--- Log opened Di Okt 28 00:00:31 2008
--- Day changed Di Okt 28 2008
20081028 00:00:31<     Jetrel|w> I don't know; it's kind of a fine line to be treading.  We want to have them as enemies, but we don't want to have random, barely-justified insertion of them into areas just to flavor things up.
20081028 00:00:52<       Rrenys> you can have more campaigns were the protagonists are evil.
20081028 00:01:01<       Rrenys> where*
20081028 00:01:04<     Jetrel|w> Anyways, though
20081028 00:01:36<     Jetrel|w> esr: probably one of the biggest things I'd want to bounce off of you is a question of what we should do with two chameleon-looking saurians that neorice had made, because I'd like to work on those, first.
20081028 00:01:47<     Jetrel|w> (link to images in a sec)
20081028 00:01:54<     Jetrel|w> Namely, names, and abilities.
20081028 00:02:12<          esr> Ah.
20081028 00:03:37<     Jetrel|w> Abilities is probably the first one; and it's probably an easy case of them having ready access to an invisibility ability.
20081028 00:03:58<     Jetrel|w> But it's a question of which one we want to give.
20081028 00:04:11<     Jetrel|w> Or if we even want to make a new one altogether.
20081028 00:05:47<          esr> You have my attention.
20081028 00:07:14<     Jetrel|w> Well, one possibility is a "constant invisibility" - we've never given something that strong.
20081028 00:07:32<     Jetrel|w> (all invisibility is assumed to be cancelled when you're right next to a unit).
20081028 00:08:17<     Jetrel|w> Alternatively, we could give them a time-of-day ability, and the obvious one would be nightstalk.
20081028 00:08:53<     Jetrel|w> Alternatively, we could do a terrain-based ability; ambush.  Possibly swamp, or swamp and forest..
20081028 00:09:28<     Jetrel|w> Further alternately, we could come up with a new ability, like "invisible unless you're within 3 hexes of it".
20081028 00:09:38<     Jetrel|w> Or maybe 2 hexes.
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20081028 00:10:52<     Jetrel|w> Possibly, another thing we could do is invisibilty of some kind plus skirmishing.
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20081028 00:14:35<     Jetrel|w> esr: it's the two images in the lower-left of this that I'm talking about:  http://exong.net/wesnoth-attach/files/revamp_saurians_127.png
20081028 00:15:06<          esr> Looking...
20081028 00:15:58<     Jetrel|w> esr: so anyways, the decision on this isn't pressing by any means, but if you're making a saurian campaign, it'd be a good excuse for me to get those two animated and into mainline.
20081028 00:16:36<          esr> Jetrel|w: Thinking...
20081028 00:17:02<     Jetrel|w> The other thing I wanted to explore was saurians that ride these:  http://exong.net/wesnoth-attach/files/de_rider_544.png
20081028 00:17:32<     Jetrel|w> (by which I mean, "ride the lizards as mounts", not the elves.) :O
20081028 00:17:51<          esr> Oh, I *like* the riders.  Lets by all means give'em lizard cavalry.
20081028 00:18:23 * esr thinks of Jack Vance's The Dragon Masters
20081028 00:19:11<     Jetrel|w> Cool - I was worried that one wouldn't be welcome, so..  :)
20081028 00:19:53<          esr> As for the foot figures...new unit line, Saurian Skulker / Saurian Lurker / Saurian Ambusher.  Skirmish plus invisibility indeed.  Have 'em work like Elvish Rangers in swamps.
20081028 00:21:41<          esr> I'll write the WML if you like.
20081028 00:22:35<     Jetrel|w> Nah, I can write WML no problem.  Descriptions, OtOh, would be nice to have you write.
20081028 00:22:51<          esr> The foot line would fit some ideas I'm developing about Saurian culture.  Yeah, I can do descriptions.
20081028 00:23:40<     Jetrel|w> Er, the name ambusher is already taken by another saurian.
20081028 00:24:16<          esr> So I'm imagining Saurians as sort of the polar opposite of my fair-witness Dwarves -- a culture in which disguise, trickery, and (successful) deception are all highly valued.  
20081028 00:24:36<          esr> Oh well, I'll come up with someting.
20081028 00:24:39<     Jetrel|w> Ah, nice - I was just going to ask.
20081028 00:25:12<     Jetrel|w> Yeah, my own feelings on them are fairly vague, although I do want to have a tinge of lovecraftian horror in there; like his "deep ones"
20081028 00:25:13<          esr> Imagine a sort of crross between Sicilians and Aeabs, on steroids.
20081028 00:25:22<     Jetrel|w> c.f. "A shadow over innsmouth"
20081028 00:25:30<          esr> s/Aeabs/Arabs/
20081028 00:25:36<     Jetrel|w> Also, "the doom that came to sarnath"
20081028 00:25:46<          esr> Right, I know the mythos.
20081028 00:26:23<          esr> OK, here's how we do that.  By having Saurians occasionally refer to "the Deep Gods".  
20081028 00:26:42<     Jetrel|w> I don't want to ape the mythos, outside of making them very emotionally/societally "alien" to humans.  But yes, deep gods is nice. :)
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20081028 00:27:32<          esr> Even the Saurians are a bit afraid of the Deep gods, but they think that's only proper -- wgat good is a god that doesn't inspire fear?
20081028 00:28:32<     Jetrel|w> esr: you mean we can't have Puffus, the greco-roman god of marshmallows?
20081028 00:28:46 * esr snorts
20081028 00:28:53<     Jetrel|w> I was wondering why he didn't make it into the pantheon.
20081028 00:28:54<          esr> Eris will get you for that.
20081028 00:29:12<     Jetrel|w> Maybe the other gods found him too ... delicious.
20081028 00:29:32 * esr meditates on the Original Snub.
20081028 00:34:55<     Jetrel|w> Anyways, I'd better head home.  I'll try and poke at those saurians within the coming week or so.
20081028 00:35:12<     Jetrel|w> Also, I need to finish brightening up that button graphic we'd talked about.
20081028 00:35:30<          esr> Have fun.
20081028 00:35:34<     Jetrel|w> That's a loose end to tie up, and I think I'll do that tonight.
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20081028 02:30:44<       CIA-41> esr * r30395 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/ (4 files in 2 dirs): Move some macros that were in a separtate file for no obvious reason.
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20081028 05:01:35<          esr> Ivanovic: Are you actually there?
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20081028 05:03:41<       Jetrel> esr: will have an updated version of that button for you in just a sec.
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20081028 05:14:28<       Jetrel> New:  http://www.allacrost.org/staff/user/jetryl/Wesnoth/button-mockup.png
20081028 05:15:05<       Jetrel> esr: so, there's a new version.  IMO, this is probably ready to be used; if so, I'll commit the graphic for it and a "pressed" state.
20081028 05:15:29 * Jetrel -> afk momentarily
20081028 05:15:36<          esr> Looking at your URL now...
20081028 05:16:27<          esr> It's a good start.
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20081028 05:28:56<       Jetrel> I don't know of any immediate way to improve it.
20081028 05:29:35<       Jetrel> So if you think there's more to be done, suggest away, but otherwise we should probably go ahead and commit it.
20081028 05:30:20<          esr> I still think we may want to lighten the corol on the button face, to, like, something other than black.  But the important thing is to get the code in place to support the button type; we can tweak the skin later.
20081028 05:30:30<          esr> s/corol/color/
20081028 05:30:45<          esr> So yeah, I encourage committing that.
20081028 05:30:59<       Jetrel> esr: I did considerably brighten the color, actually.  Lemme upload a comparison to the regular button color.
20081028 05:33:39<       Jetrel> actually, what the heck, here's another 10-15%, but any higher starts hurting the legibility of the text.
20081028 05:34:41<       Jetrel> http://www.allacrost.org/staff/user/jetryl/Wesnoth/button-mockup2.png
20081028 05:35:43<       Jetrel> I'm gonna try pushing it up even more..
20081028 05:38:46<       Jetrel> http://www.allacrost.org/staff/user/jetryl/Wesnoth/button-mockup3.png
20081028 05:38:53<       Jetrel> I just hope that's not too much.
20081028 05:40:36<       Jetrel> esr: how does the color look now?
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20081028 06:00:53<          esr> That is a noticeable difference.  It looks good.
20081028 06:01:40<       Jetrel> esr: okay, I guess I'll make the two other 'states' for the button, and commit away, just so this can get done.
20081028 06:01:52<       Jetrel> Thanks, btw.
20081028 06:01:54<          esr> Jetrel: OK.
20081028 06:03:25<          esr> Meanwhile, I spend most of the evening polishing Delfador's Memoirs.  It's storyline-complete and passes all my sanity checks now.  Still needs some art, though, which is why I mention it.  Has Kitty recovered from her burnout yet?
20081028 06:04:54<       Jetrel> No, she hasn't - she sent a message to that effect to Dave, when dave paged both myself and her wondering about the possibility of a T-Shirt design.
20081028 06:05:29<          esr> Alas.  So who's doing portraits these days?
20081028 06:07:08<       Jetrel> Uh.  (/me looks around awkwardly, hears crickets.)
20081028 06:07:30<       Jetrel> Two candidates are thespaceinvader, and girgistan, working as a team.
20081028 06:08:16<       Jetrel> girgistan comes up with cool designs, and thespaceinvader is decent at coloring them (which is good, because girgistan is bad at coloring).
20081028 06:11:27-!- [Relic] [n=[Relic]@76.229.220.201] has quit ["Leaving"]
20081028 06:22:04<          esr> Jetrel: I'll ask thespaceinvader, we have a history of working together pretty well.
20081028 06:23:12<          esr> Jetrel: You might also be interested to know that I've ventured into cartography lately: see http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/wesnoth/trunk/data/campaigns/Son_Of_The_Black_Eye/images/farnorth.png
20081028 06:24:07<          esr> It ain't up to Kestenvarn's standards, but it sucks a lot less than the old sepia-toned map.  I'm trying to learn how to better, and to document what I learn as I go.
20081028 06:25:38<          esr> s/to better/to do better/
20081028 06:26:17<       Jetrel> First lesson would be to use anti-aliased lines on all those borders.
20081028 06:26:59<       Jetrel> Also ... I do believe kestenvarn had a map-making tutorial up, somewhere - have you seen that?
20081028 06:28:44<          esr> Yes.  I got some useful ideas from it, but most of the techniques were photoshop-centric.  I had to reinvent equivalents using the GIMP.
20081028 06:29:07<       Jetrel> Anti-aliasing on the borders, for example, between the sea and the land, is a major element that makes things look much better.  In those cases, the raw edges really break the immersion of it being actually painted on canvas/vellum
20081028 06:29:23<          esr> hen yiyu say anti-aliased lines, what do you mean, exactly.   used a brush rather than a pencil.
20081028 06:29:32<       Jetrel> Hm..
20081028 06:29:38<          esr> s/hen yiyu/when you/
20081028 06:29:51<       Jetrel> It's clearly not anti-aliased, whatever it was that got used.
20081028 06:30:29<       Jetrel> I'm not sure what does/doesn't trigger it in the gimp, unfortunately. :(
20081028 06:30:30<          esr> Do you mean the land-sea border?
20081028 06:30:37<       Jetrel> Yep.
20081028 06:32:27<          esr> OK, here's what I did.  I took the old map, scaled it up to the appropriate size, flood-filled the interior, selected that by color, and then did "Stroke Selection" with a 5-pixel-wide brush dipped in the sea-margin color from the main map. 
20081028 06:33:12<       Jetrel> I'd drop some immediate bit of advice on how to switch it over, but I'm not quite an expert with the gimp (nor in fact do I know which tool you used to make those; especially the triple-border for the land->open sea transition.
20081028 06:33:44<          esr> Then I selected the sea, shrunk the selection by 6 pixels, and did a 1-pixel-wide stroke selection.  Repeated a second time, this gave me the tide-line effect.
20081028 06:33:44<       Jetrel> However, I would have time to look at it and figure out what caused it.
20081028 06:33:54<       Jetrel> Aha.
20081028 06:34:22 * esr awaits enlightenment.
20081028 06:34:59<          esr> So, what did I do wromg?
20081028 06:37:10<       Jetrel> dunno yet, was tying up one other loose end, which CIA will inform us of momentarily. :)
20081028 06:37:14<       CIA-41> jetryl * r30396 /trunk/images/buttons/ (3 files): Added graphics for a larger, more noticeable button type.
20081028 06:37:37<          esr> I'm really interested in larning how to do this better.  I'm never going to be a portraitist or a sprite artist, but I think decent map art is something I caasonably hope to achieve.
20081028 06:37:58<          esr> s/caasonably/can reasonably/
20081028 06:38:50<       Jetrel> esr: one other, more 'artsy' suggestion I'd give about the map design, which can hopefully be conveyed in math terms, is that I think the land edges would be helped with a little more fractal complexity.
20081028 06:39:16<          esr> Jetrel: You are quite right.
20081028 06:39:26<       Jetrel> You're actually reasonably good for someone just jumping into it - when I first drew any 'fantasy maps," I got this seriously wrong.
20081028 06:39:43<          esr> I'm going to work that seriously in my next attempt.
20081028 06:39:56<       Jetrel> (You have said you've done this before, and ironically have probably done more of these than me.)
20081028 06:40:50<          esr> This time, one of my goals was to re-use the general outline of the old sepias map so I wouldn''t be taking on a creative challenge at the same time as several technical ones.
20081028 06:41:15 * Jetrel nods.
20081028 06:41:29<       Jetrel> Yes, in my experience, it -really- helps to lock variables like that.
20081028 06:42:29<       Jetrel> Pardon me a moment, I'm downloading a new version of gimp - my old version wasn't booting (copied over from another computer).
20081028 06:42:32<          esr> The mountains and forest bits were frankensteined from the main map.  Now I have a tree brush, so I'll be able to freehand forests on my next try.
20081028 06:43:15<          esr> Mountains are still going to be a problem, though.
20081028 06:43:15<        Sirp_> Soliton: around?
20081028 06:43:26<        Sirp_> campaignd has been down for a long time now and I'm not sure how to restart it. :(
20081028 06:46:29<       Jetrel> esr: yeah... I think a number of parts of that were freehanded by kestenvarn, and integrated into existing mountain 'stamps' he had.
20081028 06:48:00<          esr> Mountain stamps?  Interesting...I'll try to get a copy of those.  He's responding to PM questions from me, so it might actually happen.
20081028 06:48:51<       Jetrel> esr: AHA.  I think I've found it.
20081028 06:49:01<          esr> Yes?
20081028 06:49:11<       Jetrel> This assumes you're using Gimp 2.6.x - I don't know if it's different in 2.4.x
20081028 06:49:24<          esr> 2.4, but go on.
20081028 06:49:29<       Jetrel> But in the "stroke selection" dialogue, you're given two main options:
20081028 06:50:01<       Jetrel> "Stroke line", which has a bunch of suboptions, and "Stroke with a paint tool", which has a choice of what tool to use.
20081028 06:50:21<          esr> I used "Sroke with a paint tool".
20081028 06:50:34<       Jetrel> "Stroke line" has a "Line Width" under it, and ... huh - I'd guess that's what you used, but apparently not.
20081028 06:50:37<          esr> And a 5-pixel-wide circular brush.
20081028 06:51:01<       Jetrel> :/
20081028 06:51:15<          esr> Hm.  Perhaps I should have used the fuzzy brush?
20081028 06:51:34<       Jetrel> No, I just used the plain circle brush.
20081028 06:52:26<          esr> And you're not getting the same artifacts I did?  Odd.
20081028 06:53:27<       Jetrel> On a lark, I might suggest upgrading to 2.6 - they may have made improvements in this area.
20081028 06:53:45<       Jetrel> And besides the point, they have made major improvements overall.
20081028 06:54:41<          esr> Um...hold on ,lemme find out if 2.6 has been packaged for Ubuntu yet.
20081028 06:54:55<       Jetrel> These were the settings I had:  http://www.allacrost.org/staff/user/jetryl/example.png
20081028 06:55:54<       Jetrel> esr: if there's any sort of "smoothing" or "antialias" setting in the brush options, make sure to check it.
20081028 06:56:34<       Jetrel> I know they used to have one, which always seemed a little wacky to me, since I thought the presence/lack of it _was_ the defining difference between the brush and pencil tool.
20081028 06:56:59<          esr> Crap.  That looks like what I did.
20081028 06:57:03<       Jetrel> (of course, more realistically, one could axe the pencil tool altogether)
20081028 06:57:30<          esr> (Yeah, that's what I'd have thought, too.)
20081028 06:57:31<      Soliton> Sirp_: yes.
20081028 06:58:08<       Jetrel> esr: do you mean my version looks jagged, or do you mean you forgot to check a box like that?
20081028 06:58:43<          esr> No, I mean it looks like we did the same thing angot different results :-(
20081028 06:58:49<       Jetrel> Aha.
20081028 06:59:35<       Jetrel> Yeah, try 2.6.  Some elf in my memory is whispering that this was one of the items they upgraded.
20081028 06:59:50<          esr> Think I'm gonna revisit this after I upgrade to Interpid Ibex next week. That'll have 2.6 on it.
20081028 07:00:06<       Jetrel> I don't know how much stock to put in that memory of mine, but ... who knows.
20081028 07:00:43<          esr> Actually, I'm kind of reassured.  Looks like I was non-stupid and the tool let me down a bit, as opposed to having done some embarassing dumbshit thing.
20081028 07:01:41<      Soliton> Sirp_: oh, going to take a look...
20081028 07:01:43<       Jetrel> Yeah.  Both gimp and photoshop have some batshit interface issues - in some cases, interface problems that were made early on and have compounded themselves over the decades.
20081028 07:03:16<       Jetrel> Anyways; the fractal complexity is probably the big "artistic" area to tackle with, and that much could be done on cocktail napkins, just sketching random coastlines.  Benj, who drew the maps you're replacing, had issues with it too.
20081028 07:04:11<       Jetrel> Kestenvarn had a really good sense for that, fortunately, so he's a good model to emulate.
20081028 07:05:11<          esr> OK, so the good news here is I'm actually pretty good at fractal doodling.  You can see it in some of the battle maps I drew for THoT -- I've already impressed santi eenough that he asked me to doctor one of the LoW maps.  And liked the results. 
20081028 07:06:05<          esr> *That* part won't be hard.  It's learning how to freehand mountains that I see as the big blocker.
20081028 07:07:48<       Jetrel> Well, I've got some interest in learning how to do that myself, so maybe we can tackle this together.  I've always wondered how kestenvarn did what he did.
20081028 07:08:16<          esr> Weirdly enough, I think it helps that I'm a musician.  That's generating 1/f noise too, you know.
20081028 07:08:33<       Jetrel> heh.
20081028 07:08:43<          esr> I'm not joking.
20081028 07:09:34<          esr> Music has the same self-scaling propeties and about the same fractal dimension as landscape contours.  Fact.
20081028 07:09:35<       Jetrel> More of a "marvelling at it" kind of chuckle, I guess.  It makes sense.
20081028 07:10:17<       Jetrel> Anyways, I'd better get some sleep.
20081028 07:10:43<       Jetrel> The sandman's looking spookier than usual.
20081028 07:11:36<          esr> G'nite then.  One last thought: I'me seriously thinking about writing a GIMP plugin in Scheme to generate constrained @D tractal textures.  I think you can see where that might lead.
20081028 07:11:46<          esr> @D -> 2D
20081028 07:13:39<      Soliton> Sirp_: looks like someone killed the trunk server. the 1.4 server died because of: "20081026 17:28:20 fatal network error: Could not add socket to socket set" though. (restarted both now.)
20081028 07:15:38<        Sirp_> Soliton: I killed the trunk server because I was hoping it'd automatically get restarted. :)
20081028 07:15:43<        Sirp_> but before I killed it it was hanging.
20081028 07:16:03<        Sirp_> and thank you for restarting
20081028 07:16:26<        Sirp_> can we get it so they automatically do restart if they exit?
20081028 07:16:30<        Sirp_> that way one can just get them restarted by killing them.
20081028 07:17:00<        Sirp_> ....and I am off to bed....goodnight!
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20081028 07:19:45<     mordante> morning
20081028 07:29:48-!- Sapient [n=sapien-x@c-71-59-35-203.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20081028 07:43:03<          esr> mordante: Hey! Are you back, or just dropping in to taunt is with you vactioning status?
20081028 07:43:16<      Sapient> yo mordante
20081028 07:43:27<          esr> s/is/us/
20081028 07:43:34<     mordante> esr no back, just drove back from Germany
20081028 07:43:37<     mordante> hi Sapient 
20081028 07:44:24<      Sapient> some kid was in here offering help on the widgets a couple days ago
20081028 07:44:37<      Sapient> he sent you a forum mail I think
20081028 07:44:40<          esr> mordante: Well, there is certainly plenty of work to be done.  I fixed a few bugs while you wree gone, but they've been piling up faster than I can stomp 'em.
20081028 07:45:57<     mordante> I got an email I have a PM but haven't read it, still catching up reading my emails
20081028 07:46:40<     mordante> esr I'm just looking at the one you assigned to me
20081028 08:05:16<       CIA-41> zookeeper * r30397 /trunk/data/campaigns/Son_Of_The_Black_Eye/scenarios/04_The_Siege_Of_Barag_Gor.cfg: Cleaned up village ownership setup (a possible contributor to bug #12513 due to some invalid coordinates used?).
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20081028 08:34:03<       CIA-41> mordante * r30398 /trunk/src/help.cpp: Fix a compiler warning.
20081028 08:36:55<      Sapient> ah, the dreaded size_t. We are now safe to have over INT_MAX abilities
20081028 08:37:19<      Soliton> Sirp: right, i thought so. it restarts depending on the exit status but those are a bit messy... i've recently made it so a normal kill should restart it again but it wasn't recompiled yet. from now on it should work again like that... usually.
20081028 08:38:16<  loonycyborg> irclog.wesnoth.org is up again, but there's only old logs :(
20081028 08:38:49<     mordante> was already up yesterday evening and I don't have too much to read ;)
20081028 08:39:07<     mordante> well abilities are stored in a vector 
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20081028 08:39:45<  loonycyborg> mordante: Are you aware that currently install with autotools is broken?
20081028 08:39:46<      Soliton> mordante: i can provide more logs if you like.
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20081028 08:40:29<     mordante> loonycyborg no I'm not, but I never install. What's broken?
20081028 08:40:42<     mordante> Soliton yes please, can you email them?
20081028 08:41:29<  loonycyborg> It looks for localized man pages in wrong place AFAICT.
20081028 08:41:30<      Soliton> sure.
20081028 08:41:49<     mordante> thanks
20081028 08:42:05<     mordante> has the location of those files been changed? 
20081028 08:42:40<     mordante> I remember that not all man pages are translated any more, which causes problems on some systems...
20081028 08:42:44<  loonycyborg> No. But editor's man pages were removed.
20081028 08:43:20<     mordante> then I'll test later
20081028 08:43:29<  loonycyborg> Yes. po4a can drop a man page if there aren't enough string.
20081028 08:43:39<  loonycyborg> *strings
20081028 08:44:18<     mordante> yes and the man page did have quite some changes recently
20081028 08:46:17<        ettin> mordante, loonycyborg: http://ettin.org/tmp/man-skip.diff
20081028 08:47:21<        ettin> I can commit it if you are fine with it...
20081028 08:48:07<     mordante> I won't be able to test it now, but it looks oke to me 
20081028 08:50:17<        ettin> I'll test again since I have had it around for a while
20081028 08:50:56<     Ivanovic> mion
20081028 08:51:09<     Ivanovic> argh, s/mion/moin
20081028 08:51:16<     mordante> hi Ivanovic 
20081028 08:54:11<      Sapient> loonybot << "hav" << (float)numeric_limits<double>::max() << "un";
20081028 08:54:16<     loonybot> havinfun
20081028 08:54:36<     mordante> :)
20081028 08:56:03<     Ivanovic> loonycyborg: install is *not* broken because of the removal of wesnoth-editor manpages
20081028 08:56:53<     Ivanovic> it is (only on some systems) broken because not all the files are existant and we set some "~80% have to be translated for the manpage to be created" which is, due to many changes, not given atm
20081028 09:03:54<        ettin> Ivanovic: isn't that broken enough to deserve a trivial fix?
20081028 09:04:10<     Ivanovic> ettin: sure, trival fixes are *always* welcome
20081028 09:04:16<     Ivanovic> and your patch looks good for this
20081028 09:04:31<      Soliton> mordante: what logs do you want exactly? wesnoth-dev from 24th to today?
20081028 09:04:41<     mordante> yes
20081028 09:06:01<      Sapient> "If into the security recordings you go, only pain will you find."
20081028 09:10:16<     Ivanovic> off to uni, cu
20081028 09:11:59<      Soliton> mordante: i actually can't send emails easily from here so the logs are here: http://www.wesnoth.org/files/logs/wesnoth-dev.logs.tar
20081028 09:12:39<      Soliton> i could easily setup logging on wesnoth.org btw... maybe i should do that some time.
20081028 09:14:18<     mordante> I got them thanks
20081028 09:23:27<       CIA-41> esr * r30399 /trunk/data/tools/trackplacer: Trackplacer: work correctly on wesnoth-umc-dev with a -d argument.
20081028 09:24:38<      Soliton> exit(-1); should give me an exit code of 255 or so, no?
20081028 09:24:51<          esr> Soliton: That's reight.
20081028 09:26:45<      Soliton> hmm, somehow it's still 1 though when i kill campaignd with SIGHUP or SIGTERM..
20081028 09:38:50<     mordante> Sapient do you still have the linking problems?
20081028 09:39:00<      Sapient> mordante: no
20081028 09:39:10<      Sapient> I don't know who or what fixed it, though
20081028 09:39:37<     mordante> ok also no idea what could have been wrong :/
20081028 09:41:36<      Soliton> bah, now i changed it to 255 explicitely and it still returns 1..
20081028 09:50:23<      Sapient> a-ha
20081028 09:50:34<      Sapient> http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth/trunk/src/pathfind.cpp?rev=29531&r1=29530&r2=29531&view=diff
20081028 09:51:22<      Sapient> this method which checks the turns to complete is having side effects in the route object
20081028 09:52:25<      Sapient> although, the waypoints were intended side effects, not sure about the move_left (suspicious)
20081028 09:52:43<      Soliton> oops, the run script had bad logic...
20081028 09:53:55<       CIA-41> esr * r30400 /trunk/data/tools/trackplacer: trackplacer: More tweaks to handle working in wesnoth-umc-dev gracefully.
20081028 09:54:35<      Soliton> what exit code range does one usually use for custom errors?
20081028 09:54:47<      Soliton> campaignd returns 1-3 on various errors.
20081028 09:55:31<      Sapient> esr: that is the one thing you never tried reverting, in pathfind.cpp ?
20081028 09:55:42<      Sapient> it could be the key
20081028 09:56:38<          esr> No, it isn't  I think I folded in suokko's changes to pathfinding.
20081028 09:57:14<          esr> TheEr...wait...
20081028 09:57:29<          esr> Acxtually, I may have misundetrstood you.  
20081028 09:58:07<          esr> I think I did not touch pathfind.cpp in my original drastic revert.  Let me check.
20081028 09:59:55<      Sapient> this could certainly explain some of the screwy behavior with the AI moves
20081028 10:00:03<      Sapient> I'll just do a before/after test
20081028 10:02:40<      Sapient> as quick as my laptop allows, anyways
20081028 10:02:52 * Sapient ~_~
20081028 10:04:52<      Sapient> ah, I give up. if someone wants to try commenting out the following lines in pathfind.cpp I'd appreciate it
20081028 10:05:00<      Sapient> /*	if (turns == 1)
20081028 10:05:00<      Sapient> 		rt.move_left = movement;
20081028 10:05:00<      Sapient> 	else
20081028 10:05:00<      Sapient> 		rt.move_left = 0;*/
20081028 10:05:40<      Sapient> then try playing Bay of Pearls in HttT and just end your turn several times without advancing and see if the AI moves
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20081028 10:08:45<          esr> I've chwecked,and I never touched sukko's pathfind.cpp changes.  I'll try your test.
20081028 10:11:03<          esr> It sounds like this was a good side-effect to remove on general cleanliness grounds.
20081028 10:12:35<          esr> Still building.
20081028 10:12:46<          esr> Testing...
20081028 10:14:23<          esr> Am at Bay of Pearls...
20081028 10:15:29<          esr> Nope.  The bad guys just sit in their keeps.
20081028 10:15:57<          esr> That side effect is suspicious, all right, but probably not the culprit.
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20081028 11:27:43<       CIA-41> esr * r30401 /branches/resources/cartography-tools/ (great-continent.xcf map-howto.txt): 
20081028 11:27:43<       CIA-41> Manually antialiased the land-sea edges in the Far North map.
20081028 11:27:43<       CIA-41> Changed the instructions so this can be avoided in future.
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20081028 11:30:47<       CIA-41> esr * r30402 /trunk/data/campaigns/Son_Of_The_Black_Eye/images/farnorth.png: New Far North map with antialiased land/sea edges and roads.
20081028 11:35:01<       CIA-41> jorda * r30403 /trunk/doc/man/Makefile.am: Check availability of manpages before installing them
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20081028 15:13:08<       AI0867> esr: wmlindent doesn't handle stuff like
20081028 15:13:08<       AI0867> #define KALENZ_COLOUR brown#enddef
20081028 15:13:10<       AI0867> well
20081028 15:13:19<       AI0867> err
20081028 15:13:24<       AI0867> it's supposed to look like
20081028 15:13:28<       AI0867> #define MACRO
20081028 15:13:32<       AI0867> contents#enddef
20081028 15:13:43<       AI0867> wmlindent doesn't see the #enddef
20081028 15:15:14<      Sapient> I can look at that later tonight if esr doesn't get to it
20081028 15:18:15<       AI0867> hmm, Delfador has some dwarvish language in DM 20
20081028 15:18:57<       AI0867> We will need yer assistance to get to the area north of Abez.
20081028 15:28:40-!- crimson_penguin [n=ben@64.201.60.220] has quit ["Leaving"]
20081028 15:55:35<          esr> *Yawn*  Just woke up and I see I'm needed.  I'll fix Delf's inadvertent accwnt, then look at wmlindent,
20081028 15:56:21<          esr> zookeeper: I antialiasesed the Far North land-sea border by hand last night.
20081028 15:59:43<          esr> Jetryl: ping?
20081028 16:01:50<    zookeeper> esr, i noticed. haven't looked at it yet.
20081028 16:03:23<          esr> Also, Delfador's Memoirs is now wmmlint- and wmlscope-clean and all the duplicate portraits are gone.  The Southern Pass map still kinda sucks, though, you were right about that :-)  I'll probably fix that today.
20081028 16:05:56<       CIA-41> esr * r30404 /trunk/data/tools/wmlindent: Handle macros with an #endif not at start of line.
20081028 16:10:55<    zookeeper> then the campaign menu and difficulty level icons need TC, etc
20081028 16:20:14<    zookeeper> btw, i'm actually in the process of doing my long overdue TSG projects, like rewriting the long march again.
20081028 16:21:39<    zookeeper> i'm not sure what exactly i should do to the elf branch. the vengeance scenario makes little sense to me (in addition to having rather poor gameplay), and i'd like to replace ho-we-elves-just-go-berserk-for-no-real-reason with something more fitting.
20081028 16:22:13<    zookeeper> like, maybe mebrin actually has some kind of an elvish cult
20081028 16:22:32<    zookeeper> i mean, m'brin
20081028 16:22:38<          esr> zookeeper: I agree that always seemed like a weird and unsatisfactory ending.
20081028 16:23:03<    zookeeper> so they'd be the ones to attack you, not the "normal" elves who just think you killed him or something
20081028 16:24:26<    zookeeper> i also tried to actually make some kind of a connection between the end of choice in the fog after picking bandits and the next scenarios. previously it was just "woohoo! we won!" and then you just get undead attacking you in the next scenario(s) basically without explanation.
20081028 16:25:32<    zookeeper> (so now they just can't get into the catacombs due to some magical seal or whatnot if the elves aren't around, and so they have to retreat back to westin)
20081028 16:28:16<          esr> zookeeper: If Kestenvarn reveals enough of his secrets I might try composing a map for TSG where the top edge is the south edge of the main map.
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20081028 16:39:10< kalenzzzzzzz> anyone know about a bug in version 30312 where an enemy leader teleports to your keep?
20081028 16:47:10<     stikonas> kalenzzzzzzz: I've seen a special case of this bug. In Nothern Rebirth green leader teleports to villages (at least in 1st scenario).
20081028 16:47:57< kalenzzzzzzz> I also have this in LoW with an orcish enemy leader. Is it known  or has it been fixed?
20081028 16:48:38<  loonycyborg> I've also seen enemy leaders teleport instead of moving.
20081028 16:49:26< kalenzzzzzzz> interestingly this also screws up replays because replay checks that the movement points do not match the "teleport"
20081028 16:52:11<     stikonas> probably something is wrong with the calculations of coordinates
20081028 16:52:47<     Ivanovic> hi
20081028 16:52:54<     mordante> hi Ivanovic 
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20081028 17:50:43<         Sirp> Soliton: thank you!
20081028 17:50:47<         Sirp> hi Ivanovic, mordante 
20081028 18:02:35<          esr> Sirp: You got that laptop together yet?  Looks like the AI's going to need some serious work after all.
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20081028 18:13:00<     mordante> hi Sirp 
20081028 18:13:53<         Sirp> esr: not quite yet.....what kind of work does it need?
20081028 18:14:31<          esr> See the log.  AI side leaders are teleporting around ;-)
20081028 18:15:14<       CIA-41> soliton * r30405 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios/ (3 files): fixed some typos
20081028 18:15:21<       CIA-41> soliton * r30406 /trunk/ (2 files in 2 dirs): corrected exit code handling
20081028 18:15:24<     mordante> logs are down at the moment ;)
20081028 18:15:26<       CIA-41> soliton * r30407 /trunk/src/ai.cpp: small logic simplification for better readability
20081028 18:15:58<          esr> This may be a result of me trying to merge sukko's improvements back in - one of them was all about leader movement.  I may have screwed up, but at least I split his stuff into small commits.
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20081028 18:24:57<       CIA-41> soliton * r30408 /branches/1.4/src/campaign_server/campaign_server.cpp: corrected exit code handling
20081028 18:25:09<     Ivanovic> esr: do you really plan on adding delfadors memories for 1.6?
20081028 18:25:22<     Ivanovic> i do seriously opose against this!
20081028 18:25:32<     Ivanovic> that is: if you had added this already in june: fine
20081028 18:25:49<     Ivanovic> now is IMO too late since you will do at least one more month of polishing and changing strings after it is added
20081028 18:26:12<     Ivanovic> yes, getting it ready in general is perfect and add it to the campaign server having it marked translatable
20081028 18:26:31<         Sirp> esr: well, I'll try to look at it....
20081028 18:27:40<    zookeeper> Ivanovic, depends on when we might get 1.6 done
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20081028 18:28:09<    zookeeper> it doesn't look like we could get 1.6 out by for example new year at all to me.
20081028 18:28:22<     Ivanovic> zookeeper: i would really love to see a list from each dev with "currently working on" and "want to have XYZ in 1.6"
20081028 18:28:39<     Ivanovic> plus, of course, "xyz will take me abc seconds"
20081028 18:29:08<      Soliton> the problems are in areas noone's working on though. ;-)
20081028 18:30:57<     mordante> we had some nice talks at the Google Mentor summit and I'll put some of the info on the wiki and on the dev-ml. I hope to have time for it tomorrow evening, this evening I'll need to catch up my email etc.
20081028 18:31:31<     Ivanovic> Soliton: then a list of what is currently "problematic" without someone working on is a thing we really need
20081028 18:31:41<          esr> Ivanovic: Itall depends on whether we can get it done before your November translation freeze. And I mean *really* done, like no string tweaks for a week.  That gives us two weeks yet,
20081028 18:32:04<     mordante> how much string is DM?
20081028 18:32:11<     mordante> strings*
20081028 18:32:20<     Ivanovic> by far too many!
20081028 18:32:33 * mordante expected that answer
20081028 18:32:34<     Ivanovic> IIRC something like 600
20081028 18:32:44<          esr> mordante: I don't know.  Is there an easy way to measure it?
20081028 18:33:08<     mordante> is there a recent PO file for it?
20081028 18:33:10<     Ivanovic> have it in wescamp when working on it...
20081028 18:34:42<     Ivanovic> a by now ancient version is in the old wescamp directly reachable via the svn web interface
20081028 18:34:46<     Ivanovic> http://svn.berlios.de/viewcvs/wescamp-i18n/
20081028 18:36:12<     Ivanovic> this ancient version has some ~300 strings but is, like i said, ancient
20081028 18:36:21 * esr just wrote the scene where Delfador gets the title "the Great".  It's pretty good.
20081028 18:37:01<          esr> Iliah-Malal: So we meet again, Delfador. You were a fool to turn down my offer. None of your allies will save you now.
20081028 18:37:20<          esr> Delfador: You have ravaged your own soul with your corrupt arts, and your words are wind; I fear them not.
20081028 18:37:41<          esr> Iliah-Malal: Is he not amusing, my creatures? He puffs himself up as though he were Delfador the Mighty, Delfador the Powerful, Delfador the Great...rather than a jumped-up hedge wizard I shall shortly crush beneath my heel.
20081028 18:38:02<          esr> Delfador: Delfador the Great, eh? And so it comes to pass as the four Oracles foretold. I accept your name-gift, Iliah-Malal.
20081028 18:38:19<          esr> Iliah-Malal: Oracles? What nonsense you babble...after you die, I will raise your corpse and compel you to tell me how to reopen my portal!
20081028 18:38:38<          esr> Delfador: One of us will find a final death here. I do not think it will be me.
20081028 18:39:10<          esr> Cue the ominous background music.
20081028 18:39:20<          esr> Ghod, I love this stuff.
20081028 19:15:51<    Patterner> What is the best way to let "~/svn/Wesnoth/wesnoth" find the data in "~/svn/wesnoth-umc-dev"?
20081028 19:16:46<      Soliton> compile it in or give the dir as the parameter.
20081028 19:17:47<  loonycyborg> Patterner: What exactly are you trying to do? Make it find campaigns from wesnoth-umc-dev svn?
20081028 19:18:41<    Patterner> yes
20081028 19:18:54<  loonycyborg> I've made a symlink from IftU to .wesnoth/data/campaigns
20081028 19:18:57<      Soliton> oh.
20081028 19:19:27<  loonycyborg> Perhaps this can be generalized..
20081028 19:19:56<  loonycyborg> That is, symlink wesnoth-umc-dev trunk to .wesnoth/data/campaigns
20081028 19:20:55<    Patterner> for f in ~/svn/wesnoth-umc-dev/*; do ln -s $f ~/svn/Wesnoth/data/campaigns/; done # :)
20081028 19:21:29<      Soliton> cp -l
20081028 19:22:34 * esr has symlinked Delfador's Memoirs to his Wesnoth checkout so all his sanity-checkers will work.
20081028 19:24:31<      Soliton> the "Could not add socket to socket set" error that killed campaignd-1.4 comes from a failing SDLNet_TCP_AddSocket(). anyone an idea how that could happen?
20081028 19:25:11 * Ivanovic just remembers what sam said regarding sdl-net
20081028 19:25:19<     Ivanovic> that we should not be using it...
20081028 19:25:20<     Ivanovic> ;)
20081028 19:25:49<      Soliton> did he also volunteer to transition wesnoth to another lib? :-)
20081028 19:26:18<     Ivanovic> Soliton: if you find any bugs with sdl, make sure that it reaches the sdl bugtracker, too
20081028 19:26:23<  loonycyborg> There's some work done on boost asio integration in the trunk.
20081028 19:26:41<     Ivanovic> then maybe sam can fix at least some of the worst ones
20081028 19:27:13<      Soliton> there is a comment in the documentation example: // perhaps you need to restart the set and make it bigger...
20081028 19:27:23<      Soliton> so i guess we had too many connections at once.
20081028 19:27:33<     mordante> sam advised to use sockets
20081028 19:27:54<      Soliton> probably also caused by some ghost connections.
20081028 19:28:27<          esr> "Could not add socket to socket set" would make sense if we'd, say, overflowed either the socket set size or the system fd limit.
20081028 19:28:45<      Soliton> it seems the former happened.
20081028 19:29:06<          esr> Does the server time out connections that have no activity for a while?
20081028 19:29:22<      Soliton> it should but i think there are some bugs left.
20081028 19:30:01 * esr has written this kind of code before, and no he's *not* volunteering to do it in C++.
20081028 19:31:19<          esr> http://gpsd.berlios.de/
20081028 19:40:22 * stikonas was not able to use gpsd with locale that have, as decimal separator. All float variables in gpsdata struct were rounded to integers.
20081028 19:43:47<       CIA-41> esr * r30409 /trunk/data/tools/trackplacer: Add buttons to reorder tracks.
20081028 19:44:21-!- [Relic] [n=[Relic]@adsl-76-229-220-201.dsl.milwwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20081028 19:44:34<          esr> stikonas: File a bug.  We'll fix it.
20081028 19:46:16<     mordante> hi [Relic] 
20081028 19:53:42<     stikonas> esr: the problem is that I have not found bug tracker. Can you give me an URL?
20081028 19:54:52<          esr> http://developer.berlios.de/bugs/?group_id=2116
20081028 19:55:05<     stikonas> esr: thanks
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20081028 21:53:35-!- Espreon [n=espreon@c-76-117-239-33.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20081028 21:54:59<      Espreon> esr: Here?
20081028 21:55:15<          esr> Yes.
20081028 21:55:29<      Espreon> I am not gonna make Photoshop brushes...
20081028 21:55:58<          esr> Doesn't bother me, I'd rather enhance the GIMOP's capabilities.
20081028 21:56:04<      Espreon> Yeah...
20081028 21:56:12<          esr> s/GIMOP/GIMP/
20081028 21:56:24<      Espreon> If a PS user wants them to work with PS... then too bad... they'll have to figure it out and whatnot.
20081028 21:56:34<          esr> How do you convert brushes from .gih to .gbr?
20081028 21:56:44<      Espreon> It is quite simple.
20081028 21:56:54<      Espreon> You just resave it as a .gbr.
20081028 21:57:09<          esr> (I'm running 2.6 now, by the way.)
20081028 21:57:27<          esr> You mean you just visit the file?
20081028 21:57:31<      Espreon> Speaking of which I need to compile 2.6.
20081028 21:57:37<      Espreon> esr: Yes.
20081028 21:57:42<      Espreon> Just find it and resave it.
20081028 21:57:52<          esr> Well, that's easy.
20081028 21:57:55<      Espreon> I think you still need to input the spacing values.
20081028 21:57:59<      Espreon> *reinput
20081028 21:58:04<          esr> Sure.
20081028 21:58:17<      Espreon> esr: Did setting it to 50 on the tree brush do it?
20081028 21:58:56<          esr> *blush* I still haven't tested that.  Got caght up in working on Delfador's Nemoirs.
20081028 21:59:01-!- ilor [n=a@unaffiliated/ilor] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20081028 21:59:10<          esr> s/Nemoirs/Memoirs/
20081028 21:59:35<          esr> I'm in the middle of revising dialog now.
20081028 22:00:00<      Espreon> I never played DM... should I be ashamed?
20081028 22:01:48<          esr> Nah.  It was incomplete and petty scratchy.  Good concepts, though.
20081028 22:02:00<      Espreon> Meh, I would rather work on TSL or play IFtU.
20081028 22:02:09<      Espreon> ATM
20081028 22:03:37<      Espreon> esr: I guess you have never heard of TSL.
20081028 22:03:49<          esr> TSL = ?
20081028 22:04:02<      Espreon> TSL = The Silver Lands
20081028 22:04:14<      Espreon> It is an indirect sequel to IFtU.
20081028 22:05:15<          esr> Is ut on umc-dev?
20081028 22:05:19<      Espreon> Yup.
20081028 22:05:33<          esr> I'll have to look at it.
20081028 22:05:46<      Espreon> Thank you.
20081028 22:06:00<      Espreon> Please excuse my abuse of ellipses...
20081028 22:07:41<      Espreon> I really hope Malkin Keshar (the user on the forums) saw my message.
20081028 22:08:00<      Espreon> Ugh... how dare Orcish Shyde interrupt my divine message.
20081028 22:08:26 * zookeeper can't get [terrain_mask] to work
20081028 22:08:56 * esr boggles at the concept of an Orcish Shyde.  What do they do, strap on JATO units?
20081028 22:09:15<      Espreon> esr: I am talking about the user.
20081028 22:10:04 * loonycyborg fails to find word Shyde in www.thefreedictionary.com
20081028 22:11:06<      Espreon> Orcish Shyde (the user) interrupted my divine message on DiD's topic.
20081028 22:15:41<      Espreon> esr: I hope Quietus did not die... then who will animate the Verlisshi?
20081028 22:17:08<    zookeeper> duuuh, i'm an idiot. i was just using map_data= instead of mask= -.-
20081028 22:17:55<      Espreon> We all make mistakes... that is all...
20081028 22:17:56-!- Sapien-X99 [n=sapien-x@c-71-59-35-203.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20081028 22:17:59-!- Sapien-X99 is now known as Sapient
20081028 22:18:07<      Espreon> Sapient: Something horrible happened...
20081028 22:18:12<      Sapient> yo Espreon
20081028 22:18:38<      Sapient> you accidentally voted for Ron Paul?
20081028 22:18:55<      Espreon> No, I accidentally voted for Fidel Castro.
20081028 22:19:06<      Sapient> dang, sorry :p
20081028 22:19:15 * esr hands zookeeper a fish so he can slap himself
20081028 22:19:26<    zookeeper> is it a trout?
20081028 22:19:48<      Espreon> But really, Orcish Shyde (the user) thinks that my divine message on the DiD topic to Malin Keshar (the user) was harsh...
20081028 22:19:54 * esr hands Esprean a 20-pound sledge so *he* can slap *himself*.
20081028 22:20:19<      Espreon> esr: Who is Esprean?
20081028 22:20:31<          esr> A carnivorous typo.
20081028 22:20:39<      Espreon> Ah.
20081028 22:20:52<      Espreon> Sapient: Isn't that horrible or what?
20081028 22:21:25<  loonycyborg> esr: What does shyde mean anyway? I can't find it in dictionary or wikipedia.
20081028 22:21:48<      Sapient> umm... yes. woe are we, the board dwellers. let the terror rain down upon us. verily
20081028 22:22:52<          esr> I can't either.  I've never encountered the word before, and my recognition vocabulary in English is absurdly large even for an educated native speaker.  I think it must have been invented here.
20081028 22:23:02<      Espreon> Ugh... I really wish they would realize that we are not the forum dwellers' servants.
20081028 22:23:24<      Sapient> I'll post a response
20081028 22:23:43<      Espreon> esr: Is that so? What does zyxt mean?
20081028 22:24:11<          esr> It's Espreonese for "I just made this up!".
20081028 22:24:50<      Espreon> esr: WRONG!
20081028 22:25:21<          esr> I see it's acrtually an obscure Kentish dialect word.  Well played!
20081028 22:25:48<      Espreon> esr: Also what does gelid mean?
20081028 22:26:33<          esr> Just what you'd think it does from the sound, actally :-)
20081028 22:26:55-!- zookeeper [n=l@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe11fa00-51.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit []
20081028 22:27:11<      Espreon> Tell me the definition... otherwise I will have to eat this cake in front of you.
20081028 22:27:51<          esr> Cold, and specifically, cold *wet* conditions.  A lot of dictionaries undermphasize the 'wet' part for some reason.
20081028 22:28:14<      Espreon> Good...
20081028 22:28:21<      Espreon> Now what does ostensibly mean?
20081028 22:29:21<          esr> That one's easy.  When you say something is "ostensibly" X, you are conveying that someone told you it is X but implying that you doubt the information.
20081028 22:29:35<      Espreon> I declare my Wii to be *UBAR.
20081028 22:29:39<      Espreon> esr: Good...
20081028 22:29:57<          esr> It may also refer to a surface appearance of things about which you have doubt.
20081028 22:30:06<      Espreon> Now, what does difficile mean?
20081028 22:30:42<          esr> It comes from a rare verb "to ostend", meaning roughly "to have in one's field of view".
20081028 22:31:12<      Espreon> And...
20081028 22:31:29<          esr> I actually don't know "difficile".  Where are you getting these?
20081028 22:31:40<      Espreon> *Espreon loves to study obsolete words*
20081028 22:32:01<      Espreon> Anyway, difficile is an obsolete English word meaning difficult.
20081028 22:32:17<          esr> That's what I'd have guessed.
20081028 22:33:09<      Sapient> Espreon: posted
20081028 22:33:18<      Espreon> Sapient: Muy bueno.
20081028 22:34:09<      Espreon> Sapient: Great post.
20081028 22:34:35<      Sapient> thou art welcome
20081028 22:35:14<          esr> Interestingly, I notice that "ostend" is only on line as the name of a city.  I'm not surprised -- I've only encountered the verb as technical jargon in philosophy; it's possible that I have it backwards and that "to ostend" is a recent back-formation from "ostensible".
20081028 22:35:44<          esr> In fact now that I think of it that seems more likely.
20081028 22:35:50<      Sapient> esr: did anyone get a chance to try out that pathfind.cpp change?
20081028 22:36:04<      Espreon> I never hear a "normal" person say thrice; everyone says twice, but never "two times"; yet, I hear everyone say "three times" instead of thrice... WHY IS THIS!
20081028 22:36:15<          esr> Sapient: I did.  It did *not* fix Bay of Pearls.
20081028 22:36:24<      Sapient> ah drat
20081028 22:36:44<      Espreon> What is wrong with Bay o' Pearls?
20081028 22:36:56<      Sapient> the AI just sits there until you get in range
20081028 22:36:57<          esr> Espreon: Because "thrice" is poetic and obsolete.  I don't think it's been production English since around 1800.
20081028 22:37:15<      Espreon> esr: I thought it was just archaic...
20081028 22:37:28<          esr> Sapient: Hold on, I had a suggestion about that....
20081028 22:37:56<      Sapient> or maybe because they're scared of coming up with an equivalent word for 4, so they stop short ;)
20081028 22:38:11<      Espreon> I wish there was a word for "four times."
20081028 22:38:16<      Espreon> Maybe I will invent it.
20081028 22:38:29<      Espreon> Then I need to get enough people to use it...
20081028 22:39:06<          esr> Espreon: It should be "Fice", I think, but I doubt that's gonna fly :-)
20081028 22:39:13<      Espreon> I know.
20081028 22:39:16<      Sapient> qrist!
20081028 22:39:36<      Espreon> esr: Did you look at TSL?
20081028 22:40:06<          esr> "qrist" sounds like the name of some lame pseudo-cool strategy game from Parker Brothers.
20081028 22:40:10<      Espreon> *Espreon has an unusual desire to learn Old English and Old Norse*
20081028 22:40:32-!- Netsplit orwell.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: ilor, stikonas, Rhonda
20081028 22:40:36-!- Netsplit orwell.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: isaac, Elvish_Pillager, mjs-de, Rh0nda, Sirp, erl
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20081028 22:40:47<      Espreon> I hate it that they replaced thorn with "th."
20081028 22:40:50<          esr> Espreon: No, I'm hacking dialog and spending too much bandwidth on IRC at the moment.
20081028 22:40:50<      Espreon> THAT WAS SCARY...
20081028 22:41:10<      Espreon> OK.
20081028 22:41:13<      Sapient> netsplit you mean?
20081028 22:41:26<      Espreon> But seriously... I wish thorn was never replaced with "th."
20081028 22:41:27-!- Sirp_ [n=davidwhi@nat/google/x-4304d9bbba39de1e] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20081028 22:41:37-!- Netsplit over, joins: isaac
20081028 22:41:54<      Sapient> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netsplit
20081028 22:42:14 * esr does'nt find Espreon's desire unusual at all.  Of course, esr has been known to compose poetry in Anglo-Saxon long metere, so he is arguably a bit nuts on this subject.
20081028 22:43:02<      Espreon> esr: You know so much and whatnot... Why did they murder thorn's role in the English language.
20081028 22:43:11<      Espreon> *?
20081028 22:44:00<      Sapient> It is part of the illuminati plans
20081028 22:44:11<          esr> I'm actually not sure, but from the timing I'd say it probably had to do with the absorption of Danelaw English by the southern and Western Midlands varieties,
20081028 22:44:13<      Espreon> Thorn was killed long before they existed.
20081028 22:44:54<          esr> Thorn was an import from Scandinavian, of course.
20081028 22:45:09<      Espreon> Yup... Thorn came from the thorn rune.
20081028 22:45:34<      Espreon> I never write "th." I always use thorn while writing on paper.
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20081028 22:46:07<          esr> Well, I'd say thorn died out in English because English doesn't have a thorn/edh distinction.
20081028 22:46:28-!- Rh0nda [n=rhonda@oftc.net-irc-server.noreply.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
20081028 22:46:29<      Espreon> Whaddaya mean?
20081028 22:46:29-!- erl [n=erl@vetinte.spelaroll.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
20081028 22:46:59<          esr> Do you know what a "edh" is?
20081028 22:47:55<      Espreon> No, but I know what an ingwaz is... (Don't know its non-Elder Futhark name).
20081028 22:48:02-!- erl [n=erl@vetinte.spelaroll.se] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20081028 22:49:16<      Espreon> I would rather use ŋ instead of "ng."
20081028 22:49:35-!- Rh0nda [n=rhonda@anguilla.debian.or.at] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20081028 22:50:03<  loonycyborg> Espreon: How did you manage to type ŋ?
20081028 22:50:17<      Espreon> I did not.
20081028 22:50:38<      Espreon> I C&P'd it from the omniscient website.
20081028 22:52:02<      Sapient> you can look up the Alt+number sequence in Character Map
20081028 22:52:36<      Espreon> I do not bother with that.
20081028 22:53:13<      Espreon> Now to try to fix kdesvn...
20081028 22:53:16<  loonycyborg> Unfortunately, Alt+number doesn't seem to work on gentoo.
20081028 22:53:32<      Sapient> oh, I was referring to Windows
20081028 22:53:57<  loonycyborg> I don't remember it working on windows either.
20081028 22:54:57<          esr> See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Þ Edh is the runic letter for a voiced th.  Anglo-Saxon used it but deopped it, along with the sound, ealy on.  Thorn survived another four centuries or so, but without a distinction against edh it was easier just to use the 'th' digraph.  Thorn lacked the Latinate prestige of other "foreign" letters which have survived -- X, Y, Z.
20081028 22:54:59<      Espreon> I really wish that kdesvn would stop crashing...
20081028 22:55:35<  loonycyborg> I really wish that kdesvn would be as good as TortoiseSVN
20081028 22:55:40<          esr> Thorn = *unvoiced* th.
20081028 22:56:56<      Sapient> "If you know the Unicode equivalent of the character you want to insert, you can also insert a special character directly into a document without using Character Map. To do so, open the document and position the insertion point where you want the special character to appear. Then, with NUM LOCK on, hold down the ALT key while using the number pad keys to type the Unicode character value."
20081028 22:57:15<      Sapient> that probably got cut off
20081028 22:57:38<  loonycyborg> So, it should be typed in decimal?
20081028 22:57:43<          esr> So my guess is that thoern, lacking a real use in late Middle English, eventually passed out of use because the London and West Midlands dialects overwhelmed the Scandinavian-influenced East Midlands dialect.
20081028 22:57:53<      Espreon> I do not care if thorn is not pretigeous... I think it is silly replacing one letter with a combination of two letters.
20081028 22:58:22<          esr> However, I'm not a scholar in the field, so treat this as merely an educated guess.
20081028 22:58:27<      Sapient> loonycyborg: yeah, four digits decimal
20081028 22:58:37<      Espreon> I always use thorn when writing on paper...
20081028 22:59:09<  loonycyborg> Sapient: I guess it didn't work for me because I've forgot about num lock.
20081028 22:59:13<          esr> Heck, I used to jot my notes in Feanorian  <- Tolkien fanboy
20081028 22:59:43<      Espreon> I think I will start using ingwaz when writing...
20081028 22:59:48<      Sapient> I sometimes write notes in a secret and uncrackable code
20081028 23:00:20<      Sapient> the only problem with the code is I can't read it either
20081028 23:00:39<      Espreon> Then learn Elder Futhark.
20081028 23:00:52<      Espreon> Elder Futhark = fun.
20081028 23:01:44<      Espreon> MLA = Satanic organization.
20081028 23:02:09<      Espreon> They are replacing the word "bibilography" with "works cited."
20081028 23:02:12<      Espreon> BOO...
20081028 23:02:38-!- lobby [i=wesnoth@wesnoth.wesnoth.org] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20081028 23:02:45<      Espreon> *bibliography
20081028 23:02:56<      Espreon> esr: What do you think of the MLA?
20081028 23:04:07<          esr> I think they'd be more useful if they were actually about, say, modern language -- as opposed to the tiresome academic Marxism that seems to be their agenda.
20081028 23:05:14<      Espreon> Yup.
20081028 23:05:25<      Espreon> I wish the interrobang became a standard punctuation mark.
20081028 23:07:25<      Espreon> esr: What do you think about it?
20081028 23:07:35<          esr> Sapient: You still there?
20081028 23:08:28-!- YogiHH [i=YogiHH@c186078.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20081028 23:08:41<       YogiHH> hi everyone
20081028 23:08:45<      Espreon> Hello.
20081028 23:08:55<     mordante> hi YogiHH 
20081028 23:09:04<      Sapient> yo Yogi
20081028 23:09:09<          esr> I think interrobangs are cute but not all that functional.  I'd rather see genuinely new punctuation for different things - like, say, sarcastic inflrction.
20081028 23:09:31<          esr> Hey, YogiHH!  Are you back to code or just visiting?
20081028 23:09:47<       YogiHH> mordante: i have just read your post on the rants forum thread. I have a bad feeling about letting it be mainly unmoderated.
20081028 23:09:49<      Espreon> Well... some people are sometime baffled when they see an exclamation point being used on a sentence which can be taken either as a question or a statement.
20081028 23:10:09<      Espreon> And is intentionally a question,
20081028 23:10:35<          esr> I think "!?" does just fine in that situation.
20081028 23:10:39<       YogiHH> esr: well, kind of, my time is slowly getting better (and the mp 1vs1 boost slowly decreases ;-)
20081028 23:10:53<      Espreon> esr: But that and "?!" are considered poor form.
20081028 23:10:53<     mordante> I'm also not sure whether it will work, but I don't want to burn out our siths
20081028 23:12:09<      Espreon> So Mr. Interrobang comes in and saves the day...
20081028 23:12:21<          esr> Espreon: I so don't care about "poor form" when it increases the utility of the language.  Case in point; I use "you-all" for the second person plural even though I'm not a siutherner and it's considered rural, 'hick' usage.  I do this deliberately.
20081028 23:12:28<       YogiHH> mordante: I just don't want to provide the feeling that you won't have to behave on that forum
20081028 23:14:20<          esr> On the other hand, I get righteiusly pissed at people who confuse "All X are not alike" with "Not all X are alike".  The former claims that each X is distincr from all other X; the latter only that there is some X different from all others.
20081028 23:14:32<     mordante> yes I see your point... like I said I'm not sure whether it will work
20081028 23:14:51<      Espreon> On a side note I wish vosotros would die.
20081028 23:14:58<      Espreon> Whoops...
20081028 23:15:04<      Espreon> I meant "vosotros."
20081028 23:15:09<      Espreon> Sorry...
20081028 23:15:53<      Espreon> esr: I am curious... do you know any Spanish?
20081028 23:16:46<          esr> Espreon: At one time I was violingual in it, and still (very occasionally) dream in it.  My conscious knowledge of it is gone, however.
20081028 23:17:10<          esr> s/violingual/bilingual/ (interesting typo)
20081028 23:18:03<      Espreon> esr: Well I love Spanish... In fact I sometimes mix English and Spanish when I am speaking...
20081028 23:18:20<          esr> Which is your milk tongue?
20081028 23:18:26<      Espreon> English.
20081028 23:18:28<     mordante> Jetryl for your naga attack, can't you do the swoosh with a halo?
20081028 23:19:21<      Espreon> YES; I GOT KDESVN TO WORK!
20081028 23:19:55<      Espreon> Anyway, I wish "vosotros" would die... I just hate that word so much.
20081028 23:20:51<      Espreon> Does anyone agree?
20081028 23:21:05<       YogiHH> Espreon: Congrats, you just passed your dev initiation ;-D (i remember to shout something similar when i got svn to work finally :-)
20081028 23:21:22<        ettin> Espreon: no
20081028 23:21:25<        Sirp_> hi YogiHH, you're around. :)
20081028 23:21:35<      Espreon> ettin: Awww... but I love "ustedes."
20081028 23:22:20<      Espreon> Even though vosotros is "old-fashioned" I think I will still learn the conjugation for "vosotros" anyway...
20081028 23:22:24<       YogiHH> hi Sirp_, yep, i plan to slowly get back into coding, so i practice to hang around here a little :-)
20081028 23:22:36<     Ivanovic> YogiHH: uhm, Espreon already has commit access
20081028 23:22:38<     Ivanovic> ;)
20081028 23:22:51<      Espreon> That makes me happy.
20081028 23:22:55<     Ivanovic> YogiHH: hey, this is great news
20081028 23:23:04<     mordante> Sapient since when do you also speak German?
20081028 23:23:41<      Sapient> my roommate speaks it... and I used translate.google.com ;)
20081028 23:23:50<       YogiHH> hehe
20081028 23:23:53<     mordante> :)
20081028 23:23:58<        ettin> Espreon: since when is vosotros old-fashioned? ;)
20081028 23:24:38<      Espreon> ettin: Apparently, my Spanish-teacher says it is... But from what I read on the Internet it is not...
20081028 23:24:41<        ettin> Espreon: in Castilian, "ustedes" is the formal version of "vosotros"
20081028 23:24:54<      Espreon> ettin: I like the formal stuff...
20081028 23:25:21<      Espreon> Anyway, I hate "vosotros."
20081028 23:26:30<        ettin> Espreon: in america you probably hear it all the time, but it is really weird here
20081028 23:26:41<        ettin> Espreon: I mean, if it is not in the right context
20081028 23:26:46<      Espreon> ettin: You mean "ustedes?"
20081028 23:26:51<        ettin> Espreon: yes
20081028 23:27:01<      Espreon> ettin: Do you live in Spain?
20081028 23:27:10<      Sapient> my roommate grew up on an army base in Germany, but it's been a long time so he doesn't remember it that well
20081028 23:27:43<      Espreon> ettin: Do you?
20081028 23:28:03<        ettin> Espreon: yes
20081028 23:28:51<      Espreon> ettin: I just do not know why my Spanish teacher says it is "old-fashioned"... She says that she is teaching European Spanish...
20081028 23:29:07<      Espreon> Weird huh?
20081028 23:29:17<      Espreon> I think she is misinformed or something...
20081028 23:30:26<      Espreon> ettin: I never encountered a Spanish speaker outside of my school... And I only hear Spanish in my Spanish class and by those who are in my Spanish class...
20081028 23:31:11<      Espreon> I think I need to ask my teacher why she thinks that "vosotros" is old-fashioned.
20081028 23:31:54<        ettin> Espreon: american spanish will be the "standard" sooner or later anyway, so it is probably not that wrong
20081028 23:32:02<        Sirp_> YogiHH: I am hoping to get back into coding too. :)
20081028 23:32:10<      Espreon> ettin: I am being taught European Spanish though...
20081028 23:32:20<      Espreon> At least that is what my Spanish teacher says...
20081028 23:32:28<     Ivanovic> Sirp_: have you gotten a confirmation that the laptop was sent by now?
20081028 23:32:40<     Ivanovic> or are they still waiting for the parts?
20081028 23:32:42<     Ivanovic> ;)
20081028 23:32:48<       YogiHH> Sirp_: You mean wesnoth or just coding in general?
20081028 23:32:51<        Sirp_> Ivanovic: they said 7 business days, has only been 6.
20081028 23:32:55<      Espreon> ettin: Thanks for clarifying that.
20081028 23:33:00<        Sirp_> YogiHH: for Wesnoth; I do plenty of coding in general all the time. ;)
20081028 23:33:11<        Sirp_> YogiHH: I have way too many projects that I make the mistake of getting myself into. :)
20081028 23:33:12<       YogiHH> ah :-)
20081028 23:33:39<      Espreon> I will be back in a moment.
20081028 23:33:42-!- Espreon [n=espreon@c-76-117-239-33.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20081028 23:33:50<       YogiHH> yeah, i know what you are talking about :-)
20081028 23:37:55 * esr figured out how to enable a compose key: þ æ é ç ü  ṡ  Yippee!  :-)
20081028 23:39:42<          esr> Perhaps I will follow þe suggestion from Espreon and start using þ when I type on þis channel
20081028 23:44:57<          esr> Sirp_: Speaking of deliveries, I got a Googlepone.  And I;m liking it a lot.
20081028 23:45:03<        Sirp_> esr: cool. :)
20081028 23:45:17<        Sirp_> esr: ....and eventually it won't just be all Java...
20081028 23:45:24<          esr> Have you played with one yet?
20081028 23:45:39<        Sirp_> esr: I've only played around with the SDK a little....
20081028 23:45:42<  loonycyborg> esr: Do you also have an openmoko based phone? :)
20081028 23:46:08<          esr> loonycyborg: No.  They don't fricking *work*, unfortunately.
20081028 23:47:58<          esr> I bought a T-Mobile G1 this weekend.  And achieved something I've wanted since the last century -- hacked my default rintone to be the Star Trek communicator chirp.
20081028 23:48:37<          esr> It makes an excellent alert noise, BTW, so this is functional as well as geeky-cool.
20081028 23:49:07<     mordante> they had quite a cool presentation about the Android platform at the mentor summit :)
20081028 23:49:35<     mordante> it really some nice features
20081028 23:50:31<          esr> It rocks, hard. And I'm saying that as a phone user. Good features, very nice UI design. 
20081028 23:51:26<     mordante> yes but also some nice technical features like killing and restarting an application happens quite often
20081028 23:51:48<          esr> Apple should be afraid.  Very afraid.  Android doesn't have the cool multitouch gestures, but functionally I think it's equal to or better than the iPhone.  And likely to improve much faster.
20081028 23:52:12<     mordante> but it also is really a WIP, curious what direction it will take
20081028 23:53:23<     mordante> they have really some nifty ways to combine applications 
20081028 23:54:04<     mordante> and also some nice ideas about how the GUI behaves
20081028 23:54:26<     mordante> seems my ideas about the wesnoth GUI aren't that insane :) :)
20081028 23:55:23<        Sirp_> gee there are several billion phones in the world; Apple has sold around 10 million; why are they the ones who should be most afraid? :)
20081028 23:56:06-!- boucman [n=rosen@50.83.102-84.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20081028 23:56:14<        Sirp_> hi boucman 
20081028 23:56:29<     mordante> hi boucman 
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20081028 23:56:34-!- Elvish_Pillage2 [n=eli@71-10-234-12.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20081028 23:59:11<          esr> mordante: If your ideas about Wesnoth GUI were bad I'd already have had several heated arguments with you. Take my silence as as sign that I think you're exhibiting good taste :-)
20081028 23:59:25<     mordante> :)
--- Log closed Mi Okt 29 00:00:24 2008