Races mating

[KK_r]

How come there isn't any half-orcs or halt-elfs? Is there perhaps a cultural explenation i Wesnoth?

[Dave]

There could be half-elves, but they certainly wouldn't be a significant enough creature to deserve their own specifically half-elven unit. There could perhaps be a specific character in a scenario that is half-elven though.

With respect to half orcs,

(1) no human would ever voluntarily mate with an orc
(2) orcs might very well rape humans, however we are not going to make that level of violence explicit in the game
(3) orcs and humans are different species, and conjugal relations between them do not produce offspring.

David

[KK_r]

Then the orcs should be declared as a specie not a race, isn't orc evil elves or something, or is that just tolkien?

[Dave]

Then the orcs should be declared as a specie not a race, isn't orc evil elves or something, or is that just tolkien?

Well, the term 'race' is very blurred when it comes to fantasy, and is far from biological definitions pertaining to the possibility of procreation. We also call the undead a race, and they certainly can't procreate with living creatures.

In Lord of the Rings/Tolkien, Orcs were once Elves who were twisted and made evil.

In Wesnoth, Orcs are not derived from Elves, they are simply seperate, evil creatures.

David

[Asmodai]

How come there isn't any half-orcs or halt-elfs? Is there perhaps a cultural explenation i Wesnoth?

That's actually an issue that kind of annoys me about other role playing games. Different fantasy races are technically supposed to be different species. Different species are, by definition, genetically incompatible for interbreeding. It's kind of confusing because the word "race" is used in these games instead of "species" and in the real world "race" typically means ethnic group within the human species (similar to "breed" for dogs.) They are not the same though because these ethnic groups often exist in fantasy games in addition to the species. For example the Elven species often contains a group of dark elves, high elves, wood elves, etc. If a human could have a child with an elf then it would have to be the same species which means a human would be just as related to a high elf as a wood elf is. Overall I prefer if the whole Half* (Half-Orc, Half-Elf, etc.) would stay out of fantasy settings but of course it IS Fantasy so anything is possible but that's my opinion.

[Dave]

How come there isn't any half-orcs or halt-elfs? Is there perhaps a cultural explenation i Wesnoth?

If a human could have a child with an elf then it would have to be the same species

It would only be the same species if the half-elf could then have a child of its own.

Donkeys and horses can have a child - a mule - but a mule cannot have children, and thus donkeys and horses are a different species.

If there were to be half-elves in Wesnoth, they would be unlikely to be able to have children of their own. If Elves and Humans were the same species, it would take very strong cultural restrictions to stop the clear distinction between elf and human from disappearing very quickly.

David

[methinks]

You're taking this too far into biology. Some different spieces can have offsprings, some cannot. Offspirings of those most likely are unable to have offsprings of their own. But it does not matter really.

Hey, have you seen an Ogre? How would it's DNA look like? I mean is it possible? CAn you explaing how does a mage produce his fireball? What about undead, walking corpses for example, how come they move?

Though it does too annoys me REALITY AND BIOLOGY is not an explanation here
Plus I think that elves and human are close enough to have regular kids that can have regular kids
We have to decide whether we want this. I'm unsure. Let's trade: no offsprings, but no guns too

[fmunoz]

Is the game goinfg to include any halfbreed...?
So where... is the level done? or the graphics? ....

Ok, guys, lets work, there are still too many things to do even without half breeds.

[Asmodai]

It would only be the same species if the half-elf could then have a child of its own.

I stand corrected. I don't think most rpg's that include halfbreeds make them sterile however and I remain convinced that adding them to this particular game doesn't provide any great improvement.

[Asmodai]

You're taking this too far into biology. Some different spieces can have offsprings, some cannot. Offspirings of those most likely are unable to have offsprings of their own.

I don't think it's too far into biology. Reproduction is a biological process. It's certainly better than discussing orc's raping humans. There is no "most likely" however in the offspring being sterile. The very definition of what a species is is that they cannot produce VIABLE offspring (I left off viable the first time.) If they CAN produce viable offspring then they are the same species.

Hey, have you seen an Ogre? How would it's DNA look like? I mean is it possible?

No I haven't seen an Ogre, and of course it wouldn't be possible because they aren't real. But I do know that if Ogre is a species then by definition while I can't tell you what an Ogre's DNA is I CAN tell you what an Ogre is NOT. It is not genetically compatible with humans (in terms of creating viable offspring)

CAn you explaing how does a mage produce his fireball? What about undead, walking corpses for example, how come they move?

That's easy, both of the above occur because of magic. They don't happen in the real world because we don't have magic. We do have reproduction in the real world and so while we can't give specific details of magical processes we can give details on biological ones. Of course this IS just a game. So if we want to include halfbreeds that can reproduce we can just say they do so by magic and be done with it. I personally don't think that would add anything to the game though so I'd prefer to just leave the halfbreeds out.

We have to decide whether we want this. I'm unsure. Let's trade: no offsprings, but no guns too

I vote no halfbreeds, no guns. But the decision isn't mind to make

[methinks]

Well actually I wasn't defending halfbreeds :]
I am undecided. I think that Ogres are impossible to create via DNA as are some other suckorz. So bilogy is NOT explanation here, heh. That was my point.
BTW nice to have someone at my side, heh :]

[KK_r]

Actually, if two species CAN mate and get viable offspring but don't do it because off their behaivor they are still different species. How come the elves and humans isn't friends? I prefer if the humans and elves are different species 'cause I'm always getting annoyed with games not caring about how things really works. Magic is another matter though it's something that is made up and is not present in the real world.

[Circon]

'cause I'm always getting annoyed with games not caring about how things really works. Magic is another matter though it's something that is made up.

Verisimilitude, not reality, is the key here. The quote above illustrated a good point: Exclude magic from logic even though its unreal, because magic is a near-default of fantasy gaming.
Veri-blah is that something works well enough to be acceptable and has enough reasons to be plausible. This has nothing to do with reality.

Games seldom care about how things *work*, in RL that is, but if you (also) meant games that don't care about *having internal laws and adhering to them* then I totally agree with you: pure irritation.



Wandering off a little... Tolkien, incidentally, has elves and humans being of the same species, because Elwing(elf) and Earendel(human) got married, had two sons(Elros and Elrond), and Elros was the ancestor of the whole bunch'o'royals all the way down to Aragorn.

[miyo]

Wandering off a little... Tolkien, incidentally, has elves and humans being of the same species, because Elwing(elf) and Earendel(human) got married, had two sons(Elros and Elrond), and Elros was the ancestor of the whole bunch'o'royals all the way down to Aragorn.

Did I hear someone say Peredhil. We have to consider the possibility that Tolkien might not have followed rules of biology...

"Elros and Elrond, the two children of Earendil and Elwing. They were called Peredhil because of their extremely mixed Adan and Eldarin blood. At the end of the First Age, the Peredhil were given the choice of which race they wished to belong to. Elros chose to remain with the Edain, and he was given by the Valar a life-span many times that of lesser Men. Elrond became en Elven-lord of great power and wisdom. Elrond's children were also given the choice of which kindred they wished to belong to; the choice was to be made when Elrond left Middle-earth. All three of his children chose mortality" - Robert Foster: The Complete Guide to Middle-Earth

When Valar becomes involved... the rules of physics, biology, etc might not apply anymore.

- Miyo

[Sithrandel]

Different species are, by definition, genetically incompatible for interbreeding.

Can't resist putting my old, dusty biological hat on for this one... not true. Genetic incompatibility for interbreeding is not the standard definition of species. Species can and often do interbreed with one another and have viable offspring. Similarly there are well documented cases of breeding within a species not being possible.

It may be a useful rule of thumb for mammals, but the second you look beyond that (entire plant kingdom perhaps ) it breaks down.

There is no simple definition of species, if there were then taxonomists wouldn't be arguing all the time

Of course soon taxonomists will be so extinct / so archaic that we could accurately propose one as a unit