--- Log opened Tue Jan 20 00:00:13 2009
20090120 00:00:55< fnaek> I first saw the different leaders stuff  in the unstoppable legion, and it was working; 
20090120 00:01:22< fabi> does the unstoppable legion work in current wesnoth?
20090120 00:01:41< fnaek> don't know. Don't think it ever made it past 1.4
20090120 00:03:34< fabi> Elvish_Pillage2 did this in terror in elfland as well.
20090120 00:04:16< fnaek> but that also din't make it too far
20090120 00:05:16< fabi> No
20090120 00:05:53< fabi> Let's consider the current persistence implementation not suitable for our needs.
20090120 00:05:58-!- ilor [n=user@unaffiliated/ilor] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 00:06:32< fnaek> Fabi, I used a savegame from scenario 13, where the delfador_store variable is set and jumped to 15;
20090120 00:06:55< fabi> did it work?
20090120 00:06:57< fnaek> Delfador is not there, so I get what you get. But if I play through scenario 14, he is
20090120 00:11:21< fabi> Let's set him from a variable, and not recall him.
20090120 00:11:41< fabi> we can unstore units to a recall list as well
20090120 00:12:04< fabi> that will work
20090120 00:12:22< fnaek> I guess he is automatically because in shadows he appears as side=1
20090120 00:14:01< fabi> isn't he always side1?
20090120 00:15:05< fnaek> in shadows he is a stored variable that appears  on side 1. WML wise he is justa  variable, no?
20090120 00:16:48< fabi> Well, he is in the recall list from there on. The recall list is sometimes confused.
20090120 00:17:35< fnaek> plus he can recruit, I think that was also before your canrecruit change
20090120 00:17:40< fabi> But if we unstore him in 15 the recall list isn't our problem any more. If it is fine after 15 again.
20090120 00:19:10< fnaek> Hm... So  make an appearance in 14, when victory store him again, reall in 15 with Kalenz the leader, then when victory kill elves and  make Delf canrecruit?
20090120 00:20:23< fabi> wait, maybe a missing canrecrute=yes in 15. 
20090120 00:21:41< fabi> you can disable fog with :fog. This is useful for seeing Delfador in 14.
20090120 00:22:12< fnaek> You can see Delfador in 14, no problem. Fog clears around him because he is one of side 1
20090120 00:23:07< fabi> not with :n command
20090120 00:23:26< fnaek> ok,
20090120 00:23:56< fabi> no, didn't work. still a new journeyman delfador.
20090120 00:24:00< fnaek> (since I have savegames, I'm not sure this is better than using the saveagmes)
20090120 00:24:39< fabi> We need to get the n and cl thing working for the whole campaign. This is much better for playtesting.
20090120 00:25:01< fabi> every scenario should work when skipped to directly from the first scenario.
20090120 00:25:12< fabi> with n or with cl
20090120 00:25:21< fabi> LoW does this.
20090120 00:25:36-!- loonycyborg [n=sergey@79.139.247.74] has quit ["Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz"]
20090120 00:26:18-!- loonybot [n=loonybot@79.139.247.74] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090120 00:26:40-!- fnaek [n=fnaek@athedsl-4496853.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
20090120 00:54:34-!- Thrawnwesnoth [n=nick@pool-72-93-176-149.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 00:57:30-!- ABCD [n=abcd@wikipedia/ABCD] has quit [Client Quit]
20090120 00:57:58-!- ABCD_ is now known as ABCD
20090120 01:01:34-!- Turuk [n=JDiSab@FUSE-WS1-208-102-202-188.fuse.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
20090120 01:04:33-!- [Relic] [n=[Relic]@adsl-76-229-202-137.dsl.milwwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 01:05:36< [Relic]> Hello :)
20090120 01:05:57-!- noy [n=Noy@70.70.128.133] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 01:08:06-!- Turuk [n=JDiSab@FUSE-WS1-208-102-202-188.fuse.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 01:14:44-!- Canageek [n=Canageek@vlan360-044-116.maconline.McMaster.CA] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 01:15:09-!- Canageek [n=Canageek@vlan360-044-116.maconline.McMaster.CA] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)]
20090120 01:18:05< CIA-6> dave * r32236 /trunk/src/server/ (simple_wml.cpp simple_wml.hpp): attempt to fix server crashes with ordered simple_wml
20090120 01:30:04-!- Thrawnwesnoth [n=nick@pool-72-93-176-149.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"]
20090120 01:33:55-!- JW1 [n=X@c-71-57-85-168.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 01:47:43-!- thespaceinvader [n=chatzill@91.108.184.215] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008120122]"]
20090120 02:13:38-!- Turuk [n=JDiSab@FUSE-WS1-208-102-202-188.fuse.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
20090120 02:13:53-!- Turuk [n=JDiSab@FUSE-WS1-208-102-202-188.fuse.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 02:20:37-!- mjs-de [n=mjs-de@vpw.wh.Uni-Dortmund.DE] has quit ["On the road again"]
20090120 02:33:25-!- Turuk [n=JDiSab@FUSE-WS1-208-102-202-188.fuse.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
20090120 02:33:39-!- Turuk [n=JDiSab@FUSE-WS1-208-102-202-188.fuse.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 03:08:55-!- noy [n=Noy@70.70.128.133] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
20090120 03:23:25-!- Elvish_Pillager [n=eli@66-189-14-42.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 03:24:32-!- Elvish_Pillage2 [n=eli@66-189-14-42.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
20090120 03:25:53-!- Elvish_Pillager [n=eli@66-189-14-42.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit]
20090120 04:09:02-!- Ivanovic_ [n=ivanovic@dtmd-4db2b112.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 04:10:48-!- noy [n=Noy@d75-157-52-251.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 04:15:43-!- Shadow_Master [n=ignacior@unaffiliated/shadowmaster/x-275924] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 04:25:35-!- Ivanovic [n=ivanovic@dtmd-4db2b998.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090120 04:27:01-!- Ivanovic_ is now known as Ivanovic
20090120 04:34:02-!- noy [n=Noy@d75-157-52-251.bchsia.telus.net] has quit []
20090120 04:36:13-!- Shadow_Master [n=ignacior@unaffiliated/shadowmaster/x-275924] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090120 04:38:11-!- Shadow_Master [n=ignacior@unaffiliated/shadowmaster/x-275924] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 04:38:19-!- noy [n=Noy@d75-157-52-251.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 04:42:09-!- Shadow_Master [n=ignacior@unaffiliated/shadowmaster/x-275924] has quit [Client Quit]
20090120 05:24:39-!- fabi [n=fabi@e179056045.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
20090120 05:25:09-!- fabi [n=fabi@g226131134.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 07:16:02-!- crimson_penguin [n=ben@64.201.60.214] has quit ["Leaving"]
20090120 07:29:57-!- [Relic] [n=[Relic]@adsl-76-229-202-137.dsl.milwwi.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving"]
20090120 09:17:51-!- Sirp_ [n=me@c-71-198-3-104.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"]
20090120 09:54:05-!- fabi [n=fabi@g226131134.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090120 10:12:05< CIA-6> ivanovic * r32237 /trunk/ (changelog players_changelog po/wesnoth-trow/zh_TW.po): 
20090120 10:12:05< CIA-6> updated Chinese (Traditional) translation
20090120 10:12:05< CIA-6> changelog fixes
20090120 10:12:14-!- loonybot [n=loonybot@79.139.247.74] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 10:12:53-!- loonycyborg [n=sergey@79.139.247.74] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 10:17:13-!- busfahrer [n=busfahre@unixboard/user/busfahrer] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 10:27:02-!- IRSeekBot3 [n=IRSeekLo@ip-68-178-158-148.ip.secureserver.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 10:27:56-!- IRSeekBot3 [n=IRSeekLo@ip-68-178-158-148.ip.secureserver.net] has quit [K-lined]
20090120 10:36:10-!- ilor_ [n=user@unaffiliated/ilor] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 10:45:36-!- ilor [n=user@unaffiliated/ilor] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090120 10:57:47-!- Repsa_Jih [n=jasper@88.197.149.165] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 10:58:26-!- Repsa_Jih [n=jasper@88.197.149.165] has left #wesnoth-dev []
20090120 11:05:52-!- noy [n=Noy@d75-157-52-251.bchsia.telus.net] has quit []
20090120 11:06:22-!- JW1 [n=X@c-71-57-85-168.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit []
20090120 11:18:47-!- zookeeper [n=l@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe9ff800-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 11:29:12-!- Turuk [n=JDiSab@FUSE-WS1-208-102-202-188.fuse.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
20090120 11:29:27-!- Turuk [n=JDiSab@FUSE-WS1-208-102-202-188.fuse.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 11:39:13-!- busfahrer [n=busfahre@unixboard/user/busfahrer] has quit ["leaving"]
20090120 11:50:31-!- ilor_ [n=user@unaffiliated/ilor] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
20090120 11:51:09-!- thespaceinvader [n=chatzill@91.108.184.215] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 11:59:31-!- Elvish_Pillager [n=eli@66-189-14-42.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 12:20:28-!- busfahrer [n=busfahre@wlan237-001.wlan.uni-ulm.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 12:33:31-!- busfahrer [n=busfahre@unixboard/user/busfahrer] has quit ["leaving"]
20090120 12:34:07-!- CIA-6 [n=CIA@208.69.182.149] has quit []
20090120 12:39:19-!- CIA-6 [n=CIA@208.69.182.149] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 13:08:02-!- busfahrer [n=busfahre@unixboard/user/busfahrer] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 13:11:23-!- busfahrer [n=busfahre@unixboard/user/busfahrer] has quit [Client Quit]
20090120 13:11:34-!- busfahrer [n=busfahre@unixboard/user/busfahrer] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 13:13:08-!- busfahrer [n=busfahre@unixboard/user/busfahrer] has quit [Client Quit]
20090120 13:13:17-!- busfahrer [n=busfahre@unixboard/user/busfahrer] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 13:24:15-!- busfahrer [n=busfahre@unixboard/user/busfahrer] has quit ["leaving"]
20090120 13:28:25-!- busfahrer [n=busfahre@unixboard/user/busfahrer] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 13:29:52-!- busfahrer [n=busfahre@unixboard/user/busfahrer] has quit [Client Quit]
20090120 13:33:58-!- busfahrer [n=busfahre@unixboard/user/busfahrer] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 13:34:13-!- busfahrer [n=busfahre@unixboard/user/busfahrer] has quit [Client Quit]
20090120 13:34:44-!- busfahrer [n=busfahre@unixboard/user/busfahrer] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 13:50:43-!- stikonas [n=and@ctv-79-132-188-113.vinita.lt] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 14:33:31< CIA-6> ivanovic * r32238 /trunk/po/ (3 files in 3 dirs): updated Hungarian translation
20090120 14:34:26< CIA-6> ivanovic * r32239 /trunk/ (changelog players_changelog): updated changelog for last commit
20090120 15:32:40-!- busfahrer [n=busfahre@unixboard/user/busfahrer] has quit ["leaving"]
20090120 15:45:12-!- stikonas [n=and@ctv-79-132-188-113.vinita.lt] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090120 15:58:00-!- fabi [n=fabi@g226131134.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 16:05:30-!- crimson_penguin [n=ben@64.201.60.214] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 16:20:40-!- busfahrer [n=busfahre@unixboard/user/busfahrer] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 17:07:15< Ivanovic> hi
20090120 17:13:09< thespaceinvader> hi ivanovic
20090120 17:13:54-!- ilor [n=user@unaffiliated/ilor] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 17:16:25< crimson_penguin> hej Ivanovic 
20090120 17:40:23 * zookeeper scratches head
20090120 17:40:33< zookeeper> i was pretty sure i committed the new desert prowler ages ago.
20090120 17:40:56< zookeeper> and sentinel.
20090120 17:41:22< zookeeper> oh well, since no one seems interested in animating them, i'll just commit the new base frames without animations for now.
20090120 17:42:58-!- noy [n=Noy@d75-157-52-251.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 18:38:23-!- EdB [n=EdB@166.117.88-79.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 18:39:25-!- Elvish_Pillage2 [n=eli@66-189-14-42.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 18:41:25-!- Elvish_Pillager [n=eli@66-189-14-42.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090120 18:46:25-!- EdB [n=EdB@166.117.88-79.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090120 18:46:45-!- EdB [n=EdB@253.101.196-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 18:49:15-!- [Relic] [n=[Relic]@adsl-76-229-202-137.dsl.milwwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 18:50:25< [Relic]> Hello :)
20090120 18:51:08< loonycyborg> Hello :?
20090120 18:51:14< [Relic]> :)
20090120 18:51:19< loonycyborg> :?
20090120 19:17:17-!- busfahrer [n=busfahre@unixboard/user/busfahrer] has quit ["leaving"]
20090120 19:44:48-!- Patterner [n=Psyche@g224106230.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
20090120 19:49:09-!- Psyche^ [n=Psyche@g224111044.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 19:49:10-!- Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
20090120 20:00:29-!- BenUrban [n=benurban@unaffiliated/benurban] has quit ["Power failu"]
20090120 20:00:42-!- BenUrban [n=benurban@c-68-49-10-243.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 20:11:44-!- EdB [n=EdB@253.101.196-77.rev.gaoland.net] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"]
20090120 20:34:58-!- kitty_ [n=kitty@e180200059.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 20:35:05< CIA-6> ivanovic * r32240 /trunk/po/ (wesnoth-anl/hu.po wesnoth-low/hu.po): updated Hungarian translation
20090120 20:35:44< thespaceinvader> evening kitty_
20090120 20:36:06< kitty_> thespaceinvader: evening - just writing a comment for you ;)
20090120 20:36:19< thespaceinvader> thankies =)
20090120 20:36:49< kitty_> i start believing i'm a real nuisiance with all those ddetails - glad you take it so well!
20090120 20:38:33< thespaceinvader> it is a bit of an annoyance at times, but we seem to take it to the point whereby you being satisfied and me being tired of making niggling changes fall at about the same point...
20090120 20:38:34< thespaceinvader> =D
20090120 20:38:56< kitty_> :D
20090120 20:39:58< thespaceinvader> it makes the whole thing better, in the end
20090120 20:40:12< thespaceinvader> and i learn from it
20090120 20:40:24< Ivanovic> hi kitty_
20090120 20:40:35< kitty_> hi Ivanovic 
20090120 20:40:38< thespaceinvader> it's notable that less time seems to elapse between sketch and commit these days =D
20090120 20:40:44< Ivanovic> have you already changed your mind regarding elornas (or whatever his name is) and the portrait moving to the left?
20090120 20:40:45< Ivanovic> ;)
20090120 20:41:36< kitty_> Ivanovic: ? jet wanted elonas to be taken out... and no for the mirroring! pah!
20090120 20:42:19< kitty_> i try to make all my new portraits mirrorable but i really had to redo those 5 (?) old ones to make them lok good for both sides...
20090120 20:44:05-!- Turuk_ [n=JDiSab@FUSE-WS1-208-102-202-188.fuse.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 20:49:32-!- Dragonking [n=dk@chello084010045237.chello.pl] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 20:51:56-!- Turuk [n=JDiSab@FUSE-WS1-208-102-202-188.fuse.net] has quit [Connection timed out]
20090120 20:52:54-!- Netsplit kubrick.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: Smar, Patterner
20090120 21:00:35-!- ABCD [n=abcd@wikipedia/ABCD] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090120 21:04:52-!- Turuk_ [n=JDiSab@FUSE-WS1-208-102-202-188.fuse.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
20090120 21:07:01< fabi> Sirp: ping
20090120 21:09:54-!- Turuk [n=JDiSab@FUSE-WS1-208-102-202-188.fuse.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 21:10:30-!- Netsplit over, joins: Smar, Patterner
20090120 21:13:39< thespaceinvader> kitty_: new version uploaded.  If this one suits, I'll commit
20090120 21:14:02< kitty_> thespaceinvader: give me some minutes
20090120 21:14:07< thespaceinvader> sure
20090120 21:14:17< thespaceinvader> i'll be looking for beard inspiration
20090120 21:14:23< thespaceinvader> http://www.worldbeardchampionships.com/Gallery/gallery.html
20090120 21:15:35< kitty_> some impressive specimen! eduardo is so cool (but not very dwarven...)
20090120 21:20:17< kitty_> thespaceinvader: nearly perfect ;) last minute crits: the new beard below his lip doesn't look overshadowed by his lips and is too thick now. upper lip should be even darker (look how much beard there is over it!). still missing the shadow below his left eyebrow. and why don't you want the runes to be engraved?
20090120 21:22:03< thespaceinvader> i wouldn't mind them being engraved, but i'm having difficulty getting the effect right
20090120 21:24:17< kitty_> new layer set to negative multiply, opacity about 60%. choose a mid yellow of the stick and draw little (a bit irregular) lines (witha tiny hard edged brush) below the dark ones (because the light comes from above)...
20090120 21:28:58< thespaceinvader> thanks
20090120 21:30:32< kitty_> at least that works for me...
20090120 21:39:17< thespaceinvader> kitty_: another version uloaded
20090120 21:39:23< thespaceinvader> *uploaded
20090120 21:41:50< kitty_> if you don't start thinking about killing me now - tone the highlight in the right eye down and then call him done :P
20090120 21:42:13< thespaceinvader> lol ok, i'll do that then commit without uploading
20090120 21:42:33< thespaceinvader> his right, or stage right?
20090120 21:42:50< kitty_> stage, soory
20090120 21:42:54< kitty_> *sorry
20090120 21:43:00< thespaceinvader> no worries, that was what i though
20090120 21:43:02< thespaceinvader> t
20090120 21:44:40< fabi> kitty_: May I ask you to draw the missing story Images for DM to make sure they are in the same style?
20090120 21:44:56< kitty_> fabi: no :P
20090120 21:45:06< kitty_> i just have no time at all atm
20090120 21:46:11< kitty_> and i think i never started doing story images for any campaign at all - so i don't know about which style consistency you talk about
20090120 21:47:03< thespaceinvader> fabi: do you mean portraits?
20090120 21:47:11< fabi> thespaceinvader: yes
20090120 21:47:22< kitty_> i still have no time.
20090120 21:47:59< kitty_> and if i had time i'd finish iftu and then return to the generic mainline ones. after that - perhaps...
20090120 21:56:14 * thespaceinvader looks forward to seeing these portraits in game =)
20090120 21:56:17< CIA-6> thespaceinvader * r32241 /trunk/ (5 files in 4 dirs): Add my portrait for the Dwarf Dragonguard, update changelogs
20090120 21:56:30-!- grzywacz [n=grzywacz@moinmoin/developer/karol] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 21:57:56-!- kitty_ [n=kitty@e180200059.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit []
20090120 22:02:43< Sirp> fabi: pong
20090120 22:04:17< fabi> Sirp: Can you make information on wesnoth stats available that give me an idea about the status of the players army? Some sort of median recurit list that only stores the number of each unit type pherhaps.
20090120 22:04:56-!- stikonas [n=and@ctv-79-132-188-113.vinita.lt] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 22:05:49< Sirp> fabi: I can see what I can do. Presenting information about the army will be quite difficult though, I think.
20090120 22:06:44< fabi> Sirp: I would like to have a mechanismen to download them and load it into campaigns for playtesting/balancing.
20090120 22:06:55< fabi> No need to display it online.
20090120 22:08:24< Sirp> fabi: to download what? saves?
20090120 22:08:41< fabi> The idea is, start a campaign switch to a scenario with debug cl and have that median recall list available for balancing issues.
20090120 22:09:02< Sirp> fabi: right. It's just difficult to define what a "medican recall list" is. :)
20090120 22:09:52< Sirp> if I have three players who reached a scenario. One had three elvish rangers and an Elvish Shyde. One had two Paladins and an Elvish Ranger. One had two Elvish Captains and a Paladin. What is the 'median' of this?
20090120 22:10:32< Soliton> one and a half great mages!
20090120 22:10:48< Soliton> (yeah, i know what the median is..)
20090120 22:11:21< loonycyborg> Or five sylphs :P
20090120 22:11:59< fabi> Sirp: I see your point.
20090120 22:12:29< Soliton> you could just allow all shaman challenges! that would solve it nicely.
20090120 22:13:05< Soliton> maybe make it all single-unit-type challenges if you feel generous.
20090120 22:13:18< fabi> Stop laughing for a moment.
20090120 22:13:32< fabi> please
20090120 22:14:37< Soliton> :-(
20090120 22:14:47< fabi> :-)
20090120 22:15:30< fabi> Maybe the experience that was spend can be used to buy upgrades.
20090120 22:15:51< Sirp> fabi: I mean it's possible we could come up with a "typical" recall list, but it would probably involve a good amount of fudging and guess work.
20090120 22:17:07< Soliton> rather convert to gold.
20090120 22:17:26< Soliton> scenarios should be solvable with only level 1 recruits anyway, right?
20090120 22:17:28< Sirp> fabi: I guess for one thing it would be nice to just be able to click on a scenario and then see the recall list of every player who made it to that scenario.
20090120 22:17:39< Sirp> Soliton: no, not at all.
20090120 22:18:19< Soliton> well, depends on difficulty but on anything but hard i think they should.
20090120 22:18:33< Sirp> if they were, then our campaigns would be very easy for a good player
20090120 22:18:35< Soliton> not no recalls and minimum gold mind you.
20090120 22:19:02< Sirp> Soliton: on easy they should be able to. On medium perhaps a very strong player should be able to. On hard you're thrown to the wolves.
20090120 22:19:07< Soliton> of course advanced units can be a lot more valuable than their cost.
20090120 22:19:43< Soliton> Sirp: yeah, that's what i meant basically. :-)
20090120 22:19:56< zookeeper> oh, looks like an interesting discussion. i'm not sure if i have absolutely anything to say, though.
20090120 22:19:59< Sirp> fabi: I think I have an idea that might do something like what you want.
20090120 22:20:29< Sirp> fabi: of course, if you could find a skilled Perl/Python/whatever programmer who wanted to implement all this, it would be nice. :)
20090120 22:21:55< fabi> Sirp: Please explain your plans.
20090120 22:22:21< Ivanovic> Sirp: what do you think of the proposal to display a popup (everytime) before sending data with a checkbox "do not ask me again"
20090120 22:22:31< Ivanovic> yes, i think this would be *a lot* better than the current approach
20090120 22:22:44< Ivanovic> and i think that comments like "hey, a game is not a website!" are 100% correct
20090120 22:23:12< Ivanovic> personally i really dislike any data being sent without my (explicit ;) ) consent
20090120 22:23:16< Sirp> Ivanovic: I don't really like it. I think it would be annoying.
20090120 22:23:17< zookeeper> fabi, why exactly would you need to make up a recall list for a player using :cl?
20090120 22:23:22< Ivanovic> Sirp: why?
20090120 22:23:31< Sirp> because people do not like popup boxes.
20090120 22:23:35< Ivanovic> if you don't want to see the popup again, just click the "do not ask again" box
20090120 22:23:46< Ivanovic> i vote for either this or deactivating sending data by default
20090120 22:24:38< fabi> zookeeper: I want to jump to a scenario and see if it's balanced without the need to rely on a savegame.
20090120 22:24:44< zookeeper> how about just not sending by default but making the letter blink or something (until it's clicked for the first time and the player needs to choose) to catch the user's attention but not forcing it on him?
20090120 22:24:50< zookeeper> fabi, right
20090120 22:25:25< Ivanovic> zookeeper: yes, this could work, too
20090120 22:25:34< Sirp> If a sufficient number of developers really want to show a popup, I'd really prefer that than not sending data by default. However personally I don't really think it's an issue.
20090120 22:25:34< zookeeper> you can even make the checkbox be toggled on by default when the player clicks on that letter
20090120 22:25:37< Ivanovic> though we have no code side support for such a feature atm
20090120 22:28:03< Sirp> another alternative would be when you start a campaign, have a check box at the bottom of the start campaign dialog, "automatically send my statistics to the developers so they can improve Wesnoth" at the bottom
20090120 22:28:18-!- JonW [i=chatzill@cpc2-finc11-0-0-cust348.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 22:28:49< Ivanovic> yes, this would work, too
20090120 22:28:51< Ivanovic> i just really dislike the policy of sending data without really asking
20090120 22:30:17< Ivanovic> might be that this dislike is a lot stronger in europe than in the US, but here among the "geeks" (at least) it is very common
20090120 22:31:29< Sirp> I think it is fairly strong in the US. We just distinguish between data that could actually be used malevolently by some corporation for marketing purposes and data which is clearly and obviously harmless in every possible way. :p
20090120 22:32:04< zookeeper> Sirp, the user still just has to trust your word about which kind of data it is.
20090120 22:32:21< Turuk> Amazon Co. got in big trouble in the US for using the same mindset. ;)
20090120 22:32:28< zookeeper> unless they fancy digging into the source and all that
20090120 22:33:00< Sirp> zookeeper: so? The user has to trust my word that we're not sending data at all or erasing their hard drive or sending their porn collection to their girlfriend.
20090120 22:34:16< zookeeper> Sirp, well, in that case why would anyone ever have a problem with any of their apps calling home? AFAIK people don't like that because they don't know what they're sending, but would still trust the app not to erase their hard drives.
20090120 22:34:49< ilor> Sirp: if the user has a firewall, they could be notified that Wesnoth is sending *something*
20090120 22:34:55< zookeeper> maybe i'm in ...yeah
20090120 22:35:01< Sirp> zookeeper: the usual reason people don't like it is because the applications tend to send data that can be used for corporate marketing purposes. 
20090120 22:35:42< Sirp> that's why I said, in the US we usually distinguish *what* is being sent.
20090120 22:36:10< Sirp> ilor: and if they have a packet sniffer they can pretty easily see *what* is being sent too.  Also if they have a firewall they can easily block it being sent if they want. :)
20090120 22:36:17< zookeeper> usually i have a firewall which tells me when some app tries to connect somewhere, and it's annoying when they do it for some non-obvious reason even though i haven't told them to connect anywhere..
20090120 22:36:27 * zookeeper shrugs
20090120 22:37:30< Soliton> (and those "firewalls" are very common on windows.)
20090120 22:37:31< Sirp> anyhow, I'm fine with us putting a reasonable message to allow people to opt-out if they really don't want to participate for some reason.
20090120 22:38:32< fabi> Let's make collect data the default, and display the process itself. The user should be informed about the action by that wesnoth progress thing saying i am uploading data.
20090120 22:38:37< Soliton> Sirp: i think the bad thing is mostly that users might be surprised that wesnoth sends something and they have no idea what. once they know they probably don't care.
20090120 22:38:56-!- JW1 [n=X@dhcp66-158-7-239.kentlaw.edu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 22:41:17< Sirp> Soliton: that is why I make it get displayed on the title screen the first time you start Wesnoth.
20090120 22:41:28< Ivanovic> Sirp: *noone* sees this
20090120 22:41:34< Ivanovic> okay, maybe one out of a million
20090120 22:41:37< Ivanovic> but that is all!
20090120 22:41:40< Sirp> why are we displaying text if no-one sees it?
20090120 22:42:06< Ivanovic> to fill the space we got
20090120 22:42:14< Sirp> should we put an icon next to it or something to let people know how important it is?
20090120 22:42:16< Soliton> Sirp: it's not displayed when the send happens.
20090120 22:42:32< Soliton> i.e. when their firewall pops up.
20090120 22:44:43< Ivanovic> the strange thing is that several people will see their firewall popping up while just finishing a campaign scenario and one or two of those will ask themselves "what the hell is going on here, why does it want to connect to the internet, i am in a *singleplayer* game..."
20090120 22:45:03< zookeeper> yep
20090120 22:45:07< Ivanovic> do they see any explaination at that point that data will be sent and what it is?
20090120 22:46:48< Ivanovic> okay, time for me to head off to bed, n8
20090120 22:49:04-!- JW1 [n=X@dhcp66-158-7-239.kentlaw.edu] has quit []
20090120 22:53:20-!- fnaek [n=fnaek@athedsl-4509577.home.otenet.gr] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 22:53:32< fnaek> Hi fabi
20090120 22:53:40< fabi> hi fnaek
20090120 22:53:59< fnaek> I get Delfador a journeymany mage in scenario 15
20090120 22:54:07< fabi> oh no
20090120 22:54:40< fnaek> I'll try to rework this
20090120 22:54:48< fabi> wait
20090120 22:55:12< fabi> You started from scratch? Or load a savegame=
20090120 22:55:14< fabi> ?
20090120 22:55:29< fnaek> I loaded a savegame from scenario 14
20090120 22:55:42< fnaek> wait, I also get 20090121 00:47:51 error config: Could not open file data/TO_SAVE_THE_PRINCE
20090120 22:55:42< fnaek> 20090121 00:47:51 error config: Could not open file data/TO_SAVE_THE_PRINCE_BATTLE
20090120 22:56:36< fabi> That bug is only two missing pathfinder macros. Maybe ESR_ wants to help fixing it.
20090120 22:57:27< fabi> All savegames are lost. My commit gave Kalenz and Delfador a save_id. That breaks the compatibility of all savegames I believe.
20090120 22:59:04< fnaek> so I need to play from scratch
20090120 23:00:10< fabi> fnaek: Sorry, yes. But I couldn't see a better solution to fix the bug.
20090120 23:02:33< fnaek> ok. I just commited the prince's guards in scenario 15 and  changed King to prince
20090120 23:02:53< fnaek> I'll play from scratch after installing 1.5.8 trunk
20090120 23:03:26< fabi> fnaek: I didn't find that second disallaw_recruit that should forbid elves in 15.
20090120 23:07:35< fnaek> Yes, we should reinstate that; I think I took it off since it was not working
20090120 23:08:30< fnaek> Also, Delfadors recruits in Save the prince should be {ELVES}, not {LOAYLISTS}. Would that override the {YOUNG_DELFADOR} recruit which is LOYALISTS?
20090120 23:11:47-!- boucman [n=rosen@140.117.71-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 23:11:51< grzywacz> hey boucman
20090120 23:11:56-!- boucman [n=rosen@140.117.71-86.rev.gaoland.net] has left #wesnoth-dev []
20090120 23:12:06< fabi> fnaek: yes, it would.
20090120 23:13:39-!- Elvish_Pillager [n=eli@66-189-14-42.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 23:17:10< fnaek> ok, added the storing of elves
20090120 23:20:24< fabi> fnaek: I would like to give you the password for uploading but I have no idea where it is stored now. The _server.pbl file does not contain it anymore.
20090120 23:24:34< fnaek> fine, but I see no point right now.  Given the complains we have in the forums, I'd like to have something that plays to the end first before getting further user input
20090120 23:29:58-!- Elvish_Pillage2 [n=eli@66-189-14-42.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090120 23:32:53< fabi> fnaek: You want to playtest the whole campaign from start to end before doing a new release?
20090120 23:34:09< fabi> I don't think that this is necessary.
20090120 23:34:42< fabi> Most of the campaign worked and the persistence problem is solved for me here.
20090120 23:38:52-!- zookeeper [n=l@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe9ff800-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit []
20090120 23:46:56< fnaek> ok, it has to be done anyway to check that  it is balanced
20090120 23:47:20-!- JonW [i=chatzill@cpc2-finc11-0-0-cust348.4-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit ["Don't give up the fun has only just begun!"]
20090120 23:49:08< fnaek> fabi, I'll put a note on the forum
20090120 23:51:22-!- boucman [n=rosen@140.117.71-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090120 23:56:40-!- grzywacz [n=grzywacz@moinmoin/developer/karol] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090120 23:57:29-!- fnaek [n=fnaek@athedsl-4509577.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.3.12"]
--- Log closed Wed Jan 21 00:00:22 2009