woses

[Dave]

Personally I like scouts how they are...

David

[Sangel]

As do I. The "full speed through forests" ability makes them very distinctive.

The Elvish units are nicely done right now; let's not mess up the current units when we can achieve the effect by messing around with their final unit (Horsemen, Wose, whatever we decide).

[cobretti]

Personally I like scouts how they are...

David

Me too. But what I am saying is the rebel faction needs some kind of rupture/good unit for grasslands, or it will remain as it is: With enough gold for both sides, rebels facing any other side are quite limited to waiting/defending in the forests until they build up a very large army. And if the other side builds it too, then it's nearly impossible to win[1] (although difficult to loose, too).

[1] That is, at least, what my experience in multiplayer shows to me.

[Neoriceisgood]

Rebels are bad attackers indeed, but if their castle is surrounded by forests I end in the conclusion that attacking them is suicide.
but whenever I play rebels and have to attack; I fall cause I have to move out of the forests.

[AT]

I would actually disagree with this. I played 2 games vs. Rebels yesterday, and both times they person won, crippled me with hit and run attacks and by stealing my villages and distracting my army with woses.
No offence meant, I would say that if you arn't winning with Rebels, maybe you're opponent is simply playing better, or your just having a bad day.

[cobretti]

I would actually disagree with this. I played 2 games vs. Rebels yesterday, and both times they person won, crippled me with hit and run attacks and by stealing my villages and distracting my army with woses.

Kind of terrain? Size of map? What was your faction? Preferred recruits?. Maybe it was not clear in the other post, but I'm talking about medium/large sized maps, with a fairly decent amount of villages. In such maps, losing three or four villages near the forests is not so dangerous to your economy, and you can recruit almost every turn.

And, about woses, I wouldn't call them distractions. I would call them 'easy levelling'

No offence meant, I would say that if you arn't winning with Rebels, maybe you're opponent is simply playing better, or your just having a bad day.

I'm not offended. I'm probably not an 'elite player', but I'm a fairly decent one, who have played multiplayer games many times, as I normally prefer them to campaigns, and the above feeling is not the result of a poorly played game, or terrible luck: It's an standing sensation forged along many games

[AT]

Ok, maybe I'm just bad
Anyhow, trying to get back to Woses... I've kinda lost my opinion... Any change gets my vote.


EDIT: Except Horseman. I still think giving rebels Horsemen is making them too strong, not matter what the 'historical' reason for them to have them.

[Dave]

IMO Rebels currently do okay outside of forest. They aren't as good in open land as Loyalists, but they are good enough to be competitive. Elvish Fighters and archers do around as well as other faction's footmen in open land. They will be in trouble if they are charged by horsemen when in the open, but if they can hold in villages during the daylight, they should be okay.

They're also okay in hills, although they really don't like mountains so much.

David

[Neoriceisgood]

Yeah, but I was facing undead

[cobretti]

Ok, maybe I'm just bad
Anyhow, trying to get back to Woses... I've kinda lost my opinion... Any change gets my vote.

I hope you are not offended now . Playstyle varies with most people, and some are better , or more experienced, in certain circunstances than others.

In a nearly 1:1 relation bettween elves and other factions (specially loyalists) in plains is, at least with the other side using heavy infantry/whatsoever, being in clear disadvantage, unless you have some level 2 units around. Once you get advantage (at least locally, say 2:1 for example) situation completely changes.

For Woses, I still have the same feeling: They look ok by themselves, but don't 'round' the rebel faction as horsemen do.

[telly]

What about some magic using skirmish unit for the elves? Could combine like thief stats with a 2-5 magic fire attack. Would give loyalists better options for like attacking villages and taking out units like heavy infantry and skeletons.

[Christophe33]

IMO Rebels currently do okay outside of forest. They aren't as good in open land as Loyalists, but they are good enough to be competitive. Elvish Fighters and archers do around as well as other faction's footmen in open land. They will be in trouble if they are charged by horsemen when in the open, but if they can hold in villages during the daylight, they should be okay.
David

I feel the elf faction does pretty well by itself in most situation as long as they have the horsemen with them in plain. If the horsemen were to be taken away I would rather have a new elf unit to replace than a wose.
You could either have something like elf phalanx (more heavilly armored than normal elf, equiped with spear and javelin) and/or a mounted elf unit more oriented toward fight but equipped with sword. They would be usefull in the era version of the multiplayer game.

They're also okay in hills, although they really don't like mountains so much.
David

While elf are slow in mountain, their defense on mountain (40% to be hit) is second only to dwarf.

[Darth Fool]

I'd rather have a new elvish unit then attach/keep either the woses or the horsemen with the elves. The problem is how to add them without unbalancing things or breaking key wesnothian cliches that help to differentiate the races. I am not sure that the elves really need another pierce attack with all their bow attacks, and I think it is good to not have every race have a spear carrying unit, so despite the temptation to the contrary, I think the new unit should not be a spearelf. Perhaps what is needed is a slow unit, say grove-master for now, that makes adjacent hexes act as if they were forests (or forests/X where X is the actual terrain there) for the purpose of defense and maybe movement. The movement bonus would not be too powerful since the grove-master would have had to have reached the hex in the first place. The ability to modify the defense of neighboring units could be pretty powerful, however so it would need some balancing...

[Sangel]

Modifying other unit's defense has been suggested (usually for a mage), but I think making hexes forest would be a little too powerful - that's a +30% bonus on Grassland, +40% on Water and Tundra!

[Darth Fool]

What if it only modified the terrain if the grove-master was in a village? It would make defending villages easier, but would still allow empty plains to be hard for elves to defend. It would of course be a little more compliicated to code, but not much. I'm not sure I like it myself, just brain-storming....