--- Log opened Thu Feb 05 00:00:31 2009
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20090205 00:30:41< AI0867> adding the 128x128 version of the wesnoth-icon to data/core/images/transparent has a rather nice effect on narrator messages
20090205 00:33:35< CIA-70> ai0867 * r32613 /trunk/data/scenario-test.cfg: Fix portrait path in test scenario.
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20090205 00:40:11< Tigge> What does the Radius X Hex brush in the editor do?
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20090205 00:41:28< ikarius> hmm. how annoyed are folks likely to get at a wesnoth-newb (me) bouncing around some blue-sky ideas about developing a new engine?
20090205 00:41:51< ikarius> and asking questions about the existing wesnoth code
20090205 00:43:55< ikarius> i.e. should I keep quietly to myself and work out my own problems until I've got something reasonably significant, or will folks be willing to chat while I'm still figuring major bits out?
20090205 00:49:47< AI0867> questions are fine, but most people will doubt a newbie will succesfully carry out an engine rewrite
20090205 00:50:04 * AI0867 misreads
20090205 00:50:13< AI0867> a new engine, not necessarily for wesnoth
20090205 00:51:55< ikarius> the basic concept is to break the engine into two parts; hard and soft;  the hard engine handling core functions like display, but the *game* would be done inside a soft engine which is mostly replaceable.
20090205 00:53:17< ikarius> the end-goal would be to arrive at a point where someone could implement things ranging from a relatively pure TBS to a full 4x with the soft engine
20090205 00:53:18< Sirp> ikarius: out of curiosity, what's your overall goal with this?
20090205 00:53:29< Sirp> ahhh.....you answered my question. :)
20090205 00:54:02< ikarius> It looks like there's quite a bit of flexibility in the existing engine, with WML, themes, etc.
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20090205 00:55:14< Sirp> ikarius: yes.
20090205 00:55:37< ikarius> I suspect it's not quite flexible enough to go to a 4x though
20090205 00:56:54< Sirp> some people have made scenarios that are essentially 4x games, as well as RPG scenarios, but of course, the further you get from the core game, the less engine support there is, and the more compromises you have to make. 
20090205 00:57:09< ikarius> Sirp- nod.  
20090205 00:57:47< ikarius> if most of the gameplay were handled in scripting language, it could become more flexible
20090205 00:58:57< Sirp> ikarius: basically though, a "4x" is a very wide and complex field of games. Making something fully generic that could allow any type of 4x game would, imho be rather infeasible.
20090205 00:58:59< ikarius> scripting language could register functions to be called on events- i.e. beginning of turn, end of turn,  etc
20090205 00:59:03< Sirp> you have to draw the flexibility line somewhere.
20090205 00:59:33< Sirp> ikarius: have you written a 4x game before?
20090205 00:59:46< grzywacz> There's a nice engine for all kinds of games out there. It's called C++. ;)
20090205 01:00:07< ikarius> no- the most I've done was contributing various code to original angband and a few variants.
20090205 01:00:30< ikarius> I only recently stumbled upon wesnoth
20090205 01:00:31< Sirp> grzywacz: my point exactly. :)
20090205 01:01:07< Sirp> ikarius: okay, so having never written a 4x game before, don't you think that writing a generic engine, designed to play any kind of 4x game, as a first attempt seems a little errmmm.......ambitious? :)
20090205 01:01:57< grzywacz> Sirp, I think Free Orion is kind of going in that direction. I believe they have pluggable rule systems. ;)
20090205 01:02:26< Sirp> grzywacz: well we are "kind of going in that direction" too
20090205 01:02:35< Sirp> though more a generic battle game
20090205 01:02:41< grzywacz> True...
20090205 01:03:00< Sirp> however, I think that is the right way to do it: to make a game, and then once you're successful, try to leverage your technology and generalize it
20090205 01:03:01< ikarius> I've written frameworks before. web dev framework, database access framework.  So I have a small amount of clue about what I'm after
20090205 01:04:02< Sirp> just writing a generic game engine to handle any type of game of type "X" is really really hard, in my opinion. And given the number of failed Open Source "engine" projects,  I think it's a common mistake to make.
20090205 01:04:16< ikarius> fair enough.
20090205 01:04:54< grzywacz> I think it's much easier to generalize an existing and working design rather than come up with a general one and fit some games into it. ;)
20090205 01:06:12< ikarius> perhaps after I've dug into the wesnoth source further I'll find it's more flexible than I suspected
20090205 01:06:31< Sirp> also I think it's really hard to boot strap an Open Source project like that. I mean, it's rare that one or even two or three people will have the energy and time and talent to make a good generic game engine AND a good game to go on top of it. And as long as you just have this engine that doesn't do anything more than play some sample, it's not all that likely that anyone who is talented and energized is going to stumble across your gam
20090205 01:07:40< Sirp> and that makes the "risk" of the project very very high. You can pour all this work into it, and then just end with a generic game engine that doesn't actually have a decent game built on top of it. Not to mention that it's actually incredibly hard to build something truly "generic" without concrete examples to work off of. Every time I try to build something generic, my first real "customer" has a long list of features which my supposed
20090205 01:07:52< Sirp> anyhow, sorry, I don't mean to discourage anyone. :)
20090205 01:08:07< grzywacz> "which my suppose"?
20090205 01:08:27< Sirp> "...which my supposedly generic engine doesn't support."
20090205 01:08:32< ikarius> 4x isn't really all that wildly varying a field though.  Generally you've got city/resource development, technology (or spell) development, unit development, diplomacy & combat
20090205 01:08:55< grzywacz> ikarius, in that case you really might be better off looking at freeciv/freecol/free orion :)
20090205 01:09:37< ikarius> grzywacz: I did look at freeciv, but hadn't run across the others.
20090205 01:09:44< ikarius> I'll take a look
20090205 01:09:50< Sirp> I'd say 4x is a very widely varying field, depending on what you define as "4x". To begin with, there are at least three types of boards that I know of that are very different (square based, hex based, or graph based -- typical for space games) 
20090205 01:10:45< grzywacz> Which are actually equivalent in terms of represented game space.
20090205 01:11:05< Sirp> then, there is diplomacy and a wide range of ways it might be conducted. Do you send off a message and receive a reply a few turns later? Do you negotiate immediately and face to face? What kind of negotiations are allowed?
20090205 01:11:25< Sirp> grzywacz: but still if you're building a generic display engine, supporting all of these equivalently is quite some effort.
20090205 01:11:33< grzywacz> Sirp, certainly.
20090205 01:12:24< Sirp> then there are unit display and movement rules: you click on a unit to move it? Do all the spaces it can move to light up like in Wesnoth and you click the destination? Do units have different commands when you click on them?
20090205 01:12:42< Sirp> as well as can units be combined? Uncombined? Can units get in ships or other vessels? Can units fly? Do flying units sit above ground?
20090205 01:13:27< Sirp> and then, do you have terrain improvements? What kinds? Roads? Mines? Do roads for instance form some kind of a graph? ....
20090205 01:15:38< ikarius> Sirp: you're asking questions faster than I can answer, but settling on one style of map (hex) would be acceptable to my ambition,  diplomacy is generally handled in an immediate fashion (can't recall the last game I played with time between initiating diplomacy and responses to diplomacy)...
20090205 01:17:24< ikarius> things should be flexible to handle either single-unit or stackable units, vessels is a good question, and terrain improvements would be an interesting challenge probably not handled in a 1.0 version
20090205 01:18:18< ikarius> most of diplomacy should be soft-engine though, not base engine
20090205 01:18:28< Sirp> ikarius: I'm really just pointing out all the complexities. :)
20090205 01:18:47< ikarius> Sirp: hokay :)
20090205 01:18:48< Sirp> ikarius: basically though I think that e.g. having a "hex map display library" is quite a good idea. Having a "generic game engine" not so much.
20090205 01:19:00< Sirp> but that's just me.
20090205 01:19:27< ikarius> what I'm thinking of is the base engine handling data storage, map display, and function dispatch
20090205 01:19:34< Sirp> however this was a question that did come up a lot during Wesnoth's early development, and I'm pretty sure that if I had chosen the generic game engine option, the project would have been a dismal failure that no-one would have ever heard of.
20090205 01:20:11< Sirp> and, if I was designing a 4x game, I think I would at least try time-delayed diplomacy; I personally rather like that concept.
20090205 01:20:17< Sirp> (and I think MOO3 had it)
20090205 01:21:11< ikarius> Sirp: how much of Wesnoth is python versus compiled?
20090205 01:21:44< Sirp> ikarius: we use virtually no python in Wesnoth.
20090205 01:21:59< ikarius> k
20090205 01:22:19< Sirp> there is a Python AI component, but it is not very well designed from what I've heard, and few decent AI's have been made in it.
20090205 01:22:24< ikarius> I saw some references to python in the wiki
20090205 01:22:55< Sirp> we use Python for some AI things, and we have plenty of Python utilities and scripts.
20090205 01:23:02< ikarius> got it
20090205 01:23:06< Sirp> and we do have certain developers who are in favor of migrating more of the game to using Python.
20090205 01:24:05< ikarius> the basic core I'm thinking of is allowing python to register attributes for objects, and register functions to be called at event times
20090205 01:24:21 * Sirp needs a "I argued about whether Python is a useful language for a game engine for 4 hours on IRC and all I got was this lousy t-shirt!" t-shirt.
20090205 01:24:34< ikarius> Sirp: hah
20090205 01:26:22< ikarius> python, lua, whatever.  What I'd be after would be allowing folks to tweak on the game without needing compiler tools, all the various library dependencies, etc.
20090205 01:29:49< Sirp> sure.
20090205 01:30:20< Sirp> I just see that kind of thing as a "nice feature to have at the end" rather than the "one killer feature which I'm building my game around!!"
20090205 01:31:00< ikarius> Fair enough.
20090205 01:32:22< ikarius> I've just seen some *very* good work by end-users where they reworked civ4  "report" screens by writing XML files, and then there's the unbelievable interface flexibility achievable in world of warcraft with LUA scripting
20090205 01:32:55< Sirp> oh, sure, I think civ4's extensibility is great.
20090205 01:34:01< Sirp> making possibilities like that Fall From Heaven mod is pretty cool
20090205 01:34:06< ikarius> yep
20090205 01:34:40< Sirp> though, from what I understand of it, I think Wesnoth is about as extensible as Civ4. It just has a different "basis" though.
20090205 01:35:07< ikarius> looking at WML, there's a lot of flexibility already there
20090205 01:35:41< Sirp> yes.
20090205 01:35:59< Sirp> AFAIK though (and I'm not sure) in Civ4 you can't completely change the gameplay. You couldn't decide, for instance, that combat will work like in Wesnoth.
20090205 01:36:53< ikarius> I'd be interested in trying to add more flexibility at the base layer, and do more to allow defining and handling custom attributes for objects, and allowing game-functionality to be called from/replaced by  a scripting layer
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20090205 01:37:24< ikarius> you're right about the gameplay in civ4
20090205 01:38:27< ikarius> my interest in wesnoth is that there's a working engine to play with.
20090205 01:38:33< Sirp> ..and once you let people change the gameplay, then they're going to need to write themselves an AI to handle that gameplay....
20090205 01:38:41< Sirp> but it's not a 4x engine. :)
20090205 01:39:00< ikarius> yep, the AI is definitely a big hurdle
20090205 01:39:02< Sirp> if you're really interested in 4x type games, FreeCiv or FreeOrion might serve you better
20090205 01:39:30< Sirp> not that I'd want to discourage anyone from using Wesnoth of course. :)
20090205 01:40:20< ikarius> ... wow, freeorion appears to have come quite a long way
20090205 01:42:37< Sirp> I should try freeorion again
20090205 01:42:49< grzywacz> dependency hell
20090205 01:43:09< ikarius> I hate dependency hell
20090205 01:43:13< Sirp> ahhh yes
20090205 01:43:19< Sirp> we try to minimize deps on Wesnoth. :)
20090205 01:43:24< ikarius> of course, it's hell, so I think you're *supposed* to hate it.
20090205 01:43:30< Sirp> though we have been doing a worse and worse job of it lately
20090205 01:43:33< grzywacz> Some people like it hot.
20090205 01:45:06< ikarius> hmmm. not very friendly
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20090205 01:46:07< Sirp> is FreeOrion in C++ or in C?
20090205 01:46:26< ikarius> .... I don't see any source code for freeorion on sourceforge. Perhaps SVN?
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20090205 01:47:45< ikarius> c++
20090205 01:48:54< ikarius> ahh, there's an SVN link
20090205 01:50:32< ikarius> I'll take a bit of a look at it.
20090205 01:50:51< ikarius> but I really miss MoM/HoMM/Age of Wonders.
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20090205 02:59:09< [Relic]> Hello :)
20090205 02:59:36< Shadow_Master> ): eyB
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20090205 03:12:52< Shadow_Master> hi Sirp_ 
20090205 03:14:43< Sirp_> hi Shadow_Master 
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20090205 03:40:49< Shadow_Master> shikadibot: dir /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/images/units/nagas
20090205 03:40:50< shikadibot> Web interface URL to directory /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/images/units/nagas: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth/trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/images/units/nagas
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20090205 06:09:23< ESR_> Ivanovic: I finished the en_GB translation abnd am wondering why thid doesn't show on http://www.wesnoth.org/gettext/
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20090205 07:58:40< Ivanovic> ESR_: because some textdomains got new strings in while you were working on it
20090205 07:58:47< Ivanovic> just fetch the latest files and complete them
20090205 07:58:50< Ivanovic> http://www.wesnoth.org/gettext/index.lang.php?lang=en_GB&version=trunk
20090205 08:02:35< Ivanovic> what you currently see is the joy of working on a "moving target" though it is moving slowly atm
20090205 09:05:00< CIA-70> esr * r32614 /trunk/ (50 files in 3 dirs): Fix a bit of Dwarvish dialect - in translation, too.
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20090205 10:12:40< Tigge> The Landfill action i ANL.. What does it do?
20090205 10:14:10< CIA-70> esr * r32615 /trunk/po/ (15 files in 15 dirs): More Britishisms.
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20090205 10:16:07< Tigge> I guess it creates a ford hm.. 
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20090205 12:45:40< zookeeper> hmm, do betas really need to be forwards-compatible? i mean, isn't it enough if you can play 1.5.9 content on 1.6, why would you need to be able to also play 1.6 content on 1.5.9?
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20090205 16:59:22< cib_> hello
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20090205 17:00:04< loonycyborg> cib0: Ivanovic was looking for you :)
20090205 17:00:38< cib0> yeah, i noticed =)
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20090205 18:35:56 * cib0 wonders whether he should take his scooter to FOSDEM.
20090205 18:37:26< cib0> i really regretted not having it with me in our school trip to berlin.. then again, there will be no slavedrivers aka teachers forcing me to walk through the city all day..
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20090205 19:15:37< Shadow_Master> scooter? :p
20090205 19:18:49< zookeeper> faster, harder \o/
20090205 19:39:11-!- YogiHH [i=YogiHH@d157037.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090205 19:39:17< YogiHH> hello everyone
20090205 19:39:42< Shadow_Master> hi Yogi
20090205 19:40:00< YogiHH> to all FOSDEM visitors: do we have a plan where (or if at all) to meet tomorrow?
20090205 19:40:05< ikarius> question for folks-  is Oracle (forum nick) still around/ is WAIL still being developed? or did he appear to wander off?
20090205 19:40:45< Shadow_Master> ikarius: no news from him for months
20090205 19:40:52< YogiHH> wesbot: seen Oracle
20090205 19:40:53< Shadow_Master> ikarius: except some ML replies
20090205 19:40:53< wesbot> YogiHH: Sorry, I don't know of Oracle.
20090205 19:41:47< ikarius> gotcha.  I'm poking around at hooking some more python into Wesnoth, and if he was still active, I hoped to pow-wow with him to insure I wouldn't stop on work he was doing
20090205 19:43:22< Shadow_Master> ikarius: https://mail.gna.org/public/wesnoth-dev/2009-01/msg00083.html
20090205 19:43:28< Shadow_Master> there he says some stuff.
20090205 19:44:03-!- noy [n=Noy@d75-157-52-251.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090205 19:46:00< ikarius> Greg Copeland == Oracle, I take it.
20090205 19:46:11< Shadow_Master> yes.
20090205 19:46:15< ikarius> k
20090205 19:46:40< Shadow_Master> nonetheless, no new features can be added in 1.5.x.
20090205 19:46:59< Shadow_Master> if you submit patches that introduce new features, odds are they'll be postponed for 1.7.0-svn.
20090205 19:47:13< ikarius> that's fine- I'm OK with working locally and resyncing when 1.7 branch opens
20090205 19:47:14< YogiHH> AI0867, you got some info about meeting in Brussel tomorrow?
20090205 19:48:50-!- silene [n=plouf@ASte-Genev-Bois-152-1-26-107.w83-114.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090205 19:49:28< Shadow_Master> Turuk: you know I don't like rants in my PM inbox.
20090205 19:49:45< Turuk> :(
20090205 19:49:49< Turuk> I thought you might find humor in it.
20090205 20:04:48< Shadow_Master> wesbot: seen ilor_
20090205 20:04:49< wesbot> Shadow_Master: The person with the nick ilor_ last spoke 1d 18h ago.  2h 1m ago was here and on the channel #wesnoth with the message: Read error: 113 (No route to host)
20090205 20:05:17< Shadow_Master> is he in middle of his flight to Brussels? did he implement [replace_map]? if so, why isn't it documented in the wiki?
20090205 20:09:41< Shadow_Master> AI0867: http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/UnitWML the "advance_to" description is somewhat ambiguous
20090205 20:17:10-!- mjs-de [n=mjs-de@vpw.wh.uni-dortmund.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090205 20:20:40< Shadow_Master> valgrind: m_scheduler/scheduler.c:1110 (vgPlain_scheduler): the 'impossible' happened.
20090205 20:20:43< Shadow_Master> valgrind: VG_(scheduler), phase 3: run_innerloop detected host state invariant failure
20090205 20:20:48< Shadow_Master> wow.
20090205 20:21:32< Shadow_Master> trying again the same command worked though. ( valgrind --leak-check=full --show-reachable=yes ./wesnoth-debug )
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20090205 20:41:04< Shadow_Master> 20 minutes running valgrind :/
20090205 20:42:09< Shadow_Master> okay, now wesnoth really started behaving oddly. I didn't get all the AMLA choices this time
20090205 20:43:48-!- [Relic] [n=[Relic]@adsl-76-229-202-137.dsl.milwwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090205 20:44:44< [Relic]> Hello :)
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20090205 20:53:34< Shadow_Master> "Address 0x11757ef8 is not stack'd, malloc'd or (recently) free'd"
20090205 20:53:58< Shadow_Master> yeah, but where is it referencing that address? it seems I missed something from valgrind's docs
20090205 20:55:07< Shadow_Master> what is the wesnothian way to run it, again?
20090205 20:55:17< Shadow_Master> boucman: I submitted a bug report for the defense anims
20090205 20:55:47< boucman> yeah, but i won't fix it tonight, so fosdem it is...
20090205 20:55:58< Shadow_Master> yes, I know! have fun1
20090205 20:56:15< Shadow_Master> have you ever used valgrind btw?
20090205 20:57:31< Sirp> Shadow_Master: well, it doesn't mention it being the address of a static variable. Is that possible?
20090205 20:58:36< Shadow_Master> uh, valgrind doesn't track where the addresses are referenced then?
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20090205 20:59:31< Shadow_Master> anyway, I've reproduced the crash with a valgrind-less session and the first frame reported by gdb is... um suspicious
20090205 20:59:47< Shadow_Master> ... in std::vector<config*, std::allocator<config*> >::operator[] (this=0x28, __n=33) <- note the 'this' value
20090205 21:01:43< Shadow_Master> http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m6811c8c7 <- it would seem that some code is doing really awful stuff.
20090205 21:03:11< Shadow_Master> I'd say the valgrind log is more interesting anyway: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m490bf5b1
20090205 21:03:17< Sirp> Shadow_Master: basically that means someone is dereferencing a NULL pointer.
20090205 21:03:40< crimson_penguin> 0x28 is null?
20090205 21:04:33< Shadow_Master> it sounds more like someone is doing math with it :p
20090205 21:04:34< Sirp> crimson_penguin: no. But consider, struct A { int x; int y; vector<config*> v; }; A* a = NULL; a->v.push_back(); 
20090205 21:04:57< Sirp> with that code you will get a crash in vector::push_back. What do you think the address of 'this' will be in your crash?
20090205 21:05:10< crimson_penguin> ahh, right
20090205 21:05:19< Shadow_Master> loonybot: struct A { int x; int y; vector<config*> v; }; A* a = NULL; a->v.push_back();
20090205 21:05:20< loonybot> error: 'config' was not declared in this scope
20090205 21:05:39< Shadow_Master> loonybot: struct A { int x; int y; vector<int*> v; }; A* a = NULL; a->v.push_back(&x);
20090205 21:05:39< loonybot> error: expected constructor, destructor, or type conversion before '->' token
20090205 21:05:40-!- Turuk [n=Turuk@FUSE-WS1-208-102-202-188.fuse.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090205 21:06:09< Shadow_Master> loonybot: { struct A { int x; int y; vector<int*> v; }; int foo = 0; A* a = NULL; a->v.push_back(&foo); }
20090205 21:06:10< loonybot> Undefined behavior detected.
20090205 21:06:22< Shadow_Master> instead of a SIGSEGV? :/
20090205 21:06:32-!- cib0 [n=cib@p4FD0D813.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090205 21:07:10< Sirp> Shadow_Master: so do you have a backtrace?
20090205 21:07:27< Shadow_Master> Sirp: yup http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m6811c8c7
20090205 21:07:37< Ivanovic> hi
20090205 21:07:41< Ivanovic> home at last...
20090205 21:07:46< cib0> hey Ivanovic
20090205 21:07:49< Ivanovic> cib0: got my mail?
20090205 21:07:52< Shadow_Master> hi Ivanovic 
20090205 21:07:58< Sirp> basically if you have a crash with a pointer value that is within the first page, it means there's a NULL pointer dereference
20090205 21:08:23< Shadow_Master> I'd actually expected this to be 0x0 though
20090205 21:08:54< Shadow_Master> unless the platform has a funny definition for NULL
20090205 21:08:56< Sirp> Shadow_Master: in my example code, 'a' is 0x0
20090205 21:09:25< Sirp> that means that &a->x will be 0x0. &a->y will be 0x4, &a->v will be 0x8
20090205 21:09:35< Ivanovic> AI0867: so mordante will pick you up and drive with you over?
20090205 21:09:57< cib0> Ivanovic: oh, yeah, i got it
20090205 21:10:07< Ivanovic> has he given you a time when he will pick you up and how far is it from your home to brussels (approximately) so that i get an idea when you might be there
20090205 21:10:15< Sirp> Shadow_Master: in C, when you have ptr->member, all the compiler does is gets the offset of 'member' within the struct, and adds that offset to 'ptr' and returns it as the pointer
20090205 21:10:30< Sirp> anyway lunch, bbl. Bug me later if you don't understand.
20090205 21:10:31< Shadow_Master> Sirp: ah... I thought in C++ there was some kind of indirection there.
20090205 21:10:43< Shadow_Master> like a class/struct holding a pointer table for its fields.
20090205 21:11:06< Ivanovic> cib0: IMO it would be nice to know when you will probably arrive in brussels and to have a phone number, so that we can coordinate a little in brussels
20090205 21:11:46< Ivanovic> and at least i do need this data till tomorrow noon since then i will leave here and be without internet till having net at fosdem on saturday
20090205 21:12:20< Shadow_Master> no wlan public access points in the city?
20090205 21:13:24< Ivanovic> Shadow_Master: i don't expect any freely available ones
20090205 21:13:53< cib0> ok, im going to arrive in Brussels at the southern railway station at 5 pm tommorow
20090205 21:13:56< Shadow_Master> I think there is a (possibly outdated) list of public AP areas in some major cities in wikipedia
20090205 21:13:57< AI0867> Ivanovic: yes
20090205 21:14:06< Ivanovic> cib0: okay
20090205 21:14:30 * Ivanovic is currently not sure if we should meet at central station or at the hostel
20090205 21:14:55< ilor> speaking of fosdem, I passed that last exam and am a free man again :)
20090205 21:15:10< cib0> i dont have a mobile phone myself, but im taking my mom's, shall i add it to the forum post?(i guess i edit your initial post?)
20090205 21:15:29< YogiHH> Ivanovic, what about meeting in Brussel tomorrow?
20090205 21:16:40< YogiHH> Sirp: Have you got an idea if wesnoth is affected by this? http://www.mingw.org/wiki/wide_characters
20090205 21:16:50-!- AI0867 [n=ai@van-gessel.demon.nl] has quit ["leaving"]
20090205 21:17:18< Ivanovic> YogiHH: my current idea is that those staying at 2go4 meet there
20090205 21:17:31< Ivanovic> YogiHH: when will you arrive in brussels?
20090205 21:17:39< Shadow_Master> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Municipal_wireless_network
20090205 21:17:41< Ivanovic> cib0: yes, please do so
20090205 21:17:51< Shadow_Master> nothing about brussels unfortunately
20090205 21:17:52 * Ivanovic is having his lunch now, bbs
20090205 21:18:02< YogiHH> Ivanovic, at noon
20090205 21:18:45< Ivanovic> YogiHH: then you got lots of free time in town
20090205 21:18:52< Ivanovic> and we should consider meeting somewhere in the city
20090205 21:18:54< Shadow_Master> YogiHH: I think we aren't affected by those or the windows exe's would be impossible to build
20090205 21:19:24< Shadow_Master> it doesn't mention anything about runtime errors, so I'm just assuming.
20090205 21:19:26-!- stikonas [n=and@ctv-79-132-188-113.vinita.lt] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090205 21:19:39< Ivanovic> YogiHH: i expect to be at 2go4 at about 6pm
20090205 21:19:58-!- noy [n=Noy@d75-157-52-251.bchsia.telus.net] has quit ["GO, GET TO THE CHOPPAH!!!"]
20090205 21:20:06< Ivanovic> YogiHH: that is here: http://maps.google.de/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=%C3%89mile+Jacqmainlaan+99,+1000+Br%C3%BCssel,+Belgium&sll=51.151786,10.415039&sspn=23.477244,32.036133&ie=UTF8&z=16
20090205 21:20:27< YogiHH> damn, you can read my thoughts, i was just about going to check that out :-D
20090205 21:20:58< Shadow_Master> looks like AI is having problems with his laptop's HDD again
20090205 21:22:27< YogiHH> Ivanovic: i am actually open to anything. We might meet there or somewhere in town. Just tell me what's best for you (i will be using public transports).
20090205 21:22:34-!- AI0867 [n=ai@van-gessel.demon.nl] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090205 21:23:31< cib0> do you guys know by chance whether they usually have outlets in the trains? :p
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20090205 21:30:23< Ivanovic> cib0: stop dreaming...
20090205 21:30:50< cib0> hey, i really know of trains that had
20090205 21:31:00< cib0> i used to charge my gameboy there :p
20090205 21:31:02< Ivanovic> YogiHH: to town it is a little more than 1km (you know, the place where we had dinner on sunday last year)
20090205 21:31:12< Ivanovic> cib0: it is *very* rare...
20090205 21:31:26< Ivanovic> some newer ice got them, but often they are broken
20090205 21:31:35< Shadow_Master> wow, outlets in a train. :p
20090205 21:31:48< Ivanovic> YogiHH: what do you think about meeting at about 6pm at the lobby (or in front of) 2go4?
20090205 21:32:00< YogiHH> Ivanovic, sounds good to me
20090205 21:32:03< Ivanovic> YogiHH: i hope to be there at this time, if i don't manage, i will send an sms
20090205 21:32:09< Ivanovic> noyga should already be there
20090205 21:32:13< YogiHH> alright
20090205 21:32:23< Ivanovic> ilor: will you find your way over to 2go4 and manage to be there at 6pm?
20090205 21:32:36< Noyga> yes
20090205 21:32:50< Ivanovic> cib0: most likely you directly want to head over there from the south station
20090205 21:33:03< Ivanovic> directions on getting there: http://www.2go4.be/quality/en/directions.htm
20090205 21:33:16< Ivanovic> once there we should decide on how to continue
20090205 21:33:30< cib0> Ivanovic: yup, i guess
20090205 21:33:35< Ivanovic> that is we could go to the beer party or just hang out in some restaurant like last year
20090205 21:34:00< Ivanovic> and this year i got a (rather) new mobile phone so my battery might survive all evening
20090205 21:34:08< Ivanovic> not like last year when it was dead around 5pm
20090205 21:35:41< cib0> uhm.. how does that stuff even work? when im in belgium, do i still have the germany prefix?
20090205 21:35:52< Ivanovic> yes
20090205 21:36:02< Ivanovic> since your number is registered in germany
20090205 21:36:18< Ivanovic> and all incoming calls as well as all outgoing ones are international (so expensive...)
20090205 21:37:08< cib0> so i simply replace the 0 with +49?
20090205 21:37:09< Ivanovic> okay, got my "magic maps" all prepared and ready to use
20090205 21:37:11< Ivanovic> jupp
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20090205 21:37:15< cib0> ok, thanks
20090205 21:37:21< ilor> Ivanovic: I'll most likely be there quite a bit sooner
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20090205 21:37:44< cib0> got a pic of myself on the thread, too
20090205 21:37:49< ilor> Ivanovic: got the locations on my maps and 2go4 seems really close to the centraal station
20090205 21:37:55< Ivanovic> that is: got many screenshots from maps.google.com of brussels as well as some printed out with "handwritten notes" about locations like the place for the beer event
20090205 21:38:10< Ivanovic> ilor: it is about 1.3km (considering what google says)
20090205 21:38:14< Ivanovic> so it is not far
20090205 21:38:26< Shadow_Master> ilor: ping me when you have some time
20090205 21:38:27< Ivanovic> and from the hostel we will probably head into the center for some dinner
20090205 21:38:34< Ivanovic> cib0: good!
20090205 21:38:48< Ivanovic> ilor: when you are there, you might already meet Noyga
20090205 21:38:51< ilor> Shadow_Master: I've some time now
20090205 21:38:52< Ivanovic> cf his photo in the thread
20090205 21:39:05< Shadow_Master> ilor: did you implement [replace_map]? is it documented in the wiki? (seems not)
20090205 21:39:09< Ivanovic> YogiHH, boucman: driving over by car?
20090205 21:39:15< boucman> yup
20090205 21:39:21< Ivanovic> if yes: put some multiport power strips in your car, just to be sure
20090205 21:39:25< ilor> Shadow_Master: ow. I forgot. 
20090205 21:39:38< boucman> will do
20090205 21:39:40< Shadow_Master> ilor: okay, and don't forget the sidebar template
20090205 21:39:43< Ivanovic> i got two packed in, but if all use the "fat" connector, there is not enough for all of us on them
20090205 21:39:57< Ivanovic> one i got with 3 big ports
20090205 21:40:03 * cib0 checks out the group photo of fosdem2008 again.
20090205 21:40:06< Ivanovic> and another one with 4 big outlets plus 4 small ones
20090205 21:40:07< YogiHH> i will bring one as well
20090205 21:40:12< cib0> who will be there from that photo?
20090205 21:40:23 * YogiHH waves
20090205 21:40:42< Noyga> me (noyga on the photo ;)) 
20090205 21:41:08< Ivanovic> cib0: the list this year is: AI0867, boucman, cib0, Dragonking, ilor, Ivanovic, Mordante, Noyga, YogiHH
20090205 21:41:22< Ivanovic> now map those names to the ones on the photo and your are done
20090205 21:41:48< Shadow_Master> (not very difficult) ;)
20090205 21:43:55< CIA-70> shadowmaster * r32616 /trunk/data/core/about.cfg: 
20090205 21:43:55< CIA-70> I've been told I also do improvements. Adding that to the entry
20090205 21:43:55< CIA-70> comments...
20090205 21:44:35< Ivanovic> afk for a while
20090205 21:46:05< CIA-70> shadowmaster * r32617 /trunk/data/core/about.cfg: LordBob: be more specific about the "human" units tree.
20090205 21:46:52< cib0> so, we meet tommorow at 6 pm in front of 2go4?
20090205 21:47:06< Shadow_Master> wesbot: seen Torangan
20090205 21:47:07< wesbot> Shadow_Master: The person with the nick Torangan last spoke 12d 21h ago.  12d 21h ago was here and on the channel #wesnoth-de with the message: Remote closed the connection
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20090205 21:52:38< ikarius> so, yesterday I showed up with some fairly grand-scale Ideas.  Folks were pretty darn polite about it, and I thank y'all  for that. :)  
20090205 21:53:49< ikarius> I've now read through the big python discussions in the last couple months on the mailing list, read significant portions of the wiki, brought down wesnoth-svn, compiled it locally, and started going through code
20090205 21:54:35< YogiHH> ikarius: you are welcome, we appreciate anyone who is polite himself ;-)
20090205 21:54:52< ikarius> new plan;  I'm about halfway through "the c++ annotations", including re-reading important bits, and I'll be picking some items off the easy-coding list to take on in order to better familiarize myself with the wesnoth code
20090205 21:55:43< YogiHH> ikarius: that's great news, i hope it won't scare you away ;-)
20090205 21:55:44< ikarius> *after* I get through some of that, I'll embark on poking the engine harder....
20090205 21:56:58< Noyga> i updated the fosdem thead (2009: put my phone num (same as 2008))
20090205 21:57:04< ikarius> but one question I've got.... there's the Ivan Illarionov effort underway to re-build in python, there's also some work by a fellow named Guillaume at integrating LUA into the code
20090205 21:58:41< ikarius> are folks teed off enough about Ivan's approach that it's nearly DOA?  And what are general thoughts on LUA vs python?
20090205 21:59:19< ikarius> I'm very interested in getting wesnoth to the point folks can hack on it without breaking out a c++ compiler & getting into dev-library dependency hell
20090205 22:00:07< YogiHH> ikarius: we view things more from a practical side: If something proves to work out fine, we are all for it
20090205 22:00:13 * Shadow_Master . O o (reading the C++ annotations was a highly pleasant experience for me, not scary at all)
20090205 22:00:13< ikarius> I got 1.5.9+svn to compile and apparently work on my macbook (OSX 10.5.5), but make test appears to fail
20090205 22:00:52< YogiHH> ikarius: discussions are good mostly before you start, but they shouldn't be the only thing taking place :-)
20090205 22:01:24< ikarius> Shadow_Master: agreed.  Long long ago I read a c++ book and mostly got it, but I think that was prior to STL being commonplace, so it was *really* early C++
20090205 22:01:48< YogiHH> ikarius: there is one more problem: someone needs to do it. If you have some real good ideas but noone to implement them, that's pretty pointless.
20090205 22:02:12< Shadow_Master> ikarius: Guillaume Mequiond is silene  btw :)
20090205 22:02:41< ikarius> Yogi: absolutely. if nobody does it, it's not worth much :)
20090205 22:03:11< YogiHH> ikarius: so it rather boils down to talking about it, then trying things out.
20090205 22:03:24< YogiHH> ikarius: and if it works, everyone is happy :-)
20090205 22:03:36< ikarius> my initial thinking is to hook in the python interpreter so that it's not cleared every turn, and allow an init module to register python funcs to be called at various event times, like beginning of turn, end of turn, unit move, etc
20090205 22:04:03< YogiHH> ikarius: we also try to implement new stuff carefully, that is make a proof of concept first, then develop things step by step
20090205 22:04:06< ikarius> I suspect as I learn more about the wesnoth code I'll find flies in the ointment making it more challenging than it sounds
20090205 22:04:31< Sirp> YogiHH: we don't use C++ wide characters in Wesnoth so we will not be affected
20090205 22:04:39< Sirp> at least afaik
20090205 22:04:41< YogiHH> ikarius: that proved to work very well, opposed to "we are gonna change the whole things at once"
20090205 22:04:44< ikarius> one immediate problem is that the approach would almost certainly step on the python-ai as it exists.
20090205 22:04:47< YogiHH> Sirp: ok, thanks
20090205 22:05:24< ikarius> Yogi: I'm definitely OK with a measured approach
20090205 22:05:40< Sirp> ikarius: I would suggest starting with something modest. For instance, trying to make it so that one can use a scripting language to write a random map generator for Wesnoth.
20090205 22:05:57< Sirp> or helping silene with his lua project.
20090205 22:06:01< YogiHH> ikarius: as you delve deeper into the code, you will also find that there are many (unnecessary) dependencies between parts of it. That's one more reason why large changes are not so good an idea atm. We work on that, but it will probably take quite a while if it ever gets done.
20090205 22:06:42< ikarius> Sirp: I'll make a note of that one
20090205 22:07:28< ikarius> Yogi: fun fun.
20090205 22:09:24-!- noy [n=Noy@d75-155-117-6.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090205 22:10:37< cib0> i think restructuring wesnoth's source could be much more helpful for its maintainability than extending it by another language
20090205 22:10:57 * Shadow_Master is part of the refactoring action squad.
20090205 22:12:03 * cib0 is part of the refactoring action squad fanclub.
20090205 22:12:29< Sirp> hi noy
20090205 22:12:35< noy> allo allo
20090205 22:12:41< ikarius> my primary motivation in getting a scripting language hooked in has very little to do with technical merits of any one language vs another- busting out a c++ compiler and getting the right dev- libraries on many systems can be a pretty frustrating exercise, even for folks who have a clue what they're about.  Having wesnoth hackable w/ a scripting language == no compiler + dev libs required. 
20090205 22:13:17< ikarius> everyone together now-  "All you need is VI,   All you need is VI" (sung to Lennon's tune)
20090205 22:13:28< ikarius> ;)
20090205 22:14:50< Sirp> ikarius: I'm fairly sure that for any C++ developer who has enough skills to have a chance of hacking Wesnoth's code, getting the code and deps is actually pretty easy, at least if that developer is on a reasonable Linux distro.
20090205 22:15:04< cib0> ikarius: i know what youre talking about and it's the reason im so glad i dont have to use windows anymore..
20090205 22:15:14< Sirp> we don't have all that many dependencies, and most of the ones we do have are pretty easy to get. 
20090205 22:15:34< Sirp> on Windows or OSX, well, it'd be harder, but all kinds of development are harder on those platforms.
20090205 22:15:46< Sirp> imo the biggest benefit would be to allow people to develop who don't grok C++
20090205 22:16:05< Shadow_Master> unless it's endorsed by MS in some way, development in any language is difficult in Windows
20090205 22:16:38< Sirp> however I see that as a double edged sword. I think that Wesnoth has benefited heavily from only having developers who grok C++ at least to some degree.
20090205 22:16:39< cib0> i found python/ruby development on windows just as easy as on GNU/Linux
20090205 22:17:10< cib0> sometimes easier, actually, because you can more easily find binaries for non-GPL stuff there
20090205 22:17:11< Sirp> if we used Python, I think that we'd have to have a MAJOR shift in our development practices in terms of closely reviewing people's code and requiring tests and not giving svn access out like it's candy
20090205 22:17:27-!- stikonas [n=and@ctv-79-132-188-113.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090205 22:18:30< Sirp> It also depends on where one wants to put the 'barrier' between C++ and the scripting language. There are so many possible choices based on what one is trying to accomplish
20090205 22:18:54< Sirp> (a big reason why I advocate starting with something fairly small and well contained)
20090205 22:19:19< Sirp> also at some stage if we're going to go with these scripting language thingies, we should make a clear choice between Python and Lua. :)
20090205 22:19:54< ikarius> Sirp: fair enough, but as folks on the ML pointed out, many of the "current" problems stem from inadequate structure, which is a language-agnostic problem
20090205 22:20:30< Shadow_Master> exactly. that's why refactoring is being done in appropriate areas
20090205 22:20:35< Shadow_Master> and at an appropriate rate
20090205 22:20:40< ikarius> ayup
20090205 22:21:42< Shadow_Master> the major stuff in 1.5.x AFAICT is: config cache, add-ons management and image-path functions. Each of them caused some initial issues that had to be solved.
20090205 22:22:07< Shadow_Master> I still remember my long conversations about making config cache "Boost 1.33-friendly"
20090205 22:22:17< Sirp> IMO though, if Wesnoth was all in Python, there would be no "running project with some of the same problems all projects have". There would be a huge mess with a codebase that quickly becomes unmanageable and unworkable and a dead project. At least with the way I manage things. There are probably some people who can manage a project effectively using Python, but I doubt I am one of them.
20090205 22:23:13< ikarius> I donno, call me an optimist, but if folks have enough good examples to look at, mebby they'll produce half-reasonable code when they hack on something
20090205 22:23:21< ikarius> .... yeah, overly optimistic.
20090205 22:23:55< Shadow_Master> as I see things, managing a large Python-based project is only possible if you have well separated code and human workforce territories
20090205 22:24:06< boucman> I believe the lua vs python problem will solve itself naturally
20090205 22:24:18< boucman> the first ready for mainline will be included, the other one will die
20090205 22:24:36< Shadow_Master> I place my bets in Lua :p
20090205 22:24:39< boucman> and any of them trying to replace c++ instead of being a plugin/extension language is bound to fail
20090205 22:24:44< Sirp> it really depends. If we have use of scripting languages in limited areas, that'll probably be fine. If we have a huge number of modules which need to communicate with each other and many thousands of lines of code, well, I'd be very nervous
20090205 22:25:03< Sirp> ahhh
20090205 22:25:12< boucman> Shadow_Master: so do I, but I don't want to pre-conceive the output, or influence it in any way
20090205 22:25:32< Sirp> boucman said what I wanted to so much more eloquently and succinctly than me. All I can really say is I concur with him, and I think that's all I actually have to contribute to the discussion. :)
20090205 22:25:36< boucman> it's just that silene is much better at working with wesnoth code/community than ivan_i
20090205 22:25:37< cib0> Sirp: by the way, did you ever have a look at D or MiniD?
20090205 22:25:48< Sirp> cib0: I've looked at D a little.
20090205 22:25:52< Shadow_Master> boucman: neither do I. I don't want to learn either language yet either (although I admit I just installed python-doc)
20090205 22:26:07< Shadow_Master> (trying to expand my maintenance tool-crafting skills)
20090205 22:26:08< Sirp> boucman: I suspect that silene is also a much stronger coder, too.
20090205 22:26:42< Shadow_Master> silene wrote the current base of the WML preprocessor. 'nuff said :P
20090205 22:27:27< boucman> Sirp: yeah, likely
20090205 22:29:03< cib0> Sirp: what do you think about it? to me, it looks like a nice and clean language, which gives you the ability to code in a more high-level manner, but still is low level enough to be powerful
20090205 22:29:38 * Shadow_Master needs to find 'D' in the Debian repository yet
20090205 22:30:05< cib0> Shadow_Master, look for gdc :p
20090205 22:30:15< Shadow_Master> 1 second before you spoke, I found it.
20090205 22:30:27< Sirp> cib0: I think it looks like a nice language, but sadly will probably never be widely used beyond being a curiosity. As far as I can understand, Walter Bright keeps unnecessarily tight controls over its development which makes its widespread adoption unlikely
20090205 22:30:30< Shadow_Master> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D_(programming_language)#Implementation
20090205 22:30:36< Ivanovic> cib0: in front or inside
20090205 22:30:38< Ivanovic> we will see
20090205 22:31:12< Shadow_Master> I feel I'm reading a Perl-C hybrid in those snippets
20090205 22:33:11< Ivanovic> cib0: what kind of phone do you have?
20090205 22:33:33< Ivanovic> cib0: that is: maybe we can "share" ac somehow (since we got several devs and probably many brands covered)
20090205 22:33:39< ikarius> how would folks feel if python-as-an-extension got cobbled in to wesnoth, but in the process python-ai was broken
20090205 22:34:10< ikarius> I lean a little more towards python as it's a bit more full-featured than lua
20090205 22:34:11< Ivanovic> ikarius: one problem of python is that it is very powerfull as embedded language
20090205 22:34:35< Ivanovic> many of the default features are too powerfull as that we could allow them for content on the addon server
20090205 22:34:39< ikarius> for me, that's a feature, though I understand what you're getting at
20090205 22:35:10< Ivanovic> addons reading out whatever files it wants on your disc and sends them somewhere are easily possible with python
20090205 22:35:18< Ivanovic> that is: if no restrictions are used
20090205 22:35:39< ikarius> so whatever language goes in needs to be sandboxed
20090205 22:36:22< boucman> ikarius: and LUA is meant to be sandboxed, not python
20090205 22:36:23< cib0> Sirp: well, i don't really expect anything that is *actually* good to be widely used :p but yeah, the size of the community is a problem
20090205 22:36:24< Ivanovic> that is at least my opionion about this
20090205 22:36:33< boucman> lua is specifically done for the sort of things we want to do
20090205 22:36:58< ikarius> and so it's clear why I'm talking about this before implementing is so that I don't go down a rathole implementing something that will get rejected out of hand due to requirements I was unaware of
20090205 22:37:38< Ivanovic> ikarius: in general i don't care much about the language used for "extension stuff" as long as it is really a sane way of doing things
20090205 22:37:49< Ivanovic> (just to point this out: haskell is not sane!!!) ;)
20090205 22:37:59< boucman> ikarius: tbh, I don't thik such a big change could be done by a dev that hasn't been part of the community for a long time and know the community really well
20090205 22:38:10< boucman> if you want to contribute, start with something smaller
20090205 22:38:15 * YogiHH is confused
20090205 22:38:16< Ivanovic> ikarius: and the main problem with python i see is that sandboxing it can be "challenging"...
20090205 22:38:35< boucman> if you want to do python, ther are some tooling/AI work, if you like c++ we'll find something for you to do, don't worry
20090205 22:38:49< cib0> anyway, MiniD is a neat interpreted language that has a very clean implementation, so if Wesnoth were to use a scripting language, id vote for that one.. problem is, we'd need to convert Wesnoth to D first :p
20090205 22:38:58< ikarius> pffft. you don't reguard a declarative language as sane?
20090205 22:39:10< YogiHH> i always thought that "new" calls the constructor of an object
20090205 22:39:21< Noyga> do we have some thread/wiki page that explain how to setup a wesnoth windows/Code::block compile env somewhere ?
20090205 22:39:31< noy> ... oh great 
20090205 22:39:39 * noy gets some popcorn
20090205 22:40:33< YogiHH> Noyga: not really, we only have me who has all this knowledge in his head ;-)  (and a forum thread dealing with how to compile with mingw/gcc)
20090205 22:40:47< cib0> Ivanovic: hell, i have no idea what kind of phone this is.. cant find the "Help -> About" entry there =/
20090205 22:40:51< YogiHH> Noyga: and Sapient of course
20090205 22:41:18< ikarius> ok. sounds like my best bet will be to poke into lua and see if I can't help out silene once I get more familiar with wesnoth codebase
20090205 22:41:45< Sirp> ikarius: so I guess the biggest question in my mind is, what are your goals? Do you want to become a Wesnoth developer who develops all kinds of features for Wesnoth? Or is your angle more that you like extensible programs and just want to add an extensible framework to Wesnoth? (and are you hoping we'd accept a patch that'd let someone change Wesnoth into a 4x game??)
20090205 22:42:19< Noyga> i'm currently installing one (btw it doesn't matter that much since i already have a working linux compile env)
20090205 22:42:26< ikarius> my immediate goal is to get familiar enough with wesnoth to actually hack on the codebase and accomplish something
20090205 22:42:50< ikarius> there's a great deal to be said for starting with something that works
20090205 22:42:52< loonycyborg> I'd write a guide for setting up a windows environment, but I feel that it would encourage people to stay on windows..
20090205 22:43:01< boucman> ikarius: easy code project : make a better random name generator for villages
20090205 22:43:03< loonycyborg> Which is a bad thing :)
20090205 22:43:15< cib0> ikarius: hope youre more lucky than me, then, it took me about a month just to get familiar with one part
20090205 22:43:15< YogiHH> loonycyborg: pah!
20090205 22:43:23< boucman> taking into accounts other map features, like neighbouring lakes, and translatable :P
20090205 22:43:48< ikarius> boucman: very funny
20090205 22:44:08< Sirp> ikarius: because basically if you want to be a Wesnoth developer, that's cool, but you should probably start with something pretty small, and we can see what you can do from there. If you want us to help you retool Wesnoth into something else for a project of your own, we can probably help you do that so you can make a fork and so forth just because we're nice. But if you want to give us a big patch which is going to add a whole lot of .
20090205 22:44:08< ikarius> I'm not an etymological expert
20090205 22:44:08< boucman> not that hard, it's an item in the EasyCoding page IIRC
20090205 22:44:14< Sirp> ... (lua|python) and hope we'll accept it into our codebase, well, that's probably not going to fly.
20090205 22:44:16< Ivanovic> cib0: often you find this stuff behind the battery
20090205 22:44:21< boucman> ikarius: what do you mean ?
20090205 22:44:36< boucman> I'm not joking, this is only a coding problem, not a language problem, 
20090205 22:44:59< ikarius> a random name generator for villages which takes terrain features into account & presents translatable names?
20090205 22:45:00< boucman> you need to interface with gettext, but the hard part is understanding the map generator, not making the name
20090205 22:45:05< boucman> we already have basics for that
20090205 22:45:13< boucman> yup
20090205 22:45:15< ikarius> oh
20090205 22:45:33< noy> how would it take terrain features into account?
20090205 22:45:35< ikarius> sounded like a natural language problem to me, which is one of the most  horrendous problems to approach
20090205 22:45:42< CIA-70> ivanovic * r32618 /trunk/ (data/core/about.cfg po/wesnoth/mr.po): updated Marathi translation
20090205 22:46:10< boucman> noy on randomy generated maps, lakes, rivers and mountains are named
20090205 22:46:28< ikarius> Sirp: I'm going to take it a bit at a time, and see where we get.
20090205 22:46:51< noy> Oh I know boucman, I thought it would name towns near a mountain something related to it or something
20090205 22:46:56< boucman> ikarius: nope, we would do it with template filling, the templates are provided by human translators "xxx upon yyy" 
20090205 22:47:06< Sirp> ikarius: our village naming code is pretty simple. I coded most of it and I'm far from an etymology expert. It has some incremental improvements that could be made.
20090205 22:47:08< boucman> noy, yeah, that's the idea
20090205 22:47:23< zookeeper> err, may i ask what's the point?
20090205 22:47:25< noy> Right, which is what I thought
20090205 22:47:43< zookeeper> who wants their villages named in the first place? map labels like that are very seldomly used
20090205 22:48:05-!- EdB [n=EdB@79.88.117.229] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090205 22:48:07< ikarius> Sirp: as far as getting to 4x, the biggest core feature I see would be capability to deal with unit stacks
20090205 22:48:12< boucman> zookeeper: mainly for a new dev to grow some teeth :P
20090205 22:48:30< Sirp> ikarius: I don't think we're going to add unit stacks to Wesnoth.
20090205 22:48:38< zookeeper> boucman, well, sure, but aren't there similar things to do which would be actually useful to have, too?
20090205 22:48:44< ikarius> Sirp: I'm not surprised.
20090205 22:48:45< noy> boucman: don't listen to zookeeper, he's not an allstar
20090205 22:48:49< boucman> ikarius: gameplay changes have heavy cchances of being received with hostility
20090205 22:48:55< noy> ikarius: major gameplay is not really going to change
20090205 22:49:01< noy> like randomness
20090205 22:49:07< noy> or unit stacking
20090205 22:49:13< cib0> Ivanovic: doesnt seem to be there.. anyway, im off to bed now, cya tommorows in Brussels
20090205 22:49:16< noy> (or lack of it)
20090205 22:49:22< Ivanovic> cib0: you tomorrow
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20090205 22:49:26< Ivanovic> around 6 at 2go4
20090205 22:49:26< ikarius> let me restate; if the game engine and game rulesets were better separated.....
20090205 22:49:31< silene> i'm going through the logs, and i would like to clear any misunderstanding, i haven't designed the lua interface to extend wesnoth, it's only here to simplify some things that a campaign designer may find tedious when using wml; for instance, the following is a lua snippet of the tutorial, just imagine what the wml was looking like; http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m23dde879
20090205 22:49:36< zookeeper> don't listen to noy, he's...well, you know what he's like.
20090205 22:49:55< ikarius> you could have an engine capable of handling unit stacks, but the "battle of wesnoth" ruleset would still only do single-units.
20090205 22:49:59< loonycyborg> Sirp: Though it would be nice if there were a wesnoth-based game with unit stacking and multi-hex range attacks :)
20090205 22:50:01< Sirp> ikarius: I don't think we're going to want the game rulesets to be programmable in Python or Lua or anything else. 
20090205 22:50:03< noy> Approachable, flexible, quiet?
20090205 22:50:11< zookeeper> yeah, absolutely all that.
20090205 22:50:17< Sirp> someone can fork the project and do that, but I think putting that kind of seperation in would be far too complicated.
20090205 22:50:22< boucman> silene: as far as I'm concerned, I understood it that way, but my talk might have been a bit confusing
20090205 22:50:26< Noyga> it's quicker to check a village name (if it has one) than its position
20090205 22:50:32< Sirp> loonycyborg: I don't disagree. I think someone should absolutely fork Wesnoth and make that.
20090205 22:50:50< Sirp> and I think that it would be great if someone made a library that made working with displaying hex maps like we have in Wesnoth convenient.
20090205 22:51:10< Sirp> in fact I think *that* would be an awesome project: if someone wanted to seperate out our display code enough to make a reusable 'hex engine'.
20090205 22:51:16< Ivanovic> AI0867: please inform mordante about the time stuff we talked about today
20090205 22:51:26< Sirp> ...that could be used to much more easily make any hex-based game
20090205 22:51:31< Ivanovic> so that (if we don't see us before) we meet at 2go4 and hope to be there around 6
20090205 22:51:36< zookeeper> ikarius, just out of curiosity, are you familiar with what all kinds of add-on scenarios there are, as in what the engine is capable of already?
20090205 22:51:43< zookeeper> (mainline isn't very representative of that)
20090205 22:51:43< Ivanovic> a sms would be welcome if 6 ain't possible
20090205 22:52:03< ikarius> Sirp: ok... we'll see how things go.  right now I'm gonna learn what I can of the codebase, then work towards a wesnoth with a scripting engine hooked in, then we'll see
20090205 22:52:10< Ivanovic> mainline is only using a fraction of what really is possible with wml
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20090205 22:52:27< Ivanovic> (though the "extreme parts" are often not nice to look at)
20090205 22:52:30-!- Shadow_Master [n=ignacior@unaffiliated/shadowmaster/x-275924] has quit [Connection timed out]
20090205 22:52:31< fabi> hi
20090205 22:52:34< Ivanovic> hi fabi
20090205 22:52:44< noy> Let me also state that its  difficult to alter the game engine from the gameplay... not just from a programming standpoint. 
20090205 22:52:56< noy> from an organizational point of view
20090205 22:52:57< Sirp> ...yeah our engine is pretty dang flexible. I mean, we have a "high seas mod" which has all these pirate themed rules....a football scenario which makes Wesnoth into a game of football.....some somewhat 'civlike' mods......some RPG scenarios, etc.
20090205 22:52:57< zookeeper> indeed
20090205 22:53:19< noy> Lets consider stacking units... how would you handle art? 
20090205 22:53:26< Ivanovic> ESR_: uhm, in the en_GB translation there are still several strings marked as fuzzy
20090205 22:53:29< Ivanovic> is this intentional?
20090205 22:53:42< ikarius> afk a bit
20090205 22:53:44< noy> And then what point is adding these possible options useful for us? 
20090205 22:53:57< noy> when they may mnever be used...
20090205 22:54:03< boucman> Ivanovic: what's the status of ANL right now... is it still mainline quality ?
20090205 22:54:07< ESR_> Ivanovic: No. I'll look at it.
20090205 22:54:07< Ivanovic> if not: just remove the line with "fuzzy" right in the block of the string (when working on the stuff with a plain text editor, po editors do have some feature to unfuzzy things)
20090205 22:54:11< noy> brb
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20090205 22:54:16< boucman> it doesn't seem played much on the mp server...
20090205 22:54:18< Ivanovic> boucman: at least it is in mainline
20090205 22:54:52< Ivanovic> ESR_: wait a second, just commiting another pot update
20090205 22:55:35< CIA-70> ivanovic * r32619 /trunk/ (151 files in 10 dirs): 
20090205 22:55:35< CIA-70> just another pot-update to make sure the changes by esr work out nicely...
20090205 22:55:35< CIA-70> regenerated doc files
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20090205 22:56:20< fabi> Can the topic anounced by the channel include a link to the latest irc log? I am tired of searching the thing.
20090205 22:56:43< Shadow_Master> fabi: what?
20090205 22:56:55< YogiHH> Sirp: what is the purpose of a SIGTRAP?
20090205 22:57:01< Shadow_Master> you just navigate through the list of files and pick the last file that matches the channel's name pattern?
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20090205 22:58:02< fabi> Shadow_Master: Yes, I am using the same algorithmn.
20090205 22:58:29< silene> YogiHH: man 7 signal
20090205 22:58:32< Shadow_Master> It's easy for me, even though my bandwidth is highly limited. I really don't see the problme.
20090205 22:59:04< silene> (it's a breakpoint for debuggers)
20090205 22:59:18< YogiHH> silene: sorry, windows here, no man pages ;-)
20090205 22:59:46< YogiHH> silene: is it normal to have memory allocation throw a SIGTRAP?
20090205 22:59:54< Shadow_Master> YogiHH: Google is your friend ;)
20090205 23:00:09< Shadow_Master> http://unixhelp.ed.ac.uk/CGI/man-cgi?signal+7
20090205 23:00:44< silene> YogiHH: not sure, but that would be a good way to get a backtrace in memory-tight situations
20090205 23:01:08< Shadow_Master> YogiHH: I don't think it's normal anyway.
20090205 23:01:31< Shadow_Master> I certainly don't see any SIGTRAPs here, unless they are handled internally (which seems to be impossible in Linux)
20090205 23:05:10< ikarius> back.
20090205 23:06:12< ikarius> sirp: basically my thoughts are this;  I have some serious work to do getting familiar with what exists today.  Bugfix/minor FR is generally what you start a junior engineer doing, so I'll do that because it not only educates me, but is useful to the wesnoth devs
20090205 23:06:38< boucman> ikarius: yes, that's the way to go to become a full fledge dev
20090205 23:06:46< Sirp> ikarius: ahh, I appreciate that attitude. That is the kind of thing we want.
20090205 23:06:53< boucman> see the EasyCoding page in the wiki, and patches.wesnoth.org for submission
20090205 23:07:19< ikarius> sirp: once I've gotten comfy,  I'll try to dig in and help integrating a scripting language into wesnoth, as there is that is not only in furtherance of my goal, but helpful to wesnoth
20090205 23:07:30< Shadow_Master> (hehe, minor FR :p)
20090205 23:07:34< ikarius> eventually,  I'll be interested in changing things which you wont want changed
20090205 23:08:12< noy> ikarius: people try that all the time.
20090205 23:08:51< Sirp> ikarius: I'm sure that silene would appreciate some help in what he is doing.
20090205 23:09:43< ikarius> until I find that I'm at a point where in order to get closer to my goals, I need to work on things that won't be accepted, I'll do my best to work on things useful for both wesnoth core and in furtherance of what I'd like to accomplish
20090205 23:10:15< ikarius> good for everyone all around, and more likely to lead to some folks interested in helping me when I get to that point.
20090205 23:10:33< noy> ikarius: while there is something to be said about breaking orthodoxy, sometimes blindly pushing things through without considering why it is like that the first place. 
20090205 23:10:51< noy> ... is not a very intelligent way of going about things. 
20090205 23:11:08< ikarius> noy: perhaps because I'd eventually like a game that's different than wesnoth? ;)
20090205 23:11:13< boucman> ikarius: you are speaking words of much more wisdom than you believe
20090205 23:11:40< ikarius> boucman:  I'm old enough to have learned that diplomacy is useful.
20090205 23:12:01< noy> IF your whole intent is to just to change the game, then the whole point of becoming a developer might not be the way to go. 
20090205 23:12:03< boucman> :)
20090205 23:12:06< noy> Make your own game?
20090205 23:12:38< Shadow_Master> exactly! (looks at his abandoned project)
20090205 23:13:18< noy> Part of the point of starting small is to familiarize yourself with the game, to make people accustomed to why things are the way they are... not as a waiting period to prevent people from becoming a fifth column. 
20090205 23:13:35< Sirp> I will actually be really honest and say that if I wanted to make a 4x (and I actually *do* want to make a 4x, one day) I would re-use some resources from Wesnoth, but I would start it as a new, fresh project with a fresh code base. I think that'd be easier than try to refactor Wesnoth's engine into a 4x.
20090205 23:13:59< noy> Thats not to say that change isn't welcome... it is also for you to understand what is useful and what isn't. 
20090205 23:14:07< silene> what i'm doing right now doesn't require much help (it's basically done), at least not from the C++ point of view; however i contemplate changing the config system to a hashconsed reference-counted system including wml inheritance, and this is purely a c++ thingie which isn't even started yet
20090205 23:14:37< Sirp> in fact, I did start work on a 4x, but that is currently stalled. Still thinking about ideas for it though. Screenshot of what I came up with so far is here: http://www.wesnoth.org/files/dave/wesciv.png
20090205 23:15:16< ikarius> ... let me say that useful includes things which I can learn by understanding the wesnoth codebase
20090205 23:15:36< boucman> Shadow_Master: I have understood your bug, looking for a fix now
20090205 23:15:37< Sirp> ikarius: that is true
20090205 23:15:42< Shadow_Master> boucman: nice.
20090205 23:16:32< boucman> silene: you might want to discuss WML internals with Sirp, he has plans too
20090205 23:16:35< ikarius> I generally learn fastest by example
20090205 23:16:45< Shadow_Master> I remember I had an ultimate goal when submitting patches for Wesnoth.
20090205 23:17:05< Shadow_Master> I cannot remember what it was. I got too distracted with coding.
20090205 23:17:16< ikarius> SM: hah.
20090205 23:17:31< Sirp> silene: I think having the WML system as reference counted (i.e. making the child list a vector<intrusive_ptr<config> > is a nice idea.
20090205 23:18:21< YogiHH> boucman: if i intend to look at the highlighting code for mouse_over, where would i have to search for the relevant objects dealing with that?
20090205 23:18:46< YogiHH> boucman: that is objects holding the highlighted hexes, for example?
20090205 23:19:38< boucman> display::selected_hex() is where I get it for animations if that's what you mean
20090205 23:19:39< Shadow_Master> Sirp: reference counting? that'd surely kill my current bug :p
20090205 23:20:21< Shadow_Master> fabi: I don't think you can remove the UtBS AMLAs now btw.
20090205 23:20:33< fabi> Shadow_Master: That are bad news.
20090205 23:20:45< fabi> It's a endless source of bugs.
20090205 23:21:05< Shadow_Master> fabi: I don't think why you thought you could get away with that. We are in feature freeze. Removing features is as bad an idea as adding them.
20090205 23:21:28< Shadow_Master> they are an endless source of border-cases. that's a good thing.
20090205 23:22:10< fabi> Okay, If they help to improve the engine I will keep them in.
20090205 23:22:33< Shadow_Master> if they don't help mainline, they'll help UMC.
20090205 23:23:35< YogiHH> boucman: is there some high-level documentation of how the display drawing works?
20090205 23:23:52< ikarius> silene: do you have a git or SVN repo of your work to date?
20090205 23:24:01< ikarius> or is your stuff all up as gna patches?
20090205 23:24:05< boucman> YogiHH: what layer ? (and the answer is probably no)
20090205 23:24:25< boucman> ikarius: it's published as a path on our bug database for the moment
20090205 23:24:39< ikarius> boucman: hokay.
20090205 23:25:08< Ivanovic> time for me to head off to bed
20090205 23:25:09< YogiHH> boucman: layer is the right keyword :-D. What for example are layers (i can guess that) and how are they handled by the display code? Which information resides in which layer?
20090205 23:25:17< ikarius> alrighty, back to reading annotated c++ & wesnoth source with me
20090205 23:25:18< Ivanovic> boucman: so you will for sure be at the beer party?
20090205 23:25:27< fabi> Shadow_Master: Is adding new terrain to maps a brake of feature freeze?
20090205 23:25:40< Ivanovic> no idea if the rest of us will join you there (i expect it to be *really* crowded)
20090205 23:25:56< YogiHH> boucman: and don't hesitate to say "get your hands dirty on the code" if i steal too much of your time ;-)
20090205 23:26:06< Shadow_Master> fabi: no.
20090205 23:26:06< silene> ikarius: it's a small gna patch
20090205 23:26:17< Shadow_Master> fabi: wait a second, why do you ask me this stuff instead to zookeeper ?
20090205 23:26:22< Ivanovic> n8
20090205 23:26:25< YogiHH> afk (going to pack some stuff for FOSDEM)
20090205 23:26:29< YogiHH> night Ivanovic 
20090205 23:26:30< Shadow_Master> good night Ivanovic , have fun !
20090205 23:26:45< Ivanovic> see you at fosdem (at least some of you...)
20090205 23:26:57< Shadow_Master> (kidnapped neorice already?)
20090205 23:27:05< fabi> Shadow_Master: No idea, why should I ask zookeeper?
20090205 23:27:12< Ivanovic> Shadow_Master: i hope AI0867 and mordante do so on their drive over...
20090205 23:28:01< Shadow_Master> fabi: because he's been around for longer than me?
20090205 23:28:15< Shadow_Master> anyway, no, that's no break.
20090205 23:28:19< boucman> YogiHH: start in display.hpp around line 644
20090205 23:28:32< boucman> basically you give anything you want to draw a hex and a layer
20090205 23:28:50< boucman> and the drawing engine will use that in a "smart way" to have a drawing order at redraw time
20090205 23:29:22< boucman> this includes interacting with both position and layers for things like the big elvish tree which overwrite the hex over himself
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20090205 23:34:18< zookeeper> <zookeeper> hmm, do betas really need to be forwards-compatible? i mean, isn't it enough if you can play 1.5.9 content on 1.6, why would you need to be able to also play 1.6 content on 1.5.9?
20090205 23:34:41-!- noy [n=Noy@d75-155-117-6.bchsia.telus.net] has quit ["GO, GET TO THE CHOPPAH!!!"]
20090205 23:36:53< silene> zookeeper: because if you can break things so hard that a beta is not forward-compatible with a release, then it just means it was too early for a beta :-)
20090205 23:37:57< zookeeper> well everyone already knew it was too early for a beta :P
20090205 23:40:29< zookeeper> i was just wondering since i didn't seem to find a way to make any forested deciduous hills in a backwards-compatible way.
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20090205 23:44:13< Shadow_Master> a spring variant would be nice too
20090205 23:44:35< fabi> yes, but the artist refused to make one.
20090205 23:47:43 * Shadow_Master has to test Mordante's stuff in more detail :/
20090205 23:47:53< YogiHH> back
20090205 23:49:55< Shadow_Master> Mordante: 20090205 19:51:24 error gui_layout: Failed to resize window, wanted width 1159 available width 1138.
20090205 23:49:58< Shadow_Master> wesnoth: src/gui/widgets/window.cpp:497: void gui2::twindow::layout(): Assertion `false' failed.
20090205 23:50:13< CIA-70> boucman * r32620 /trunk/src/unit_animation.cpp: fix defend animations not playing (bug 12945)
20090205 23:50:43< Shadow_Master> apparently you are not vertically resizing character dialogs that contain a list of options to compensate for the screen res.
20090205 23:52:00< Shadow_Master> boucman: let me test.
20090205 23:53:14< YogiHH> boucman: is TDRAWING_BUFFER_USES_VECTOR a compiler define-flag?
20090205 23:53:35< Shadow_Master> boucman: good job
20090205 23:54:04< Shadow_Master> I missed those cute defense anims :p
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20090205 23:56:57< Shadow_Master> YogiHH: no, it's not in the build recipes.
20090205 23:57:18< Shadow_Master> it's apparently some stuff that Mordante was testing when writing the layered graphics renderer
20090205 23:57:51-!- Turuk_ [n=Turuk@FUSE-WS1-208-102-202-188.fuse.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090205 23:58:30< Shadow_Master> assume TDRAWING_BUFFER_USES_VECTOR is not defined (it isn't defined anywhere indeed)
20090205 23:59:39-!- Dragonking [n=dk@dedikerad/dragonking] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090205 23:59:47< Shadow_Master> hi Dragonking 
20090205 23:59:54< Dragonking> hi everyone
20090205 23:59:56< Dragonking> Ivanovic: Around?
--- Log closed Fri Feb 06 00:00:14 2009