--- Log opened Fri Feb 06 00:00:14 2009
--- Day changed Fri Feb 06 2009
20090206 00:00:14< Shadow_Master> he just went to bed :)
20090206 00:00:38< Dragonking> argh
20090206 00:00:39< Dragonking> :)
20090206 00:00:43-!- boucman [n=rosen@140.117.71-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090206 00:00:49< Dragonking> I just came back home
20090206 00:04:38< AI0867> Ivanovic: I know where he lives, and it's way north of where mordante will pick me up
20090206 00:04:48< AI0867> so he'll have to do that by himself, unfortunately
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20090206 00:11:13< YogiHH> hi Dragonking
20090206 00:11:19< Dragonking> hi YogiHH :)
20090206 00:11:34< YogiHH> Anything about FOSDEM you wanted to know from Ivanovic?
20090206 00:12:07< Dragonking> Well just generaln info
20090206 00:12:35< YogiHH> he plans to meet tomorrow evening at 6 pm at 2go4
20090206 00:12:48< Dragonking> Yes, I know that :)
20090206 00:13:25< Dragonking> Me and Ivanovic should meet around 2pm tomorrow
20090206 00:13:40< YogiHH> ok
20090206 00:13:57< Dragonking> I added my photo to forum thread.
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20090206 00:14:24< Dragonking> And I'm recompilling wesnoth on my poor old notebook now ;)
20090206 00:15:30< YogiHH> :-)
20090206 00:17:21< Shadow_Master> hah.
20090206 00:17:51< Shadow_Master> mine is buried in my bedroom, suspended-to-RAM for three weeks already.
20090206 00:19:43< ikarius> y'know, I think we should reimplement Wesnoth in C#.   It's a technically superior language with a shorter learning curve.
20090206 00:19:49 * ikarius ducks for cover
20090206 00:20:30< Shadow_Master> I learned C/C++ from C# actually.
20090206 00:20:50< Dragonking> I learned C/C++ from book. ;p
20090206 00:20:59< Shadow_Master> (well, the basics)
20090206 00:21:02< Dragonking> Never used C#
20090206 00:21:03< Dragonking> :)
20090206 00:21:46< Sirp> C# is so powerful that it actually teaches you other languages?
20090206 00:22:03< ikarius> ... good grief, I was being facetious
20090206 00:22:16< Sirp> I was referring to Shadow_Master's comment. 
20090206 00:22:26< Sirp> anyhow, I actually like C#; I think it's a nice language.
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20090206 00:22:51< Shadow_Master> I think it motivated me to learn where it borrowed the syntax from.
20090206 00:22:57< ikarius> from what I've heard, it's reasonably nice, but it's platform-challenged
20090206 00:23:06< Sirp> yeah the portability is the main problem
20090206 00:23:36< Sirp> technically though, I think it's the best 'newfangled' and widespread systems-level language
20090206 00:23:49< ikarius> probably
20090206 00:24:53< Shadow_Master> AI0867: your photo reminds me of me :/
20090206 00:25:15< Shadow_Master> it looks like my face, with less fat and hair...
20090206 00:25:21< ikarius> generally what I've heard is that Microsoft did an excellent job of applying lessons learned from previous languages such that the core language is VERY nice, but that the libraries are an atrocious mess
20090206 00:25:35< AI0867> I used to have more hair
20090206 00:25:46< AI0867> it's almost long enough to put in a ponytail again
20090206 00:25:52< Sirp> well, the problem is that .Net isn't portable at all.
20090206 00:25:57< Shadow_Master> I don't think the libraries are an atrocious mess (if we put portability issues aside)
20090206 00:27:18< Sirp> Microsoft did do a really good job of cribbing off of Java.
20090206 00:27:29< Sirp> and lets be honest, the Java platform has issues all its own
20090206 00:27:33< loonycyborg> Most issues that C# fixes are non-issues. At least IMO.
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20090206 00:29:22< Sirp> well, C# isn't *that* much of an improvement over Java. Probably not enough to make it actually worth using.
20090206 00:29:30< Sirp> especially since with Java you actually get libraries that are portable.
20090206 00:29:36< Noyga> n8
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20090206 00:51:16< Dragonking> night everyone
20090206 00:51:18-!- Dragonking [n=dk@dedikerad/dragonking] has quit []
20090206 00:58:32< YogiHH> Sirp, you there?
20090206 01:00:43< YogiHH> Sirp: hmm, never mind
20090206 01:02:47< Sirp> YogiHH: I am......was there anything you still wanted?
20090206 01:03:18< YogiHH> Sirp: no, i just figured that i will have to ask Mordante about the changes in text.cpp ;-)
20090206 01:03:40< Sirp> okay. :)
20090206 01:04:45< Sirp> YogiHH: I hope you have fun at FOSDEM; I'm sorry I won't be able to make it this year.
20090206 01:05:08< YogiHH> Sirp: I am sure we will :-)
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20090206 01:15:46< Shadow_Master> Will you have a presentation like last year's?  Who will be the spokesperson this time? :P
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20090206 01:40:11< CIA-70> jhinrichs * r32621 /trunk/src/text.cpp:
20090206 01:40:15< YogiHH> oops
20090206 01:41:07< Sirp> oops?
20090206 01:41:09< Sirp> oh
20090206 01:41:16< Sirp> you committed without a comment? :p
20090206 01:41:22< YogiHH> didn't mean to commit that, actually ;-)
20090206 01:42:51< ikarius> jesus, #MacPorts is freaking hostile
20090206 01:43:30< ikarius> or at least has a hostile denizen running rampant at the moment
20090206 01:43:49 * Turuk is waiting to see this in action.  Apparently so is fabi, he joined too. :P
20090206 01:44:23< fabi> What do you have to say to force hostileness?
20090206 01:44:29< ikarius> I asked if there's a mechanism for installing debug versions of libraries via the port command, the guy starts insulting me out of the blue
20090206 01:44:53< ikarius> tells me questions are inappropriate
20090206 01:45:27< ikarius> so I suggested if questions were innappropriate he should update the macports webpage to indicate that, he suggested I should go kill myself.
20090206 01:45:42< Sirp> well gee, installing debug versions indeed; I hope you never ask us anything about debugging Wesnoth. We'd have to lynch you!!!
20090206 01:45:52< fabi> Maybe that is the : hey you have luck in your game, that is a bad thing! of macports
20090206 01:46:03< ikarius> no shit.
20090206 01:46:17< ikarius> I'm suddenly contemplating converting to fink
20090206 01:46:26< YogiHH> night everyone
20090206 01:46:40< loonycyborg> ikarius: Try asking on #freebsd :)
20090206 01:47:16-!- YogiHH [i=YogiHH@d157037.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit ["Verlassend"]
20090206 01:47:57< ikarius> loonycyborg: that's cruel and unusual.  on #freebsd I've heard they track your IP, show up at your house and kill your dog for asking questions
20090206 01:50:13< loonycyborg> I can only tell you how to install debug versions on Gentoo: USE=debug emerge the-lib
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20090206 02:54:01< Turuk> If anyone on can answer, if you are putting a textdomain tag in files, but they are files borrowed from another place (EoM, EoMA, etc.) do you direct the (textdomain wesnoth-Era_of_Myths) for example or do you keep it as (textdomain wesnoth-Campaign_Name) due to the fact that it will only read from the official textdomains if needed, and not from other campaigns/eras/etc.
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20090206 03:28:40< Soliton> what means borrowed?
20090206 03:31:47< crimson_penguin> Soliton: it's like stealing, except then you give it back when you're done ;)
20090206 03:32:04< crimson_penguin> "loan" is basically the same
20090206 03:32:24< Soliton> crimson_penguin: right.. and that makes not much sense in that context.
20090206 03:32:32< ikarius> lmao - crimson_penguin. I was thinking about being mean and telling him it was a nicer word for stealing ;)
20090206 03:33:03< crimson_penguin> ikarius: gotta be helpful at the same time as silly ;)
20090206 03:33:14< ikarius> I borrowed a hammer from Sirp;  Sirp loaned me a cluehammer.
20090206 03:33:34< ikarius> for a usage example ;)
20090206 03:34:47< Turuk> Cute
20090206 03:36:04< Turuk> Fine, files taken/copied/stolen/kidnapped, whatever you prefer
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20090206 03:45:30< Shadow_Master> Turuk: um...
20090206 03:45:50< Shadow_Master> I don't understand well your question 
20090206 03:46:17< Turuk> I'm fixing Mica's pile of crap
20090206 03:46:37< Turuk> He has textdomain wesnoth-Era_of_Myths for the units he included in his campaign that he took from that era
20090206 03:46:56< Shadow_Master> basically, if an add-on A binds to other add-on B's textdomains, then B becomes mandatory dependency of A as far as translations are concerned.
20090206 03:47:22< Shadow_Master> in other words, unless A really depends upon B for more stuff (graphics, WML etc.), it's a bad idea to make such a dependency
20090206 03:47:23< Turuk> If I leave that textdomain, will the game pull the translations from the Era of Myths or should I make all the textdomains read textdomain wesnoth-Conquest_of_a_Dark_Queen
20090206 03:47:34< Turuk> Got it.
20090206 03:47:44< Turuk> That's what I figured, but again, checking before I make commits.
20090206 03:48:00< Shadow_Master> only wesnoth, wesnoth-units, wesnoth-lib, wesnoth-test and a few others are always guaranteed to be available
20090206 03:48:19< Shadow_Master> wesnoth-httt, wesnoth-low and other textdomains, even if they are mainline campaigns', do not offer such guarantee.
20090206 03:49:10< Shadow_Master> this is why textdomain_check explicitly barfs on textdomains that do not belong to the above category, or the add-on A's own textdomain
20090206 03:49:57< Shadow_Master> I'll probably write support for a '# textdomain_check: allow wesnoth-B' pragma to allow for cases where the A->B dependency is intended.
20090206 03:50:36< Shadow_Master> s/intended/intended and well-founded/
20090206 03:50:41< Turuk> Which is flawed anyways because if his campaign has to check for Era of Myths for translations, and the user does not have that add-on, it will not work.
20090206 03:51:42< Shadow_Master> well, you can make A->B a "hard" dependency if you are actually importing graphics and WML from B for use in A. That's done for Imperial Era campaigns, for instance.
20090206 03:51:55< Turuk> Hmmm.
20090206 03:52:32< Shadow_Master> however I don't think the particular add-on you're talking about (Mica's) uses any era's graphics and WML explictly. Hence a translation-only dependency is _bad_.
20090206 03:53:05< Turuk> Yup, I agree completely.  He packaged all the units into the add-on so it would only need the era for the translation.
20090206 03:53:06< Shadow_Master> * exported graphics and WML (don't confuse with copying an era's code and graphics and including it in the add-on directly)
20090206 03:53:17< Turuk> No, I understood you. ;)
20090206 03:53:46< Turuk> So I might as well leave them blank, or include textdomain wesnoth-Conquest_of_a_Dark_Queen?
20090206 03:53:57< Shadow_Master> the latter.
20090206 03:54:16< Turuk> I figured as much, since that would mean the most work.
20090206 03:54:25< Shadow_Master> I actually think I should do it to save you work. :)
20090206 03:54:39< Turuk> It's alright really, it does give me more practice with svn.
20090206 03:54:43< Turuk> But I appreciate the offer :)
20090206 03:55:01< Shadow_Master> is this #wesnoth-dev ?? oops.
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20090206 07:03:38< ikarius> hmm
20090206 07:03:53< ikarius> so, I shitcanned macports and restarted with fink
20090206 07:31:27< ikarius> freaking finally.  there are a few difficult-to-discern fink packages required in the SVN wesnoth
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20090206 07:35:13< ilor> ok, I'll be off to the airport in a few minutes
20090206 07:35:30< ilor> see you guys at Fosdem ;)
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20090206 08:06:40-!- Jetrel [n=Jetrel@mn-10k-dhcp1-151.dsl.hickorytech.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090206 08:06:58< Jetrel> Suggestion for the main page text:
20090206 08:07:21< Jetrel> remove the sentence:  "Build up a great army of humans, elves, dwarves, orcs, trolls or any of the other races and beat those who dare to oppose you."
20090206 08:07:26< Jetrel> It's a little cheesy.
20090206 08:07:41< Jetrel> It's also redundant.
20090206 08:07:57< Jetrel> It might not hurt to add to the first sentence, though:
20090206 08:08:34< Jetrel> The Battle for Wesnoth is a free, turn-based strategy game with a fantasy theme, featuring story-mode and multiplayer combat.
20090206 08:10:09-!- ilor [n=user@unaffiliated/ilor] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090206 08:12:18< Jetrel> When designing capsule descriptions like that, one should apply the scalpel -liberally-, and hack away anything that's vaguely redundant.
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20090206 08:15:26< zookeeper> yeah, agreed.
20090206 08:17:06< Jetrel> ?
20090206 08:17:15< Jetrel> uh, did you read the log or something?
20090206 08:17:27< zookeeper> of course i did ;)
20090206 08:17:32< Jetrel> :]
20090206 08:18:00< Jetrel> also:  http://www.allacrost.org/staff/user/jetryl/sylph-new.gif
20090206 08:18:45< zookeeper> there's still a couple pixels flickering in for a frame or two in her our left hip
20090206 08:18:58< zookeeper> which makes the leg look somewhat detached IMO
20090206 08:19:19< zookeeper> and i very much agree with whoever it was who said that the staff rotation looks weird
20090206 08:19:23< Jetrel> I can kill that easily enough.
20090206 08:19:35< Jetrel> You mean the rotation on the bottom of the staff?
20090206 08:19:45< zookeeper> no, the tip
20090206 08:20:17< Jetrel> Yeah, I don't quite know what to do there - it's hard as hell because I have to work at a subpixel level.
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20090206 08:20:41< Jetrel> Well, maybe a few specific pixels can be nixed...
20090206 08:20:48< Jetrel> kickback momentarily.
20090206 08:21:23< zookeeper> also i'd be just a little bit concerned about the tip touching the top edge, it might look a bit funny with the grid or when the hex is highlighted
20090206 08:22:15< zookeeper> also the TC dress should move a bit, now it's completely static
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20090206 08:42:13< Jetrel> zookeeper:  here we go
20090206 08:45:19< Jetrel> zookeeper:  http://www.allacrost.org/staff/user/jetryl/sylph.gif
20090206 08:47:12-!- EdB [n=EdB@79.82.153.245] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090206 08:48:44< Jetrel> TBH, I really shouldn't spend more time futzing with this.  Do tell if there are further issues, but I *really* need to move on.
20090206 08:53:07< zookeeper> well, looks perfectly fine for commit if you'd ask me.
20090206 08:56:03< Jetrel> yey
20090206 08:56:19< Jetrel> Did that fix the issues you'd just pointed out, do you think?
20090206 08:59:16< zookeeper> i do think the staff is still a bit wonky
20090206 08:59:31< ikarius> good god finally
20090206 08:59:47< zookeeper> the tip is just toggling between two states, which catches my eye all the time
20090206 09:00:05< zookeeper> but i don't know if it'd do so in-game anymore
20090206 09:05:26-!- Mordante [n=chatzill@roadie.xs4all.nl] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090206 09:05:39< Mordante> morning
20090206 09:07:42< Sirp_> hi Mordante 
20090206 09:07:47< Mordante> hi Sirp
20090206 09:07:49< Ivanovic> moin
20090206 09:08:02< Mordante> hi Ivanovic 
20090206 09:08:26< Mordante> I was just about to summon you ;-)
20090206 09:08:29-!- Turuk_ [n=Turuk@FUSE-WS1-208-102-202-188.fuse.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090206 09:08:34< Ivanovic> :)
20090206 09:08:50< Ivanovic> Mordante: general plan: meeting around 6pm at 2go4 if we don't meet before
20090206 09:09:04< Mordante> I expect to be at the fosdem between 16:00 and 17:00 so we'll contact you to ask your eta
20090206 09:09:15< Mordante> you there*
20090206 09:11:28< Jetrel> zookeeper:  also, I imagine you saw that attempt I made at dirt?
20090206 09:12:23< Ivanovic> Mordante: send an sms to DK since he will have it easier to reach his mobile phone
20090206 09:12:56< Ivanovic> Mordante: if you are there early, you can just take the bus to de brouckere
20090206 09:12:57< Mordante> yes I planned on that, since you'll be driving
20090206 09:13:03< Ivanovic> that is line 71 tio the end station
20090206 09:14:03< zookeeper> Jetrel, yes, it looks really good
20090206 09:14:06< zookeeper> transitions :P?
20090206 09:14:18-!- Noyga [n=lame-z@AVelizy-151-1-68-183.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090206 09:14:52< zookeeper> Jetrel, if you don't want to mess with the transitions, you can PM me the tiles and i can _try_ to do something
20090206 09:14:59< Dragonking> hi Ivanovic  :)
20090206 09:15:20< Mordante> hi Dragonking 
20090206 09:15:25< Dragonking> and hi Mordante 
20090206 09:15:26< Dragonking> :)
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20090206 09:15:36< Jetrel> zookeeper:  right.  As soon as I get the sylph + enchantress done I'll try and iron out some variants for it.
20090206 09:15:38< Ivanovic> Dragonking: okay, i will be at the airport in dortmund at 13:45
20090206 09:15:46< Dragonking> Ivanovic: Great
20090206 09:15:51< Ivanovic> waiting right at the exit where you come from the baggage area
20090206 09:15:57< Jetrel> IMO, dirt should be a base tile, and shouldn't have any special transitions, except maybe with water.
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20090206 09:16:00< Ivanovic> (that is unless i end in a traffic jam)
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20090206 09:16:07< Dragonking> There is terrible fog here, hope it won't affect flight
20090206 09:16:09< Ivanovic> then just wait there and i'll pick you up
20090206 09:16:26< Ivanovic> i will check the flight plan via internet, they tend to list delays, too
20090206 09:16:28< Ivanovic> ;)
20090206 09:16:29< Dragonking> Still 3h to go, so it may clear up a bit
20090206 09:16:30< Dragonking> :)
20090206 09:17:32< Jetrel> zookeeper:  I'd actually be interested in doing slightly shallower versions of this kind of water bank.
20090206 09:17:36< Dragonking> Ivanovic: My photo in the forums, I'll be wearing black jacket (winter one so a bit.. big ;p), and jeans 
20090206 09:17:42< Jetrel> http://tkool.jp/products/rpgxp/eng/at_tile2.gif
20090206 09:18:00< Ivanovic> Dragonking: i will basically be wearing the same jacket at on the group photo from last year
20090206 09:18:01< Dragonking> I have memorized your phone number so we should manage to find each other :)
20090206 09:18:03< Jetrel> I think we could make this work well with sand, by having sand "blend into" the water.
20090206 09:18:17< Ivanovic> Dragonking: memorize all the phone numbers, just to be sure
20090206 09:18:30< Dragonking> Ivanovic: Did that ;p
20090206 09:18:37< Jetrel> Like the sand is level with the water and serves as a beach, but the grass has a slightly raised bank (this is actually a lot like it is in the real world.
20090206 09:18:41< Ivanovic> (i got an "analog" copy of all the numbers with me, too...)
20090206 09:19:09< Mordante> I got them in my phone, if my phone fails I can't call anyway ;-)
20090206 09:19:19< Dragonking> :)
20090206 09:19:45< Ivanovic> Mordante: last year we had some numbers as analog copy (ettin) and some in my phone
20090206 09:19:49< Ivanovic> somehow this worked, too
20090206 09:19:53< zookeeper> Jetrel, i lately figured that the proper solution to this smooth-transition-or-a-bank-transition thing would be to just have both, one for shallow water etc and one for deep water.
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20090206 09:20:13< Ivanovic> though at about 5pm on friday my phone was drained (was not good regarding battery times anyway)
20090206 09:20:17< Jetrel> zookeeper:  that could work.  I do want the bank transition in some form.
20090206 09:20:28< Jetrel> zookeeper:  anyways, I'll wait on that till after the enchantress/sylph are done.
20090206 09:20:32< Dragonking> Ivanovic: Any last thing info about something that you think that I need/should take? Besides usual traveller's stuff :) 
20090206 09:20:38< Jetrel> And I'm *about* to hit the hay.
20090206 09:20:43< zookeeper> the banked deep water one could perhaps be done using the chasm method somehow, so each land terrain wouldn't need their own dedicated bank transitions
20090206 09:20:55< Ivanovic> Dragonking: don't forget a towel
20090206 09:21:00< Ivanovic> they don't provide one at the hostel
20090206 09:21:01< Dragonking> I have one
20090206 09:21:02< Dragonking> :)
20090206 09:21:17< zookeeper> (the bank edge would just be drawn on top of the hex borders, covering the lack of regular land<->water trans there
20090206 09:21:20< zookeeper> )
20090206 09:21:28< Mordante> one should always take a towel with him/her ;-)
20090206 09:21:45< Ivanovic> Mordante: yes, but some don't follow this wise guideline
20090206 09:22:03< Mordante> and probably they start to panic then as well 
20090206 09:22:09< Ivanovic> jupp
20090206 09:22:56 * zookeeper tends to get infinitely bored by HHGTTG jokes
20090206 09:23:27< Jetrel> HHGTTG?
20090206 09:23:28 * Mordante not
20090206 09:24:08< Ivanovic> Jetrel: hitchhickers guide to the galaxy
20090206 09:24:14< Jetrel> >_>
20090206 09:24:39< Jetrel> I'm one of those weirdos who doesn't like that book.
20090206 09:24:58< zookeeper> like? i haven't even read it
20090206 09:25:22< Jetrel> That bit at the beginning that's supposed to be humorous, about the earth being paved away for an intergalactic highway, ends up being more of "nightmare fuel" for me.
20090206 09:25:23< zookeeper> i'm one of those who don't like to read books
20090206 09:25:44< Jetrel> For some reason, I really get bugged by depictions of planets being blown up.
20090206 09:25:49< Ivanovic> Mordante: when will you leave your home?
20090206 09:26:01< zookeeper> well, actually not one of _those_, since usually i guess they're dumb, so i'll count myself as an exception within that group
20090206 09:26:03< Mordante> around 13:00
20090206 09:26:04< Jetrel> Yes, that scene from Star Wars did get to me.
20090206 09:26:14< zookeeper> Jetrel, huh, why? i think it's great.
20090206 09:26:19< zookeeper> destroying planets i mean
20090206 09:26:27< Ivanovic> ah, okay, about the same for me (some mins later)
20090206 09:26:53< Jetrel> zookeeper:  something about it really bothers me.
20090206 09:27:33< Jetrel> I mean, bothers me in an emotional way - I think that they're excellently done, but it happens to hit a certain unusually strong emotional chord with me.
20090206 09:27:34< zookeeper> Jetrel, ever seen the revised alderaan destruction scene (adywan's star wars revisited, or some variant of it) where you get to see jar-jar binks just before it blows? that's some consolidation, i really like that scene :P
20090206 09:27:54< Jetrel> hah, no.
20090206 09:28:07< zookeeper> i'll find it for you
20090206 09:28:15< Mordante> I'll be a bit afk since I still need to pack some things, that's why I took the entire day off instead of half a day
20090206 09:29:01< zookeeper> Jetrel, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q8KQivWebs
20090206 09:31:11< Jetrel> zookeeper:  jesus, that business of the cracks of lava opening in the water really scares the shit out of me.
20090206 09:31:31< zookeeper> btw adywan's star wars revisited is worth a look anyhow, it's quite remarkable how a single guy has made a better and much more drastic edits to the movie than lucas ever did
20090206 09:32:17< Jetrel> Yeah, I seriously don't know what it is, but something about a few kinds of imagery really bugs the shit out of me:
20090206 09:32:47< zookeeper> that's odd. i'm more like a serious fan of planetary destruction :P
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20090206 09:33:46< Jetrel> planets being blown up, or otherwise "sinking into hell".  People being "chestbusted" a la aliens, or any other sort of "infection/creature growing inside" type thing.  Like the scene of the chick exploding from just the trailer to cloverfield really bugged me (still haven't seen that movie)
20090206 09:34:07< Mordante> ikarius just for your information, I'm working on the gui code and I want to make theming Wesnoth easier
20090206 09:34:16< zookeeper> basically the only kind of stuff which tends to really creep me out are those classical alien abduction things
20090206 09:34:28< Jetrel> For some reason, I can see people being eviscerated, and ripped limb from limb, and it doesn't really get to me.
20090206 09:34:32< Mordante> ikarius also to integrate it more with scenario wml/(lua)
20090206 09:34:35< Jetrel> But those things I mentioned do.
20090206 09:34:57< Jetrel> zookeeper:  classic abduction, like ... being beamed up to the ship, and missing several hours of memory?
20090206 09:35:28< zookeeper> Jetrel, mmm, yeah, but i guess a crucial part of that would be gray aliens and being unable to move etc
20090206 09:35:32< Mordante> ikarius and like others already said the biggest problem with ivan's patch was it was too big and his approach of this community was bad
20090206 09:35:57< Mordante> ikarius eg not taking advice from senior developers, you seem to do that much better :-)
20090206 09:36:00< zookeeper> something about those things really freaked me out as a kid when i watched some abduction movie
20090206 09:36:23< Jetrel> zookeeper:  I'm curious, just for my ongoing research on human psychology - do you think it's the eyes that bug you about greys?
20090206 09:36:28< zookeeper> i've never been afraid of "monsters" or any of that stuff, but i was seriously afraid of aliens as a kid
20090206 09:36:33< zookeeper> Jetrel, absolutely
20090206 09:36:35< Jetrel> or the otherwise featureless faces?
20090206 09:36:50< zookeeper> that too, i guess. and the body shape
20090206 09:37:25< Jetrel> hmm.
20090206 09:39:14< zookeeper> brrh. it's not like i'd still be afraid of running into any when going through a dark patch of woods, but i'm not actively seeking to watch any related material either :)
20090206 09:39:46< Jetrel> Yeah.  For me, I don't have too many natural phobias.
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20090206 09:40:35< Jetrel> I have a normal level of "fear of heights, clausterphobia".  I have no fear of fire.  I have a slightly lower than normal fear of the dark.
20090206 09:41:04< Jetrel> Except when no one else is around for a few days and Mr. Spooky comes back to visit. ?_?
20090206 09:41:08< zookeeper> oh, i have quite a fear of heights too, but i don't really thing that counts as a "fear"
20090206 09:41:12< zookeeper> it's just an instinct
20090206 09:41:41< Jetrel> However, I do have a strong-ish phobia of most insects, with only a few exceptions (the one exception I can think of being ants).
20090206 09:41:56< zookeeper> i mean, i wouldn't be afraid of going somewhere high, i just can't really peek over the ledge except for very briefly
20090206 09:42:00< Dragonking> ok, I disappear to make sure I am on time, cu at FOSDEM :)
20090206 09:42:02< Jetrel> Pretty much anything that "suddenly flips open" freaks me out.
20090206 09:42:06< Mordante> Shadow_Master, YogiHH that define TDRAWING_BUFFER_USES_VECTOR is left since I still need to profile the code
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20090206 09:42:30< Jetrel> So, I'm scared of wasps, beetles, and even moths and butterflies.
20090206 09:42:36< Mordante> I did it with some test data but I want to retest later to see what of the two methods is faster
20090206 09:42:43< Jetrel> It's weird as hell - I mean, it's instinctual.
20090206 09:42:55< Mordante> so it should be set in the code and not by the build system
20090206 09:43:03< zookeeper> eh, a lot of insects (wasps, spiders) freak me out if they surprise me, but it's not like thinking about it gives me any creeps. it's just a physical panic when something suddenly buzzes into my ear :P
20090206 09:43:09< Jetrel> I've _always_ been scared shitless of these things, ever since I was really young.
20090206 09:43:42< Jetrel> These days, I'm a big boy, and I can hold them in my hand, but the instinctual fear is never going to leave me, I fear.
20090206 09:44:02< Jetrel> (Since I think it is an honest-to-god instinct, and not a learned behaviour.)
20090206 09:44:16< zookeeper> i make quite a distinction between things that instinctively make me go YIKES and stuff which is actually psychologically disturbing
20090206 09:45:23< zookeeper> things like alien abduction and torture are psychologically disturbing, whereas i know wasps are all nice and cool, but i still go into panic mode if one buzzes by too close
20090206 09:45:26< Jetrel> Yeah, a nasty double-whammy for me is insects that lay their eggs in live human flesh.  That's like the aliens thing and my fear of bugs, combined.
20090206 09:45:34< zookeeper> ahah
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20090206 09:47:47< zookeeper> but i have little aversion to scenes of regular violence, killing, chestbursters or whatever. some scenes can be made to be like that of course
20090206 09:47:52 * zookeeper is trying to think up some example
20090206 09:48:32< Jetrel> Yeah, regular violence doesn't bug me in and of itself.  I've been thoroughly desensitized.
20090206 09:49:04< Jetrel> Violence in certain situations, like the "beating a prisoner to death" scene at the start of shawshank redemption, does bug me.
20090206 09:49:11< zookeeper> yeah
20090206 09:49:25< Jetrel> It's not the violence, it's the helplessness and the brutality that bugs me.
20090206 09:49:31< zookeeper> that's a good example, i find that rather disturbing too
20090206 09:53:12< Jetrel> An odd candidate for a scary movie I saw recently was that M Night Shamaylan film signs.  I found it honestly scary, and it was all a function of the dramatic buildup, because the actual aliens themselves in it were fairly lame.
20090206 09:53:34< Jetrel> But it really hammers home to me that fear is so much a function of build-up.
20090206 09:53:52< Jetrel> ¬_¬  Kinda like sex, I suppose.
20090206 09:55:12< zookeeper> signs? well, i haven't seen it so i couldn't tell if it's scary, but it's it otherwise pretty crap, like in terms of a really crappy plot and so on?
20090206 09:55:30< Jetrel> No, it's a great film.
20090206 09:55:42< Jetrel> The plot is simple, and a bit meh.
20090206 09:55:48< Jetrel> Et cetera.
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20090206 09:56:22< Jetrel> But it's a great film, though.   It's absolutely amazing how that director took something that stupid, and made it scary.
20090206 09:56:51< zookeeper> right
20090206 09:58:06< Jetrel> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fb6mYxVgX_A
20090206 09:58:10< zookeeper> there was some torture scenes in "audition" i think. i don't remember too clearly, except that i found them disturbing
20090206 10:01:48< CIA-70> mordante * r32622 /trunk/src/text.cpp: 
20090206 10:01:48< CIA-70> Revert r32621.
20090206 10:01:48< CIA-70> YogiHH didn't actually want to commit the code and it breaks
20090206 10:01:48< CIA-70> compilation.
20090206 10:03:08< Jetrel> Righty0
20090206 10:03:16< Jetrel> Damn I need to get to sleep. :/
20090206 10:04:25< zookeeper> sweet dreams ^_^
20090206 10:05:40< Jetrel> Yeah.  Hopefully I won't have some horrific dream about dead gods eating the sky.
20090206 10:05:47< Jetrel> Gotta think positive. :]
20090206 10:06:59< zookeeper> hmh, the basic idea of the puzzle box in hellraiser is pretty disturbing. not the movies otherwise, though.
20090206 10:09:46 * Jetrel nods
20090206 10:09:50 * Jetrel tips hat
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20090206 10:13:29< zookeeper> oh, and the butterfly effect had several nasty ones too.
20090206 10:13:41< zookeeper> but i guess that's enough of that subject already ;)
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20090206 11:08:21< Ivanovic> FUCK!!!
20090206 11:08:43< freim> what?
20090206 11:08:44< Ivanovic> just got a message from Dragonking stating that all flights seem to be canceld or at least delayed due to the fog
20090206 11:10:31< Mordante> :-(
20090206 11:13:11< Mordante> any idea when they know more?
20090206 11:13:34< Ivanovic> no idea
20090206 11:13:42< Ivanovic> http://www.krakowairport.pl/en/18/3/32/Departures-online
20090206 11:13:49< Ivanovic> currently the list is not looking too good...
20090206 11:14:14< Ivanovic> Mordante: so we might be "a little" late...
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20090206 11:14:57< Mordante> which flight does he have, since there's a checkin of easyjet to Dortmund
20090206 11:15:04< Ivanovic> yes, that is his
20090206 11:15:13< Ivanovic> but today no machine so far has left the airport
20090206 11:15:21< Ivanovic> so it might be delayed a lot or even be canceled
20090206 11:16:03< Mordante> I love the legend " 	Delayed / Check-in on schedule" :-/
20090206 11:16:15< Ivanovic> http://www.wetter.com/wetter_aktuell/wettervorhersage/3_tagesvorhersage/?id=PL0MA0001
20090206 11:16:17< Ivanovic> ugh
20090206 11:16:26< Ivanovic> fog all day regarding this site...
20090206 11:17:07< Mordante> until tomorrow morning :-(
20090206 11:17:19< Ivanovic> at 12:05 i will probably get some data if the flight will leave...
20090206 11:19:15< Mordante> it really sucks especially if he can't fly today it makes no sense to travel to Dortmund
20090206 11:19:21< Ivanovic> Mordante: yes
20090206 11:20:06< Mordante> I also wonder what that means for ilor...
20090206 11:20:07< Ivanovic> i hope the fog gets a little thinner, so that machines can start soon
20090206 11:20:25< Ivanovic> 13:30  	SN 2548  	Brussels (BRU)  	Brussels Airlines  	 on time 
20090206 11:20:28< Ivanovic> ;)
20090206 11:21:25< Mordante> I read that, only not sure how much faith I should have in it ;-)
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20090206 11:21:33< Ivanovic> yeah
20090206 11:21:45< Ivanovic> Mordante: i will know a little more before leaving
20090206 11:22:14< Ivanovic> Mordante: just to be sure i will send you the confirmation mail for the booking, so that you have the booking number and can take the beds if DK and I are delayed for several hours
20090206 11:22:31< Mordante> I just wanted to ask about that part ;-)
20090206 11:22:37< Ivanovic> or have i already forwarded it?
20090206 11:22:44< Mordante> do we need to pay with credit card?
20090206 11:22:56< Mordante> better forward it again, then I'll print it directly
20090206 11:23:35< Ivanovic> better not pay via credit card
20090206 11:23:43< Ivanovic> they charge an extra fee of some percent if you do
20090206 11:24:02< Mordante> I prefer cash as well ;-)
20090206 11:24:39< Ivanovic> okay, for the flight to dortmund check in is closed
20090206 11:24:46< Ivanovic> now lets hope that it will also depart...
20090206 11:25:28< Ivanovic> and in dortmund there are no delays listed so far either...
20090206 11:25:42< Ivanovic> http://www.dortmund-airport.de/ankunft.html?&L=1
20090206 11:26:16< Ivanovic> afk for half an hours
20090206 11:26:27< Mordante> I got your email
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20090206 11:35:37< EdB> hello
20090206 11:36:36< Mordante> hi EdB 
20090206 11:36:42< EdB> I go  /usr/include/boost-1_37/boost/iostreams/filter/symmetric.hpp:126: error: suggest parentheses around && within ||
20090206 11:36:44< EdB> got
20090206 11:37:21< loonycyborg> EdB: Pester boost people about that :)
20090206 11:37:26< EdB> Is there an option to tell gcc to avoid system header check ?
20090206 11:37:31< Mordante> either fix boost or compile without strict compilation
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20090206 11:57:37< Ivanovic> just got a message from DK
20090206 11:57:47< Ivanovic> his flight will be delayed, he will know more in ~20mins
20090206 11:58:10< Ivanovic> and the web also just says "delayed", nothing more at all...
20090206 11:58:56< Mordante> doesn't look too hopeful :-(
20090206 11:59:07< Ivanovic> jupp
20090206 11:59:40< Ivanovic> okay, the easyjet machine from dortmund to krakow (the one which will probably return with DK) ist listed as departed in time
20090206 12:00:07< Ivanovic> was meant to arrive at 11:35, just marked as "delayed" so far
20090206 12:02:00< Mordante> well it was listed before as checking in so I assume he's in the plane
20090206 12:02:11< Ivanovic> i don'T
20090206 12:02:12< Mordante> waiting whether or not it will take off
20090206 12:02:24< Ivanovic> checking in just means that they are taking the bags
20090206 12:03:10< Ivanovic> boarding means that he is in the machine
20090206 12:03:41< Mordante> well there's no boarding status so I try to be optimistic
20090206 12:03:51< Ivanovic> and 30mins time for a stop sounds reasonable if they don't have to get fuel in
20090206 12:04:18< Ivanovic> that is: just get people and bags out quickly and get bags and people in again
20090206 12:06:29< Ivanovic> wow, several other machines are expected early in dormtund
20090206 12:06:38< Ivanovic> that is: still no info about the one from krakow
20090206 12:07:41< Ivanovic> ahh, the machine from dortmund arrived
20090206 12:07:51< Ivanovic> so probably just some 30mins delay
20090206 12:12:47< Ivanovic> but the website of the krakow airport is rather bad
20090206 12:13:01< Ivanovic> since they just say "delayed" but no numbers about "how much"
20090206 12:14:11< Ivanovic> message from DK: "In bus, waiting to board the plan :-)"
20090206 12:14:20< Mordante> Ivanovic there exists a status boarding :)
20090206 12:14:21< Ivanovic> Mordante: so expect me ~30mins late
20090206 12:16:00< Ivanovic> (that is: if the streets are perfectly free, we directly catch a bus and so on we *might* make it for 6pm at 2go4
20090206 12:16:07< Ivanovic> but i would not bet on this...)
20090206 12:16:08< Ivanovic> ;)
20090206 12:16:34< Ivanovic> Mordante: how are traffic jams in the netherlands at about 15:30?
20090206 12:16:42< Ivanovic> that is: around venlo and going south
20090206 12:17:25< Ivanovic> using this way: http://maps.google.de/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=Dortmund+-+Flughafen&daddr=%C3%89mile+Jacqmainlaan+99,+1000+Brussels,+Belgium&hl=en&geocode=Cf8TKHkME7OTFX0bEgMdByd0ACGKLRtpEtBXlg%3B&mra=pe&mrcr=0&sll=51.18648,5.983865&sspn=2.923227,4.004517&ie=UTF8&ll=51.072468,6.064453&spn=2.930433,4.004517&z=8
20090206 12:19:04< Mordante> you drive to the hostel?
20090206 12:19:16< Ivanovic> Mordante: no, i just had the hostel in the log
20090206 12:19:23< Ivanovic> i drive to ULB
20090206 12:19:49< Mordante> ok
20090206 12:20:18< Ivanovic> since parking in town is a) expensive and b) difficult (just have a look at the sat images around the hostel and you will see what i mean)
20090206 12:20:42< Mordante> well I also park at ULB
20090206 12:20:45< Ivanovic> what i am interested in: is A73 in the netherlands now completed?
20090206 12:21:01< Ivanovic> last year it was not and i was driving via those small villages (worked well, too)
20090206 12:21:14< Ivanovic> and: how bad traffic jams do i have to expect in this area?
20090206 12:21:45< Mordante> they expect a normal evening and some traffic jams where the A73 and A2 merge and some close to Maastricht on the A2
20090206 12:22:33< Mordante> no idea whether the A73 has been finished, I don't drive there often if at all
20090206 12:22:40< Ivanovic> i hope i won't get too close to maastricht since i already leave to belgium at geleen
20090206 12:23:01< Ivanovic> hmm, i will see how it goes
20090206 12:23:28< Mordante> true then only where the A73 and A2 merge
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20090206 12:25:32< Ivanovic> i guess that finding a gas station will be the biggest problem
20090206 12:26:12< Mordante> diesel or gasoline?
20090206 12:26:16< Ivanovic> diesel
20090206 12:26:35< Ivanovic> you know one close to ULB?
20090206 12:26:36< Mordante> that should be cheaper in the Netherlands
20090206 12:26:56< Ivanovic> won't help me much at all, all i manage with my car is 350km on motorways...
20090206 12:27:15< Ivanovic> so one way over and the filling up in brussels then the way back
20090206 12:27:15< Mordante> Netherlands Brussels is more?
20090206 12:27:48< Mordante> but I'll have a navigation system with me this year ;-)
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20090206 12:28:12< Ivanovic> whimp...
20090206 12:28:19< Ivanovic> i got DK with me and X maps
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20090206 12:28:30< Mordante> I'm lazy 
20090206 12:28:32< Ivanovic> (that is: several of those are screenshots from maps.google.com on my tablet)
20090206 12:28:37< Mordante> going to pack some things 
20090206 12:29:52 * Mordante had some bad memories of navigators, his own memory was better as the one with the map...
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20090206 12:30:03< Ivanovic> okay, the plane is delayed about 45mins
20090206 12:41:21< Ivanovic> okay, the plane departed
20090206 12:41:27< Ivanovic> so "only" some 35mins...
20090206 12:47:57< Ivanovic> Mordante: okay, regarding wikipedia it *seems* to be done now
20090206 12:48:12< Ivanovic> http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rijksweg_73
20090206 12:56:25< Ivanovic> Mordante: uhm, can you summon up shortly what is written in the paragraph "A73-Zuid: Venlo-Maasbracht" on the wikipedia link?
20090206 12:56:54< Ivanovic> that is: do i understand it correctly, that the tunnel is still not really open and thus i will have some "interesting time" around roermond?
20090206 12:57:16< Mordante> I just packed my stuff and about to leave, /me reads wikipedia
20090206 13:02:02< Ivanovic> okay, expected arrival for DK in dortmund is 14:07 atm
20090206 13:02:24< Ivanovic> so i will leave here in about 45mins
20090206 13:02:54< Mordante> looks like they closed a tunnel and it will be closed until March 
20090206 13:03:12< Ivanovic> hmm, okay, will see what they have as way around this...
20090206 13:03:13< Mordante> they expect the delay to be thirty minutes
20090206 13:03:35< Mordante> normally it's arranged pretty well in the Netherlands
20090206 13:03:46< Ivanovic> in my plans i expected the drive to be via those "small" streets all down from venlo anyway
20090206 13:03:48< Ivanovic> ;)
20090206 13:03:58< Ivanovic> (just like last year)
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20090206 13:04:11< Mordante> ugh well have fun with it
20090206 13:04:38< Mordante> somehow driving through the villages sucks in the Netherlands, I rather do that in Germany
20090206 13:04:51< Ivanovic> like i said: it might well be 7pm till i arrive at the hostel
20090206 13:04:56< Ivanovic> will send an sms when at ulb
20090206 13:05:08< Mordante> should I then checkin?
20090206 13:05:30< Ivanovic> i'd say: lets see when i am at ulb
20090206 13:05:41< Ivanovic> i guess that it will be before 6
20090206 13:05:53< Ivanovic> you should not check in before 6, that is
20090206 13:06:14< Ivanovic> when we are at ulb right at 6 we should manage to be at the hostel till before 7, then i can do the checkin stuff
20090206 13:06:41< Ivanovic> (before they ask questions like "hey, you are not nils kneuper, are you a group travelling, groups are not allowed here..." and stuff like this
20090206 13:06:56< Mordante> I'll let you know when I'm at ULB and then you can send your eta
20090206 13:06:59< Ivanovic> just if we end in a really bad traffic jam and will be at the hostel post 7 you should check in
20090206 13:07:05< Ivanovic> sounds good to me
20090206 13:07:39< Mordante> well you ordered six beds... so they might expect six persons to show up ;-)
20090206 13:08:02< Ivanovic> :)
20090206 13:08:29< Mordante> but we'll see I really have to leave otherwise I will really be late
20090206 13:08:43< Ivanovic> cu in brussels
20090206 13:09:23< Mordante> yeah see you later
20090206 13:09:54< Mordante> AI0867 in case you read the logs I might be a little bit later, will leave in 10 minutes
20090206 13:10:04< Mordante> bye
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20090206 13:43:29< Ivanovic> off to brussels, cu
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20090206 19:20:30< JonW> I have received an email back from the people at fsf regarding updating their database see this link http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m138ef6e5 
20090206 19:20:51< JonW> holds the letter!
20090206 19:22:11< JonW> I mentioned this about 11:30 on this changel on 2of feb 2009
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20090206 19:34:46< Sirp> JonW_: cool; thanks.
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20090206 19:36:10< dapounet> hello
20090206 19:37:09< dapounet> have you considered using SFML instead of SDL ?
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20090206 19:39:25< Soliton> i don't think so.
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20090206 20:01:21< [Relic]> Hello :)
20090206 20:02:16< Sirp> what is SFML?
20090206 20:02:42< loonycyborg> http://www.sfml-dev.org/index.php perhaps?
20090206 20:04:16< loonycyborg> It doesn't seem to be in portage..
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20090206 20:40:37< Shadow_Master> hi
20090206 20:43:00< loonycyborg> ESR_: I need a legal advice to hopefully resolve the problem of not being able to ship msvcr71.dll
20090206 20:43:47< loonycyborg> GPL2 would require me to provide access to its source if I included it in the installer, while GPL3 wouldn't
20090206 20:44:27< loonycyborg> Can I just distribute the installer unde GPL3(considering that wesnoth is GPL2+)
20090206 20:44:31< loonycyborg> ?
20090206 20:47:26< silene> be careful with what you do; you are not allowed to redistribute msvcr71.dll under any other license than the ones microsoft allows you to (and gpl is certainly not one of them)
20090206 20:48:09< silene> you can aggregate it to something else, but it has to keep its own license
20090206 20:48:22< Shadow_Master> loonycyborg: can't you make the installer contact MS' download site to fetch the MSVC++ RT redistributable?
20090206 20:48:27< Shadow_Master> rt: runtime
20090206 20:48:39< silene> in particular, it will never be under gpl2, so you are not bound to the requirement of providing tis source
20090206 20:48:55< silene> (but you are bound to other requirements)
20090206 20:50:40< loonycyborg> Shadow_Master: I'll explore that option once I exhaust all others :)
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20090206 21:01:40< VladimirSlavik> loonycyborg: why do you have to honour gpl in an installer?
20090206 21:02:25< Shadow_Master> ambiguity of GPL version 2 probably.
20090206 21:02:47< loonycyborg> VladimirSlavik: gpl2 requires the source to be available for all binaries I distribute.
20090206 21:03:17< loonycyborg> That are required for the gpl program to work.
20090206 21:03:43< VladimirSlavik> you can assume it's part of the operating system (which it is)
20090206 21:03:54< VladimirSlavik> I never read anything about that...
20090206 21:03:54< Shadow_Master> when that thing was written, MS Windows was not so popular.
20090206 21:04:37< loonycyborg> While GPL3 doesn't require source for proprietiary implementations of open standards for which FLOSS implementation exists.
20090206 21:05:26< silene> loonycyborg: come on, i already explained it, gpl2 requires you to distribute the source of the binaries, but only if these binaries are distributed under gpl2, so this does not apply; what does apply is the eula of microsoft
20090206 21:05:33< loonycyborg> msvcr71.dll is implementation of standard C runtime library and glibc implements it too..
20090206 21:06:28< Shadow_Master> that applies as long as we don't use one of the funny smelling MS C features.
20090206 21:07:00< Shadow_Master> otherwise msvcrt71.dll can be defined as an implementation of non-open non-standards thingies as well.
20090206 21:07:37< Shadow_Master> what could they do anyway? sue us for a stupid DLL distributed in binary-only form?
20090206 21:08:31< Shadow_Master> I'm sure that this is not the first OSS project that stumbles upon this annoyance.
20090206 21:08:42< VladimirSlavik> hmmm
20090206 21:08:57< VladimirSlavik> could you bypass it by using an instaler in installer?
20090206 21:09:40< loonycyborg> silene: That's from GPL2: http://rafb.net/p/K0CKGs85.html
20090206 21:10:30< loonycyborg> It explicitly excludes system libraries with the exception of ones distributed with the app.
20090206 21:11:06< loonycyborg> Consequently, you can assume that sourcecode requirement applies to system libraries too otherwise.
20090206 21:11:15< VladimirSlavik> wow, you're right
20090206 21:14:57< silene> indeed, that's troubling; i wonder how they solved it for python
20090206 21:15:54< Shadow_Master> Python is not distributed under the GNU GPL
20090206 21:16:20< Shadow_Master> they use a "Python Software Foundation License version 2" for python2.5
20090206 21:16:28< silene> i know, but they say their license is compatible with it (so that you can distribute python with your gpl python script)
20090206 21:17:26< Shadow_Master> it doesn't seem to be a viral license like the GPL.
20090206 21:17:44< VladimirSlavik> well direction of compatibility matters so probably psfl -> gpl, but gpl -x-> psfl
20090206 21:18:59< silene> Shadow_Master: that's not what i meant; they say you can distribute a python binary with you gpl python script to run it; this is fine because  you have access to python source code; this is not fine because you don't have access to msvcr71.dll which is distributed along the way
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20090206 21:32:32< fabi_> would a standard unit filter in a message always choice the same unit if there are severals that match?
20090206 21:33:53< zookeeper> probably
20090206 21:34:10< zookeeper> it might always choose the top left one.
20090206 21:35:23< zookeeper> loonycyborg, you wouldn't have a new build ready for uploading, would you?
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20090206 21:44:44< silene> fabi_: not necessarily, they are sometimes iterated over by going through their internal id (that's the case for "store_unit" for instance), which are not serialized, so the order will change
20090206 21:46:00< zookeeper> silene, you sure about that? maybe that's been changed, but i'm pretty sure that at some point it tended to take the top left one...
20090206 21:47:14< silene> agreed, four years ago, it was the case; but in the meantime, someone implemented the underlying_id thingie, so this no longer holds
20090206 21:48:34< silene> units are no longer sorted with respect to their position (which kind of makes sense, since you don't want to bother reordering them whenever a unit moves)
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20090206 21:50:16< CIA-70> torangan * r32623 /trunk/po/ (3 files in 3 dirs): swedish translation update
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20090206 21:57:06< loonycyborg> zookeeper: I upload only releases. Trunk binaries are built on the server. :)
20090206 21:57:26< zookeeper> loonycyborg, oh, right
20090206 21:57:27< loonycyborg> Trunk binary is updated btw.
20090206 21:57:29< zookeeper> thanks!
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20090206 22:06:56< Shadow_Master> zookeeper: can you remind me what was the reason for hiding the mixed forest tiles?
20090206 22:07:35< zookeeper> nothing too specific
20090206 22:07:49< zookeeper> i didn't have time to really think it through that well
20090206 22:07:56< CIA-70> shadowmaster * r32624 /trunk/data/core/images/portraits/ARTISTS: Converted file with charset Windows codepage 1252 (US) to UTF-8.
20090206 22:12:39< zookeeper> i have to say that the cutscene in the beginning of "captured" in EI has never made any kind of sense to me.
20090206 22:13:59< Shadow_Master> I have to remind you that the whole cowardly-officers-that-flee-from-Wesnoth scheme is weird.
20090206 22:14:25< zookeeper> and that dacyn needs to hide in the first scenario, but not in mal-ravanal's capital.
20090206 22:14:46< zookeeper> the whole campaign is kinda full of things not making any sense :P
20090206 22:15:05< zookeeper> but IIRC that was turin's first campaign anyway
20090206 22:15:58< Shadow_Master> he admited it wasn't his best campaign sometime ago.
20090206 22:17:30< zookeeper> i don't want it removed from mainline since it's not entirely sucky, but it'd be nice if...well, if half of it got more or less rewritten ;)
20090206 22:18:58< Sirp> maybe we should ask turin if he thinks it should be removed from mainline and replaced with one of his newer campaigns, and if he will be willing to do the work on the upgrade?
20090206 22:20:04< loonycyborg> Does turing have any new campaigns that don't use Imperial Era? :)
20090206 22:20:12< loonycyborg> *turin
20090206 22:20:30< zookeeper> no
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20090206 22:20:46< zookeeper> all the newer ones are IE campaigns
20090206 22:20:58< kitty_> hi
20090206 22:21:03< Sirp> hi kitty_ 
20090206 22:21:23< Shadow_Master> hi kitty_ 
20090206 22:22:03< Shadow_Master> except Sceptre of Fire, which was already mainlined
20090206 22:23:15< Sirp> ahhh
20090206 22:23:32 * Sirp wonders if suggesting that allowing mainlining of the imperial era might be feasible would get him lynched.
20090206 22:23:43< zookeeper> most likely
20090206 22:23:54< Sirp> well okay, kitty_ would probably kill me because it'd make more portraits to do. :)
20090206 22:24:08< Sirp> so okay, maybe not.
20090206 22:24:09< Shadow_Master> aargh IE sasfassdfsdf
20090206 22:24:13< kitty_> arg
20090206 22:24:39< zookeeper> i mean, no one would use the word "lynch" about the founder and lead developer, but that's still what'd be on their minds ;)
20090206 22:25:25< kitty_> but actually i'm quite interested in roman armour and the like... 
20090206 22:25:25< Sirp> sure they would. :)
20090206 22:26:00< zookeeper> i wish some more people would be interested in developing the existing campaigns though. it's not like we don't have a lot of poorly designed scenarios and other relics in mainline campaigns.
20090206 22:26:11< Sirp> kitty_: oh really? Have you met turin? He would probably be your new best friend....
20090206 22:26:15< Shadow_Master> yes, Battle for Wesnoth for instance.
20090206 22:26:20< zookeeper> yeah ;)
20090206 22:26:28< Sirp> other than that I suspect you hold very different political/social/religious views. :)
20090206 22:26:53< Shadow_Master> I'd rename it to "Battle for Peanuts" for now.
20090206 22:26:56< Sirp> zookeeper: I agree, unfortunately stuff like that isn't as "glamorous" :-/
20090206 22:27:08< kitty_> Sirp: only on the forums - and only after we have finished the rest of the generic mainline portraits... but perhaps
20090206 22:32:31< zookeeper> i'd like to think i've rewritten the most obnoxious scenarios already, but there's still a lot left which have features that could be done so much more smoothly with non-ancient engine features
20090206 22:32:40< thespaceinvader> hey kityy_
20090206 22:32:43< thespaceinvader> how's things?
20090206 22:32:55< thespaceinvader> *hey kitty_ even
20090206 22:33:50< kitty_> hi thespaceinvader 
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20090206 22:38:17< zookeeper> there's a pretty high threshold for starting to fiddle with an established mainline campaign scenario too, since you really don't want to break it. i know i've broken "gathering materials" probably four times :x
20090206 22:39:01< Shadow_Master> jeje
20090206 22:39:28< Shadow_Master> that's no problem! you could count how many times we've broken perfectly valid WML with changes in the engine!
20090206 22:40:57< CIA-70> shadowmaster * r32625 /trunk/src/widgets/progressbar.cpp: Lit up the progress bar selected text colour a bit (#BBBBBB -> #CCCCCC).
20090206 22:41:34< zookeeper> well usually you don't break the same spot a lot of times ;) except that some animation bugs just always reappear.
20090206 22:41:54< Shadow_Master> argh, the lit-up progress bar text isn't working properly.
20090206 22:42:36< Shadow_Master> it fails at low percentages
20090206 22:44:39< thespaceinvader> kitty_: updates posted =)
20090206 22:46:47< kitty_> looking better! although now the reflection on his breastplate has to meet the on on the belly.... and you could really smoothen it out more... argh, i wish we had lordbob helping you out... metal isn't my specialty
20090206 22:47:19< thespaceinvader> nyah, i know - it's been a bane of mine for my entire artistic career
20090206 22:47:50< kitty_> yeah, other stuff like cloth is just easier to reference...
20090206 22:48:11< thespaceinvader> mm indeed
20090206 22:48:21< thespaceinvader> metal's troublesome because of all the reflections
20090206 22:48:23< Shadow_Master> unless you've got an armory in your house
20090206 22:48:45< thespaceinvader> our metal tends to look a little plasticky simply because real metal at that level of shine shows EVERYTHIGN reflected in it...
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20090206 22:49:00< kitty_> but we show them in all kind of enviros...
20090206 22:49:20< thespaceinvader> which is another part of the problem =P
20090206 22:49:35< thespaceinvader> but tbh, i like the way these metals are coming out.
20090206 22:50:07< kitty_> that'S why i keep mine pretty generic most of the time... just metal-y in some way or another
20090206 22:52:41< thespaceinvader> yeah, it's what i'm going for with these dwarves
20090206 22:52:56< thespaceinvader> though tbh i'll be glad to get finished on the big areas of shiny
20090206 22:53:09< thespaceinvader> they're coming out nicely, but they're a nightmare to do...
20090206 22:53:25< kitty_> what kind of brushes do you use?
20090206 22:53:41< kitty_> i'd use mostly soft ones plus some harder ones for accents
20090206 22:54:07< thespaceinvader> mostly fairly hard-edged, actually
20090206 22:54:18< thespaceinvader> following the tutorial lordbob posted
20090206 22:54:20< ESR_> loonycyborg: You rang?
20090206 22:54:27< thespaceinvader> i haven't quite his level of finesse, though
20090206 22:54:42< kitty_> thespaceinvader: is that your problem or what is the "nightmare"?
20090206 22:55:01< loonycyborg> ESR_: Yes. Read the discussion above.
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20090206 22:55:36< thespaceinvader> just generally... metals are very unforgiving when it comes to shading - high contrast and reflections are difficult to get right, and it tends not to look right when they're even a little off
20090206 22:55:48< ESR_> thespaceinvader: A CGI guy will tell you that the right way  to model metal is with a mix of diffuse and specular reflection.
20090206 22:55:49< thespaceinvader> on which note, i've updated the sentinel again...
20090206 22:55:51< loonycyborg> ESR_: The one about GPL2-3
20090206 22:56:04< thespaceinvader> ESR_ yeah, that's what I aim for
20090206 22:56:16< thespaceinvader> ESR_: also, are you still maintaining tHoT?
20090206 22:56:50< ESR_> thespaceinvader: Wekk, yeah.  I write it, sio it's my problem :-)
20090206 22:56:55< kitty_> thespaceinvader: the nose is still seen from an angle while the face is seen straight ahead....
20090206 22:57:00< ESR_> s/Wekk/Well/
20090206 22:57:24< thespaceinvader> kitty_: on the zerker? yeah, i'd not done anythign to that since the previous version...
20090206 22:57:29< thespaceinvader> i'll be working on him tomorrow
20090206 22:57:50< kitty_> yeah, the ulf. did you update the sentinel, too?
20090206 22:57:52< thespaceinvader> ESR_: i was playing through yesterday...; there's some minor issues with the way Karrag's unit is animating in the final scenario
20090206 22:58:36< thespaceinvader> firstly, his ranged animation plays like a melee - he moves into the attacked unit.  I'd intended him to be standing in place, building then launching a projectile
20090206 22:58:50< thespaceinvader> and he's actually moving back on the strike for the  melee attack
20090206 22:58:58< thespaceinvader> though he could have used a recovery frame i now realise...
20090206 22:59:48< thespaceinvader> kitty_: you should know by now this forum never lets people off on with leaving things in that they know are wrong but thought they might get away with :P
20090206 23:00:04< kitty_> :P
20090206 23:00:24< ESR_> thespaceinvader: Urrr...I sort of theoretically know what to do about stuff like that, but the right person to prod is boucmabn or zookeeper. They could fix this in five minutes.
20090206 23:00:37< thespaceinvader> ah ok
20090206 23:00:44< ESR_> Hi, kitty :-)
20090206 23:00:52< thespaceinvader> i'll see if either of them are listening =D
20090206 23:00:53< kitty_> hi ESR_ 
20090206 23:01:16< thespaceinvader> on another note, i'll be reworking those tHoT portraits vaguely soon (man, they are ass-ugly, aren't they...)
20090206 23:01:36< thespaceinvader> but not too soon - I wanna get some orcses and drakeses out the way first...
20090206 23:02:02< ESR_> thespaceinvader: The Karrag one was brillant.
20090206 23:02:14< thespaceinvader> yeah - i was pleased with it
20090206 23:02:15< Shadow_Master> thespaceinvader: I'd love to keep Hamel's expression :)
20090206 23:02:21< thespaceinvader> that's the one that needs least work
20090206 23:02:33< thespaceinvader> Shadow_Master: there's a lot i'm intending to keep
20090206 23:02:45< Shadow_Master> thespaceinvader: btw...
20090206 23:02:47< thespaceinvader> some of it will be simple re-shading and a bit of proper anatomy on the faces
20090206 23:02:49< Shadow_Master> wesbot: log 32624
20090206 23:02:54< wesbot> shadowmaster * r32624 : Converted file with charset Windows codepage 1252 (US) to UTF-8.
20090206 23:02:57< wesbot> URL: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth?view=rev&rev=32624
20090206 23:03:13< Shadow_Master> thespaceinvader: keep in mind for the future. Set your editor to UTF-8 (or use an editor that supports that)
20090206 23:03:22< thespaceinvader> notepad++ ok?
20090206 23:03:33< Shadow_Master> yes, it can be switched to UTF-8
20090206 23:04:00< ESR_> thespaceinvader: One feature I'd like you not to lose; Angarthing's eyes looking large, slightly oversized, and intense.  He's a Witness, it's his job to *see*; it works.
20090206 23:04:02< thespaceinvader> with or without BOM?
20090206 23:04:03< Shadow_Master> it's my editor of preference when in Windows. But I haven't used Windows for almost two years.
20090206 23:04:16< thespaceinvader> ESR_: sure
20090206 23:04:24< thespaceinvader> don't expect anything too quickly though
20090206 23:04:46< thespaceinvader> it definitely won't be before 1.6, probably be a few dev versions beyond that before i get round to it
20090206 23:04:50< Shadow_Master> thespaceinvader: without BOM should work. No idea about with BOMB
20090206 23:04:53< Shadow_Master> *BOM
20090206 23:04:58< thespaceinvader> damnit, i have too many projects atm...
20090206 23:05:16< thespaceinvader> I just ask because np++ gives the option...
20090206 23:05:24< Shadow_Master> apparently my editor doesn't care
20090206 23:05:38< Shadow_Master> it just tries to have UTF-8 as ASCII-compatible as possible, so without BOM probably
20090206 23:05:47< thespaceinvader> lol
20090206 23:05:49< thespaceinvader> yeah
20090206 23:05:58 * thespaceinvader has very little clue what it all means
20090206 23:06:06 * Shadow_Master too.
20090206 23:06:23< thespaceinvader> does this mean that the accents on the names no longer work?
20090206 23:06:39< thespaceinvader> or will they just need to be put in again in UTF8 format?
20090206 23:06:56< Shadow_Master> thespaceinvader: my editor automatically converted the accents from CP1252 to UTF8
20090206 23:07:23< thespaceinvader> cos in artists, girgistan's name and sleepwalkers are both broken where they had accents
20090206 23:07:43< thespaceinvader> in the revision you linked o
20090206 23:08:17< Shadow_Master> that's weird...
20090206 23:08:28< Shadow_Master> I'm seing an é and an ö
20090206 23:08:29< zookeeper> thespaceinvader, hmh, what do you need?
20090206 23:08:46< Shadow_Master> thespaceinvader: try another UTF-8 option?
20090206 23:08:51< thespaceinvader> minor issues with animations in the Runelord unit in tHoT
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20090206 23:09:29< thespaceinvader> Shadow_Master: maybe it's my browser then o_O
20090206 23:09:47< Shadow_Master> thespaceinvader: are you seeing it in the browser? pah, update your wokring copy and check the real file
20090206 23:09:57< zookeeper> thespaceinvader, yes?
20090206 23:10:00< thespaceinvader> Shadow_Master: good point
20090206 23:10:09< Shadow_Master> of course the browser will become confused if it sees a diff of  CP1252 vs. UTF-8
20090206 23:10:29< thespaceinvader> zookeeper: the ranged attack should stay still and use a projectile (the same one as the lich, maybe)
20090206 23:10:57< thespaceinvader> and the melee attack should move back after the last frame, currently it moves back during it, which is odd, cos the last frame is the striking one...
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20090206 23:11:53< zookeeper> right
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20090206 23:12:21< thespaceinvader> http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth/trunk/data/campaigns/The_Hammer_of_Thursagan/units/Dwarvish_Rune_Lord.cfg?rev=29094&view=markup this unit, btw
20090206 23:12:22< zookeeper> isn't it kinda straightforward how all that should be done?
20090206 23:12:36< thespaceinvader> probably, but i know no animation WML at all
20090206 23:12:53< zookeeper> esr should :p
20090206 23:13:35< thespaceinvader> i probably should, but i've had no time to learn
20090206 23:13:40< Shadow_Master> ESR_ should?
20090206 23:13:43< thespaceinvader> too many projects, far too little time
20090206 23:13:53< thespaceinvader> so i concentrate on my strengths =D
20090206 23:14:14< Shadow_Master> well, yeah, he should if he wrote the campaign :/
20090206 23:14:19< zookeeper> waah, the adept line has them written in a silly manner.
20090206 23:14:27< ESR_> zookeeper: That is the corner of WML about which I am most clueless, alas.
20090206 23:14:34< Shadow_Master> ESR_: the wiki
20090206 23:14:46< zookeeper> meh, i'll do it
20090206 23:15:15< thespaceinvader> zookeeper: ideally, if at all possible, the projectile should launch from the head of the hammer in the ranged anim
20090206 23:15:34< zookeeper> wtf, who made a chill tempest attack use the flail sounds
20090206 23:15:40< ESR_> zookeeper: Thanks.  The difference is, I'd be three hours figuring out what to do; for you it'll be like three minutes :-)
20090206 23:17:33< thespaceinvader> zookeeper: i can let you know where it needs to launch from iin terms of pixels, if that helps
20090206 23:17:55< zookeeper> thespaceinvader, not really, i'm afraid
20090206 23:18:02< thespaceinvader> ah, no worries
20090206 23:18:09< thespaceinvader> it's not a problem
20090206 23:19:47< CIA-70> fendrin * r32626 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/maps/ (5 files): Added new forest to LoW maps.
20090206 23:21:16< zookeeper> since i didn't get a reply the last time: should we make up some very simple rules about where on the wesnoth map deciduous forests would be used?
20090206 23:21:40< zookeeper> presumably we could try to have them a bit consistently prevalent or sparse in some regions
20090206 23:22:11< thespaceinvader> zookeeper: that seems like a reasonable proposition
20090206 23:22:39< thespaceinvader> but it should also be noted that altitude has a fairly major effect on forests as well as latitude
20090206 23:23:52< fabi_> zookeeper: I asked my sister who has a diploma in forestry. She eplained me the rules in which regions which forest grows.
20090206 23:24:29< loonycyborg> ESR_: So, what is your opinion on fixing the msvcr71.dll issue? Can I release the installer under GPLv3 somehow?
20090206 23:24:31< Shadow_Master> I'll stick this IRC log to my head then.
20090206 23:24:35< zookeeper> fabi_, awesome!
20090206 23:24:51 * loonycyborg doesn't feel support from our legal experts :)
20090206 23:25:30< ESR_> loonycyborg: Sorry, I was looking for it in the scrollback and got distracted by tsi about the animations.
20090206 23:25:35< ESR_> Hold on...
20090206 23:26:34< fabi_> zookeeper: what about the transitions for the forest tiles?
20090206 23:27:56 * Shadow_Master would like to see the mixed forest tiles revealed in the editor by default 
20090206 23:28:09 * fabi_ agrees
20090206 23:28:30< Shadow_Master> they may need some more distinguishable editor icons though.
20090206 23:28:55< Shadow_Master> I had to enable terrain codes to differentiate the mixed wintter tiles from the non-mixed winter deciduous tree tiles
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20090206 23:31:01< zookeeper> fabi_, i'll commit when i've had a proper look at them
20090206 23:31:08< ESR_> loonycyborg: We can;t sip a proprietary dll.  Whether or not GPL2 permits it isn't even the main issue, actionable theft is the main issue.  There is a standard workaround.
20090206 23:31:28< ESR_> s/can;t sip/can't ship/
20090206 23:32:19< CIA-70> zookeeper * r32627 /trunk/data/core/terrain.cfg: Enabled the mixed forests in the editor.
20090206 23:33:00< ESR_> The standard workaround is to include a URl to a llocation where the resource is legally available, then fetch it on the fly.  Yes, this is legally different from including it in the tarball.
20090206 23:33:57< Sirp> ESR_: but what if the dll is allowed to be redistributed? 
20090206 23:34:20< Sirp> and wouldn't it be "copyright infringement" rather than "theft"? :)
20090206 23:34:32< ESR_> Oh, *then* you get into GPL2/GPL3 issues.
20090206 23:34:33< loonycyborg> That dll is redistributable, permission granted by M$
20090206 23:35:00< Shadow_Master> loonycyborg: what are its license terms again?
20090206 23:35:14< Sirp> what do other GPL projects do?
20090206 23:35:20< loonycyborg> Shadow_Master: GPL or msvcr's?
20090206 23:35:43< Shadow_Master> I am sure I can find the GPL in 80% of my /usr/share/doc dir. I obviously meant MSVCRT's
20090206 23:35:44< loonycyborg> Sirp: All MIT/BSD projects are simply unaffected.
20090206 23:35:56< Sirp> Shadow_Master: do you really think the terms of a license written by Microsoft's lawyers can easily be summarized on IRC? :)
20090206 23:36:36< Shadow_Master> I was expecting a pastebin :)
20090206 23:37:02< Shadow_Master> (or would that be copyright infringment too?) :(
20090206 23:37:29< Shadow_Master> "You may not discuss the terms of this license in any public medium."
20090206 23:37:39< ESR_> OK, in that case we can probablty squeak past GPL restrictions.  It depends on the interpretation of the terms of art "linkage" and "system libaries", neither of which the licenses actually specify.  So you're left trying to interpret often-cloudy FSF diktats, and even that leaves you in uncertainth because to court has ruled.
20090206 23:39:05< CIA-70> zookeeper * r32628 /trunk/data/campaigns/The_Hammer_of_Thursagan/units/Dwarvish_Rune_Lord.cfg: Sanitized Karrag's animations.
20090206 23:39:06< zookeeper> now that definitely took more than three minutes.
20090206 23:39:14< ESR_> :-)
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20090206 23:42:04< VladimirSlavik> ESR_ could an option to be to ship installer within installer:
20090206 23:43:19-!- Netsplit kubrick.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: erl, Smar, law_, loonycyborg
20090206 23:43:48< Shadow_Master> poor loony
20090206 23:44:00< ESR_> VladimirSlavik: Yeah, that would be wise.  Gives you more distance from potential copyright violation, especially if there's a comfirtion prompt warning that the legal issues are tricky and do you want to continue?  That puts the onus on the user.
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20090206 23:44:34< VladimirSlavik> Although these things are hell or user...
20090206 23:44:39< ESR_> s/comfirtion/confirmation/
20090206 23:44:51-!- Netsplit over, joins: law_, erl, loonycyborg, Smar
20090206 23:44:51< VladimirSlavik> s/or/on/
20090206 23:45:00< VladimirSlavik> thanks for information
20090206 23:45:05< ESR_> VladimirSlavik: Closed source is hell on users.  It's not our fault.
20090206 23:45:40< silene> is there even such a thing as an installer for this dll? i thought the only legit installer containing it was visual studio's one
20090206 23:45:50< zookeeper> thespaceinvader, so, do the anims look right now?
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20090206 23:46:20< zookeeper> i forgot to use magic-dark-big sounds instead of magic-dark, feel free to change those two lines
20090206 23:46:22< VladimirSlavik> silene: well, that is still an open thing, but I remember one project that did exactly this, so it might be.
20090206 23:46:34< thespaceinvader> zookeeper: i'll check
20090206 23:46:38< Shadow_Master> silene: there's a installer
20090206 23:47:04< silene> do you have a link to it?
20090206 23:47:06< Shadow_Master> http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=32BC1BEE-A3F9-4C13-9C99-220B62A191EE&displaylang=en
20090206 23:47:16< silene> thanks
20090206 23:47:19< Shadow_Master> that's the MSVC++ 2005 redistributable. Which one do we need?
20090206 23:47:28< Shadow_Master> http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/info.aspx?na=47&p=1&SrcDisplayLang=en&SrcCategoryId=&SrcFamilyId=32bc1bee-a3f9-4c13-9c99-220b62a191ee&u=details.aspx%3ffamilyid%3d9B2DA534-3E03-4391-8A4D-074B9F2BC1BF%26displaylang%3den
20090206 23:47:40< Shadow_Master> MSVC++ 2008.. Not my fault about the length of the link
20090206 23:47:58< loonycyborg> I was looking for it too but I have problems finding anyting on microsoft's site..
20090206 23:51:02< silene> so this version is not redistributable, the installer would have to download it on behalf of the user
20090206 23:51:46 * Shadow_Master installing wine.
20090206 23:54:44< thespaceinvader> zookeeper: looks good, but is it possibly to not include the 'lightning crackle' portion of the ranged animation, and just have the actual projectile?
20090206 23:55:22< zookeeper> thespaceinvader, sure, just remove all the halo= and halo_y= lines from that anim
20090206 23:55:28< thespaceinvader> just cos i'd intended the hammer glowing thing to be the 'charging up' portion of the thing
20090206 23:55:32< thespaceinvader> ok cool thanks
20090206 23:56:04< Shadow_Master> I wonder if I can limit the bandwidth of my 'lo' network interface
20090206 23:57:26< zookeeper> thespaceinvader, if you need to have the projectile start at some specific offset, just give the [missile_frame] an x=4~0 and y=-3~0, i guess (for an offset of 4,-3). might not work nicely with all directions though, you'd have to test.
20090206 23:57:39< thespaceinvader> sure, ok
20090206 23:57:52< thespaceinvader> i'll check, but it looked like the default was actually pretty reasonable
--- Log closed Sat Feb 07 00:00:49 2009