The Drakes are overpowered, how? (No Seriously)

[Shade]

As much fun as it is to be snide & bitchy and say that the Drakes are overpowered, how exactly are they overpowered? I'm being serious here. It's fine for the 'top posters of the month club' to say, "Ohh, they're overpowered..." but without proposals in front of people at least slightly inclined to do something about it it is less than useless, it's actually counterproductive.

The 'new Drakes' were committed in Wesnoth .8.5, with a wide consensus that they were too weak. They were ratcheted up from .8.5 to .8.8. There were no complains (Minus the Tribalist being way too strong) broad complaints until after .8.10 released.

I have a nagging suspicion that adding traits (AKA their last update) was probably 'A bridge too far'... Beyond that suggest your proposal here and now and something might even get done for the next release [Or keep being snide and bitchy in every thread you can, either or ].

[Disto]

No idea, don't play as them or against them.

[Elvish_Pillager]

They were ratcheted up from .8.5 to .8.8. There were no complains (Minus the Tribalist being way too strong) broad complaints until after .8.10 released.

I didn't try Drakes or examine their stats until after 0.8.10, that's why.

As much fun as it is to be snide & bitchy and say that the Drakes are overpowered, how exactly are they overpowered? I'm being serious here. It's fine for the 'top posters of the month club' to say, "Ohh, they're overpowered..." but without proposals in front of people at least slightly inclined to do something about it it is less than useless, it's actually counterproductive.

From the "Why I do not..." thread:

Remake DRAKES!!

Yeah, look at the Drake lineup:

Generic, powerful, archer.
Generic, powerful, fighter.
Generic, powerful, mixed fighter.
Generic, cheap, scout.

Not one of them has any interesting abilities. Drakes are the only faction with no abilities. (yeah, yeah, so they can get leadership...) All of them fit the same mold: Tough flier with no abilities.

That totally needs to be changed if Drakes are to be a reasonable faction.

To start with, let's make them interesting, like this:

Alignment now: neutral. proposed: Lawful
Burner line's ranged attacks now: 8-3, 12-3, 15-3. proposed: 4-6, 5-7, 6-8.
Flare's ability now: Leadership. proposed: Illuminates.
Clasher's attacks now: 6-4 & 5-4. proposed: 8-3 & 4-4 backstab.

Now that they're interesting, we can smack them with a little conservative rebalancing:
Burner line HP now: 45, 57, 74. proposed: 42, 54, 71.
Clasher cost now: 19. proposed: 21.
Glider cost now: 15. proposed: 16.

Although now, my view is that the Glider should cost 18 at minimum, no other changes though.

[Breeblebox]

In the early game, Drakes seem to have a better than average chance of rushing and killing you outright. This may be related to the tank-like nature of their units and their ability to fly. As the game progresses, they are less and less likely to do this as upkeep and unit cost catches up with them.

From this perspective, you could say they were 'early starters', where Knaglans for instance (especially when the outlaws are removed) are more of a 'late starter' faction. I don't think it's overpowered, it's just providing a faction that suits a different style of gameplay.

Having said that, they are pretty tough. Any changes required would surely be minor and, if anything, in the tone down department.

[Shade]

Well, that's at least a start:

They have no abilities:
-Sure they have no abilities, outside of the fact that 1/2 of them fly and breath fire.

Changing them to lawful:
-Probably a good Idea (They should like the sun, I'd be tempted to move the Saurians to Neutral for similar reasons, plus a move to neutral would defang them a bit).

Moving the glider to 16 GP instead of 15 (not the 18):
-Reasonable (More can be done later)

Making the damage distribution more normal with fire fire breath:
-I kind of like the randomness, but I don't hate the Idea. So, OK.

Stripping a few HP from the Burner:
- OK. In fact I'd go a step further, I'd strip a few HP from all of the Drakes and a few more from the Burner. Most of the balancing work was done when they had no traits, now that they have traits they are probably all a bit too powerful.

Increasing the cost of the Clasher:
-Less inclined to do so. They are the only Drake that walks and has no ranged attack. They are also the only Drake that is less piercable, but since many of the damaging ranged thingies tend to be pointy this is 'ability' mitigated. I wouldn't mind seeing them lose a few more than a few HP as the burner.

Giving the Clasher Backstab:
- Less inclind to do so. It just doesn't feel right to me.

General concern that the Drakes are too uniform:
- Come up with an idea and art that breaks up that uniformity.

General statement about, "Well you just had to go to post X in thread Y". The forums aren't just a 'pull medium' for developers. If I see a good idea I tend to 'pull' it in and set to work on it. That being said, if you are a forum vet, and something needs doing that's not getting done, it doesn't hurt to VERY OCCASIONALLY PM a developer and give them a little reminder. Especially if there is a certain level of grumbling about a subject (AKA to 'push' the subject (JUST A LITTLE) on to the agenda of the developer in charge.

And no, I'm not advocating that every forum user start spamming every developer (At least if you want developers to still read [or skim] the forums). But if you know 'who's in charge of a thing / or last 'touched' it, and something 'is needed', and it seems to have fallen off the agenda, a brief tap on the shoulder doesn't hurt.

Continually grumbling about something without that tap on the shoulder (I mean use your good sense before you PM anybody) doesn't actually get anything done.

[Elvish_Pillager]

General concern that the Drakes are too uniform:
- Come up with an idea and art that breaks up that uniformity.

Art? It's certainly not a good idea to add new units for the sake of breaking uniformity (there are too many 'generic' units already) and if not new units, why new art?

[Shade]

General concern that the Drakes are too uniform:
- Come up with an idea and art that breaks up that uniformity.

Art? It's certainly not a good idea to add new units for the sake of breaking uniformity (there are too many 'generic' units already) and if not new units, why new art?

I was thinking as a replacement. No, let's not add units to break uniformity... Sorry

(Sorry, to retool a line to change it's functionality often requires graphical changes)

[Dragonking]

I agree with Elvish Pillager that Glider should cost more - it's very good scout, too good to cost only 15g. I think that drakes should have -20% to pierce, cause -10% sometimes gives attacker nothing.

[Shade]

I think that drakes should have -20% to pierce, cause -10% sometimes gives attacker nothing.

I'm more inclined to shave a few HP from most of the Drakes (My opinion of this came up in the 'skeleton / fire' thread). While too uniform is bad, so is too diverse (IMHO), and I loathe the thought of making them that much weaker to pierce. Rounding is a pain, but so is a 50% defence spread between two melee damage types...

Hmm... Dave seems have changed the Drake pierce to a uniform -20 anyway... I either missed that or forgot. I'll cull the ideas from this thread tomorrow, then create a proposal (maybe or maybe not ask Dave about that 20%- I want to play with that first.)

[Invisible Philosopher]

They have no abilities:
-Sure they have no abilities, outside of the fact that 1/2 of them fly and breath fire.

Flying makes them less interesting, not more, when there's too much of it. Movement cost no longer plays a factor for you. Same reason I dislike maps that are mostly just plains. Although Drakes do have varying defense and some don't fly, so it's not so bad.

And fire breath is, for the most part, not much different from any other ranged attack (e.g. elves). Additionally their pierce weakness makes their ranged superiority less (though that's fine with me).

Anyway that's just MHO of why flying and fire breath don't "feel like" abilities to me.

The Drakish faction having another ability would be nice though; currently they're stuck with only the Saurian Tribalist for abilities (which, because of having abilities, is more fun to play for me than just the abilityless Drakes, though I haven't played them since their nerfing). Wait, Saurian Skirmishers have an ability too, but I don't like that I play a faction named "Drakes" as a variety of saurians and a few powerhouses (whose power level I see may be fixed, but still...).

Hopefully my musings will have proven useful or at least interesting.

P.S. This is not off topic; moving to Developer's Discussions... (though it might be better in Multiplayer development, if that's where balancing discussions now belong, in which case someone with the power to can move it there)

[Elvish_Pillager]

P.S. This is not off topic; moving to Developer's Discussions... (though it might be better in Multiplayer development, if that's where balancing discussions now belong, in which case someone with the power to can move it there)

You can now move topics to any forum, even one you can't moderate.

[Invisible Philosopher]

You can now move topics to any forum, even one you can't moderate.

But do balancing discussions now belong there? E.g., they affect campaigns as well as multiplayer.

[Shade]

It wasn't meant for OT [Please remember, I'm basically a moron]. No, I'm not anti-more abilities... But I'm not quite ready to propose giving the Clasher Backstab... And yes fly is a bit of an anti-ability in that it makes a faction more bland...

[Assasin]

I'd like to see all of those changes done, except the attacks of the Burner. They'd be too good. You gave them less damage for more attacks. Wouldn't that increase their likeliness to hit? The Clashers I like just as they are, they drakes only have one good melee unit, either add another one or leave them the same. The scouts are good, but their also pretty equal to the Wolf Rider. I'm not sure of the cost, but why not make them the same price? To null some of the advantages they get from flying, take some of their movement away, and make it so all but the Glider can go in deep water, cause they only fly for short distances. If you want a new ability, why not let them destroy forest? I'm not sure how this would work, it might not work at all.

How about Burn, where the Burners fire can do continues damage, say like 4 per turn, cause of they just gave them 3 degree burns, right?

[yeeha]

i think drakes flying ability is what makes them so great.When its map where is less obstacles and many castles they are nothing special but map where hit and run is possible thx to terrain they are really powerful.I think one way to solve a problem would be make them slower in mountains and snow(because when in mountains drake has to fly high where it is cold and well snowy land is cold anyway and in cold they tire easyly).