Scenario 10: Gryphon Mountain
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Re: Scenario 10: Gryphon Mountain
version 1.12.6, mediumContent Feedback wrote: ↑December 7th, 2005, 4:03 pm (1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
6 if you want the eggs, 2 for just winning, as the rest of the scenario is basically walking around a map full of high-defence terrain while you have magical and marksman attacks and the enemy doesn't.Content Feedback wrote: ↑December 7th, 2005, 4:03 pm (2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
It is not very clear that you only need to kill the gryphon mother to get the eggs and do nothing else to actually retrieve them.Content Feedback wrote: ↑December 7th, 2005, 4:03 pm (3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
I find it astonishing that the enemy general makes such a fuss about the eggs, wanting to keep them out of the player's hands at all cost. I mean, gryphon riders are nice to have, but not really a necessity for the rest of the campaign.Content Feedback wrote: ↑December 7th, 2005, 4:03 pm (4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Getting the eggs. The only units on your roster that are fast enough to even get to the gryphon mother before the ogres kill her are elvish scouts and their advancements. And if you don't have a few outriders at this point, it is very difficult to get the killing blow before the ogres get there. I had 2 riders (lvl-2) and 2 scouts go after the eggs, and it was only by luck that one of my scouts got the killing blow – it could have just as well been an ogre who was also there by then.Content Feedback wrote: ↑December 7th, 2005, 4:03 pm (5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
4. The eggs are very difficult to get if you haven't spent the previous scenarios pointlessly levelling up elvish scouts. Otherwise, it's just beating up another relatively weak contingent of the evil queen's troops.Content Feedback wrote: ↑December 7th, 2005, 4:03 pm (6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
Give the player a chance to get the eggs without having to waste XP advancing elvish scouts in the previous scenarios (for all other scenarios in the campaign, lvl-1 scouts are actually better, as they require less upkeep and should never be involved in any serious fighting).Content Feedback wrote: ↑December 7th, 2005, 4:03 pm (7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
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Re: Scenario 10: Gryphon Mountain
I usually get the eggs using slower units. You have to use the terrain to your advantage to get up there quickly, and it can help to send a few flankers around to distract the opponents. I made some changes for 1.14 which you should check out which have to do with how you choose to complete this campaign.
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Re: Scenario 10: Gryphon Mountain
I'm just replaying the HttT campaign, and re-discovering this mission. I must say, it makes me uncomfortable. HttT is the classic 'good vs bad' campaign, where the good guys are genuinely good old fashioned heroes and the baddies are clearly on the bad end of the spectrum. Which sits well; it's what you want in a classic swords-n-sorcery epic, at least for the main flagship campaign behind wesnoth.
but replaying this mission, I was struck by how 'off' it feels being asked to kill a mother gryphon for reward; I mean, even trolls and goblins are made to be characters we sympathise with in other campaigns, which works well. Noble, beautiful gryphons are unquestionably on the 'good' end of the inherent moral spectrum in such a fantasy universe - and killing mother-anythings to abduct their young is just... wrong.
I get that some stories need morally questionable stuff. The legend of wesmere mission with Landar slaughtering the saurians feels grim, but it fits the story; you know that this is a 'bad' thing happening even as you're playing through it, and there's a comeupance and a setting-to-rights as the story progresses. With gryphon mountain, there's no such thing. Killed a mother trying to defend her young? great work, well done you - have a new unit recruit type. it just feels wrong.
the entire tone could be changed with a bit of reworking to the dialog (even driving off the mother gryphon, or stealing the eggs without killing her, feels slightly less unpleasant - even better, 'rescuing' her from the loyalist attackers from the north), or the level could be re-designed slightly.
it might sound like a small detail, but it's genuinely knocked my enjoyment of the campaign replay down a notch. maybe I'm being overly-sensitive. but I think if we're wanting the game to appeal to a wider audience and new young players, it's important to consider details like this.
anyway, just my opinion on this. others may beg to differ (that's what a forum is for, after all!)
but replaying this mission, I was struck by how 'off' it feels being asked to kill a mother gryphon for reward; I mean, even trolls and goblins are made to be characters we sympathise with in other campaigns, which works well. Noble, beautiful gryphons are unquestionably on the 'good' end of the inherent moral spectrum in such a fantasy universe - and killing mother-anythings to abduct their young is just... wrong.
I get that some stories need morally questionable stuff. The legend of wesmere mission with Landar slaughtering the saurians feels grim, but it fits the story; you know that this is a 'bad' thing happening even as you're playing through it, and there's a comeupance and a setting-to-rights as the story progresses. With gryphon mountain, there's no such thing. Killed a mother trying to defend her young? great work, well done you - have a new unit recruit type. it just feels wrong.
the entire tone could be changed with a bit of reworking to the dialog (even driving off the mother gryphon, or stealing the eggs without killing her, feels slightly less unpleasant - even better, 'rescuing' her from the loyalist attackers from the north), or the level could be re-designed slightly.
it might sound like a small detail, but it's genuinely knocked my enjoyment of the campaign replay down a notch. maybe I'm being overly-sensitive. but I think if we're wanting the game to appeal to a wider audience and new young players, it's important to consider details like this.
anyway, just my opinion on this. others may beg to differ (that's what a forum is for, after all!)
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Re: Scenario 10: Gryphon Mountain
I felt that way until I was working on HttT a couple years ago and did the to-dos. Now, I'd say the scene is more like your good old-fashioned AD&D alignment check. You're playing good, you did evil. Be glad you don't have any Paladins in the party.
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Re: Scenario 10: Gryphon Mountain
It's all up to you. You can decide not to attack them, you don't lose if you don't kill them. You even have the option to defend the gryphons from the invading enemy army (which has a suitable reward to go with it).mikeanthony wrote: ↑March 4th, 2020, 7:55 pm I'm just replaying the HttT campaign, and re-discovering this mission. I must say, it makes me uncomfortable. HttT is the classic 'good vs bad' campaign, where the good guys are genuinely good old fashioned heroes and the baddies are clearly on the bad end of the spectrum. Which sits well; it's what you want in a classic swords-n-sorcery epic, at least for the main flagship campaign behind wesnoth.
but replaying this mission, I was struck by how 'off' it feels being asked to kill a mother gryphon for reward; I mean, even trolls and goblins are made to be characters we sympathise with in other campaigns, which works well. Noble, beautiful gryphons are unquestionably on the 'good' end of the inherent moral spectrum in such a fantasy universe - and killing mother-anythings to abduct their young is just... wrong.
I get that some stories need morally questionable stuff. The legend of wesmere mission with Landar slaughtering the saurians feels grim, but it fits the story; you know that this is a 'bad' thing happening even as you're playing through it, and there's a comeupance and a setting-to-rights as the story progresses. With gryphon mountain, there's no such thing. Killed a mother trying to defend her young? great work, well done you - have a new unit recruit type. it just feels wrong.
the entire tone could be changed with a bit of reworking to the dialog (even driving off the mother gryphon, or stealing the eggs without killing her, feels slightly less unpleasant - even better, 'rescuing' her from the loyalist attackers from the north), or the level could be re-designed slightly.
it might sound like a small detail, but it's genuinely knocked my enjoyment of the campaign replay down a notch. maybe I'm being overly-sensitive. but I think if we're wanting the game to appeal to a wider audience and new young players, it's important to consider details like this.
anyway, just my opinion on this. others may beg to differ (that's what a forum is for, after all!)
So really, it is indeed an alignment check.
Re: Scenario 10: Gryphon Mountain
Various posts in here seem to be hinting that there is more to it than what the scenario objectives (in 1.14.9) say. My feedback on that (if true) is that I do not (at all) like that. BfW is a strategy game and not an RPG or point-and-click adventure. If the scenario objective is misleading then it turns into some sort of guess-the-scripter game. I am playing BfW because I like strategy games and not point-and-click-and-die-and-reload-and-click-elsewhere-etc adventures.
(And about the alignment check perspective. Here you are sort of following a story told by the scripters and not playing your own character so I dont think its a good comparison. But for me the aforementioned part is the main issue.)
(And about the alignment check perspective. Here you are sort of following a story told by the scripters and not playing your own character so I dont think its a good comparison. But for me the aforementioned part is the main issue.)
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Re: Scenario 10: Gryphon Mountain
What?! I'd never looked at the code for this level (generally don't, it spoils the gameplay), and every time I've played, even on lower difficulties, the gryphon units get wiped out by the loyalists so quickly; I just did a save-load to ensure that the gryphons survive this time, and sure enough "something" has happened... (I'm not looking in the source, and no spoilers please! I'd advanced a couple of levels but I'm re-winding to play from this point to find out what the "something" is!
thankyou, you've just made my re-play through this campaign a lot more interesting and satisfying! Although there was no way at all to know that outcome was there, perhaps it should be hinted at in the dialog (although saying that, it might be very frustrating to tell the player about an outcome that might be impossible to prevent, given that whether the gryphons survive seems to depend entirely upon the random recruitment and movement of the AI loyalist team; if they really go for the gryphons and get a few lucky hits then there is absolutely nothing you can get there quick enough to make a difference, as far as I can tell?)
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Re: Scenario 10: Gryphon Mountain
Do NOT look at the code, that probably won't help.
DO look at the terrain.
You have units which can make it up the mountain before she's in danger. The trick is timing; don't waste a turn: get moving as quickly as possible, choose your path carefully. It's better to arrive in time, too weak, with reenforcements due shortly, that to arrive to a warm carcass.
DO look at the terrain.
You have units which can make it up the mountain before she's in danger. The trick is timing; don't waste a turn: get moving as quickly as possible, choose your path carefully. It's better to arrive in time, too weak, with reenforcements due shortly, that to arrive to a warm carcass.
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Re: Scenario 10: Gryphon Mountain
1. Normal/Wesnoth 1.15.12+devContent Feedback wrote: ↑December 7th, 2005, 4:03 pm (1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
2. 8/10
3. crystal clear
4. 7/10
5. The race against time to see who got that side 3 leader first.
6. 6/10
7. Make the mother gryphon recruit Young Gryphons, or Gyphons?..Or, have the mother one be an Elder Gryphon (level 3)?
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Re: Scenario 10: Gryphon Mountain
Can someone who is more experienced or who knows how to read the code (I don't even know how to access it, and wouldn't understand what I was looking at if I did!) confirm whether there is some kind of reward for finishing this scenario without the mother gryphon dying (i.e. defending her from the Loyalists)? You don't need to say what it is, just whether it exists. I read the last couple posts here and then replayed this scenario to finish while keeping her alive, and it made no difference that I could see, but I would like to know whether it has some effect on events later in the campaign.
As for how to accomplish keeping her alive, what worked for me was to send kalenz and delfador on a mad dash immediately, not even slowing down to tag any villages, then immediately recalling my fastest units and similarly just racing for her all out. Scouts are not the only options for this. Shydes or Sylphs can fly and get there very fast, and if you have the loyal footpad from Isle of the Damned he will also do the trick. I managed it without too much luck, although I did lose a Shyde throwing her in front of the mother gryphon at a key point.
(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
1.16.2 Challenging
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
2 just to win, 5 to kill the mother gryphon first, 7 to keep the mother gryphon alive
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear, UNLESS there is really a secret reward for keeping the mother gryphon alive, in which case not at all clear. ANY hint about this in the dialogue would be appreciated.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Reasonable. The Gryphons are basically a secret weapon that you have to scramble to either get for yourself or at least deny to your enemy.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Timing. The Loyalists really rush the mother Gryphon, and especially with their ogres they get there fast, so I had to restart several times to find the optimal way to get enough troops there fast enough.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
10. I like these scenarios with multiple victory conditions. Just winning is very easy, and all the villages and level 2 units lets you get a bunch of xp and gold if you had a hard time in the last scenario. But if you want a challenge, you can go for the kind of 'puzzle' of how to beat the Loyalists to the gryphon. The unusual terrain also forces some different unit choices. This campaign is so long, so you develop this ridiculous recall list, and it's nice to get these more 'narrow' scenarios that force you to use some of your 'second string' units. I realized at the start that a lot of my most powerful units only had 5 movement points, so I had to recall some quick lvl 1's that I had totally forgotten about.
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
IF there is a secret reward for keeping the gryphon alive, then add some hint about it in the dialogue. IF there isn't a secret reward, then add one in! Like I said, I like the scenarios where the player can opt to modify the difficulty for themselves by offering different optional victory conditions, since it increases replay value.
As for how to accomplish keeping her alive, what worked for me was to send kalenz and delfador on a mad dash immediately, not even slowing down to tag any villages, then immediately recalling my fastest units and similarly just racing for her all out. Scouts are not the only options for this. Shydes or Sylphs can fly and get there very fast, and if you have the loyal footpad from Isle of the Damned he will also do the trick. I managed it without too much luck, although I did lose a Shyde throwing her in front of the mother gryphon at a key point.
(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
1.16.2 Challenging
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
2 just to win, 5 to kill the mother gryphon first, 7 to keep the mother gryphon alive
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear, UNLESS there is really a secret reward for keeping the mother gryphon alive, in which case not at all clear. ANY hint about this in the dialogue would be appreciated.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Reasonable. The Gryphons are basically a secret weapon that you have to scramble to either get for yourself or at least deny to your enemy.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Timing. The Loyalists really rush the mother Gryphon, and especially with their ogres they get there fast, so I had to restart several times to find the optimal way to get enough troops there fast enough.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
10. I like these scenarios with multiple victory conditions. Just winning is very easy, and all the villages and level 2 units lets you get a bunch of xp and gold if you had a hard time in the last scenario. But if you want a challenge, you can go for the kind of 'puzzle' of how to beat the Loyalists to the gryphon. The unusual terrain also forces some different unit choices. This campaign is so long, so you develop this ridiculous recall list, and it's nice to get these more 'narrow' scenarios that force you to use some of your 'second string' units. I realized at the start that a lot of my most powerful units only had 5 movement points, so I had to recall some quick lvl 1's that I had totally forgotten about.
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
IF there is a secret reward for keeping the gryphon alive, then add some hint about it in the dialogue. IF there isn't a secret reward, then add one in! Like I said, I like the scenarios where the player can opt to modify the difficulty for themselves by offering different optional victory conditions, since it increases replay value.
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Re: Scenario 10: Gryphon Mountain
(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
1.16.8
Highest
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
I played it twice, once in a run that rolled the Valley with a mage-ball, and once in a run that couldn't so I lost units in the Valley. The difficulty varied. It also varies depending on what you have available to recall.
The mage-ball run that aced the Valley found this map to be a 4. Not exactly a cakewalk due to the terrain and the troop quality on the other side, but not terribly difficult.
The run that scraped by in the Valley with losses found the place t be a 6. Luckily that run had an Outrider and a Shyde so getting the Griffins only cost it the Outrider, but the opposing troops proved quite a bit more difficult. Without having two units undeterred by mountains, it would've been even harder.
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear.
If there's a "save the gryphons" option like some of the feedback suggests, then that was not mentioned at all.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Fair enough.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Getting to the griffins in time would've been, but I happened to have appropriate troops on both runs. Realizing that two leveled riders or an lvl 3 rider and a shyde are enough counts, as realizing this lets you recall/recruit more appropriate troops for handling the opponent, and also choose a much more favorable battleground than if you rush everything to the centre and end up fighting Ogres in the mountains.
Choosing the right approach path, unit composition and pacing against the enemy was a challenge I actually failed, and I think I could've done much, much better on that front, as I ended up marching a ball of Elvish Heroes with a healer and a champion straight towards the enemy along the right path, ignoring the cavalry that he sent along the left path to pick up all the villages. I did score the objective, but ended up with no carryover gold, and I'm sure a smarter approach would've let me fight the opponent on two fronts, and do much better financially.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
Quite. It's easily the most enjoyable map in the campaign so far. As long as you've got something to hit the gryphon with for little investment (and there seem to be multiple approaches that work), the map offers a challenging roster of enemy troops and a LOT of replayability and strategic/tactical choice.
10 with options to hit the gryphon available for recall, a bit less without I think.
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Nothing comes to mind, it felt great to play. I'd change multiple previous scenarios (map 2, siege, valley) that failed to be properly fun where this one succeeds, to be more like this one.
1.16.8
Highest
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
I played it twice, once in a run that rolled the Valley with a mage-ball, and once in a run that couldn't so I lost units in the Valley. The difficulty varied. It also varies depending on what you have available to recall.
The mage-ball run that aced the Valley found this map to be a 4. Not exactly a cakewalk due to the terrain and the troop quality on the other side, but not terribly difficult.
The run that scraped by in the Valley with losses found the place t be a 6. Luckily that run had an Outrider and a Shyde so getting the Griffins only cost it the Outrider, but the opposing troops proved quite a bit more difficult. Without having two units undeterred by mountains, it would've been even harder.
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear.
If there's a "save the gryphons" option like some of the feedback suggests, then that was not mentioned at all.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Fair enough.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Getting to the griffins in time would've been, but I happened to have appropriate troops on both runs. Realizing that two leveled riders or an lvl 3 rider and a shyde are enough counts, as realizing this lets you recall/recruit more appropriate troops for handling the opponent, and also choose a much more favorable battleground than if you rush everything to the centre and end up fighting Ogres in the mountains.
Choosing the right approach path, unit composition and pacing against the enemy was a challenge I actually failed, and I think I could've done much, much better on that front, as I ended up marching a ball of Elvish Heroes with a healer and a champion straight towards the enemy along the right path, ignoring the cavalry that he sent along the left path to pick up all the villages. I did score the objective, but ended up with no carryover gold, and I'm sure a smarter approach would've let me fight the opponent on two fronts, and do much better financially.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
Quite. It's easily the most enjoyable map in the campaign so far. As long as you've got something to hit the gryphon with for little investment (and there seem to be multiple approaches that work), the map offers a challenging roster of enemy troops and a LOT of replayability and strategic/tactical choice.
10 with options to hit the gryphon available for recall, a bit less without I think.
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Nothing comes to mind, it felt great to play. I'd change multiple previous scenarios (map 2, siege, valley) that failed to be properly fun where this one succeeds, to be more like this one.
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Re: Scenario 10: Gryphon Mountain
Versions 1.12 to 1.16 Easy and Medium. This feedback relates to 1.16 Medium,(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
This is a 4 if you're happy to lose critical units, 9 if not.(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
Very clear.(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
It's a bit contrived, but meh, whatever.(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
I have a major issue with this scenario and I don't know whether this is the way the game is designed or the way the AI is programmed but this is a scenario where the player gets cheated in some way. Usually there is one scenario in a campaign where the odds are stacked so heavily against you that you end up losing key or critical levelled units. This is not just specific to HTTT, it happens in most campaigns.(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Other examples of these programmed 'cheat' scenarios include High Pass in The Hammer of Thursagan where you have a blacked out map so need your only Gryphon Rider, which you cannot replace, but face other Gryphons and randomly spawning Trolls right up front at your keep. The Desert of Death is another similar scenario where you have waves of Giant Scorpions coming at you en masse, and here you have Gryphon Mountain.
The bonus objective is to kill the Mother Gryphon before the Loyalist enemies to 'win' the ability to recruit Gryphon Riders in later scenarios. You get the Mother Gryphon in the middle of hilly terrain surrounded by mountains. The Mother Gryphon is surrounded by three sleeping Gryphons.
So you're racing the Loyalist enemies to be the first to kill the Mother Gryphon to win the ability to recruit Gryphon Riders from a later scenario, Plunging Into Darkness. While you're racing towards this Mother Gryphon the enemy Loyalist leader, a General is sending Level 2 Loyalist units your way and also towards the Mother Gryphon - Dragoons, Longbowmen, Swordsmen, Pikemen, Duellists and also Level 2 Ogres.
To win this scenario and kill the Mother Gryphon you need sufficiently high level recalls which are quick enough to get to the Mother Gryphon before the Loyalist enemies. Please keep in mind you cannot send Knights or Paladins because they cannot move through mountains. To stand a chance you've got to recall and move your high level units to the Mother Gryphon together with Delfador and Kalenz from the first turn - and high level means Level 3 with the quick trait.
The Gryphon Mountain Death Trap
Now see here's the thing. Ogres move fast on Mountains and they deal a lot of melee damage with cleavers. Gryphon Riders also deal blade damage which I think is 13-2, they have 50% defense everywhere and they're more mobile than any other unit including an Elvish Scout and quick Lancer. Ogres are supported by other Level 2 Loyalist units - Duellists, Swordsmen, Pikemen, Longbowmen, and so on.
The other thing here is that whenever a Loyalist unit attacks or awakens a Sleeping Gryphon, if the Gryphon is not killed then on the next turn it will attack one of your units. Always. Always. Always. This means that the Loyalist units can attack both the Gryphons and your units, but the Gryphons will only attack your units, never the Loyalist units.
This means that if you win the ability to recruit Gryphon Riders your units, including Delfador and Kalenz, will be caught in a death trap surrounded by Ogres, Gryphons and other Level 2 Loyalist units. Meanwhile down on the ground the other Loyalist units will be waiting for you as you come off the mountain - Dragoons, Longbowmen, and so on. There's maybe a level 1 Mage, but not a Level 2, because see your units have some arcane resistance.
You don't have to take my word for this. Go play the Gryphon Mountain scenario for yourself and see what happens. See if you can win the ability without the odds being stacked unfairly against you.
Now please keep in mind that most recently I sent Delfador and Kalenz to the Mother Gryphon with a Level 3 Highwayman, Level 3 loyal Fugitive Delurin, my loyal Elvish Marksman Nioden and a quick resilient Elvish Archer. Fortunately Level 3 Konrad was still in the keep and I had a quick Elvish Scout as a distraction in the south eastern corner. I sent the outlaw units as Gryphons are vulnerable to impact and Highwayman deals 14-4 melee impact damage and is the only unit that can reliably take out or damage a Gryphon. I also had a small force of Elvish Archers, Shamen and Fighters moving round the west of the mountain.
Nioden killed the Mother Gryphon so I narrowly won the ability but my forces were almost wiped out including Nioden and Delfador was down to 4HP in the south east corner. One of the Ogres couldn't get to Delfador so the Ogre woke a Gryphon which joined the attack of a Swordsman, Ogre and Duellist. Kalenz was badly injured and had to flee to the north west villages or he too would have been a goner.
I'm going to give this a 2 charitably and that is in recognition of the many hours of enjoyment I've got from Wesnoth and recognition of the hard work of so many contributors all over the planet. But if I were new to Wesnoth the game would have been deleted and I would have found another game to play.(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
I don't mind difficult scenarios or campaigns even. I will admit that I'm not a seasoned or experienced player but come on, let's be real here. It states explicitly that this is a novice campaign and then you go and do stuff like this? Do the game designers and those who maintain this campaign understand the sheer frustration of say a relatively inexperienced player getting so far into a campaign only to see so many levelled units slaughtered in a way you don't understand and cannot prepare for. Ever wonder why people save load?
Oh sure I can save load, download modifications such as a Slider Mod, or even slip into Debug and create fresh units, but all that's such a buzzkill. There's nothing worse than to complete a scenario feeling as if you've been cheated.
If it wasn't for a loyal Fugitive and Highwayman I would have been defeated and would have quit the campaign. Are Gryphon Riders so vitally important to the campaign? I mean you have Elvish Shydes and Sylphs which can also fly and Elvish Sylphs deal a lot of damage.(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
The way I understand it HTTT is about the Rebels faction with Horsemen and Thieves thrown in. I would replace the whole scenario with another one and maybe offer the ability to recruit outlaw units instead of Gryphons so you'd end up with both the Rebels and Knalgan Alliance factions.
Gryphon Riders are nice to have but are not necessary to any other scenario apart from the scenario where you're rushing across a battlefield to reach the Northern Elves.
Re: Scenario 10: Gryphon Mountain
(1) Challenging (=Champion=Hardest) in 1.14.17 on permadeathContent Feedback wrote: (1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
(2) 7 (8th most difficult = 16th easiest)
... [Difficult] 2, 16, 14, 4, 9, 6, 5b, 10, 13, 12, 23, 8, 7, 3, 15, 17, 19c, 22, 1, 20b, 11, 24, 18 [Easy]
(3) Very clear
(4) It may sound more natural if Delfador or Kalenz suggested stealing Gryphon eggs. Konrad can be a bit more naive at this point of the campaign.
(5) Killing the Mother Gryphon safely and consistently required me to bring up 2 quick Elvish Sylphs because it was necessary to kill it on turn 5 instead of 6 (Run 3).
(6) 5 (13th most fun = 11th most boring)
... [Fun] 2, 1, 6, 9, 5b, 4, 16, 15, 23, 3, 12, 14, 10, 24, 13, 8, 7, 19c, 20b, 11, 17, 22, 18 [Boring]
(7) None
YouTube Link: Run 1 Run 2 Run 3
Walkthrough: HttT walkthrough (hardest, permadeath, v1.14.17) + General campaign guides (Replays for all scenarios can be downloaded from here.)
Re: Scenario 10: Gryphon Mountain
v. 1.16.10What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Lord / Challenging
Winning the scenario is around 3; trying to get the gryphon eggs bumps it up to around 6.How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
Mostly clear. The condition for getting the eggs is a bit confusing – I would expect that you need to move a unit into the nest to pick them up, but apparently you just instantly get them as soon as the mother gryphon dies. There's also some rumors about a "third outcome" that might occur if you don't attack the gryphons and the enemy does, but that isn't indicated in the dialogue and the exact conditions for achieving it are murky.How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Not clear. It feels massively out-of-character for Konrad to suddenly become so bloodthirsty toward the noble gryphons and cheerfully rush off to kill their mother, on a harebrained scheme with no justification or background whatsoever. And for his advisors to just casually nod and say, OK, we could do that. A bit of revision might be useful here, like maybe we lasso and catch the gryphons (like the kings of old did) instead of killing them; or the gryphons agree to join up if we successfully scale the mountain; or these are Bad gryphons who have betrayed the gryphon clan; or ... something.How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
There's not going to be any holdover cash after the previous Valley of Death scenario, so you are working with thin forces. Some of the enemy units are faster than yours in the mountains, and it's quite likely that they will get to the gryphons before you do. If you're pushing hard to get the eggs there's a good chance your forward units will end up cut off and surrounded by powerful enemies. (On that note, if you do get the eggs, and then the enemy kills your unit that got the eggs, shouldn't you then lose the eggs?) In addition, once the gryphons wake up they may fly off and attack anywhere – so you may think one is fighting the enemy that assaulted it, and then suddenly it decides to swoop all the way across the mountain and attack innocent old you instead, while leaving the enemy a free path.What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
3 – It's a bit frustrating how getting to the eggs (and then surviving) is almost completely luck, depending on what troops the enemy recruits, how much they dally around grabbing villages, what the gryphons decide to do once they wake up, etc. There's almost no skill involved in who gets to the eggs first, so it's like the whole scenario objective is just a toss of the dice.How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
In addition the story feels a bit sour, because the eggs are clearly useful and Konrad is clearly excited about getting them, but at the same time the whole thing is sleazy and totally, inexplicably out of character for him. And there are never any regrets or negative consequences to this. I do like how it is another easy "rebuilding" scenario that manages to incorporate unique challenges rather than being boring (similar to the Crossroads in that regard).
I would suggest revising the objectives and text a bit so that it is not so dissonant; like I mentioned perhaps we are going to lasso the gryphons rather than murder them, and after catching them we will be able to train up their young for riders.What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Also to avoid pointless frustration and reloading, perhaps make the gryphons a bit easier to reach, like move the starting camp closer to the mountain, or slow down the enemy units somehow. It would be better if accomplishing the gryphon objective were more about a difficult combat challenge, rather than just random depending on the enemy recruitment and actions.
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About the Overall Campaign:
The maps and storyline here are well-made and polished, though not as completely epic as some of the other campaigns. I like that it is lengthy, giving you time to develop your army, and gradually introduces many different terrains and unit types. This seems like a great beginner campaign since it's fairly easy and the early scenarios are framed as a kind of mentoring environment for the young hero. (However, it's a bit strange that some of the basic dialogue tips, like "hey, loyal units don't require upkeep!" are just now arriving, after I've already played through several previous campaigns without that advice.) There are some glitches that can come up in the Scepter of Fire scenario, and some of the princess-related dialogue around scenarios 17–21 felt a bit confusing and unbelievable (more specific comments in the relevant threads). This campaign is very close to full marks, but due to those few lingering issues and the lack of any real epic blow-you-away maps I'm going to rate it 4 out of 5.