--- Log opened Fri Jan 09 00:00:22 2009
--- Day changed Fri Jan 09 2009
20090109 00:00:22< Shadow_Master> e.g. can I put stuff written in spanish in mine?
20090109 00:00:31< Ivanovic> Shadow_Master: there is a rule: do whatever you like!
20090109 00:00:38< Shadow_Master> oooh, sweet.
20090109 00:00:40< Ivanovic> though it should somehow help the translation
20090109 00:00:53< Shadow_Master> yes, I'll dump all the rules, hints, etc.
20090109 00:00:54< Sapient> Ivanovic: can I add a new Valencian dialect?
20090109 00:01:17< Ivanovic> as in: on the german page we got several parts, one is a list of "who is responsible for what", some subpages for "general terms", "errors in german translation" and stuff like this
20090109 00:01:20< Shadow_Master> since otherwise it will be very difficult to remember all the rules, hints etc. if I get another translator
20090109 00:01:23< Ivanovic> Sapient: NO!
20090109 00:01:36< Sapient> awww, shucks :/
20090109 00:01:47< Shadow_Master> Ivanovic: "errors"? what kind of errors?
20090109 00:01:48< Ivanovic> Shadow_Master: http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/GermanTranslation
20090109 00:02:00< Ivanovic> Shadow_Master: typos, grammar errors, whatever
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20090109 00:02:07< Ivanovic> translation specific mistakes
20090109 00:02:16< Ivanovic> http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/GermanTranslationErrors
20090109 00:02:28< Ivanovic> http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/GermanTranslationUnitNames
20090109 00:02:29< Shadow_Master> "cookie"... "torangan"... "Ivanovic"... it's all I understand
20090109 00:02:48< Ivanovic> Shadow_Master: this really is enough
20090109 00:02:56< Shadow_Master> the latter is a very intersting page
20090109 00:02:59< Sapient> next time they argue about which is proper Valencian on the ml you should threaten to take both out ;)
20090109 00:03:00< Ivanovic> the error page is basically listing each textdomain and what is wrong
20090109 00:03:09< Ivanovic> the latter is a list of common terms (eg the unit tree)
20090109 00:03:26< Ivanovic> Sapient: no, i threaten that *I* will translate for them
20090109 00:03:27< Ivanovic> ^^
20090109 00:03:30< Shadow_Master> I don't quite understand the idea of the errors page.. nobody fixes them as they find it?
20090109 00:03:36< Ivanovic> (/dev/random is my friend...)
20090109 00:03:40< Sapient> heh
20090109 00:03:48< Ivanovic> Shadow_Master: it is also meant for users to report stuff
20090109 00:04:00< Shadow_Master> ah... nice. I need that. :/
20090109 00:04:15< Shadow_Master> I'll put Shadow_Master # 430 to work on mine
20090109 00:05:15< Ivanovic> Shadow_Master: for the unit tree elias used some script to extract it, no idea where it is to be found
20090109 00:05:20< Ivanovic> might be handy for you, too
20090109 00:05:52< Ivanovic> but yes, lots of this stuff is "hand extracted", eg the difficulty levels and names for places
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20090109 00:10:27< Sapient> ummm.... Shadow_Master: why do you use [command] ?
20090109 00:10:59< Shadow_Master> Sapient: I wish I knew it
20090109 00:11:01< Sapient> tags in events have been handled in-order for a long time now
20090109 00:11:09< Sapient> that is archaic
20090109 00:11:30< Shadow_Master> I don't remember why I put that there, I was coding too late at night. But it shouldn't hur teither, right?
20090109 00:11:43< Sapient> it may be the source
20090109 00:12:05< Shadow_Master> which you'd still have to fix :]
20090109 00:12:08< Sapient> the crash happens right after a [/command] when it processes a [refresh]
20090109 00:12:17< Sapient> I mean [redraw]
20090109 00:12:48< Shadow_Master> no [refresh]?  I needed one :(
20090109 00:12:54< Sapient> then it never gets to the [message]
20090109 00:13:18< Shadow_Master> try removing it:
20090109 00:13:31< Sapient> sure, I'll comment it out
20090109 00:13:35< Shadow_Master> macros/respawn-controller.cfg, search for PUT_HIVE_SPAWN_POINT
20090109 00:14:12< Shadow_Master> I actually started writing WML for stuff in 0.9.6, so I may still have some dead code stuck in my mind
20090109 00:16:17< Sapient> well, when simple_wml was introduced the server started changing the order of wml again
20090109 00:16:36< Sapient> so [command] came back in style very briefly ;)
20090109 00:17:00 * Shadow_Master is feeling old, really old...
20090109 00:18:56< Soliton> the server is still changing order on the next scenario.
20090109 00:19:13 * Sapient ouch
20090109 00:20:39 * Shadow_Master ouch too
20090109 00:20:44< Sirp> Soliton: ahhh sorry :-/ we never fixed that?
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20090109 00:21:26< Soliton> Sirp: nope, it's not so easy was your last response, i think. :-)
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20090109 00:22:25< Sirp> Soliton: ummmm uh-huh.
20090109 00:22:36< Sirp> Soliton: I can probably do it, it'll just require more memory usage and loss of efficiency
20090109 00:22:40< Sirp> but maybe we can afford that now?
20090109 00:23:19< Ivanovic> i am off to bed now, n8
20090109 00:23:39< Shadow_Master> um? you can't know before hand whether it's necessary to do or not?
20090109 00:24:08< Sirp> Shadow_Master: that'd require passing more information from the higher layer to the lower, which would be very awkward.
20090109 00:24:19< Shadow_Master> ah yes, indeed.
20090109 00:24:24< Soliton> the other solution would be to send the second scenario like the first: not in another tag; so that there is no need to change it in any way.
20090109 00:25:25< Sirp> Soliton: yes.
20090109 00:25:42< Sirp> ...or there'd probably be the possibility for a particularly nasty hack, too....
20090109 00:25:59< Sapient> I would say that with most tags that are not direct descendents of the scenario, order is probably important
20090109 00:26:55< Sapient> for immediate children of the scenario, order is not important
20090109 00:27:28< Sapient> although some authors make the assumption that events will be handled in the order they are defined, that is not garunteed
20090109 00:27:36< Soliton> i think it's only for action wml?
20090109 00:27:51< Soliton> [if] and such.
20090109 00:27:58< Sapient> order is also important for ConditionalWML and FilterWML
20090109 00:28:09< Sapient> ActionWML is executable WML
20090109 00:28:26< Soliton> ok, i meant conditional wml then.
20090109 00:29:40< Shadow_Master> um. "developer ninja"
20090109 00:29:54< Sapient> ah, I just remembered that the order of [side] tags is important, although I consider that a bug
20090109 00:30:10< Sapient> one should be able to define sides out of order
20090109 00:30:33< Soliton> tags of the same name will probably not be reordered by the server.
20090109 00:32:49< Sapient> as a side note, ItfU looks pretty cool
20090109 00:33:09< Shadow_Master> thanks
20090109 00:34:27< CIA-53> thespaceinvader * r32019 /trunk/data/core/ (6 files in 3 dirs): Add LordBob's Sergeant and Lieutenant portraits.
20090109 00:35:03< Shadow_Master> wee, more portraits
20090109 00:38:00< thespaceinvader> ain't lordbob cool?
20090109 00:38:48< Shadow_Master> any japanese action-movie monster with many arms is cool
20090109 00:38:57< Espreon> Indeed.
20090109 00:39:03< Sapient> removing [command] didn't fix it, but now it's crashing in the terrain code
20090109 00:39:24< Shadow_Master> you've got a leak
20090109 00:40:06< Sapient> in terrain_builder::build_terrains, to be specific (builder.cpp:951)
20090109 00:40:41< Sapient> did you insert terrain tags from a variable?
20090109 00:42:34< Shadow_Master> nope.
20090109 00:42:42< Sapient> weird.
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20090109 00:43:16< Shadow_Master> but there is a statick [terrain] if a {FOREACH} loop getting X,Y coordinates from variablse, if that's what you mean
20090109 00:43:27< Shadow_Master> *static
20090109 00:47:01< Sapient> kk
20090109 00:48:17< Shadow_Master> the sentences above are completely broken.
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20090109 00:53:06< Shadow_Master> "but there is a static [terrain] tag inside a {FOREACH} loop that iterates over a [store_locations] result to obtain the X,Y coordinates"
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20090109 00:53:55< Sapient> yeah, it's totally crashing in the terrain builder
20090109 00:54:14< Sapient> I think this is not a vconfig issue
20090109 00:55:02< Shadow_Master> well, if you look at the WML you'll notice I am replacing a layered terrain with a non-layered one
20090109 00:55:27< Shadow_Master> not sure if there's any relation. also, the original terrain is layered but there are no graphics assigned to the overlay layer (on purpose)
20090109 00:57:18< Shadow_Master> but I'm reading that you are a developer ninja, so I suppose that you would have known these details beforehand (damn, perhaps you set me up a trap)
20090109 00:58:46< Sapient> ah, so I guess you found my photo ;)
20090109 00:58:54< Shadow_Master> I did not
20090109 00:59:13< Sapient> ninja has vanished
20090109 01:00:34< Shadow_Master> um thanks for reminding me of a more important issue with terrains
20090109 01:01:20< Shadow_Master> overlaying IftU's fake shroud terrain over Xv causes an assertion fault
20090109 01:01:41< Shadow_Master> wesnoth: src/sdl_utils.cpp:1317: void blit_surface(const surface&, const SDL_Rect*, surface&, const SDL_Rect*): Assertion `(src->flags & 0x00004000) == 0' failed.
20090109 01:01:50< YogiHH> night everyone
20090109 01:01:57< Shadow_Master> I think I know what happens in there
20090109 01:01:58< Sapient> gn
20090109 01:02:05< Shadow_Master> nacht YogiHH 
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20090109 01:04:12< Shadow_Master> um, no I don't.
20090109 01:04:40< Shadow_Master> but I could set a workaround for it until alink reappears
20090109 01:11:52< Shadow_Master> um, nope. There is something fishy here. Why is an optimized surface making it this far?
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20090109 01:44:26< Sapient> here is the bt: http://rafb.net/p/1lrmye54.html
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20090109 01:53:52< teaser> I'm trying to put an image of a unit on a map that should look like a 'stoned' unit, but the ~GS() imagePathFunction doesn't give the desired result. Looking at the source-code it should, so I need help figuring this out, anyone?
20090109 01:56:14< Sapient> Shadow_Master might know, he wrote it
20090109 01:56:37< Sapient> this variable is never freed: builder_(new terrain_builder(cfg, level, map, theme_.border().tile_image)), // display.cpp
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20090109 01:59:03< teaser> from what I can guess (and in c++ all you get from me are guesses) that is irrelevant. What happens in unit.cpp is that ~GS() is appended if the units is stoned and that produces a certain result, but only adding ~GS() to the same image doesn't
20090109 01:59:23< teaser> (second time in WML)
20090109 01:59:50< Sapient> sounds wrong
20090109 02:00:06< Sapient> probably you are using GS wrong, or it doesn't work
20090109 02:00:25< Sapient> you should paste your WML to the workshop
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20090109 02:01:02< teaser> I'll dig around a bit more in the code and finish some other stuff before posting it, thanks anyway 
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20090109 02:31:40< Sapient> hmm.. can't figure out why that [redraw] was crashing so I'm commenting it out for now
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20090109 02:42:44< Sapient> yeah, it's still crashing in the next rebuild_all() command
20090109 02:43:41< Sapient> not vconfig related
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20090109 02:47:17< Sapient> ok, this is dumb
20090109 02:47:19< Sapient> handler.rebuild_screen() = true;
20090109 02:47:43< Sapient> how is that better than handler.rebuild_screen = true; ?
20090109 02:48:32< Sapient> or... handler.rebuild_screen( /* default is true */);
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20090109 02:54:38 * Shadow_Master was having tuna sandwiches, what's up?
20090109 02:55:01< Sapient> it looks like your crash is related to the terrain or display code
20090109 02:55:15< Shadow_Master> Sapient: I didn't write the ~GS() function FYI
20090109 02:55:23< Sapient> probably because you are using lots of weird custom terrains
20090109 02:55:29< Shadow_Master> I guess it's alink's
20090109 02:55:35< Sapient> oh
20090109 02:55:41< Shadow_Master> weird custom terrains?
20090109 02:56:12< Sapient> another question: did it ever crash when you did not use :shroud command?
20090109 02:56:14< Shadow_Master> ... why would not it happen with the same terraisn in other scenarios?
20090109 02:56:29< Shadow_Master> Sapient: good question
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20090109 02:57:01< Shadow_Master> I went to  debug the WML when I stumbled upon the crash, so I wasn't trying to trigger the event the "regular" way
20090109 02:57:15< Sapient> m hmm
20090109 02:57:56< Sapient> I still don't understand how the screen or builder could become deleted from memory like that
20090109 02:58:15< Sapient> but that appears to be what's happening
20090109 02:58:40< Sapient> (screen)->rebuild_all() is operating on invalid memory space
20090109 02:59:48< Shadow_Master> I am interested on why it doesn't always happen
20090109 03:00:09< Sapient> do you have valgrind?
20090109 03:00:18< Sapient> that might shed some light
20090109 03:00:22< Shadow_Master> yes, but  I have no idea how to use it
20090109 03:00:33< Shadow_Master> (hehe, nifty: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=330980#p330980)
20090109 03:00:44< Sapient> my computer can barely run gdb, so I dare not try to valgrind it
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20090109 03:05:20< Sapient> bah, crashed without :shroud too
20090109 03:06:48-!- [Relic] [n=[Relic]@76.229.202.137] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090109 03:07:49< [Relic]> Hello :)
20090109 03:07:57< Shadow_Master> shoo :)
20090109 03:10:06< [Relic]> :)
20090109 03:18:49< Sapient> I am taking out all the [terrain] commands on a hunch
20090109 03:19:12< Shadow_Master> and then I'd like to see how far you get in case the event doesn't crash
20090109 03:19:44< Shadow_Master> e.g. it may introduce unstabilities that only trigger as you allocate and deallocate objects..
20090109 03:19:50< Shadow_Master> dunno
20090109 03:21:06< Sapient> if that's the case, I could comment out all the (screen)->rebuild_all() calls
20090109 03:21:20< Sapient> from game_events
20090109 03:21:58< Sapient> because it has been crashing in rebuild_all everytime for me
20090109 03:22:18< Sapient> I don't see how you could easily break allocations
20090109 03:22:23< Shadow_Master> if I am not mistaken, those are in charge of updating terrain transitions
20090109 03:22:32< Shadow_Master> hey, you knew you had a memory management bug, right?
20090109 03:23:08< Sapient> no
20090109 03:23:27< Shadow_Master> I was reading a certain famous person cursing about it some days ago...
20090109 03:23:32< Sapient> the memory management for vconfig was working fine
20090109 03:23:40< Sapient> the problem was it wasn't being used
20090109 03:23:47< Shadow_Master> ah
20090109 03:23:58< Sapient> in fact I looked back over the code and it's well commented
20090109 03:24:14< Shadow_Master> okay, I'm clueless in all possible senses of the word.
20090109 03:24:49< voris> Is there a 'gotcha' I haven't thought of to using a self clearing variable macro like this? http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m5c0019bb
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20090109 03:25:38< Sapient> I'll take a look after this debugging session. virtual memory ran out
20090109 03:25:43 * Shadow_Master leaves that to Sapient :]
20090109 03:26:04< Shadow_Master> what did you do? you should set up a fixed pagefile in Windows if you want to do serious programming
20090109 03:26:20< Shadow_Master> and large enough to hold such a large program with debugging symbols
20090109 03:26:26< Shadow_Master> e.g. 3 GB
20090109 03:26:58< voris> In its own partition at the head of the drive. ;)
20090109 03:27:36< Sapient> all I know is, if I open a browser my computer will become extremely unresponsive right now :p
20090109 03:27:44< Shadow_Master> I haven't bothered experiment with HDD sector seek times
20090109 03:27:45< voris> heh
20090109 03:27:56< Shadow_Master> I always keep my swap partition very far from the start of the disk
20090109 03:28:08< Shadow_Master> (and the desktop box' poartition has *holes*, foo)
20090109 03:28:35< Sapient> well it still crashes after I took out [terrain]s
20090109 03:28:59< Shadow_Master> okay, it's not my fault for abusing the terrain engine then? :]
20090109 03:29:17< Shadow_Master> and you have seen nothing :]
20090109 03:29:19< Sapient> I don't know but this is elusive
20090109 03:29:34< Sapient> I may run out of time here
20090109 03:30:04< Shadow_Master> try replacing the whole map tiles with Gg... that will tell us if it's my terrains or not
20090109 03:30:13< Shadow_Master> (of course, then you'd need to fix that store_locations filter)
20090109 03:31:48< Sapient> voris: that code looks like it will work, but I can't imagine how that would be useful
20090109 03:32:08< voris> Just so I don't forget to clear variables.
20090109 03:32:33< Shadow_Master> I have tried to come up with solutions similar to C++ scoping for my variabvles but none of them were really doable with WML...
20090109 03:34:30< Sapient> voris, I'd rather have uncleared variables than use macros that uglify my code
20090109 03:35:21< Shadow_Master> you could also #undef VARIABLE, make your own that pushes new variables onto a stack that is examined at the end of the scenario to CLEAR_VARIABLE on its elements
20090109 03:35:42< Shadow_Master> you don't need to #undef anything, brr
20090109 03:35:42< Sapient> that would be more sensible
20090109 03:35:54< Shadow_Master> what do you mean with "sensible"?
20090109 03:35:56< Sapient> probable TEMP_VARIABLE
20090109 03:36:34< Sapient> sensible as in, far better idea
20090109 03:36:45< Shadow_Master> i'm not that clueless after all :)
20090109 03:37:19< Sapient> except for the redefining VARIABLE part ;)
20090109 03:37:32< Shadow_Master> hey, I corrected myself above
20090109 03:50:20< Shadow_Master> Ivanovic: when s the next pot-update going to take place?
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20090109 04:06:00< Sapient> well I replaced the map with grass and it still crashed
20090109 04:06:14< Sapient> this is one dead end after another
20090109 04:08:13< Sapient> it's still crashing in  display::rebuild_all
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20090109 04:31:10< Sapient> ok, I commented out all the calls to display::rebuild_all, then it crashed in display::drawing_buffer_add
20090109 04:31:21< Sapient> so... proves nothing really
20090109 04:31:40< Sapient> proves that builder isn't the culprit I guess
20090109 04:31:54< Sapient> (screen) could be invalid
20090109 04:36:07< Sapient> lol... in savefiles WML is indented with tabs
20090109 04:36:25< Sapient> I guess we should fix wmlindent to match ;)
20090109 04:42:49< JW1> PLEASE
20090109 04:42:55< JW1> 4 spaces.....a nightmare
20090109 04:43:12< Sapient> see? JW agrees
20090109 04:43:17< JW1> :D
20090109 04:43:27< Sapient> therefore it must be true
20090109 04:43:31< Turuk> ....
20090109 04:43:38 * Turuk checks Sapient to see if he is ill.
20090109 04:44:18< Sapient> hey, I'll play the JW card if I have to; tabs rule ;)
20090109 04:45:00< Turuk> haha I'm just giving him a hard time, I have to agree as well
20090109 04:45:27< Sapient> although personally, I usually use single spaces for indenting because my WML tends to get absurdly deep
20090109 04:45:38< Sapient> mucho nestingo
20090109 04:45:43< Turuk> ah
20090109 04:46:04< Turuk> mine never gets beyond say 8-12 lines in
20090109 04:48:30< Sapient> ok, I have no idea what is causing this crash
20090109 04:48:59< Sapient> I just added a [redraw] at a different moveto, no crash
20090109 04:49:08< Sapient> then I moved to 20,2... crash
20090109 04:51:55< AI0867> sounds nasty
20090109 04:57:24< Sapient> yeah; it is
20090109 04:57:43< Sapient> a real mind boggler
20090109 05:01:01< Sapient> at least it is crashing very consistently
20090109 05:04:21< Sapient> if I comment out the whole event, it stops crashing
20090109 05:04:40< Sapient> so I can uncomment one section of it at a time
20090109 05:04:45< Sapient> a bit annoying
20090109 05:08:59< Sapient> cya later, have fun.
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20090109 10:26:39< Ivanovic> moin
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20090109 10:35:17< CIA-53> ivanovic * r32020 /trunk/data/campaigns/Two_Brothers/images/arne.png: remove some grey pixels from the transparent area
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20090109 11:27:57< natasiel> besides boost iostreams, anything else required to compile 1.5?
20090109 11:28:56< loonycyborg> boost regex :)
20090109 11:29:15< natasiel> ah! thank you :)
20090109 11:29:39< loonycyborg> Also, pango.
20090109 11:31:26< natasiel> maybe someone should change it on the website (http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/CompilingWesnoth); boost regex is probably the thing
20090109 11:34:26< natasiel> and what does the "optional" python adds/modify/remove?
20090109 11:44:07< loonycyborg> Python AIs.
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20090109 13:15:56< zookeeper> my desk and speakers are driving me nuts. whenever i rest my arm or elbow on the desk, my speakers start to make this quiet but really annoying noisy clicking sound. if i lift my arm or elbow, it stops.
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20090109 14:48:17< Turuk> Ivanovic, here?
20090109 14:53:47< Turuk> Ivanovic, if you could remove Era of Races from the add-on server when you get a chance.  The user is using a sprite from Ogre Battle, and despite a warning, and his claim that he had fixed it, he has not done so.
20090109 14:53:51< Turuk> http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=23589
20090109 14:53:53< Turuk> Thanks.
20090109 14:54:15< Ivanovic> Turuk: which addon server?
20090109 14:54:19< Ivanovic> 1.4.x or dev/trunk
20090109 14:54:21< Turuk> 1.4
20090109 14:54:44< Turuk> under Illcwaticando
20090109 14:58:39< Ivanovic> gone it is
20090109 15:01:36< Turuk> thank you
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20090109 15:38:42< cib0> hello
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20090109 17:23:00< CIA-53> ivanovic * r32021 /trunk/po/ (7 files in 7 dirs): daily update of the Spanish translation...
20090109 17:23:44< Shadow_Master> Ivanovic: are you tired? you told us "sent often" in the first place :P
20090109 17:23:50< Shadow_Master> *send your stuff often
20090109 17:24:08< Ivanovic> Shadow_Master: so is there another update for the spanish translation to come today?!?
20090109 17:24:38< Shadow_Master> .. possibly, depends on my mood ;)
20090109 17:25:03< Shadow_Master> and my contributor's. He's way faster than me, and I sent him wesnoth-tb to translate
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20090109 17:44:15< Shadow_Master> hi thespaceinvader 
20090109 17:44:23< thespaceinvader> hey shadow_master
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20090109 17:50:47< Shadow_Master> the marshal is awesome....
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20090109 17:55:15< Shadow_Master> hi elias 
20090109 17:55:26< Shadow_Master> some people have been complaining since the grabber bot seems to not be working?
20090109 17:55:34< elias> hi
20090109 17:56:20< elias> ah, was i still running that?
20090109 17:56:35< elias> the machine running it went down 1 or 2 month ago then :P
20090109 17:57:05< Shadow_Master> oh
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20090109 18:00:00< Ivanovic> it would prbably make sense to have it running on wesnoth.org itself
20090109 18:00:02< Ivanovic> ;)
20090109 18:00:12< Ivanovic> (no idea how to set it up)
20090109 18:00:29< Ivanovic> elias: you should maybe provide Rhonda with instructions on grabberbot if it should be running on wesnoth.org
20090109 18:01:16< Shadow_Master> I suppose it runs as a cronjob only
20090109 18:02:03< Ivanovic> Shadow_Master: but where are the files to run?
20090109 18:02:07< Ivanovic> are they in svn?
20090109 18:02:12< Ivanovic> is the version there up to date?
20090109 18:02:13< Ivanovic> ...
20090109 18:02:55< Shadow_Master> I was wondering if it'd take too much resources or not
20090109 18:03:01< Shadow_Master> that's all
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20090109 18:03:30< Ivanovic> if it is run daily at some time with low load it should not create much of a problem
20090109 18:03:43< Ivanovic> though i got no idea how resource usage for grabberbot is
20090109 18:04:27< elias> it takes no resources
20090109 18:04:38< elias> i'm just not sure it was working properly
20090109 18:04:50< elias> the UnsortedContrib page looks a bit broken (and is way too big)
20090109 18:10:59< elias> Shadow_Master: looking at the page history, it seems grabberbot shut down in May 2008
20090109 18:11:46< Shadow_Master> I recall discussing with cycholka the problem of UC
20090109 18:12:01< Shadow_Master> nobody was taking care of it - apparently the people who used to do were gone
20090109 18:12:38< elias> yeah, UnsortedContrib grew very long, so I had to stop scanning forums
20090109 18:14:34< elias> ah, and the Move/Delete buttons broke at some point when SourceForge changed their file structure
20090109 18:15:09< Shadow_Master> :(
20090109 18:15:13< elias> anyway, if you think it's worth getting it to work again, I can look at it
20090109 18:15:15< elias> but not sure it is
20090109 18:15:41< Shadow_Master> it was nice to have, and some people have complained ever since, but I don't have a strong opinion on that matter
20090109 18:15:42< elias> needs people clicking the Move/Delete links on UnsortedContrib
20090109 18:15:54< Shadow_Master> nor I know how many people have one
20090109 18:17:25< elias> can i add a database to Wesnoth's SF project? probably the only way to make this work as they seem to have removed filesystem access from the webserver
20090109 18:17:44< Shadow_Master> Ivanovic: ^
20090109 18:18:28< Ivanovic> elias: uhm, why sourceforge?!?
20090109 18:18:38< elias> it's where the Move/Delete links go
20090109 18:18:39 * Ivanovic does not understand the reasoning behind this at all
20090109 18:18:48< Ivanovic> but *WHY*?
20090109 18:19:08< elias> whenever someone clicked one link, it would append a line "imagename DELETE/MOVE" to a file
20090109 18:19:15< Ivanovic> grabberbot is scanning *our* forums for images posted and uploaded to *our* forum for images to link them in *our* wiki
20090109 18:19:25< elias> then the bot would read that file periodically and act upon it
20090109 18:19:36< Ivanovic> there is *nothing* that should go over to sourceforge in there since there we *ONLY* host our file releases (source tarballs)
20090109 18:19:48< elias> but now SF has no more write access from the webserver it seems
20090109 18:20:03< elias> ah, ok
20090109 18:20:11< elias> would need another place to store that file then
20090109 18:20:15< Ivanovic> so sf.net should not matter AT ALL
20090109 18:20:40< Ivanovic> uhm, we would have the bot running on our box
20090109 18:20:56< Ivanovic> so what exactly do you want to store in some external place?
20090109 18:21:20< Ivanovic> ain't some "pseudo database" in the same folder as the script is started from enough?
20090109 18:21:38< elias> well, the "bot" was two cronjobs, one scanning forums and putting pictures to wiki, one reading that file and acting accordingly
20090109 18:21:59< Ivanovic> afk
20090109 18:22:16< elias> that file was on SF, because there was no "wesnoth-owned" server yet at that time
20090109 18:24:11< elias> anyway, since it hasn't been missed for almost a year, no point putting much work into this I think :P
20090109 18:24:53< elias> i remember someone wanted to create some picture gallery which would do the same thing, seemed to be a much better approach
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20090109 18:50:24< boucman> darn elias has left :(
20090109 18:50:53< boucman> grabberbot was missed, it's just that I was the one usually dealing with it, and may=>now was a very busy period for me
20090109 18:51:00< boucman> but it is usefull
20090109 18:51:01< Shadow_Master> that ivan_i guy is putting me on my nerves
20090109 18:51:21< boucman> Shadow_Master: seems to be true of all devs
20090109 18:51:36< boucman> (including ESR_, even if he is trying to salvage the case)
20090109 18:51:44< Shadow_Master> if having pure python in wesnoth means accepting this kind of people then... DO NOT WANT! (jk)
20090109 18:52:38< Shadow_Master> http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=331173#p331173
20090109 18:52:50< Shadow_Master> what.
20090109 18:52:54< Turuk> well apparently he reads minds and is speaking for others now too ;)
20090109 18:53:41< Shadow_Master> "only Dave"? damn, even mordante and boucman have shown resistance
20090109 18:53:50< Shadow_Master> and me :D
20090109 18:53:58< Shadow_Master> and torangan. and...
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20090109 18:57:55< governor> Shadow_Master: do you know anything about the compression (implementation or where in the source it is found) used for save games?
20090109 18:58:39< Shadow_Master> yes. it's all boost::iostreams based
20090109 18:59:10< Shadow_Master> but that's the best I know about it... and that it uses a gzip filter for compression
20090109 18:59:12< CIA-53> shadowmaster * r32022 /trunk/changelog: Add boucman's optimizations to changelog.
20090109 18:59:26< Shadow_Master> boucman: can you check r32022? ^
20090109 18:59:34< governor> heh, i wasted time with zlib then
20090109 18:59:55< Shadow_Master> governor: well, it still uses zlib. It's just that Boost hides it from us ;)
20090109 19:00:26< governor> then all i need is to track down the header stucture information used for storing compresison details
20090109 19:01:02< boucman> Shadow_Master: done, it's fien
20090109 19:01:04< boucman> fine
20090109 19:01:13< Shadow_Master> governor: um, it's gzip
20090109 19:01:38< Shadow_Master> no surprises in there.  I don't know the compression level used though
20090109 19:01:51< Shadow_Master> (note that server transactions also use gzip compression nowadays)
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20090109 19:07:52< YogiHH> hi everyone
20090109 19:08:06< Sirp> hi YogiHH 
20090109 19:08:19< YogiHH> Sirp, just the guy i was looking for ;-)
20090109 19:08:39< Shadow_Master> hail YogiHH 
20090109 19:08:52< YogiHH> hi Shadow_Master 
20090109 19:09:21< YogiHH> Sirp: Is there any good reason why the replay code for doing things is different from the "normal" game code?
20090109 19:09:34< Shadow_Master> yes, I did forward- port your fix to trunk
20090109 19:09:51< Shadow_Master> (cf yesterday's log=
20090109 19:10:23< YogiHH> Shadow_Master: i suspected so when i saw the announcement for 1.5 on the forum. Thanks.
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20090109 19:11:35< Shadow_Master> I also fixeda tiny bug created by someone else, with restarting replays  ^^
20090109 19:12:03< YogiHH> Shadow_Master: probably my fault ;-)
20090109 19:12:26< YogiHH> Shadow_Master: i basically wrote the replay_controller stuff
20090109 19:12:44< Shadow_Master> YogiHH: git svn blame told me a different tale (the tiny bug was a one-liner by suokko)
20090109 19:13:07< YogiHH> ah, ok, you just saved my ego ;-)
20090109 19:13:10< Shadow_Master> the bug was relted to the game_events controller being created before the old one being destructed
20090109 19:13:28< Sirp> YogiHH: well IIRC it shares as much code as possible. It's different though just because sometimes things are slightly different in 'normal' code I think....
20090109 19:13:57< Sirp> for instance, moves in replays aren't normally undoable, nor do they trigger ambushes, iirc
20090109 19:14:31< Sirp> YogiHH: however there is an argument that the best way to do things would be rather than have any 'normal' code at all to execute game commands, always generate replay WML and then feed it to a replay controller, even when making the move normally for the first time.
20090109 19:14:43< YogiHH> Sirp: I chased a replay bug Soliton gave me yesterday. Looking deeper into that made me think that we fight an uphill battle versus OOS atm.
20090109 19:16:10< YogiHH> Sirp: the complexity of WML will make OOS grow exponentially unless we use the same codebase for doing things, IMHO.
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20090109 19:17:24< YogiHH> Sirp: This specific example dismisses the sighted event for another unit. Which is not a problem in itself. Only if it is coupled with a choice to make...
20090109 19:18:03< Sirp> YogiHH: if we could unify the code bases for executing commands, I'd be strongly in favor of this.
20090109 19:18:30< Sirp> YogiHH: the idea of never actually executing commands at all except through a replay controller sounds like a nice idea to me.
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20090109 19:18:35< Shadow_Master> how many fixes to the replay controller would the "great python stuff" introduce? how many bugs? :/
20090109 19:18:46< Sirp> (though perhaps when we should rename it to command executor)
20090109 19:19:06< YogiHH> Sirp: Yes, it's not only for replays after all.
20090109 19:19:23< Sapient> Shadow_Master: changing language does not imply that it would be better or worse
20090109 19:19:32< Sapient> so that would remain to be seen
20090109 19:19:38< Sirp> Sapient: but re-writing implies it would be worse
20090109 19:19:53< Sirp> YogiHH: I think such a refactoring is a great idea.
20090109 19:20:51< cib0> hm, unifying that stuff sounds like a great idea to me, i like the idea of abstracting "what is happening" from "who is playing" in general
20090109 19:21:06< YogiHH> Sirp: If it would only be for looking at a game afterwards, i might hesitate. But it is actually the control mechanism for multiplayer information flow as well. So it really should work like the normal game code.
20090109 19:21:41< Sirp> YogiHH: yes, I agree. This sounds like the best way to avoid problems.
20090109 19:22:47< Sirp> Sapient, Shadow_Master, anyone else interested: this is a great article that anyone interested in 'rewriting' should read closely: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html
20090109 19:23:55< YogiHH> Soliton: From what i have seen the sighted event in replays never really worked like it was supposed to be (i looked back to rev 2000 ;-). I will try if i can find an easy fix but i doubt it at the moment. If this isn't possible, it will have to wait past 1.6
20090109 19:24:19< loonycyborg> Sirp: I have dejavu. Probably I've already read that article :)
20090109 19:24:24< Shadow_Master> reading
20090109 19:24:30< Sapient> funny article
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20090109 19:25:14< Shadow_Master> déjà vu indeed, since I had heard of the Netscape history before
20090109 19:25:24< Sapient> my compilers&interpreters professor told a funny story once about a software house that tried to rewrite a solution from SML to another language
20090109 19:25:47< Soliton> YogiHH: ok sounds good; did you try reproducing undo related recall OOS?
20090109 19:26:02< Sapient> but eventually after years and tons of money they gave up and kept using it, because the SML Was too tricky and it "just worked"
20090109 19:26:10< YogiHH> Soliton: no, not yet
20090109 19:27:18< Sirp> I just don't see what the problem is. We've said that having extensions written in Python would be cool to try. One of these Python fanatical people should just go do it.
20090109 19:27:19< Soliton> YogiHH: ok, that would be nice to get fixed since that will invariably happen in any scenario. i completely agree with unifiying the (replay) command execution handling, btw.
20090109 19:28:24< Soliton> YogiHH: is there maybe a reasonably simple way to add the sighted events into replays if one were to bother?
20090109 19:29:04< YogiHH> Soliton: The only reasonable way i see is using actions.cpp::move_unit for the replay as well. It will need some adjustments, though.
20090109 19:29:29< YogiHH> Soliton: Since actions.cpp::move_unit implements the sighted event correct
20090109 19:29:30< loonycyborg> Sirp: I'd work on it myself, but there's ton of other interesting things that distract me :)
20090109 19:30:37< YogiHH> Soliton: did you use delayed shroud update or not when undoing?
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20090109 19:31:26< Soliton> YogiHH: i think not.
20090109 19:31:34< YogiHH> ok
20090109 19:31:53< YogiHH> i am off for a while, might come back later again.
20090109 19:31:55< Soliton> YogiHH: i was talking about a manual way to add the sighted event WML. no idea how complicated that is.
20090109 19:32:53< YogiHH> Soliton: look at actions.cpp::move_unit and you know exactly what you are up to ;-).
20090109 19:32:56< Sapient> YogiHH: one thing you should know about the sighted event is that it is extremely complex and buggy
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20090109 19:33:06< YogiHH> ugh
20090109 19:33:14< Sapient> I have desired to deprecate it for a long time
20090109 19:33:37< Sapient> and I urge people to use "moveto" events with a [filter_vision] tag
20090109 19:33:39< YogiHH> Soliton: plus you need to find a way to prevent the event from showing the choose-dialog
20090109 19:34:14< YogiHH> Sapient: yes, moveto should work way better for replays, too
20090109 19:34:32< Soliton> YogiHH: ok, sounds like a no. :-)
20090109 19:35:00< YogiHH> really off now :-)
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20090109 19:36:05< Soliton> Sapient: is an automatic conversion of these event (by wmllint) possible?
20090109 19:36:38< Sapient> I think so
20090109 19:37:06< Soliton> maybe you can file a feature request about it? :-)
20090109 19:38:01< Sapient> well, not everyone is convinced that "sighted" should be deprecated
20090109 19:38:14< Sapient> from the WML author perspective, it is easier to use
20090109 19:38:29< Sapient> but from the C++ perspective, it is unmaintainable
20090109 19:38:34< Shadow_Master> Sapient: I didn't know you were encouraging the deprecation of sighted
20090109 19:38:35< Soliton> if an automatic conversion is possible they should be just as powerful though?
20090109 19:38:44< Shadow_Master> indeed, filter_vision sounds like a better plan.
20090109 19:39:22< Sapient> no, moveto with filter_vision implies far less promises than "sighted"
20090109 19:39:37< Soliton> oh.
20090109 19:39:49< Sapient> sighted events could potentially trigger under a multitude of conditions, not only movement
20090109 19:40:10< Sapient> that's why it's so difficult to maintain
20090109 19:40:12< Shadow_Master> ehm... right. Shroud is cleared *after* moveto and attack*
20090109 19:42:40< zookeeper> err, moveto events cannot substitute for sighted events in all cases.
20090109 19:42:46< zookeeper> hmm. or can they?
20090109 19:43:04< zookeeper> i was first thinking that moveto wouldn't stop mid-move when you sight a unit, but of course it would.
20090109 19:44:14< zookeeper> i'd be in favour of rather splitting the sighted event into multiple similar events that'd cover all the usual cases, instead of one event trying to do it all.
20090109 19:44:31< zookeeper> since it can be used (or attempted..) in many different ways
20090109 19:44:46< Shadow_Master> attempted to be used indeed
20090109 19:45:50< Sapient> comma seperated event names help with that
20090109 19:46:43< Sapient> moveto,recruit,recall
20090109 19:46:51< Shadow_Master> Sapient: that technique  ... what does it do, exactly? <wml_no_cplusplus_mode>
20090109 19:46:54< Sapient> e.g. if you recruit a gryphon
20090109 19:47:23< Sapient> what technique?
20090109 19:47:38< Shadow_Master> [event] name=foo,bar,baz
20090109 19:47:57< Shadow_Master> it assigns the same WML for handling the three different kinds of events?
20090109 19:49:12< zookeeper> Sapient, and one thing that just won't work with moveto events is recognizing whether that move actually revealed the other unit or have you been able to see it all the time.
20090109 19:49:48< zookeeper> of course you can still make it a first_time_only=yes event and have it work the first time, but...well, i guess that's usually enough.
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20090109 19:50:54< Sapient> zookeeper: good point. I think first_time_only=yes is the default anyways
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20090109 19:51:47< Sapient> Shadow_Master: foo,bar,baz means that the [event] will be processed whenever "foo" "bar" or "baz" event names are fired
20090109 19:52:28< Shadow_Master> aha... but is the WML triplicated and inserted into a new series of [event]name=foo  [event]name=bar ... in hte saved game?
20090109 19:52:35< zookeeper> no
20090109 19:52:45< Shadow_Master> ah, okay
20090109 19:52:55< zookeeper> so yes, it's actually worth using ;)
20090109 19:53:30 * Shadow_Master has wasted his life triplicating WML then
20090109 19:54:59< Sapient> indeed
20090109 19:55:14< Sapient> you prodigal son, you
20090109 19:55:37< Shadow_Master> :.(
20090109 20:00:48< Sapient> [command] slap Shadow_Master [/command]
20090109 20:01:11< Shadow_Master> that does not parse.
20090109 20:01:20< Sapient> lol
20090109 20:01:38< Sapient> I just did that to give you a config error :P
20090109 20:01:47< Shadow_Master> [command] [slap] id=Sapient [/slap] [/command] # expand new lines plz
20090109 20:02:09 * Sapient is slapped silly.
20090109 20:03:24< Shadow_Master> can I use [have_unit] side=1 id=Foo x,y=recall,recall [/have_unit] to detect whether I have Foo in the recall list, or should I just [store_unit] and check the container's length?
20090109 20:03:39< Shadow_Master> *[if] [have_unit] of course... etc.
20090109 20:03:59< Sapient> have_unit doesn't check the recall list, does it?
20090109 20:04:23< Shadow_Master> i'm asking you.
20090109 20:04:28< Sapient> I can't remember if I fixed it yet or not
20090109 20:04:52< Shadow_Master> then it probably doesn't.
20090109 20:04:58< Sapient> probably, you'll need to check stored unit length
20090109 20:05:02< Shadow_Master> yeah
20090109 20:07:54< Sapient> where did you get that Shikadi kitten avatar?
20090109 20:08:11< Shadow_Master> shrek 2 :)
20090109 20:08:22< Sapient> it looks like the eyes are too big to be a real cat
20090109 20:08:43< Sapient> puss in boots? lol
20090109 20:09:06< Shadow_Master> wait... I disclaim any possible relations that may be inferred with ShikadiLord
20090109 20:09:12< Shadow_Master> *infered
20090109 20:09:28 * loonycyborg more liked ShikadiLord's computer-using cat avatar.
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20090109 20:11:57< Shadow_Master> :D
20090109 20:12:02-!- ShikadiLord [n=sergey@79.139.246.35] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20090109 20:13:44< Shadow_Master> s/:D/D:</
20090109 20:24:01< Shadow_Master> boucman: around?
20090109 20:24:08< boucman> yup
20090109 20:24:32< Shadow_Master> there are some problems with the option " skip AI moves ".
20090109 20:24:44< boucman> I don't know how it works
20090109 20:25:04< boucman> and to be honest, I have a huge flu, which means I'm barely able to think properly
20090109 20:25:05< Shadow_Master> ifan AI unit moves to attack, their original hex is not redrawn until they finish playing the attack animation
20090109 20:25:08< Shadow_Master> oh.
20090109 20:25:08< boucman> no coding for me tonight
20090109 20:25:12< Shadow_Master> :(
20090109 20:25:28< boucman> Shadow_Master: please fill a bug report, I'll have a look at it later
20090109 20:25:35< Shadow_Master> I am sure I filed one a year ago
20090109 20:25:53< Shadow_Master> https://gna.org/bugs/?func=detailitem&item_id=11589
20090109 20:25:59< Shadow_Master> someone marked it as fixed and closed it
20090109 20:26:18< boucman> well, reopen, comment with a precise case, and assign to me
20090109 20:26:52< Shadow_Master> will do later
20090109 20:27:40< zookeeper> also AI units don't change facing when moving when that option is on
20090109 20:28:10< Shadow_Master> someone do it for me? :P
20090109 20:30:10< boucman> ESR_: please ping me when you're around (I need help for an english sentence)
20090109 20:30:26< ESR_> boucman: I'm here.
20090109 20:30:37< Turuk> ooo I speak English tooo ahh shucks
20090109 20:30:38< Shadow_Master> ESR_: ah, I wanted to talk to you
20090109 20:30:48< Shadow_Master> ping me when you have time
20090109 20:30:48< boucman> ok, I want to add an option to disable scrolling around when a unit moves
20090109 20:31:13< boucman> could you help me formulate the button label and tooltip into something meaningfull ?
20090109 20:31:28< ESR_> Sure.
20090109 20:32:57< boucman> currently I have "Scroll to Moving Units" for the button and "Should the map scroll to a unit before it is animated" for the tooltip
20090109 20:33:03< ESR_> The option could be called "Enable (or disable) scroll tracking of unit moves."
20090109 20:33:19< boucman> I like that :)
20090109 20:33:24< ESR_> Or ...of moving units".
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20090109 20:33:32< zookeeper> i wonder if there should just be a little button somewhere in the UI which would allow you to delay any received moves from playing until you toggle it off again.
20090109 20:33:52< boucman> it's not just moving units, it's any animated units
20090109 20:34:26< [Relic]> Hello :)
20090109 20:34:38< boucman> Enable scroll tracking of unit actions.
20090109 20:34:52< ESR_> That works.
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20090109 20:35:01< boucman> ok, what about the tooltip ?
20090109 20:35:44< zookeeper> i'd imagine people would be uncomfortable with potentially missing important actions, so some kind of an option to delay playing them sounds better. although what you're doing sounds like a good interim solution.
20090109 20:35:45< ESR_> "Should the map view scroll to a unit when an action or move is animated?"
20090109 20:37:51< boucman> zookeeper: nope, this can be done by simply poping up any menu (I personally press escape)
20090109 20:38:12< boucman> this is more for MP games where people want to be able to plan their move without the screen scrolling all the time
20090109 20:42:28< zookeeper> boucman, not really, since with a menu open you can't actually do anything
20090109 20:42:50< zookeeper> when planning you (or at least i) need to be constantly checking movement ranges and stuff
20090109 20:43:18< Shadow_Master> looks like 1.6 at FOSDEM will be definitively impossible
20090109 20:51:21< Sirp> ahhh come now, what happened to good old fashioned developer optimism?
20090109 20:52:16< Shadow_Master> Sapient: um...
20090109 20:52:22< Sapient> ?
20090109 20:52:51< Shadow_Master> if I store a single unit successfully, what will I receive if I check the container's lenght?
20090109 20:52:54< Shadow_Master> *length
20090109 20:53:00< Sapient> 1
20090109 20:53:23< Shadow_Master> are you sure?
20090109 20:54:28< Shadow_Master> um, nvm. I'll go to have lunch
20090109 21:18:03-!- grzywacz [n=grzywacz@moinmoin/developer/karol] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090109 21:20:11< grzywacz> evening
20090109 21:20:18< Sapient> yo grzywacz
20090109 21:20:23< grzywacz> hey Sapient
20090109 21:32:21-!- yann [n=dwitch@nan92-1-81-57-214-146.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090109 21:46:23< Sirp> hi grzywacz 
20090109 21:46:23< Shadow_Master> Sapient: no problem, I figured the issue. It was a very silly mistake on my part
20090109 21:46:24< Sirp> hi yann 
20090109 21:46:43< Shadow_Master> [variable] name=$area_157.length   :-(
20090109 21:46:57< yann> hi Sirp 
20090109 21:47:02< yann> happy new year!
20090109 21:47:15< grzywacz> Hi Sirp, how are you?
20090109 21:47:16< yann> all the best to all of you :)
20090109 21:47:21< grzywacz> yann, :)
20090109 21:47:30< Sapient> happy new year yann
20090109 21:47:56< Sapient> the arbitrary point on the gregorian calender is reached; cherish it ;)
20090109 21:48:13< grzywacz> I find that funny as well. ;-)
20090109 21:48:29< Sirp> I am well grzywacz, and you? 
20090109 21:48:33< loonycyborg> yann: Wishing happy new year is so 2008 :)
20090109 21:48:49< yann> :)
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20090109 21:49:06< grzywacz> Sirp, well as well, thanks. I've seen the online version of dark chess, btw. ;)
20090109 21:49:06< Sirp> well at least the periodicy of the point appearing isn't arbitrary, Sapient 
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20090109 21:49:21< Sirp> also, it is actually very close to the solstice.
20090109 21:49:28< Sirp> grzywacz: ahhhhhh we should play some time... :)
20090109 21:50:32< grzywacz> Sirp, sure.
20090109 21:50:34< Shadow_Master> hi grzywacz 
20090109 21:50:49< grzywacz> hi Shadow_Master
20090109 21:53:35< grzywacz> Shadow_Master, are you the one who actually uses sound sources?
20090109 21:54:20 * zookeeper hopes to start experimenting with sound sources a bit more in 1.7 :>
20090109 21:55:18< grzywacz> zookeeper, I think it's still rather crude
20090109 21:55:51< Shadow_Master> grzywacz: yes, I am
20090109 21:56:08< Shadow_Master> that's why I bothered to fix them :)
20090109 21:56:24< grzywacz> Shadow_Master, is it on the addon server?
20090109 21:57:37< Shadow_Master> grzywacz: yes
20090109 21:57:47< Shadow_Master> "Invasion from the Unknown" for 1.5.6-1.5.7
20090109 21:58:11< grzywacz> Oh. And where exactly do you use them, so I can hear? :)
20090109 21:58:27< Shadow_Master> note that only the 1st, 2nd, 16th and 20th scenarios do actually use them atm; I have not had time for touch ups because I have experienced other major issues with my campaign
20090109 21:58:35< Shadow_Master> the answer is in the message above
20090109 21:58:44< grzywacz> Thanks!
20090109 22:00:16< Shadow_Master> I haven't found any problem or lack with the current sound sources engine. All I fixed was the lack of a more adequate WML interface (so that they would not be dropped on saved games) and some default parameters; all of that is fixed since.. 1.5.4 IIRC
20090109 22:01:24< Shadow_Master> 1.5.6? wow, I am slow
20090109 22:02:25< grzywacz> Shadow_Master, as far as I can recall, the volume falloff is not smooth enough. It's calculated on by-hex basis, instead of per-pixel of the viewport position, so for sources with small distances, it is possible to hear that there are only a few possible volume levels
20090109 22:04:26< Sapient> so it's based on the viewport, not on the mouse x,y ?
20090109 22:04:43< Shadow_Master> uuum, I haven't experimented with small falloff distances
20090109 22:04:46< grzywacz> Yes. Why would it be based on the mouse?
20090109 22:04:55< grzywacz> Shadow_Master, I did. It's not pretty. :)
20090109 22:04:59< Sapient> because wherever you click, there you are
20090109 22:05:15< grzywacz> Sapient, I don't identify myself like that in Wesnoth.
20090109 22:05:27< Shadow_Master> mainly because I precisely use soundsources for sounds that span large areas
20090109 22:05:29< grzywacz> Sapient, it's too... tactical. Contrary to, say, HoMM.
20090109 22:05:38< Sapient> ok, it's your feature
20090109 22:05:47< grzywacz> Sapient, no, it's not "mine".
20090109 22:05:53< grzywacz> Sapient, I'm just explaining my reasoning.
20090109 22:06:18< Sapient> I don't think "too tactical" is a reason
20090109 22:06:33< grzywacz> Hm?
20090109 22:06:35< Shadow_Master> umm?
20090109 22:06:45< Sapient> if you are imitating the implementation of a successful game such as HoMM, then that might be a valid reason
20090109 22:07:01< Shadow_Master> "tactical"? what does have to do with soundsources :?
20090109 22:07:15< Sapient> I don't know
20090109 22:07:18< grzywacz> Shadow_Master, if you're an omnipotent leader, then you don't become the soldier you click ;)
20090109 22:07:44< Shadow_Master> true... but sound sources are exclusively a map feature...
20090109 22:07:56 * Shadow_Master does not understand Sapient's original statement
20090109 22:08:15< grzywacz> Shadow_Master, the point is, you might want to hear them from the unit's perspective.
20090109 22:08:15< Shadow_Master> 22:04 <Sapient> so it's based on the viewport, not on the mouse x,y ? <- why do I need a mouse to play Wesnoth anyway? :(
20090109 22:08:31< grzywacz> Shadow_Master, so you would hear the sources which are close to the selected unit.
20090109 22:08:32< grzywacz> Or so.
20090109 22:08:39< Sapient> grzywacz: so do you often look in one direction while you point your mouse cursor in another different direction?
20090109 22:08:40< Shadow_Master> doesn't sound very Wesnothian
20090109 22:08:58< grzywacz> Sapient, I often see the whole map on my screen. :P
20090109 22:09:00< Shadow_Master> wait.. ehm. ?
20090109 22:09:04< Sapient> or do you always stare at the very center of your screen?
20090109 22:09:50< zookeeper> err, who'd really play wesnoth without a mouse or other analog pointing device?
20090109 22:09:53< Sapient> since the center of your screen is what I understand to be the "hex" which determines volume?
20090109 22:10:14< grzywacz> zookeeper, many people. Keyboard-only interface is one of Ivanovic's wishes 
20090109 22:10:20< grzywacz> Sapient, correct
20090109 22:10:38< Sapient> ok... what if the sound source is at the edge of the screen? you might never hear it at all
20090109 22:10:39< zookeeper> many people, really? huh.
20090109 22:10:57< grzywacz> zookeeper, easier to play on consoles that way as well
20090109 22:11:08< Sapient> grzywacz: that's a non-argument; screen center can be used as a fallback when a pointing device is not in use
20090109 22:11:11< grzywacz> zookeeper, imagine a contextual interface, like in, say, jRPGs
20090109 22:11:32< Sapient> or selected unit hex
20090109 22:11:33< grzywacz> Sapient, it's not an argument, I just stated what the current implementation is. :)
20090109 22:12:00< Sapient> it sounded a lot like an argument to me
20090109 22:12:37< Sapient> but maybe my screen was not centered at the right hex :p
20090109 22:12:44< grzywacz> maybe :p
20090109 22:13:59< grzywacz> Anyway, when *I* play Wesnoth, I "feel" like looking at the battlefield from above through a "window", which would be the viewport. As such, I found it logical that the center of the screen would be where the sounds can be heard the best from.
20090109 22:14:09< grzywacz> Mouse... Maybe cool.
20090109 22:15:03< Shadow_Master> I'd be able to play Wesnoth on just a linux fbcon terminal, without mouse or anything
20090109 22:15:13< Shadow_Master> grzywacz: well, that's exactly how I play :]
20090109 22:15:39< Shadow_Master> (I mean the idea of windows, viewports, etc.)
20090109 22:16:39< loonycyborg> Shadow_Master: Does wesnoth in fbcon even work for you? Is fb enabled in Debian's SDL?
20090109 22:17:22< grzywacz> I'd feel awkward if I had a unit selected next to a waterfall, and could still hear it from 3 screens away, while looking at a patch of desert. ;)
20090109 22:17:30< Shadow_Master> I remember wesnoth working in opensuse's SDL in fbcon only as root
20090109 22:17:49< Shadow_Master> haven't tried with Debian, and owon't do as long as I have a X server running
20090109 22:18:04< Shadow_Master> so, perhaps on next reboot :]
20090109 22:18:06< grzywacz> Shadow_Master, is there a mouse emulation via keyboard, then?
20090109 22:18:39< Shadow_Master> no
20090109 22:18:53< loonycyborg> Besides, there's a deamon that makes mouse work in text console. Perhaps it works with fb apps too..
20090109 22:18:53< grzywacz> Shadow_Master, it's hard to play vanilla wesnoth without mouse
20090109 22:19:05< Shadow_Master> I don't recall the exact trick, but it had something to do with chown :users /dev/psaux
20090109 22:19:06< grzywacz> gpm
20090109 22:19:20< Shadow_Master> yes, gpm running
20090109 22:19:49< grzywacz> SDL can use gpm as source of mouse events.
20090109 22:19:59< grzywacz> *a source
20090109 22:21:13< Shadow_Master> there were many refresh problems, though (video refresh=
20090109 22:21:24< grzywacz> or maybe it can read directly from /dev/...
20090109 22:21:28< Shadow_Master> but I wasn't sure whether to blame SDL, Wesnoth, or both  ::P
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20090109 22:21:39< grzywacz> Shadow_Master, depends on how fb behaves.
20090109 22:21:50< grzywacz> Shadow_Master, Wesnoth doesn't work with double-buffered devices.
20090109 22:22:04< Shadow_Master> no? :(
20090109 22:22:16< grzywacz> No. It would have to redraw the whole scene each frame.
20090109 22:22:26< Shadow_Master> aw.
20090109 22:23:16< Shadow_Master> even the main menu siffered from (quick) flickering. that's why then
20090109 22:23:31< grzywacz> Most likely. Been there, done that.
20090109 22:23:42< loonycyborg> What's the way to make SDL use particular backend? E.g. libcaca? :)
20090109 22:24:01< grzywacz> loonycyborg, http://sdl.beuc.net/sdl.wiki/SDL_envvars
20090109 22:24:38< Shadow_Master> "caca" means "poop" in spanish <runs away>
20090109 22:25:23< loonycyborg> That's the intended meaning :)
20090109 22:25:37< grzywacz> lol
20090109 22:25:46< loonycyborg> http://caca.zoy.org/
20090109 22:26:22< grzywacz> Ah, colour. aalib used to be b&w only.
20090109 22:26:30< Shadow_Master> oh noes
20090109 22:28:09< Shadow_Master> um, ESR_ around?
20090109 22:28:26< grzywacz> I especially like the project's logo.
20090109 22:28:41 * Shadow_Master too ^o^
20090109 22:29:12< Sapient> the software they create seems kind of crap
20090109 22:29:25< Sapient> literally
20090109 22:31:00< ESR_> Shadow_Master: What's up?
20090109 22:31:10-!- maxy [n=maxy@84-74-82-221.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit []
20090109 22:31:14< loonycyborg> Sapient: No software can be crap *literally* :)
20090109 22:31:29< loonycyborg> Since it's immaterial..
20090109 22:31:34< Shadow_Master> ESR_: I was thinking of a nifty idea that I would like to see in wmllint, if it hasn't been done already
20090109 22:31:40 * ESR_ thinks Windows comes awfully close, though.
20090109 22:31:47< Shadow_Master> ESR_: macro expansion
20090109 22:32:03< Sapient> lol
20090109 22:32:11< Shadow_Master> er, a "macro expander". Kinda a external WML mini preprocessor
20090109 22:32:14< ESR_> I've had that thought and rejercted it.
20090109 22:32:27< grzywacz> loonycyborg, given that I had a roll of toilet paper printed with penguins....
20090109 22:32:38< Shadow_Master> I'd use it to get rid of some execessive macro usage in my add-on
20090109 22:33:08< ESR_> Shadow_Master: There are several problems with the idea.
20090109 22:33:31< Shadow_Master> I listen
20090109 22:34:20< ESR_> First, it woulfd mean that wmllint would have to do all its analysis twice, once on the unexpanded version of the tree and once on the expanded.
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20090109 22:35:42< Shadow_Master> well, I would use it to expand macros in the real files, as I said above
20090109 22:35:42< boucman> ESR_: how about doing it as a separate tool ?
20090109 22:36:13< ESR_> Second, It would requite a mechanism to refer spans of expanded lines back to a line in the unexpanded original.  I know how to write such things - I've done it before - and I therefore know that they sound mucch easier than they are.  Edge cases bite you.
20090109 22:36:42< grzywacz> Shadow_Master, wow, 13 megs! :x
20090109 22:36:50< boucman> again, how about separate expandmacro.py tool ?
20090109 22:36:56< Shadow_Master> grzywacz: I has record.
20090109 22:38:19< ESR_> boucman: That's hust a factorying idea.  Sure, the expander could be a module - that wouldn't affect the global complexity of the macroexpanxer plus wmllint as a whole.
20090109 22:38:37< Shadow_Master> grzywacz: seriously, you haven't  sn a 
20090109 22:38:38< ESR_> s/hust a factorying idea/just a factoring/
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20090109 22:41:56-!- boucman [n=rosen@159.83.102-84.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090109 22:42:04< grzywacz> -_-
20090109 22:42:30< loonycyborg> That's how wesnoth with libcaca looks like: http://imagebin.org/35428
20090109 22:43:27< ESR_> loonycyborg: OK, that's just wrong.  But no more wrong than I expected from libcaca :-)
20090109 22:43:28< ilor> loonycyborg: the menus could use a bit of work ;)
20090109 22:43:29< Sapient> I see now just how appropriate that name is
20090109 22:43:33< Ivanovic> reduce the font size and it will look better
20090109 22:44:02< Ivanovic> and: the terminal is too small
20090109 22:44:05< Ivanovic> by far too small...
20090109 22:44:21 * ESR_ thinks "reduce the font size and it will look better" is a phrase he is unlikely to hear again in this lifetime.
20090109 22:44:32< ilor> and the test scenario would be more interestin than the titlescreen ;)
20090109 22:44:42< Ivanovic> hry, it is the same when using aalib to view a video
20090109 22:45:05< Ivanovic> as long as you are able to display many lines and many chars per line, you can make it look rather okay
20090109 22:45:22-!- Shadow_Master [n=shadowm@unaffiliated/shadowmaster/x-275924] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090109 22:45:22< ilor> ESR_: unless you come across a broken webpage where a smaller fon un-breaks it ;)
20090109 22:45:54< ESR_> ilor: Good point...
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20090109 22:46:21< Shadow_Master> I did something really weird to my screen session for running it as "screen -DRscreen -DR"
20090109 22:46:32< Shadow_Master> :/
20090109 22:46:47< Shadow_Master> oh yeah, I changed the control chars. Greeeat
20090109 22:47:12< Shadow_Master> grzywacz: you have never seen ~40 MB add-ons, have you?
20090109 22:47:16< Soliton> screen -x -e ^Aa
20090109 22:47:40< Shadow_Master> for the next time ...
20090109 22:47:55< loonycyborg> That's how it looks with test scenario and in larger window: http://imagebin.org/35430
20090109 22:48:05< Soliton> for any time.
20090109 22:50:55< Shadow_Master> I can't go back to the past and I already killed the session with -X kill -.-
20090109 22:51:41< Sapient> cya later, have fun.
20090109 22:51:41-!- Sapient [n=sapien-x@c-24-126-133-155.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has left #wesnoth-dev []
20090109 22:51:53< Shadow_Master> loonybot: there are no words in my vocabulary to describe that
20090109 22:51:54< loonybot> error: 'there' does not name a type
20090109 22:52:20< Shadow_Master> it does! it names a location object! foo..
20090109 22:52:50< loonycyborg> It looks like nethack or angband :)
20090109 22:53:02< Shadow_Master> no.
20090109 22:57:24< grzywacz> Shadow_Master, no :)
20090109 22:57:34< grzywacz> Shadow_Master, impressive amount of work...
20090109 22:58:01< grzywacz> Shadow_Master, these caves are almost asking to have some random underground effects added :D
20090109 22:58:10< Shadow_Master> yup. and it continues on SVN
20090109 22:58:49< Shadow_Master> (regarding the maount of work)
20090109 22:59:38< Shadow_Master> what do you mean with "random underground Effects"? so sounds interesting, somehow
20090109 23:00:43< grzywacz> Shadow_Master, I can see you have massive cave levels. You could add map-wide sound sources that trigger randomly from time to time to make it feel more interesting
20090109 23:01:04< grzywacz> Shadow_Master, like dripping water, rocks rolling in the distance...
20090109 23:01:30< Shadow_Master> ah, if I had the sounds ;)
20090109 23:01:44< grzywacz> surely ;)
20090109 23:01:54 * zookeeper could make some
20090109 23:02:01 * Shadow_Master would not object
20090109 23:02:18< zookeeper> random drips of water and some rock rolling sounds with a lot of reverb, doesn't sound too hard
20090109 23:02:42< zookeeper> ok, but i'm not going to do that now, so please pester me about that daily for the next week or so and you might get them
20090109 23:03:50< grzywacz> The free sounds project is there to help, possibly.
20090109 23:07:51< zookeeper> yeah, i'll have to scavenge some free sounds to use as a base since i don't think i have a lot of suitable ones ready myself.
20090109 23:07:58-!- YogiHH [i=YogiHH@c147181.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090109 23:08:06< Sirp> wb YogiHH 
20090109 23:08:09< Shadow_Master> hail YogiHH 
20090109 23:08:16< YogiHH> hi guys
20090109 23:08:19< zookeeper> what sort of other things might you hear in such a place? bubbling lava is one of course.
20090109 23:08:51< grzywacz> zookeeper, howling wind
20090109 23:09:05< zookeeper> maybe a lone rock falling and bouncing down a chasm every now and then for chasms, and howling wind too
20090109 23:09:07< grzywacz> zookeeper, bats
20090109 23:09:38-!- busfahrer [n=busfahre@unixboard/user/busfahrer] has quit ["leaving"]
20090109 23:09:45< Shadow_Master> well, in scenarios 20, 22B, 23B there should be these creatures making random sounds... the shaxthals, you know
20090109 23:09:46< zookeeper> the player might take that as a hint that there'll be bats ahead
20090109 23:10:02< zookeeper> but in what cave scenario there isn't :P?
20090109 23:10:27< grzywacz> zookeeper, maybe not if the sound has an elusive touch to it
20090109 23:12:36< zookeeper> hmm, rats.
20090109 23:13:46< grzywacz> a-sound-of-something-running-away-to-hide-in-the-dark
20090109 23:14:13< zookeeper> oh..._that_ sound.
20090109 23:14:49< zookeeper> i'm not exactly getting an aural image of that in my head right now :p
20090109 23:15:04< Shadow_Master> /sounds/ambient/shaxthal-roam-*.ogg are my pitiful attempts at trying to be a zookeeper  :P
20090109 23:15:12< Shadow_Master> (#wesnoth-umc-dev...)
20090109 23:43:35-!- cib0 [n=cib@p4FD0E459.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."]
20090109 23:56:22< YogiHH> man, that python discussion is pretty - persistent :/
20090109 23:56:35 * YogiHH just read the forum
20090109 23:56:44< Shadow_Master> yes.. it is. :(
20090109 23:59:59 * loonycyborg thinks that ivan_i became a victim of the Curse of Greyface :)
--- Log closed Sat Jan 10 00:00:23 2009