--- Log opened Tue Feb 17 00:00:17 2009
20090217 00:01:47-!- Dragonking [n=dk@dedikerad/dragonking] has quit []
20090217 00:03:42-!- Turuk_ is now known as Turuk
20090217 00:10:17-!- Shadow_Master [n=imorelle@unaffiliated/shadowmaster/x-275924] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090217 00:16:02-!- Shadow_Master [n=imorelle@unaffiliated/shadowmaster/x-275924] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 00:24:56-!- vargavind [n=kess@90-231-233-50-no109.tbcn.telia.com] has quit ["Lämnar"]
20090217 00:31:07-!- jdjb [n=danny@CPE0016b6e698d9-CM0011e6ee1590.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090217 00:31:43-!- Miccoh [n=Miccoh@cs181114114.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Nyt tunnen kutsumusta vaaka-asentoon."]
20090217 00:38:59-!- vjoe [n=vjoe@hh088c.halls.manchester.ac.uk] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 00:45:34-!- kane77 [n=kane@194.1.130.108] has quit ["Off to the real world.."]
20090217 00:48:31-!- BenUrban [n=benurban@c-68-49-10-243.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 00:53:05-!- Corvvs [n=michaelm@pool-71-163-69-157.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit []
20090217 00:59:57-!- Espreon [n=espreon@c-76-117-239-33.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 01:00:20-!- |DAMAGE| [n=DAMAGE@ool-45711e58.dyn.optonline.net] has quit ["gone..."]
20090217 01:02:23-!- vjoe [n=vjoe@hh088c.halls.manchester.ac.uk] has quit ["leaving"]
20090217 01:07:57-!- Corvvs [n=michaelm@pool-71-163-69-157.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 01:18:27-!- shikadisvnbot [n=sh314001@190.22.111.25] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 01:18:36-!- shikadisvnbot is now known as shikadibot
20090217 01:25:34-!- Corvvs [n=michaelm@pool-71-163-69-157.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit []
20090217 01:48:48-!- Corvvs [n=michaelm@pool-71-163-69-157.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 01:51:54-!- vjoe [n=vjoe@hh088c.halls.manchester.ac.uk] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 01:55:56-!- Espreon [n=espreon@c-76-117-239-33.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)]
--- Log closed Tue Feb 17 02:04:48 2009
--- Log opened Tue Feb 17 02:04:54 2009
20090217 02:04:54-!- lobby [n=wesnoth@wesnoth.wesnoth.org] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 02:04:55-!- shikadibot [n=sh314001@190.22.111.25] has quit ["Lost terminal"]
20090217 02:19:14-!- vjoe [n=vjoe@hh088c.halls.manchester.ac.uk] has quit ["leaving"]
20090217 02:24:05-!- thespaceinvader [n=chatzill@91.108.179.72] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090217 02:42:28-!- Elvish_Pillage2 [n=eli@66-189-14-42.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 02:50:30-!- ilor [n=user@77-253-67-159.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
20090217 02:58:53-!- Elvish_Pillager [n=eli@66-189-14-42.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090217 03:12:52-!- Corvvs [n=michaelm@pool-71-163-69-157.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Cheers."]
20090217 03:13:25-!- Elvish_Pillage2 [n=eli@66-189-14-42.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit ["Hi! I'm a quit message virus vaccine. If you see a quit message virus, don't replace your quit message with it!"]
20090217 03:50:04-!- Shadow_Master [n=imorelle@unaffiliated/shadowmaster/x-275924] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 03:51:36-!- harryBer [n=harryBer@81.25.57.113] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 03:54:22-!- Espreon [n=espreon@c-76-117-239-33.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 04:07:53-!- harry1 [n=harryBer@81.25.57.113] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090217 04:19:09-!- Espreon [n=espreon@c-76-117-239-33.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090217 04:19:19-!- Shadow_Master [n=imorelle@unaffiliated/shadowmaster/x-275924] has quit ["There's a bug in my soup."]
20090217 04:21:26-!- Turuk [n=Turuk@FUSE-WS1-208-102-202-188.fuse.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
20090217 04:21:41-!- Turuk [n=Turuk@FUSE-WS1-208-102-202-188.fuse.net] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 04:35:06-!- Ivanovic_ [n=ivanovic@dtmd-4db2d245.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 04:44:34-!- edumacation [n=a@ip-152010172089.student.appstate.edu] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 04:44:39-!- edumacation is now known as Phantom
20090217 04:44:52-!- Ivanovic_ [n=ivanovic@dtmd-4db2d245.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090217 04:45:08-!- Phantom is now known as CTConqueror
20090217 04:48:10-!- Flower [n=DDoS@bas1-montreal02-1096725385.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090217 04:50:29-!- Ivanovic_ [n=ivanovic@dtmd-4db26ab7.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 04:51:07-!- Ivanovic [n=ivanovic@dtmd-4db2dac3.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090217 04:52:40-!- Ivanovic_ is now known as Ivanovic
20090217 05:40:43-!- QJ [i=qj@eldorado.elsewhere.org] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 05:40:54< QJ> guys, I'm playing wesnoth with my son and he did something and his main map turned into a mini map
20090217 05:41:03< QJ> I'm looking in the help but I can't find any shortcut to do this :/ anyone have some advice?
20090217 05:42:58< QJ> I thought it might be z/x for zoom but that isn't doing it
20090217 05:47:48< voris> zero
20090217 05:47:50< voris> 0
20090217 05:48:05< QJ> my wife figured it out, hitting + did it
20090217 05:48:09< QJ> <-- some nerd *sigh*
20090217 05:48:42< voris> Plus and minus will increase and decrease, respectively, the size.
20090217 05:48:59< voris> And zero will instantly toggle between your altered size and the default "normal" size.
20090217 05:49:06< QJ> 0 doesn't seem to do that 
20090217 05:49:23< QJ> it works on my machine
20090217 05:49:26< QJ> but not his ubuntu machine
20090217 05:49:43< voris> I am running ubuntu and it works on mine.
20090217 05:49:45< QJ> ohh haha now he tells me his num pad doesn't work
20090217 05:49:57< voris> I was about to ask if he was using numpad. :)
20090217 05:50:13< voris> Ok, my work is done here.
20090217 05:50:51< QJ> this zoomed out view is GREAT!
20090217 05:53:41< CTConqueror> i just got this game today, it's pretty fun
20090217 05:53:49< CTConqueror> how are the online multiplayer games?
20090217 05:54:07< QJ> pretty great!
20090217 05:54:21< CTConqueror> the game reminds me a bit of fire emblem
20090217 05:59:13-!- harryBer [n=harryBer@81.25.57.113] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"]
20090217 06:04:45< QJ> welp thanks for the timely assistance!
20090217 06:04:48-!- QJ [i=qj@eldorado.elsewhere.org] has left #wesnoth []
20090217 06:16:30-!- Flower [n=DDoS@bas1-montreal02-1096725385.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #Wesnoth
20090217 06:24:23-!- Flower [n=DDoS@bas1-montreal02-1096725385.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["leaving"]
20090217 06:27:00-!- Flower [n=DDoS@bas1-montreal02-1096725385.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #Wesnoth
20090217 06:27:20-!- Flower [n=DDoS@bas1-montreal02-1096725385.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Client Quit]
20090217 07:33:19-!- BenUrban [n=benurban@unaffiliated/benurban] has quit ["Power failu"]
20090217 07:39:06-!- BenUrban [n=benurban@c-68-49-10-243.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 07:43:05-!- [Relic] [n=[Relic]@adsl-76-229-202-137.dsl.milwwi.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving"]
20090217 08:36:59-!- vargavind [n=kess@90-231-233-50-no109.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 08:42:00-!- noy [n=Noy@d75-157-52-251.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
20090217 08:42:09-!- noy [n=Noy@d75-157-52-251.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 09:02:32-!- Unnheulu [n=ieuan@cpc1-pnth1-0-0-cust50.cdif.cable.ntl.com] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 09:06:07-!- Idanwin [n=idanwin@ip-81-11-177-64.dsl.scarlet.be] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 09:30:16-!- dfranke [i=dfranke@2001:470:1f04:53e:0:0:0:2] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 09:30:24< dfranke> anyone up for a game on the dev server?
20090217 09:48:24< Unnheulu> no
20090217 09:48:28< Unnheulu> im in mourning
20090217 09:48:29< Unnheulu> ;)
20090217 10:05:07-!- _teddy` [n=user@home.istra.ru] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 10:22:17-!- _teddy [n=user@home.istra.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090217 10:44:17-!- zookeeper [n=l@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe9ff800-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 10:49:46-!- _teddy` is now known as Teddy
20090217 10:49:53-!- Teddy is now known as _teddy
20090217 10:50:32-!- zenzei [n=zookeepe@116.71.73.40] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 10:50:57< zenzei> Hi
20090217 10:51:14< zenzei> Does David White chat in here?
20090217 10:51:35< zookeeper> no.
20090217 10:54:24 * Rhonda looks puzzled.
20090217 10:54:25< Rhonda> -!- zenzei is "zookeeper"
20090217 10:54:38< Rhonda> Are you starting a chat with yourself?
20090217 10:55:50< zookeeper> no
20090217 10:56:11< zenzei> No
20090217 10:56:17< zenzei> How do you leave a message on IRC?
20090217 10:56:28< zookeeper> my guess would be that he's ioz
20090217 10:56:50< noy> heh
20090217 10:57:11< noy> zenzei: if you think Zookeeper is bad, then you haven't even scratched the surface
20090217 10:57:29< noy> I will taunt you in your nightmares. 
20090217 10:57:39< zenzei> It's futile to try to communicate through middlemen.
20090217 10:58:01< noy> not really, did you fail to read the thread about randomness STARTED by Dave?
20090217 10:58:06< zenzei> A shame, really.
20090217 10:58:14< noy> then elaborated upon by other developers?
20090217 10:58:45< zenzei> I couldn't leave a message because it was locked for "necro."
20090217 10:59:04< noy> Do you need to?
20090217 10:59:28< zenzei> I just read David White's post, and he made some good points, re: the gameplay in Fire Emblem and others like it.
20090217 10:59:45< noy> Read the second one. 
20090217 10:59:49< zenzei> I just wanted to reply to him.
20090217 11:00:07< zookeeper> so why didn'y you reply to him in your thread?
20090217 11:00:12< zenzei> Too bad asshole moderators got in the way for no reason.
20090217 11:00:14< zookeeper> that'd have been the logical thing to do
20090217 11:01:44< zenzei> Can you leave a message here?
20090217 11:02:03< zookeeper> you can send PM's on the forums. like the one i sent you.
20090217 11:02:12< noy> zenzei: to be honest, given your one line posting I doubt your response would differentiate much from others
20090217 11:02:14< zookeeper> (PM = private message)
20090217 11:02:17< noy> others being the posting we've seen over and over before which doesn't really grasp the underlying issues
20090217 11:02:28< zenzei> My browser is not working right.
20090217 11:02:32< noy> which is precisely why the issue is basically locked
20090217 11:02:52< noy> And zenzei the person to argue over this isn't really Dave, its me. 
20090217 11:03:21< zenzei> I don't know who you are.
20090217 11:03:34-!- Unnheulu [n=ieuan@cpc1-pnth1-0-0-cust50.cdif.cable.ntl.com] has left #wesnoth ["Ex-Chat"]
20090217 11:03:38< noy> ...
20090217 11:03:45< noy> third post in that thread. 
20090217 11:04:07< noy> IF you had bothered to even read the topic or search luck posts you might have gotten an idea about that
20090217 11:04:13< zenzei> Firefox keeps crashing.
20090217 11:04:33< zenzei> It was my first time even viewing the forum, and that was the first topic I read.
20090217 11:04:36< noy> instead you immediately go to post one line responses on the topic.
20090217 11:04:47< noy> And you wonder why we lock these threads?
20090217 11:05:55< zenzei> I don't know, but I'm definitely not coming back there. I even quit the multiplayer game I was in.
20090217 11:06:40< noy> so be it
20090217 11:07:30< zenzei> I just feel sorry for the person who started this project. Maybe I'll see if I can get a hold of him on here.
20090217 11:07:38< noy> zenzei: in what way?
20090217 11:07:42< zookeeper> i hope you will.
20090217 11:07:55< zookeeper> look for Sirp or Sirp_
20090217 11:08:20< zenzei> Maybe it's just me, but his original vision seems corrupted by the people who seem to be handling the development now.
20090217 11:08:28< voris> lol
20090217 11:09:17< noy> Wow, given that he wrote the initial statement there, and supported the following statement by me, an is probably the most involved developer today... I doubt his original vision has been "corrupted"
20090217 11:09:54< noy> zenzei: again, maybe its you that doesn't understand what the project is about...
20090217 11:11:23< zenzei> Well, I've started a few one-man projects on my own. I can see where he's coming from, reading about the games that inspired him. And by corrupting I mean the people who won't listen to dissenting opinions or even let them be read.
20090217 11:12:19< zookeeper> no one cares about a one-liner "dissenting opinion" about what "ruins the game".
20090217 11:12:58< noy> There isn't dissenting opinions? The forum is a virtual battlefield of such issues
20090217 11:13:01< zookeeper> so yes, if that's corruption then i guess the project is corrupted then.
20090217 11:13:05< noy> and this is dave's view on it 
20090217 11:13:05< noy> http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=298860#p298860
20090217 11:13:20< noy> read it zenzei 
20090217 11:13:52< zenzei> I did.
20090217 11:14:00< noy> Thats HIS vision
20090217 11:14:10< noy> which we supported. 
20090217 11:14:18< zenzei> What I was talking about was single-player games.
20090217 11:14:24< zenzei> Anyway. zookeeper, to be blunt, is simply an asshole.
20090217 11:14:38< zenzei> I don't intend to argue with you guys any further.
20090217 11:14:38< noy> zenzei: he's not even close. 
20090217 11:14:51< noy> So are you now suggesting we have two different rulesets?
20090217 11:14:57< noy> just for singleplayer and for multiplayer?
20090217 11:15:00< zookeeper> lul.
20090217 11:15:13< noy> IS that even a logical course of action?
20090217 11:15:26< noy> so that people are even more confused when they get on the mp server?
20090217 11:15:31< zookeeper> (if you're not going to argue, then your statement has absolutely no weight to it)
20090217 11:16:10< zookeeper> noy, i think his point is that the game is ruined for some people who can't help but obsessively saveload
20090217 11:16:31< noy> Ah, and how is that our problem?
20090217 11:16:34< zookeeper> not that i still have any idea whether he wanted to talk about something or suggest something, which obviously he didn't actually do.
20090217 11:16:52< noy> I mean, really, is it his problem?
20090217 11:17:00< voris> Time to ad hominem attack: 24 minutes.
20090217 11:17:02< zenzei> Zookeeper, that would make all your statements have no weight either, by that logic, since you stopped me from arguing on the forum. I reiterate, you are an asshole.
20090217 11:17:04< noy> why does he care about the problems of others?
20090217 11:17:37< noy> zenzei: does the fact others save load have a detrimental impact on your enjoyment of the game?
20090217 11:17:45< zenzei> Well, noy, I was just testing a map I made, vs. computers, and I lost my leader attacking an enemy unit.
20090217 11:17:52< zenzei> (That was online.)
20090217 11:18:01< voris> You really need to work on that zenzei. If you want to be an effective troll you need to get into the ad hominem attacks much sooner.
20090217 11:18:14< zenzei> /ignore voris
20090217 11:18:19< zenzei> So I recreated the game from the last auto-save.
20090217 11:18:25< noy> ... shame. I was playing against hexcannon this morning and I lost my precious wraith. 
20090217 11:18:32< noy> due to luck.
20090217 11:18:38< noy> IT was terrible!
20090217 11:18:38< zenzei> And had better luck this time. That reminded me,
20090217 11:18:44< zookeeper> zenzei, you weren't arguing anything in the first place.
20090217 11:19:23< zenzei> how I used to not even tolerate a single loss in Fire Emblem, playing it on an emulator with save-anywhere and instant-reload capability.
20090217 11:19:30< noy> So, the fact that you weren't able to control yourself from not save loading, is our fault?
20090217 11:19:37< zenzei> The flaw remains.
20090217 11:19:41< zookeeper> i guess if you were a moderator and i posted something like "lol i like dwaaaarves i play with thunderer today" and you locked it as pointless, you'd be an asshole too.
20090217 11:19:42< noy> I don't see a flaw
20090217 11:19:55< voris> haha
20090217 11:20:05< zookeeper> since obviously i was stopped from arguing my case.
20090217 11:20:10< zenzei> Coincedentally, Fire Emblem was the game David White used to outline his rationale behild luck on the forum, citing AI issues and whatnot.
20090217 11:20:11< voris> I'm totally making that post now!
20090217 11:21:28-!- Elvish_Pillager [n=eli@66-189-14-42.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 11:21:35< zenzei> He brought up so many points, but it was like he was not even considering the case of single-player mode, where saveloading can essentially negate the entire aspect of luck.
20090217 11:21:38< noy> still
20090217 11:21:39< noy> waiting
20090217 11:21:41< noy> to 
20090217 11:21:42< noy> hear
20090217 11:21:43< noy> what 
20090217 11:21:44< noy> the 
20090217 11:21:46< noy> flaw 
20090217 11:21:47< noy> is?
20090217 11:22:06< zenzei> ...you are obviously a waste of time to talk to.
20090217 11:22:10< noy> No you are
20090217 11:22:16< noy> guess what? there is a debug command
20090217 11:22:21< zenzei> Goodbye.
20090217 11:22:24< zookeeper> bye!
20090217 11:22:27 * zookeeper waves
20090217 11:22:32< noy> you can alter the campaign
20090217 11:22:36< noy> while playing it
20090217 11:22:53< noy> Should we curtail saves? 
20090217 11:23:07< noy> what would that do for the person who needs it?
20090217 11:23:25< zenzei> I'll just leave you to get to ridiculing me among yourselves, making yourself feel better about your flawed arguments.
20090217 11:23:25< noy> What about people who do want save loading, but for entire attacks?
20090217 11:23:58< zookeeper> we'll just leave you to think among yourself that your post actually had any content to it.
20090217 11:24:02< noy> Guess what zenzei, some people like save loading... should we impinge on their options?
20090217 11:25:18< zookeeper> we lock meaningless posts which only add noise to the forums and no content, and yours was one. nothing more to it than that.
20090217 11:25:21< zenzei> Sigh. Okay, but does the very fact that you can avoid the effects of luck make it kind of useless as an aspect of gameplay?
20090217 11:25:22< noy> zenzei: others swear not to do it at all... and will reload the campaign entirely if they lose. 
20090217 11:25:37< noy> No, we give options to different people. 
20090217 11:25:45< zenzei> Pretend you took Game Design 101.
20090217 11:25:53< dfranke> noy: the are people who restart the *campaign*?
20090217 11:26:13< zookeeper> zenzei, no, because saveloading isn't a gameplay aspect really.
20090217 11:26:22< dfranke> noy: I'm a nethack player and even I think that's extreme.
20090217 11:26:25< zenzei> I mean, luck.
20090217 11:26:35< zookeeper> everyone knows that they aren't playing "by the rules" when they saveload to get better luck.
20090217 11:26:52< noy> zenzei: actually I do something more critical, wargaming. 
20090217 11:26:54< zookeeper> dfranke, well, some do. not very many, i'm sure :)
20090217 11:27:20< noy> so really, I find yoru claim that I don't understand game design in a strategic game kinda laughable
20090217 11:27:44< noy> dfranke: I know a few... 
20090217 11:28:13< zookeeper> if someone wants to saveload, then they know it's effectively cheating. it's not a fault in the gameplay of an FPS if you can enter a cheat to enable you to walk through walls, since doing that is not part of the actual intended gameplay and everyone knows it.
20090217 11:28:37< noy> I understand what element randomness plays... I've seen countless different implementations of it. 
20090217 11:28:55< zookeeper> it doesn't make the aspect of having walls in the game useless, even though you can circumvent that limitation via that cheat.
20090217 11:29:06< noy> exactly Zoo
20090217 11:29:34< zenzei> Well, how about resuming multiplayer games from an autosave, where the host could replay a turn and overwrite a save, counting on the other players to not notice when it's continued some other day?
20090217 11:30:23< noy> ... so what are we supposed to do about that?
20090217 11:30:28-!- Miccoh [i=Miccoh@cs181116002.pp.htv.fi] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 11:30:36< noy> and what does that have to do with the previous argument?
20090217 11:31:10< noy> I mean he could make such a change in a save game with no luck under the same premise you're making here zenzei 
20090217 11:33:15< dfranke> zenzei: further recommended reading: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=21460
20090217 11:33:53< noy> Moreover the general nature of the mp server is a positive gaming environment where cheating is discouraged because there isn't much of a point toit
20090217 11:33:57< zenzei> With no luck, his enemies would not count on him missing on a random chance, and may play, in a way, better.
20090217 11:33:58< voris> I love that one. :)
20090217 11:34:35< zenzei> That's amusing, counting on "general nature" when designing games and servers.
20090217 11:34:48< dfranke> voris: I actually hadn't noticed it before; came across it just now because I saw drama on IRC and went looking for the backstory :-)
20090217 11:34:54< noy> Actually we did
20090217 11:35:05< noy> notice there is no official ranking system
20090217 11:35:11< noy> no stats on the server?
20090217 11:35:32< noy> Its got a code of conduct and a moderation system
20090217 11:35:56< noy> So its pretty clear we've been moderately successful in implementing such a policy
20090217 11:36:06< zenzei> Why don't you abolish the regime of moderators and instead count on the "general nature" of friendly discussion forums as a hedge against abuse?
20090217 11:36:14< voris> If people cheat, there's an ignore feature so you can remind yourself not to play with them anymore if it really ruined the experience for you.
20090217 11:36:24< noy> exactly voris 
20090217 11:36:25-!- Lirion [n=cynric@wikimedia-commons/Lirion] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 11:36:31< zookeeper> zenzei, that's exactly what we do.
20090217 11:36:47< zookeeper> we kick and ban idiots from the MP server, and we lock noise threads on the forums.
20090217 11:37:13< noy> zenzei: I suggest you read my words carefully. Moderation is a key part of that
20090217 11:37:27< zenzei> Please don't drag others down to your level by presumptiously using "we," zookeeper.
20090217 11:37:39< zenzei> Anyway, I digress.
20090217 11:37:55< noy> zenzei: you have no clue what you're talking about
20090217 11:38:13< zenzei> You look like you just like to argue for the sake of it, noy.
20090217 11:38:25< zenzei> Someone here sure failed socratic irony, I see.
20090217 11:38:36< noy> zenzei: looks like you like to talk about things you don't know about
20090217 11:38:48< noy> Someone here sure failed wesnoth design 101
20090217 11:38:55< noy> I see
20090217 11:38:59< zenzei> Thanks for parroting my words.
20090217 11:39:00< zookeeper> oh my.
20090217 11:39:15< noy> zenzei: no problem, I was just practicing my irony skills. 
20090217 11:39:55< noy> Next up, my pompous ass skills, like you've just tried to display by identifying advanced philosophical concepts. 
20090217 11:39:57< zenzei> I'm saying luck should be downplayed because it's of no strategic value.
20090217 11:40:04< zookeeper> zenzei, you don't happen to think that i'm the only one who bluntly locks noise threads, do you?
20090217 11:40:35< noy> zenzei: only a person who doesn't understand strategy could make such a comment. 
20090217 11:40:36< zenzei> People, including me, too often risk key units like leaders out for revenge, on a bet.
20090217 11:40:47< noy> Uncertainty is the absolute basis of Strategy.
20090217 11:41:31< zookeeper> people often jump down cliffs in FPS games, just because they press the wrong button.
20090217 11:41:32< noy> Uncertainty of your opponent's intentions, Uncertainty of your soldier's skills, and uncertainty of the battle. 
20090217 11:41:58< noy> zenzei: then your strategy quite frankly is incorrect
20090217 11:42:13< zenzei> Others take down Gryphon Riders with Goblin Spearmen, but I don't know what more to say to you after you've just called day night, noy.
20090217 11:42:13< noy> may I suggest you don't risk your leader as much in the future?
20090217 11:42:38< voris> OMG that's brilliant. I don't know why the Army hasn't thought of that. Luck has no strategic value so just get rid of it.
20090217 11:42:46< noy> zenzei: yeah, and Iraqis take down M-1 tanks with RPGs
20090217 11:42:46 * voris has seen the light
20090217 11:43:15< noy> or Apache helicopters with 303 rifles 
20090217 11:43:33< zenzei> Try getting a little more political to exhibit your real-world street-smart. 
20090217 11:43:44< zenzei> Strategy exists solely to decrease losses from uncertainity.
20090217 11:43:59< noy> Uh, exactly
20090217 11:44:01< voris> But uncertainty remains.
20090217 11:44:08< voris> Can't change that.
20090217 11:44:10 * zookeeper wants to see a statement from the US defense department whining about unfair luck
20090217 11:44:18< voris> No doubt.
20090217 11:44:34< noy> So you would suggest I remove uncertainty... where does that leave strategy zenzei ?
20090217 11:45:13< zenzei> Have you played any mainstream RTS, noy? say, something from as long as 10 years, like something like Starcraft?
20090217 11:45:25< noy> zenzei: what does that have to do with anything?
20090217 11:45:40< voris> Would you like to play a game of chess?
20090217 11:46:02< zenzei> By now I understand for you everything needs to be spelled out, but answer me, have you played SC?
20090217 11:46:07< noy> Would you like to train Officers on an RTS or Avalon Hill's Stalingrad?
20090217 11:46:19< noy> Uh, probably more than you have
20090217 11:46:43< zenzei> I'm sure. How about a 1v1 right now? Your choice of map and race.
20090217 11:46:52< zenzei> but nevermind that, shall we.
20090217 11:47:20< noy> ... you brought it up...
20090217 11:47:23< zenzei> I'm sure you know what happens when a marine shoots a hydralisk under a tree?
20090217 11:47:31< zenzei> both unupgraded.
20090217 11:47:45< noy> What does this have to do with anything?
20090217 11:47:56< zenzei> Answer the question please.
20090217 11:48:05< zenzei> I'll get to the point.
20090217 11:48:12< noy> No I really don't. 
20090217 11:48:48< noy> Partly because I couldn't really care less about it when I played. 
20090217 11:48:51< zenzei> Then don't be a jackass and assert your assumed superiority over others right off the bat next time, please.
20090217 11:49:04< noy> I'm still pretty sure I played it more than you
20090217 11:49:26-!- ilor [n=user@213-238-122-211.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 11:49:42< zenzei> Exactly. There's a 30% chance of the marine missing.
20090217 11:49:53< voris> [02:14] <zenzei> I don't intend to argue with you guys any further.
20090217 11:49:53< voris> [02:47] <zenzei> ...[continues arguing]
20090217 11:50:00< voris> Just sayin'. ;)
20090217 11:50:15< zenzei> BUT you "couldn't really care less about it when you played" BECAUSE it's not that apparent as a 30% chance to hit or miss is in Wesnoth.
20090217 11:50:16< noy> ... Great. Do you know whats the effective CEP of a JDAM?
20090217 11:50:17-!- krt [n=krt@dslb-088-066-042-037.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 11:51:01< zenzei> Try not parroting the one you're arguing with, it makes you seem like you're only having words put into your mouth.
20090217 11:51:08< zenzei> Anyway.
20090217 11:51:14< noy> zenzei: you haven't even made a point yet
20090217 11:51:26< dfranke> voris: he's not arguing deliberately.  These are just uncontrollable finger spasms while he has hands on his keyboard.
20090217 11:51:27< noy> Nor do I see you getting to one
20090217 11:51:33< voris> heh
20090217 11:51:49< zenzei> Thanks for being a relay for voris, dranke. I'm sure it pays well.
20090217 11:52:02< noy> You're just trying to show you know oh so much about game design, which is getting tiring. 
20090217 11:52:09< zenzei> Noy, I mean no professional game puts as much emphasis on luck as Wesnoth does, simply because that pisses players off.
20090217 11:52:36< zookeeper> professional games need to cater for stupid people, maybe that's why.
20090217 11:52:38< noy> zenzei: is wesnoth an RTS?
20090217 11:52:40 * voris notes it's a free world and zenzei is welcome to go play some of those
20090217 11:52:57< zenzei> Actively trying to lose players is bad game design no matter where you took classes.
20090217 11:53:13< noy> zenzei: because you basically don't understand the game design
20090217 11:54:21< zenzei> Okay, consider this, I'm throwing a suggestion off the top of my head; what if in Wesnoth a unit got hit at least once, if it had already been attacked that turn? 
20090217 11:54:23< zookeeper> losing players obviously isn't intentional, just a side product of the kind of gameplay that's been chosen.
20090217 11:54:33< zookeeper> jesus christ.
20090217 11:54:51< noy> zenzei: I guess by your view, poker is a shitty game design becuase it puts too much emphasis on luck?
20090217 11:54:57< noy> What about games that use dice?
20090217 11:55:15< noy> I guess Settlers of Cataan is a terrible game because it uses too much luck too
20090217 11:55:21< zookeeper> i can't stand this anymore, i'll be afk for a while.
20090217 11:55:27< zenzei> Use some less asnine thought-terminating cliches, will you, comparing apples to oranges.
20090217 11:55:29< zookeeper> have fun, everyone.
20090217 11:55:43< zenzei> You weren't meant to be argued with anyway, zookeeper.
20090217 11:55:45< noy> zenzei: Like comparing an RTS to a Turn Based strategy?
20090217 11:55:53< noy> oh wait
20090217 11:55:54< noy> you did that
20090217 11:56:13< zenzei> I didn't compare RTS to TBS. I said professional/mainstream/mass-market games.
20090217 11:56:27< noy> So, settlers of Cataan
20090217 11:56:46< zenzei> Okay, let's indulge your supposed expertise in TBS; ever played or known a game called Heroes of Might and Magic?
20090217 11:56:53< noy> Professional, mainstream mass market game
20090217 11:57:07< noy> Nah I like Settlers better
20090217 11:57:25< noy> HOMM isn't Wesnoth
20090217 11:57:34< noy> so you're comparing apples to oranges
20090217 11:57:38< zenzei> Neither is Settlers a computer game played over the internet.
20090217 11:57:47< noy> Actually, it is
20090217 11:57:50< zenzei> More points for parroting me again.
20090217 11:58:02< noy> I played it just tonight 
20090217 11:58:05< voris> I play Settlers on my computer over the internet a lot.
20090217 11:58:09< voris> Me too!
20090217 11:58:42< noy> Why don't we Compare Wesnoth to Panzer General?
20090217 11:58:50< zenzei> Sorry, then I wasn't aware of it.
20090217 11:59:17< noy> Or V4Victory series?
20090217 12:00:01< noy> or Steel Panthers?
20090217 12:00:21< zenzei> or, which may be the most apparent to players of both as the game Wesnoth might have been modeled upon, Warlords?
20090217 12:00:39< noy> Which emerged from games like Nobunaga's ambition
20090217 12:01:18< noy> which also used randomness
20090217 12:01:41< zenzei> I haven't played those a lot, but I sure don't recall luck being as much of a game-decider in any of those.
20090217 12:02:03< noy> Uhhh, oh it was
20090217 12:02:13< noy> and in many of these games it is. 
20090217 12:02:17< Ivanovic> moin
20090217 12:02:40 * dfranke hands Ivanovic some popcorn
20090217 12:02:48< zenzei> well, not in any of the games often listed as the inspirations for Wesnoth.
20090217 12:03:06< noy> They basically came out as a subgenre of strategy games
20090217 12:03:31< zenzei> Care to 1v1 in 1.5.10?
20090217 12:03:44< noy> but their inspiration certainly derived from the much older genre of wargaming
20090217 12:03:50< noy> not really. I don't 1v1
20090217 12:04:24< noy> Also, luck really doesn't determine the outcome of games as much as one thinks. 
20090217 12:04:38< zenzei> Why not, because your weaknesses at actually gameplay might undermine your theories about it? What do you play then, 2v2, FFA?
20090217 12:04:40< noy> ITs the ability to manage probabilities that is the basis of skill
20090217 12:04:52< noy> 2v2 mostly
20090217 12:04:54< noy> and above
20090217 12:05:05< dfranke> zenzei: pffft.  You realize Noy is probably one of the three best players there are at this game?
20090217 12:05:06< zenzei> How about 1+1c?
20090217 12:05:33< noy> dfranke: meh, I'm sure its more than three. 
20090217 12:05:49< zenzei> We'll see that if he often wins a 1v1, dranke. Maybe you'll be the roadie for me if he lost?
20090217 12:05:50< noy> Why would I play with a comp?
20090217 12:06:14< noy> I don't play 1v1s because I don't find the dynamics enjoyable. 
20090217 12:06:33< zenzei> So when it comes down to walking the walk, you'd rather slither out of it.
20090217 12:06:42< dfranke> zenzei: I'll take Noy's side in a 2v2 if everyone else wants to do that.
20090217 12:06:59< noy> given its 3am... probably not
20090217 12:07:17< voris> Man, it took nearly an hour for you to come up with the "I'll totally battle you just to show you how stupid your game is" argument. You're a serious slacker.
20090217 12:07:44< zenzei> He probably knows his theories are too flawed without backing from another player to make up for them.
20090217 12:07:45< dfranke> noy: it's not like it'll be a long game.
20090217 12:07:53< voris> *snort*
20090217 12:07:53< noy> ... find a partner
20090217 12:07:57< noy> you have an hour of my time
20090217 12:08:29< noy> we'll play on stable
20090217 12:08:39< dfranke> I only have dev installed atm.
20090217 12:08:53< zenzei> I'll take a computer on my side, and a map of my making. I don't have or prefer stable, since I argue about the state of things in the beta.
20090217 12:08:59< noy> Fuck that
20090217 12:09:07< noy> you'll play a default map thank you very much
20090217 12:09:14< noy> they are balanced for a reason
20090217 12:09:34< noy> fucking a
20090217 12:09:54 * dfranke apt-gets stable in case it comes to that
20090217 12:09:58< zenzei> Alright.
20090217 12:10:12< zenzei> Make it the beta version at least, please.
20090217 12:10:40< dfranke> okay.  We all down with 2v2 on beta?
20090217 12:11:01< noy> I've got 1.5.9
20090217 12:11:17< dfranke> 1.5.10 here.  They're compatible, right?
20090217 12:11:19< noy> I haven't bothered upgrading
20090217 12:11:23< noy> I'm wondering
20090217 12:11:29< dfranke> I'm pretty sure they are.
20090217 12:11:39< dfranke> I played a friend who was running 1.5.9 with no problems.
20090217 12:11:45< noy> Ivanovic: is .9 and .10 compatible?
20090217 12:12:03< zenzei> Listen. 3-player FFA.
20090217 12:12:08< noy> No
20090217 12:12:11< zenzei> Let's get this done with.
20090217 12:12:45< noy> dfranke: are you in the server now?
20090217 12:12:46< zenzei> I can't trust on dfranke not to do the equivalent of an SCV rush and mess me up in the 2nd turn.
20090217 12:12:47< Ivanovic> in theeory it *could* be
20090217 12:12:58< dfranke> logging on now
20090217 12:13:00< Ivanovic> but on the server both are not allowed at the same time, just to be sure
20090217 12:13:13< noy> meh
20090217 12:13:28< noy> I need to go to sleep
20090217 12:13:41< noy> if you want to play me another time, go ahead
20090217 12:13:52< zenzei> Okay, tomorrow then. 1v1 if possible.
20090217 12:14:00< noy> I don't play 1v1s. 
20090217 12:14:10< zenzei> You would lose them if you did.
20090217 12:14:15< zenzei> I guarantee that.
20090217 12:14:25< noy> uhhuh
20090217 12:14:48< noy> How about I just get you to play wintermute instead?
20090217 12:14:50< dfranke> zenzei: would I good enough if I whooped you, and testifed that Noy will beat me maybe 75-80% of the time?
20090217 12:14:56< zenzei> How about dfranke. Would you liek a 1v1?
20090217 12:15:03< zenzei> ^ like
20090217 12:15:05< zenzei> Okay.
20090217 12:15:19< noy> and let him wipe the floor with you?
20090217 12:15:32< dfranke> I'm in the game lobby.
20090217 12:15:45< noy> dfranke: was your name on there the same?
20090217 12:16:12< dfranke> noy: yes, I'm dfranke on the server.
20090217 12:16:15< noy> ah
20090217 12:16:44< noy> zenzei: also there are more players on the stable server
20090217 12:16:55< noy> if you really wanted to show your skills, you're play there
20090217 12:17:57< dfranke> btw, WTF is an SCV rush, and what would be the Wesnoth equivalent?
20090217 12:17:59< noy> The Balance in branch is somewhat better in some areas, but you wouldn't see the same level of quality opponents
20090217 12:18:20< noy> dfranke: its a starcraft term... there isn't really a wesnoth equivalent
20090217 12:18:57< noy> going all gryphons perhaps?
20090217 12:19:06< zenzei> noy, I can't stand using the older versions of any software, be it app, OS, or game, when there's a beta out.
20090217 12:19:29< dfranke> I've heard of Zerg rushes, though I've never played SC.
20090217 12:19:31< noy> zenzei: the balance is untested in branch
20090217 12:19:34< dfranke> I guess that'd be like WC spam?
20090217 12:19:39< noy> kinda
20090217 12:19:58< noy> zenzei: so really, its not clear whether its better. 
20090217 12:20:19< noy> We haven't had enough people on to test it, its basically our best guess. 
20090217 12:20:47< zenzei> noy, and the SCV rush would be making fast or tough (trolls, woses) units and rushing with the leader in a small map.
20090217 12:21:00< noy> not really
20090217 12:21:02< zenzei> Just to improve your teammates chances.
20090217 12:21:30< noy> a basic drake or UD recruit would tear that to shreds in seconds
20090217 12:21:52< noy> the closest example would be gryphs because they are fast and tough
20090217 12:22:17< noy> Still, thats considered a noob strat
20090217 12:22:19-!- Turuk_ [n=Turuk@FUSE-WS1-208-102-202-188.fuse.net] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 12:22:25< voris> I'm trying to decide what a challenge game would really prove. If zenzei wins does that prove that luck isn't an overwhelming factor?
20090217 12:22:39< voris> If he loses can we be sure he tried hard enough?
20090217 12:22:42< noy> heh
20090217 12:29:40-!- Turuk [n=Turuk@FUSE-WS1-208-102-202-188.fuse.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090217 12:30:59-!- sportschuh [n=Marcokit@p5B3ACBE9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 12:34:00-!- sportschuh [n=Marcokit@p5B3ACBE9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit]
20090217 12:35:39-!- Miccoh [i=Miccoh@cs181116002.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090217 12:37:51-!- isaac [n=isaac@39.Red-88-27-69.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
20090217 12:38:28-!- isaac [n=isaac@debian/developer/isaac] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 12:46:52-!- noy [n=Noy@d75-157-52-251.bchsia.telus.net] has quit []
20090217 12:57:17-!- Lirion [n=cynric@wikimedia-commons/Lirion] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090217 13:08:43< dfranke> okay, 1-0 me, good game, good night.
20090217 13:10:04< zookeeper> yay.
20090217 13:14:39< voris> heh
20090217 13:14:52< voris> Good night.
20090217 13:15:11< zenzei> GG. Went on for a while vs. the AI after you left.
20090217 13:15:44< zenzei> Is this you, zookeeper? http://www.facebook.com/people/Lari-Nieminen/697552458
20090217 13:19:10-!- Ken_Oh [n=briang@65.199.33.17] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 13:21:04< zookeeper> zenzei, i think not.
20090217 13:23:43-!- Lirion [n=cynric@wikimedia-commons/Lirion] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 13:23:59< Soliton> "Luck - Randomness ruins single-player mode ..in any game, when obsessive players can just reload until they get their preferred outcomes." is all i found on the forum. that's not seriously the point that started this argument..?
20090217 13:25:01< zookeeper> it is.
20090217 13:25:05< voris> The very one.
20090217 13:25:28< Soliton> oh.
20090217 13:25:49< voris> And just 5 posts down from the sticky "Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale" post too.
20090217 13:26:15< voris> (and three down from the DIY form he could have used)
20090217 13:26:50< Soliton> good point. wonder whether such an option exists in the template.
20090217 13:28:29< Soliton> i wonder why it's not saving that ruins single player, btw.
20090217 13:28:53< Soliton> because that argument actually has come up before.
20090217 13:29:00-!- zenzei2 [n=zookeepe@116.71.84.43] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 13:29:25< voris> Sure. And some games have gone to ridiculous lengths to try to minimize saving's abuse potential.
20090217 13:29:36< voris> Sometimes to the point of making the game really freaking annoying. :)
20090217 13:30:04< Soliton> i think i'll add that point to the DIY thread anyway.
20090217 13:33:40-!- zenzei [n=zookeepe@116.71.73.40] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
20090217 13:34:32-!- zenzei [n=zookeepe@116.71.81.11] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 13:35:00< Soliton> zenzei: hey, i added an option for you here: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=299861#p299861  now you can post your opinion there and i'm sure it won't get locked right away!
20090217 13:35:10< zenzei> Darkchat keeps crashing. Did my last message get through?
20090217 13:35:29< Soliton> check the log.
20090217 13:36:04< zenzei> Cool. Real-time logging.
20090217 13:36:19< zenzei> <zenzei2> Has it already been suggested to make Lawful units hit at least once in daytime, and miss at least once during night, and vice-versa for Chaotic units?
20090217 13:36:39< Soliton> surprisingly not!
20090217 13:37:16< Soliton> would they hit their nearest unit regardless of teams if they don't get a chance?
20090217 13:40:53< zenzei> I mean, say, a Lawful unit's first attack or counterattack during the 2 turns of daytime, would always hit.
20090217 13:41:17< zenzei> The idea could use refinement. I'm just throwing it out.
20090217 13:42:00< Soliton> "could" you say, huh.
20090217 13:42:10< Soliton> that's quite insightful.
20090217 13:44:02< zenzei> Ignoring the scathing sarcasm, or an already attacked unit always getting hit at least once by subsequent attackers.
20090217 13:44:47-!- BenUrban [n=benurban@unaffiliated/benurban] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
20090217 13:45:07-!- BenUrban [n=benurban@c-68-49-10-243.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 13:45:54< voris> I still don't understand the rationale that motivates that second idea.
20090217 13:46:08< voris> (previously attacked units always getting hitA)
20090217 13:47:37< Soliton> i think it's just a desperate try to insert determinism into the chaos. if there was an actual rationale i'm sure he would have mentioned it.
20090217 13:47:55-!- zenzei_ [n=zookeepe@116.71.77.191] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 13:48:48< zenzei_> re: voris, Too often players, like my recent opponent dfranke just now, often throw all their nearby units in "revenge" upon a lucky enemy that somehow manages to survive.
20090217 13:49:36-!- zenzei2 [n=zookeepe@116.71.84.43] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090217 13:52:37< zenzei_> Including their leaders. Assuming some "Fatigue" or "Weariness" attribute, except when in Villages, would ensure that such haphazzard all-on-one attacks don't entirely go to waste.
20090217 13:53:52< zenzei_> Hell, a lucky unit with "Drain" can mess up quite a few melee attackers.
20090217 13:54:40< voris> Am I reading you correctly that you are hoping to strengthen the success potential of a strategy you are disdainful of in the first place?
20090217 13:55:18< zenzei_> Yes! The lesser evil, if you will.
20090217 13:55:27< voris> I see.
20090217 13:55:46< Soliton> only one really. surely you're not suggesting that someone deliberately attacks a strong draining unit in melee.
20090217 13:55:57< zenzei_> And I meant, a unit always getting hit at least IN THE TURN they were already attacked, except when in villages.
20090217 13:56:06< voris> Have you ever read about the Battle of Antietam?
20090217 13:56:27< voris> Just riffing on your "beaten down" theory.
20090217 13:57:38< zenzei_> Wouldn't that battle count as having been fought "in a village" by Wesnoth standards?
20090217 13:58:31< voris> The point is Lee was outnumbered and should have been beaten right then and there. But Mistress Random smiled upon him and granted him McClellan for an opponent.
20090217 13:59:21< zenzei_> And actually, Soliton, I've had more than a few opponents escape from my games after missing 2 or more attacks on a unit that was annoying them.
20090217 13:59:24< voris> So the "unit that has already been attacked" did not get a hit because McClellan mismanaged and was overly cautious.
20090217 13:59:53< Soliton> zenzei_: which means?
20090217 14:00:51< zenzei_> Constant misses are annoying. The game should "get the hint" that someone is willing to use up several of their units' turn to kill an enemy, and grant them that trade-off.
20090217 14:01:11< voris> Why?
20090217 14:01:31< voris> Hit rates suck in war.
20090217 14:01:32< Soliton> so they get their money's worth of satisfaction!
20090217 14:01:44< zenzei_> Or their time's worth.
20090217 14:01:52< Soliton> time is money!
20090217 14:01:57< voris> Especially if we're talking pre-rifiling for god's sake.
20090217 14:02:12< voris> rifling
20090217 14:02:13< zenzei_> And voris, let's grant Lee the advantage of fighting in home territory, i.e. a village. Similarly, my suggestion wouldn't apply on garrisoned units in Wesnoth.
20090217 14:03:53-!- zenzei [n=zookeepe@116.71.81.11] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090217 14:05:20< zookeeper> hey i have an idea how about you could builds buildings in wesnoth
20090217 14:05:41< Soliton> and upgrade them?
20090217 14:05:41< zookeeper> and more units than 3 levels!
20090217 14:05:43< zookeeper> yes
20090217 14:05:55< Soliton> sweet!
20090217 14:05:59< zenzei_> Make one of those buildings represent an online forum, where you can contruct units called Ass.
20090217 14:06:14< Soliton> contract?
20090217 14:06:17< zenzei_> Who may go around destroying other Forums, and level up to Holes.
20090217 14:06:45< zookeeper> hey that's a good idea
20090217 14:06:51< zookeeper> unfortunately we don't have your picture to go with it
20090217 14:06:57< Soliton> wouldn't they have to register for those forums first and gain trust?
20090217 14:07:31< zenzei_> Level 3 would fork into either Moderator or Nieminen.
20090217 14:07:51< voris> Eh, Antietam is a bad example in retrospect. McClellan just didn't press his advantage so it doesn't count. Probably a better example would be Pickett's Charge. Attack, attack, attack, lose anyway.
20090217 14:08:04< voris> Shit happens.
20090217 14:08:31< zenzei_> I thought one of the things that Wesnoth "was not" in the official FAQ, was Realistic?
20090217 14:08:48< zookeeper> zenzei_, what, there's an official FAQ?
20090217 14:08:58< Soliton> wait you read the faq?!
20090217 14:09:02< zookeeper> woot.
20090217 14:09:17< Soliton> a likely story.
20090217 14:10:03< Soliton> you'll just tell us you read it before posting, too.
20090217 14:10:04< zenzei_> A list of ideas that have been shot down and were not to be repeated, in any case. As deemed by the Geek Elite.
20090217 14:10:39< zenzei_> I wasn't going to post about luck before reading David White's comparisson with Fire Emblem, either.
20090217 14:11:26< Soliton> Geek Elite is what you call project members?
20090217 14:12:06< voris> Clearly he skipped over # 1.2.5 There's too much luck in this game!
20090217 14:12:12-!- Elvish_Pillager [n=eli@66-189-14-42.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090217 14:12:13< zenzei_> Sorry, no, but those who lock down someone new for bringing up controversial topics.
20090217 14:12:47< Soliton> so who are they?
20090217 14:12:48< zookeeper> i think you're misunderstanding. i'd lock a stupid thread even if it wouldn't be by someone new and didn't contain anything controversial.
20090217 14:12:54-!- Elvish_Pillager [n=eli@66-189-14-42.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 14:13:09< zenzei_> Okay, sorry. Let's drop that already.
20090217 14:13:19< zenzei_> Anyway, an alternate to my previous idea here, how about instead just making a unit lose 2%-5% defense on each hit, except if in a Village?
20090217 14:13:22< Soliton> alright.
20090217 14:13:37< zenzei_> ^ each attack by a unique enemy during the same turn I mean.
20090217 14:13:43< Soliton> complications, complications.
20090217 14:14:00< zookeeper> yeah, let's just talk about how people are assholes because they lock your thread, regardless of whether your thread was pointless enough to actually perfectly justify the locking. since otherwise those people couldn't be called assholes anymore...oh, wait
20090217 14:14:54< zenzei_> No, see; an Orcish Assasin has 70% defense on Flat. You attack it, and regardless of how many "sub-attacks" your unit had or whether he hit or miss, the Assasin's defense would drop to 65% for that turn.
20090217 14:14:57< voris> As long as we're on tangents now, I find your "real name" annoying, zenzei_.
20090217 14:15:23< Soliton> an orcish assassin has 60% on flat.
20090217 14:15:25< zenzei_> That should confirm to the KISS principle, I hope.
20090217 14:15:42< Soliton> i don't see that.
20090217 14:15:47< zenzei_> Let's assume 70% for this discussion.
20090217 14:16:05< zookeeper> Soliton, of course it's KISS that a unit doesn't have the defense its defense rating indicates! stop being silly.
20090217 14:16:12< zenzei_> And voris this screen name was already set up in the app I got.
20090217 14:16:16< Soliton> sorry. :-/
20090217 14:16:33-!- Lirion [n=cynric@wikimedia-commons/Lirion] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090217 14:16:37< zenzei_> I mean simple enough to put in the rules.
20090217 14:16:54< zookeeper> i bet everyone believes your app was pre-configured to have "zookeeper" as your real name.
20090217 14:16:55< voris> Using "zookeeper" was already coincidentally what you use as your "full name"?
20090217 14:17:06< voris> I find that hard to believe but ok.
20090217 14:18:24< zenzei_> Actually, I put "ATTN: zookeeper, why lock my post?" in the identify field.
20090217 14:18:36< zenzei_> This is my first time on IRC.
20090217 14:18:48< VurtualRuler98> you're kinda doing it wrong
20090217 14:18:52< Soliton> a likely story.
20090217 14:18:54< VurtualRuler98> but that's beside the point.
20090217 14:20:21< zenzei_> As I was saying, should be simple for a rule; "Only terrain counts for calculating a unit's defense, but each combat decreases its defense by 5% for that turn, unless the unit is in a Village."
20090217 14:20:21-!- Chronona1t is now known as Chrononaut
20090217 14:20:22< zookeeper> Soliton, very!
20090217 14:21:51-!- Turuk_ [n=Turuk@FUSE-WS1-208-102-202-188.fuse.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
20090217 14:21:54< Soliton> since there is really no need for a rule like that it's just a needless complication.
20090217 14:22:06-!- Turuk [n=Turuk@FUSE-WS1-208-102-202-188.fuse.net] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 14:22:19< VurtualRuler98> It'd make defense much harder.
20090217 14:22:52< zenzei_> Throwing 5 units on an enemy should count for something in the mechanics!
20090217 14:23:06< zookeeper> it does, you're much more likely to hit it than with 1 unit.
20090217 14:23:08< VurtualRuler98> zenzei_: flanking y'know
20090217 14:23:10< VurtualRuler98> holds them there
20090217 14:23:12< zookeeper> duh.
20090217 14:23:26< VurtualRuler98> and makes you do alot more damage due ot be attacking 5 times as much.
20090217 14:23:55< zenzei_> You're ignoring my earlier point up there.
20090217 14:24:15< voris> Man, zenzei_ must love it when spearmen win against tanks in Civilization. :)
20090217 14:24:17< zookeeper> you're ignoring everyone's point right down here.
20090217 14:24:24< zenzei_> Just now, one of you, dfranke, played me.
20090217 14:24:28< zookeeper> (oh, and up there too actually)
20090217 14:24:48< zenzei_> Being a wiseass isn't working out for you, zookeeper, really.
20090217 14:25:08< zenzei_> Anyway, dfranke threw 3 Orcish Slayers and a Troll on my Cavalryman and failed to kill it.
20090217 14:25:12< VurtualRuler98> You're outnumbered by superior foes.
20090217 14:25:23< Soliton> how's that a point?
20090217 14:25:42< VurtualRuler98> zenzei_: what if you made a hundred random walking corpses attack a really tough unit?
20090217 14:25:46< voris> I knew it. zenzei_ won his point whether he won or lost the challenge game.
20090217 14:25:49< VurtualRuler98> they'd be incredibly and unexpectedly weak.
20090217 14:25:55< voris> (in his mind)
20090217 14:26:07< voris> So playing it was pointless.
20090217 14:26:12< voris> Much like this conversation.,
20090217 14:26:44< zenzei_> Good luck keeping new players in the game with that elitist attitude of the Geek Clique, VurtualRuler98.
20090217 14:26:45< Soliton> i bet he learned some strategy/tactics.
20090217 14:26:53< zookeeper> Soliton, you sure?
20090217 14:27:03< Soliton> well, somewhat.
20090217 14:27:08< zookeeper> O.o
20090217 14:27:26< VurtualRuler98> zenzei_: I actually suck at wesnoth.
20090217 14:27:35< VurtualRuler98> and I'm not elitist, everyone's just inferior >_> <_< >_>
20090217 14:28:22< Soliton> zenzei_: figuring out who's in the Geek Clique is not working out for you, really.
20090217 14:28:53< VurtualRuler98> I think zombies are here.
20090217 14:29:39< Soliton> zenzei_: also contrary to what you seem to believe not many new players come here and tell us to change core game mechanics.
20090217 14:30:56< voris> No, they just quietly are lost. zenzei_ is just doing us all a service by helping us see the light. It's noble really.
20090217 14:31:26< voris> It would be so much easier to play Heroes and be done with it but he just really *cares* about us.
20090217 14:31:40 * Soliton wipes a tear.
20090217 14:32:14< ilor> uh, doesn't HoMM have actual game-breaking randomness in combat?
20090217 14:32:28< voris> It's downplayed quite a bit.
20090217 14:32:45< ilor> morale and luck bonuses aren't
20090217 14:32:59< voris> That statement may or may not be accurate depending on which version you're talking about I guess. :)
20090217 14:33:09< ilor> 3, of course ;)
20090217 14:33:12< voris> I seem to remember it changing drastically at some point. :)
20090217 14:33:13-!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 14:33:18< voris> heh
20090217 14:35:10-!- zenzei2 [n=zookeepe@116.71.74.38] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 14:35:30< zenzei2> re: Soliton, my point is that when someone redirects many of their units from their original purpose (which in dfranke's case was to occupy my villages) to kill an enemy unit that's annoying them, something is wrong with the game when they all combined fail to kill it.
20090217 14:36:06< Soliton> yep, you're too easily annoyed.
20090217 14:36:26< ilor> zenzei2: so, simply put, Wesnoth should allow you to kill a unit if you really want to?
20090217 14:36:48< Soliton> maybe we should let dfranke say whether he was annoyed or whatever he felt in that situation if it's that relevant.
20090217 14:37:12< zookeeper> i have a better alternative
20090217 14:37:23< Soliton> ilor: wesnoth should make you win if you really really want to!
20090217 14:37:25< zenzei2> If I'm willing to use up most of my units' turn to, ilor, then yeah.
20090217 14:37:30< zookeeper> the game detects when you've missed too often, and calls your mommy for you for consolidation
20090217 14:37:42< voris> I have seen games where each time a unit survives they improve, not weaken. Eventually attaining "veteran" status and such. That seems more plausibly defended than your idea.
20090217 14:37:50< zenzei2> The very fact that you all are ganging up to cover for your individually weak arguments proves your inferiority.
20090217 14:37:57< zookeeper> oops, consolidate is the wrong word
20090217 14:37:57< Soliton> zookeeper: we need a confirmation box before making the actual call though!
20090217 14:38:06< zenzei2> Come now, surely the developers behind this great game aren't so childish.
20090217 14:38:13< zookeeper> s/consolidation/comfort
20090217 14:38:16< voris> Wait, it's great?
20090217 14:38:27< Soliton> well, one can adjust to the level of the discussion...
20090217 14:38:31< voris> heh
20090217 14:38:36< Soliton> it's really quite easy.
20090217 14:39:02< zenzei2> That'd only add to the number of Walking Corpses in here.
20090217 14:39:15< zenzei2> It just so happens I'm used to dealing with internet assholism.
20090217 14:39:25< Soliton> i can see that.
20090217 14:39:38< Soliton> i even dare say you attract it.
20090217 14:40:36< zenzei2> You personally have so far failed to state a case of WHY it'd be bad if any of the suggestions I throw out were to be implemented, Solition.
20090217 14:40:46< zookeeper> he doesn't need to.
20090217 14:41:12< Ivanovic> zenzei2: because then it would be a completely different game, not wesnoth anymore
20090217 14:41:50< Soliton> zenzei_: i'll repeat it for you: needless compliaction.
20090217 14:42:08< voris> KISS dictates that the burden falls upon you, zenzei2, to defend your change.
20090217 14:42:12< voris> Not the other way around.
20090217 14:43:20< zenzei2> Okay, let me bring up a few existing rules that go against KISS.
20090217 14:43:31< zenzei2> Or rather, behaviors.
20090217 14:43:58< zookeeper> would you really rather not defend your idea?
20090217 14:44:11< Soliton> consider the words keep and existing.
20090217 14:44:22< Soliton> there is a funny conection between those two.
20090217 14:44:24< zenzei2> Since that has so far failed with the lemmings in here, I'd try the other way around for a change.
20090217 14:44:36-!- krt [n=krt@dslb-088-066-042-037.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090217 14:44:53< zenzei2> If a Poisoned Regenerating unit is in a Village and next to a Healer, how much health does it heal on the next turn?
20090217 14:45:04< Soliton> 0
20090217 14:45:17< Soliton> how much does it get when it is not poisoned?
20090217 14:45:34< zenzei2> The rules, in all their KISSness, seem to suggest it would recover from poison, and gain at least 16 HP.
20090217 14:45:53< Soliton> you fail at rule comprehension.
20090217 14:46:05< zenzei2> And you fail at arguments, jackass.
20090217 14:46:10< zenzei2> Why the added, UNWRITTEN, complication, of not allowing multiple healing factors?
20090217 14:46:14< Soliton> oh, haha.
20090217 14:46:36< zenzei2> By the same retarded logic you've derided my suggestions, that behavior fails as well.
20090217 14:46:47< Soliton> Ivanovic: please remove zenzei2.
20090217 14:46:48-!- zenzei_ [n=zookeepe@116.71.77.191] has quit [Connection timed out]
20090217 14:46:58< zenzei2> Yeah, I was wondering when it'd come to that.
20090217 14:46:59< Soliton> he does not seem to want a civil discussion.
20090217 14:47:02< voris> I'm fairly certain if I cared enough I could come up with an event in WML that would weaken a unit's terrain defense stats each time it was attacked.
20090217 14:47:05< zenzei2> Fuck you Soliton.
20090217 14:47:08< Soliton> :-)
20090217 14:47:18-!- mode/#wesnoth [+o Ivanovic] by ChanServ
20090217 14:47:18< zenzei2> I've been doing nothing but conversing in a civil manner.
20090217 14:47:19< zookeeper> oh dear :)
20090217 14:47:20< zookeeper> byebye!
20090217 14:47:24< zenzei2> And fuck you Ivanovic.
20090217 14:47:25< zookeeper> sure you have
20090217 14:47:27< voris> And then create an entire era that was all afflicted with that.
20090217 14:47:28-!- mode/#wesnoth [+b zenzei2!*@*] by Ivanovic
20090217 14:47:28-!- zenzei2 was kicked from #wesnoth by Ivanovic [killall users!]
20090217 14:47:40< voris> heh
20090217 14:47:42< zookeeper> "I've been doing nothing but conversing in a civil manner" must be the quote of the day.
20090217 14:47:45< zookeeper> thanks.
20090217 14:48:08< ilor> the world seems a nicer place suddenly
20090217 14:48:09-!- BenUrban [n=benurban@unaffiliated/benurban] has quit ["Power failu"]
20090217 14:48:41-!- mode/#wesnoth [-o Ivanovic] by Ivanovic
20090217 14:49:43-!- krt [n=krt@dslb-088-066-042-037.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 14:55:26-!- krt_ [n=krt@dslb-088-066-042-037.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 14:55:49-!- krt [n=krt@dslb-088-066-042-037.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
20090217 15:24:04-!- nital_ [n=nital@public26298.xdsl.centertel.pl] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 15:24:09-!- nital [n=nital@public32379.xdsl.centertel.pl] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
20090217 15:28:45-!- krt_ [n=krt@dslb-088-066-042-037.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090217 15:29:06-!- krt [n=krt@dslb-088-066-042-037.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 15:33:28-!- silemme [n=silemme@32.178.0-93.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 15:33:45< silemme> bonjour
20090217 15:33:55< Soliton> greetings.
20090217 15:33:55< silemme> hello
20090217 15:34:24< silemme> who is under linux ?
20090217 15:34:33 * Soliton 
20090217 15:34:57< silemme> soliton ?
20090217 15:36:51< silemme> how execute map editor ?
20090217 15:37:21< Soliton> what wesnoth version?
20090217 15:38:05< Soliton> well, i'll assume 1.4 so wesnoth_editor.
20090217 15:38:38< silemme> ok i'm french with an bad english
20090217 15:39:20< silemme> i don't know the version but install via yum two days ago
20090217 15:39:39< silemme> the last..;
20090217 15:41:27< voris> so, fedora?
20090217 15:41:49< silemme> yes
20090217 15:43:09< silemme> an idea ?
20090217 15:43:37< Soliton> as i mentioned wesnoth_editor.
20090217 15:45:10< voris> Not wesnoth-editor?
20090217 15:45:19< silemme> not
20090217 15:46:11< silemme> anything in /bin for exe, only wesnoth
20090217 15:46:28< Soliton> then you don't have the editor installed.
20090217 15:46:37< voris> Can I assume you did "yum install wesnoth"?
20090217 15:46:51< voris> You probably need to now do "yum install wesnoth-editor"
20090217 15:47:19< silemme> ok i test
20090217 15:49:36< silemme> no but in /share i have wesnoth-editor doc but no exe 
20090217 15:49:38-!- krt [n=krt@dslb-088-066-042-037.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090217 15:49:57-!- krt [n=krt@dslb-088-066-042-037.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 15:59:19-!- krt [n=krt@dslb-088-066-042-037.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090217 15:59:37-!- krt [n=krt@dslb-088-066-042-037.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 16:00:59< silemme> "yum install wesnoth-tools" ^^
20090217 16:01:02< silemme> thanks
20090217 16:01:08-!- silemme [n=silemme@32.178.0-93.rev.gaoland.net] has left #wesnoth []
20090217 16:02:20< voris> interesting.
20090217 16:02:48< voris> I would not have thought that would be necessary.
20090217 16:02:50-!- Baufo [n=thomas@62-47-157-212.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 16:03:00-!- moist [n=moist@77-21-64-220-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 16:04:26< moist> Hi. In a network game (on the official server), is it possible to re-enter a game, picking up where I left of, after I was disconnected? (I'm asking because I want a slow moving game with a few friends while we're at work and one of us can't leave his workstation running over night)
20090217 16:05:02< Soliton> yes, the host can give you control back anytime.
20090217 16:05:53< voris> If the game goes on long enough, it would be worth noticing the "fast replay" checkbox at the top of the lobby and checking that before rejoining the game.
20090217 16:05:58< zookeeper> the host can also just recreate the game from a savefile so you can resume.
20090217 16:06:34< zookeeper> no need to leave the clients running for long times in between.
20090217 16:08:18< moist> ah, that's good to know, thank you
20090217 16:09:35< voris> I did not notice how to load a save file at first so it's probably worth mentioning that there is a "load game" option at the top of the map list when you start a new multiplayer game.
20090217 16:10:08< voris> And then it'll show you all your save files.
20090217 16:17:33< moist> thanks :-)
20090217 16:19:23-!- cib0 [n=cib@p4FD0C709.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 16:20:05< cib0> does anyone know of some very EventWML heavy content?
20090217 16:20:44< zookeeper> in mainline?
20090217 16:21:34-!- lizard_r [n=MirandaM@W92c0.w.pppool.de] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 16:22:37< cib0> no, in general
20090217 16:22:42< cib0> stuff like ANL
20090217 16:23:12< cib0> though ANL isnt as heavy anymore in 1.4
20090217 16:23:27< zookeeper> well, any of bob's scenarios :p
20090217 16:23:45< zookeeper> most of the add-on MP scenarios are rather WML-heavy
20090217 16:24:25< cib0> yup, though on 1.2 ANL was so heavy, it could freeze wesnoth for quite some time
20090217 16:26:08< cib0> but bob noticed that and removed quite alot
20090217 16:26:35< cib0> gambit's empire builder looks heavy.. 3 MB and i dont think he has any units included
20090217 16:28:13-!- moist [n=moist@77-21-64-220-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit ["leaving"]
20090217 16:28:42< cib0> ah, nevermind, he has.. desert elves and all o.o
20090217 16:36:20-!- ikarius [n=ross@216.27.182.3] has quit []
20090217 16:42:11-!- cib0 [n=cib@p4FD0C709.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090217 16:57:09-!- Miccoh [n=Miccoh@cs181114114.pp.htv.fi] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 16:59:54-!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090217 17:04:34-!- Dragonking [n=dk@dedikerad/dragonking] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 17:06:12-!- Turuk [n=Turuk@FUSE-WS1-208-102-202-188.fuse.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
20090217 17:07:15-!- mich- [n=mich@host159-243-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 17:07:23-!- Turuk [n=Turuk@FUSE-WS1-208-102-202-188.fuse.net] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 17:14:06-!- uzsolt [i=uzsolt@team.pld-linux.org] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 17:20:53-!- shevy [n=shevy@chello080108103172.36.11.univie.teleweb.at] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 17:21:09< shevy> any winner so far for the build system between scons and cmake, or is autoconf still the one with the upper hands?
20090217 17:22:03< Soliton> no official winner. scons is probably used most by now though.
20090217 17:25:14-!- harryBer [n=harryBer@81.25.57.113] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 17:26:57< Ivanovic> autoconf is in a position of "somehow it works" though noone is giving it much love those days
20090217 17:27:08< Ivanovic> scons works and is well maintained by loonycyborg
20090217 17:27:18< Ivanovic> cmake works, too
20090217 17:27:20-!- Ape [n=ape@ape3000.com] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 17:27:53< Ape> How can I set the victory conditions so that you have to kill every single unit, not just the leader?
20090217 17:28:21< Soliton> victory_when_enemies_defeated=yes or something.
20090217 17:28:30< zookeeper> no
20090217 17:28:44-!- Ken_Oh [n=briang@65.199.33.17] has left #wesnoth []
20090217 17:28:45< zookeeper> Ape, use victory_when_enemies_defeated=no and then add a die event which uses an [if] to check whether there are enemies still alive, and if not, [endlevel]
20090217 17:29:08< Ape> k, thanks
20090217 17:31:08-!- Turuk [n=Turuk@FUSE-WS1-208-102-202-188.fuse.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
20090217 17:37:10-!- Turuk [n=Turuk@FUSE-WS1-208-102-202-188.fuse.net] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 17:44:14< Ape> Is there a documentation about the [if]?
20090217 17:45:42< mich-> http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/InternalActionsWML
20090217 17:47:48< zookeeper> ReferenceWML is 90% of what you ever need (although it might be confusing in the beginning when you don't grasp the bigger picture)
20090217 17:48:57< Ape> I couldn't find the correct page with the search
20090217 18:04:59-!- cjhopman_ [n=chris@68-118-159-7.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090217 18:13:38< Ape> What am I doing wrong? http://ape3000.com/tools/pastebin2.php?id=b51f0edf
20090217 18:13:50< Ape> The game should end if there is no units in the team "orcs"
20090217 18:16:55-!- Noyga [n=noyga@AVelizy-151-1-18-237.w82-124.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 18:22:35< zookeeper> a lot of things.
20090217 18:22:57< Ape> I just find something myself, but it is still not working
20090217 18:23:11< zookeeper> your event triggers only once, [have_unit] doesn't take a [filter], a standard unit filter doesn't recognize a team= 
20090217 18:23:23< Ape> Currently I have it like this: http://ape3000.com/tools/pastebin2.php?id=46121d7f
20090217 18:24:17< Ape> only once? There is the problem
20090217 18:25:15< Ape> testing with: first_time_only=no
20090217 18:26:34< zookeeper> yep
20090217 18:26:52< Ape> It worked! Thanks
20090217 18:28:13-!- cjhopman_ [n=chris@dyn-0-169.uwnet.wisc.edu] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 18:28:32-!- Ken_Oh [n=briang@65.199.33.17] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 18:38:00-!- mich- [n=mich@host159-243-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has left #wesnoth ["Leaving."]
20090217 18:44:22-!- ettin [n=jorda@31.207.219.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
20090217 18:49:05-!- Dragonking [n=dk@dedikerad/dragonking] has quit []
20090217 18:49:35-!- Dragonking [n=dk@dedikerad/dragonking] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 18:54:43-!- cjhopman_ [n=chris@dyn-0-169.uwnet.wisc.edu] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"]
20090217 18:57:42-!- grzywacz [n=grzywacz@moinmoin/developer/karol] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 19:16:16-!- lizard_r [n=MirandaM@W92c0.w.pppool.de] has quit ["I'm gone, but the Saurians will last."]
20090217 19:23:16-!- Ken_Oh [n=briang@65.199.33.17] has left #wesnoth []
20090217 19:29:56-!- mich- [n=mich@host159-243-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 19:33:46-!- Elvish_Pillage2 [n=eli@66-189-14-42.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 19:36:53-!- vjoe [n=vjoe@hh088c.halls.manchester.ac.uk] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 19:47:02-!- ettin [n=jorda@25.207.219.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 19:49:42-!- Elvish_Pillager [n=eli@66-189-14-42.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090217 19:50:04< dfranke> so to summarize zenzei's ranting from earlier... I had a bunch of bad rolls against his spearman and won anyway, and this shows there's too much luck in the game?
20090217 19:51:06< Soliton> it shows you were annoyed and the game should have prevented that!
20090217 19:51:44< Turuk> Will that feature be implemented in say 1.8?  Annoyance prevention?  What's the timeline on that patch?
20090217 19:51:56< dfranke> tactically, he actually wasn't a bad player.  Strategically he was clueless though.
20090217 19:52:25< dfranke> Kept throwing himself against my few units in the north-center while I rolled down his southern flank virtually unopposed.
20090217 19:52:27< Turuk> Winning a battle here and there will not win the war
20090217 20:22:15-!- hagabaka [n=hagabaka@unaffiliated/hagabaka] has quit [SendQ exceeded]
20090217 20:26:36-!- thespaceinvader [n=chatzill@91.108.140.221] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 20:29:27-!- noy [n=Noy@d75-157-52-251.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 20:29:58< noy> zookeeper: did you see what happened with zenzei?
20090217 20:32:07< zookeeper> noy, i saw it all.
20090217 20:32:09< Soliton> he was part of the cover-up!
20090217 20:33:40-!- hagabaka [n=hagabaka@unaffiliated/hagabaka] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 20:35:13-!- Pagan [i=irc_by_u@80.94.226.151] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 20:37:03-!- Pagan [i=irc_by_u@80.94.226.151] has quit [Client Quit]
20090217 20:40:28< Ivanovic> re
20090217 20:42:44< dfranke> noy: FYI, I won.
20090217 20:42:55< noy> And what did he say dfranke ?
20090217 20:43:28< dfranke> noy: he didn't say anything until I after I went to bed...
20090217 20:43:41< noy> did it take you long?
20090217 20:44:20< dfranke> on turn 9, I think, he admitted he was losing and told me I could quit...
20090217 20:44:41< dfranke> I told him either resign or finish it off, that I was going to keep playing as long as he was.
20090217 20:44:47< dfranke> on turn 12 he resigned.
20090217 20:45:08< dfranke> then after I went to bed he started saying on IRC that I had quit and he kept playing against the AI.
20090217 20:46:06< dfranke> then he went on a long rant that, in summary, seems to assert that I had a bunch of bad rolls against his spearman and won anyawy, and this somehow shows there's too much luck in the game.
20090217 20:47:19< dfranke> anyway, he was actually a pretty decent tactician, but his strategy was terrible.
20090217 20:47:19< noy> terrible
20090217 20:47:28< noy> He wasn't too bad
20090217 20:47:41< noy> thats why I told you to be more conservative
20090217 20:47:55< dfranke> but he kept on throwing his entire army against my four units in the north, while I rolled down his south flank almost unopposed.
20090217 20:48:23< dfranke> poisoned his leader and cut him off from villages.
20090217 20:48:41-!- Shadow_Master [n=imorelle@unaffiliated/shadowmaster/x-275924] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 20:52:09< noy> hm
20090217 20:53:34 * Shadow_Master . O o (hungry lion?)
20090217 20:55:02< Shadow_Master> ah, I see. Good riddance.
20090217 20:56:38< dfranke> noy: also, Soliton added a new option to http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=299861#p299861 in zenzei's honor.
20090217 20:56:51-!- Dragonking [n=dk@dedikerad/dragonking] has quit []
20090217 20:56:53-!- Dragonking [n=dk@dedikerad/dragonking] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 20:58:18< noy> I don't see it dfranke 
20090217 20:59:26< Shadow_Master> it's unintuitively hidden !
20090217 21:00:07< dfranke> "It ruins single-player mode because obsessive players can just reload until they get their preferred outcome"
20090217 21:01:27< noy> ah
20090217 21:02:22< dfranke> though I think that was only his argument for ten minutes or so.
20090217 21:02:28< dfranke> after that... I'm not quite sure.
20090217 21:02:51-!- shevy [n=shevy@chello080108103172.36.11.univie.teleweb.at] has quit [""""]
20090217 21:03:39< Shadow_Master> I assume it was the same zsensei that was blaming us for forcing him to use a broken Windows editor or something?
20090217 21:04:15< dfranke> ?
20090217 21:04:17< Soliton> i think so.
20090217 21:04:35< dfranke> you mean there's *more* drama?
20090217 21:04:36< noy> hmmm
20090217 21:04:42< dfranke> this is better than broadway.
20090217 21:05:11< Shadow_Master> meh, it's probably a dude who broke up with his girlfriend or something.
20090217 21:05:31< Soliton> yeah, he was here before complaining that our shortcuts are not case insenstive.
20090217 21:06:01< dfranke> what was his rationale for that being considered a problem?
20090217 21:06:04< Soliton> which actually wasn't a bad camplaint but the discussion evolved similarly. ;-)
20090217 21:06:09< Soliton> complaint*
20090217 21:06:19< Soliton> it's the norm apparently.
20090217 21:06:46< dfranke> hmm, on Windows?
20090217 21:07:17< Soliton> i think generally. not on console apps but everywhere else.
20090217 21:08:53< dfranke> I think it's typical that they're case insensitive if they use any buckybits other than shift, and case sensitive if they don't.              
20090217 21:09:39< Soliton> well, yes they can't use shift of course. :-)
20090217 21:10:05< dfranke> so 'x' is different from 'X' but 'C-x' is the same as 'C-X'.
20090217 21:10:58< dfranke> and that this is more likely an artifact of mapping of control characters on ASCII than anything coherently thought out.
20090217 21:11:00-!- mich- [n=mich@host159-243-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has left #wesnoth []
20090217 21:11:13< Shadow_Master> unix shortcuts argarg david white your developers are stupid
20090217 21:11:18< Shadow_Master> ;-)
20090217 21:15:19< ilor> I'd assume hotkeys are case sensitive. Case in point, in open office C-b does bold, C-B does something different ;)
20090217 21:15:53< Shadow_Master> I don't use any *office programs though.
20090217 21:16:12< Shadow_Master> I consider them a waste of space unless I really need to work with them daily.
20090217 21:17:10< dfranke> I use TeX for everything.
20090217 21:17:45< dfranke> I keep openoffice around in case I need to open a .doc file, but I never compose anything with it.
20090217 21:22:42-!- Turuk [n=Turuk@FUSE-WS1-208-102-202-188.fuse.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer]
20090217 21:22:57-!- Turuk [n=Turuk@FUSE-WS1-208-102-202-188.fuse.net] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 21:47:42-!- JW1 [n=X@dhcp66-158-5-10.kentlaw.edu] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 21:49:00-!- Noyga [n=noyga@AVelizy-151-1-18-237.w82-124.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"]
20090217 21:50:39-!- Noyga [n=noyga@AVelizy-151-1-63-115.w82-124.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 21:55:09-!- Shadow_Master [n=imorelle@unaffiliated/shadowmaster/x-275924] has quit ["Reconnecting"]
20090217 21:55:09-!- Shadow_Master_ [n=imorelle@unaffiliated/shadowmaster/x-275924] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 21:55:41-!- JW1 [n=X@dhcp66-158-5-10.kentlaw.edu] has quit []
20090217 21:58:30-!- Noyga [n=noyga@AVelizy-151-1-63-115.w82-124.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #wesnoth ["Quitte"]
20090217 22:02:35-!- cjhopman [n=chris@dyn-0-77.uwnet.wisc.edu] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 22:05:48-!- Ken_Oh [n=briang@65.199.33.17] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 22:10:12-!- Baufo [n=thomas@62-47-157-212.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["Leaving"]
20090217 22:12:19-!- Elvish_Pillage2 is now known as You
20090217 22:12:37-!- You is now known as Elvish_Pillager
20090217 22:15:15-!- Shadow_Master_ [n=imorelle@unaffiliated/shadowmaster/x-275924] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
20090217 22:15:22-!- nital__ [n=nital@public26298.xdsl.centertel.pl] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 22:15:23-!- Shadow_Master [n=imorelle@unaffiliated/shadowmaster/x-275924] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 22:15:36-!- Netsplit anthony.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: zookeeper, nital_
20090217 22:37:53-!- kane__ [n=kane@194.1.130.108] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 22:45:08-!- zookeeper [n=l@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe9ff800-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 22:48:50-!- CTConqueror [n=a@ip-152010172089.student.appstate.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090217 22:57:37-!- Ken_Oh [n=briang@65.199.33.17] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
20090217 23:02:28-!- Turuk [n=Turuk@FUSE-WS1-208-102-202-188.fuse.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
20090217 23:02:43-!- Turuk [n=Turuk@FUSE-WS1-208-102-202-188.fuse.net] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 23:05:18-!- noy [n=Noy@d75-157-52-251.bchsia.telus.net] has quit ["GO, GET TO THE CHOPPAH!!!"]
20090217 23:07:04-!- kane__ is now known as kane77
20090217 23:16:23-!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 23:17:31-!- nital__ [n=nital@public26298.xdsl.centertel.pl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
20090217 23:25:33-!- uzsolt [i=uzsolt@team.pld-linux.org] has left #wesnoth []
20090217 23:34:06-!- Dragonking [n=dk@dedikerad/dragonking] has quit []
20090217 23:35:42< Soliton> Smar: looks like no one can reproduce http://gna.org/bugs/?13015
20090217 23:36:09< Soliton> oh you're in #wesnoth-dev too.
20090217 23:36:32< Smar> mm :/
20090217 23:37:53-!- Shadow_Master_ [n=imorelle@unaffiliated/shadowmaster/x-275924] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 23:37:58-!- Shadow_Master [n=imorelle@unaffiliated/shadowmaster/x-275924] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090217 23:38:53< Smar> oh, and...
20090217 23:39:08< Smar> it’s that dialog that’s opened from t
20090217 23:39:25< Smar> Run AI formula
20090217 23:39:54< Smar> maybe I should pay more attention to those reports... :(
20090217 23:40:49< Soliton> uh
20090217 23:41:24< Soliton> it's f...
20090217 23:41:35< Soliton> really got to work on those bug reporting skills. ;-)
20090217 23:42:50< Smar> ....and skils writing to only one chan :(
20090217 23:43:02-!- cjhopman [n=chris@dyn-0-77.uwnet.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090217 23:43:03< Smar> ...and not write typos all the time...
20090217 23:50:55-!- Shadow_Master [n=imorelle@unaffiliated/shadowmaster/x-275924] has joined #wesnoth
20090217 23:52:26-!- Shadow_Master_ [n=imorelle@unaffiliated/shadowmaster/x-275924] has quit ["There's a bug in my soup."]
20090217 23:53:46< Ivanovic> n8
--- Log closed Wed Feb 18 00:00:25 2009