[Complete] Wesnoth Duel Tournament

[pg]

http://jove.prohosting.com/benscats/wes ... index.html

I thought I'd try and run a Wesnoth Duel Tournament. You can see my futile attemp at a website(thank you whoever made the original Wesnoth site). You should probably recognize where the majority of html came from but it is my first webpage so don't be too hard.

If anyone is interested in helping, playing or has any ideas feel free to pm me or contact me on irc(irc.freenode.net #wesnoth nick pg`) or get in touch via email pgpg7 AT yahoo.com. I am hoping to get at least 16 players. I also need suggestions for good 1v1 maps. I am going use Blitz, and my new duel map Charge! but I want more than 2. I prefer symmetrical maps as they are more fair IMO. I was also thinking of maybe using Isle of Anduin, Across the River, and Three Rivers but I am not sure how fair they are for each side. Opinions would be appreciated.

[turin]

looks interesting.

I would join but 1) i'd get creamed and 2) i don't have time.

[Elvish_Pillager]

Nice website... I soon learned several reasons not to participate.

1) I would have trouble organizing matches and would never remember to be there within five minutes.
2) 2 gold per village is nearly an unreasonable setting, especially if you're going to be using the Isle of Anduin.

I would probably have found more had I looked. Also, I do not wish to be ranked. I do not think that any tournament can measure skill in this sport. (undead swarms... vs other undead swarms... not)

[pg]

1) I would have trouble organizing matches and would never remember to be there within five minutes.

They will be listed on the website. Even quake players seem to have no trouble getting matches played.

2) 2 gold per village is nearly an unreasonable setting, especially if you're going to be using the Isle of Anduin.

I said thinking about it. I asked for opinions. Thank you for yours. I am not sure Isle of Anduin is balanced regardless of gold settings per village.

Also, I do not wish to be ranked. I do not think that any tournament can measure skill in this sport. (undead swarms... vs other undead swarms... not)

Proper maps allow other races than undead to win. If you cannot measure skill at all by a Wesnoth tournament then Wesnoth multiplayer is fundementally flawed and unworthy of being played. Even if the best player may not win certainly the better players will rise to the top. Competition is just one part of why I am running this however. I have fun playing regardless of if I win or lose.

[Dave]

I do not wish to be ranked. I do not think that any tournament can measure skill in this sport. (undead swarms... vs other undead swarms... not)

The thing is, it's a tournament like this that can really help us balance out the game.

If all the top players always use undead swarms, then we know they are unbalanced and have to fix them. But, results can often be surprising when you play with very good other players. Honestly I think it's a little arrogant of anyone to presume to predict that a certain strategy is a sure victory.

David

[Elvish_Pillager]

The thing is, it's a tournament like this that can really help us balance out the game.

If all the top players always use undead swarms, then we know they are unbalanced and have to fix them. But, results can often be surprising when you play with very good other players. Honestly I think it's a little arrogant of anyone to presume to predict that a certain strategy is a sure victory.

David

(not)

Undead swarms aren't the only factor, I know... but there's
1) Chance (You may say it balances out, but once I had an Elvish Fighter defeat 5 Spearmen, while another Elvish Fighter across the map defeated 3... Once I had 3 level 2 elves and 4 lucky Woses he surrendered)
2) Faction differences (not perfect balance)
3) Constant settings (No measure of skill on others)
4) Luck of the Draw with FoW, as current (you may just get units that beat theirs)
4b) not-luck of the Draw without FoW (First player to recruit has a disadvantage)

[Gafgarion]

1) Chance (You may say it balances out, but once I had an Elvish Fighter defeat 5 Spearmen, while another Elvish Fighter across the map defeated 3... Once I had 3 level 2 elves and 4 lucky Woses he surrendered)

Chance isn't such a huge factor that it skews multiplayer.

2) Faction differences (not perfect balance)

Which is one of the reasons to do the tournament

3) Constant settings (No measure of skill on others)

Point there.

4) Luck of the Draw with FoW, as current (you may just get units that beat theirs)

You chose units well based on their faction, it's not luck, it's an educated guess. Anyway, I've never played a match where the first set of recruited units has determined the outcome.

4b) not-luck of the Draw without FoW (First player to recruit has a disadvantage)

I would disagree, the first player to go has an advantage because they're the first to get to any chokepoints on the map... and again: I've never played a match where the first set of recruited units has determined the outcome.

[Elvish_Pillager]

1) Chance (You may say it balances out, but once I had an Elvish Fighter defeat 5 Spearmen, while another Elvish Fighter across the map defeated 3... Once I had 3 level 2 elves and 4 lucky Woses he surrendered)

Chance isn't such a huge factor that it skews multiplayer.

I gave an example of a possible situation... now imagine this:

In the final match of the entire tournament, Elvish Pillager's massive Undead force, mainly Skeletons, closes in on the smaller group of (insert someone else's name here)'s Elvish Fighters. (other person) attacks first. His fighter hits 3 times, the skeleton misses 3 times. Attack again. Fighter hits 4 times, skeleton hits once. And again. Fighter hits 3 times, skeleton hits once. Soon EP's force is decimated.

Seriously, this kind of thing happens, and if it happens in a tournament....
well there's no way to prevent that.

2) Faction differences (not perfect balance)

Which is one of the reasons to do the tournament

You can never have perfect balance.

[Gafgarion]

Chance isn't such a huge factor that it skews multiplayer.

I gave an example of a possible situation... now imagine this:

In the final match of the entire tournament, Elvish Pillager's massive Undead force, mainly Skeletons, closes in on the smaller group of (insert someone else's name here)'s Elvish Fighters. (other person) attacks first. His fighter hits 3 times, the skeleton misses 3 times. Attack again. Fighter hits 4 times, skeleton hits once. And again. Fighter hits 3 times, skeleton hits once. Soon EP's force is decimated.

Seriously, this kind of thing happens, and if it happens in a tournament....
well there's no way to prevent that.

And what's your point?

The wind could massively shift in the deciding field-goal of the superbowl, losing the match for a team that wouldve otherwise won. So?
You haven't made a case against a tournament, randomness is part of Wesnoth.

Anyway if MP is so flawed that it'd be folly to have a small tournament, then it isn't good enough to devote developer resources to either... Why not just remove it?

[Dacyn]

You chose units well based on their faction

If they choose random, you don't know what faction they are...

I've never played a match where the first set of recruited units has determined the outcome.

I don't see how you would be in a position to know that...

[Gafgarion]

I've never played a match where the first set of recruited units has determined the outcome.

I don't see how you would be in a position to know that...

Huh? I don't understand what you're saying.

[Dacyn]

Huh? I don't understand what you're saying.

You can't really tell whether the first recruits decided the game, unless you replay the game from the beginning with recruiting different units. And I don't think you have done that for every game you have played

[Gafgarion]

Huh? I don't understand what you're saying.

You can't really tell whether the first recruits decided the game, unless you replay the game from the beginning with recruiting different units. And I don't think you have done that for every game you have played

They certainly affect the game, but they don't determine the outcome of every game. If you do great recruitment your first turn and terrible recruitment from then-on-out, you probably won't win the game. All I'm saying that initial recruitment isn't as big of an advantage as EP made it seem like.

[pg]

3) Constant settings (No measure of skill on others)

I don't think your other points are valid but this one maybe is. I'd really like to hear your suggested settings. I would prefer establishing some sort of standard settings because in the long run I think it's needed. All other competitive games eventually settle on settings too. If there no standard or semi-standard settings you can never balance the game for competitive play.

I was mostly going to use my duel maps and I design them to work well for the current tournament settings. I should be able to make a few more good duel maps so there will at least be 3+ maps. If you have any ideas for maps I'd like to hear those too. I already have a new one in the works thanks to some ideas from skel.

I would disagree, the first player to go has an advantage because they're the first to get to any chokepoints on the map.

Actually I would disagree on the above. My maps are designed so this isn't a factor. Almost everything time I play my maps players get to the chokepoints at the same time(see Blitz or Charge!) because there is a chokepoint for each player closer to their castle. It is possible to get to the farther away chokepoint first, if you buy very fast units, but that is risky because holding the chokepoint will be hard once you start to face tougher, and slower enemy units. You will also be far enough away that your slower and tougher units will likely not be able to provide reinforcements for a turn or three.

Seriously, this kind of thing happens, and if it happens in a tournament.... well there's no way to prevent that.

This is part of what makes multiplayer so fun. The result can be anything! Just because you are losing doesn't mean you still can't win the game with a little luck. Isn't this why so many people like football(soccer)?

[lilepo2023]

EP is you're so illogically resolved against playing in the tournament then dont join... and for the sake of reading this forum don't talk....