Demilich (level 3) hp: 80 power: 56 -> Ancient Lich hp: 88 power: 75 (power +33.9286%) (hp +10%)
Lieutenant (level 2) hp: 48 power: 18 -> General hp: 58 power: 36 (power +100%) (hp +20.8333%)
Dwarvish Steelclad (level 2) hp: 50 power: 33 -> Dwarvish Lord hp: 75 power: 51 (power +54.5455%) (hp +50%)
Deathmaster (level 2) hp: 60 power: 39 -> Demilich hp: 80 power: 56 (power +43.5897%) (hp +33.3333%)
Knight (level 2) hp: 58 power: 32 -> Grand Knight hp: 78 power: 48 (power +50%) (hp +34.4828%)
Heavy Infantryman (level 1) hp: 38 power: 24 -> Shock Trooper hp: 52 power: 40 (power +66.6667%) (hp +36.8421%)
Heavy Infantry (level 1) hp: 38 power: 24 -> Shock Trooper hp: 52 power: 40 (power +66.6667%) (hp +36.8421%)
Ghost (level 1) hp: 30 power: 12 -> Wraith hp: 40 power: 28 (power +133.333%) (hp +33.3333%)
Arch Mage (level 3) hp: 62 power: 56 -> Great Mage hp: 75 power: 72 (power +28.5714%) (hp +20.9677%)
Elvish Archer (level 1) hp: 29 power: 20 -> Elvish Marksman hp: 37 power: 36 (power +80%) (hp +27.5862%)
Orcish Assassin (level 1) hp: 26 power: 9 -> Orcish Slayer hp: 36 power: 24 (power +166.667%) (hp +38.4615%)
Noble Fighter (level 1) hp: 32 power: 18 -> Noble Commander hp: 45 power: 32 (power +77.7778%) (hp +40.625%)
Merman (level 1) hp: 30 power: 16 -> Triton hp: 40 power: 30 (power +87.5%) (hp +33.3333%)
Longbowman (level 2) hp: 45 power: 30 -> Master Bowman hp: 46 power: 44 (power +46.6667%) (hp +2.22222%)
Horseman (level 1) hp: 38 power: 18 -> Knight hp: 58 power: 32 (power +77.7778%) (hp +52.6316%)
Troll Whelp (level 1) hp: 42 power: 14 -> Troll hp: 55 power: 28 (power +100%) (hp +30.9524%)
Elvish Marksman (level 2) hp: 37 power: 36 -> Elvish Sharpshooter hp: 45 power: 50 (power +38.8889%) (hp +21.6216%)
Fighter (level 1) hp: 32 power: 18 -> Commander hp: 45 power: 32 (power +77.7778%) (hp +40.625%)
Cavalry (level 1) hp: 38 power: 15 -> Dragoon hp: 58 power: 28 (power +86.6667%) (hp +52.6316%)
Wolf Rider (level 1) hp: 32 power: 15 -> Goblin Knight hp: 45 power: 28 (power +86.6667%) (hp +40.625%)
Scout (level 1) hp: 38 power: 15 -> Dragoon hp: 58 power: 28 (power +86.6667%) (hp +52.6316%)
White Mage (level 2) hp: 32 power: 32 -> Mage of Light hp: 42 power: 44 (power +37.5%) (hp +31.25%)
Troll (level 2) hp: 55 power: 28 -> Troll Warrior hp: 70 power: 40 (power +42.8571%) (hp +27.2727%)
Dragoon (level 2) hp: 58 power: 28 -> Cavalier hp: 68 power: 40 (power +42.8571%) (hp +17.2414%)
Orcish Grunt (level 1) hp: 38 power: 18 -> Orcish Warrior hp: 52 power: 30 (power +66.6667%) (hp +36.8421%)
Wose (level 2) hp: 60 power: 28 -> Ancient Wose hp: 80 power: 40 (power +42.8571%) (hp +33.3333%)
Noble Youth (level 0) hp: 20 power: 6 -> Noble Fighter hp: 32 power: 18 (power +200%) (hp +60%)
Youth (level 0) hp: 20 power: 6 -> Fighter hp: 32 power: 18 (power +200%) (hp +60%)
Bowman (level 1) hp: 33 power: 18 -> Longbowman hp: 45 power: 30 (power +66.6667%) (hp +36.3636%)
Necromancer (level 2) hp: 58 power: 24 -> Lich hp: 66 power: 36 (power +50%) (hp +13.7931%)
Elvish Shaman (level 1) hp: 26 power: 6 -> Elvish Druid hp: 36 power: 18 (power +200%) (hp +38.4615%)
Elvish Fighter (level 1) hp: 32 power: 20 -> Elvish Hero hp: 48 power: 32 (power +60%) (hp +50%)
Goblin Knight (level 2) hp: 45 power: 28 -> Goblin Direwolver hp: 55 power: 40 (power +42.8571%) (hp +22.2222%)
Mage (level 1) hp: 24 power: 21 -> Red Mage hp: 42 power: 32 (power +52.381%) (hp +75%)
Mage (level 1) hp: 24 power: 21 -> White Mage hp: 32 power: 32 (power +52.381%) (hp +33.3333%)
Spearman (level 1) hp: 36 power: 21 -> Swordsman hp: 52 power: 32 (power +52.381%) (hp +44.4444%)
Soldier (level 1) hp: 36 power: 21 -> Swordsman hp: 52 power: 32 (power +52.381%) (hp +44.4444%)
Skeleton (level 1) hp: 30 power: 21 -> Revenant hp: 40 power: 32 (power +52.381%) (hp +33.3333%)
Wose Sapling (level 1) hp: 44 power: 18 -> Wose hp: 60 power: 28 (power +55.5556%) (hp +36.3636%)
Dwarvish Thunderer (level 1) hp: 34 power: 18 -> Dwarvish Thunderguard hp: 42 power: 28 (power +55.5556%) (hp +23.5294%)
Vampire Bat (level 0) hp: 16 power: 8 -> Blood Bat hp: 26 power: 18 (power +125%) (hp +62.5%)
Fencer (level 1) hp: 28 power: 16 -> Duelist hp: 44 power: 25 (power +56.25%) (hp +57.1429%)
Skeleton Archer (level 1) hp: 30 power: 12 -> Bone Shooter hp: 40 power: 21 (power +75%) (hp +33.3333%)
Rogue (level 2) hp: 36 power: 15 -> Assassin hp: 42 power: 24 (power +60%) (hp +16.6667%)
Orcish Archer (level 1) hp: 32 power: 15 -> Orcish Crossbow hp: 43 power: 24 (power +60%) (hp +34.375%)
Dwarvish Fighter (level 1) hp: 36 power: 24 -> Dwarvish Steelclad hp: 50 power: 33 (power +37.5%) (hp +38.8889%)
Elvish Scout (level 1) hp: 32 power: 12 -> Elvish Rider hp: 42 power: 20 (power +66.6667%) (hp +31.25%)
Wraith (level 2) hp: 40 power: 28 -> Spectre hp: 52 power: 36 (power +28.5714%) (hp +30%)
Outlaw Princess (level 2) hp: 48 power: 28 -> Outlaw Queen hp: 51 power: 36 (power +28.5714%) (hp +6.25%)
Elvish Fighter (level 1) hp: 32 power: 20 -> Elvish Captain hp: 44 power: 28 (power +40%) (hp +37.5%)
Thug (level 1) hp: 36 power: 20 -> Bandit hp: 50 power: 28 (power +40%) (hp +38.8889%)
Elvish Archer (level 1) hp: 29 power: 20 -> Elvish Ranger hp: 42 power: 28 (power +40%) (hp +44.8276%)
Poacher (level 1) hp: 32 power: 16 -> Trapper hp: 45 power: 24 (power +50%) (hp +40.625%)
Saurian (level 1) hp: 22 power: 16 -> Saurian Warrior hp: 32 power: 24 (power +50%) (hp +45.4545%)
Princess (level 2) hp: 48 power: 52 -> Battle Princess hp: 52 power: 60 (power +15.3846%) (hp +8.33333%)
Dark Adept (level 1) hp: 28 power: 16 -> Necromancer hp: 58 power: 24 (power +50%) (hp +107.143%)
Shock Trooper (level 2) hp: 52 power: 40 -> Iron Mauler hp: 64 power: 48 (power +20%) (hp +23.0769%)
Shadow (level 2) hp: 44 power: 32 -> Nightgaunt hp: 60 power: 40 (power +25%) (hp +36.3636%)
Knight (level 2) hp: 58 power: 32 -> Paladin hp: 65 power: 40 (power +25%) (hp +12.069%)
Soldier (level 1) hp: 36 power: 21 -> Pikeman hp: 52 power: 28 (power +33.3333%) (hp +44.4444%)
Spearman (level 1) hp: 36 power: 21 -> Pikeman hp: 52 power: 28 (power +33.3333%) (hp +44.4444%)
Naga (level 1) hp: 27 power: 15 -> Sea Hag hp: 37 power: 21 (power +40%) (hp +37.037%)
Wolf Rider (level 1) hp: 32 power: 15 -> Goblin Pillager hp: 40 power: 21 (power +40%) (hp +25%)
Ghoul (level 1) hp: 38 power: 15 -> Necrophage hp: 52 power: 21 (power +40%) (hp +36.8421%)
Walking Corpse (level 0) hp: 16 power: 6 -> Soulless hp: 26 power: 12 (power +100%) (hp +62.5%)
Elvish Rider (level 2) hp: 42 power: 20 -> Elvish Outrider hp: 50 power: 24 (power +20%) (hp +19.0476%)
Dwarvish Fighter (level 1) hp: 36 power: 24 -> Dwarvish Berserker hp: 48 power: 28 (power +16.6667%) (hp +33.3333%)
Red Mage (level 2) hp: 42 power: 32 -> Silver Mage hp: 48 power: 36 (power +12.5%) (hp +14.2857%)
Thief (level 1) hp: 24 power: 12 -> Rogue hp: 36 power: 15 (power +25%) (hp +50%)
Elvish Druid (level 2) hp: 36 power: 18 -> Elvish Shyde hp: 46 power: 21 (power +16.6667%) (hp +27.7778%)
Necrophage (level 2) hp: 52 power: 21 -> Necrophage hp: 52 power: 21 (power +0%) (hp +0%)
Note how for almost all units, power increases by a higher % than hitpoints
Orcish Warrior (level 2) hp: 52 power: 30 -> Orcish Warlord hp: 80 power: 60 (power +100%) (hp +53.8462%)
Elvish Hero (level 2) hp: 48 power: 32 -> Elvish Champion hp: 70 power: 60 (power +87.5%) (hp +45.8333%)
Pikeman (level 2) hp: 52 power: 28 -> Halbardier hp: 72 power: 56 (power +100%) (hp +38.4615%)
Commander (level 2) hp: 45 power: 32 -> Lord hp: 68 power: 56 (power +75%) (hp +51.1111%)
Red Mage (level 2) hp: 42 power: 32 -> Arch Mage hp: 62 power: 56 (power +75%) (hp +47.619%)
Noble Commander (level 2) hp: 45 power: 32 -> Noble Lord hp: 68 power: 56 (power +75%) (hp +51.1111%)
peasant (level 1) hp: 28 power: 6 -> Outlaw hp: 48 power: 28 (power +366.667%) (hp +71.4286%)
maiden (level 1) hp: 28 power: 6 -> Outlaw hp: 48 power: 28 (power +366.667%) (hp +71.4286%)
Elvish Ranger (level 2) hp: 42 power: 28 -> Elvish Avenger hp: 60 power: 50 (power +78.5714%) (hp +42.8571%)
Initiate (level 1) hp: 36 power: 18 -> Deathmaster hp: 60 power: 39 (power +116.667%) (hp +66.6667%)
Footpad (level 1) hp: 28 power: 8 -> Outlaw hp: 48 power: 28 (power +250%) (hp +71.4286%)
Ghost (level 1) hp: 30 power: 12 -> Shadow hp: 44 power: 32 (power +166.667%) (hp +46.6667%)
Elvish Captain (level 2) hp: 44 power: 28 -> Elvish Marshal hp: 62 power: 48 (power +71.4286%) (hp +40.9091%)
Swordsman (level 2) hp: 52 power: 32 -> Royal Guard hp: 75 power: 52 (power +62.5%) (hp +44.2308%)
Demilich (level 3) hp: 80 power: 56 -> Ancient Lich hp: 88 power: 75 (power +33.9286%) (hp +10%)
Lieutenant (level 2) hp: 48 power: 18 -> General hp: 58 power: 36 (power +100%) (hp +20.8333%)
Dwarvish Steelclad (level 2) hp: 50 power: 33 -> Dwarvish Lord hp: 75 power: 51 (power +54.5455%) (hp +50%)
Deathmaster (level 2) hp: 60 power: 39 -> Demilich hp: 80 power: 56 (power +43.5897%) (hp +33.3333%)
Knight (level 2) hp: 58 power: 32 -> Grand Knight hp: 78 power: 48 (power +50%) (hp +34.4828%)
Heavy Infantryman (level 1) hp: 38 power: 24 -> Shock Trooper hp: 52 power: 40 (power +66.6667%) (hp +36.8421%)
Heavy Infantry (level 1) hp: 38 power: 24 -> Shock Trooper hp: 52 power: 40 (power +66.6667%) (hp +36.8421%)
Ghost (level 1) hp: 30 power: 12 -> Wraith hp: 40 power: 28 (power +133.333%) (hp +33.3333%)
Arch Mage (level 3) hp: 62 power: 56 -> Great Mage hp: 75 power: 72 (power +28.5714%) (hp +20.9677%)
Elvish Archer (level 1) hp: 29 power: 20 -> Elvish Marksman hp: 37 power: 36 (power +80%) (hp +27.5862%)
Orcish Assassin (level 1) hp: 26 power: 9 -> Orcish Slayer hp: 36 power: 24 (power +166.667%) (hp +38.4615%)
Noble Fighter (level 1) hp: 32 power: 18 -> Noble Commander hp: 45 power: 32 (power +77.7778%) (hp +40.625%)
Merman (level 1) hp: 30 power: 16 -> Triton hp: 40 power: 30 (power +87.5%) (hp +33.3333%)
Longbowman (level 2) hp: 45 power: 30 -> Master Bowman hp: 46 power: 44 (power +46.6667%) (hp +2.22222%)
Horseman (level 1) hp: 38 power: 18 -> Knight hp: 58 power: 32 (power +77.7778%) (hp +52.6316%)
Troll Whelp (level 1) hp: 42 power: 14 -> Troll hp: 55 power: 28 (power +100%) (hp +30.9524%)
Elvish Marksman (level 2) hp: 37 power: 36 -> Elvish Sharpshooter hp: 45 power: 50 (power +38.8889%) (hp +21.6216%)
Fighter (level 1) hp: 32 power: 18 -> Commander hp: 45 power: 32 (power +77.7778%) (hp +40.625%)
Cavalry (level 1) hp: 38 power: 15 -> Dragoon hp: 58 power: 28 (power +86.6667%) (hp +52.6316%)
Wolf Rider (level 1) hp: 32 power: 15 -> Goblin Knight hp: 45 power: 28 (power +86.6667%) (hp +40.625%)
Scout (level 1) hp: 38 power: 15 -> Dragoon hp: 58 power: 28 (power +86.6667%) (hp +52.6316%)
White Mage (level 2) hp: 32 power: 32 -> Mage of Light hp: 42 power: 44 (power +37.5%) (hp +31.25%)
Troll (level 2) hp: 55 power: 28 -> Troll Warrior hp: 70 power: 40 (power +42.8571%) (hp +27.2727%)
Dragoon (level 2) hp: 58 power: 28 -> Cavalier hp: 68 power: 40 (power +42.8571%) (hp +17.2414%)
Orcish Grunt (level 1) hp: 38 power: 18 -> Orcish Warrior hp: 52 power: 30 (power +66.6667%) (hp +36.8421%)
Wose (level 2) hp: 60 power: 28 -> Ancient Wose hp: 80 power: 40 (power +42.8571%) (hp +33.3333%)
Noble Youth (level 0) hp: 20 power: 6 -> Noble Fighter hp: 32 power: 18 (power +200%) (hp +60%)
Youth (level 0) hp: 20 power: 6 -> Fighter hp: 32 power: 18 (power +200%) (hp +60%)
Bowman (level 1) hp: 33 power: 18 -> Longbowman hp: 45 power: 30 (power +66.6667%) (hp +36.3636%)
Necromancer (level 2) hp: 58 power: 24 -> Lich hp: 66 power: 36 (power +50%) (hp +13.7931%)
Elvish Shaman (level 1) hp: 26 power: 6 -> Elvish Druid hp: 36 power: 18 (power +200%) (hp +38.4615%)
Elvish Fighter (level 1) hp: 32 power: 20 -> Elvish Hero hp: 48 power: 32 (power +60%) (hp +50%)
Goblin Knight (level 2) hp: 45 power: 28 -> Goblin Direwolver hp: 55 power: 40 (power +42.8571%) (hp +22.2222%)
Mage (level 1) hp: 24 power: 21 -> Red Mage hp: 42 power: 32 (power +52.381%) (hp +75%)
Mage (level 1) hp: 24 power: 21 -> White Mage hp: 32 power: 32 (power +52.381%) (hp +33.3333%)
Spearman (level 1) hp: 36 power: 21 -> Swordsman hp: 52 power: 32 (power +52.381%) (hp +44.4444%)
Soldier (level 1) hp: 36 power: 21 -> Swordsman hp: 52 power: 32 (power +52.381%) (hp +44.4444%)
Skeleton (level 1) hp: 30 power: 21 -> Revenant hp: 40 power: 32 (power +52.381%) (hp +33.3333%)
Wose Sapling (level 1) hp: 44 power: 18 -> Wose hp: 60 power: 28 (power +55.5556%) (hp +36.3636%)
Dwarvish Thunderer (level 1) hp: 34 power: 18 -> Dwarvish Thunderguard hp: 42 power: 28 (power +55.5556%) (hp +23.5294%)
Vampire Bat (level 0) hp: 16 power: 8 -> Blood Bat hp: 26 power: 18 (power +125%) (hp +62.5%)
Fencer (level 1) hp: 28 power: 16 -> Duelist hp: 44 power: 25 (power +56.25%) (hp +57.1429%)
Skeleton Archer (level 1) hp: 30 power: 12 -> Bone Shooter hp: 40 power: 21 (power +75%) (hp +33.3333%)
Rogue (level 2) hp: 36 power: 15 -> Assassin hp: 42 power: 24 (power +60%) (hp +16.6667%)
Orcish Archer (level 1) hp: 32 power: 15 -> Orcish Crossbow hp: 43 power: 24 (power +60%) (hp +34.375%)
Dwarvish Fighter (level 1) hp: 36 power: 24 -> Dwarvish Steelclad hp: 50 power: 33 (power +37.5%) (hp +38.8889%)
Elvish Scout (level 1) hp: 32 power: 12 -> Elvish Rider hp: 42 power: 20 (power +66.6667%) (hp +31.25%)
Wraith (level 2) hp: 40 power: 28 -> Spectre hp: 52 power: 36 (power +28.5714%) (hp +30%)
Outlaw Princess (level 2) hp: 48 power: 28 -> Outlaw Queen hp: 51 power: 36 (power +28.5714%) (hp +6.25%)
Elvish Fighter (level 1) hp: 32 power: 20 -> Elvish Captain hp: 44 power: 28 (power +40%) (hp +37.5%)
Thug (level 1) hp: 36 power: 20 -> Bandit hp: 50 power: 28 (power +40%) (hp +38.8889%)
Elvish Archer (level 1) hp: 29 power: 20 -> Elvish Ranger hp: 42 power: 28 (power +40%) (hp +44.8276%)
Poacher (level 1) hp: 32 power: 16 -> Trapper hp: 45 power: 24 (power +50%) (hp +40.625%)
Saurian (level 1) hp: 22 power: 16 -> Saurian Warrior hp: 32 power: 24 (power +50%) (hp +45.4545%)
Princess (level 2) hp: 48 power: 52 -> Battle Princess hp: 52 power: 60 (power +15.3846%) (hp +8.33333%)
Dark Adept (level 1) hp: 28 power: 16 -> Necromancer hp: 58 power: 24 (power +50%) (hp +107.143%)
Shock Trooper (level 2) hp: 52 power: 40 -> Iron Mauler hp: 64 power: 48 (power +20%) (hp +23.0769%)
Shadow (level 2) hp: 44 power: 32 -> Nightgaunt hp: 60 power: 40 (power +25%) (hp +36.3636%)
Knight (level 2) hp: 58 power: 32 -> Paladin hp: 65 power: 40 (power +25%) (hp +12.069%)
Soldier (level 1) hp: 36 power: 21 -> Pikeman hp: 52 power: 28 (power +33.3333%) (hp +44.4444%)
Spearman (level 1) hp: 36 power: 21 -> Pikeman hp: 52 power: 28 (power +33.3333%) (hp +44.4444%)
Naga (level 1) hp: 27 power: 15 -> Sea Hag hp: 37 power: 21 (power +40%) (hp +37.037%)
Wolf Rider (level 1) hp: 32 power: 15 -> Goblin Pillager hp: 40 power: 21 (power +40%) (hp +25%)
Ghoul (level 1) hp: 38 power: 15 -> Necrophage hp: 52 power: 21 (power +40%) (hp +36.8421%)
Walking Corpse (level 0) hp: 16 power: 6 -> Soulless hp: 26 power: 12 (power +100%) (hp +62.5%)
Elvish Rider (level 2) hp: 42 power: 20 -> Elvish Outrider hp: 50 power: 24 (power +20%) (hp +19.0476%)
Dwarvish Fighter (level 1) hp: 36 power: 24 -> Dwarvish Berserker hp: 48 power: 28 (power +16.6667%) (hp +33.3333%)
Red Mage (level 2) hp: 42 power: 32 -> Silver Mage hp: 48 power: 36 (power +12.5%) (hp +14.2857%)
Thief (level 1) hp: 24 power: 12 -> Rogue hp: 36 power: 15 (power +25%) (hp +50%)
Elvish Druid (level 2) hp: 36 power: 18 -> Elvish Shyde hp: 46 power: 21 (power +16.6667%) (hp +27.7778%)
Necrophage (level 2) hp: 52 power: 21 -> Necrophage hp: 52 power: 21 (power +0%) (hp +0%)
“At Gambling, the deadly sin is to mistake bad play for bad luck.” -- Ian Fleming
but
But if you do check XP vs. Damage, and it is really a high ratio, then I wouldn't object if it was done on a unit by unit basis; I'd even volenteer to help.
EDIT: (Responce to above Dave post): Wow, that is pretty dramatic, but I'm still skeptical. What about the XP to Damage ratio?
Perhaps lowering damage slightly wouldn't be bad, but lowering HP could make them underpowered, i think.
EDIT: (Responce to above Dave post): Wow, that is pretty dramatic, but I'm still skeptical. What about the XP to Damage ratio?
Perhaps lowering damage slightly wouldn't be bad, but lowering HP could make them underpowered, i think.
Re: nerfing
It depends on the unit, and their weaknesses. We're arguing that the attack power of 3rd level units is too high, not their hitpoints. Since the shock trooper was being attacked from range, when they don't even have a ranged attack, his attack power wouldn't even come into play.AT wrote: 1: In actual gameplay, they don't seem imbalanced. In Wesbowl, I once got a LVL 3 Shock Trooper. While he can smash his way through scouts quite easily, it only took 3 mages to wound him enough that i had to run away.
However there is a valid point here that attack powers are mitigated by the allowance that high level units can be attacked using short/ranged attacks they are not well-suited to defending.
The game's original and still primary mode of play is single player, campaign. If you like multiplayer, you are welcome to make contributions in that area, but the developers are most committed to the campaigns, and we will not avoid making improvements to the campaigns until we make players of multiplayer happy.AT wrote: 2: There are more important (and less contravertial) changes. It seems to me that the Default Orcs, Undead, and Dwarves are massively incompete compared to everyone's favorite Elves and Humans. This is my pet peeve (sorry) but I really think balancing all the races is more imporatant that nerfing units that people never see in multiplayer. ( I play mainly MP, can you tell?).
Sure, XP comes into it too. One can expect an upgraded mage to be reasonably powerful, considering the XP it requires to upgrade.AT wrote: 3. From a scientific standpoint, you're simply ploting the wrong data sets. You need to look at Damage VS. Total XP. If you spend alot of time making a unit expirenced, then it should be worth the trouble.
However, once a unit gets to 2nd level currently, it is fairly inevitable that so long as it survives, it will acquire quite alot of experience. Levelling 2nd level units into 3rd level units really isn't that hard, even if they require more experience.
Furthermore, the main problem at the moment that has been pointed out is that the power increases are disproportionate: units acquire excessive attack power compared to their hp increases.
David
“At Gambling, the deadly sin is to mistake bad play for bad luck.” -- Ian Fleming
Purely for comparitive purposes, I refer people to the Master of Monsters unit stats tables: http://wolff.to/bruno/mom.html
Note that 1st level units typically have lower attack powers than in Wesnoth, but they also upgrade their attack power much less dramatically, though hp are typically higher than in Wesnoth.
David
Note that 1st level units typically have lower attack powers than in Wesnoth, but they also upgrade their attack power much less dramatically, though hp are typically higher than in Wesnoth.
David
“At Gambling, the deadly sin is to mistake bad play for bad luck.” -- Ian Fleming
Re: nerfing
Doesn't not considering specialties skew the data?
remember though that lvl 2 units can gain XP more easily than lvl 1.AT wrote:3. From a scientific standpoint, you're simply ploting the wrong data sets. You need to look at Damage VS. Total XP. If you spend alot of time making a unit expirenced, then it should be worth the trouble.
KISS- keep it simple, stupid
When reading the above quote from TWP, keep in mind the words of Antoine de Saint-Exupéry: "Language is the source of misunderstandings."
When reading the above quote from TWP, keep in mind the words of Antoine de Saint-Exupéry: "Language is the source of misunderstandings."
Re: nerfing
Skew what data?Dacyn wrote:Doesn't not considering specialties skew the data?
If we were talking about the overall value of units, then yes, of course. But we're talking simply about how much damage units do, and how many hitpoints they have.
If we wanted to consider actual value of units, we'd have to consider resistance, chance to be hit, movement, movement cost in different terrains, abilities, etc.
David
“At Gambling, the deadly sin is to mistake bad play for bad luck.” -- Ian Fleming