--- Log opened Fri Dec 19 00:00:42 2008
20081219 00:00:48< CIA-8> esr * r31547 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/scenarios/03_Stirring_in_the_Night.cfg: 
20081219 00:00:48< CIA-8> If the elves recapture a tent, make it no longer count against the
20081219 00:00:48< CIA-8> loss threshold.
20081219 00:01:18< ESR_> fendrin: Well, that was easy.  All I had to do was add an event to increment the elven_camps variable when side 1 recaptures a village.
20081219 00:02:56-!- loonycyborg [n=sergey@79.139.247.111] has quit ["Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz"]
20081219 00:03:24< fendrin> ESR_: That's not intended by the author. The elves there get killed. Recapturing the villages does not bring them back to life.
20081219 00:03:39-!- loonybot [n=loonybot@79.139.247.111] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20081219 00:04:30< ESR_> Then your bug is a feature.
20081219 00:07:13< fendrin> ESR_: Example: A village v. The undead capture v. It is counted as lost for the elves. The player captures it back. The undeas take it again. It is counted a second time and so on. The player will be told after some events that he has lost too much villages. But this isn't true. The player only lost one village but this more than one time.
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20081219 00:12:42< ESR_> That's exactly what adding the increment event prevents.  So how is it wring, then?
20081219 00:12:52< ESR_> s/wring/wrong/
20081219 00:15:05< fendrin> ESR_: The increment event leads to the situation that the player has lost many villages through the scenario. But in the endphase he took all of them back. This will lead to the same state like not having lost any of them. The speech tells the player that all elves have survived and the costs for recruits won't be increased in later levels.
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20081219 00:50:11< JonW> hi I am 1.5.6 HttT  on easy I am a noob just got an ascertion fail! :( BfW closed down.....
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20081219 00:51:42< Sapient> right, so you either have to maintain an array of enemy owned villages, so you can tell when you *really* captured an enemy owned village, or you have to maintain an array of enemy captured villages, so they only get counted against you once
20081219 00:52:12< Sapient> the second option is probably easier / simpler
20081219 00:53:28< Sapient> ^^ ESR_ / fendrin
20081219 00:54:02< Sapient> JonW: an assertion failure means you found a bug in the C++
20081219 00:54:23< Sapient> see http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=16163
20081219 00:54:34< Sapient> and http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=12890
20081219 00:55:25< fendrin> Sapient: ESR_ : an event at scenario start that defines an event for each village in a foreach. the nested events are first_time_only=yes. no arrays needed.
20081219 00:55:49< JonW> Only problem is I don't know how it happened it was on the ai turn and it did'nt do it when I reloaded :( so no idea why it should.....
20081219 00:55:53< Sapient> fendrin: yes, that will work as well
20081219 00:56:08< ESR_> fendrin: If I understand you correctly, I think this is a design bug that can't be fixed by coding.
20081219 00:57:31< Sapient> ESR_: it may be possible to use [filter] [filter_location] owner_side="<enemy side number?>" to make your capture idea work
20081219 00:57:49< Sapient> but then again, I kinda suspect the owner side is already changed by the time moveto fires
20081219 00:57:57< Sapient> and/or capture event
20081219 00:58:25< Sapient> the capture event also fires when you capture a neutral village and that is the root of your problem
20081219 00:59:00< Sapient> but, we have already listed three ways to make it work
20081219 00:59:17 * Sapient afk
20081219 01:02:56< fendrin> ESR_: Please commit your fix, this will make the scenario be more playable again. I will fix the remaining issue after my exam which may be before the release.
20081219 01:03:20< ESR_> OK, I've already done so.
20081219 01:03:29< fendrin> ESR_: Thank you :-)
20081219 01:03:36< fendrin> good night everyone
20081219 01:03:41< Espreon> Good night.
20081219 01:04:03< JonW> Assertion failed!
20081219 01:04:05< JonW> Progam:.... \Battle for Wesnoth 1.5.6\wesnoth.exe
20081219 01:04:07< JonW> File: src\actions.cpp
20081219 01:04:08< JonW> Line: 2551
20081219 01:04:10< JonW> Expression: unit_itor !=units.end()
20081219 01:04:51< JonW> I am running under windows...
20081219 01:11:47-!- crimson_penguin [n=ben@64.201.60.217] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20081219 01:13:15< Espreon> Hello crimson_penguin.
20081219 01:15:14< JonW> the stderr text file only seems to hold data about were BfW is installed so no help there....
20081219 01:15:16< JonW> this happened when the unit had no turns left
20081219 01:17:27< crimson_penguin> Hi Espreon 
20081219 01:19:04-!- Jetrel [n=Jetrel@mn-10k-dhcp1-151.dsl.hickorytech.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20081219 01:19:16< Espreon> Hello Jetrel.
20081219 01:19:19< Jetrel> Hey
20081219 01:19:25< Jetrel> wesbot: seen mordante
20081219 01:19:25< wesbot> Jetrel: The person with the nick mordante last spoke 3h 13m ago.  3h 13m ago was here and on the channel #wesnoth-de with the message: "ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"
20081219 01:19:59< Jetrel> I need to know where to put the new portrait format images.
20081219 01:20:12< Jetrel> Looking to commit LordBob's new portraits.
20081219 01:20:35< thespaceinvader> Hey Jetrel
20081219 01:20:46< Jetrel> thespaceinvader:  hey - got your PM.
20081219 01:20:59< thespaceinvader> cool
20081219 01:21:01< Jetrel> ugh, so many things I'm dealing with at once.
20081219 01:21:21< thespaceinvader> i know the feeling
20081219 01:21:26< Jetrel> I'm just extended an offer to kitty to make her "Portrait Director".  She certainly deserves it.
20081219 01:21:55< Jetrel> If that sounds like she would have authority over me regarding portraits, that is intentional.
20081219 01:22:36< Espreon> Meh... I would have given her a more elaborate title. But Portrait Director is straightforward and sounds powerful.
20081219 01:22:39< thespaceinvader> that sounds reasonable
20081219 01:23:06< thespaceinvader> it would be about time she got committing privs, IMO - she's more than reliable enough to know when something's ready
20081219 01:23:54< Jetrel> She's done a bunch of work.  She's better than I am at that kind of art, and perhaps most importantly, we've now had enough experience with her that I think she's able to give reasonable "orders" regarding stuff like that.
20081219 01:24:45< Jetrel> That last bit is what I always worry about.  Someone who's good at making stuff, but might not be good at leading people, or at making really long-term plans.
20081219 01:25:36< Jetrel> As for committing privs, she actually turned them down - she doesn't want to muss around with the technical things, and would prefer to focus on just making art.
20081219 01:26:45< thespaceinvader> oh, fair enough
20081219 01:27:08< thespaceinvader> it would certainly be good for you to share the load a bit - you seem a bit frazzled at present
20081219 01:27:58< Jetrel> Oh I'm always frazzled.
20081219 01:28:29< Espreon> Heh... that is not surprising.
20081219 01:31:02< thespaceinvader> a little weight off the shoulders never hurt anyone
20081219 01:31:25< Espreon> Indeed.
20081219 01:31:52< Jetrel> Plus the thing really is that our whole bit about titles has always slightly been facetious.
20081219 01:32:45< Jetrel> I mean, the only reason I wanted the art director title, some year or so after I'd effectively become it, was to make newcomers to the forum actually follow suggestions from me on what they should try making to help out.
20081219 01:33:08< Jetrel> Prior to that, my suggestions kinda got lost in the noise, sometimes.
20081219 01:36:12< Jetrel> God damn.  Wesnoth is constantly logging me off the forums.
20081219 01:41:00< thespaceinvader> odd, no problems here
20081219 01:47:20< Espreon> Same here.
20081219 01:50:54< Jetrel> thespaceinvader:  the good news:  they're both commit-worthy.
20081219 01:51:21< thespaceinvader> thanks =)
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20081219 01:51:31< thespaceinvader> i fully take your crit into account btw
20081219 01:51:35< Jetrel> the bad news:  your shading is still a long ways off from being great (like kitty's is).  Don't feel bad, it's hard to do, and I myself probably am sucking hard at it.
20081219 01:51:47< thespaceinvader> i've been spending a lot of time scrutinising kitty's shading
20081219 01:51:52< thespaceinvader> it's deceptively simple
20081219 01:52:07< thespaceinvader> i'm getting closer, but definitely not there yet
20081219 01:52:15< Jetrel> Honestly, and I say this in my post on the forum, but I'm phrasing it differently here ...
20081219 01:52:27< Jetrel> The #1 thing is placement.
20081219 01:52:46< Jetrel> You can having shading with no blending whatsoever, and if it's placed right, it'll look good.
20081219 01:52:51< thespaceinvader> yeah
20081219 01:52:56< thespaceinvader> cel shading, essentially
20081219 01:53:00< Jetrel> Bingo.
20081219 01:53:15< Jetrel> One thing to study might actually be this comic:
20081219 01:53:16< thespaceinvader> it's amazing how close some of kitty's stuff comes to that actually
20081219 01:53:34< Jetrel> http://www.fantasyrealmsonline.com/
20081219 01:54:01< thespaceinvader> yeah
20081219 01:54:12< Jetrel> It's actually interesting how close -reality- comes to it, often.
20081219 01:54:59< thespaceinvader> yeah, indeed
20081219 01:55:21< Jetrel> I'm not necessarily so fond of how "cutesy manga" that comic is, but the artist (a german fellow named Niko Geyer) is wicked-good at several things, shading being a key one among them.
20081219 01:55:29< thespaceinvader> i've been doing my best to get practicwe in, but a lot of the difficulty comes in the fact that i just don't have the time to devote to doing studies etc
20081219 01:55:56< thespaceinvader> i've got the hang of a few details that should really help when i go back to doing ...y'know, stuff with skin
20081219 01:56:13< thespaceinvader> particularly the stuff from that itchstudios link about subsurface scattering
20081219 01:56:14< Jetrel> Yeah, no kidding.
20081219 01:56:31< Jetrel> I really have trouble with motivating myself to do studies.
20081219 01:57:08< thespaceinvader> it's one thing i noticed whilst doing the sotbe stuff - the skin would have looked a lot more like skin with a slight reddish border around the really hard hading
20081219 01:57:19< thespaceinvader> particularly noticeable on flar'tar's arm
20081219 01:57:29< thespaceinvader> yeah, i know
20081219 01:57:39 * Jetrel nods.  I've actually used that technique without really knowing what causes it.
20081219 01:57:44< thespaceinvader> it makes me really regret the crappiness of the art program at my old school
20081219 01:57:50< Jetrel> hehe
20081219 01:58:12< Jetrel> I've taken only two art classes in my life... both at college.
20081219 01:58:21< thespaceinvader> had that been better, i might have ended up actually doing art, instead of dropping it like it was hot when i was about 13 and coming back to it at age 19 or so
20081219 01:58:54< Jetrel> One was "perceptual drawing 101", and was absolute dog shit.  The other was "color theory 101", and that one I actually learned a few things in.
20081219 01:59:17< thespaceinvader> but they didn't do practical, comic-y artwork in school (which, as a total comics geek would have had my interest), they did painting and sculpture and lino cuts andf stuff
20081219 01:59:33< thespaceinvader> very little theory, a lot of here, try and paint a lovely picture
20081219 01:59:40< Jetrel> Bingo.
20081219 01:59:56< Jetrel> I mean they really didn't teach ANYTHING in my drawing class.
20081219 02:00:22< thespaceinvader> that's the stuff i needed
20081219 02:00:45< thespaceinvader> if someone had taught me how to draw the human form at 13, i would be in a radically different place now, i suspect
20081219 02:01:03< Jetrel> The critiques were total bullshit, too - one comment from the teacher really pops out in my mind, her telling some student that the student had "a very tender sense of lines", which was just like - what the fuck is that supposed to mean?
20081219 02:01:19< Jetrel> Yeah.
20081219 02:01:36< Jetrel> Of course for me, I never really drew anything till I was about 21.
20081219 02:02:05< Jetrel> I'd probably done a total of 20 drawings beforehand, in my -entire life-.
20081219 02:03:11< thespaceinvader> tender sense of lines
20081219 02:03:13< thespaceinvader> lolwut?
20081219 02:03:18< Jetrel> I know!
20081219 02:03:22< thespaceinvader> my granddad as a big artist
20081219 02:03:44< thespaceinvader> i used to love painting with him, but that was when i was a bit too young for him to teach me this sort of stuff, sadly
20081219 02:03:44< Jetrel> What pushed me over the edge was when I realized that no one was ever going to make art for my videogames.
20081219 02:04:03< thespaceinvader> if you want something done right, eh?
20081219 02:04:11< Jetrel> And that if I wanted to get art, I had to learn to make it myself.
20081219 02:04:19< Jetrel> No, I mean no one was going to make it period.
20081219 02:04:28< Jetrel> Because I couldn't afford to pay for it.
20081219 02:05:24< Jetrel> Plus I knew that if I was gonna own - and manage - a videogame company, I would be an incompetent "pointy-haired-manager" if I didn't understand how the artists did their jobs.
20081219 02:06:26< thespaceinvader> good philosophy
20081219 02:06:33< thespaceinvader> is that what you're doing now, then?
20081219 02:06:38< Jetrel> The thing about being a manager is that you ideally should know how to do any of your subordinate's jobs.  If you don't, you have no way of knowing 1] how productive they are 2] how good they are 3] how good the work really is
20081219 02:07:23< Jetrel> thespaceinvader:  actually, no - I just quit a job as a grunt coder at a web programming shop.  Code factory, a lot like in the movie "office space".  Hated it.
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20081219 02:07:53< thespaceinvader> i know that feeling
20081219 02:07:58< thespaceinvader> drudgy work sucks
20081219 02:08:48< Jetrel> So anyways, I figured that I should at least give it the "college try", and see if I had it in me.
20081219 02:09:39< Jetrel> Soon thereafter, I found this wesnoth thing, and realized "hey, I can totally ignore having to code and focus totally on art"
20081219 02:10:05< Jetrel> So I dropped all my own projects, and focused totally on this.
20081219 02:11:57< thespaceinvader> and here we are a few years later?
20081219 02:12:07< Jetrel> :) Yep.
20081219 02:14:32< thespaceinvader> and doing an astounding job, tbh
20081219 02:14:43< Jetrel> :)
20081219 02:15:06< thespaceinvader> a free game that has the graphical polish of any number of handheld console pro games is frankly fantastic
20081219 02:16:06< Jetrel> For a simple comparison of what happens without an "art director", (whether de facto, by some single artist who's doing most of the work, or more formally, by someone giving out orders), consider this game:
20081219 02:16:11< Jetrel> www.themanaworld.org
20081219 02:17:30< thespaceinvader> i'll admit, i've seen better...
20081219 02:17:33< thespaceinvader> =P
20081219 02:18:11< thespaceinvader> though they do appear to have a working particle engine, which would be nice =D
20081219 02:18:21< Jetrel> Yeah, would be.  >_>
20081219 02:18:28< Jetrel> Also, even worse:  http://arianne.sourceforge.net/
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20081219 02:22:00< thespaceinvader> but we know, don't try to do too many things at once =P
20081219 02:22:30< Jetrel> Well, the thing with a particle engine is really a low-level issue with our code structure.
20081219 02:22:38< Jetrel> We'd need to do a major overhaul to fix it.
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20081219 02:23:04< Jetrel> And there's no point to doing it to "wesnoth-proper", we may as well make a new game.
20081219 02:24:01< Jetrel> What I *would* actually be very interested in doing, would be making a "tactical wargame/RPG hybrid", along the lines of Final Fantasy Tactics, with wesnoth's art resources.
20081219 02:24:16< Espreon> How hilarious...
20081219 02:24:26< Espreon> I happen to be playing FFTA's sequel as we speak.
20081219 02:24:28< Jetrel> Obviously we'd need to do all-new graphics for terrain, but .
20081219 02:25:57< thespaceinvader> i do like that aspect of wesnoth's gameplay, i must admit
20081219 02:26:26< thespaceinvader> a turn-based tactics-style rpg based on wesnoth would be awesome
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20081219 02:27:16< Jetrel> The second time around, I'd like to make the ground actually 3d, like in FFT, and have a much better graphics underbelly.  The downside/upside is that it would have to be built on OpenGL.
20081219 02:27:50 * thespaceinvader does not know what that means
20081219 02:28:07< Jetrel> Which part?
20081219 02:28:13< Jetrel> Have you seen FFT?
20081219 02:28:16< thespaceinvader> based on openGL
20081219 02:28:19< thespaceinvader> i know of it
20081219 02:28:29< thespaceinvader> not played it, but i have an idea of what the gameplay is like
20081219 02:28:43< thespaceinvader> but it's the openGL bit i don't know about
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20081219 02:29:21< Jetrel> OpenGL is a software library for doing 3d graphics.
20081219 02:29:52< Jetrel> But one of the major differences is that it's a hell of a lot faster for some things than our current software library, SDL.
20081219 02:30:24 * thespaceinvader quietly wikis software library
20081219 02:30:34< Jetrel> The key thing is that SDL is designed around "only drawing what has changed
20081219 02:30:46< thespaceinvader> yeah, i'm basically totally clueless on how these things work under the surface
20081219 02:30:50< Jetrel> whereas opengl is designed around redrawing everything, every frame.
20081219 02:31:02< thespaceinvader> ok
20081219 02:31:53< Jetrel> And opengl, very much unlike SDL, is tuned to take advantage of special graphics accelerator cards, which can draw things ... perhaps an order of magnitude or two faster than if you don't use the acceleration.
20081219 02:32:36< thespaceinvader> aaaah, now that would be handy
20081219 02:33:09< thespaceinvader> wesnoth doesn't use anything other than ram and CPU then, i take it?
20081219 02:33:14< thespaceinvader> or am i being clueless
20081219 02:33:18< Jetrel> Basically, yeah.
20081219 02:34:22< Jetrel> One of the things that sucks though, is that "drivers for these video cards" are one of the few areas that Open Source is doing a bad job at providing.  Not really their fault - the companies that make the cards are very competitive, and they don't want to open-source the drivers, because they don't want to reveal trade secrets.
20081219 02:34:53< Jetrel> Which means that it can sometimes be hard to run opengl games on linux.
20081219 02:35:07< thespaceinvader> ah dang
20081219 02:35:12< Jetrel> This is a non-existent problem on macs and windows.
20081219 02:35:26< Jetrel> Honestly, though - screw it.
20081219 02:35:32< thespaceinvader> that being because in those cases the graphics would be processed centrally
20081219 02:35:34< thespaceinvader> and slowly
20081219 02:35:41< thespaceinvader> yeah?
20081219 02:35:47< Jetrel> Yeah, basically.
20081219 02:36:05< Jetrel> The graphics would be done purely by the CPU - if the CPU could even do them fast enough.
20081219 02:36:51< Jetrel> Trying to do an OpenGL style of "copying graphics onto the screen" is slower for a CPU than doing it the more reserved, "copy as little as possible" style that SDL does.
20081219 02:37:02< thespaceinvader> yeah
20081219 02:37:24< Jetrel> It's only faster for opengl because opengl doesn't have the cpu do it at all - it defers it all over to the graphics card.
20081219 02:38:22< thespaceinvader> yeah
20081219 02:38:53< thespaceinvader> how much of the dev base is on an open source O/S?
20081219 02:39:38< Jetrel> A significant amount.
20081219 02:39:55< thespaceinvader> thought so
20081219 02:40:16< Jetrel> This is what FFT looks like - they have a nice battle about 1/4 of the way in:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBF1eiR1Zxc
20081219 02:40:27< thespaceinvader> i guess it would be a bugger to persuade such people to use a non-open source firendly library...
20081219 02:40:35< thespaceinvader> for the completely hypothetical project =D
20081219 02:41:07< Jetrel> Oh no - OpenGL is very OS friendly, and we all love it because it's the open alternative to microsoft's closed Direct3D.
20081219 02:41:17< Jetrel> It's just the graphics card makers that are being arses.
20081219 02:41:40< thespaceinvader> oooh right
20081219 02:42:16< Dragonking> Well, nvidia's drivers are doing well with linux :) Just my 0.02$
20081219 02:42:21< Jetrel> There's a lot we do right that FFT fucks up, badly - their interface is crap by comparison.
20081219 02:44:08< Jetrel> God I'd love to be able to script some of the things they do graphically in that FFT game, though.
20081219 02:44:33< thespaceinvader> yeah
20081219 02:45:17< Sapient> heh... that is nothing compared to the storyboard cutscenes in FFT
20081219 02:45:46< Sapient> I remember my buddies would sit around and read it in a painfully slow monotone like the masterpiece theatre guy
20081219 02:46:31< Dragonking> Jetrel: Really nice video. :)
20081219 02:49:19< thespaceinvader> agreed on that count
20081219 02:49:47< thespaceinvader> are the characters sprites or 3d?  I can't tell - the resolution's not good enough on youtube
20081219 02:49:56< Jetrel> They're sprites.
20081219 02:49:59< Jetrel> I have to go.
20081219 02:51:07< thespaceinvader> okie doke
20081219 02:51:12< thespaceinvader> me too, actualy
20081219 02:51:28< thespaceinvader> night all
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20081219 02:52:09< Dragonking> night everyone
20081219 02:52:21< Espreon> Meh... good bye.
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20081219 03:05:19< Sapient> huh... he's controlling the enemies. looks like a cheat
20081219 03:06:09< voris> That video?
20081219 03:06:13< Sapient> yeah
20081219 03:06:45< Sapient> look at the battle at 12:32
20081219 03:06:54< voris> The description says he is.
20081219 03:07:28< Sapient> in the commentary? I don't see that
20081219 03:07:38< voris> "There is a mistake in this video though...during one of the battle scenes you'll notice I'm using Cloud before I should even have him. I used a hack which allows me to do that...and I didn't realize that mistake until after I completed the video and it's too late to go back and do that battle again. So just ignore that portion and pretend he's not there yet. ;) "
20081219 03:08:14< Sapient> I mean, controlling the enemies. how lame is that
20081219 03:08:29< voris> Totally.
20081219 03:11:35< Sapient> and that line at the end... "butter to his blazing buster sword?" totally gay
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20081219 03:35:57< voris> heh
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20081219 05:17:09 * Jetrel is back
20081219 05:28:51< Sapient> not many ppl awake ;)
20081219 05:45:20< Jetrel> heh
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20081219 07:19:14< zookeeper> yo jetrel
20081219 07:19:21< Jetrel> hey
20081219 07:22:35< Jetrel> zookeeper:  I was going to ask you, or someone about how to "dynamically recolor" unit skin colors.  I wanted to try that with the trolls, since they have a nice limited palette.
20081219 07:23:10< Jetrel> The idea here is to have a unit be one of some 2-6 different hues, chosen randomly at hiring, and permanent for the unit's lifetime.
20081219 07:24:40< zookeeper> well, i could write a recruit event for that, but it'd only affect recruited, not WML-spawned units. but i can do that so you can play around with that until someone implements proper code support for doing it.
20081219 07:24:55< Jetrel> Ah, neat.
20081219 07:25:18< Jetrel> Yeah - I imagine if I put it in and start using, a coder will want to make it "work properly across the board".
20081219 07:25:51< Jetrel> whereas if I just talk about it over and over again, nothing of that sort will get done.
20081219 07:26:07< zookeeper> btw, i committed my new rocklobber projectile anim, maybe you want to do that bigger stone image for that
20081219 07:26:18< Jetrel> OH, right.  Right...
20081219 07:26:41< Jetrel> had in fact totally forgotten.
20081219 07:27:58< zookeeper> i'll try to write that event right now, gimme a moment..
20081219 07:31:12< Jetrel> right... and I've actually gotten you a new rock, just now.
20081219 07:31:22< Jetrel> Though I'd better compare it to the old one really quick.
20081219 07:33:35< Jetrel> To ask a dumb question, I just want to be sure, because I'm doing a blind commit here:
20081219 07:33:45< Jetrel> zookeeper: data/core/images/projectiles/stone.png  ?
20081219 07:34:51< zookeeper> yeah that's the little stone used for normal slings etc
20081219 07:34:57< Jetrel> although, we may have a problem with that ... that's shared ... yeah.
20081219 07:35:08< Jetrel> Do you want me to just create stone-large.png?
20081219 07:35:12< zookeeper> yess
20081219 07:37:01< zookeeper> btw looks like we got a new footpad portrait, can i commit? http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=326798#p326798
20081219 07:37:44< Jetrel> lolwut?
20081219 07:38:03< Jetrel> "i cant draw faces tat well, so i normally give them nice helmet, which footpads dont own zz"
20081219 07:38:24< Jetrel> " if i had scanner, i might can draw better then mouse,"
20081219 07:39:12< zookeeper> :]
20081219 07:39:38< Jetrel> Is this a joke?
20081219 07:39:48< Jetrel> :D  I mean, seriously?
20081219 07:40:47 * zookeeper doubts it
20081219 07:47:12< zookeeper> do you have a list of the troll skin colours?
20081219 07:47:24< Jetrel> uhm, the RGB values?
20081219 07:47:29< zookeeper> yeah
20081219 07:47:35< Jetrel> I can get you one - I have troll open in PS right now.
20081219 07:48:03< Jetrel> zookeeper: can you give me an example to crib for the formatting?
20081219 07:48:09< zookeeper> nah, i'll just test on the thief instead since i have those..
20081219 07:48:42< zookeeper> just a sec
20081219 07:50:19< zookeeper> yay, works
20081219 07:51:17< zookeeper> http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m2a6bac7c
20081219 07:51:34< zookeeper> that should be pretty self-explanatory
20081219 07:51:49< Jetrel> Kinda.
20081219 07:51:51< zookeeper> you can put all that in a [unit_type] for instance
20081219 07:52:10< Jetrel> I'm gonna test it out in about 10min, meanwhile I'm going to commit those stones.
20081219 07:52:14< zookeeper> cool
20081219 07:54:19< Jetrel> fucking stupid PS3.
20081219 07:54:31< Jetrel> Photoshop has code to save a PNG image compactly.
20081219 07:54:59< Jetrel> This doesn't even take a significant overhead of time or anything.
20081219 07:55:16< Jetrel> But this is only invoked by going to the "save for web" option.
20081219 07:55:53< Jetrel> If you do a regular save, it invokes the shitty, ginormous file size bad png support that they first hacked in there probably 8 years ago.
20081219 07:56:04< Jetrel> Why is this still in there!?
20081219 07:56:40< zookeeper> no big clients have complained
20081219 07:57:02< Jetrel> heh
20081219 07:57:42< Jetrel> alt:  richard hasn't been over there to shorten their shoe sizes until they fix it.
20081219 07:58:49< CIA-8> jetryl * r31548 /trunk/data/core/images/projectiles/ (stone-large.png stone.png): New stone projectile graphics.
20081219 08:04:14< zookeeper> ah, that's good
20081219 08:04:51< Jetrel> hopefully that's about the right size.
20081219 08:05:19< Jetrel> I'm going to get on that WML in about 10min here - need to grab a bit to eat quick, first.
20081219 08:06:00< CIA-8> zookeeper * r31549 /trunk/data/core/units/trolls/Rocklobber.cfg: Made the rocklobber's attack use the new bigger stone projectile.
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20081219 08:55:39< zookeeper> oh, jetrel, one other thing: don't you think it'd be about time to get some a bit flashier effect to replace that ancient scroll-in of the title screen wesnoth logo?
20081219 08:56:11 * Jetrel reminds himself of what we're talking about.
20081219 08:57:43< Jetrel> zookeeper:  I'm confused about what you're talking about.
20081219 08:57:58< Jetrel> I don't see any effect being applied to it.
20081219 08:58:49< zookeeper> when you enter the title screen, the logo scrolls in, after which the menus appear
20081219 08:58:57< zookeeper> i'm sure you've seen it many times :p
20081219 08:59:13< zookeeper> i don't know what the proper term is, nor do i care
20081219 08:59:23< Jetrel> Uhm, in 1.5.6, it's not doing that for me.
20081219 08:59:28< Jetrel> It just instantly appears.
20081219 08:59:51< zookeeper> i don't believe you :]
20081219 09:00:09< loonycyborg> Jetrel: Maybe your pc is too fast? :)
20081219 09:00:38< loonycyborg> It definitely scrolls for me..
20081219 09:01:06< Jetrel> I kinda remember it doing that before - is it timed based on something loading in the background?
20081219 09:01:18< zookeeper> no
20081219 09:02:21< Jetrel> Is it some dumbly written piece of code that increments based on frame rate?
20081219 09:02:33 * zookeeper shrugs
20081219 09:02:47< Jetrel> Er, sorry, increments a flat amount per each frame, regardless of how fast the frames cycle?
20081219 09:03:06< zookeeper> probably, titlescreen.cpp
20081219 09:04:35< zookeeper> aaanyways, some kind of a flashier effect would IMO be good. a scroll/fade in like that is pretty...uh, not so cool-looking.
20081219 09:05:02< Jetrel> Personally, and I'm going to be slightly conservative here - how about *nothing*?
20081219 09:05:03< zookeeper> it'd be nice if one could use animation WML for doing it, but i doubt boucman would implement that :P
20081219 09:05:47< Jetrel> The only thing I wouldn't mind seeing on the front screen would be some sort of "really slow ken burns" effect going between the different backgrounds.
20081219 09:05:55< zookeeper> well, i guess nothing might be better than the current one. i'm not sure.
20081219 09:06:24< Jetrel> The gaping sore in the game that I want to see _removed_ is the current scrolling credits crap.
20081219 09:06:49< Jetrel> Go to the freaking help page instead.
20081219 09:07:03< zookeeper> hmh?
20081219 09:07:16< Jetrel> Or if the campaign is over, use the story-scene api instead to give it an "ending".
20081219 09:07:18< Sirp> what's wrong with the scrolling credits?
20081219 09:07:28< Sirp> isn't that what every game does? have scrolling credits?
20081219 09:07:32< Jetrel> They look really cheap.
20081219 09:07:38< Jetrel> And no, most games don't do that.
20081219 09:07:41< zookeeper> well, yeah, they could look better, but...what?
20081219 09:07:51< zookeeper> which game doesn't? O.o
20081219 09:08:00< Jetrel> Marathon.  Myth.
20081219 09:08:26< Jetrel> Shit, I don't even know if halo had them.
20081219 09:08:42< zookeeper> i've never played those, and i think 99% of all the ones i have do :)
20081219 09:08:51< zookeeper> hmm, i think halo did
20081219 09:09:01< Jetrel> The scrolling credits aren't even readable, and they blit with seams in the text because of how it's implemented, IIRC.
20081219 09:09:23< Sirp> so are you saying that the way we do scrolling credits is poor, or that doing scrolling credits is always a bad idea?
20081219 09:09:24< Jetrel> It just looks like an unmaintained piece of crap.
20081219 09:09:28< zookeeper> yeah the implementation and looks could surely be improved a lot.
20081219 09:09:54< Jetrel> And frankly, I don't like scrolling credits in general, because they're a very bad way to read.
20081219 09:10:28< Jetrel> It's like a book that automatically flips the page every 10 seconds, even if you're not done reading it.
20081219 09:11:22< Sirp> well, I suppose there could be a way to adjust the scrolling speed or something....
20081219 09:11:37< zookeeper> then it takes 30 minutes to scroll through them all
20081219 09:12:14< zookeeper> unless you meant user-adjustable
20081219 09:12:18< Jetrel> Sirp:  the ONLY reason games have ever done scrolling credits is because they want to be like movies.  It's the -only- reason.  It's a bad, bad design.
20081219 09:12:36< Jetrel> And the only reason movies did it, is because it's the only way they could do it.
20081219 09:14:25< Jetrel> Movies basically have only 2 options - still text on a screen that replaces with more text after a time interval, and scrolling.
20081219 09:14:36< Sirp> Jetrel: I agree with that, however I think there's something to be said for having a 'cinematic' feel.
20081219 09:15:03< zookeeper> i always get a warm fuzzy feeling after completing a game and seeing the credits come up :|
20081219 09:15:32< Jetrel> Sirp:  oh there is.  but in our case it's a bad idea, because we're aping it so badly.
20081219 09:15:41< zookeeper> it's like...the point after which you can totally relax, after all the ending cinematics and whatnot
20081219 09:16:11< Jetrel> And ultimately, if I was going to do "cinematic credits", I'd do still credits that fade and replace, not the scrolling variety.
20081219 09:16:44< Jetrel> But our problem is that we're aping it, because we're forgetting what made the other videogame's credit sequences work.
20081219 09:17:04< Jetrel> It was that they had -some other major cinematic element to watch besides the text-.
20081219 09:17:32< Jetrel> They day we can play some sort of "video", of any kind, is the day we can do this and not have it suck.
20081219 09:17:57< Jetrel> Video includes "machinima" as a strong candidate.
20081219 09:18:53< Jetrel> Like, if you take Legend of zelda for the SNES, they have a big credits roll.
20081219 09:19:37< Jetrel> During this big credit roll, you see the game camera panning around to all the little people who got saved when the world was magically restored, and each one of them waves at the camera.
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20081219 09:20:01< mordante> morning
20081219 09:20:29< Jetrel> What's bad about ours is that it's half-assed.  It's looks like the credit roll on some crappy shareware game some kid wrote in high school.
20081219 09:20:44< Jetrel> And I think we should either do it right, or don't do it at all.
20081219 09:22:18< Jetrel> Remember your oft-quoted text from Antoine de Saint-Exupery.  "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but nothing left to take away."
20081219 09:24:30< Jetrel> Ours currently looks like a crappy afterthought.  Anyways, I should stop harping on this, and get on that troll color WML.
20081219 09:29:13< Jetrel> Incidentally, I should mention that frogatto is much better prepared, in it's current state, to do a decent credits roll.  You could practically just do it by replacing the bottom "stats" bar with a text box, and just running a replay above it.
20081219 09:29:55< Jetrel> Sirp: That would look much better that just a nearly blank screen with text sliding down it.
20081219 09:31:56< Sirp> Jetrel: I don't disagree that our credits screen could be made to look much nicer.
20081219 09:33:52< Jetrel> Probably the simplest thing to do would be to simply fix what's already there - right now the text doesn't even scroll at a constant rate - it scrolls more slowly on more text-intensive chunks.
20081219 09:34:07< Sirp> Jetrel: blame SDL. :)
20081219 09:34:20< Jetrel> That, and halve the text size.  Make the section headers bold, et cetera.
20081219 09:34:28< Jetrel> Sirp:  I do. :)
20081219 09:34:49< Sirp> for that reason anything in Frogatto will be much more awesome in that regard.
20081219 09:37:23< Jetrel> phoo.  ~20 minutes to sleepy-time.
20081219 09:37:27< Ivanovic> moin
20081219 09:37:38< mordante> hi Ivanovic 
20081219 09:37:43< Jetrel> heya
20081219 09:37:46< Ivanovic> hi Sirp, nice to se you around
20081219 09:38:02< Jetrel> mordante: oh, hey - where should I commit new "big format" portraits?
20081219 09:38:14< Ivanovic> Sirp: has the SoC money already arrived, or do you not know since you ain't at home at the moment?
20081219 09:38:15< mordante> Ivanovic I really hope to have time to make the last changes to the new drawing engine today or tomorrow and have it in the release
20081219 09:38:25< Ivanovic> mordante: *great*
20081219 09:38:46< mordante> Jetrel I just read the question in the log ;-)
20081219 09:39:03 * Ivanovic hopes to be able to wake up withhin the next hour or so
20081219 09:40:04< Sirp> Ivanovic: I don't know. Will find out when I return.
20081219 09:40:19< mordante> Jetrel it involves adding the image and change, for good reasons not yet documented, wml, so it might be easier if I add them 
20081219 09:40:43< mordante> I also don't have a final place for them
20081219 09:40:47< Jetrel> mkay.
20081219 09:41:18< mordante> Once my engine changes are done, I can ask Kitty whether scaling down from 400x400 gives acceptable results
20081219 09:41:55< mordante> you have some images that need to be added?
20081219 09:44:17< Jetrel> yeah, one sec.
20081219 09:45:47< zookeeper> Jetrel, so, any luck with the trolls?
20081219 09:46:02< Jetrel> I seem to understand most everything.
20081219 09:46:18< Jetrel> One issue though - I'd like to put these in a new WML file
20081219 09:46:54< Jetrel> Maybe that's a bridge to cross later, but we'll basically be having macros like this for every race.
20081219 09:48:11< Jetrel> mordante:  the name of the author (possibly for creating the containing directory) is "Emilien Rotival"  We've done that thus far, and I find it to be a nice way of handling that metadata - I'm not dearly attached to it, though.
20081219 09:48:34< Jetrel> mordante: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/download/file.php?id=26135&t=1
20081219 09:48:45< Jetrel> mordante: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/download/file.php?id=26134&t=1
20081219 09:49:12< Jetrel> mordante: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/download/file.php?id=26115&t=1
20081219 09:49:30< mordante> I haven't seen the first image before :-( but I remember the farmer
20081219 09:49:30< zookeeper> Jetrel, well, whenever you have the palettes and stuff worked out, i can try to find a good way to organize the stuff and commit it
20081219 09:50:11< Jetrel> zookeeper: alright - I'm going to apply it to the whelp, first, and then commit that?
20081219 09:50:27< mordante> did he also post 205x205 images with a black background?
20081219 09:50:33< zookeeper> jetrel, or just pastebin me what you have and i'll macroify it and commit?
20081219 09:50:41< Jetrel> mordante: the first image is fairly new.  And no, he didn't, he just gave us the large one.
20081219 09:50:51< Jetrel> sp/ones
20081219 09:51:02< mordante> and I assume he's not yet in the credits yet 
20081219 09:51:30< Jetrel> Quite right.
20081219 09:51:43< mordante> oke I'll look at it later today
20081219 09:51:50< Jetrel> mordante:  please do take the liberty of adding him in.
20081219 09:52:12< Jetrel> Actually, I've got a problem - I no longer know how to add people to the credits, and thus I haven't done it in months. :(
20081219 09:52:18< Jetrel> How are we doing it these days?
20081219 09:52:24< mordante> of course I'll do that as well
20081219 09:52:26< zookeeper> just adding to about.cfg
20081219 09:52:41< Jetrel> Does the wiki page get copied from that?
20081219 09:52:54< zookeeper> someone runs the copy script once in a while i guess
20081219 09:52:54< Ivanovic> yes, the wiki page is created from this file
20081219 09:53:02< Jetrel> Because when I stopped knowing was when we unified all this.
20081219 09:53:06< Ivanovic> that is: i exectue a script every now and then and copy stuff over
20081219 09:53:16< Jetrel> I knew we'd changed it, but I hadn't known what we changed it to.
20081219 09:53:34< Ivanovic> the new way: "the game is the source of stuff"
20081219 09:53:37< Ivanovic> ;)
20081219 09:57:12< Jetrel> Ivanovic:  I want to thank those responsible for continuing my tradition of having all that additional data about what people actually did.  I personally find that very important.
20081219 09:57:28< Ivanovic> yes, it is really great to have
20081219 09:57:41< zookeeper> pff. i've spent who knows how long on simply changing how the knight prisoners work in mal-ravanal's capital...it's not really at all complicated, but somehow so hard to get right.
20081219 09:58:16< mordante> Jetrel and maybe we can look at the credits after 1.6 see what option we need
20081219 09:58:17< Jetrel> I always hate it when I read credits, and the people in the credits are just empty, meaningless names.
20081219 09:59:18< mordante> uhm yes, but I have that with movies as well
20081219 09:59:27< zookeeper> for anyone who cares, i'm making them all be in cages between the player and the death knight with a revenant next to them as a guard...so you can pick which ones to save, and actually have a good idea that you can do that, instead of having to kill or be killed to get the first hint of that
20081219 09:59:34< Jetrel> mordante:  Yeah, me too.
20081219 10:00:29< Jetrel> Mordante: simple statement regarding that;  we either need some major new cinematic element to it, or we should scrap it in favor of both "going to the help page" for the mainscreen button, or "using the story-screen api" for campaign endings.
20081219 10:00:49< Rhonda> In the manual there is inconsistent with respect to "Battle for Wesnoth" and "Battle For Wesnoth" (small/capital F in For)
20081219 10:00:58< Jetrel> And to be honest, I'd suggest generalizing it's capabilities as part of the story-screen api _anyways_.
20081219 10:01:18< Rhonda> Not sure which one is the "official" writing and which should be used. They are both part of float text
20081219 10:01:30< Jetrel> Rhonda:  in terms of the official fancylad english rules, the F should probably be lowercase.
20081219 10:01:46 * Ivanovic votes for a small 'f' in 'for'
20081219 10:01:51< Rhonda> Jetrel: I'm fine with that. I though can't "fix" it myself. :)
20081219 10:02:08< Jetrel> words like "for, of, to, in, at" all get lowercased in title case.
20081219 10:02:09 * Rhonda also thinks that the small f is more common, in fact I only noticed the capital F in this new string.
20081219 10:02:37< Rhonda> Jetrel: Well, isn't everything capitalized in headlines? Not that it matters here, but in general.
20081219 10:03:04< Jetrel> Rhonda:  no, this is something called "title case" - it's different from headline case.
20081219 10:03:09< mordante> Jetrel well only the people in the credits themselves probably like it ;-)
20081219 10:03:42< mordante> the logo uses a small f
20081219 10:04:35< Rhonda> Then I suggest to lowercase it in the manual. :)
20081219 10:05:11 * mordante too
20081219 10:05:28 * Jetrel agrees
20081219 10:05:39< Jetrel> Rhonda:  the rules are pretty loose:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_Case#Headings_and_publication_titles
20081219 10:06:24< Rhonda> Jetrel: I'm not too sure if I want to dig too deep into English orthography, but thanks. :)
20081219 10:06:55< Rhonda> On the other hand, it's for sure an interesting topic and I alway try to improve my writing style   *hmmm*
20081219 10:07:00< Jetrel> Rhonda: what a tangled god-damn mess we weave?
20081219 10:07:15< Rhonda> wuz?
20081219 10:07:17< Jetrel> English:  it grows like a cancerous blob. :[
20081219 10:07:46< Rhonda> haha. You don't know German, do you. :P
20081219 10:07:55< Jetrel> Yet.
20081219 10:08:41 * Jetrel would like to eventually learn a few european languages, since I'd have people here to actually use them with - a chance most people never get.
20081219 10:08:53< Rhonda> Don't plan on learning it within the next few years. The language hasn't really recovered from the last spelling reform.
20081219 10:09:18< Jetrel> Rhonda:  wait, what?
20081219 10:09:24< Jetrel> spelling reform?
20081219 10:09:27< Rhonda> Yes.
20081219 10:09:42< mordante> Rhonda doesn't matter by the time it has recovered a new one will kick in :-P
20081219 10:09:47< Jetrel> What is this - merrie old england?
20081219 10:10:01< Rhonda> It was a big mess, people argued not only for or against it but even in every other thinkable direction, too ...
20081219 10:10:10< zookeeper> learn finnish, that's surely a splendid investment of your time.
20081219 10:10:29< Jetrel> That's the thing about english - no one has enough authority to do that to the language anymore, even if it was a good idea.
20081219 10:10:45 * mordante wonders whether Rhonda speaks of the German or Dutch spelling reform :-P
20081219 10:11:23< Jetrel> zookeeper: considering as many finns as I know ... who knows?
20081219 10:11:29< Sirp> who organizes these "language reforms"? I mean in English speaking countries we just let current practice dictate things.
20081219 10:11:44< Rhonda> Dutch has spelling? I thought it was just a mumbled Germlish?
20081219 10:11:55< Jetrel> Sirp:  probably bodies like what Oxford used to do back in the day.
20081219 10:12:57< mordante> Rhonda it is we now only need to mumble it differently ;-)
20081219 10:13:02< Jetrel> The thing with english is like the United states with it's imperial measurement system - that kind of stubbornness, except on a larger scale.
20081219 10:13:07< Rhonda> Sirp: I think Duden and other dictionary companies were disappointed by their sellings so they needed a change. Or such. :P
20081219 10:13:59< Jetrel> Because I can just imagine them trying to tell some homeboy from St. Louis to change how he spells things.  Be so freaking funny.
20081219 10:14:35< Rhonda> No, for real, there were some really awkward spelling rules especially with respect to s, ss and ß (szlig). And because that wasn't really much they thought about some other stuff they might wanted to have changed and fumbled seriously with.
20081219 10:16:02< Jetrel> English does have some _serious_ cruft in it though.  In some ways I really envy languages like korean or hungarian, for having nice cleanness to them.
20081219 10:16:25< mordante> the next reform they _can_ makes things simpler by using the capital ß instead of SS or SZ, but that's probably too optimistic ;-)
20081219 10:17:36< Rhonda> What capital ß? There is none.
20081219 10:18:01< mordante> there is :-P
20081219 10:19:26< mordante> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gro%C3%9Fes_%C3%9F
20081219 10:20:23< Jetrel> zookeeper: when writing these color ranges, does the WML parser ignore spaces?
20081219 10:20:54< Jetrel> I just realized it might be a nice way to separate triads of RGB values if it doesn't matter if we slip a space in here or there
20081219 10:20:58< Sirp> are there any good eras or campaigns in 'realistic' settings?
20081219 10:21:20< Sirp> I want to show Wesnoth to my 75 year old uncle who isn't into these "fantasy" settings. :)
20081219 10:21:37< zookeeper> Jetrel, yeah, probably it does
20081219 10:21:56< Jetrel> Sirp: You're boned.  We put magic in everything because we like the flashy lights. :[]
20081219 10:22:07< zookeeper> yeah, i don't think there is any.
20081219 10:22:40< zookeeper> remove mages and have loyalists vs loyalists MP ;)
20081219 10:22:48< Sirp> hmmmm yeah that's what I was thinking. :)
20081219 10:22:50< Jetrel> Sirp:  I'm sorry. :(  We really have tried to be relatively conservative here, though.
20081219 10:23:24< Jetrel> Sirp: that is one big reason I switched the mages to looking like monks/friars, though.  Taste.
20081219 10:24:26< Jetrel> zookeeper:  hehehe - I almost started typing down values in LAB space
20081219 10:25:06< Jetrel> I've been using that lately, because it's well-tuned in some ways to how humans perceive color, and I'm trying to train myself.
20081219 10:25:41< Jetrel> But for a moment I was like "-8?  That's unpossible!"
20081219 10:26:01< Sirp> hmmm does A Tale of Two Brothers really use much magic early on?
20081219 10:26:28< Rhonda> mordante: U+1E9E <nicht zugewiesen>
20081219 10:26:41< Rhonda> mordante: Either wikipedia is wrong here, or the unicode standard ...
20081219 10:26:52< zookeeper> LAB?
20081219 10:27:20< Jetrel> Yeah.
20081219 10:27:44< Jetrel> Luminosity and two arbitrary variables representing the two-dimensional color space.
20081219 10:27:52< zookeeper> Sirp, well, the story involves your mage brother and the first scenario defending your village from an evil necromancer :p
20081219 10:27:58< zookeeper> right
20081219 10:28:01< Jetrel> Not strictly arbitrary, but they named them as such, unfortunately.
20081219 10:28:33< Ivanovic> Sirp: use liberty
20081219 10:28:42< Jetrel> really, the two are "the teal to magenta axis", and the "cyan to yellow axis"
20081219 10:28:46< Ivanovic> that one is probably the most "not so magic" campaign
20081219 10:28:50< Ivanovic> okay, there orks appear
20081219 10:28:54< zookeeper> liberty has orcs and goblins and saurians and whatnot, but not that much magic.
20081219 10:28:56< Sirp> Ivanovic: ahhh okay
20081219 10:28:58< Ivanovic> but beside this, it is rather relaxed
20081219 10:29:04< zookeeper> except after a couple of scenarios
20081219 10:29:07< Sirp> I think it's probably mostly okay as long as the *enemies* are the somewhat magical ones.
20081219 10:29:11< Ivanovic> zookeeper: hey, when showing it, you just show the first three or such scenarios
20081219 10:29:17< zookeeper> yep
20081219 10:29:27< Ivanovic> or you could use the sourthguard, this one could work, too
20081219 10:29:52< Jetrel> Sirp:  we need a campaign about half-vampire cyborgs for just such an occasion as this. :D
20081219 10:30:10< zookeeper> liberty is probably features the least magic from all the campaigns
20081219 10:30:43< mordante> Rhonda it's quite new http://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode5.1.0/#Notable_Changes "Capital Sharp S for German"
20081219 10:37:09< Jetrel> zookeeper:  WML works like a charm, as is to be expected from you. :)
20081219 10:37:21< Sirp> ahh The South Guard looks perfect for my purposes.
20081219 10:37:55< Jetrel> Sirp: the south guard is one of the best campaigns I've played, recently.
20081219 10:38:12< Jetrel> I need to play more though, honestly.
20081219 10:38:46< loonycyborg> Sirp: The South Guard ends with an epic battle vs elven necromancer :)
20081219 10:38:59 * Ivanovic just got himseld an xbox360 and is now playing some other games
20081219 10:39:03< Ivanovic> (like gta4)
20081219 10:39:04< Jetrel> zookeeper:  I'm out for the night very soon - it'll be a day or so to pick good color variants.
20081219 10:39:05< zookeeper> Jetrel, cool
20081219 10:39:06< Ivanovic> yes, shame on me...
20081219 10:39:21< zookeeper> Jetrel, you played TSG how recently?
20081219 10:39:24< Ivanovic> loonycyborg: correct, it *ends* with this
20081219 10:39:34< Ivanovic> so no way when just showing the game for an hour to notice this
20081219 10:39:35< Jetrel> zookeeper: like a year and a quarter ago
20081219 10:39:49< zookeeper> Jetrel, ah, ok. i've fiddled with the bandit branch since then.
20081219 10:40:07< Sirp> Ivanovic: admittedly there are some very nice games on XBox360
20081219 10:40:12< zookeeper> it should be like...playable now, instead of the insanely hard boringness that it was before, i think
20081219 10:40:40< Jetrel> Plus, TSG seems to be one of the only campaigns that actually treats "the undead" as being you know - frightening and unusual.
20081219 10:41:30< zookeeper> well i always wonder why are they so freaked out by them since as we all know, undead are usually around every corner in wesnoth ;)
20081219 10:41:48< Jetrel> Ivanovic:  I have to admit, I never pegged you as the GTA type, but that's probably because the only people whom I've known to play it are drunken frat boys. ;)
20081219 10:41:57< zookeeper> so the appropriate response would be "oh, dang, undead. let's train some HI and mages"
20081219 10:42:19< Jetrel> zookeeper:  yeah, that's one of the problems that could really stand to be fixed.
20081219 10:42:41< zookeeper> maybe
20081219 10:42:46< Jetrel> We need a lot more campaigns with loyalist bad guys.
20081219 10:43:00< zookeeper> we need a lot more campaigns with drakes :x
20081219 10:43:13< Jetrel> Oh yeah.
20081219 10:45:04< loonycyborg> We need a lot more campaigns were you have fire dragon as leader and recruit bats :D
20081219 10:46:37< CIA-8> zookeeper * r31550 /trunk/data/campaigns/Eastern_Invasion/ (4 files in 3 dirs): Reworked how the prisoner knights work: now they're placed on the map in cages with guards next to them, and the player must kill the guard to release the prisoner.
20081219 10:46:38< zookeeper> "Adventures of Khrakhras"
20081219 10:46:48< Ivanovic> Sirp: yeah, there are some nice RPGs on the 360 by now
20081219 10:46:54< Ivanovic> that is the main reason i got me one
20081219 10:47:29< Ivanovic> and yeah, creating havoc in some fake town can really be fun, too
20081219 10:47:47< Ivanovic> Jetrel: i know several "not so drunken" people playing gta
20081219 10:47:49< Ivanovic> ;)
20081219 10:47:51< Sirp> Ivanovic: imo Civilization Revolution is actually pretty well done.
20081219 10:48:20< Sirp> Ivanovic: as for RPG's, there's Mass Effect which is great, Lost Odyssey and Eternal Sonata which seem decent. If you come across any other really good ones, let me know. :)
20081219 10:48:39< Ivanovic> i got lost odyssey lying over ehre as well as blue dragon
20081219 10:48:52< Ivanovic> and i will probably get me kameo (okay, more action adventure)
20081219 10:48:57< Jetrel> Ivanovic:  the only reason I mention this is because my first roommate played GTA about .. 5-6 hours every day.  And he puked on me the first day I met him.
20081219 10:49:04< Ivanovic> i have heard many bad comments about mass effect
20081219 10:49:15< Sirp> Ivanovic: really? Depends on your style, but I think it's *great*.
20081219 10:49:22< Sirp> but then I like all Bioware RPG's
20081219 10:49:25< Ivanovic> Jetrel: okay, i don't play 5 to 6h gta every day...
20081219 10:49:32< Sirp> except Jade Empire, which was a little so-so
20081219 10:49:46< Ivanovic> and yeah, i am looking forward to fable 2, too
20081219 10:49:53< Ivanovic> (i liked fable 1)
20081219 10:50:15< Ivanovic> that is: for this i will wait a while longer for prices to drop and me to play through some of the game i already got
20081219 10:50:19< Jetrel> Ivanovic:  it was amazing how it held his attention, but then I shouldn't make fun of people for playing videogames into the ground - I'm certainly guilty of it with Warcraft IIIx.
20081219 10:50:31< Ivanovic> :)
20081219 10:50:40< Ivanovic> okay, it's tea time for me
20081219 10:50:41< Ivanovic> ;)
20081219 10:50:52 * loonycyborg really lost interest in gaming in recent years
20081219 10:51:30< loonycyborg> In favor of messing with C++ and maintaining my Gentoo system :)
20081219 10:51:39< Ivanovic> loonycyborg: yes, i have played a *lot* less over the last two years than before
20081219 10:51:48< Ivanovic> too busy with uni stuff, messing around with things, you know
20081219 10:52:03 * mordante also messes more with C++ as playing games
20081219 10:53:05< Ivanovic> and currently i am basically drowning in work due to the project group i got to work on for uni
20081219 10:53:11< zookeeper> i'd play a lot more if i actually had games...as it is, my computer can't run new games anymore, i don't really fancy spending much money on games and i don't want to torrent too much stuff either.
20081219 10:53:15< Ivanovic> that is: we got 12 people in our group
20081219 10:53:20< Ivanovic> got to do the job in c++
20081219 10:53:34< Ivanovic> and only about 4 of us are actually able to really code...
20081219 10:53:45< zookeeper> so i just play wesnoth and occasionally replay old games like deus ex for the tenth time ;)
20081219 10:53:47< Sirp> Ivanovic: 12 people? Huh?
20081219 10:54:13< Ivanovic> Sirp: yeah, some uni thing, in the project group you work on some (practical) project
20081219 10:54:23< Ivanovic> somehow related to current stuff (science and such)
20081219 10:54:32< Sirp> Ivanovic: I've just never had such a huge group. So hard to co-ordinate
20081219 10:54:39< Ivanovic> in the group there are 8 to 12 students who got to work on the project
20081219 10:54:45< Sirp> I always had groups of 3-4 people, and then I usually did all the coding and delegated all other work to others.
20081219 10:55:07< Ivanovic> our project, for one year, is to get dedicated multimdeia networks working on those neat internet tablets by nokia
20081219 10:55:13< Ivanovic> (got some n810 for this job)
20081219 10:55:21< Jetrel> WHAT:  http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/download/file.php?avatar=109992_1229252497.png
20081219 10:55:39< Ivanovic> dedicated as in "no extra infrastructure like servers available"
20081219 10:55:50< Sirp> Jetrel: huh? :)
20081219 10:55:57< Ivanovic> so we got to create adhoc networks where you find each other and stuff like this
20081219 10:56:04< Jetrel> frankenstein
20081219 10:56:36< Ivanovic> beside this there is some thought of community behind it, as in you got a buddy list, can chat with each other and do voice/video chat, too
20081219 10:56:51< zookeeper> Jetrel, what's WHAT about that?
20081219 10:57:09< Jetrel> dude look at it.
20081219 10:57:25< Jetrel> It's the craziest hodgepodge I've seen in weeks
20081219 10:57:35< Ivanovic> and, of course, since there are no wlan accesspoints available, we got to route traffic trhough other devices to reach ones further away, basically building upon a P2P framework (gnunet in our case)
20081219 10:57:45< Jetrel> I guess it just looks funny to me.
20081219 10:57:53< zookeeper> Jetrel, you don't check out newbie art threads a lot, do you :P?
20081219 10:57:56< Jetrel> Mostly the lack of a lower torso.
20081219 10:58:00< Sirp> Ivanovic: that sounds somewhat more sophisticated and involved than most of my college projects.
20081219 10:58:06< Jetrel> zookeeper:  I guess not.
20081219 10:58:08< Sirp> at my college most students would just die if they got a project like that.
20081219 10:58:13< Ivanovic> Sirp: yeah, those projects are rather big ones
20081219 10:58:16< Sirp> and with 12 people, I'm sure that just 2-3 people will do the actual work.
20081219 10:58:21< zookeeper> to me that doesn't really look like the worst i've seen in...well, even today, i guess ;)
20081219 10:58:22< Ivanovic> that is: we really got one year to work on it
20081219 10:58:35< Ivanovic> in our group we got 4 people being able to really code, me being one of them
20081219 10:58:37< Sirp> (but this is the way it works in industry too of course. :)
20081219 10:59:00< Ivanovic> okay, some of the others know "basic coding" but not too much
20081219 10:59:10< Ivanovic> and some others, lets better not talk about those
20081219 10:59:37< Ivanovic> they are there to provide "concepts" for the stuff we implement (and when implementing things we just ditch their concepts since there is no way for them to work)
20081219 10:59:45< Rhonda> omfg, mordante! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahjong#Mahjong_in_Unicode
20081219 10:59:47< Ivanovic> oh, and of course we got them to write the docu
20081219 11:00:27< Rhonda> doublelol, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominoes#Dominoes_in_Unicode
20081219 11:01:17< Ivanovic> this way we at least got some decent doxygen comments in some parts of our code
20081219 11:01:18< Ivanovic> ^^
20081219 11:03:58< mordante> Rhonda they are indeed funny, had a look at unicode a while ago and it really has a lot of weird stuff
20081219 11:34:07< Jetrel> zookeeper: the spaces worked, just FYI.  Useful thing to remember - it makes these lists of RGB values one hell of a lot easier to visually parse.
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20081219 11:34:12 * Jetrel -> bed
20081219 11:34:20< mordante> night Jetrel 
20081219 11:46:45< Rhonda> In the manpage I suggest to add quotes around "My Documents\My Games" - otherwise the spacing might add to confusion.
20081219 11:48:34 * loonycyborg doesn't even know whether quotes should be backslashed in man sources..
20081219 11:48:58< Rhonda> They aren't special characters.
20081219 11:54:52< CIA-8> loonycyborg * r31551 /trunk/doc/man/wesnoth.6: Added quotes around "My Documents\My Games" in the man page to prevent possible ambiguity.
20081219 11:55:13 * loonycyborg hopes that this doesn't violate the string freeze :)
20081219 11:55:46 * mordante follows loonycyborg's good example ;-)
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20081219 11:56:10< mordante> Rhonda where in the Battle _F_or Wesnoth located?
20081219 11:56:23< Rhonda> manual
20081219 11:59:43< CIA-8> mordante * r31552 /trunk/doc/manual/manual.txt: 
20081219 11:59:43< CIA-8> Fix a typo.
20081219 11:59:43< CIA-8> Rhonda discovered Battle For Wesnoth was using a capital F in one location.
20081219 12:03:28< Rhonda> Ivanovic: Please unfuzzy the manual update I sent you with respect to that typo, don't want to send it again just because of that. :)
20081219 12:06:17< Ivanovic> Rhonda: uhm, this will not be in until i run another pot-update
20081219 12:06:20< Ivanovic> and this will take some time
20081219 12:06:25< Ivanovic> (probably tomorrow)
20081219 12:07:10< CIA-8> ivanovic * r31553 /trunk/po/wesnoth-manual/de.po: updated German translation
20081219 12:14:30< Rhonda> Ivanovic: I didn't say you should do it right now. Just don't forget ...
20081219 12:18:25< Ivanovic> i will forget it...
20081219 12:18:59< mordante> why am I not surprised ;-)
20081219 12:20:10< CIA-8> mordante * r31554 /trunk/doc/manual/manual.txt: Fix a typo s/adress/address/.
20081219 12:26:39< Rhonda> eeks.
20081219 12:26:49< Rhonda> another potential fuzzy forgetfulness commit
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20081219 12:37:30< mordante> yes sorry about that
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20081219 13:12:47< CIA-8> zookeeper * r31555 /trunk/data/campaigns/Eastern_Invasion/scenarios/05.Northern_Outpost.cfg: Cleaned up how Owaec is flipped to the player's side and fixed him not being loyal.
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20081219 17:06:31< CIA-8> zookeeper * r31556 /trunk/data/campaigns/Eastern_Invasion/scenarios/04c.Mal-Ravanals_Capital.cfg: Fixed a stupid mistake.
20081219 17:09:54< CIA-8> ai0867 * r31557 /trunk/data/campaigns/An_Orcish_Incursion/scenarios/ (3 files): Get rid of empty sound lines in [message].
20081219 17:20:15< CIA-8> ivanovic * r31558 /trunk/po/ (wesnoth-manpages/de.po wesnoth-tutorial/de.po): updated German translation
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20081219 18:56:49< AI0867> Jetrel: Drill + heavens + etc. <-- Getting past problems by smashing through reason?
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20081219 19:18:01< fendrin> hi
20081219 19:21:57< mordante> hi fendrin 
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20081219 21:11:20< CIA-8> mordante * r31559 /trunk/src/asserts.hpp: 
20081219 21:11:20< CIA-8> Added ERROR_LOG.
20081219 21:11:20< CIA-8> Instead of using std::cerr "foo"; assert(false) this macro can be used.
20081219 21:11:26< CIA-8> mordante * r31560 /trunk/src/gui/widgets/ (6 files): 
20081219 21:11:26< CIA-8> Add twidget::find_widget2().
20081219 21:11:26< CIA-8> Uses find_widget based on the screen coordinates. Not much tested but
20081219 21:11:26< CIA-8> will be used for the new listbox.
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20081219 21:12:34< thespaceinvader> evening all
20081219 21:12:59< mordante> hi thespaceinvader 
20081219 21:13:11< thespaceinvader> hi mordante
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20081219 21:29:24< noy> sooo other than Baufo, who else works on Server code
20081219 21:30:50< loonycyborg> Soliton does..
20081219 21:31:30< loonycyborg> Unless you mean campaign server :)
20081219 21:31:50< noy> well I was going to make a feature request that could give moderators different color text
20081219 21:32:10< noy> but Baufo hasn't been around... 
20081219 21:32:18< CIA-8> ai0867 * r31561 /trunk/data/campaigns/The_South_Guard/scenarios/09a_Vengeance.cfg: Fix the spelling of ethIliel in a filter.
20081219 21:39:20-!- [voris] is now known as voris
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20081219 21:57:01< [Relic]> Hello :)
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20081219 22:29:14< VladimirSlavik> hi all
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20081219 22:33:29< Espreon> Hello people.
20081219 22:37:06< VladimirSlavik> hi
20081219 22:37:21< VladimirSlavik> umm... Ivanovic, around?
20081219 22:38:28< Ivanovic> jo
20081219 22:38:54-!- noy [n=Noy@d75-157-52-251.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20081219 22:39:22< Espreon> Hello noy.
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20081219 22:40:40< VladimirSlavik> ok, the new guy in team is Čestmír Houska
20081219 22:40:54< VladimirSlavik> do you need more info?
20081219 22:49:43< Ivanovic> VladimirSlavik: no, that should be all needed
20081219 22:50:05< VladimirSlavik> ok,thanks!
20081219 22:52:24< Ivanovic> your update is online
20081219 22:52:29< CIA-8> ivanovic * r31562 /trunk/ (9 files in 9 dirs): updated Czech translation
20081219 22:55:26< VladimirSlavik> thanks again!
20081219 22:55:35< VladimirSlavik> mission accomplished... bye!
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20081219 22:56:55< AI0867> I have a problem =/
20081219 22:57:33< Espreon> AI0867: What type of problem?
20081219 22:57:41< AI0867> I've fixed the bug that causes the game to crash when [end_turn] is used in a {new turn,side turn,turn \d+,turn refresh} event
20081219 22:57:59< AI0867> and when starting a network game, both clients seem to properly process it
20081219 22:58:09< AI0867> however, the *server* doesn't
20081219 22:58:25< AI0867> and refuses to accept commands from the wrong player
20081219 22:58:43< AI0867> I've put an [end_turn] in a side turn even that filters for player 3
20081219 22:58:51< AI0867> now, both clients see that it's player 4's turn
20081219 22:59:16< AI0867> but when player 4 tries to move, the server says  Removing illegal command from: AI0867_. Current player is: AI0867.
20081219 22:59:27< AI0867> AI0867 is player 3, AI0867_ is player 4
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20081219 23:00:00< Soliton> yes, if you end the turn in special ways the server won't notice.
20081219 23:00:14< AI0867> k, so how do we fix this?
20081219 23:00:40< AI0867> commit this and say [end_turn] is non-MP WML that causes OOS?
20081219 23:00:54< Soliton> make the client send a proper [end_turn].
20081219 23:01:30< CIA-8> ivanovic * r31563 /branches/1.4/ (11 files in 4 dirs): updated Italian translation (basically just to have an up to date manual on the website)
20081219 23:03:35< Soliton> alternatively you can put elaborate code in game::process_turn() to figure out what's going on. doesn't sound like a good direction to go though.
20081219 23:04:11< AI0867> the problem is that the fire_event("new turn") code is in playsingle_controller
20081219 23:04:47< AI0867> I may need to break encapsulation to send the network data
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20081219 23:06:52< AI0867> I still don't see how play_side() is redirected to the one in playmp_controller for MP =/
20081219 23:08:45< AI0867> oh, right, inheritance...
20081219 23:09:05< AI0867> with all the namespaces around I thought we weren't using that
20081219 23:10:43< Soliton> just call the single player function in the mp controller and add network sending or reimplement it again there if more intricate modifications are needed.
20081219 23:11:15< AI0867> I just saw a solution that should work
20081219 23:11:23< AI0867> I'm great at overlooking stuff I'm not familiar with
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20081219 23:36:04< Jetrel> AI0867:  something like that.  It's a reference to an anime (TTGL), which strongly parodies the idea of fighting against impossible odds, with nothing but one's "fighting spirit" to see you through.
20081219 23:36:28< boucman> hey Jetrel
20081219 23:36:36< Jetrel> hey
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20081219 23:39:14< Jetrel> AI0867:  it's just such a beautiful parody of the whole idea that one tends to think about it every time they hear an inspirational speech about believing in yourself.
20081219 23:39:27< CIA-8> mordante * r31564 /trunk/src/gui/widgets/ (widget.cpp widget.hpp): Add a const version of get_window().
20081219 23:40:16< AI0867> Jetrel: I knew that, note my reply =P
20081219 23:40:49< Jetrel> AI0867:  I thought so, but I wasn't sure. :)
20081219 23:55:06< fendrin> AI0867: may I ask you for help with a recruitment pattern?
20081219 23:56:51< AI0867> fendrin: what's the issue?
20081219 23:58:07< fendrin> The troll rocklobber is a mixed fighter. It's on a recruit list and the recruitment_pattern includes it as well. But there isn't a single Rocllobber recruited. This is in low scenario 07.
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20081219 23:59:08< fendrin> AI0867: Line 168
--- Log closed Sat Dec 20 00:00:51 2008