Costs for level 2 & 3 (& 4) units

Post by **fmunoz** » October 15th, 2005, 2:23 pm

A good way to do it is just change the cost a bit at a time...
(maybe 1/4 of the differece of the new cost from the former one)
thus campaign developers have the time to check if the changes breaks too many things and to get feedback about it.

Post by **turin** » October 15th, 2005, 2:30 pm

ANY changes made to the cost of the units will make it need rebalancing. Thus, it makes more sense to just make all the changes at once, instead of dragging it out and having to rebalance each scenario three times, not once.

Now, really, playing through a campaign while rebalancing it takes a bit over an hour of work+playtime per scenario. So, rebalancing HttT will only take ~25 hours, which is about 3 weeks of only playing in your free time... I realize this WILL disrupt the balancing for a month or two (the time it will take to do this for all official campaigns and maintained UMCs)... but it will be worth it, because it will make Age of Heroes actually balanced. And, it will make balancing for single player actually easier in the long run. Right now, I have to give enemy elvish AIs about 100 extra gold if I want them to be equal in power with the enemy orcish AIs. That is not a Good Thing.

Elvish_Pillager · Post by **Elvish_Pillager** » October 15th, 2005, 3:05 pm

turin wrote:I don't have the authority to commit them. AFAIK, very few people do... basically, the multiplayer developers, and then the senior developers. Also, some unit costs have changed since this was last updated. Maybe you should run it again, and post those as the definite ones to use...

Easier said than done! Fortunately, it was not hard to hack around the problems caused by WML changes.

The comments refer to changes I've made and are reflected in the shown cost.

Code: Select all

           Longbowman: 30
        Master Bowman: 46
              Dragoon: 34
             Cavalier: 48
          Necromancer: 28
                 Lich: 45 #+3 due to resistances, poison immunity, drain
        Dark Sorcerer: 40 #+2 due to Plague
           Fire Drake: 35
        Inferno Drake: 51
          Drake Flare: 37 #+6 due to L2 leadership
     Drake Flameheart: 56 #+12 due to L3 leadership
      Drake Gladiator: 29
       Drake Enforcer: 40
        Drake Slasher: 31
         Drake Warden: 46
        Drake Warrior: 30
    Drake Blademaster: 47
            Sky Drake: 25
      Hurricane Drake: 35
   Dwarvish Steelclad: 32 #+6 due to resistances
        Dwarvish Lord: 54 #+6 due to resistances
    Dwarvish Stalwart: 27
    Dwarvish Sentinel: 38
Dwarvish Thunderguard: 30
 Dwarvish Dragonguard: 46
   Dwarvish Berserker: 33
        Elvish Ranger: 41 #+10 due to Ambush
       Elvish Avenger: 65 #+10 due to Ambush
      Elvish Marksman: 40 #+4 due to Marksman
  Elvish Sharpshooter: 55 #+4 due to Marksman
       Elvish Captain: 32 #+6 due to L2 leadership
       Elvish Marshal: 55 #+12 due to L3 leadership
          Elvish Hero: 31
      Elvish Champion: 56
         Elvish Rider: 35 #+1 due to defense in village
      Elvish Outrider: 48 #+2 due to defense in village
         Elvish Druid: 39 #+8 due to cures
         Elvish Shyde: 52 #+18 due to cures, defense, movment
     Elvish Sorceress: 41 #Incalculable, but no change
   Elvish Enchantress: 50 #ditto
         Elvish Sylph: 67 #ditto
              Duelist: 32
       Master at Arms: 44
               Outlaw: 28
               Wraith: 40 #+8 due to drain, -6 due to resistances
              Spectre: 53 #+10 due to drain, -6 due to resistances
               Shadow: 40 #+10 due to BACKSTAB!!!
           Nightgaunt: 52 #+15 due to BACKSTAB!!!
           Necrophage: 24
       Gryphon Master: 30
        Shock Trooper: 35
          Iron Mauler: 50
               Knight: 40
              Paladin: 52 #+6 due to Heals, -2 due to Holy
         Grand Knight: 58 #
               Lancer: 38 #-4 due to third strike
           White Mage: 44 #+12 due to cures
        Mage of Light: 64 #+16 due to cures and Illuminates
             Red Mage: 36
            Arch Mage: 54
           Great Mage: 72
          Silver Mage: 61 #+20 due to Teleport
    Mermaid Priestess: 42 #+12 due to cures
      Mermaid Diviner: 57 #+16 due to cures and Illuminates
  Mermaid Enchantress: 33
        Mermaid Siren: 52
       Merman Warrior: 30
        Merman Triton: 43
       Merman Hoplite: 38 #+12 due to resistance and Steadfast
      Merman Spearman: 27
    Merman Javelineer: 48
     Merman Netcaster: 38 #+15 due to Slow
     Merman Entangler: 53 #+15 due to Slow
         Naga Warrior: 27
        Naga Myrmidon: 48
   Orcish Crossbowman: 26
       Orcish Slurbow: 43
        Orcish Slayer: 37
       Orcish Warrior: 26
       Orcish Warlord: 56
              Trapper: 27
     Saurian Ambusher: 30 #+5 since weapons are so much deadlier with Skirmish
      Saurian Flanker: 46 #+10 since weapons are so much deadlier with Skirmish
    Saurian Icecaster: 27
   Saurian Soothsayer: 29 #+8 due to Cures
           Lieutenant: 35 #+6 due to L2 leadership, -5 due to overcosted Sergeant
              General: 54 #+12 due to L3 leadership, -5 due to overcosted Sergeant
        Grand Marshal: 66 #+18 due to L4 leadership, -5 due to overcosted Sergeant
             Revenant: 28
                Draug: 40
           Deathblade: 35
         Bone Shooter: 26
         Soul Shooter: 38
            Swordsman: 24 #+2 due to resistances, -3 due to non-first strike
          Royal Guard: 43 #+2 due to resistances, -3 due to non-first strike
              Pikeman: 25 #+2 due to resistances
           Halbardier: 42 #+2 due to resistances
           Javelineer: 23
                Rogue: 24 #+4 because of the power of Backstab
             Assassin: 44 #+12 because of the Backstab's power, and of Poison
               Bandit: 27
                Troll: 29
        Troll Warrior: 42
     Troll Rocklobber: 27
        Goblin Knight: 32
       Direwolf Rider: 41
      Goblin Pillager: 28
           Elder Wose: 31
         Ancient Wose: 48
                 Ogre: 33

wisdomless · Post by **wisdomless** » October 15th, 2005, 3:55 pm

Is that all precise math? Or just kinda winging it (in a structured way)?

Post by **turin** » October 15th, 2005, 3:57 pm

wisdomless wrote:Is that all precise math? Or just kinda winging it (in a structured way)?

Read the rest of the thread and you'll see the algorithm he uses to get the costs.

And, for future reference, at least make it appear that you read part of the thread before posting in it.

wisdomless · Post by **wisdomless** » October 15th, 2005, 4:03 pm

I did read it.

Shadow: 40 #+10 due to BACKSTAB!!!
Nightgaunt: 52 #+15 due to BACKSTAB!!!

Those don't match up.
And anyone can randomly asign valuses to something such as leadership, ambush and marksman (and use the same value over and over). I was wondering if the method for getting those values was mathmatical.

Post by **turin** » October 15th, 2005, 4:05 pm

Yes thoes do match up. Backstab is more valuable if you do more damage.

The values for backstab, marksman, leadership, etc, were AFAIK assigned by EP, not a mathematical system. However, that doesn't indicate anything about their validity.

wisdomless · Post by **wisdomless** » October 15th, 2005, 4:08 pm

turin wrote:Yes thoes do match up. Backstab is more valuable if you do more damage.

Alrighty

turin wrote:The values for backstab, marksman, leadership, etc, were AFAIK assigned by EP, not a mathematical system.

That's what I wanted to know... Thanks.

Elvish_Pillager · Post by **Elvish_Pillager** » October 15th, 2005, 5:53 pm

Yeah, when I see a unit with an unaccounted ability, I generally move the cost to about what I think that unit should cost, and then use that value for all the units with that exact ability.

It's hardly an accurate mechanism, but, I'd like to think I'm not that bad at costing them individually either.

Elvish_Pillager · Post by **Elvish_Pillager** » October 15th, 2005, 6:52 pm

Another cool thing about revising the costs, is that they will actually represent the general effectiveness of the unit. This makes the AI better[1], and it can also be used in other ways, for instance you could make it so that the random leader picker refuses to pick leaders below the average cost. That way, it would automatically avoid giving players bad leaders.

[1] The AI determines by the cost of a unit the value of killing that unit.

Post by **Dave** » October 15th, 2005, 7:36 pm

Elvish Pillager, Turin,

I have discussed this with Dragonking and we agree that it is a good idea for us to make these changes in the trunk. Thank you for your hard work on this.

Turin, feel free to commit the changes at your convenience. It'd be appreciated if you could do a cursory review of campaigns to make sure the balance remains reasonable.

David

Elvish_Pillager · Post by **Elvish_Pillager** » October 16th, 2005, 11:04 am

I have now created a diff file of all the new costs. (based on Wesnoth 1.0) It is attached.

During its creation, I noticed that the following units had their costs stay the same, or actually increase. In theory, this means that these are the only level >1 units it's generally worthwhile to recruit currently. I however am suspicious of the ***'d ones.

Code: Select all

Dwarvish Sentinel (up 1)
Dwarvish Thunderguard (same)
Dwarvish Berserker (up 3)
Elvish Ranger (up 1)
***Elvish Rider (up 7)***
***Elvish Outrider (up 12)***
Spectre (up 9)
Shadow (up 10)
Nightgaunt (up 2)
Shock Trooper (up 5)
Knight (same)
***Orcish Slayer (up 12)***
Orcish Warrior (up 4)
Trapper (up 1)
Saurian Ambusher (up 2)
Saurian Flanker (up 1)
Saurian Soothsayer (same)
Revenant (up 3)
Deathblade (up 13)
Bone Shooter (up 2)
Soul Shooter (up 4)
Troll Warrior (up 6)
Goblin Knight (up 4)
Direwolf Rider (up 1)
Goblin Pillager (up 10) # This is even failing to account for its abilities!
Ogre (up 3)

The Elvish Riders did not seem so overpowered currently that their costs should go up that much; I think my formula is putting too much of a value to the speed increase, which is not much when it is already so high.

The other, the Orcish Slayer, is wrongly costed because it upgrades from the Orcish Assassin, but has a completely different purpose, since poison becomes so much less significant.

Also, I am highly suspicious of the costs of leadership units. I recently recruited a Grand Marshal for 150 gold, and it was well worth it; at 66 gold, less than half the price, it may be quite overpowered, if anyone actually gets to recruit it.

Post by **turin** » October 16th, 2005, 2:08 pm

OK, I'll commit. Before I do, though... do I have to do anything special to commit it only to the "unstable" branch of SVN?

About campaigns getting unbalanced; I suspect some will, but I'll go back and change the gold values accordingly. Those changes should only be in unstable as well...

Post by **Dave** » October 16th, 2005, 11:34 pm

turin wrote:OK, I'll commit. Before I do, though... do I have to do anything special to commit it only to the "unstable" branch of SVN?

"Unstable" is the trunk, and unless you have done a branch checkout, it is what you likely have on your system.

It is generally a good idea to know if you have the trunk or a branch checked out though.

David

Post by **turin** » October 16th, 2005, 11:38 pm

I only have trunk checked out. So, good, I did it right.

I've committed the changed, and changed some of the gold values in campaigns... however, I'm really not sure how much, if any, it will unbalance campaigns. All feedback is appreciated.

Also, a change of this magnitude is likely to unbalance almost all unofficial campaigns as well. So, it might be good to warn campaign developers to rebalance...