--- Log opened Mo Okt 27 00:00:54 2008
20081027 00:31:09<       CIA-41> ai0867 * r30391 /trunk/src/playmp_controller.cpp: * Catch end_turn_exception for networked clients.
20081027 00:35:24-!- shikadibot [n=ai@van-gessel.demon.nl] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20081027 00:35:43<       AI0867> shikadibot: log head
20081027 00:35:45<   shikadibot> Revision 30391 (ai0867 2008-10-26 23:30:55 +0000 (Sun, 26 Oct 2008)):
20081027 00:35:45<   shikadibot> * Catch end_turn_exception for networked clients.
20081027 00:35:45<   shikadibot> Web interface URL: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth?view=rev&rev=30391
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20081027 02:40:01<      Sapient> hello [Relic]
20081027 02:41:12<      Sapient> Jack Bauer is the new Rambo
20081027 02:42:13<           PK> Hey Sapient
20081027 02:42:14<           PK> you busy?
20081027 02:42:20<      Sapient> hi PK
20081027 02:42:27<      Sapient> not busy
20081027 02:43:46<           PK> could you check over that code I showed you yesterday?
20081027 02:43:51<           PK> I'll send it again
20081027 02:44:01<           PK> #define PK_ABILITY_FURY
20081027 02:44:03<           PK> oh crap.
20081027 02:44:06<           PK> whoopse XD
20081027 02:44:35<           PK> http://rafb.net/p/eMTxu075.html
20081027 02:44:38<           PK> thur.
20081027 02:44:50<           PK> the unit gets the 2 moves, but not the extra attack.
20081027 02:45:39 * Sapient reading
20081027 02:46:13<      Sapient> ok, I never coded an ability that gives you back your attacks
20081027 02:46:18<           PK> hmm
20081027 02:46:25<           PK> I remember how I messed it up
20081027 02:46:26<      Sapient> I would check KenOh's ability era
20081027 02:46:29<           PK> it worked before
20081027 02:46:33<      Sapient> bloodlust
20081027 02:46:44<           PK> but then when I made "hit and run" I accidently saved over it and had to remake it
20081027 02:47:01<           PK> and the one that added "attacks" got deleted.
20081027 02:47:07<           PK> so I rewrote in as close as I could remember
20081027 02:47:09<           PK> and I think i failed.
20081027 02:48:13<      Sapient> http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/WML_Abilities#Bloodlust
20081027 02:48:45<      Sapient> the variable is "attacks_left"
20081027 02:48:59<      Sapient> not "attacks"
20081027 02:50:47<      Sapient> I suggest you save that wiki page as a bookmark ;)
20081027 02:51:39<           PK> thanks once again.
20081027 02:51:41<           PK> =D
20081027 02:51:51<           PK> that was one of the awesome abilities available right now >>
20081027 02:51:58<           PK> oh, btw.
20081027 02:52:08<           PK> do you know how to code a unit spawning ability? =D
20081027 02:52:14<           PK> for future reference.
20081027 02:52:23<      Sapient> [unit]
20081027 02:52:42<           PK> >> cause this one unit spawns a crappy level 0 in a random adjacent hex when struck by blade damage.
20081027 02:52:57<           PK> with hp= to damage taken
20081027 02:53:17<      Sapient> [event] name=attack_hits
20081027 02:53:21<           PK> ah.
20081027 02:53:23<           PK> okay
20081027 02:53:35<           PK> to go along with the same unit, is it possible to cause a swarm affecting damage
20081027 02:53:38<           PK> as in damage = hp
20081027 02:54:10<      Sapient> rephrase in English?
20081027 02:54:14<           PK> it does 10 damage and has 10 hp
20081027 02:54:24<           PK> if it takes damage, its damage decreases.
20081027 02:54:35<      Sapient> yes, it's called "swarm"
20081027 02:54:37<           PK> a swarm spinoff.
20081027 02:54:45<           PK> no, swarm affects strikes
20081027 02:54:51<           PK> and is I believe, hardcoded.
20081027 02:54:57<           PK> if I recall
20081027 02:55:36<      Sapient> you can do a weapon special that changes weapon damage based on self HP, also
20081027 02:55:50<      Sapient> [damage]
20081027 02:56:03<      Sapient> value={COUNT}
20081027 02:56:09<      Sapient> [filter_self]
20081027 02:56:16<      Sapient> hitpoints={COUNT}
20081027 02:57:08<      Sapient> {DAMAGE_NERF 1}
20081027 02:57:23<      Sapient> ... {DAMAGE_NERF 10}
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20081027 03:51:59<      Espreon> esr: You said you were going to update the cartography article in the wiki. If you are not going to do it anytime soon then maybe I should do it as I usually have nothing to do...
20081027 03:53:09<          esr> Go ahead.  You might want to try to incorporate the advice now in map-howto.txt
20081027 03:53:43<      Espreon> I will do it tomorrow since I still need to finish that infernal book report...
20081027 03:55:43<      Espreon> esr: I will keep the Photoshop-specific instructions along with adding the GIMP instructions... OK? In addition I think I should find a way to convert the GIMP brushes into Photoshop brushes... for those Photoshop lovers... but that is for another day...
20081027 03:56:01<          esr> OK.
20081027 03:56:18<      Espreon> esr: I can test the future Photoshop brushes as my school laptop has Photoshop.
20081027 03:56:37<      Espreon> Please note I use GIMP over Photoshop.
20081027 03:56:47<      Espreon> Because GIMP is über.
20081027 03:58:44<      Espreon> esr: Before I go back to my book report I need to know whether or not I should keep the swamp and label brushes they way they are.
20081027 04:00:01<      Espreon> esr: Also did setting the spacing to 50 with the tree brush do the trick?
20081027 04:00:59<          esr> I've been off at a friend's house (playing Spore) for the last few hours.  Haven't checked that out yet.
20081027 04:03:01<      Espreon> esr: And should I leave the label and swamp brushes or alone or should I convert them?
20081027 04:03:34<          esr> Leave them for the moment.  I need to study parametric brushes some more.
20081027 04:03:49<      Espreon> esr: I shall do that.
20081027 04:05:34<      Espreon> I see some people are bashing DiD...
20081027 04:06:33<      Sapient> you mean Malin Keshar? he must like it to choose that name
20081027 04:06:55<      Espreon> Yup.
20081027 04:07:09<      Sapient> tell him to improve the campaign and then submit a patch
20081027 04:07:20<      Sapient> if we like it, we'll apply the changes
20081027 04:07:26<      Espreon> DiD was my favorite campaign... then UtBS and IFtU came along...
20081027 04:07:33<      Espreon> I shall do that.
20081027 04:07:45<      Espreon> ... later... as I wanna finish my book report.
20081027 04:13:44<      Espreon> Sapient: Done.
20081027 04:13:51<      Sapient> thanks, Espreon
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20081027 04:14:24<      Espreon> Sapient: You are welcome...
20081027 04:14:41<      Espreon> Luckily I prevented myself from doing something potentially foolish.
20081027 04:14:55<      Sapient> one more thing
20081027 04:15:05<      Sapient> he should make sure he is working off the version in trunk
20081027 04:15:10<      Sapient> otherwise the patch won't apply
20081027 04:15:55<      Espreon> Sapient: Done.
20081027 04:16:00<      Sapient> thanks, Espreon
20081027 04:16:13<      Espreon> You are welcome.
20081027 04:17:19<      Espreon> *Espreon has a strong desire to learn Old English and Old Norse*
20081027 04:18:44<      Espreon> I hope Quietus finishes his projects soon so he can get to animating the Verlisshi...
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20081027 04:20:46<      Espreon> Sapient: Wouldn't that be great?
20081027 04:21:03<      Sapient> umm I guess
20081027 04:21:34<      Espreon> You will find out why fabi ampersand I want the Verlisshi animated... real soon...
20081027 04:21:51<      Espreon> *Espreon likes to spell out symbols instead of using them*
20081027 04:24:42<      Espreon> I could spoil it... but no...
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20081027 04:31:54<      Espreon> Aaah.... there is a lot of Wesnoth related stuff on my plate... but the biggest would be to create BfW Portable...
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20081027 04:32:10<      Espreon> *biggest item on my plate
20081027 04:32:14<      Sapient> it's been done
20081027 04:32:19<      Espreon> I know.
20081027 04:32:45<      Espreon> Technically BfW is already portable... but some people want it fully compliant with the PortableApps Platform...
20081027 04:32:57<      Espreon> Besides I am sure the PA.com community misses me dearly...
20081027 04:40:47<      Espreon> I cannot comprehend how someone cannot comprehend the marvelous _main.cfg...
20081027 04:42:25 * Sapient raises hand
20081027 04:43:36<      Sapient> I think the word "main" does not accurately describe its purpose
20081027 04:43:49<      Espreon> It seems simple enough to me...
20081027 04:43:50<      Sapient> Starting it with an underscore is silly
20081027 04:44:23<      Espreon> Aaah crap... I missed my favorite show...
20081027 04:44:37<      Espreon> Oh well...
20081027 04:57:18<      Espreon> Maybe I should use this time to compile a bunch of stuff on my other comp since I am watching TV...
20081027 04:58:42<      Sapient> cya later, have fun.
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20081027 09:05:21<      Espreon> esr: Here?
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20081027 11:56:00<  loonycyborg> esr: "Deprecated WML found: Trying to recruit a: mixed fighter but no unit of that type (usage=) is available. Check the recruit and [ai] recruitment_pattern keys for team 'Tan-Morgh' against the usage key of the units in question! Removing invalid recruitment_pattern entry and continuing..."
20081027 11:56:29<  loonycyborg> In THoT "The Siege of Kal Kartha"
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20081027 12:24:11<      Sapient> yo zookeeper
20081027 12:24:33<     Pandepic> hello Sapient
20081027 12:24:42<      Sapient> hey there Pandepic
20081027 12:24:52<     Pandepic> how are you?
20081027 12:25:14<      Sapient> can't complain I guess
20081027 12:25:19<     Pandepic> that's good
20081027 12:25:25<      Sapient> do I know you from the forums?
20081027 12:25:28<     Pandepic> no, I'm new
20081027 12:25:41<     Pandepic> I'm thinking of helping out with the wesnoth widget system
20081027 12:25:53<      Sapient> great
20081027 12:25:57<    zookeeper> yo
20081027 12:26:28<     Pandepic> are there any higher priority areas of the widget system that I should look at first? like anything needing to be cleaned up or fixed
20081027 12:26:44<      Sapient> it's under a heavy revision already
20081027 12:26:48<     Pandepic> ah ok
20081027 12:26:59<      Sapient> Mordante a.k.a. SkeletonCrew is heading up the effort
20081027 12:27:16<      Sapient> he is on vacation for about 6 more days I think
20081027 12:27:25<     Pandepic> ok
20081027 12:27:33<     Pandepic> I'll send him a forum message and offer whatever help he needs
20081027 12:27:43<      Sapient> sounds like a plan
20081027 12:27:51<     Pandepic> which name does he go by on the forums?
20081027 12:27:57<      Sapient> the new gui system is under src/gui
20081027 12:28:09<      Sapient> on the forums it is SkeletonCrew
20081027 12:28:13<     Pandepic> ok, thanks
20081027 12:28:24<     Pandepic> I'll have a look at it later tonight
20081027 12:29:54<     Pandepic> I was attracted to wesnoth by the use of SDL
20081027 12:30:32<      Sapient> well it does help with portability
20081027 12:30:41<     Pandepic> yeah, I'm a big fan of it
20081027 12:30:57<     Pandepic> I've been working on a sprite-based MMO engine using SDL
20081027 12:31:27<     Pandepic> it's really fun to work with
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20081027 15:13:57<     Pandepic> hi
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20081027 15:57:52<    Patterner> I upgraded to boost 1.36 and now scons fails... "Checking for Boost regex library... no"  everything before is "yes"
20081027 15:59:02<    Patterner> (r30391 if that matters...)
20081027 15:59:53<  loonycyborg> What's in build/config.log?
20081027 16:01:16<  loonycyborg> It works for me with 1.36
20081027 16:01:50<    Patterner> oops. I'm used to config.log in the current directory...
20081027 16:02:04<    Patterner> "/usr/lib/libboost_regex-mt.so: undefined reference to `icu_4_0::Locale::Locale()'"
20081027 16:02:15<    Patterner> probably a missing "-licu"..?
20081027 16:03:04<  loonycyborg> You compiled boost with icu support?
20081027 16:03:51<    Patterner> apparently...
20081027 16:13:16<  loonycyborg> Weird. Works for me even if I compile boost with icu support.
20081027 16:19:12<  loonycyborg> Patterner: Perhaps you don't have icu installed or didn't do ldconfig?
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20081027 16:26:21<    Patterner> I doubt boost would have compiled without those files... But ICU is installed and ldconfig was done.
20081027 16:27:15<    Patterner> although I'm not sure why it's "icu_4_0" when the installed version is 3.8.1-r1...
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20081027 16:28:44<  loonycyborg> Which distro you're currently using?
20081027 16:29:17<    Patterner> gentoo
20081027 16:29:32<    Patterner> (~amd64 a.k.a. bleeding edge)
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20081027 16:29:40<  loonycyborg> So do I but it links successfully.
20081027 16:30:22<  loonycyborg> Though I compile boost 1.36 myself, not using an ebuild.
20081027 16:30:34<    Patterner> I used the ebuild from bugs.gentoo.org
20081027 16:30:46<    Patterner> well, the unpacked overlay.tar.bz2
20081027 16:32:17<    Patterner> "ldd libboost_regex-mt.so: libicudata.so.38 => /usr/lib/libicudata.so.38 & libicui18n.so.38 => /usr/lib/libicui18n.so.38"
20081027 16:32:42<    Patterner> and "libicuuc.so.38 => /usr/lib/libicuuc.so.38"
20081027 16:32:58<    Patterner> loonycyborg: what icu libs does your libboost_regex use?
20081027 16:33:35<  loonycyborg> http://rafb.net/p/leg6z090.html
20081027 16:34:45<  loonycyborg> I get this when I run ldd /usr/local/lib/libboost_regex-gcc41-mt-1_36.so
20081027 16:42:08<  loonycyborg> Patterner: Was boost compiled with icu support before you upgraded?
20081027 16:50:13<    Patterner> I cannot prove it, but I'm sure it was.
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20081027 16:52:06<  loonycyborg> If you have icu USE-flag enabled and don't remember enabling specially for boost 1.36, then it was.
20081027 16:52:36<  loonycyborg> Unless that ebuild ignores this USE-flag..
20081027 16:52:59<    Patterner> 1.35 was the previous
20081027 16:53:48<    Patterner> 1.35.0-r2 uses icu
20081027 16:53:53<  loonycyborg> Yep. I have boost 1.35 installed through ebuild currently.
20081027 16:54:28<  loonycyborg> And icu USE-flag is enabled. And it works with wesnoth too.
20081027 17:02:36<    Patterner> I think the ebuild is br0ken.
20081027 17:03:02<    Patterner> compiling without "icu" now.
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20081027 18:15:35<    Patterner> Now I can compile wesnoth.
20081027 18:15:45<  loonycyborg> Patterner: Great.
20081027 18:16:17<    Patterner> Unless you need icu...
20081027 18:19:42<  loonycyborg> Since I enabled icu USE-flag just for sheer fun of it, I'm curious for what purposes one needs icu support in boost regex..
20081027 18:22:16<  loonycyborg> In particular how does it affect wesnoth?
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20081027 18:35:01 * loonycyborg does some research
20081027 18:35:18<  loonycyborg> icu support won't matter for wesnoth unless it uses boost::u32regex
20081027 18:36:37<    Patterner> Need in general, not just wesnoth
20081027 18:37:12<    Patterner> ldd wesnoth|wc -l => 69 # that's a lot of libs...
20081027 18:37:35<    zookeeper> lolz. http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=317261#p317261
20081027 18:37:52<    zookeeper> delete the post + warning?
20081027 18:37:58<    zookeeper> or something else
20081027 18:38:23<    zookeeper> ah well, http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=22696 i guess we'll just ban him
20081027 18:38:26<    zookeeper> Ivanovic?
20081027 18:38:40<    zookeeper> right, i guess he was away.
20081027 18:40:24<         Sirp> zookeeper: Ivanovic would still be on his way back from the US
20081027 18:41:01<    zookeeper> well, someone could ban that guy anyway :)
20081027 18:41:26<    zookeeper> (or try talking some sense into him if you'd prefer, i don't want to)
20081027 18:41:59<         Sirp> what caused him to post that? Didn't he post several reasonable sounding requests for WML help?
20081027 18:42:09<       CIA-41> esr * r30392 /trunk/data/ (6 files in 5 dirs): 
20081027 18:42:09<       CIA-41> Fix bug #12511 (NEWBIE difficulty level in NR is displayed incorrectly in load
20081027 18:42:09<       CIA-41> dialog).
20081027 18:42:09<       CIA-41> At some point, someone working on the C++ code introduced an effective
20081027 18:42:09<       CIA-41> requirement that difficulty levels be in a set enumerated in english.cfg.
20081027 18:42:10<       CIA-41> The NR WML didn't track this change.
20081027 18:42:14<       CIA-41> Also, I'm deleting the now-unused NR music directory.
20081027 18:43:00 * Patterner is not authorised :(
20081027 18:43:49<    zookeeper> Sirp, checked that first url i gave?
20081027 18:49:09<    zookeeper> anyways, i'm afk, so i'll leave dealing with that to someone else.
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20081027 18:51:50<     kalenzzz> esr, DM is now scenario complete(just commited). You can take a look. Look especially at ESR_NOTES in the scenarios and separate file
20081027 18:52:01<          esr> Will do.
20081027 18:52:52<     kalenzzz> ok,  note that it is not tested gamewise, could be broken. I halt work on DM for now to concentrate on LoW
20081027 18:53:26<         Sirp> zookeeper: ahh I didn't see that.
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20081027 18:57:27<         Sirp> zookeeper: okay I banned him
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20081027 19:11:48<     stikonas> esr: Are you sure that the bug #12511 is fixed? Still doesn't correctly work for me.
20081027 19:13:05<          esr> stikonas: I tested it.  Are you sure your data tree is up to date?
20081027 19:13:15-!- kthakore [n=kthakore@99.255.245.40] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20081027 19:13:49<       CIA-41> esr * r30393 /trunk/src/ai.cpp: Make an error message slightly more useful.
20081027 19:14:51<     stikonas> esr: it should be, I have removed install tree and mane clean reinstall. Maybe I should try do delete cache files.
20081027 19:15:05<          esr> loonycyborg: Please svn up, reproduce that recruitment error message, and paste it here.  I've enhanced the C++ to show the difficulty level, which will pin down the error.
20081027 19:15:14<          esr> stikonas: Yes, try that.
20081027 19:19:39<     stikonas> esr: it works now, thanks.
20081027 19:22:54<     stikonas> esr: this is probably another bug, but green leader moves somehow strangely in that scenario. It seems that he teleports to village. And when he returns to keep, he disappears for a second.
20081027 19:23:29<     stikonas> esr: should I report this to b.w.o or it is expected behavior.
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20081027 19:25:35<          esr> stikonas: I think this is a special case of a more general bug that was discussed here yesterday.
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20081027 19:38:10<  loonycyborg> esr: Deprecated WML found: At difficulty level NORMAL, trying to recruit a: mixed fighter but no unit of that type (usage=) is available. Check the recruit and [ai] recruitment_pattern keys for team 'Tan-Morgh' against the usage key of theunits in question! Removing invalid  recruitment_pattern entry and continuing...
20081027 19:38:38<          esr> loonycyborg: OK, I'll fix.
20081027 19:38:42<          esr> Thanks.
20081027 19:38:57<  loonycyborg> np
20081027 19:42:42<       CIA-41> esr * r30394 /trunk/data/campaigns/The_Hammer_of_Thursagan/scenarios/10_The_Siege_of_Kal_Kartha.cfg: Suppress a "Deprecated WML" message.
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20081027 20:35:13<       AI0867> zookeeper: question about [male]/[female] and [variation]
20081027 20:35:43<       AI0867> can [female] contain a [variation] or a [variation] contain [female]?
20081027 20:36:06<       AI0867> and can ['gender'] contain more gender tags, and variations more variation tags?
20081027 20:40:24<    zookeeper> uh, i'm not sure.
20081027 20:40:58<    zookeeper> you'd have to test that, i wouldn't really bet on either possibility
20081027 20:44:38-!- Jetrel|w [n=Jetrel|w@mail.marathonmultimedia.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20081027 20:45:35<     Jetrel|w> zookeeper: boucman:  just wanted to give a shout out to both of you for timely help.  Thanks.
20081027 20:45:44<      boucman> both ?
20081027 20:45:53<     Jetrel|w> yeah. :)
20081027 20:46:00<      boucman> the one about submerge, yes, but what is the other one ?
20081027 20:46:24<     Jetrel|w> 2 people, one problem.
20081027 20:46:45<     Jetrel|w> both people. :)
20081027 20:47:01<      boucman> :)
20081027 20:47:18<      boucman> well, I'm always glad when my engine is helpfull
20081027 20:47:20<     Jetrel|w> as it is, I'm probably going to, as you suggested, put the attack on a differen [frame], and see how that works.
20081027 20:47:45<      boucman> that's probably the most "tweakable" way of doing it
20081027 20:51:53<    zookeeper> (well, not [frame], but [slash_frame] or whatever...just making sure)
20081027 20:53:53<     Jetrel|w> Yeah.
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20081027 21:19:23<          esr> zookeeper: Delfador's Memoirs is coming together nicely.  I've just been over to look at it and do a prose-polishing pass.
20081027 21:20:22<          esr> It needs playtesting and two bits of art, but having it together for 1.6 now looks likely to me.
20081027 21:21:24<    zookeeper> right
20081027 21:25:02<    zookeeper> esr, why does it have a heckload of duplicated portrait images?
20081027 21:26:01<    zookeeper> in images/ and images/portraits/. and the latter contains all sorts of duplicates of mainline images.
20081027 21:26:15<          esr> Dunno.  Haven't looked.  Are these duplicates of things also in mainline?  If so, it's possible they hadn't been mainlined when santi and tapik checked last.
20081027 21:27:05<    zookeeper> i can't figure out any sane reason for some duplicates of kitty's mage portraits to be there.
20081027 21:27:49<          esr> Easily fixed.
20081027 21:31:22-!- me [n=me@athedsl-4512227.home.otenet.gr] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20081027 21:31:29-!- me is now known as kalenz
20081027 21:33:01<          esr> kalenz: I've just read your notes and done a prose-polishing pass on DM.  Looks promising.  I consolidated all the to-do issues in the TODO file.
20081027 21:34:01<     Jetrel|w> zookeeper: yeah, that's nutty to have those duplicates.
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20081027 21:35:04<    zookeeper> someone probably put them there because kitty's portraits would have taken a couple of days to get committed. yays for sanity.
20081027 21:35:45<    zookeeper> (yet it would have been fine if they would have actually gotten removed when they should have)
20081027 21:37:10<       kalenz> I agree. The point was to finish with story issues 
20081027 21:52:18<       kalenz> Is there an issue with replays not working in trunk?
20081027 21:55:18<         Sirp> hmm the add-on server seems to be down.
20081027 21:55:23<         Sirp> anyone know anything about that?
20081027 21:57:43<     stikonas> kalenz: is Legend of Wesmere texdomain ready for translation?
20081027 22:00:49-!- maxy [n=maxy@80-219-1-12.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit []
20081027 22:02:29<    zookeeper> esr, lol, that eye-opening ascii animation is still quite a winner.
20081027 22:03:36<    zookeeper> methor has no portrait when he speaks in the end of the first scenario, and delfador doesn't either. all the great mages have the same one (they could be one great mage, one silver mage, one MoL, or something like that for variety instead).
20081027 22:03:57<       kalenz> Stikonas: Yes, textwise we expect no more changes.  Gamewise, I just had an orcish leader teleport to my keep...
20081027 22:04:32<    zookeeper> ...not that methor has a portrait in the second scenario either.
20081027 22:04:49<     stikonas> kalenz: I will update wiki textdomain page
20081027 22:05:14<       kalenz> Right. I have not touched(much) the existing DM scenaria
20081027 22:05:25<       kalenz> Stikonas: thanx
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20081027 22:16:46<    zookeeper> esr, i can't say it's very interesting to have several scenarios of fighting against orcs with a couple of loyalist units. that's what 50% of campaigns consist of after all (substitute loyalists with elves when necessary)
20081027 22:18:18<    zookeeper> besides, leollyn is hostile -.-
20081027 22:19:04<    zookeeper> lionel has no portrait, garard has no portrait...
20081027 22:19:19<    zookeeper> what _isn't_ broken in this campaign?
20081027 22:22:30<    zookeeper> ur-thorodor's portrait path is typoed
20081027 22:24:28<    zookeeper> as is the land of the dead ToD image's path
20081027 22:27:03<    zookeeper> well, i guess it isn't that useful for me to list all that stuff here
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20081027 22:28:13<          esr> zookeeper: No, wmllint will catch a lot of it.  Your criticism is better directed at the higher-level stuff.
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20081027 22:29:29<    zookeeper> ok, good. i kinda assumed you had run all your tools on it already though.
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20081027 22:30:43<    zookeeper> ok, here's one: the "terror over southern pass" map is hideous :p
20081027 22:31:34<    zookeeper> ...and after that an unknown scenario error
20081027 22:31:47<    zookeeper> i'll call it a day ;)
20081027 22:31:48-!- zookeeper [n=l@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe11fa00-51.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit []
20081027 22:34:19<     Jetrel|w> I'll toss it out there to both esr and zookeeper (whom I'm aware is out) that it would be an interesting twist to allow for much more common use of 'evil dwarves' in wesnoth.
20081027 22:35:05<          esr> Jetrel|w: I'd be OK with the Masked Dwarf units being used in other campaigns.
20081027 22:35:25<     Jetrel|w> Namely, if dwarves had a tendency to make colonies inside major human urban centers, providing a number of things which humans don't do well at (like all the stuff that happens underground.
20081027 22:37:17<     Jetrel|w> Basically, it'd be a strong play towards the "greedy dwarf" archetype; such as seen with Mim and Thorin.
20081027 22:37:30<          esr> Right.
20081027 22:38:18<     Jetrel|w> So, the idea would be that some dwarves are in the queen's employ in HttT; they might not be keen on fighting other dwarves, perhaps, but they'd happily be paid to take on ostensibly criminal (rebel) humans.
20081027 22:40:00<          esr> Yes, evil dwarves would add something to the game milieu.  Note, however, a distinction: a "greedy" dwarf may not be evil in the terms Dwarven culture defines that, but a masked dwarf always is.  So you could have both masked and unmasked dwarves fighting for Asheviere and they wouldn't like each other much.  
20081027 22:40:16<     Jetrel|w> ^ interesting.
20081027 22:40:52<     Jetrel|w> Whole reason I'm saying this is because of the issue zookeeper talked about - the tendency not to want to make the "good races" ever evil, meaning that we constantly get "team A" versus "team B"
20081027 22:40:59<          esr> Have you played THoT, or been around anytime that I explained the nasked-dwarf thing?
20081027 22:41:07<     Jetrel|w> Yeah, I was.
20081027 22:41:34<     Jetrel|w> I forget what their motivation was - they were undead, and they claimed the power of the hammer to ...
20081027 22:41:49<     Jetrel|w> (and the masks were to cover-up their being undead)
20081027 22:42:26<     Jetrel|w> All in all, it was a cool idea.
20081027 22:43:15<          esr> No, it's more than that.
20081027 22:43:56<     Jetrel|w> Also, something about concealing their willingness to be open and truthful, I think was part of it.
20081027 22:44:06<     Jetrel|w> To look each other in the eyes.
20081027 22:44:12<          esr> *Karrag* masked because he was undead.  The other Dwarves weren't undead.   What they were was the dwarven equivalent of criminal psychopaths. 
20081027 22:44:39<          esr> Right, you've got it.  A dwarf puts his name and gis face behind his deeds.
20081027 22:44:40-!- SapientAFK [n=sapien-x@c-71-59-35-203.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20081027 22:45:05<     Jetrel|w> Like how an assassin would veil his face, or how the aiel in TWoT would veil their faces in battle.
20081027 22:45:16<          esr> To refuse to do so is automatically corrupt.  Disguise is an obscene concept.
20081027 22:45:19<     Jetrel|w> There for additional motivations beyond that, but..
20081027 22:45:48<     Jetrel|w> ^( my statement regarding assassins, I meant)
20081027 22:45:49<   SapientAFK> aiel yeah
20081027 22:45:55 * Jetrel|w busy for ~10min
20081027 22:45:55-!- SapientAFK is now known as Sapient
20081027 22:46:29<      Sapient> I live the new naga designs btw
20081027 22:46:45<          esr> So the *really* evil dwarves -- the ones other dwarves think are beyond tyhe pale -- will be the masked ones.
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20081027 23:02:10 * Jetrel|w is busy for another chunk of time. :/
20081027 23:03:06-!- [Relic] [n=[Relic]@76.229.220.201] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20081027 23:04:12<      Sapient> yo [Relic]
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20081027 23:27:46<       AI0867> esr: the LoW track is a bit bugged
20081027 23:28:09<       AI0867> two of the dots from "elvish treasury" are a part of the "saurian treasury" journey
20081027 23:28:19<      Sapient> yo AI
20081027 23:28:23<       AI0867> hey
20081027 23:28:32<       AI0867> I reverted consider attack
20081027 23:28:33<      Sapient> AI0867: sorry about the consider reversion
20081027 23:28:37<          esr> AI0867: Can you fix it, or do I need to?
20081027 23:28:40<      Sapient> but it was a necessary loss
20081027 23:29:02<       AI0867> I'm not sure how to edit specific journeys in trackplacer
20081027 23:29:09<      Sapient> AI0867: if you're feeling ambitious, check out the coder's corner counter-proposal
20081027 23:29:29<       AI0867> maybe at the end of the week
20081027 23:29:39<       AI0867> I have an exam in nine and a half hours
20081027 23:29:44<       AI0867> and another one friday
20081027 23:29:50<      Sapient> ouch, good luck
20081027 23:30:11<          esr> AI0867: Try to figure it out.  If you can't tell me so I can improve either the tool or the documentation for it.
20081027 23:30:19<       AI0867> don't have the time, sorry
20081027 23:30:30<       AI0867> maybe this weekend
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20081027 23:30:40<          esr> OK.
20081027 23:31:23<      Sapient> esr: did you break the AI? ^_^;
20081027 23:31:36<          esr> Sapient: Huh?
20081027 23:31:39<      Sapient> it's reeeal buggy in trunk
20081027 23:32:20<      Sapient> on saturday I fixed a bug where it was moving to coordinates in the multiple thousands
20081027 23:33:06<      Sapient> if you play many scenarios, the AI will recruit once, then never move until a unit comes in range
20081027 23:33:15<      Sapient> much like the idle AI
20081027 23:33:20<      Sapient> err... guardian ai
20081027 23:33:31<          esr> Sapient: I reverted suokko's changes, then tried to re-apply rgem cleanly as about a dozen small diffs.
20081027 23:33:49<      Sapient> I think tried is the key word there
20081027 23:34:47<          esr> I've been yelling for help from someone who actually understands the AI.  I guess you're it.
20081027 23:34:58<      Sapient> I'm the closest thing for now
20081027 23:35:06<      Sapient> until Sirp gets his laptop
20081027 23:35:21<      Sapient> just please tread lightly on the AI code
20081027 23:35:38<      Sapient> it's like the positronic brain in "I Robot"
20081027 23:36:23<      Sapient> we should screen commits to the AI very carefully
20081027 23:36:35<          esr> Agreed.
20081027 23:37:08<      Sapient> and I propose a moratorium on reverts
20081027 23:37:25<      Sapient> a more surgical analysis is required now
20081027 23:37:40<      Sapient> it could take a while
20081027 23:37:47<          esr> I've been reying to undo the damage suokko left behind, not making changes on my own hook.
20081027 23:38:46<      Sapient> probably, all commits to the AI should be peer reviewed
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20081027 23:39:57<      Sapient> someone who understands what it is doing should give a thumbs up, otherwise explanation is in order
20081027 23:40:35<          esr> Look at commits 30311 to 30334.  That was my attempt to restore suokko's non-broken stuff.
20081027 23:40:58 * Sapient checks
20081027 23:41:11<      Sapient> oh dang, that's a lot
20081027 23:41:29<      Sapient> I am on my way to get some zzz's for now but I will read it
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20081027 23:42:17<          esr> Sapient: You're looking at the results of about a 14-hour continuous hacking run ;-)
20081027 23:44:07<      Sapient> I think Sirp will probably be moaning a lot more than me when he gets back into it ;)
20081027 23:44:23<      Sapient> but I will make whatever small fixes I feel confident about
20081027 23:44:56<      Sapient> possibly just adding debug scaffolding
20081027 23:45:07<      Sapient> cya later, have fun.
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20081027 23:53:07<     Jetrel|w> esr: so yeah, before work interrupted, I was saying how it would be nice to figure out legitimate (non-grossly-contrived) ways to allow a bunch of the more 'cuddly/friendly' factions that always tend to get portrayed as good-guys, as bad guys.
20081027 23:54:07<          esr> Jetrel|w: Well, we've got bad-guy elves in SoF.  That's a start.  And I wrote some good-guy orcs and bad-guy dwarves into THoT.
20081027 23:54:12<     Jetrel|w> Because zookeeper is right in saying that there aren't enough campaigns that focus on protagonists other than humans, elves, and dwarves, typically fighting undead, drakes, and saurians.
20081027 23:54:40<     Jetrel|w> esr: I'm curious what the motive of the elves in SoF was - I haven't played it.
20081027 23:54:44<          esr> You know I'm storyboarding a saurian-centered campaign?
20081027 23:55:47<     Jetrel|w> No, I wasn't aware.  I should try and get some of neo's alternate saurians into mainline.
20081027 23:55:54<          esr> Originally it was just a dissident elf faction that loathed dwarves.  Now that LoW is mainline I've tied them to Landarr, the elf-lord who gets corrupted by the potion of Crelanu.
20081027 23:56:02<     Jetrel|w> (mainline 'stock units')
20081027 23:56:28<          esr> Good idea, it would boost tactical variety.
20081027 23:56:58<     Jetrel|w> One thing I disliked is in two-brothers, where there is an enemy faction of elves that basically has no real reason to be fighting you.
20081027 23:57:12<          esr> I've got some concepts and a partial storyline for a saurian-centered campaign called "The Night March".
20081027 23:57:43<     Jetrel|w> There's a one-or-two line 'justification' about how the undead are going to make them immortal, but it's retarded any way a person slices it.
20081027 23:58:04<          esr> Actually they have a reason -- their leader has been corrupted by a lich.  It's easy to miss that, though.
20081027 23:58:33-!- Elvish_Pillager [n=eli@71-10-234-12.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20081027 23:58:34<     Jetrel|w> esr: yeah... but it's still a cheap justification.
20081027 23:58:52<          esr> I suppose I could give that a little juice.
20081027 23:59:31<     Jetrel|w> One interesting thing might be to have the elves having been tricked into fighting you.
20081027 23:59:45<          esr> Possible.
--- Log closed Di Okt 28 00:00:31 2008