woses

[Sangel]

Having a ghost-forest spring up around a village while a grove-master was in it would be downright awesome in my opinion, if difficult to code.

[AT]

Maybe a less drastic unit for now? Perhaps a Elven Sentry.

Slow high defence , carrys a pole axe, does 5-3 is, melee only.

Good for defending towns, not for attacking. Would round out the Race nicely, i think.

[Jyhem]

Having a ghost-forest spring up around a village while a grove-master was in it would be downright awesome in my opinion, if difficult to code.

I love it. This is the kind of units which could help make Wesnoth unique.
Maybe as a level2 or level3 branch of the shaman ?

[Sangel]

Yes, as an alternate upgrade line for the Shaman a "Grovemaster" would work very nicely. It'd have to lose the "heal" ability, at least for the 2nd level though - otherwise it would probably be a little TOO powerful.

The Sentry idea is interesting, though 5-3 melee only is pathetic next to the Fighter's 5-4 AND 3-3. My suggested stats:

Elvish Sentry
Move 4, HP 34
Poleaxe 6-3 (Blade)
Resistances: Blade 10% Impact 20% Pierce 30% (all others normal elf)

It could have an upgrade line
Elvish Sentry -> Elvish Sentinel -> Elvish Guardian

[AT]

Elvish Sentry
Move 4, HP 34
Poleaxe 6-3 (Blade)
Resistances: Blade 10% Impact 20% Pierce 30% (all others normal elf)

It could have an upgrade line
Elvish Sentry -> Elvish Sentinel -> Elvish Guardian

I like that alot. Maybe add Defence in villages +10% or so. Any more votes for this?

[Jyhem]

Yes, as an alternate upgrade line for the Shaman a "Grovemaster" would work very nicely. It'd have to lose the "heal" ability, at least for the 2nd level though - otherwise it would probably be a little TOO powerful.

As long as the heal is not upgraded to cure, I'm not sure it's an issue.
Notice that as long as the GroveMaster is in town, nobody else gets cured. That's a bit like losing a village in exchange for a small forest.
Keeping "heal" will probably not unbalance it.

The Sentry idea is interesting,

It could have an upgrade line
Elvish Sentry -> Elvish Sentinel -> Elvish Guardian

I fail to see how it would be interesting.
Of course I would like to have a good defensive unit, as
Elf player, but if we follow that logic, all races end up
being played the same.
It doesn't even have a ranged attack. All elves have a ranged attack so far. That's how you can tell they're elves
This one will look like a loyalist unit disguised as an elf :-/

[AT]

Ok, but we're all agreed that its a big no to Wose?

[Neoriceisgood]

Actualy I like woses for one; but they still aren't the out of forest units the elves need, but with their ambush; and heavy hitting(not to mention blunt) they give the elves a great element of suprise tactics used for woses can for example be shamans sent out alone but surrounded by woses; when attacked by an unit they'll be completely surrounded by an entire army.

[cobretti]

I like Woses too, but with the above drawbacks, namely:
- Don't fit the strategical hole wiping horsemen off from rebels created (the most important, IMO)
- Far too easy to be hit. They should have at least one terrain with decent defense.
- Not balanced levelling. Right now, level 2 is better than level 3, or at least not worse.
- Graphics. The new Ancient Wose sprite doesn't fit with the other Wose graphics. If the unit stays in the game (I'll like that) the other graphics should be reworked.

[Dacyn]

Aggh.. 2 days without a connection....

and Konrad's faction also contains the Knalgan Alliance...
I have never really understood the rebels/loyalist distinction. The main difference seems to be that one has elves.

The difference is, the rebel faction konrad has through almost the entire campaign. The loyalists are the human armies of wesnoth.

Then any change to the Rebels should also change Konrad's army. I think Horsemen are one of the more useful and interesting campaign units, so we shouldn't get rid of them. And having Woses as a major part of the campaign would be weird IMO...

..has anybody thought about this? Do we want to change the explanation of the rebel faction? (havent read all posts yet)

[AT]

I do not think Storyline armies should (or even can in some cases) translate to the MP factions. If you look at almost every succesful game with both a good single player and Multiplayer, the Single has diffrent balance than the Muliplayer. Games that forget this end up with a hard single player (for instance Homeworld 1) and a boring mulitlpayer (for instance, Homeworld 1).

Edit:
In the campaign, Konrad ends up with a ragtag group of people fighting for various reasons, etc. In muliplayer, this is boring. It makes the Rebel army far too strong and too diverse.
With horseman, the rebels have all the 'fun units'. In single player, this is good; you have to play as the rebels. In MP, this is very very bad; we DONT want to make the Rebels the faction of choice, we want to to have serious weaknesses with respect to others. Currently, its pretty balanced. If we give it horseman back, I, personally, would never use any other race. And i kinda doubt anyone else would either.

[Dave]

With horseman, the rebels have all the 'fun units'.

I disagree. Orcish Assassins are fun and powerful with their poison ability. Troll Whelps and Lizardmen's ability to regenerate is fun. Gryphon Riders are fun with their speed and power. Heavy Infantry are fun with their strong resistance and brute strength.

That's not to say we should give Rebels back their Horsemen. I personally think they are competitive without Horsemen, even outside of forest.

David

[miyo]

Rebel's don't need horseman, if you want to play with horseman play with Loyalists. Woses bring nice twist in Rebel faction; Most of Rebel units are fast and have ranged... but lack crushing damage, now if you can live with Wose being slow you get the crushing attack which is oh-so-useful against e.g. skeletons.

I usually end up my main Rebel army build on Elvish Fighters, Elvish Archers and Elvish Shamans. Occassionally using Wose when it suits my tactics.

- Miyo

[Insinuator]

I quintuplet that position. Though they do have outrageously low defense.

[Dave]

Okay to try to make the Woses into an interesting, usable unit, this is what I propose:

- call the 1st level version a 'Wose'. Second level could perhaps be an 'Elder Wose', and third level an 'Ancient Wose'.
- give all versions 3 movement.
- give all versions 2 attacks.
- make the Woses do 13, 16, 20 damage per hit
- give the Woses the following resistance:

blunt: 60%
piercing: 60%
blade: 30%
fire: -20%
cold: 40%
holy: 20%

Make the Woses have between 20-30% defense on most terrain.

This would make them slow, but strong, and with great resistance against everything but fire. You'd really have to put alot of effort into taking one down. I don't think they'd be overpowered, but I do think they'd be useful because of their great strength.

Thoughts?

David