Scenario Review: SotBE 15 - Civil War

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Scenario Review: SotBE 15 - Civil War

Post by Content Feedback »

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
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Afex
Posts: 4
Joined: March 26th, 2009, 12:54 pm

Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 15 - Civil War

Post by Afex »

1. Challenging (the easiest). Version was 1.4.7.
2.4
3.Very clear
4.There wasnt too much dialogs in this. Maybe some more could be added, to the orc leaders for eg ?
5.There was a bug i would like to correct. In the end i went with Kapoue to the signpost, and then I killed the last boss alive and ended my turn. Then nothing happened even though i stopped my turn several times. Then i went back to the previous save, and killed the boss first and went to the signpost with Kapoue, This time it worked, but it would be nice if you would fix it, so you could also move Kapoue first to the post and then kill the boss. Little mistake, but i had to nitpick.
6.5,Not really fun as it was too long map, and really not challenging.
7.Look (5)
8.Nope
9.WML was good.
Egosnemesis
Posts: 18
Joined: April 23rd, 2009, 10:54 am

Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 15 - Civil War

Post by Egosnemesis »

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Challenging (the easiest). Wesnoth 1.6.1

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
6. It was slow going (although there were roads). I made the mistake of sending more troops south than west, instead of the other way around. I ended up having all my troops either die or max out to level 3 on the west. However, I had about 6 or 7 troll whelps that never even got to the front in the south.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Fun to clobber together the orc tribes.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Splitting your troops properly and cycling them well, since no one can defend in snow, everyone gets hurt fast.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
6. Not a huge fan of snow, although the storyline works very well with level in the campaign.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
I just didn't understand why they were all so eager to team up against me. If these are "rebel" warlords, shouldn't they fight each other a little bit? It doesn't have to be a FFA, maybe a 2 vs 2 vs 1 or a 3 vs 1 vs 1.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Got careless leading on the front lines with my king.

(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
N/A
superbeast
Posts: 4
Joined: June 18th, 2009, 12:50 am

Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 15 - Civil War

Post by superbeast »

1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
medium difficulty in 1.7.0

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
5

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
very clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
good

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
none

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
6

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
none

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
I'm not sure this is the correct place for these comments but this is the only scenario where it's happened. After about turn 10 or 11, the game 'lost' the scenario name information. So instead of savegame filenames with "SotBE - Civil War - Autosave Turn 11" the same game filenames all became "autosave.gz". Initially i wasn't worried about. When the scenario is completed (about 20 turns later maybe?) is when I was saddened. At that point I couldn't continue because it gives an error about not be able to load the next scenario. This is the only time I've seen it. I don't know how it occurred. Just have to start over at the last correct save and see if it's OK.
Benefuchs
Posts: 54
Joined: February 24th, 2009, 9:40 pm

Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 15 - Civil War

Post by Benefuchs »

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
medium, 1.6

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
6-7

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
OK, but not as good as the rest of the campaign. In the beginning, one of the enemies mentiones something like "piercing your head with a lance" (at least in the german version), whereas the orcs don't use lances.
And the last two don't really have anything to say.
On the plus side is the storyline leading to the next scenario: fighting and marching fast as described was exactly what this scenario was about.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
time was rather short.
And loss of veterans on snow can be annoying.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
6. big battles are nice, but this one could be smaller.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
don't know any

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
being too slow to reach the signpost in time on my first attempt.

(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
N/A
shadowblack
Posts: 368
Joined: April 15th, 2010, 3:03 pm

Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 15 - Civil War

Post by shadowblack »

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
1.8.4, Warrior (Difficult), i.e. (what I consider) Normal difficulty

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
8

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Seemed clear, but turned out I don’t really need to kill all enemy leaders, despite what the objectives say (though that might be a bug)

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Fine.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
I sent too many units south and too few west, so surviving the enemies that come from the west was challenging, and I even had to result to reloading a few times to save my leader.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
5 – too many enemies + snow = annoyance

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Either reduce the number of enemies, or make them fight each other. Otherwise it takes too long.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Due to having too few troops on the west side Kapou’e got killed a few times. After that he got killed a few mote times due to my carelessness.

(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
Commented well enough, though I am curious about the parts that have been commented out…
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santosis
Posts: 74
Joined: October 11th, 2010, 12:04 am

Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 15 - Civil War

Post by santosis »

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?
Difficult, 1.8.5

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
8 first time, 7 second time (once I knew what was coming)

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear; kill everyone, make it to the sign.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Fine.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

First time, I sent a troll army (hero, another lvl 3, 3 lvl 2s, 5 lvl 1s) south through the mountains and then recalled all my powerful troops. I had two saurian shamans, and tried to make a moving wall of lvl 3s. The terrain modifiers were too brutal, however, and I lost too many quality troops.

Second time, I still sent the troll army south. But I changed my northern front. I recruited my lvl 3's as backups. I then recruited an army of assassins and made a line in the snow. I basically poisoned the enemy to death. At one point, they overran me and killed one of my shamans, but I fell back, regrouped, and wiped them out.

I finished in round 32/35 with 401 gold and will start next scenario with 209 bonus gold.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
10 - Epic, but I was ready for a big battle

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Excellent as is.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Yeah, a few brutal rounds near the end of my second attempt (would have cost me a lvl 3 troll, lvl 2 assassin, and a lvl 3 archer).
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Maiklas3000
Posts: 532
Joined: June 23rd, 2010, 10:43 am

Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 15 - Civil War

Post by Maiklas3000 »

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Nightmare; 1.9.2; 719 starting gold (minimum is 400)

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
9

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Objectives are buggy. I killed two leaders and sat on the signpost, then killed the third and hit end turn, expecting victory. Nothing happened until I stepped off and back on the signpost.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Okay.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
The fight on snow is a [censored]. The AI is at its best here, since it is good at the tactics of killing units on bad terrain. On my first victory, I lost two Direwolves. Then I lost many times before being able to win with only minor casualties (a Pillager and level 1's.) [Edit: Ah, crap, just noticed I lost Inarix.] My biggest problem was my lines collapsing on snow, resulting in the death of my Soothsayer, who is not critical but tough to win without. Assassins plus whelps backed by leveled Trolls is the way to go.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Huge battles that are hard to win require a lot time for those of us who restart instead of save-reloading. Reduce gold on both sides.

Ending is anticlimatic. I would make leader killing optional.

Fix bug listed at #3.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
I lost several times, restarting each time.

(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
There are a couple of comments, but need to paint the big picture.

I notice that one of the orc leaders can recruit Goblin Impalers, but he never does.

* * *

Edit: Reuploaded later replay where I don't lose Inarix, but do lose 2 or 3 great trolls and a soothsayer. I gained a lot of great trolls too.
Attachments
SotBE-Civil_War_replay.gz
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Faello
Posts: 441
Joined: June 7th, 2005, 9:01 am
Location: Holy Office

Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 15 - Civil War

Post by Faello »

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?

Nightmare (Warlord), 1.8.5, no saves/reloads, 735 starting gold

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

8.

SotBE "Civil War" scenario is a wesnoth simulation of 1812 Napoleon march on Moscow, except you're going nach W instead of E :mrgreen:

I think that passing this scenario with below-600gp treasury must be incredibly hard. Even with nearly 750gp army, better positions, being a defender and superior battle tactics, it was still hard to destroy all of the enemy units (total enemy army worth was near 2000gp :twisted: ). It's hard & very long scenario that requires patience, and good planning - still, there's some place for mistakes and some time for withdrawal (one of my flanks got very weak because I wanted to save 100gp, thus didn't bring enough reinforcements with me, which proves that sometimes saving gp's might not pay off - I'm pretty sure I lost some valuable time on recapturing the ground I lost. Still, even if Siege of Barag Gor or Black Flag might be harder when it comes to the strategy, both of the mentioned scenarios are shorter, it's harder to lose some valuable units there (no 20% ground and tons of lvl 2's with the same powerphase as the players powerphase etc.) and once you got the overal idea how to pass them, they're much easier to win (especially Black Flag).

This scenario is all about patience and details and will always require them (not to mention some distinct amount of planning) thus the similar note.

18 losses, 77 kills in this one.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Crystal clear - also, it's good that player got a reminder about "going to the signpost" objective. After this huge battle/meat grinder it's easy to forget about it :lol2:

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

It's good.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

Assasinating all 4 enemy leaders on time & keeping my veterans alive. It was the first scenario in which I lost a lvl3 unit.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

It's tiresome, but I feel satisfaction after winning it, so I'll give it 7.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?


It's Nightmare level, no changes required.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

No, passed it on the first trial.

Replay attached:
Attachments
SotBE-Civil_War_replay.gz
Civil War replay, Nightmare (Warlord) difficulty level, 1.8.5, no saves/reloads
(73.17 KiB) Downloaded 857 times
The yellow jester does not play
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and smiles as the puppets dance
in the court of the Crimson King.
cph
Posts: 129
Joined: May 12th, 2007, 4:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 15 - Civil War

Post by cph »

(1) Warrior, 1.8.5
(2) 6. Completed with minor losses and one or two save-loads for careless moves. Finished on turn 30. Started with 850ish gold, used around 600.
(3) Clear.
(4) "if the orcish forces began to fight amongst themselves as they so often did, then the humans would eradicate them with ease…Kapou'e vowed that this would not happen." - and then wipes out 4 orc tribes in the next scenario without even trying to bring them under his banner. This seemed odd.

"clobber" the orcs together sounded odd… but on second thoughts I guess it is apt :-)

(5) The large number of enemy trolls in the mountains to the south to clear up — although slurbows and assassins meant it was not too hard a problem (and you can always draw some out onto the snow if you are careful).

Judging how many troops and how strong I needed in each area, as it takes a while for the enemy troops to filter across the dense terrain and it's not as easy for me to move troops back and forth since I care about avoiding casualties.

Keeping units alive on the snow in the fight in the north (although it was less of a problem than the previous two snow levels).

The significant numbers of enemy L2 wolf riders, which were quite mobile in this otherwise difficult terrain and can do a fair amount of harm.

Forgetting to move units — it's a big army to manage.

(6) 7. This is the third level in a row of snow+mountain, but the level actually plays quite differently from the other two so that's okay (the roads, and having an actual fight in the mountains, makes the difference). Having such a large army to move around means it plays a little slow. The enemies here are very generic, but the map is good enough that that is only a minor flaw. Overall, a good large-scale battle with interesting terrain.

To look at it another way, this map feels very like Test of the Clans, but this is a much more playable level and I enjoyed this far more, even if the enemies were more generic.

(7) I would add a route from the SW keep to the signpost; I had 6 turns at the end of just walking Kapou'e to the signpost. That could have been 4 turns if there was a more direct path from the SW keep to the signpost. (Or I could have thought ahead and assigned Kapou'e to the north division.)

I would think about improving the backstory or negotiation dialogue between Kapou'e and these rebels.

(8) I lost Kapou'e to a careless move.
line
Posts: 94
Joined: January 11th, 2012, 9:21 pm

Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 15 - Civil War

Post by line »

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Warlord (Nightmare) 1.10.3
781 starting gold (enemies:400 each)
Finished turn 27/30

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
9,5 to win without losing a core unit. Quite easy, if you don’t mind a loss. According to my favorite sort of gameplay I tried a lot of times to perform as good as possible (without save loading, always restarted from the beginning, what got quite boring).

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear. Kill AND reach the signpost.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Clear. I wondered, when Grüü killed a crossbowman and didn’t comment on it, like he sometimes does in this scenario. Then he says something like: “Little orcs fun to squash, too.” Then I checked and found out, that he indeed means little orcs and therefore will only comment on killing orcish archer or orcish assassin. Well, I thought from his point of view, every other orc is little. :D

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Surviving attacks from 3 hexes. Finding the right strategy. First I sent one group west along the road and tried to make the stand using the 3 hills south of the road. But that means to have the lvl-2 units of the two western leaders to arrive at night. Therefore I chose a meeting point more to the east, to delay their arrival. The second group I supposed to do well using the hills and woods south of my keep, having the enemy on ice. But the Ai is not that stupid and encircled me instead of attacking from the ice. That’s why the southern group now hurried to the southern mountains, to catch up the army of the southeastern leader and more enemies passing the lake on the southern route, to take some pressure off the first group.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8. If you don’t like losing units (like me) it’s not that much fun, because you can’t avoid fights on the ice, where a lot of damage is dished out.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
None.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Losing a veteran.
Attachments
SotBE-Civil_War_replay.gz
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SBak
Posts: 78
Joined: October 8th, 2011, 1:36 am

Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 15 - Civil War

Post by SBak »

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Challenging (easiest) 1.8.5 and 1.10.5

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
8.5 with recalls or 9 with level1s mixed with a few recalls.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Very clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Interesting enough.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
It's hard to know where to begin.. The numbers of enemies? The terrain? Or the fact that the enemy AI tends to play Orcs and Trolls better than I do?

The signpost out west makes a significant difference. I found this difficult primarily because I was fighting Orcs and Trolls with.. Orcs and Trolls, good terrain was in short supply, especially out west and most of my limited (due to lack of experience of playing Orcs and Trolls) abilities to develop good strategies and tactics was countered usually very effectively by the enemy AI.

This was a luck dependent type of scenario which forced me to take risks and somehow find a way through. I found that the best thing I could do at the start is not recruit or recall anything until I could see what the enemy was recruiting (thank God there was no shroud or fog of war). Not that it made things that much easier.

Even though my main focus has been on the west most, if not all my victories in this scenario have started in the south where I tend to spread units out thinly in the mountains and on villages. Noticing that the enemy AI tends to rely more heavily out west on Assassins and Pillagers I found that I could even 'network' my southern forces relying mainly on Trolls, the Archer lines, Assassins and Pillagers with my more valuable units. Out west (provided I have enough gold) I send mainly level1's from the initial keep as I've found that the differences in levels between units aren't that great and then when Kapou'e captures the first keep I recall mainly level2 units. Two Archers or Grunts can put any level 2 unit out of action and an Assassin can poison any unit just as well as a Slayer.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
This averages out at 5. While I enjoy having to be creative and come up with a different strategy to outwit the enemy AI together with all the risks and stand offs which take place through this scenario I have a strong dislike for Orcish Assassins and Slayers (hatred is reserved for Cave Spiders, Ghouls and Necrophages).

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
I somehow think there's not much you can do to improve my ability at playing Orcs and Trolls.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Yes, quite a few in fact.
Theron
Posts: 137
Joined: May 13th, 2008, 10:49 am

Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 15 - Civil War

Post by Theron »

Nightmare; 1.11.13

Stats:
Scenario, starting gold (default+carryover),turns/max turns,recruits-recalls-advancements-losses-kills
15 300+82 28/30 4-16-10-13-67

Comments:
Scenario 15:
This is a very hard scenario and maybe unwinnable without above average luck (at least at key fights).
With my gold it was unfeasible to field a southern strike force.
The turn limit is tight. So Kapou'e need to get moving and take advantage of the snow slowing the enemy reinforcements.
To kill them as fast as possible high level veterans are needed.
My recall/recruit mix might not have been optimal.
I'm not happy with my reloads but after seeing the battle strategy might work I was curious if I was running out of time:
Reloaded on turn 11 because of a series of 80% misses.
Reloaded on turn 13 to give Jetto a level heal.
Reloaded on turn 14 to ensure critical kills.
Reloaded on turn 16 to give Kapou’e at least one hit.
Reloaded on turn 21 to kill both blue units.

Edit:
Comments:
Heavy losses are to be expected. We are talking about "this would also give him a good chance to clobber the orcs together again — the old fashioned way.".

Suggestion:
Give the player more gold (about 50) to
- help players with less carryover gold than me.
- give the player the strategic option to split forces.
- afford a bit of bad luck as he has replacement units.
- train more rookies or
- field 2 veterans in the hope this will minimize his losses.
Give the player a bigger keep (1 hex) to spend the extra gold in the same amount of turns.
Possible explanation for more gold:
Each time the player defeats an enemy in "Back Home" het gets 20-30 gold* giving him the option to
- recruit/recall units to ensure victory or
- save for maximum carryover (4*25 translates to +40 carryover gold).
*The enemy soldiers aren't fighting for glory(?) they want pay.
Or just increase default gold.

Edit:
I'm missing Grüü's gold. It should be given back to Kapou'e at the end of "Back Home"
or (for double early finish bonus) at the start of this scenario.
Attachments
SotBE-Civil_War_replay.gz
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Maiklas3000
Posts: 532
Joined: June 23rd, 2010, 10:43 am

Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 15 - Civil War

Post by Maiklas3000 »

(1) Level, version, gold? Nightmare, 1.11.12+13, 363 starting gold.
(2) Difficult? (1-10) Kobayashi Maru.
(3) Clear? Maybe the player needs a reminder around turn 13 about the signpost. I forgot once. Maybe Gruu could say, "You get going, boss. I'll crush them."
(4) Dialog? Okay.
(5) Challenges? I got stuck. See the thread Stuck on SotBE:Civil War. No matter what strategy you use, you will soon find almost all your units near death. The amount of damage the enemy can dish out is incredible. Just surviving is difficult, and even if you defeat all the enemy leaders you may lose due to Kapou'e not having left early enough for the signpost. What finally worked for me was Theron's strategy of sending everyone west along the road. Even then, I lost the first two attempts. What may have helped in the end was doing more recalls, less spam.
(6) Fun? (1-10) 5. Too hard, with not much fun to offset the frustration.
(7) Changes? Give less gold to the enemy. Also, I echo the above reviewer's comment that Gruu's gold should stick with Kapou'e. That bothered me both this time and my previous time through this campaign. [Edit: Actually, Gruu's gold does return to Kapou'e, I now realize, but a dialog to that fact would help.] The endgame is anticlimatic leader-bashing while Kapou'e jogs unopposed to the finish line. This is because the enemies recruit lots of L2's and most of them go negative on gold. Could you limit their L2 recruits?
(8) Restarts? Two save-reloads, one to save Inarix and one to save Jetto. It still feels like a victory.
Attachments
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podbelski
Posts: 151
Joined: June 7th, 2011, 8:35 pm

Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 15 - Civil War

Post by podbelski »

good map, but what a strange scenario settings! Needs serious changes IMO

1.11.15, medium difficulty, 383 gp

1) it's very hard, like 9/10: I tried to stay in the keep and defend, but was short by ~6 turns to finish off the leaders and reach the signpost. So the only viable strategy is as Theron and Maiklas suggested.

2) not fun/frustrating/boring: you just have to survive the collective attack, then run across the clean map to kill the leaders and reach the signpost

3) the scenario is called "Civil war", so why all the orks are united against Kapou'e? My expectation is all the leaders has to be hostile to each other. Ideally they should sit near their keeps with limited fights against each other, but not sure if it's implementable... maybe put several stationary guards, reduce enemies' starting gold but give a per-turn gold boost to them?

in the end I had to edit the scenario to beat it, no replay available
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