--- Log opened Sun Jan 04 00:00:32 2009
--- Day changed Sun Jan 04 2009
20090104 00:00:32< loonycyborg> What's to configure there?
20090104 00:00:36< Ivanovic> Sapient: uhm, on linux it "just works"
20090104 00:00:55< Ivanovic> ;)
20090104 00:01:30< Sapient> again, you can't blame Bill Gates for the boost distribution decisions
20090104 00:01:42< Ivanovic> beside this it is normal "compile program against lib" procedure
20090104 00:01:49< Ivanovic> so nothing specific IMO
20090104 00:01:51< loonycyborg> Sapient: Does the cross-compiled binaries have same issues for you?
20090104 00:02:07< Sapient> no
20090104 00:02:41< mordante> night
20090104 00:02:47-!- Baufo [n=thomas@62-47-152-202.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"]
20090104 00:02:50< Ivanovic> n8 mordante
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20090104 00:03:49< loonycyborg> Sapient: Which boost version you're using for your own compiles?
20090104 00:04:14< Sapient> 1_34_!
20090104 00:04:16< Ivanovic> personally i would blame windows for making it so freaking hard to compile things and link against libs
20090104 00:04:17< Sapient> 1_34_1
20090104 00:04:40< Ivanovic> libs that are installed as dev and runtime version systemwide
20090104 00:05:31< loonycyborg> Windows just doesn't have a standard location where zlib could be found, so it's disabled by default in boost's build system..
20090104 00:08:56< Ivanovic> that explains basically everything
20090104 00:09:18< Ivanovic> and should probably be listed on some "compiling on windows" thread in the forum or a page in the wiki
20090104 00:10:04< loonycyborg> Ivanovic: No. It doesn't. Lack of zlib support causes *linker* errors, not runtime.
20090104 00:10:26< Ivanovic> ehm, lack of zlib in boost?
20090104 00:10:36< CIA-52> zookeeper * r31938 /trunk/data/campaigns/Eastern_Invasion/images/portraits/ (5 files): Backgroundless portraits for EI.
20090104 00:10:37< Ivanovic> or just "lack of zlib" in general?
20090104 00:11:28< loonycyborg> If zlib support is disabled in boost's build system you'll get linker errors.
20090104 00:11:41< Sapient> I have zlib
20090104 00:11:42< Ivanovic> uhm, so what has Sapient built?
20090104 00:12:00< Sapient> heck if I know :(
20090104 00:12:05< loonycyborg> zlib support is an additional source in boost::iostreans.
20090104 00:12:19< loonycyborg> *iostreams
20090104 00:12:28< Sapient> I'm going to rebuild zlib and boost
20090104 00:12:53< loonycyborg> Since Sapient didn't get linker errors, his boost does have zlib support.
20090104 00:15:11< loonycyborg> Sapient: Perhaps you'll try this precompiled boost? :) http://files.openomy.com/public/loonycyborg/boost-mingw-1_36.zip
20090104 00:16:01< Sapient> thanks! :)
20090104 00:16:42< loonycyborg> Though it may cause problems if you have gcc > 4.2
20090104 00:17:07< Sapient> I guess I need to dl the 1_36 headers too
20090104 00:17:17< Ivanovic> yes
20090104 00:17:51 * loonycyborg doesn't remember whether headers are already in that zip
20090104 00:18:11< Sapient> ah, nm... the zip includes it
20090104 00:20:58< Ivanovic> loonycyborg: do we have some "libs and header for compiling on windows" package?
20090104 00:21:33< Ivanovic> if we do so, maybe upload this to sf.net?
20090104 00:22:40< loonycyborg> Ivanovic: That's really complicated. There are two flavours of gcc: with dwarf2 EH and sjlj EH
20090104 00:23:16< loonycyborg> sjlj is much more widespread, but causes crash bugs in multiplayer.
20090104 00:24:04< Ivanovic> sounds much like "we really need a clean howto including files package" to me
20090104 00:24:05< Ivanovic> ;)
20090104 00:24:35< Sapient> yeah, building on Windows has become a real Gordia's knot
20090104 00:24:52< loonycyborg> You can't use boost compiled with dw2 when compiling with gcc with sjlj since you'll get tons of linker errors.
20090104 00:25:13< Sapient> there's almost no way to do it without "cheating" by some borrowed dll's/libs
20090104 00:25:48< loonycyborg> Also, there's backward compatibility breakage somewhere between gcc 4.1-4.2
20090104 00:25:59< loonycyborg> which causes crashes with new widgets
20090104 00:26:30< Ivanovic> loonycyborg: yes, we really are in need of a "clean" howto including versions of libs and which combinations *not* to use
20090104 00:26:40< loonycyborg> if you use boost compiled with gcc <= 4.1 when compiling with gcc >= 4.2
20090104 00:27:34< Sapient> I think it is not too irksome to ask people to use the same gcc version for purposes of the guide
20090104 00:28:08< Sapient> simultaneously supporting multiple gcc versions for windows is not a necessity
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20090104 00:31:47< Ivanovic> time for me to head off to bed, n8
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20090104 00:34:06< Espreon> Good night.
20090104 00:35:58< Sapient> gn, Espreon
20090104 00:36:06< Sapient> gn, Ivanovic
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20090104 00:40:05< Sapient> yo cib
20090104 00:40:06< Espreon> Sapient: I was talking to Ivanovic.
20090104 00:40:38< cib0> hello
20090104 00:40:48< Sapient> ah, right. you are in the US so it's still a bit early for you
20090104 00:41:10< Espreon> Indeed.
20090104 00:42:06< Sapient> how about those Falcons ;)
20090104 00:42:35< Espreon> What falcons?
20090104 00:43:25< Sapient> ah, I'm watching the ATL vs AZ football game
20090104 00:43:46< zookeeper> mayeb it's an aluminum falcon.
20090104 00:44:03< Sapient> lol
20090104 00:44:04 * Espreon does not care for sports.
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20090104 00:50:38< Jetrel> zookeeper:  aluminum falcon.  /me facepalms
20090104 00:51:42< noy> hahaha
20090104 00:52:42< Espreon> Ah, well hello Jetrel.
20090104 00:53:01< Sapient> well helllooooo jetrel :)
20090104 00:53:20< Sapient> what do you think about the new orcfaces?
20090104 00:53:35< Sapient> at least no one is proposing Shrek yet
20090104 00:53:38< cib0> hey Jetrel :)
20090104 00:54:40< Espreon> Sapient: Why would they?
20090104 00:54:42< Jetrel> orcfaces?
20090104 00:55:04< Sapient> yeah, it's a jungle in there
20090104 00:55:24< Espreon> There must be a divine announcement.
20090104 00:55:42< Sapient> some of them are too apelike for my taste
20090104 00:55:45< Jetrel> Sapient:  what are you talking about?  I haven't been on the forum in a day or two, so link me if I have no clue.
20090104 00:56:14< Sapient> I'll post a link as soon as I get enough virtual memory for my browser to respond, lol
20090104 00:56:41< Sapient> I'm building with loony's boost libs
20090104 00:57:32< Sapient> http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=329500#p329500
20090104 00:58:06< Sapient> you might want to weigh in on that one
20090104 00:59:10< Jetrel> Yeah, I'm unsure what to say.
20090104 00:59:28< Sapient> a picture is worth a thousand words ;)
20090104 00:59:46< Sapient> if you have a good orcface laying around that is
20090104 00:59:56< Jetrel> IMO, the orc portraits that I think were most accurate in spirit, if not in actual execution, were the ones pickslide did.
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20090104 01:00:35< Jetrel> Pickslide wasn't as good as he'd later become when he did those, but the "feel" of them was perfect in my opinion.
20090104 01:00:50< Sapient> ah, so your in the more "human" orc camp
20090104 01:01:33< Sapient> I know we don't want to rip off LotR but the orcs in those movies looked very cool
20090104 01:02:30< Jetrel> Sapient:  yeah, I liked the LotR orcs, but I'd like to do something different with ours.
20090104 01:02:31< CIA-52> zookeeper * r31939 /trunk/data/campaigns/Descent_Into_Darkness/images/portraits/ (5 files): Backgroundless portraits for DiD.
20090104 01:02:40< zookeeper> ah, this portrait conversion business is going pretty fast.
20090104 01:03:00< Jetrel> I also really don't want to make warcraft-style orcs.  I personally don't like those.
20090104 01:03:24< Sapient> right.
20090104 01:03:37< Sapient> that's what I meant by Shrek ;)
20090104 01:03:54< zookeeper> meh, warcraft-style orcs fit warcraft perfectly :p
20090104 01:04:02< zookeeper> not that i've actually played any since warcraft 2 ;)
20090104 01:04:11< Jetrel> The "kinda reminiscent of wolverine, except more animalistic" look is vaguely the direction I'd want to go in.  Along with some occasional brute-ugliness/deformity.
20090104 01:04:51< Jetrel> zookeeper:  Although I recommend staying away from WoW at any cost, Warcraft III was actually a pretty excellent game.
20090104 01:05:04< zookeeper> Jetrel, so i've figured
20090104 01:05:06< Jetrel> It was kinda funny how they retconned the thing into having a remotely decent story.
20090104 01:06:02< zookeeper> the sea serpent portrait is kinda tricky though. needs some simple fade on the right edge for the water (probably works fine since it's water that'll be fading)
20090104 01:06:16< cib0> are those orcs or werewolves? o.o
20090104 01:06:22< zookeeper> not to mention that we'll probably need to scrap the scorpion portrait. not that it's ever really used anywhere AFAIK.
20090104 01:07:04< Jetrel> cib0:  looking vaguely were-ish would actually be appropriate for the direction I'd like, just so long as they're not identifiably any specific animal.  Shouldn't be too strong, though.
20090104 01:07:16< Espreon> zookeeper: I believe that it is used.
20090104 01:07:38< Jetrel> zookeeper:  no, actually I have the source for that (a bit of old allacrost concept art), and I think it's big enough to do the new crop. :)
20090104 01:08:13< zookeeper> ah, hmm. ok, great
20090104 01:08:35< zookeeper> i thought it was from some completely other source, i guess i remember wrong.
20090104 01:08:37< Espreon> The Silver Mage portrait in portrait/Other needs to be destroyed.
20090104 01:08:46< Jetrel> heh.
20090104 01:08:58< Jetrel> Espreon: yes, we can safely delete that now.
20090104 01:09:33< Espreon> Hmmm... but people like ESR_ like to move obsolete portraits into the resources branch...
20090104 01:09:37< Espreon> That is why I am reluctant to touch it.
20090104 01:09:52 * Espreon is not exactly confident with his SVN skills.
20090104 01:10:17< Jetrel> Then ESR needs to have his hands slapped.  Bad art should be totally deleted and forbidden.
20090104 01:11:07< Jetrel> It's just like buggy/badly-implemented code features.  I know someone might really pine for xyz feature, but either we implement it right, or we don't have it altogether.
20090104 01:11:25 * Espreon prepares for the flame war.
20090104 01:11:28< cib0> Jetrel: art is a matter of taste, though
20090104 01:11:50< zookeeper> i'm in favour of moving for instance all loyalist portraits that'll be replaced with lordbob's new ones into the resources branch for safekeeping, but the silver mage portrait really can go ;)
20090104 01:11:50< cib0> unlike code, which is buggy or not buggy
20090104 01:12:00< Sapient> loonycyborg: I'm afraid those libs didn't work... getting a lot of "SjLj" related linker errors
20090104 01:12:01< Jetrel> cib0:  Wrong.  The subjectivity of art is only a small delta on it's overall objective quality.
20090104 01:12:06< cib0> i like many of the old sprites better than the new ones, i hope those still exist atleast
20090104 01:12:25< loonycyborg> Sapient: Then you must be using dw2 compiler.
20090104 01:12:38< Sapient> doh!
20090104 01:12:52< Jetrel> Half-ass work, whether it's art, or code, makes us look bad.  We should have the courage to remove it if we don't have the time to do it right.
20090104 01:13:08< Sirp__> cib0: art is a matter of taste, and that is why we have a Lord of Art who decides what happens to art, and thus avoids arguments.
20090104 01:16:04< Espreon> Let's kill the portrait.
20090104 01:17:15< Sapient> loonycyborg: so do you reccommend that I switch compilers?
20090104 01:18:22< loonycyborg> No. I have some dw2 binaries I use for packaging.
20090104 01:18:54< Sapient> I think my problem may be zlib anyways
20090104 01:21:27< loonycyborg> ftp://loonylinuxbox.homelinux.org:990/libboost_regex-mt.a
20090104 01:21:38< loonycyborg> ftp://loonylinuxbox.homelinux.org:990/libboost_iostreams-mt.a
20090104 01:23:15< Sapient> thanks but I think I'll go back to my strategy of rebuilding zlib and boost
20090104 01:23:28< Espreon> Heh... I never realized how weird Ravanal's portrait appears until kitty got rid of the black background.
20090104 01:23:47< loonycyborg> Sapient: Did those links at least work? :)
20090104 01:23:52< Sapient> no
20090104 01:24:46< loonycyborg> Logs suggest that someone logged on the ftp and tried to chdir to libboost_regex-mt.a
20090104 01:25:55< loonycyborg> And that someone was definitely you :)
20090104 01:26:14< Sapient> my dumb browser
20090104 01:26:48< loonycyborg> Or I composed the link incorrectly..
20090104 01:26:54< Jetrel> zookeeper now done with 4 of the utbs portraits.  Trying to do as good a job as I can with these, unlike some other portrait conversions, because these are kinda permanent.
20090104 01:27:38< Espreon> I wish people would show UtBS a little more love in terms of art.
20090104 01:28:00< Jetrel> Espreon: not sure what you mean?
20090104 01:28:21< Espreon> Oh let's see... old sprites were being used until recently.
20090104 01:28:52< Espreon> At least Shadow_Master said he might do a new "Eloh" when he has time.
20090104 01:29:32< Jetrel> Ah you mean make more art for it.
20090104 01:29:49< Espreon> Indeed.
20090104 01:29:52< loonycyborg> That link works when downloading with wget on the server though..
20090104 01:30:05< zookeeper> Espreon, actually the old smaller one had some extra lines between his two middle fingers
20090104 01:30:19< zookeeper> the bigger one doesn't, and i didn't try adding them there now
20090104 01:30:25< zookeeper> Jetrel, great
20090104 01:30:33< Espreon> zookeeper: To what are you referring?
20090104 01:30:49< zookeeper> Espreon, mal-ravanal's portrait
20090104 01:30:52< Espreon> Ah.
20090104 01:31:12< zookeeper> the main weird thing which catch my attention every time are his freaky fingers.
20090104 01:31:18< zookeeper> catches, even
20090104 01:31:56< zookeeper> Jetrel, while i agree that half-assed work makes anything look bad, in the context of a game it's also quite half-assed to be missing content.
20090104 01:32:03< Espreon> Jetrel: I hope that a sprite artist who is willing to make sprites for UtBS comes along, as fendrin_ and I wanted to replace the Desert Scout line with something more distinctive and original.
20090104 01:32:52< Jetrel> zookeeper:  yes and no.  The whole reason I joined this project originally was that the presence of content (the HttT portraits) was considerably worse than the lack of those portraits.
20090104 01:33:49< Sirp__> Jetrel: and because of that I am very glad that we had those portraits. :)
20090104 01:34:09< Jetrel> zookeeper:  if I were heading a from-scratch game project, I wouldn't make a category of content unless the entire category could be done, and done well.
20090104 01:34:15< zookeeper> Jetrel, hmh, what were those first HttT portraits like then?
20090104 01:34:25< Jetrel> zookeeper:  I'll show you. :3
20090104 01:34:26< zookeeper> i've seen some of the very old ones, but they weren't _that_ bad to me :P
20090104 01:34:28< zookeeper> cool
20090104 01:34:51< Jetrel> http://www.allacrost.org/staff/user/jetryl/Wesnoth/Portraits/oldPortraits/httt-portraits-old.png
20090104 01:35:00< zookeeper> Jetrel, yeah. maybe you should have instead convinced sirp to scrap a certain big category of portraits instead ;)
20090104 01:35:09< zookeeper> ah, those
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20090104 01:35:40< zookeeper> i've played versions that old, although i mostly remembered konrad's portrait, which is the best one
20090104 01:35:41< Jetrel> On wesnoth, because we're this moon-people OSS project with a nebulous team that can pull in new contributors, like kitty, it's okay.
20090104 01:36:21< Jetrel> But if it's any small project, where people are actually getting paid, and/or when you really don't expect anyone else to be able to deliver, it's a bad, bad idea.
20090104 01:37:07 * zookeeper still isn't buying the idea that unit type portraits weren't a bad idea
20090104 01:37:44< Sirp__> zookeeper: that sentence has way too many negatives to be parseable.
20090104 01:38:03< zookeeper> err, right
20090104 01:38:14< Sirp__> isn't....weren't....bad.... (??) do you like unit type portraits or not?? :)
20090104 01:38:30 * zookeeper still thinks having unit type portraits was a bad idea
20090104 01:38:45< zookeeper> FYI, i've pretty much always hated them :)
20090104 01:39:12< Sirp__> okay....because you don't think we can get them in for all unit types?
20090104 01:39:16< zookeeper> yep
20090104 01:39:26< cib0> i like unit type portraits on important units without a portrait otherwise
20090104 01:39:37< Sirp__> Jetrel: tells me he thinks we can, and I believe what he tells me.
20090104 01:39:44< zookeeper> or more specifically, because their effort-value ratio is really bad
20090104 01:40:05< Sapient> I think most people love the new unit type portraits
20090104 01:40:05< zookeeper> most of them are rarely seen, yet huge amounts of time are poured into them
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20090104 01:40:20< zookeeper> and yeah, i don't doubt it's possible to get all of them finished. anything is doable with enough time.
20090104 01:40:43< Jetrel> Sirp__:  I think we can.  However, if I was leading this project from scratch, I wouldn't have had portraits, and I wouldn't have had story screen art.
20090104 01:41:03< zookeeper> you wouldn't have had portraits even for important characters?
20090104 01:41:08< Jetrel> But it's not from scratch, and here we are.  I think with the current team, it can be done.
20090104 01:41:13< cib0> zookeeper: i see unit type portraits alot more often than campaign portraits
20090104 01:41:15< Jetrel> zookeeper:  No, I wouldn't have.
20090104 01:41:23< cib0> are you saying campaign portraits are a bad idea then?
20090104 01:41:41< Jetrel> zookeeper:  I would have had custom sprites, and I would have actually animated those sprites to show various emotions.
20090104 01:41:55< zookeeper> cib0, no, i see them way more often than unit type portraits :p
20090104 01:42:13< zookeeper> Jetrel, ah. well, i guess that'd be an ok way to go about it.
20090104 01:42:23< Jetrel> But for example - legend of zelda was a great game.  Secret of mana was a great game.  Neither of them had portraits at all!
20090104 01:42:35< cib0> i don't think i'm the only one who plays more multiplayer(custom RPGs etc) than mainline campaigns
20090104 01:42:56< Jetrel> (by legend of zelda, I'm referring to any of the sprite based ones like minish cap, or link to the past)
20090104 01:43:35< cib0> Jetrel: Wesnoth seems to have gone another route, but i agree, custom emotion sprites could be alot more awesome than portraits
20090104 01:44:11< zookeeper> cib0, yeah, i guess you'd actually see them a lot in RPG scenarios and whatnot.
20090104 01:49:31< Shadow_Master> CIA-52: problem is, we have few good spriters for that
20090104 01:49:37< Shadow_Master> er... cib0 
20090104 01:49:41< Jetrel> zookeeper: kinda sorta at #5
20090104 01:49:52< Jetrel> afk for dinner
20090104 01:49:55< Shadow_Master> gotta make irssi's autocompletion case-sensitive
20090104 01:51:06 * zookeeper will be afk for sleep
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20090104 01:59:49< cib0> i guess spriting is alot more work than you'd think
20090104 02:01:21< Shadow_Master> yup
20090104 02:02:07< Sapient> nice work on the Elenya sprite, Shadow_Master
20090104 02:02:18< Sapient> it really evolved
20090104 02:02:27< Shadow_Master> ah, thanks
20090104 02:02:41< Shadow_Master> it's Elynia btw, one of the names in /data/core/macros/names.cfg
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20090104 02:07:08< Shadow_Master> it was a placeholder name but it got stuck in my head
20090104 02:08:13< cib0> is there any wiki entry about the HttT story_
20090104 02:08:21< Sapient> enya, elyna, ehatever :P
20090104 02:09:00< Sapient> cib0: I think there's a general history page
20090104 02:09:33< Shadow_Master> ESR_: what are the pronunciation rules for elvish names? (or any other races names, for that matter)
20090104 02:09:36< CIA-52> shadowmaster * r31940 /trunk/data/campaigns/Northern_Rebirth/utils/herodeaths.cfg: Remove duplicate string that is actually a typoed version of the first.
20090104 02:09:49< cib0> ah, yeah, i remember, i read that one i think *searches the wiki*
20090104 02:10:07< Shadow_Master> cib0: /History_of_Wesnoth
20090104 02:12:00< Shadow_Master> and, has mordante solved the per-unit portrait problems?
20090104 02:16:32< cib0> "And then, Dave said "Let there be light." And there was light." this made me laugh
20090104 02:16:35< Shadow_Master> Silence replies for you. The answer is "No".
20090104 02:16:50< Shadow_Master> cib0: I wish there was a wiki blame command.
20090104 02:25:50< Sapient> wow... I finally fixed my zlib+boost!
20090104 02:26:12< ilor_> Sapient: what fixed it?
20090104 02:26:25< Sapient> rebuilding zlib
20090104 02:27:07< Sapient> I think last time I built it I had to mess with some of the header defines before it would work
20090104 02:27:27< Sapient> this time it seemed a bit easier
20090104 02:30:23< Sapient> not sure what I did differently
20090104 02:35:04< cib0> wesnoth's history is so long
20090104 02:35:32< freim> isn't there supposed to be new oasis variants commited (with transparent bg)?
20090104 02:35:40< cib0> it would be so cool if someone wrote a roman settled in the world of Wesnoth =)
20090104 02:35:49< Jetrel> freim:  yeah.  I was sure I did that.
20090104 02:35:56< freim> Jetrel: can't find them
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20090104 02:36:52< Jetrel> freim:  ah, yes, they're only in trunk, and they've been relocated to terrain/village
20090104 02:37:08< Jetrel> desert-oasis-1.png 2, 3, and tile
20090104 02:39:42< Sapient> am I the only one who misses the old middle-click behavior?
20090104 02:39:46< freim> ah, didn't look under village
20090104 02:39:49< freim> thanks
20090104 02:39:53< Shadow_Master> Sapient: what was it?
20090104 02:40:10< Sapient> it would instantly center on the hex you middle clicked on
20090104 02:40:16< Sirp__> what does it do now?
20090104 02:40:24< Sapient> now it scrolls in the direction
20090104 02:40:26< Shadow_Master> scroll to it :)
20090104 02:40:38 * Sirp__ thinks old is better.
20090104 02:40:39< Shadow_Master> it'd be nice inddeed to have a preferences entry for that behavior
20090104 02:40:45< Sapient> not to the hex, it just starts scrolling in the direction
20090104 02:40:50< Sirp__> Shadow_Master: please, no
20090104 02:41:00< Sirp__> it should center on it.
20090104 02:41:02< Shadow_Master> * advanced perferences
20090104 02:41:05< Jetrel> Shadow_Master:  options are bad
20090104 02:41:08< Sapient> for people with slow laptops such as myself, the old behavoir was much faster for getting around
20090104 02:41:31< Sapient> I think this is one case an Option is Good
20090104 02:41:33< Shadow_Master> uh,  okay, that why I haven't bothered to fix the advances preference interface to WML and allow for more elaborate things
20090104 02:42:00< Jetrel> Sapient:  actually, this might be a case where a reversion would be good.  I personally don't have an opinion on the actual behaviour.
20090104 02:42:23< Sapient> we'll have to bug alink about it then
20090104 02:42:27< Shadow_Master> My opinion is "I like the current behavior more than the older"
20090104 02:42:30< Sapient> I think he is the scroll=master
20090104 02:42:47< Shadow_Master> but my heart senses it's mordante's or ilor's work , somehow
20090104 02:42:53< Sapient> "Options Are Bad" applies to gameplay
20090104 02:43:13< Sapient> when it comes to user interface sometimes there are two valid preferences
20090104 02:43:16< Sirp__> Sapient: no, options are bad refers to everything.
20090104 02:43:40< Jetrel> But basically, the business of adding an option for every little damn thing - as an outgrowth of a general programmer neurosis towards making infinitely configurable software, is one of the many reasons why free software useability tends to suck.
20090104 02:43:40< Sapient> ok, that is not what the wiki says ;)
20090104 02:43:44< Sirp__> Sapient: however, it needs elaboration: they are bad by default. If someone can show that both behaviors really have valid use cases....
20090104 02:43:50< ilor_> I didn't change middleclick ;)
20090104 02:43:53 * Sirp__ concurs with Jetrel 
20090104 02:44:13< Sirp__> having all these options with user interface stuff just shows a bunch of programmers who don't know how to design a user interface.
20090104 02:44:29< Sapient> in this case I think there are two different kinds of users who prefer two different kinds of scrolling and they're both valid
20090104 02:44:43< Sapient> and scrolling is important enough that we should support both
20090104 02:44:48< Sirp__> maybe we can have a button that can be pressed while middle clicking?
20090104 02:44:54< Sirp__> shift perhaps, since it means 'speed' already?
20090104 02:45:00< Jetrel> The best interfaces are those with 1] really, really good defaults, and 2] as few options as possible.
20090104 02:45:47< Jetrel> c.f. iPods and most videogame consoles (sans perhaps the latest gen)
20090104 02:45:49< Sapient> some users have wrist pain or slow computers: it's not one size fits all
20090104 02:47:06< Sirp__> the thing is, I think that most people don't use middle click *at all*
20090104 02:47:14< Sirp__> to have an option for things that most people don't even use....
20090104 02:47:47< Sapient> I can't speak for most users but I use it religiously
20090104 02:48:23 * Shadow_Master hits AI0867  and fnaek or santi over the head with a troll club
20090104 02:49:17< Sirp__> the other option is to make it an option only enabled in the preferences file.
20090104 02:49:19< Sapient> a tpyical game of wesnoth involves a LOT of scrolling around
20090104 02:49:27< Sirp__> Sapient: yes.
20090104 02:49:47< Jetrel> Sapient:  IMO, if your arguments are sound, then that should be the default, then.
20090104 02:50:18< Shadow_Master> AI0867:  int he future, could you read the subforum stickies as normal users are supposed to do? :)
20090104 02:50:56< Sirp__> Sapient: I can understand doing it your way...
20090104 02:51:05< Sirp__> the question is, what are the benefits of having it do the scrolling way?
20090104 02:51:10< Shadow_Master> it gives a generally bad impression of ourselves.  Good inconsistent bunch of people who develop wesnoth
20090104 02:51:11< Sapient> the current behavior looks really bad on my computer because the scrolling is jerky and you may easily overshoot your desired viewing area then have to adjust your wrist yet again to get it back the other direction
20090104 02:51:22< Shadow_Master> AI0867: ^ 
20090104 02:52:28< Sirp__> Sapient: absolutely. I agree. But what are the benefits of the other approach?
20090104 02:52:28< Sapient> Sirp__: I think the current behaviour was introduced because smooth scrolling "looks" better and is more intuitive for new users
20090104 02:52:56< Sirp__> Sapient: I just tried it. I don't think it's really more intuitive and am highly dubious of its value at all.
20090104 02:53:46< Shadow_Master> it does make things look more "flashy"
20090104 02:53:55< Shadow_Master> just like the flashy animation when selecting your own units
20090104 02:53:57< Sirp__> flashy loses badly to usable.
20090104 02:54:04< Jetrel> Damn right.
20090104 02:54:11< Sapient> ok, well I'm not a new user anymore but I can remember about 1-5 seconds of confusion when I first middle clicked
20090104 02:54:14< Sirp__> my vote is to go with Sapient's preferred approach.
20090104 02:54:54< Sapient> wesbot: seen alink
20090104 02:54:54< wesbot> Sapient: Sorry, I don't know of alink.
20090104 02:54:58< Jetrel> There, just finished rogrimir.  Now at about 6-7-ish of the UTBS portraits converted.
20090104 02:55:08< Sapient> looks like alink hasn't logged in a while
20090104 02:55:19< Sapient> I may have to look into it later
20090104 02:55:20< Sirp__> Sapient: imo, revert it to your preferred way. If anyone doesn't like it, let them speak up and argue with them over it.
20090104 02:55:47< Sapient> sure, it was changed without discussion so I have no qualms about reverting without discussion ;)
20090104 02:55:47< Shadow_Master> :-(
20090104 02:55:51< Sirp__> if this doesn't settle things, we will arrange and organize for a duel to the death with sword, bow, or magic.
20090104 02:56:22< Jetrel> It's these next ones that get shitty and painful, because I have to redraw/render a number of things from scratch. :(
20090104 02:56:22< Sapient> Shadow_Master: if you want to work on it go ahead
20090104 02:56:24< JW1> Hey guys, I'm trying to update the Era of Myths to 1.5.7 WML, but when I test it I keep getting the same error:
20090104 02:56:25< JW1> Error while playing the game: game_error: Unknown unit type " while generating traits
20090104 02:56:42< Shadow_Master> Sirp__: freeciv has the same behavior (scroll instead of instant change of view)
20090104 02:56:45< JW1> does anyone know what generally may be causing this bug?
20090104 02:56:49< Shadow_Master> just FYI ^^
20090104 02:57:03< Shadow_Master> JW1: ran it through wmllint?
20090104 02:57:26< Jetrel> JW1:  not sure if you're aware of it, but wmllint is this awesome tool that near-totally automates the job for you.
20090104 02:57:44< JW1> no, I'm afraid I don't even know how to do that (I'm only now starting to dig into actually learning such things on a deeper level)
20090104 02:57:53< Sapient> JW1: sounds like a [side] missing type info
20090104 02:58:12< Jetrel> I'll leave further instruction on that to shadow-master.
20090104 02:58:13< Espreon> JW1: Which OS are you using?
20090104 02:58:15< Sapient> I definitely reccommend wmllint
20090104 02:58:24< Shadow_Master> well, if you are using linux it should be matter of installing some package like wesnoth-tools, changing to the UMC dir and running wmllint there.
20090104 02:58:24< JW1> Windows Vista
20090104 02:58:41< Espreon> Hmmm...
20090104 02:58:55< Jetrel> Python runs on windows, and can run the same kinds of command-line tools.
20090104 02:59:19< Jetrel> I personally am a bit fuzzy on this, of course, since I don't use windows. :]
20090104 02:59:52< Jetrel> JW1:  sorry about not getting around to that naga thing, btw.
20090104 02:59:55< Shadow_Master> sapient may be able to help you in that one
20090104 03:00:03< Shadow_Master> he runs on winDoS
20090104 03:00:13< JW1> Jetrel: no worries, someone made a thread about it ;)
20090104 03:00:32< Jetrel> JW1:  I'll do it soon; I hadn't personally replied to the PM because of that thread, so...
20090104 03:00:53< Shadow_Master> Sirp__: um, you didn't like my mentioning of freeciv? :)
20090104 03:01:04< Shadow_Master> Sapient: no, I can't take care of any tasks atm.
20090104 03:01:07-!- ivan_i [n=chatzill@ppp91-76-32-49.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090104 03:01:17< JW1> I will take a look at a few more things at my code and get back to you guys
20090104 03:01:19< Sirp__> Shadow_Master: there is nothing wrong with freeciv...
20090104 03:01:24< Sirp__> I should try it again sometime....
20090104 03:01:47< Shadow_Master> okeydokey
20090104 03:02:11< Shadow_Master> all I know is that it progressed a lot since the last time I tried it, kind of 2005
20090104 03:02:54< Shadow_Master> ivan_i: oh, I'll reply to the yhton thread on the pailing list
20090104 03:03:02< Shadow_Master> er.
20090104 03:03:05 * Sirp__ thinks Pioneers is probably still a more enjoyable game.
20090104 03:03:47< Shadow_Master> "Python applications cannot core dump". But interpreters can...
20090104 03:03:53< Shadow_Master> harhar
20090104 03:05:04< Shadow_Master> I really like the fact that he didn't mention real cons.
20090104 03:05:17< Shadow_Master> ESR_:  that is
20090104 03:05:35< Sirp__> well that's my biggest concern with suggestions to migrate to Python. People seem to get all enthusiastic about Python and think it has no cons at all.
20090104 03:05:59< Sirp__> also, if avoiding dumping core is our goal, that's pretty easy. :) Just trap SIGSEGV. ;)
20090104 03:06:04< ESR_> It has one.  It doesn't perform very well even relative to Perl.
20090104 03:06:18 * Jetrel hides behind a blast sheild.
20090104 03:06:22< Sirp__> ESR_: that's not the only one. There are plenty.
20090104 03:06:25< Jetrel> sp/shield.
20090104 03:06:44< Sirp__> the biggest in my mind is that to mix C++ and Python we have to go through an interface, these interfaces are typically ugly to program
20090104 03:07:18< Sirp__> another is that in my opinion, Python without unit tests is unmaintainable, and unit tests are probably unrealistic for a project with our level of discipline.
20090104 03:07:34< Sirp__> (at least wide spread unit tests)
20090104 03:08:11< ESR_> The C/C++ Python bindings aren't too bad, actually. Certainly a lot less nasty than, say, Perl extensions. 
20090104 03:09:33< Sirp__> ESR_: I don't think anyone is suggesting using Perl in the Wesnoth engine.
20090104 03:10:55< ESR_> My point is the design of the C/C++ bindings is pretty clean.  Such things are intrinsically defect attractors, of course, but I don't know of a better example of managing the problem.
20090104 03:11:10< Sapient> let's see how many Python developers flock to wespython on github
20090104 03:11:44< Sapient> maybe there will be a great schism
20090104 03:11:45< Jetrel> Sapient:  I've been meaning to ask - I know what git is, but what's github?
20090104 03:12:08< Jetrel> I take it's a website, but what's the raison d'etre?
20090104 03:12:39-!- Noyga [n=lame-z@AVelizy-151-1-83-225.w86-205.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
20090104 03:12:50< Sapient> Search Results
20090104 03:12:50< Sapient> Secure Git hosting and collaborative development
20090104 03:13:08< Sapient> I don't use it personally, but that's what el goog suggests
20090104 03:13:23< ivan_i> Github is free code hosting service, The folks there are very friendly.
20090104 03:13:59< Jetrel> mkay
20090104 03:14:59< Sapient> apparently Ivan_i is intent on doing his total conversion regardless of what we think, rather than the incremental improvements approach, so I suggest to let his project grow seperately and see which one thrives the most
20090104 03:16:20< Sirp__> Sapient: I agree with that approach.
20090104 03:16:44< Sirp__> ESR_: the thing is, the C bindings still require manual reference counting, IIRC
20090104 03:16:56< Sapient> that's the beauty of GPL; if you don't like the way we are doing things you can fork it
20090104 03:16:58< Sirp__> we will have to develop our own set of wrappers, to RAII them, if we're not going to use boost::python
20090104 03:17:28< ivan_i> boost::python looks very attractive
20090104 03:17:48< Sirp__> and yes, if ivan wants to develop a fork rather than the incremental approach I suggested, I can't really object to that at all. :)
20090104 03:18:08< Sirp__> I would be curious to see -- I've been told that productivity will be something like 500% to 2000% higher using Python. I openly doubt this, but it'll be interesting to see.
20090104 03:19:25< ivan_i> I would definetly prefer if my work would be merged into mainline in the future
20090104 03:19:42< ESR_> I think a fork would be a bad idea.  Just thew iverhead of cross-porting C++ fixes would be horrible. 
20090104 03:20:02< ESR_> s/thew iverhead/the overhead/
20090104 03:20:19< Sapient> I don't see a merge happening; if python wesnoth is better then we can all switch to that when it is ready
20090104 03:20:47< Sapient> in the meantime not everyone wants to assist the conversion scheme
20090104 03:21:26< Sirp__> well yeah, if python wesnoth is clearly better, then we'd all switch to it, which could be considered a 'merge'.
20090104 03:21:27< Sapient> the alternative is to use an incremental approach that plays nicely with our existing development process
20090104 03:21:43< Sirp__> but, I don't think there's any way we're going to promise a merge at this stage.
20090104 03:21:52< ESR_> Umm...I do. So, I believe, do elias and loonycyborg.  But, ivan_i, you need to do a better job of explaining what you're doing and working with us.
20090104 03:22:10< ESR_> I mean I want to help with the conversion.
20090104 03:22:32< Sapient> ESR_: then maybe you should work on the repository ivan_i has setup
20090104 03:23:03< Sapient> not everybody wants to drop everything and work on total conversion
20090104 03:23:13< ESR_> Sapient: I don't want to encourage splitting development into two separate repos.
20090104 03:23:44< Sapient> right, you want everybody to work on total conversion
20090104 03:23:48< ESR_> And I don't think anyone who doesn't want to is being asked to work on this.
20090104 03:24:15< ivan_i> Great, thank you ESR_. I will write in detail about my project as soon as I have few more things implemented
20090104 03:26:00< Sapient> ESR_ when trunk is a broken pile of garbage you don't have much choice on the matter of what you want to work on
20090104 03:26:08< Sirp__> ESR_: I'm afraid that after hearing discussions and seeing emails about this project, I personally have almost no confidence in it at all.
20090104 03:26:58< ESR_> I think you're both being very hasty and overly negative.
20090104 03:28:07< Sirp__> I can still have my mind changed, but we've asked questions and have no clear answers, and the approach taken seems to commit us to python rather than being iterative.
20090104 03:28:08< ESR_> I think I have demonstrated a pretty strong commitment to the quality of our code.  I am not going to *let* trunk turn into a "broken pile of garbage".
20090104 03:29:28< ESR_> Sirp: I've made it clear to ivan_i several times that he needs to make his work plan clear.  I think we would all be best seved by withoholding judgment until it is.
20090104 03:30:08< ESR_> Right now you two are both making unfounded assumptions.
20090104 03:30:14< Sapient> I'm trying real hard to be optimistic but the "hasty" one is probably the one talking about merge plans at this stage
20090104 03:30:42< Sirp__> ESR_: basically though we are not going to accept a 5000 line patch.
20090104 03:31:06< Sirp__> in my opinion, if someone wants more python in Wesnoth, they should go and put a python interface in game_events.cpp
20090104 03:31:31< Sirp__> then scenarios could be programmed using python, then we'd see a hive of activity around scenario designers making campaigns using python
20090104 03:31:48< Sirp__> if this were successful, it would set the stage to integrate more and more python into wesnoth.
20090104 03:34:10< ESR_> I think the use of Python in the game engine is a separate issue from Python as a WML extension, and don't want to tangle the two together lest the resulting project become overambitious and doomed.
20090104 03:35:07-!- [Relic] [n=[Relic]@adsl-76-229-202-137.dsl.milwwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090104 03:36:12< [Relic]> Hello :)
20090104 03:36:24< Sirp__> ESR_: I don't think it's really a seperate issue, but in any case, I think as a game extension it's much less intrusive than in the core engine.
20090104 03:36:48< Sirp__> additionally, we could also re-write our random map generators in Python
20090104 03:36:53< Sirp__> I think that is an example of an area where Python would be useful.
20090104 03:37:15< Sirp__> it's also an area which is contained enough so we can evaluate how well Python works without it affecting too much.
20090104 03:38:02< ESR_> I don't agree with the "less intrusive" part, but I've had the thought before that the map generator was low-hanging fruit for Python.
20090104 03:38:25-!- crimson_penguin [n=ben@64.201.60.218] has quit ["Leaving"]
20090104 03:39:05< Jetrel> Gar, and there's melusand.
20090104 03:39:42< CIA-52> esr * r31941 /trunk/data/campaigns/Eastern_Invasion/scenarios/ (05.Northern_Outpost.cfg 19_Epilog.cfg): Fix errors I introduced in r30297.
20090104 03:39:46< Jetrel> 7 of 14 done.
20090104 03:39:56 * Jetrel cusses.
20090104 03:42:54< ivan_i> I still have to make few important decisions on what stuff should be moved to Python and what should stay in C++
20090104 03:43:14< Sirp__> ESR, ivan_i: out of curiosity, do you guys at least agree that Python without extensive unit tests is unworkable?
20090104 03:43:39< ivan_i> Yes extensive unit tests will be written
20090104 03:44:28< ESR_> Sirp: I am a fan of unit tests, but I haven't found Python without them to be unworkable. They're an important tool in the verification kit, but not the only one.
20090104 03:45:08< Sirp__> okay, because personally I've never seen a substantial sized Python project without unit tests that I thought was readable or maintainable.
20090104 03:46:23< ESR_> I could point you at Python projects I've done that have extensive test suites, and others that don't.
20090104 03:46:48< Sirp__> ESR_: actually I think I would like that.
20090104 03:47:52< ESR_> Let's see...the two that leap to mind are doclifter and the Python parts of gpsd.  And a third would be install-sshkeys.
20090104 03:48:32< JW1> Sapient: could you perhaps instruct me on how to run wmllint on Windows?
20090104 03:49:24< Sapient> JW1: sending you a PM...
20090104 03:49:54< ESR_> None of these have unit tests in the formal Java-world sense; I have more tendency to build serious regression-test suites.  Same idea, different emphasis.
20090104 03:50:05< Sirp__> ESR_: doclifter is one 7000 line Python file??
20090104 03:51:20< ESR_> Yes.  Probably the least readable of the bunch.  It's pretty hairy internally. But it works -- I routinely test it on manual page corpuses from entire Linux distributions, 10K or so at a time.
20090104 03:52:44< ESR_> My rate of clean conversions is about 98%, which should astonish you if you know how messy and perverse man page markup often gets.
20090104 03:52:54< Sirp__> ESR_: the thing is, that kind of program is much easier. It fits neatly into an input -> output mold, and so it can have a set of test cases...
20090104 03:53:43< ESR_> Right.  For a good example of oner that doesn't, that's difficult to eithe regression- or unit-test, see install-sshkeys.
20090104 03:55:08< ESR_> doclifter, BTW, ia also the one of the three that would have been most insane to try to do in a language with only fixed-extent types.
20090104 03:58:26< cib0> you know.. if there are really cons with python, why even use it?
20090104 03:58:53 * Sapient gasp
20090104 03:59:42< cib0> i mean, i thought the point of using python was to replace C++ where it is inferior
20090104 04:00:11< Sapient> cib0: are you deliberately trying to drag us back into the language flamewars?
20090104 04:00:34< Sapient> if so, bravo for distraction tactics
20090104 04:00:46< cib0> language flamewars?
20090104 04:01:10< Sapient> you know, X superior to Y, yadda yadda
20090104 04:01:37< cib0> i have not been meaning to start a flamewar
20090104 04:02:26< Sapient> well it is a relevant question, albeit an unproductive one to ask on IRC
20090104 04:02:28< cib0> i have been meaning to start a discussion, though unfortunately noone would respond on the mailing list
20090104 04:02:56< Jetrel> The only thing I'll add to the discussion, and I'm loathe to add even this for fear of getting embroiled in things, but ... if someone were to go to all the trouble to do a rewrite, it would seem more sensible to me to make a different game.  Namely - a sequel.
20090104 04:03:28< JW1> ooh
20090104 04:03:32< Jetrel> I've mused about a FFT-like sequel to wesnoth, using wesnoth's art resources, but using a FFT-like 3d landscape, instead.
20090104 04:03:34< JW1> yes that sounds good to me ;)
20090104 04:03:52< JW1> Jetrel - I'd be on board with that ;D
20090104 04:04:18< Jetrel> Because if you go to all that trouble, at the end of the day, you've worked your ass off, and all you've got is the same damn game, albeit perhaps more maintainable.
20090104 04:04:38< Sapient> but Jetrel, such radical changes would be done with a snap of the finger once we have wespython (or so we are led to believe)
20090104 04:05:36< Jetrel> JW1:  actually, I'd be very interested in seeing such a thing made, eventually.  All my my plans regarding sprite art are basically completely compatible with that, and curiously that's just accidental.
20090104 04:06:14< cib0> i don't know whether anyone has read or understood what i've said in my mail, it rather seems they simply ignored it and keep discussing about personal and emotional matters
20090104 04:06:40< JW1> Jetrel: if such a project were to take off I would be more compelled to learn a programming language ;)
20090104 04:07:41< cib0> to me, it's not a matter of python, or testing out python, it's rather a matter of design and that is something that would have to be discussed more
20090104 04:07:43< Jetrel> For those in the channel who are wondering, FFT, or "Final Fantasy Tactics" is a relatively similar game to wesnoth.  The big difference is that it uses a 3d landscape (more or less composed of cubes), and the gameplay actually takes this 3d aspect into account.
20090104 04:09:16< Jetrel> Hoo.  that's now 8/14 portraits done for the conversion of portrait-masks in UTBS.  6 to go.  :/
20090104 04:11:14< cib0> and i'm not even talking about things like memory or unit tests there, i think that has nothing to do with HL programming, HL programming does nothing more but semantically put things together, it cares about meaning, not about implementation or data types.. however, python seems not to be a language that manages to do that well, it's doubtful there is any language like that at all
20090104 04:12:59< Sapient> cib0: maybe nobody understands exactly what you are trying to talk about? 
20090104 04:13:49< cib0> hm, probably
20090104 04:14:07< Sapient> If your question is "Why Python" then there have been some reasons for and against it
20090104 04:14:24< Sapient> that is what the entire discussion is about
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20090104 04:16:11< cib0> Sapient: the points against it seem to be mostly in the areas that are supposed to be handled by C++ anyway
20090104 04:16:12< Shadow_Master> ESR_: lengthy response for you
20090104 04:18:00< cib0> well, i think i will just leave it be anyway
20090104 04:18:15< cib0> i do not quite know enough about languages so far, i will just see how it turns out
20090104 04:18:56< Sapient> maybe this is what you are looking for: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_programming_languages
20090104 04:20:44< Sirp__> cib0: basically software engineering is a very young discipline. There are various opinions on the best approach to take, and many of these opinions are very different, even diametrically opposed.
20090104 04:22:26-!- Espreon [n=espreon@c-76-117-239-33.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
20090104 04:23:20< cib0> Sirp__: yes and it is probably not only the language, but also the techniques used..
20090104 04:23:39< Sirp__> cib0: absolutely.
20090104 04:24:06< Sirp__> personally I am very skeptical about duck typing, for instance.
20090104 04:24:07< Sapient> wikipedia ranks Python best in the Expressiveness category
20090104 04:24:43< Sapient> although just because you *can* do 10 things in one line, doesn't mean you *should*
20090104 04:25:07< cib0> ruby is not even in that comparision :p
20090104 04:28:05< Sirp__> ESR_: so, I think that doclifter and ssh-installkeys, at least from my cursory look over them, are the kinds of projects that scripting languages are good at. I would use a scripting language myself for such projects, in all likelihood.
20090104 04:28:07< cib0> Sirp__: isn't duck typing one of the very basic high level concepts? it enables you to abstract interfaces from implementation
20090104 04:28:33< Sirp__> cib0: it's a very basic high level concept. But languages that don't use duck typing can still abstract interfaces from implementation
20090104 04:28:37< Sirp__> I think you're thinking of polymorphism.
20090104 04:31:17< Sirp__> I'd really like to see a large program with a GUI that is written in Python. The only one I really know of is Chandler, and afaik, that has been a disaster.
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20090104 04:32:28< cib0> i miss the difference between polymorphism and duck typing
20090104 04:34:26< cib0> ok, so if i'm not mistaken, duck typing is compile time and polymorphism is not?
20090104 04:35:15< cib0> in that case, i guess i agree, it sort of throws all the structural data away.
20090104 04:35:41< Sapient> cib0: you might want to take a step back and just read the definition of those two terms
20090104 04:35:56< Sirp__> cib0: duck typing is a system where you accept an object, and don't care what *type* the object is, just as long as it can perform all the operations you want to apply.
20090104 04:36:03< cib0> i meant it the other way round, srry
20090104 04:39:03< Sapient> polymorphism can be acheived in many ways; pythonic duck typing is just one of those
20090104 04:39:28< cib0> i see
20090104 04:41:12< cib0> those languages keep confusing me
20090104 04:42:02< cib0> i think dynamic typing is the actually problematic point
20090104 04:42:39< cib0> duck typing seems only to be a way to make dynamic typing possible
20090104 04:43:09< cib0> or is duck typing actually dynamic typing?
20090104 04:43:39< Sirp__> duck typing is one style of dynamic typing
20090104 04:43:57< Sirp__> but you are right that for a project of Wesnoth's size and type, I am leery of dynamic typing of any kind.
20090104 04:44:25< Sapient> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_typing#Comparison_with_other_type_systems
20090104 04:46:13< ivan_i> I've very large web sites implemented in Python those projects are comparable to Wesnoth in size and complexity
20090104 04:47:52< Sirp__> web sites are completely different; they use a very different set of development techniques and styles, and typically they are broken up into many small projects.
20090104 04:48:13< Sirp__> everyone knows that websites are largely developed in scripting languages; that's very well established.
20090104 04:49:21< Sirp__> I mean gee, most of Yahoo runs on Perl. :)
20090104 04:49:36< cib0> hm.. i really wonder what would be a good way to go to implement some sort of static interfaces in HL languages
20090104 04:51:12< Sirp__> I'd also like to hear a convincing explanation from someone of why Chandler was such a dismal failure despite being in Python and well funded, while PIM's written in C have been much more successful. :)
20090104 04:54:28< Sapient> maybe we should convert to C# since it "is more typesafe than C++" and the version 4 release supports duck-typing  (according to wikipedia) ;)
20090104 04:55:25< Sapient> how those statements can both be true is beyond me, though
20090104 04:58:00< cib0> hm.. i guess it'd have to be some sort of.. 'structural typing' as stated in the wiki there.. usually, in a HL language, you don't care at all if it's an integer, float, long, or whatever, you just care that it's a number.. but you do care about that, it shouldn't be a string..
20090104 05:00:03< Sapient> no, it basically involves setting a flag on the class definition
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20090104 05:01:25< Sirp__> Sapient: actually personally I think C# is a very good language.
20090104 05:03:03< cib0> a flag on the class definition?
20090104 05:04:22< Sapient> http://blogs.msdn.com/ericwhite/archive/2008/10/29/anders-hejlsberg-introduces-c-4-0-at-pdc-2008.aspx
20090104 05:04:44< ivan_i> About 10% of all Wesnoth was Python code even before I started my projects. It is already used quite extensively and therefore is the most natural choice IMHO
20090104 05:07:35< Sirp__> well what about C++ since over 80% is C++? :)
20090104 05:09:10< ivan_i> C++ is good, the point is that C++/Python combination could be better. Commercial games like Civilization took this approach and was successful
20090104 05:10:29< Sirp__> actually Civilization 4 mostly just used Python for extensibility, which is something that I have advocated.
20090104 05:10:35< cib0> where can i actually get his modifications? id like to take a look at them
20090104 05:10:51< Sirp__> and in fact, they found that Python wasn't really sufficient for extensibility. They also exposed a C++ dll which they encouraged people to modify.
20090104 05:11:06< Sirp__> AFAIK Civilization 4 doesn't really use any Python in the core engine.
20090104 05:20:21< cib0> Sirp__: maybe Wesnoth would work quite well with python if the different parts were abstracted from eachother
20090104 05:20:49< Sirp__> cib0: I think it would work quite well if we used Python as an extension language and made small suitable parts into Python
20090104 05:21:00< Sirp__> I'm not opposed to it per se. I'm simply leery of it.
20090104 05:21:06< Sirp__> there is a difference. :)
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20090104 05:21:45< cib0> well, you were arguing that there were no big projects with a GUI that went well with python
20090104 05:22:25< cib0> but maybe it was because the whole thing was too mixed up and there was no abstraction being made, a bit like it is now with Wesnoth
20090104 05:24:30< cib0> in pypy, which is a large project based on python, there is much structuring and abstraction being done, which is actually the point of a HL language
20090104 05:25:24< cib0> i think you might just rewrite parts of Wesnoth to be structured like that and it would have a similar effect to using python
20090104 05:25:46< cib0> *to be structured like that with C++
20090104 05:25:55< cib0> just philosophizing
20090104 05:27:01< Sapient> keep in mind that wesnoth has grown in a very organic way from contributers with different backgrounds different philosophies and different levels of expertise
20090104 05:27:55< Sapient> so, yes, it could benefit from refactoring and occaisionally it does get refactored in different areas
20090104 05:28:42< cib0> yup, the only difference here is that someone wants to do it in, like a year or something and thinks that it will solve all problems
20090104 05:29:22< Sapient> I'm not sure if that's a fiar characterization of the python initiative
20090104 05:29:27< Sapient> *fair
20090104 05:30:03< cib0> i didn't try to characterize the whole python initiative, im only characterizing the controversial part of it
20090104 05:30:25< Sapient> the initiative seems to be more focused on conversion first, refactor and/or improve things later
20090104 05:30:48< cib0> hm, really?
20090104 05:31:00< cib0> if that is so, i don't know how it is going to work out
20090104 05:31:39< cib0> i thought he were only making it work the same, but restructure it while he is at it
20090104 05:32:15< cib0> seeing as he started by rewriting the top parts, which actually make for the structure
20090104 05:32:33< Sapient> I am referring to ESR's initiative
20090104 05:33:05< Sapient> you assume that ESR and ivan_i have the same goals; I do not
20090104 05:34:19< Sapient> also, you are forgetting that one of the main arguments for conversion is python = easy language, more coders
20090104 05:34:22< cib0> i don't quite understand ESR's goals i guess
20090104 05:34:44< cib0> personally, i didn't ever see that as a reason
20090104 05:35:10< cib0> right, ESR said so
20090104 05:35:13< Sapient> then maybe you should explain why it is not a good reason on the dev-ml
20090104 05:35:22< Sapient> personally, I am getting tired of this discussion
20090104 05:37:05< Sirp__> Sapient: I am tired of it also. :-/
20090104 05:38:02< cib0> i am tired of nothing coming out of it and everyone remaining at their place
20090104 05:38:39< Sapient> if I never see another "Why WML?" or "Why C++?" thread then that will be just grand
20090104 05:40:25< cib0> no objection against someone actually getting something useful done, though
20090104 05:41:16< Sapient> "useful" would be what we developers have been doing
20090104 05:41:27< Sapient> in the language Wesnoth is already written in
20090104 05:41:34< Sirp__> cib0: it's much better us staying the same than us just changing for change's sake.
20090104 05:42:50< Sapient> there are pro's and con's with any language; otherwise, people would only use one language
20090104 05:43:36< Sirp__> Sapient: ahhh talking to many Python supporters, I get the feeling that they think that there SHOULD only be one language, and their mission in life is to convert every project to Python.
20090104 05:43:37< Sapient> personally, I think Wesnoth and C++ are a good fit, but there are places where Python also makes sense to extend Wesnoth
20090104 05:45:08< Sirp__> Sapient: I feel so too.
20090104 05:45:10 * cib0 doesn't start another discussion.
20090104 05:45:24< Sapient> cib0 there comes a point in a language argument where you can't just say something is strictly superior and it becomes a matter of preference
20090104 05:45:41< Sapient> that's why these things keep turning in circles
20090104 05:46:59< Sirp__> right. Which is the huge problem here that leads to an impasse. I personally think that for a project of Wesnoth's style, strong typing with checking is much better than alternatives. ivan_i and ESR apparently think that it is anathema compared to dynamic types and avoidance of low level details.
20090104 05:47:04< Sirp__> all preference.
20090104 05:47:24< ivan_i> I agree with that
20090104 05:48:02< Sirp__> so who is right and who is wrong? Or is there even a right and wrong to this discussion?
20090104 05:49:05< ivan_i> Only time will tell...
20090104 05:50:47< Sirp__> actually I doubt it. I would like it to, but I doubt it.
20090104 05:52:09< Sirp__> whoever's language "loses" will have excuses. Then they or someone else will push for the same thing down the road. Over and over, in an irritatingly never ending cycle. That is the way it has always been with people selling computer science technologies.
20090104 05:52:37< Sapient> ivan_i seems pretty confident that his vision for wesnoth will be the more successful one. I don't dread wespython but I don't share the urge to bring it about, either
20090104 05:54:52< Sapient> I wouldn't care if it was written in Smalltalk, C#, or any language of similar powers
20090104 05:55:01< Sirp__> I'd just like ivan_i to at least agree that if he can't bring this about in a reasonable span of time, he will be nice enough to stick around and write an essay telling us why the python effort failed, and discouraging others from the same endeavor. :)
20090104 05:55:54< Sirp__> also though, it'd be hard to quantify success or failure. In reality, despite ivan_i and perhaps ESR's claims, there's no way that Python is 5x or 10x as productive as C++ is. So, the key thing if there was a fork would be who can get more programmers? And, realistically, it'd be difficult for the Python fork to get as many programmers.
20090104 05:56:28< Sirp__> and, since at best, Python would only be some moderate % more productive than C++, without good programmers, it couldn't possibly compete.
20090104 05:57:07< Sapient> we've also had our share of Java advocates, although none of them got very far with implementation
20090104 05:57:38< Sirp__> Sapient: blindly pushing Java as being the cure of all cures....so 90's!
20090104 06:02:35< Sapient> Sirp-- I do you remember calling for Java coders to port Wesnoth to Android ;)
20090104 06:02:50< Sapient> I think there were like.. 0 responses
20090104 06:04:01< Sapient> http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=261991#p261991
20090104 06:04:33< Sapient> so where are all the Java advocates when you need them?
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20090104 06:05:20< ivan_i> It's hard to attract developers to your project, that's why I don'l like the fork idea, finding the agreements and working together is much better in my view
20090104 06:05:54< Sapient> I can see why you would prefer that
20090104 06:06:05< Sirp__> Sapient: imo a wesnoth-lite for Android would be reasonable.
20090104 06:07:28< Sirp__> ivan_i: btw, in this thread: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=23337&sid=7caf32a4c102de93fb946904f060981d is version 0.1 of Wesnoth. I'd be curious as to how quickly you think you could develop an equivalent program in Python.
20090104 06:08:48< ivan_i> I have 0.1 downloaded :) it answered a lot of questions I had about Wesnoth code
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20090104 06:11:24< Sirp__> because personally, I think that with monolithic GUI programs, if the program is very small, a good Python programmer might have a 1000% productivity advantage over a good C++ programmer.
20090104 06:12:00< Sirp__> while with a program the size of Wesnoth 0.1 (which is still very small, comparatively) the Python programmer's advantage shrinks to only 0-50%
20090104 06:12:16< Sirp__> and then, when a program gets much larger than that, the C++ programmer will begin having an advantage.
20090104 06:14:21< Sirp__> but that is just me. Apparently it seems that most Python programmers think they can maintain their 1000% advantage to programs of any size.
20090104 06:14:26< ivan_i> Python is not the right tool for the lower-level game engine, I would write it in C++ myself
20090104 06:15:17< ivan_i> I don't advocate Python-only code, I'm all for combining C++ and Python
20090104 06:15:33< Sirp__> I'm talking about for high level code. C++ is a high and low level language.
20090104 06:15:58< Sirp__> though really, Wesnoth doesn't have very much truly 'low level code'. I'm not sure what you mean by low level code, in fact. :)
20090104 06:16:21< ivan_i> video, graphics etc
20090104 06:17:00< ivan_i> but scenarios, campaigns units are high level
20090104 06:17:43< Sirp__> and so scenarios, campaigns, and units are all implemented in WML.
20090104 06:17:44< Sapient> most of the low-level operations are relegated to SDL
20090104 06:17:59< Jetrel> Although honestly, doing most of scenarios/campaigns/units in anything other than WML is kinda insane, because they're primarily data storage with a mild amount of logic.
20090104 06:18:44< Sapient> of all the WML replacement languages, Scheme was the only one I could actually view as an improvement
20090104 06:18:57< Jetrel> If they were primarily logic, it might make sense to use a premade language, but they're not.  Most of it is just key=value stuff, or some derivation thereof.
20090104 06:19:28< Sirp__> right, if we're just talking about doing video operations in C, then you'd use PyGame and be done.
20090104 06:20:45< Sapient> there are some things such as the preprocessor and attack prediction code which are written in very obscure manner which is supposedly to make it more efficient but I have my doubts
20090104 06:21:25< Sirp__> Sapient: the preprocessor is far overcomplicated imo. :-/
20090104 06:21:35< Sapient> in fact I would like to see the preprocessor and attack prediction totally replaced
20090104 06:22:41< Sirp__> Sapient: what do you mean by attack prediction?
20090104 06:23:18< Sapient> rusty's baby
20090104 06:23:33< Sapient> it is using C-style arrays among other things
20090104 06:24:15< Sapient> and it's a bit too rigid as far as extensibility/adaptation
20090104 06:24:28< Sapient> it won't keep pace with WML developments I'm afraid
20090104 06:25:06< Sapient> the old attack simulation model may have to come back
20090104 06:26:44< Sirp__> Sapient: ahhh yes, rusty always writes in C-style code. :)
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20090104 06:34:05< Sapient> I think I've got a fix for santi's crash
20090104 06:34:09< Sapient> testing now
20090104 06:49:23< CIA-52> sapient * r31942 /trunk/src/ai.cpp: fix a crash that was possible if the AI leader was killed via WML while moving to his keep
20090104 06:52:00< Sapient> even at WML's current level of power, it is difficult to keep it from making changes to the game state which cause problems for the engine
20090104 06:52:49< Sapient> keep that in mind when you seek to increase its power
20090104 06:53:04< Sapient> as I often do ;)
20090104 06:55:24< Jetrel> Also.  Gentlemen, I propose a toast to firefox breaking 20% market share.  Hear, hear. :)
20090104 06:55:39< Sapient> I'm using chrome now
20090104 06:56:23< Jetrel> Sapient:  while I was at my recent job, using windows, I too switched to chrome.  Damn that thing is fast.
20090104 06:56:56< Sapient> that's why I like it too
20090104 06:57:27< Jetrel> Also, the "each tab is a process" is a huge, huge win for me, because it prevents lockups of the whole browser.
20090104 06:57:37< Sapient> unfortunately, it doesn't work with composing mail in hotmail for some reason
20090104 06:57:59< Jetrel> Also ... oooh, chrome just broke 1%, too.
20090104 06:58:14< Sirp__> I thought that Chrome was already at 2% or so
20090104 06:58:27< Jetrel> Depends on who you ask.
20090104 06:58:35< Jetrel> That's a believable statistic.
20090104 06:58:48< Jetrel> Chrome is beating Opera. :)
20090104 07:00:32< Sapient> yay? :)
20090104 07:00:39< Jetrel> Not like I have anything against Opera.
20090104 07:00:52< Jetrel> But the good news is that IE is in a steady, if slow, decline.
20090104 07:00:57< Sirp__> well, just as long as it gained the market share at the expense of browsers other than Opera.
20090104 07:01:08< Jetrel> Now below 69%.
20090104 07:05:47< Jetrel> Man, I'm running out of steam on this portrait masking project.
20090104 07:05:54< Jetrel> At about 10 portraits, though.
20090104 07:07:06< Jetrel> The notable unfinished ones are the troll, and Eloh.
20090104 07:07:33< Jetrel> Both because I have to redraw oh so much.
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20090104 07:28:11 * Turuk thinks he needs to be less helpful in the Scenario and Campaign Development....
20090104 07:29:01< Turuk> so many PM questions, so little time
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20090104 07:45:58< Jetrel> Turuk:  lol
20090104 07:46:08< Jetrel> Turuk:  I sympathize, truly I do.
20090104 07:49:21< Turuk> ah yes, I can imagine your inbox must be bursting every time you get on, I do not envy you your job
20090104 07:53:04< Sirp__> Turuk: ahhhh I can appreciate that. :) Even I get plenty of PM's and they are never something I want to get into when it's regarding some WML bug or another.
20090104 07:53:37< Turuk> true, I guess I should not complain too much as mine are not technical or artistic
20090104 07:54:21< Turuk> just some general WML difficulties and wanting advice on writing/sceario design, or along those lines.
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20090104 09:51:30< mordante> morning
20090104 09:52:55< boucman> morning
20090104 09:53:25< mordante> hi boucman 
20090104 09:55:41< Sirp__> hi boucman, mordante 
20090104 09:55:47< mordante> hi Sirp__ 
20090104 09:55:56< boucman> Sirp__: not sleeping yet ? :P
20090104 09:57:02< Sirp__> not quite yet.
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20090104 10:14:12 * mordante didn't change middle click either, I also think it was alink
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20090104 10:47:06< Ivanovic> moin
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20090104 10:54:13< Baufo> mordante, just wondering, why doesn't  ttext_::handle_key_backspace() like handle_key_delete() delete selected text?
20090104 11:02:08< mordante> Baufo not sure I know I looked at the behaviour in a program and it had that behaviour, I just tested more programs and it looks they delete the selection
20090104 11:02:49< mordante> so I think I'll change the behaviour, especially since the old widgets also delete the selection
20090104 11:07:24< Baufo> I see, well, I just wondered because I had never seen this behavior before
20090104 11:07:55< mordante> I also can't remember where I saw it :-/
20090104 11:08:33< mordante> but I know I looked at other GUIs while implementing the text selection behaviour
20090104 11:18:56< zookeeper> Jetrel, ah, good job on the UtBS portraits
20090104 11:19:17< Jetrel> zookeeper: tip o the hat
20090104 11:19:44< Jetrel> zookeeper:  I still have three to go, and my motivation is ebbing a bit low, but I think I'll be good after a night's sleep.
20090104 11:20:21< mordante> oh Jetrel I found the cause of your ugly text problem
20090104 11:20:41< Jetrel> mordante: yeah, cp said you found it was some ppc thing
20090104 11:21:01< mordante> yes, wasn't sure whether he already mentioned it
20090104 11:21:03< Jetrel> zookeeper:  In other news, WRT that request you/kitty had had about the HttT portraits, I'm thinking about doing the new ones starting in the next few days.
20090104 11:21:14< mordante> it's fixed in trunk cp tested the fix
20090104 11:21:25< Jetrel> zookeeper: since I'm feeling a bit burned out on sprites for the moment.
20090104 11:21:28< zookeeper> Jetrel, uhuh. don't you have other, more immediate spriting projects to work on?
20090104 11:21:29< zookeeper> oh, ok
20090104 11:21:47< Jetrel> zookeeper: and since those are getting to be an eyesore.
20090104 11:22:02< zookeeper> how long do you think it'd take to finish them? i'd still like to have all portraits transparent by the next release which i hope will come in like a week or so.
20090104 11:22:07< zookeeper> or two. or whatever.
20090104 11:22:07< Jetrel> mordante:  what exactly what the problem anyways?
20090104 11:22:51< Jetrel> zookeeper:  I have no idea.  Hopefully I can get it to about one a night.  That would be considerably worse than kitty's speed.
20090104 11:23:07< Jetrel> Also, bed in ~5min
20090104 11:23:56< mordante> SDL and cairo have other ideas about how alpha values are stored so I need to convert the values
20090104 11:24:01< zookeeper> right. well, sounds good to me, but if it looks like you won't make it before the next release, let's put transparent versions of the current ones in for the release.
20090104 11:24:28< mordante> and on PPC the byte I used for alpha was not the alpha but a colour
20090104 11:24:36< Jetrel> zookeeper:  feh.  Okay.
20090104 11:24:44< mordante> so the whole thing did a wrong calculation on PPC
20090104 11:24:52< zookeeper> hrhm, should probably make a post on the art contrib forum and tell people to convert their UMC portraits if they want them not to look silly on the next releases.
20090104 11:26:20< boucman> Jetrel: you should really hunt for spriters on the forum, you won't be able to tackle the whole job on your own...
20090104 11:26:20< zookeeper> Jetrel, i think the point is to get rid of the old dialog style entirely (at least unless specifically invoked, maybe) for the next release, so a black box on the new dialogs will be more of an eyesore ;)
20090104 11:26:48< Jetrel> boucman:  there's not much left of the whole job.
20090104 11:27:05< Jetrel> Only about 7 merman units, and the naga myrmidon.
20090104 11:27:26< boucman> and all animations
20090104 11:27:40< boucman> finding someone to churn out animations is the hard part
20090104 11:28:18< Jetrel> boucman:  unfortunately, that is uniquely _my_ forte.
20090104 11:28:46< Jetrel> It's something I'm even better than neoriceisgood at.
20090104 11:29:13< boucman> Jetrel: huh ?
20090104 11:29:23< boucman> neo has never been good at animating :P
20090104 11:29:40< boucman> but I'm sure you could train a padawan to help you...
20090104 11:29:43< Jetrel> boucman:  that's not true.  He's actually quite good at it.
20090104 11:30:09< boucman> I'm thinking of the drake anims here... wasn't he the one who made them ?
20090104 11:30:09< Jetrel> boucman:  what he is, is -lazy- wrt to doing animations for wesnoth.
20090104 11:30:26< Jetrel> boucman:  no, that was mostly me, except for the melee animations.
20090104 11:30:36< boucman> long time ago, then
20090104 11:30:44< boucman> since only one limb moves :)
20090104 11:30:55< Jetrel> Most of them, he didn't animate at all.  I and zebulon provided them.
20090104 11:31:56< Jetrel> Don't get me wrong, I do have help.  Thespaceinvader, Eternal, urs, occasionally zookeeper, redeth, and although he's on wesbreak, turin as well.  (And also perhaps EEluminatus and quensul).
20090104 11:33:49< Jetrel> boucman:  honestly, as soon as I have base frames for another merman or so, I'm going to start committing them.  The current animations are negligible enough to be discarded until I have time to do real animations.
20090104 11:34:06< Jetrel> As for the naga, again, it'll be easy to make them.
20090104 11:36:08< Jetrel> Anyways, I have to go to bed.
20090104 11:36:20< mordante> night Jetrel 
20090104 11:49:19< CIA-52> mordante * r31943 /trunk/src/gui/widgets/ (listbox.cpp scrollbar_container.cpp scrollbar_container.hpp): 
20090104 11:49:19< CIA-52> Scroll a listbox with the arrow keys when needed.
20090104 11:49:19< CIA-52> When the arrow keys select an item outisde the visible area this item
20090104 11:49:19< CIA-52> will be scrolled inside the visible area.
20090104 11:49:25< CIA-52> mordante * r31944 /trunk/ (changelog src/gui/widgets/text.cpp): 
20090104 11:49:25< CIA-52> Let the backspace also delete the selection.
20090104 11:49:25< CIA-52> Baufo wondered why the backspace doesn't delete the selection, like the
20090104 11:49:27< CIA-52> delete key. Not sure why I implemented the current behaviour and tested
20090104 11:49:29< CIA-52> with various application, which all delete the selection on the
20090104 11:49:31< CIA-52> backspace. So also implemented that behaviour for the new widgets.
20090104 12:06:32-!- Mith_ [n=marco@78.14.235.168] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090104 12:08:13< Mith_> Hi.. i have some problem compiling with scons, it says to me that sdl is not installed but i know it is.. i can compile the stable branch without problems
20090104 12:09:08< Ivanovic> Mith_: hmm, our current maintainer for the scons recipe is not around
20090104 12:09:48< Ivanovic> Mith_: you should wait a little, i am confident that loonycyborg will turn up soon
20090104 12:09:56< mordante> do you use scons in the stable branch?
20090104 12:10:17< boucman> I don't think there is scons suppoort in 1.4
20090104 12:10:19< Mith_> no in the stable i use autogen..
20090104 12:10:21< Ivanovic> mordante: uhm, IIRC there is no scons recipe in the stable branch
20090104 12:10:51< mordante> I thought there was an initial implementation in the stable branch
20090104 12:10:55< Ivanovic> Mith_: could you do me the favor and check if cmake finds your libs?
20090104 12:11:37< Ivanovic> that is: just run "cmake PaTH/to/wesnoth" in some empty and new dir (to make cleaning up easier)
20090104 12:12:45< Mith_> it says the source directory does not exist /bfw/wesnoth/make
20090104 12:14:03< Mith_> i used "cmake make", it is correct?
20090104 12:14:12< Ivanovic> no, it is not
20090104 12:14:14< mordante> no cmake .
20090104 12:14:25< Ivanovic> cmake PATH/TO/WESNOTH/STUFF
20090104 12:14:44< Mith_> ok
20090104 12:14:46< Ivanovic> if you run the command right in the extracted tarball (you should not do it, this is dirty!): cmake .
20090104 12:15:36< Ivanovic> if you got wesnoth tarball extracted to ~/wesnoth-1.5.7/ you could just create a build dir with mkdir ~/wesnoth-build/ and then run those commands:
20090104 12:15:42< Ivanovic> cd ~/wesnoth-build/
20090104 12:15:48< Ivanovic> cmake ~/wesnoth-1.5.7/
20090104 12:16:51< Mith_> with cmake it works fine
20090104 12:16:58< Mith_> no lib errors
20090104 12:17:05-!- Baufo [n=thomas@62-47-129-141.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090104 12:20:21< Ivanovic> okay, so probably really something with the detection in scons
20090104 12:20:28< Ivanovic> i got no experience with scons, so i can't help here
20090104 12:20:46< Ivanovic> where do you have the libs in your system?
20090104 12:20:55< Ivanovic> probably scons has some form of log with the error in it
20090104 12:21:04< Ivanovic> might be good to paste this log at some pastesite
20090104 12:21:18< Ivanovic> like eg http://wesnoth.pastebin.com
20090104 12:24:20< CIA-52> mordante * r31945 /trunk/src/gui/widgets/ (5 files): 
20090104 12:24:20< CIA-52> Add a focus event send to parents of a widget.
20090104 12:24:20< CIA-52> This event allows parent containers and windows to react if the mouse is
20090104 12:24:20< CIA-52> pressed down inside it's area. This also works if the selected widget
20090104 12:24:20< CIA-52> itself is disabled.
20090104 12:24:30< CIA-52> mordante * r31946 /trunk/src/gui/dialogs/language_selection.cpp: 
20090104 12:24:30< CIA-52> Let the language list always have the focus.
20090104 12:24:30< CIA-52> Now you can directly use up or down to select a language.
20090104 12:24:49< Mith_> in the scons dir there is no log file
20090104 12:26:26-!- busfahrer [n=busfahre@unixboard/user/busfahrer] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090104 12:29:38< ilor_> Mith_: the scons log is in build/
20090104 12:31:32< Mith_> libs are in /usr/lib dir
20090104 12:31:48< Mith_> ok thx :)
20090104 12:36:59< Mith_> ok.. the problem is that in there is no conftest_5.o in the /build/sconf_temp dir
20090104 12:37:25< Mith_> there is only conftest_5.c
20090104 12:43:42< Mith_> I posted the log file of scons at http://wesnoth.pastebin.com
20090104 12:48:44-!- EdB [n=EdB@79.88.117.35] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090104 12:52:53< ilor_> Mith_: you should give us the link to your paste, not to the paste site
20090104 12:53:39< Ivanovic> http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m2fa485db
20090104 12:53:55< Ivanovic> ilor_: since he used the wesnoth subdomain, there are not this many posts and the last ones are shown on the left
20090104 12:53:56< Ivanovic> ;)
20090104 12:54:11< ilor_> Ivanovic: yeah, found that, but my advice is still sound
20090104 12:54:24< ilor_> anyway I've no idea what a "bad file description" error means
20090104 12:55:01< ilor_> Mith_: maybe try the usual, remove build/, run scons config=force
20090104 12:59:30< Mith_> using scons after removing build/ worked...
20090104 13:08:52< Ivanovic> mordante: looks like it is really unlikely that you will see my final pandora on fosdem: http://www.gp32x.com/board/index.php?showtopic=45970
20090104 13:09:03< Ivanovic> they will start mass production of the case on 15th january
20090104 13:09:45< Ivanovic> so with *lots* of luck i might get mine on fosdem, but somehow i think it is unlikely that a completely assembled (final) pandora is available then
20090104 13:10:01< Ivanovic> though maybe EvilDragon is there and can at least show off a prototype pandora
20090104 13:13:13< mordante> well the FOSDEM is about three weeks after the mass production starts... maybe try to convince EvilDragon to bring yours with him to the FOSDEM ;-)
20090104 13:13:32< mordante> then you can install Wesnoth at the FOSDEM ;-)
20090104 13:14:09< boucman> tell him you will ;)
20090104 13:14:24< boucman> if they can make a press release of it, they might be convinced ;)
20090104 13:15:15< ESR_> Sirp: ping?
20090104 13:15:24< Ivanovic> mordante: the mass production of the *case*
20090104 13:15:34< Ivanovic> mordante: do not forget that this does not mean it is assembled directly then
20090104 13:15:45< Ivanovic> you also need the keymat and the mk3 board
20090104 13:15:52< mordante> I know they have three weeks for that ;-)
20090104 13:16:07< Ivanovic> those have all to be shipped to the same place and be assembled and the nand has to be flashed
20090104 13:16:30< Ivanovic> and ED already said that one of the pandora devs has done a quick and dirty port of wesnoth
20090104 13:16:35< Ivanovic> as in "it runs on pandora"
20090104 13:16:49< Ivanovic> my guess is: 1.4.x with some really slight changes for rightclick
20090104 13:17:28< Ivanovic> i hope that ED comes to fosdem and that my pandora is ready by then, so that he can hand it over to me, if it is not, i hope that he has a "basically ready" prototype to show off a little
20090104 13:18:15< boucman> Ivanovic: did you ask them for the patch, so we might integrate it, or at leas see what we're missing to work out of the box ?
20090104 13:18:16< mordante> I also said I hope he'll hand it there to you ;-)
20090104 13:18:34< Ivanovic> boucman: yeah, i already told him that i welcome all patches
20090104 13:18:56< Ivanovic> boucman: i don't think much was needed and ED does not know exactly what was done and such
20090104 13:19:11< boucman> svn diff ;)
20090104 13:19:11< Ivanovic> he just knows that there is a wesnoth binary available for pandora
20090104 13:19:27< boucman> maybe they just compiled with tinygui
20090104 13:19:32< Ivanovic> hey, he has not ported it himself, he does probably not have the sources, ...
20090104 13:19:41< Ivanovic> unlikely, more likely it is just smallgui
20090104 13:19:47< Ivanovic> tinygui would be unusable on that screen
20090104 13:20:08< Ivanovic> since it is just a 4" screen and fonts get damn small when using 800x480
20090104 13:20:09< Ivanovic> ;)
20090104 13:20:29< Ivanovic> (and i added this smallgui stuff exactly for this resolution, to have it work in a rather nice way)
20090104 13:27:13-!- ilor_ [n=user@unaffiliated/ilor] has quit []
20090104 13:33:27 * Ivanovic thinks that YogiHH is correct with his mail regarding design matters
20090104 13:37:32< mordante> ESR_ are you sure that with autocad only the lisp interpreter is written in C?
20090104 13:37:55< mordante> since most functions can also be controlled with a C-API
20090104 13:39:05< mordante> I know quite familair with AutoLISP and AutoCAD ;-)
20090104 13:40:07< mordante> I'm *
20090104 13:43:32-!- kitty_ [n=kitty@e180221229.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090104 13:47:22< ESR_> mordante: Their LISP interpreter has an alien type facility.  It's impressively well done.
20090104 13:49:44< mordante> AutoCAD is one of the programs I love, very easy to customize and their engineers understood a lot about usability :-)
20090104 13:50:08< mordante> haven't used it much since version 14 so no idea whether it's still that great
20090104 13:57:21< Soliton> mordante: about the up/down arrow in the mp dialog. as boucman suggested leave the current behaviour and make tab focus on the next widget (and then up and down work as before).
20090104 13:58:05< mordante> Soliton ok, noted. I still want to wait what Sapient thinks.
20090104 13:59:14< Soliton> option 2 could work well too but it's a bit hacky and will be confusing whenever the text input field is not the uppermost widget.
20090104 14:00:36< mordante> currently option 2 is intended, but the code contains a bug which makes it behave like option 1
20090104 14:01:17< mordante> Ivanovic do you feel lucky?
20090104 14:05:17-!- kron4eg [n=kron4eg@mail.summa.md] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090104 14:09:16< boucman> quick question...
20090104 14:09:42< boucman> what is a reasonable variation for MP cost on various terrain, is it 1..4 1..6 ?
20090104 14:11:45< kron4eg> where I can find wesnoth multiplayer protocol specifications? I want to develop web-site, which will be integrated with wesnothd
20090104 14:11:51< Soliton> if the unit has 4MP max moves definitely 1..4. :-)
20090104 14:12:44< Soliton> kron4eg: http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/MultiplayerserverWML
20090104 14:13:02< zookeeper> i think 5MP cost is the highest on any mainline unit?
20090104 14:13:19< zookeeper> a merman in hills might be it, i'm not sure.
20090104 14:13:52< boucman> k, thx
20090104 14:13:54< Soliton> probably.
20090104 14:14:26< zookeeper> yeah, mermen in forest and hills and naga on mountains.
20090104 14:17:40< kitty_> zookeeper: just to keep me up-to-date of the background removal: the campaigns stll not done are: AOI, Liberty, NR, SoF, THoT and Two Brothers - right? 
20090104 14:17:40< kitty_> i'll do SoF, shall i ask spaceinvader for transparent ones for tHoT?
20090104 14:19:16-!- ivan_i [n=chatzill@ppp91-76-32-49.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090104 14:20:07< zookeeper> kitty_, yes, except that i'll handle liberty
20090104 14:20:19< kitty_> ok
20090104 14:20:31< zookeeper> and yes please do SoF, i tried myself but found out they had all those little shiney bits too which i can't really handle
20090104 14:20:43< zookeeper> yeah, asking TSI for those might be a good idea
20090104 14:21:16< kitty_> yeah, that are the bits jetryl and i were complaining about yesterday... and i'll ask him
20090104 14:21:52< zookeeper> erlornas' portrait in AOI is an old kalenz portrait by jetryl, i'll ask him if he can give me the old original big one
20090104 14:22:25< kitty_> then we'll have just three campaigns missing
20090104 14:22:48< zookeeper> yep. this went much faster than i thought ;)
20090104 14:23:02< kitty_> when will the next release be?
20090104 14:23:56< zookeeper> no idea. hopefully sometime rather soon.
20090104 14:24:16< Ivanovic> kitty_: when do you want to see it?
20090104 14:24:31< Ivanovic> somehow i'd say: give me at least one more week
20090104 14:24:36< Ivanovic> but beside this: name a date!
20090104 14:24:48< kitty_> i was just wondering if we will manage to remove all backgrounds till the release
20090104 14:24:53< Ivanovic> kitty_: and the portraits in Two Brothers should be rather quick to convert since there are not this many
20090104 14:25:17< Ivanovic> and: no idea if the portraits we got in mainline might not already be enough and even better than those custom ones...
20090104 14:25:17< Ivanovic> ;)
20090104 14:25:43< kitty_> yeah, only NR has quite a lot of tricky ones left
20090104 14:26:14< kitty_> the custom ones still add a lot of flavour i don't wnt to miss ;)
20090104 14:30:11< zookeeper> the release date depends on when mordante will have the rest of all the necessary stuff in too
20090104 14:30:25< zookeeper> at least the backwards compatibility with old single unit portrait defs
20090104 14:32:20< mordante> maybe we can ask West for larger images with a transparent background
20090104 14:32:36< mordante> he did those images after all
20090104 14:32:41< kitty_> which campain did he do?
20090104 14:33:05< zookeeper> west? are you sure?
20090104 14:33:07< mordante> Two Brothers
20090104 14:33:16< zookeeper> ah, sure. yeah
20090104 14:33:47< mordante> my screen was still scrolled up a bit ;-)
20090104 14:33:51< kitty_> this would only be the brothers themselves, or did he more?
20090104 14:34:06< mordante> IIRC only the brothers
20090104 14:34:19< kitty_> ok thanks for the info, i ask him
20090104 14:35:33< mordante> Ivanovic or boucman it would be nice if one of you can test this patch http://paste.debian.net/25140 it should enable the mousewheel
20090104 14:38:53< kitty_> tsi has no transparent ones of the tHoT portraits :(, but he'll do them himself.:)
20090104 14:39:50< mordante> kitty_ after you left yesterday we talked a bit more about the dialogs and kind of decide that the dialog can grow in height over the entire screen minus the menu bar 
20090104 14:40:20< kitty_> i read that in the protocol - sounds good to me
20090104 14:40:57< mordante> oke didn't know you read it, then I can stop typing further :-)
20090104 14:41:20-!- stikonas [n=and@ctv-79-132-188-113.vinita.lt] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090104 14:41:42< kitty_> not always, but i assumed that you would have talked some more ;)
20090104 14:42:11< mordante> :-)
20090104 14:43:38< mordante> I'm afk now
20090104 15:00:43< kitty_> zookeeper: SoF is done, i upload them on the forum now. 35 min for 5 :P
20090104 15:01:07< boucman> that's apretty good average...
20090104 15:01:19< kitty_> must. get. faster.
20090104 15:01:36< boucman> mordante: compiling (not sure if i'll have time to test, and if yes, not sure what dialog to test it with...
20090104 15:06:11-!- busfahrer [n=busfahre@unixboard/user/busfahrer] has quit ["leaving"]
20090104 15:08:49< kitty_> so i'll start NR now - does anybody know who did those portraits? they look do diverse...
20090104 15:09:04< boucman> mordante being afk, what dialog in trunk use the new widget (testing the scrolling as we speak
20090104 15:10:28< boucman> I tested on the add-on menu, and it scrolled ok, not sure if it's the new gui, though...
20090104 15:10:40< boucman> (that was for mordante when he rereads the logs :) )
20090104 15:15:54< zookeeper> kitty_, cool
20090104 15:16:52< zookeeper> kitty_, there's a NR portraits thread somewhere, i bet you can find it by searching
20090104 15:17:11< zookeeper> ah, here it is: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=8848
20090104 15:17:24< mordante> boucman the language selection
20090104 15:17:28< kitty_> ijust take the ones from trunk. i just finiehed elenia - i can't believe that i just spent my time cleaning up a half nude, anatomical impossible elven girl  :x 
20090104 15:17:30< boucman> k, testing
20090104 15:17:50< zookeeper> it's that xandar86 guy...you can probably reach him via his links in his signature if you really want to.
20090104 15:17:53< mordante> whould work when your mouse is over the listbox
20090104 15:17:58< mordante> should*
20090104 15:18:04< ESR_> kitty_: I'm the NR maintainer/coauthor, so if you have any questions about the characters ask me.
20090104 15:18:08< boucman> well, it might work, but I'm not sure :)
20090104 15:18:26< boucman> I have very few locals installed, so most choices are greyed out
20090104 15:18:36< kitty_> ESR_ no questions, just wanted to know if anybody has bigger versions by chance
20090104 15:18:39< mordante> yes but it should still scroll the box
20090104 15:18:47< boucman> however scrolling with the wheel makes the scrollbar move, so it might work :)
20090104 15:19:00< mordante> that's what's intended
20090104 15:19:03< boucman> but no, the content itself does not scroll
20090104 15:19:08< ESR_> kitty_: Wait, I'll look in the resources repo.
20090104 15:19:33< boucman> (which might be normal, since I have nothing selectable in the bottom half, I can't go there with the arrow keys either)
20090104 15:19:38 * mordante hits his head against the wall, stupid error
20090104 15:19:49< kitty_> looks like the xandar guy only did the lines and somebody else coloured
20090104 15:20:25< zookeeper> i think jetryl did at least some of them
20090104 15:20:50< kitty_> anyways, i'll just do them
20090104 15:21:06< mordante> boucman in gui/widgets/scrollbar_handler.cpp in the patch 
20090104 15:21:29< mordante> before the handled = true should be scrollbar_moved(); (all 4 places)
20090104 15:22:21< boucman> I don't have a file scrollbar_handler
20090104 15:22:23< CIA-52> zookeeper * r31947 /trunk/data/campaigns/Sceptre_of_Fire/images/portraits/ (7 files): Backgroundless portraits for SoF.
20090104 15:22:27< boucman> is it scrollbar_container ?
20090104 15:22:34< mordante> yes sorry
20090104 15:23:23< ESR_> kitty_: Nothing in the resources repo, sorry.
20090104 15:23:29< boucman> scrollbar_moved instead of the vertical_scrollbar_->...
20090104 15:23:32< boucman> or after ?
20090104 15:23:36< kitty_> ESR_ thanks for looking
20090104 15:23:45< mordante> after
20090104 15:24:03< mordante> that call tells the engine that the scrollbar did move and it should update it's content
20090104 15:24:08< boucman> compiling
20090104 15:24:38 * ESR_ is eager to see what the new NR portraits will look like.
20090104 15:25:36< kitty_> ESR_ new? just background removal, nothing more...
20090104 15:26:01< ESR_> kitty_: Ah, OK.
20090104 15:26:36< kitty_> sorry, i'm not that fast... still IftU and generic mainline tec. 
20090104 15:27:28< ESR_> Um, nothing against ShadowMaster, but why give IftU such a priority?
20090104 15:29:19< kitty_> because i really, really like the campain and i finish the projects i have once started. it's kind of a fault in character ;)
20090104 15:29:39< ESR_> Can't argue with that.
20090104 15:30:56< ESR_> Folklore note: on this channel, the opposite of slapping someone with a fish is handing them a cookie.
20090104 15:31:06 * ESR_ hands kitty a cookie.
20090104 15:31:12< boucman> mordante: it works, I got to go Ileave the commit to you
20090104 15:31:18< kitty_> mmh - cookies! what flavour?
20090104 15:31:20< mordante> ok thanks :-)
20090104 15:31:46< ESR_> kitty_: That, oddly, has never been specified :-)
20090104 15:32:04< ESR_> Do you have a preference?
20090104 15:32:14< kitty_> chocolate, of course
20090104 15:33:10-!- fendrin_ [n=fabi@e176251131.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090104 15:33:40< ESR_> Ah, chocolate is too aweet for me.  I like peanut-butter cookies. Perhaps you don't have those in Germany, I have a vague impression there an American thing.  
20090104 15:33:49< ESR_> s/aweet/sweet/
20090104 15:34:05< ESR_> s/there/they're/
20090104 15:35:41< kitty_> ESR_ we have peanut cookies too (but strangely the packaging always has an american flag on it...), but i'm speaking of dark chocolate cookies with even more dark chocolate pieces inside, those don't have to be too sweet... 
20090104 15:36:14< ESR_> kitty_: Ah.  Dark chocolate.  I like dark chocolate.
20090104 15:37:42< kitty_> 2 done, 13 to go  :( 
20090104 15:39:51< ESR_> I've never had a store-bought peanut-butter cookie that was any good, alas.  They tend to skimp on the shortening and add way too much sugar. 
20090104 15:41:10< ESR_> The traditional way to make them in the U.S. produces a large, chewy cookie that tastes strongly of peanuts and not much of sugar, but you pretty much only get that from home-baking them.
20090104 15:42:23< kitty_> ESR_ sounds good! we made chocolate cookies with peanut butter and bits for christmas - does that count?
20090104 15:42:46< ESR_> No, but it sounds pretty tasty anyway.
20090104 15:42:51< ESR_> :-)
20090104 15:44:13< ESR_> Do Germans have an equivalent of the U.S. raisin cookie? It's like a little raisin turnover made with sweet cookie dough - strongly associated with our holiday season.
20090104 15:47:43< ESR_> I think I know why German peanut-butter cookies have an American flag on them -- on-line sources suggest they originated in the U.S. in the 1930s as a way to market peanut butter.
20090104 15:47:50< kitty_> not as far as i know, we mainly make flat butter cookies and the rest is family specific, i think. we make macaroons, fruitcake and basler läckerli
20090104 15:48:29< kitty_> and peanut butter isn't very common to use over here generally
20090104 15:50:21< kitty_> and i officially hate the person who coloured the NR portraits - why don't they have a flat black background? i have to erase everything by hand... would that be an appropriate situation to throw a fish?
20090104 15:50:51< ESR_> Hm. In the U.S. we have a wide variety of other kinds.  One of the very traditional ones is a cookie make with oatmeal and raisin (not the same as the turnover-like raisin cookie).
20090104 15:51:13< ESR_> Yes, vert appropriaye to throw a fish.  If you can find the right target :-)
20090104 15:51:32< ESR_> s/vert appropriaye/very appropriate/
20090104 15:56:05< kitty_> ha! it seems a couple of persons are blameworthy - at least redeth and elazar. can i have two fishes?
20090104 15:56:20-!- loonycyborg [n=sergey@79.139.246.35] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090104 15:56:24 * ESR_ carefully hands kitty two fishes
20090104 15:57:51< kitty_> irc newbie question: how do i put that dot in front of my name to describe what i do?
20090104 16:02:26 * loonycyborg isn't sure what you mean
20090104 16:03:06< Ivanovic> re
20090104 16:03:13< Ivanovic> loonycyborg: please read todays irclog
20090104 16:03:19< Ivanovic> Mith_ has problems with building scons
20090104 16:03:27< Ivanovic> or was this already solved?
20090104 16:03:35< Ivanovic> (this happens when being afk for a while)
20090104 16:03:44< kitty_> loonycyborg: exactly what you did with your last post? the "loonycyborg isn't sure what you mean" thingie, but nevermind...
20090104 16:03:54< stikonas> kitty_: "/me text"
20090104 16:04:08< kitty_> thank you stikonas!
20090104 16:04:33 * kitty_ throws fishes at redeth and elazar!
20090104 16:04:49< Ivanovic> kitty_: that is wrong, you do not through them
20090104 16:04:51< loonycyborg> Mith_: the log is in build/config.log
20090104 16:04:54< Ivanovic> you have to hold them while slapping
20090104 16:05:12< Ivanovic> main benefit: you can slap several times with less fishes
20090104 16:05:14< Ivanovic> ;)
20090104 16:05:18< kitty_> but they aren't here - how shall i reach them?
20090104 16:05:37< kitty_> but i'll follow the rules:
20090104 16:05:45< loonycyborg> Mith_: You'll need to do "scons --config=force" to get rid of that spurious failures.
20090104 16:05:56 * kitty_ slaps rdeth and elazar with the fish
20090104 16:07:14< loonycyborg> Ivanovic: His problem was already solved :)
20090104 16:07:31< loonycyborg> (Stupid huge irc logs)
20090104 16:09:20< Ivanovic> okay
20090104 16:21:35< CIA-52> mordante * r31948 /trunk/ (6 files in 2 dirs): 
20090104 16:21:35< CIA-52> Enabled listbox scrolling with a mouse wheel.
20090104 16:21:35< CIA-52> Now it's possible to scroll in a listbox with the scrollwheel of a
20090104 16:21:35< CIA-52> mouse. Thanks to boucman for testing.
20090104 16:23:16 * mordante is ready with listboxes for now, goes back to the dialogs
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20090104 16:28:21< CIA-52> ivanovic * r31949 /trunk/po/ (wesnoth/it.po wesnoth-lib/it.po wesnoth-multiplayer/it.po): updated Italian translation
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20090104 16:31:17< Ivanovic> mordante: i was scrolling a while in the lang selection dialog via mouse wheel
20090104 16:31:25< Ivanovic> this in general works rather nicely, *but*
20090104 16:31:27< Ivanovic> wesnoth-svn: gui/widgets/window.cpp:577: virtual void gui2::twindow::do_show_tooltip(const gui2::tpoint&, const t_string&): Zusicherung >>widget<< nicht erf?llt.
20090104 16:31:28< Ivanovic> Abgebrochen
20090104 16:31:52< mordante> hmm yes the tooltips are still a bit borked
20090104 16:33:44< Ivanovic> no idea where the tooltip could have come from in the lang dialog
20090104 16:33:56< Ivanovic> and i got no clean way to reproduce, though i just had it again
20090104 16:34:09< mordante> they're still enabled due to test code
20090104 16:34:31< mordante> but they that code still needs a cleanup
20090104 16:35:42< Ivanovic> http://imagebin.org/35008
20090104 16:35:45< Ivanovic> another problem
20090104 16:36:01< Ivanovic> i scrolled down via scroll wheel, after about one sec the part shown jumped up again
20090104 16:36:08< Ivanovic> *but* have a look at the scrollbar...
20090104 16:36:50< mordante> I've seen the jumping as well, but also seems connected to the tooltips
20090104 16:37:03< Ivanovic> in general the list seems to jump up every now and then...
20090104 16:37:13< Ivanovic> okay
20090104 16:37:23< mordante> I cleaned up most code the last weeks only the tooltips and the minimap are not done yet
20090104 16:37:30< Ivanovic> :)
20090104 16:37:38< Ivanovic> just wanted to be sure that it is part of "known issues"
20090104 16:37:42< mordante> (the minimap is only used with --new-widgets so no production code)
20090104 16:37:54< mordante> and I'm happy with the feedback :-)
20090104 16:38:21< kitty_> zookeeper: i've done and posted 9 of the 15 NR portraits now. my patience is gone for now - if anybody else would finish the rest i'm happy, otherwise i'll do them somewhen next week.
20090104 16:38:38< zookeeper> kitty_, sure, no problem
20090104 16:38:46< Ivanovic> mordante: and soon i will be a great testcase regarding "how does the gui scale from low to really high res"
20090104 16:38:52< zookeeper> kitty_, it's not a disaster if it takes longer than that anyway.
20090104 16:39:13< zookeeper> not a lot of people play NR, i think ;)
20090104 16:39:14< Ivanovic> (since i can go from 800x480 to 1920x1200 which should be a nice range for testing "scalability")
20090104 16:39:30< kitty_> zookeeper: they are just evil - jpg artifacts everywhere... but i still think we can make it in time :)
20090104 16:39:48 * Ivanovic gives kitty_ a hug, she really deserves it
20090104 16:39:59< kitty_> :)
20090104 16:40:02< ivan_i> I tried this and get:
20090104 16:40:04< ivan_i>  src/gui/widgets/window.cpp:579: virtual void gui2::twindow::do_show_tooltip(const gui2::tpoint&, const t_string&): Assertion `widget' failed.
20090104 16:40:05< ivan_i> Aborted
20090104 16:40:13< mordante> Ivanovic yes it will
20090104 16:40:29< mordante> :-)
20090104 16:40:55< ivan_i> It may be merge conflict on my side though not sure yet
20090104 16:40:58< mordante> ivan_i yes the tooltips are really broken and should be fixed or disabled before the next release
20090104 16:41:59 * Ivanovic votes for the first
20090104 16:42:00< Ivanovic> ;)
20090104 16:42:08< ivan_i> It works when I use it without --new-wdigets
20090104 16:42:48< ivan_i> scroll wheel works fine
20090104 16:43:42< mordante> Ivanovic have a canister of spare time for me, or a time machine
20090104 16:43:47< ivan_i> no, aborted again :)
20090104 16:43:58< mordante> I also settle for a cloning device ;-)
20090104 16:44:00< loonycyborg> mordante: Thanks for making scrollwheel work again btw :)
20090104 16:44:10< mordante> you're welcome
20090104 16:45:47< loonycyborg> (Language dialog was really annoying without scroll :) )
20090104 16:46:30 * ivan_i agrees with loonycyborg and thanks mordante for his great work
20090104 16:46:34 * mordante doesn't use a scroll mouse so never noticed
20090104 16:46:55< mordante> guess why the ui sounds haven't been implemented yet ;-)
20090104 16:47:06< mordante> ivan_i you're welcome
20090104 16:47:31 * crimson_penguin uses a multi-touch trackpad with 2-finger scrolling :)
20090104 16:48:24< CIA-52> okyada * r31950 /branches/1.4/ (5 files in 5 dirs): updated Japanese translation (contributions from http://wikiwiki.jp/wesnoth/)
20090104 16:49:06< mordante> well if it emulates a scrollwheel it should work as well
20090104 16:49:11< crimson_penguin> yeah, it does
20090104 16:49:23< crimson_penguin> I actually like it better than a scroll wheel; more precise
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20090104 17:00:24< CIA-52> zookeeper * r31951 /trunk/data/campaigns/The_South_Guard/images/portraits/ (9 files): Removed backgrounds from most TSG portraits, the ones requiring a bit more redrawing are still left.
20090104 17:02:35-!- kitty_ [n=kitty@e180221229.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit []
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20090104 17:13:58< CIA-52> okyada * r31952 /trunk/ (5 files in 5 dirs): updated Japanese translation (contributions from http://wikiwiki.jp/wesnoth/)
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20090104 17:34:47< CIA-52> ivanovic * r31953 /trunk/po/ (14 files in 14 dirs): 
20090104 17:34:47< CIA-52> really port over files for Japanese from branches/1.4
20090104 17:34:47< CIA-52> this is a 1:1 copy of the 1.4 files, just merged against the current trunk pot files
20090104 17:37:34< mordante> Ivanovic when do you plan the next dev release?
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20090104 17:39:51< Ivanovic> mordante: you at least got one more week
20090104 17:39:52< Ivanovic> ;)
20090104 17:39:58< Ivanovic> but then: tell me when you are ready
20090104 17:40:40< mordante> I'll be quite busy next week so not sure how much hacking time I have ;-)
20090104 17:41:32< Ivanovic> like i said: earliest time possible is next week
20090104 17:41:40< Ivanovic> s/next week/next weekend
20090104 17:41:45< Ivanovic> more likely a little later than that
20090104 17:43:36< mordante> ok, I'll keep you informed, at least I managed to do a lot this weeked :-)
20090104 17:46:32< mordante> off hunting for some food now ;-)
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20090104 18:51:46< CIA-52> soliton * r31954 /branches/1.4/src/server/metrics.cpp: 
20090104 18:51:46< CIA-52> display the number of games not of game termination types
20090104 18:51:46< CIA-52> (cherry picked from commit 069b25f5827e3d3e852aa5c69656b4ad27f3340b)
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20090104 19:23:24< Sapient> yo
20090104 19:23:30< mordante> hi Sapient 
20090104 19:23:33< Sirp_> hi Sapient 
20090104 19:23:36< Sapient> hey there mordante
20090104 19:23:38< Sapient> yo Sirp
20090104 19:23:41< mordante> Sapient you saw my mail to the ml?
20090104 19:23:44< Sapient> yes
20090104 19:24:02< Sapient> I didn't necessarily like any of the choices you gave us either ;)
20090104 19:24:17< mordante> Soliton and boucman like the current behaviour, but I assume you also have an opinion 
20090104 19:24:37< mordante> if you know another solution I'd like to hear it
20090104 19:24:48< mordante> these are the solutions I could think of ;-)
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20090104 19:25:17< Sapient> first of all, I usually go with what Soliton says because he plays way more than the rest of us ;)
20090104 19:25:57< Sapient> secondly, the most important thing to keep in mind for this discussion is Usability
20090104 19:26:16< mordante> well I know you like the keyboard chaining
20090104 19:26:30< mordante> and I never new about it until you told me ;-)
20090104 19:26:31< Soliton> i had the additional constraint that tab switches widgets, btw.
20090104 19:26:39< Sapient> moving the menu item up and down is a far more fundamental task than browsing the textbox history
20090104 19:27:05< Sapient> and fundamental tasks should be given priority
20090104 19:27:20< mordante> Soliton yes but that's something I already wanted to do, but low on my priority list just like more hotkeys in dialogs
20090104 19:27:52< CIA-52> ivanovic * r31955 /trunk/po/wesnoth-tsg/it.po: updated Italian translation
20090104 19:28:05< Soliton> one could also reverse it and make tab and shift+tab go through the nick history.
20090104 19:28:29< Soliton> seems less consistent though.
20090104 19:28:33< Sapient> so my preference would be that the scrollable menu items get the up and down events by default when the dialog is first displayed
20090104 19:28:51< mordante> afaik all gui toolkits use tab to switch focus
20090104 19:29:33< Sapient> a lot of games don't use standard gui toolkits
20090104 19:30:02< Sapient> for example, Temple of Elemental Evil
20090104 19:30:14< Sapient> it had some cool circular menus
20090104 19:30:34< mordante> true but I think most users expect the tab to switch focus
20090104 19:30:36< Soliton> adhering to standard UI conventions is still a good idea.
20090104 19:31:24< mordante> circular menus sound rather nice :-)
20090104 19:31:24< Sapient> right, if we use tab to change widget focus then we can't use it for nick completion, though
20090104 19:31:27< Sapient> or maybe
20090104 19:31:49< loonycyborg> NWN has circular menus too IIRC :)
20090104 19:31:56< Sapient> mordante: yes, same as NWN I think
20090104 19:32:31< mordante> didn't play either of them
20090104 19:32:47< mordante> do we already do tab nick completion?
20090104 19:32:51< Soliton> yes.
20090104 19:33:06< mordante> maybe I should play a bit more MP ;-)
20090104 19:33:39< Sapient> I am definitely a fan of sending unhandled events of the focused widget to the optimal unfocused widget
20090104 19:33:56< Sapient> since it saves some clicking around and confusion and just works
20090104 19:34:03< mordante> Soliton then your idea of using tab to go through the list suddenly sounds much better
20090104 19:34:34< mordante> Sapient me too, I think it's a nice feature :-)
20090104 19:35:33< Sapient> but my primary disagreement is that I think the scrollable menu items must get the up and down events by default when the dialog is first displayed, regardless of the focus switching or key modding strategy
20090104 19:36:41< mordante> which requires the chaining and the arrows not to work on the history
20090104 19:37:05< Sapient> no...
20090104 19:37:18< Sapient> arrows can work on the history too if that is desired
20090104 19:37:44< Soliton> i think he just means to focus on the first button by default and not the input field.
20090104 19:38:20< Sapient> there are a couple of options... by explicitly focusing on the text widget, or by Shift/Alt, you can use arrows for text input history
20090104 19:39:52< Sapient> if you want to be generous, you could give it both, and any combination of Ctrl+arrow, Shift+arrow, Alt+arrow
20090104 19:40:14< Sapient> or another key entirely
20090104 19:40:50< mordante> I rather reserve the shift since we use it often to speed things up and maybe I want to allow shift arrow in the listbox
20090104 19:41:19< Sapient> that's an interesting idea
20090104 19:41:42< Sapient> shift+arrow could pass arrow to the next priority unfocused widget
20090104 19:41:44< mordante> but I think the tab might be a nice option, I can't use it for shifting focus since it's already captured in some widgets
20090104 19:42:19< mordante> I was more thinking about shift arrow in a listbox
20090104 19:42:42< Sapient> ok, well I already stated the one thing I care about
20090104 19:42:44< mordante> but maybe alt-arrow for switching widgets
20090104 19:43:02< Sapient> but you can choose for yourself ;)
20090104 19:43:14< mordante> :-)
20090104 19:43:50< Sapient> essential tasks should be easier to accomplish
20090104 19:44:35< Sapient> I think that's a trustworthy rule ;)
20090104 19:45:22< mordante> yes it all boils down to usability 
20090104 19:48:39< boucman> ESR_: around ?
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20090104 20:38:15< Shadow_Master> Internetz not mah friend today.
20090104 20:44:02< Shadow_Master> kitty_: your work is awesome (but you already know that)
20090104 20:44:19< Shadow_Master> it is most easily appreciated now that there is no 205x205 on black  constraint.
20090104 20:44:38< kitty_> Shadow_Master: ??? i'm just erasing stuff? 
20090104 20:45:00< Shadow_Master> "erasing"?
20090104 20:45:09< Shadow_Master> I mean the original series of elvish portraits
20090104 20:46:21< kitty_> oh, misundeerstanding - but you already knew the elves, didn't you? i thought you were talking about the current background removal
20090104 20:46:28< Shadow_Master> nope
20090104 20:48:51< Shadow_Master> um...   
20090104 20:49:59< kitty_> whatever :)
20090104 20:52:38< Shadow_Master> mordante: any idea how I can "delete" a git commit before dcommit'ing so that I do not need to go through the rebase?
20090104 20:53:07< Shadow_Master> I accidentally commited something from my other laptop and now I got a conflict here that does not let me commit a more urgent reivision.
20090104 20:53:45-!- Netsplit kubrick.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: zookeeper, wesbot, Tigge, ettin, Rhonda, IRSeekBot3, fendrin, Jetrel, Ivanovic, Soliton,  (+5 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them)
20090104 20:53:53< Shadow_Master> ffsand well, I don't have the bandwidth for rebasing right now :S
20090104 20:53:59< Shadow_Master> oh noes.
20090104 20:54:36-!- Netsplit over, joins: fendrin, Elvish_Pillage2, crimson_penguin, zookeeper, ettin, Ivanovic, AI0867, Rhonda, Soliton, wesbot (+5 more)
20090104 20:55:20< Shadow_Master> mordante: I assume yo didn't read me.
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20090104 20:56:24< Soliton> is the commit the most recent?
20090104 20:56:34< Shadow_Master> no.
20090104 20:56:41< loonycyborg> Shadow_Master: git reset can erase commits.
20090104 20:56:54< loonycyborg> If it's what you want..
20090104 20:57:14< Soliton> git rebase -i HEAD^^^ or so
20090104 20:58:11< Soliton> (it tells you what to do.)
20090104 21:00:28 * Shadow_Master vs. flaky wlan, round 2
20090104 21:02:28< Shadow_Master> aaargh. someone decided to change about.cfg today .
20090104 21:02:28< Shadow_Master> -
20090104 21:08:45< Rhonda> hah
20090104 21:09:00< Rhonda> boucman: I think I might have fixed the bug problem you mentioned with wesbot.
20090104 21:09:10< boucman> cool
20090104 21:09:14< boucman> what was the matter ?
20090104 21:09:24< Shadow_Master> I guess it'd be easier to ask Ivanovic to update it for me right now.
20090104 21:09:31< Rhonda> wesbot: bug 12804
20090104 21:09:31< wesbot> Bug #12804  Assigned to: None  Status: Invalid  Priority: 5 - Normal
20090104 21:09:34< wesbot> Summary: assertion when starting the editor
20090104 21:09:37< wesbot> Original submission: 
20090104 21:09:40< wesbot> URL: https://gna.org/bugs/?12804
20090104 21:09:43< Rhonda> boucman: When the Original Submission was empty it didn't match.
20090104 21:09:55< Rhonda> Though not sure if that was your problem, it was mine at least.
20090104 21:10:26< Rhonda> So if you notice any such problems, pretty please hand me the bug numbers (or whatever) required to reproduce it and I'll check.
20090104 21:12:22< boucman> k
20090104 21:13:02< kitty_> zookeeper: if you're around: i just finished NR and added them to the forum post. So only AOI (jetryl), HttT (jetryl), THoT (tsi), Two brothers (hopefully west) are left. shall i add the bits to the liberty portaits that go over the edge or will you do that yourself? 
20090104 21:13:23< wesbot> busfahrer: nosy guy ...
20090104 21:13:29< busfahrer> :-D
20090104 21:13:34< Shadow_Master> ??
20090104 21:15:18< zookeeper> kitty_, depends on whether this is good enough: http://imagebin.org/35029
20090104 21:15:29< zookeeper> the right pauldron is rather messy as you can see
20090104 21:15:42< kitty_> zookeeper: looks fine to me :)
20090104 21:15:59< Rrenys> left, you mean?
20090104 21:16:15< zookeeper> left or right, whichever you prefer
20090104 21:16:25< kitty_> his left,  the viewers right...
20090104 21:16:45< zookeeper> if that one's good enough, then i don't need help with them, i got the rest pretty much sorted out
20090104 21:16:54< kitty_> woho!
20090104 21:18:03< kitty_> and if you commit all those background removed portraits could you also commit my troll whelp? i got jet's ok yesterday. http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=23420&start=15
20090104 21:19:03< zookeeper> hmm, yeah
20090104 21:19:54< zookeeper> i'm not exactly sure whether i should commit both the small and big now. i've delayed committing the drake clasher for the same reason.
20090104 21:20:13< kitty_> ok, who knows that?
20090104 21:20:24< kitty_> or at least should know it?
20090104 21:20:35< zookeeper> i don't think it would make much sense at all to keep both sizes in the long run, if we need a smaller image for the help menu or something then that should be downscaled by the game.
20090104 21:20:43< boucman> zookeeper: I think the old portrait is still used in help, but only mordante would know for sure
20090104 21:22:26-!- EdB [n=EdB@79.88.117.35] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"]
20090104 21:22:52< Shadow_Master> kitty_: "jet's ok" ? But... you are the portrait director! :)
20090104 21:23:47< CIA-52> ivanovic * r31956 /trunk/ (data/core/about.cfg players_changelog po/wesnoth-aoi/es.po): updated Spanish translations and credits
20090104 21:24:09< kitty_> Shadow_Master: but it feels strange to decide about my own stuff... and since there was quite a bit of discussion i wanted to be on the safe side. ok, i'm a coward.
20090104 21:24:12< boucman> I think kitty_ still wants someone else's ok before comitting her own work
20090104 21:24:17< Shadow_Master> ah thanks a lot Ivanovic, I am still stuck in the net
20090104 21:24:24< boucman> kitty_: makes sense
20090104 21:24:41< CIA-52> zookeeper * r31957 /trunk/data/campaigns/Liberty/images/portraits/ (6 files): Backgroundless portraits for Liberty.
20090104 21:24:45< Shadow_Master> kitty_: I think I know what you mean
20090104 21:24:51< Ivanovic> Shadow_Master: and i added the translator to the forum group "translators"
20090104 21:24:52< boucman> you don't have to, but if you feel like having someone else's ok, jet's the man
20090104 21:24:57< Shadow_Master> better to be on the safe side
20090104 21:25:16< kitty_> i'm glad you understand :)
20090104 21:25:34< Shadow_Master> Ivnthanks. is g.w.o updated immediately btw? or do I have to wait for a "nightly" update?
20090104 21:25:56< Shadow_Master> Ivanovic ^
20090104 21:26:09< Ivanovic> g.w.o is updated every 30mins
20090104 21:26:19< Shadow_Master> k
20090104 21:29:50< Shadow_Master> boucman: regarding wercator, can't the author make themself a SF.net project or something?
20090104 21:30:06< boucman> we could put it on a wesnoth branch too
20090104 21:30:12< Shadow_Master> otherwise it might fit into the wesnoth-umc-dev guidelines
20090104 21:30:14< boucman> we'd have to discuss that with quensul
20090104 21:30:52< Shadow_Master> I mean, it's targetted to UMC, can be considered a "essential resource" if we pretend it to be so... :)
20090104 21:31:30< Shadow_Master> but it would not be blessed by us admins since we on't know what's going on there, that's why I suggest that they make their own hosting project
20090104 21:31:57< Soliton> it could just go under utils/.
20090104 21:32:19< zookeeper> lol. when i capture the keep in battle for zocthanol isle and the mermen show up, they have one side 2 "trapped merman" with them who i can attack :P
20090104 21:32:37< Soliton> or maybe data/tools.
20090104 21:34:12< boucman> Shadow_Master: we already have parts of wesnoth related website in main, and wercator deserve mainline status, but I agree with what you say
20090104 21:35:37< Shadow_Master> it hasn't receeeeived any updatees for a year either I think?
20090104 21:35:44< Shadow_Master> eek.
20090104 21:39:05< boucman> I thought there had been some news reccently...
20090104 21:45:39< mordante> Shadow_Master I was away ;-) still need helpwith git?
20090104 21:45:47< CIA-52> zookeeper * r31958 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/scenarios/11_Battle_for_Zocthanol_Isle.cfg: Fixed a filtering problem.
20090104 21:46:18< mordante> boucman yes the help hasn't been converted adn not sure whether it can be done before 1.6, I fear not :-(
20090104 21:47:58< zookeeper> hmh?
20090104 21:48:33< kitty_> mordante: since you're here again - we were just asking ourselves if we still have to commit two versions of new portraits or if the big transparent one is enough... 
20090104 21:49:18< mordante> yes I read that, but I'm not entirely sure what I can do about the help before 1.6
20090104 21:49:31< mordante> I'd rather keep them in until I'm sure
20090104 21:50:38< kitty_> so it has to be both for now but in the long run you want to get rid of the little ones?
20090104 21:51:03< zookeeper> just displaying the new big ones in help seems to work fine on 1024x768
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20090104 21:51:25< zookeeper> and on lower resolutions it wouldn't even break anything AFAICT, just maybe look a little bit silly
20090104 21:51:39< mordante> yes I think we can also scale them in the help for smaller screens and show them in their full glory on bigger screens
20090104 21:54:34< boucman> would that be doable for 1.6 ?
20090104 21:54:42 * zookeeper blinks
20090104 21:54:51< zookeeper> nym has 281/150 XP. hmh.
20090104 21:55:10< mordante> I've to see, scaling them all to 205 should be doable I think improving further will be hard
20090104 21:55:41< mordante> the help uses a treeview widget, which I haven't created in the new widgets yet
20090104 21:59:26< CIA-52> zookeeper * r31959 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/units/Nym.cfg: Enabled the default AMLA for Nym.
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20090104 22:02:10< zookeeper> boucman, did you catch my suggestion about having multiple pairs of x,y frame offset params?
20090104 22:02:49< boucman> zookeeper: I read that line, but I didn't really understand, could you explain better ?
20090104 22:03:09< zookeeper> ok
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20090104 22:03:55-!- kitty_ is now known as Kitty1
20090104 22:05:19< zookeeper> i need to offset some frames with two pairs of coordinates. let's say i'm making a sling projectile: i need to have progressive offset params for sliding the stone from the place where it appears (on top of the sling, let's say x,y=8,-5) to x,y=0,0 (so that it hits the enemy in the center), but i also need another pair of x,y offsets to create the ballistic arc of the stone.
20090104 22:05:52< zookeeper> having just one set of offset parameters (x,y) isn't enough
20090104 22:06:15< zookeeper> does that make sense to you?
20090104 22:06:22< boucman> you have "offset" and x and Y
20090104 22:06:28< zookeeper> no no, not that offset
20090104 22:06:51< zookeeper> i'm just talking about moving the stone around on x and y axis, for which i have the x and y keys
20090104 22:06:52< boucman> well, you can cimbine with offset if you want to, but I'm not sure I understand what you mean
20090104 22:07:25< zookeeper> ok, let's put it this way
20090104 22:07:28< boucman> zookeeper: is that in a macro context ?
20090104 22:07:36< zookeeper> kinda. not necessarily though
20090104 22:08:21< boucman> ok, give me an example, I think I understand what you want to do, but not how you want to do it with multiple x ad y
20090104 22:08:25< zookeeper> i want to create a macro for a sling projectile. but the stone needs to initially appear on different x,y offsets depending on which unit is using it.
20090104 22:08:34< zookeeper> ok, just a moment
20090104 22:08:40< boucman> ok, now I understand
20090104 22:08:48< boucman> the limitation is because you want to do the macro
20090104 22:08:57< boucman> if not, you could just do it with the normal params
20090104 22:09:06< zookeeper> sort of, but not exactly
20090104 22:09:21< zookeeper> if i did it with the normal params, i'd have to calculate stuff more
20090104 22:09:35< zookeeper> figure out the exact numbers, which depend on the initial offset
20090104 22:09:47< boucman> zookeeper: i already have a (more complete) FR about that
20090104 22:10:01< zookeeper> oh
20090104 22:10:13-!- Kitty1 [n=kitty@e180212006.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["dinner time"]
20090104 22:10:21< boucman> wesbot: bug 11706
20090104 22:10:25< wesbot> Bug #11706  Assigned to: Jérémy Rosen <boucman>  Status: None  Priority: 1 - Later
20090104 22:10:28< wesbot> Summary: Extensions for particle engine
20090104 22:10:31< wesbot> Original submission: Right now our engine allows support for drawing additiona
20090104 22:10:34< wesbot> l, arbitrary animations, each moving along arbitrary x,y, positions over time.  
20090104 22:10:37< wesbot> URL: https://gna.org/bugs/?11706
20090104 22:10:43< boucman> however it's a bit late to introduce at this point (I need to do  an impact study first)
20090104 22:11:17-!- cib0 [n=cib@p4FD0FF32.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090104 22:11:52< zookeeper> i can't say i really see how that FR addresses what i'm describing
20090104 22:12:15< cib0> server seems to be lagging.. how can i increase the timeout?
20090104 22:12:37< boucman> well, if you had formulas, you could use sin and cos
20090104 22:12:37< Soliton> increase ping_timeout in the preferences file.
20090104 22:12:40< zookeeper> anyways, an exact example of how i have to do what i described now would be MISSILE_FRAME_STONE_* in animation-utils.cfg
20090104 22:13:04< zookeeper> right, true enough, i guess it could be done through formulas
20090104 22:13:13-!- irmorelle [n=ignacior@190.22.74.123] has quit ["Lost terminal"]
20090104 22:13:19< boucman> and, more simply, you could sum with the given parameter, so it might be way simpler
20090104 22:14:13< Soliton> wesnothd is using 100% CPU indeed not sure if something is wrong though.
20090104 22:14:35< zookeeper> on the other hand adding another pair of offset keys is probably dead simple, or so i'd imagine
20090104 22:14:43< cib0> doesn't seem to be depending on my set timeout
20090104 22:14:59< Soliton> what message do you get?
20090104 22:15:35< cib0> Ping timeout
20090104 22:15:50< boucman> zookeeper: dead simple code wise
20090104 22:15:56< Soliton> if that's all that setting is not used.
20090104 22:16:05< boucman> but a huge clunk from a design point of view...
20090104 22:16:10< boucman> I'd rather do it with formulas
20090104 22:19:50< mordante> night
20090104 22:20:02-!- mordante [n=chatzill@roadie.xs4all.nl] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008120122]"]
20090104 22:21:05< Soliton> looks like wesnothd is constantly creating and destroying threads.
20090104 22:21:08< cib0> does anyone know where on earth the map selected in the multiplayer dialog is loaded in the C++?
20090104 22:23:17< Soliton> boucman, Sirp_: any idea what's going on? -^
20090104 22:23:50-!- noy [n=Noy@d75-157-52-251.bchsia.telus.net] has quit []
20090104 22:24:02< Soliton> i have wesnothd in gdb and i see a lot of New Thread/Thread exited running by.
20090104 22:24:06< boucman> Soliton: no idea...
20090104 22:24:13< boucman> can it be caught under a debugger
20090104 22:24:22< boucman> Sirp_, Sirp around ?
20090104 22:24:47< Soliton> well, i have it in gdb.
20090104 22:24:51< loonycyborg> Soliton: What does wesnothd use threads for?
20090104 22:25:05< loonycyborg> Does it create a thread for each connection?
20090104 22:25:08-!- Mith_ [n=marco@78.14.235.168] has quit ["Leaving"]
20090104 22:25:22< Soliton> sending and receiving, i think.
20090104 22:25:53< boucman> loonycyborg: more or less
20090104 22:26:19< boucman> it has a thread pool and creates/destroy them when the number of threads vs number of connections change
20090104 22:26:49< boucman> in campaignd it is important to have one thread per connection because each connection sends huge packets
20090104 22:27:08< loonycyborg> Perhaps someone is SYN-flooding it?
20090104 22:27:13< boucman> but in wesnothd, the number should be 1 thread per 3->5 connections
20090104 22:27:16< boucman> hmm
20090104 22:27:34< boucman> loonycyborg: you have to have a WML level handshake before any thread is created
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20090104 22:28:59< Soliton> boucman: when do threads get destroyed?
20090104 22:29:09< Soliton> it seems like that part is too aggressive.
20090104 22:29:20< Soliton> max_threads is 0.
20090104 22:29:43< boucman> when there are more threads waiting for something to do then a given threshold
20090104 22:29:56< boucman> however that threshod is a config param, and doesn't change
20090104 22:31:19< Soliton> well, what if max_threads is 0?
20090104 22:31:58< boucman> I think its a special case that means that threads should never be destroyed, I'll check the code right away
20090104 22:32:03< Shadow_Master> Sirp_: well said in oyur latest reply ot the Python thread.
20090104 22:32:44< Shadow_Master> secially the part about large multi-thousand line patches.
20090104 22:33:23< boucman> max threads is an upper limit to the number of threads we are allowed to create
20090104 22:33:27< boucman> 0 means no limit
20090104 22:33:43< Soliton> yeah.
20090104 22:33:54< boucman> however it does not prevent us from creating/destroying threads, it just mean we have no upper limit
20090104 22:34:21< Sirp_> Shadow_Master: thanks. :)
20090104 22:34:47< Shadow_Master> Ivanovic: why okyada, elias and noyga have the right to commit translation updates without going through you? :) 
20090104 22:35:03< Shadow_Master> I'm not saying I want to do that btw, you save me lots of merging  work.
20090104 22:35:06< boucman> Soliton: what's the value of min_thread ?
20090104 22:35:13< Soliton> boucman: 4
20090104 22:35:13< Shadow_Master> and bandwidth.
20090104 22:35:53< Soliton> boucman: we're using 7 shards though.
20090104 22:36:05< Soliton> boucman: which basically makes that 28.
20090104 22:36:14< boucman> hmm
20090104 22:36:59< boucman> Sirp_: I might need your help here
20090104 22:37:13< boucman> I have problems understanding the code since you added the "shard" concept.
20090104 22:42:32< Sirp_> boucman: okay....
20090104 22:44:14< boucman> Sirp_: wesnothd seems to use 100%cpu
20090104 22:44:23< boucman> and create/destroy threads like crazy
20090104 22:47:28-!- crimson_penguin [n=ben@64.201.60.218] has quit ["Leaving"]
20090104 22:52:57< Soliton> "if(min_threads && waiting_threads[shard] >= min_threads) {"  that seems suspicious.
20090104 22:53:21-!- fendrin [n=fabi@g228009051.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090104 22:53:33< Soliton> it's the condition for exiting a thread.
20090104 22:53:49< Soliton> doesn't make any sense to me.
20090104 22:54:02< boucman> if min_threads is not 0 and we have more threads waiting than the threshold, destroy the thread
20090104 22:54:33< Soliton> ah, waiting threads are idle threads?
20090104 22:54:39< Soliton> of course..
20090104 22:55:01< Soliton> still shouldn't it check whether max_threads is not 0?
20090104 22:55:26< boucman> max thread is not relating to destroying threads, only to creating them
20090104 22:55:58< Soliton> so if min_threads is 0 we never destroy threads? doesn't make sense to me.
20090104 22:56:16< boucman> Soliton: well it sort of does
20090104 22:56:28< boucman> it means that we keep every thread we create
20090104 22:56:54< boucman> remember that we create threads only if all threads are used, so in a way we stay ready for the worst case so far
20090104 22:57:12< Soliton> yes, but what does that have to do with min_threads = 0?
20090104 22:58:13< boucman> read "min_thread" as the upper bound of the pool of waiting threads
20090104 22:58:25< boucman> (I admit it isn't exactly properly named)
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20090104 22:59:11< Soliton> ok.
20090104 22:59:11< boucman> ESR_: if you read the log, you mail to the ML did not arrive, you probably did not send it to the proper address
20090104 22:59:25< Soliton> guess i'll run the servers with min_threads = 0 then.
20090104 22:59:39< ESR_> boucman: Dang, I'll try again.
20090104 22:59:47< boucman> :)
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20090104 22:59:53< Sirp_> boucman: well when was this behavior introduced?
20090104 23:00:11< Ivanovic> Shadow_Master: okyada is the internationalisation manager for asian languages (at least he was once meant as such)
20090104 23:00:14< Soliton> still weird that threads are getting destroyed and recreated all the time though.
20090104 23:00:14< boucman> Sirp_: before you added the shards, that was my original design :P
20090104 23:00:36< Sirp_> boucman: huh? this problem has been in all that time?
20090104 23:00:37< Ivanovic> and noyga and elias just do commit their stuff (that is noyga does handle the complete french team)
20090104 23:00:47< boucman> however, I don't think it'll work well with multiple pools, it has to be redisigned, I guess
20090104 23:01:00< boucman> Sirp_: what problem ?
20090104 23:01:14< Sirp_> boucman: the problem with it using high CPU and creating and destroying threads like crazy
20090104 23:01:16< Soliton> ah, so one shard has enough threads but not another.
20090104 23:01:35< boucman> Sirp_: apparently it doesn't happen all the time
20090104 23:01:35< Soliton> indeed a problem with the design now.
20090104 23:01:51< Sirp_> boucman: okay; hold on, give me a few minutes and then I should be able to look at the code...
20090104 23:02:07< Soliton> Sirp_: i just noticed now after complaints about the server lagging.
20090104 23:02:08< boucman> moreover, I'm not sure it existed before shards were added, the algo didn't have hysteresis when there is a single pool
20090104 23:02:19< boucman> Sirp_: no problem
20090104 23:03:01< boucman> Soliton: that's my hypothesis, but I am not 100% sure how shards are supposed to work, so I'd rather discuss it with Sirp_ first
20090104 23:04:16< Shadow_Master> Ivanovic: okay
20090104 23:04:23< Soliton> well, waiting_threads[shard] is clearly shard dependent.
20090104 23:04:30< Soliton> so that's a problem.
20090104 23:04:33< Shadow_Master> I didn't know there was a i18n manager for the whole set of asian languages
20090104 23:04:45< boucman> Soliton: never rush to conclusions when programming...
20090104 23:05:08< Ivanovic> Shadow_Master: like i said "intended to be"
20090104 23:05:21< Ivanovic> though i am now handling the chinese langs myself since he was absent for a while
20090104 23:05:31< Soliton> concluding that waiting_threads[shard] is shard dependent is rushing to conclusions? right... :-)
20090104 23:05:36< Ivanovic> (and there was not much from the korean team lately)
20090104 23:05:43< Shadow_Master> a pity
20090104 23:05:44< boucman> no
20090104 23:05:46-!- irmorelle [n=ignacior@190.22.74.123] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090104 23:06:06< boucman> concluding it's what is trigering the bug, and/or that the pool algo doesn't work with shard is...
20090104 23:06:20-!- irmorelle [n=ignacior@190.22.74.123] has quit [Client Quit]
20090104 23:06:40< Soliton> i just repeated your hypothesis...
20090104 23:07:04< boucman> Soliton: :)
20090104 23:07:14< Shadow_Master> Rhonda: would it be possible to have topicdiff.pl loaded with wesbot so that things are easier to read when Ivanovic is making <insert announcement here> things?
20090104 23:07:47< Shadow_Master> * topic-diff.pl
20090104 23:11:01< Soliton> boucman: either way running with min_threads=0 shouldn't be a problem, right?
20090104 23:11:39< boucman> Soliton: except that no threads being destroyed, you should monitor the number of threads so it doesn't get out of hand
20090104 23:11:54< Soliton> yeah.
20090104 23:12:11< boucman> however, since the bug seems to be triggered in very rare conditions, my bet is that restarting the server should fix it too ;)
20090104 23:12:47< Ivanovic> okay, i really should got to bed now since i got to start "too early" tomorrow (lectures going on after christmas holidays...)
20090104 23:12:56< Soliton> i'm not so sure it's a very rare condition but sure.
20090104 23:13:33< Soliton> any idea how i can see the number of threads of a process?
20090104 23:14:01< Soliton> ah, pstree does fine i guess.
20090104 23:14:05< boucman> Soliton: gdb can tell you, not sure the exact command
20090104 23:14:11< boucman> yea, that too :)
20090104 23:14:33< Soliton> well, preferably without having to attach gdb. :-)
20090104 23:15:41< cib0> it's annoying how you basically have to maintain 3 different versions of wesnoth, if you want to play, test the newest WML with others and modify the source
20090104 23:15:44< Shadow_Master> wesbot: seen AI0867
20090104 23:15:44< wesbot> Shadow_Master: Queried user last spoke 1d 6h ago.  AI0867 is currently here on on the channels #wesnoth and #wesnoth-umc-dev.
20090104 23:15:55< Sirp_> should be able to run top and press shift+h
20090104 23:16:02< Sirp_> to show all threads
20090104 23:16:06< boucman> Soliton: I have four svn tree, no big deal
20090104 23:16:33< Soliton> talking to cib0?
20090104 23:16:45< boucman> yup
20090104 23:16:54< boucman> ah, ups yeah
20090104 23:17:00< Shadow_Master> cib0: uh? I basically forgot about 1.4
20090104 23:17:19< Shadow_Master> but then again I don't play MP because I do nt have stable inernet for that
20090104 23:17:39< Sirp_> Soliton, boucman: can you please summarize for me all the symptoms of the problem? It is using high CPU? Anything else?
20090104 23:17:54< Rhonda> Shadow_Master: Sure.
20090104 23:17:54< Sirp_> I have it open in top right now...
20090104 23:18:09< boucman> Soliton: I'll let you explain the symptoms, I'll explain the creation destruction algorithm after that
20090104 23:18:30< wesbot> Shadow_Master: done
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20090104 23:18:33< Soliton> boucman: high load and when i attach gdb i see threads being created and destroyed all the time.
20090104 23:18:39< Soliton> err Sirp_ ^
20090104 23:18:55< cib0> it would be much easier if just everyone fun to play with would use svn :p
20090104 23:19:19< boucman> ok, here is the algorithm I implemented for thread creation/destruction 
20090104 23:19:28< Sirp_> Soliton: okay, do you have gdb attached right now? I am going to try to attach gdb myself and see....
20090104 23:19:33< boucman> remember that I did it before shards...
20090104 23:19:37< Soliton> Sirp_: yes, closing...
20090104 23:19:50< Soliton> Sirp_: pid 4031
20090104 23:19:50< boucman> when a thread arrive in "process_queue" looking for something to do :
20090104 23:20:13< boucman> - if there are already more than a given threashold of threads waiting, it gets destroyed
20090104 23:20:34< boucman> - if it is the last one leaving the waiting queue, it creates a new queue before leaving
20090104 23:20:46< Shadow_Master> wesbot: before you started logging, Rhonda was using joininfo.pl, not sure that was intended for the logs or it was just a personal preference :->
20090104 23:20:46< boucman> that's basically it
20090104 23:21:17< boucman> however, we seem to have one waiting queue per shard now, and I'm not sure how different shards might interact with each others
20090104 23:21:29< Sirp_> boucman, Soliton: if the problem was excessive thread creation and destruction, I think most CPU time would be spent in system time rather than user time
20090104 23:21:30< Soliton> i think it's just needed to make waiting_threads shard independent, i.e. a sum of all shards.
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20090104 23:22:02< Soliton> Sirp_: i'm actually not sure if the CPU time is really much higher than usual.
20090104 23:22:13< boucman> Soliton: IIRC the whole point of different shards was to avoid locking, so it's not that simple
20090104 23:22:16< Soliton> Sirp_: but cib0 said the server is lagging for him.
20090104 23:22:43< cib0> it was, it seems to be better now
20090104 23:23:23< Sirp_> Soliton: the cpu time seems quite high
20090104 23:25:15< Soliton> yeah, looks like it's been rising for the past 24 hours.
20090104 23:26:48< Sirp_> uhh what happened to sar? It's not on the server anymore
20090104 23:26:56< Sirp_> we need to get that installed again. :)
20090104 23:27:54< Soliton> what package was that in again?
20090104 23:28:12< Soliton> sysstat?
20090104 23:28:14< Sirp_> Soliton: what command exactly did you use to invoke gdb?
20090104 23:28:21< Sirp_> Soliton: and I'm not sure, sorry
20090104 23:28:30< Sirp_> yeah looks like it's in sysstat and atsar
20090104 23:28:40< Soliton> gdb attach 4031
20090104 23:28:57< Soliton> installed sysstat.
20090104 23:29:38< Sirp_> Soliton: err when I use that I get "/home/wesnoth/4031: No such file or directory."
20090104 23:30:38< Soliton> uh, but that's the literal command i used.
20090104 23:30:45< Soliton> you need to be the wesnoth user.
20090104 23:31:03< Sirp_> ohhh
20090104 23:31:05< Soliton> ah, yes you get such an error otherwise.
20090104 23:31:30< Soliton> sudo works, too.
20090104 23:31:57< Sirp_> I got a segfault. :-/
20090104 23:32:15< Sirp_> though it still seems to run...
20090104 23:32:40< Sirp_> well I don't know why, but attaching gdb killed it. :(
20090104 23:32:46< cib0> did you guys just restart the server?
20090104 23:32:49< cib0> i got disconnected
20090104 23:33:07< cib0> oh
20090104 23:33:08< boucman> cib0: sort of :P
20090104 23:33:30< Sirp_> umm...killed the server, yes. :)
20090104 23:33:45< Soliton> well, a restart was good anyway. :-P
20090104 23:34:06< Soliton> though graceful would have been better. :-)
20090104 23:34:41< Soliton> Sirp_: you'd just see pages of: [New Thread 0x9cefeb90 (LWP 2326)]
20090104 23:34:41< Soliton> [Thread 0x7a7bab90 (LWP 2317) exited]
20090104 23:34:44< Soliton> scrolling by.
20090104 23:35:26< Shadow_Master> a segfault on a forked process, I presume?
20090104 23:36:02< Soliton> hrm, it didn't restart.
20090104 23:37:57< Shadow_Master> zookeeper: why Royal Warriors aren't using their transparent portrats yet?
20090104 23:38:00< Shadow_Master> *portrait
20090104 23:38:20< Soliton> ok, think i already fixed that a while ago.
20090104 23:40:37< Soliton> still need to commit though...
20090104 23:41:32< Shadow_Master> (this in the new dialogs; spawn a RW, move it to the dialog hex on test scenario...)
20090104 23:45:17< zookeeper> Shadow_Master, royal warriors don't have a portrait :o
20090104 23:45:25< CIA-52> soliton * r31960 /trunk/utils/mp-server/run_server: set threads to 0 to never destroy threads and fix logic errors
20090104 23:48:05< Rhonda> Shadow_Master: It was a personal preference - do you want it back in wesbot?
20090104 23:48:18< Rhonda> ... and I'm usually not reading backlog for wesbot. ;)
20090104 23:50:23-!- crimson_penguin [n=ben@64.201.60.218] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090104 23:52:39-!- zookeeper [n=l@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe9ff800-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit []
20090104 23:53:22< Sirp_> boucman, Soliton: I just think that Linux can create and destroy threads pretty easily these days. This could be the problem, but I'm doubtful. We could try to avoid so much thread destruction though, I suppose.
20090104 23:54:17< boucman> Sirp_: my algorithm was a quick hack to avoid the campaignd being completely blocked because no thread was available and landline users could block a thread for hours
20090104 23:54:45< Sirp_> Soliton: perhaps just set min_threads to be equal to max_threads?
20090104 23:54:57< Sirp_> then we'll always end up with max_threads, which should be fine, and will never destroy threads.
20090104 23:54:59< boucman> it would make sense to write a new algo, but keep in mind that campaignd and wesnothd have completely opposite needs, and the algo should scale well with the kind of packets being send
20090104 23:55:00< cib0> o.o weird, a peasant got added to my recruit list even though i never declared that
20090104 23:55:00< Soliton> Sirp_: both are 0 now.
20090104 23:55:24< cib0> does making sergeants recruitable make peasants recruitable, too?
20090104 23:59:38< Sirp_> Soliton: but it seems that there is a code condition where if min_threads is 0 it will be set to 1
--- Log closed Mon Jan 05 00:00:04 2009