The Ulfserker.

[Noy]

First it was too weak, now its too powerful. (thats a general comment)

It's an extremely powerful strategy. You can use perfectly normal strategy to fight, but if anything gets in your way --- or if your enemies are Mages --- then you bring in an Ulfserker to nuke them.

Seing that the knalgans don't have a mage, or any special unit ... I think its an good trade off and it keeps the spirit of the faction. Really I think Knalgans have no ranged attack to speak of. Poachers are ineffective, and thunderers, are victims of chance, so much so that I view them as unreliable, and rather not take the risk. Therefore the ulf makes up for this deficiency by taking out other ranged units effectively.

Ramping up the cost will make the Knalgans, a very hard faction to play as is, useless.

It's not like it's not a guaranteed kill either. Either you win, or you lose and bring in another Ulfserker.

The advantages of breaking enemy ranks fully outweigh the disadvantages of spending 18 gold to the enemy's ~15. What's more, if the 'serker meets an opposing unit in a one-on-one encounter, it's very likely to win, and then it can just heal up in a village and go on to kill more.

Umm you're completely wrong. In most cases a cheaper fighter type unit will win against a Ulf. I almost never use an ulf against a full powered unit, thats just a waste, ulfs rarely win, or will die quickly. in 90% of situations its used to kill a unit that is severely damaged, or where the defensive disparity is great (ulf on a village, opponent in the water or unit has low attack). The other 10% are against high value targets... ie leadership... that you want to knock down so that you can finish it off.

Any strategist will tell you that a 3v3 situation is preferable to a 2v2. Even if a ulf could break an enemy's ranks (a doubtful propositon). its effectiveness is spent. You've just made a one for one trade... so now you've overall decreased the effectiveness of your force.

Since advocating the complete removal of Ulfserkers at this point would likely be ineffectual, I'll propose a more normal balancing change:

Increase the Ulfserker's cost to 22 gold.

I also don't think it shouldn't be changed. and this is why. The Ulf is a powerful unit, and yes it is the most powerful unit that the Knalgans have...but it must be viewed in conjunction with the rest of its faction. I've said this before, ulfs are worthless without its supporting cast; you can't have an all ulf force. Actually I think that makes it more useless than other secondary units, such as mages or Dark adepts. An All mage strategy can be quite effective against Undead, and Dark adept strategy can be used against drakes very well.

Unfortunately for the Knalgans Ulfs need frontline units to block for it, or it will get easily exploited . For the Knalgans, its options to do this is very expensive. For Loyalists, spearmen are 14 gold, which in most cases can take out a Ulf by itself. However for the Knalgans, the real cheapest option is the Fighter, 17 gold... and I would argue, on an effectiveness vs cost ratio, a poorer unit than the spearman.

So in conclusion, I think the ulf should stay the same. Any change in the ulf should be reflected with changes in the whole faction itself. IF you don't you risk decreasing the effectiveness of the race as a whole, to its detriment.

[js138]

If your argument is that the ulf needs expensive underpowered units to protect it, isn't that an argument for making them cheaper rather than not making the ulf more expensive?

That way your package costs the same, you're just shifting the cost from the protection units to the ulf.

[Elvish_Pillager]

Ramping up the cost will make the Knalgans, a very hard faction to play as is, useless.

All this really shows is that Knalgans are very unbalanced.

There is no other faction which, were one unit removed, would become 'useless', or even much weaker.

The Knalgans absolute dependency on the Ulfserker shows that either the Ulf is dangerously overpowered, or the rest of the faction is dangerously underpowered, or both.

[Dragonking]

Well - I think if you will remove spearman from Loyalist it would be rather hard to call them balanced faction... or Fighter from Elves... or try to win with drakes without adepts playing as undeads.

Knalagans ARE unbalanced, but IMO ulf from 8.11 was most balanced unit in their faction (it's my personal opinion and I would be glad if nobody will try to force me to think diffrent).
As we can see there will be many changes soon: spliting knalagans and outlaws, adding new units etc etc... That's why I'm against splitting topic about them to 100 diffrent topics in 100 diffrent parts of forum. I think we need whole new picture of knalagans and their new units to be able to discuss anything. It's no sence speaking about knalagans before main changes. I would be glad if developers would tell us what thew decided, cause so far I can see only unsorted opinions what can be done.
So IMO: topics about changing ANYTHING about Knalagans should be started ONLY by Developers (Dave), cause so far I feel that whole discussion about it is very chaotic

[Elvish_Pillager]

Well - I think if you will remove spearman from Loyalist it would be rather hard to call them balanced faction... or Fighter from Elves...

Fighter from Elves makes it weaker, yes. Spearmen, though, are not too bad a loss when you still have Archers.

*has to leave now*

[yeeha]

I think the cost would have to go up because like i said in other thread i made: berserkers get a lot better in 0.9. Right now berserkers serious problem what balances their very good skill is their skills bad side if they will be in range of some powerful melee unit then they die and thats why they get killed often but in 0.9 there is no such problem because you kill ranged attacker lose few hitpoints and get hit by 1-2 melee strikers enemy turn and u can still can probrably retreat. If they dont make them selective berserkness then i think their cost should remain as it is.

[Noy]

Ramping up the cost will make the Knalgans, a very hard faction to play as is, useless.

All this really shows is that Knalgans are very unbalanced.

There is no other faction which, were one unit removed, would become 'useless', or even much weaker.

The Knalgans absolute dependency on the Ulfserker shows that either the Ulf is dangerously overpowered, or the rest of the faction is dangerously underpowered, or both.

umm we've been saying this for quite some time. I think the number one problem is the defencive multipliers for knalgan units and the lack of real ranged damage units available.

HOWEVER as they stand I do like the knalgans, and I think their mix of units is quite good. As I said before, and you seem to keep forgetting is that the knalgans cannot have a race full of just ulfs. realistically out of a 100 point start, you can get one ulf, maybe two if you don't need too many footpads/rogues to capture villages. Really thats no different than having one or two horsemen for loyalist to finish off weaken units. Could knalgans live without the ulf? yes, it would be tougher, but having the ulf kinda balances them out somewhat. IT would really be not much different than removing the mage from the loy and rebels, or the dark adept from undead. Without the DA, the undead would be easy meat for the drakes. I think its a really good effective counter to the secondaries of other races, and in its current form should not be removed.

as it stands right now, Knalgans are a fairly good race, although their strategy is somewhat predicatble given the unit opportunities. I'm sorry, but I think the thunderer is a tactically useless unit... so unreliable that I'd rather not deal with it. Most dwarven players use five different units. The Ulf, Fighter, rogue, guardsman and the footpad. really in a pinch you can get away with only the first three. Its not a sure fire strategy either. IT works well against certain races, and not so well against others.

In the end I contend that as they stand the knalgans are neither overpowered nor underpowered... although their race could be made more diverse and flexible, they are fairly good as they are. the centrality of the ulf could be lessened

[Elvish_Pillager]

Really thats no different than having one or two horsemen for loyalist to finish off weaken units.

It is indeed different. Very different. You see, Ulfs cost less, have more HP, have guaranteed kills instead of likely ones, and can't grab villages.

I'm sorry, but I think the thunderer is a tactically useless unit... so unreliable that I'd rather not deal with it.

I like it because it can do 18 damage quite frequently. It's best to carry a thunderer or two to soften up enemies before you kill them, althought they're still a little overcosted (maybe not once they get 5-3 melee, though.)

Most dwarven players use five different units. The Ulf, Fighter, rogue, guardsman and the footpad.

My strategy involves 2 Ulfs, and bodyguards depending on the map. (Thugs/thieves/poachers for large maps, Fighters on small maps with hills/mountains, Guardsmen on small maps with open terrain.)

the centrality of the ulf could be lessened

Yes... perhaps a smaller increase to 20 gold? It's not that much of a change.

[Kirdan]

It's similar to the Thugs and Ulfsekers that someone else was saying were great against Undead,

Hmm... Ulfserkers great against undead ???

My experience is that Ulfserkers are not that great against ghosts and taking on a wraith is pure suicide. The wraith got drain which often leaves it almost unharmed by an ulfserker attack.

[Dragonking]

Ulfs kill adepts all the time and ghost if it isn't night. And archers of course too

[Kirdan]

Ulfs kill adepts all the time and ghost if it isn't night. And archers of course too

Of course the kill adepts. Adepts don't fight back. Ghosts should not travel alone and though some ghosts might die, others make Wraits and Wraits kill Ulfserkers all the time ... well.. mostly.

[Dragonking]

Ghosts should not travel alone...

Ulfserkers too

...others make Wraits...

It's not easy to make wraith. And because ghost cost it's rather hard to see many of them at map. And you don't kill with ulf first ghost you see - you chose to kill this one near lvl

and Wraits kill Ulfserkers all the time ... well.. mostly.

Not mostly but 100% if used properly - that's why knalgans have too other units, not only ulfserkers

[AT]

With the current changes, Ulfs are scary. There's nothing as frightening as seeing a bunch of them appear right next to your mages.
But, while they may devestate your force, they usually wouln't live long enough to retreat after they do.
They're not perfect, but try them in the next release, and let us know.

[Dragonking]

With the current changes, Ulfs are scary. There's nothing as frightening as seeing a bunch of them appear right next to your mages.
But, while they may devestate your force, they usually wouln't live long enough to retreat after they do.
They're not perfect, but try them in the next release, and let us know.

After playing cvs, I think that removing berserk at defence make them perfect.. but this is my personal opinion.

[Kamamura]

According to my recent multiplayer experience with Wesnoth 0.9.0, the ulf/berserker seems to be a balance-breaking unit. He is able to kill any support unit and any wounded unit instantly, which is very bad.

I would strongly recommend to:

1) remove his physical resistances (berserker fought naked, without armor during the viking era). I would leave only cold and holy resistance (perhaps).

and/or

2) make berserker a bit slower and/or expensive