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20090218 03:03:26< Turuk> I think car horns should sound like gunshots 'cause the sound of a horn is not representin' my road rage properly. I've never been angry with someone and had the urge to toot a trumpet.
20090218 03:03:59< Shadow_Master> Turuk, the Forum Sith who chats on IRC while driving.
20090218 03:04:13< Turuk> Blackberries are a curse....
20090218 03:04:26< Turuk> Nah, I'm just listening to some comedians.
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20090218 10:16:30< Ivanovic> moin
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20090218 12:06:29< Unnheulu> lol
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20090218 12:11:11< voris> wow
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20090218 12:25:45< Unnheulu> thespaceinvader: cardiff lost against arsenal :(
20090218 12:25:55< thespaceinvader> *shrug*
20090218 12:25:58 * Unnheulu cries
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20090218 13:16:21< Ken_Oh> turuk?
20090218 13:16:41< Ken_Oh> wesbot says you're looking for me
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20090218 14:20:12< Unnheulu> thespaceinvader: you dont care about whether or not cardiff are gonna be in the fa cup final?>
20090218 14:20:26< thespaceinvader> no
20090218 14:20:38< Unnheulu> -.- why?
20090218 14:20:38< thespaceinvader> i don't care about football full stop
20090218 14:20:42< Unnheulu> ok
20090218 14:20:58< Unnheulu> but cardiff could be in the premiership :P
20090218 14:21:02< thespaceinvader> because i don't enjoy watching or playing it
20090218 14:21:09< thespaceinvader> ...and?
20090218 14:21:13< Unnheulu> Cardiff are unbeaten for 10 games in the league
20090218 14:21:19< Unnheulu> they are doing well
20090218 14:21:25< thespaceinvader> wooh(!)
20090218 14:21:30< Unnheulu> -.-
20090218 14:22:41< Unnheulu> thespaceinvader: whats wrong with football?
20090218 14:22:47< thespaceinvader> nothing
20090218 14:22:52< thespaceinvader> i don't personally enjoy it
20090218 14:23:02< Unnheulu> its better than rugby
20090218 14:23:47< nital> Unnheulu: tell your mother that "species_8472" has streak of 30 wins in Wesnoth ladder and see if she's impressed ;)
20090218 14:23:56< Unnheulu> hehehe
20090218 14:32:38< Unnheulu> out of curiosity, how long does 1.5 take to compile?
20090218 14:32:59< Unnheulu> Im thinking of upgrading to dev, cause I havnt tried dev since 1.5.4 IIRC
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20090218 14:38:28< Unnheulu> Turuk: i didnt know what OP stood for either, woodmouse isnt alone :P
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20090218 15:04:51< voris> Depends on your machine.
20090218 15:04:59< voris> Mine takes a couple of hours. :)
20090218 15:05:04< Unnheulu> ok
20090218 15:05:06< Unnheulu> thanks
20090218 15:05:19< voris> Mine is old and lame though.
20090218 15:05:21< Unnheulu> well its still on the make
20090218 15:05:25< Unnheulu> but tahts to be expecte
20090218 15:05:26< Unnheulu> d
20090218 15:05:40< Unnheulu> mine is three years old, and the processor wasnt exactly top of the range then xD
20090218 15:06:08< voris> Ok, so possibly an accurate assessment then.
20090218 15:06:28< Unnheulu> it used to take about half an hour ot an hour
20090218 15:06:32< Unnheulu> but that was 1.3
20090218 15:06:49< Unnheulu> still having a not so bloated XFCE may speed things up
20090218 15:07:01< voris> Could be.
20090218 15:07:43< voris> I'm running gnome just because getting the laptop+external monitor setup to work dynamically on xfce was a pain.
20090218 15:08:03< Unnheulu> hmm
20090218 15:12:32< Turuk> Ken_Oh, I was not looking for you persay, I just had a couple questions about Wesband.
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20090218 17:42:03< Unnheulu> installing
20090218 17:52:45< Ken_Oh> anyone know if there's a way to make a side exempt from upkeep or do I have to do it one unit at a time
20090218 17:52:46< Ken_Oh> ?
20090218 17:54:23< zookeeper> the latter, whatever it means :p
20090218 17:55:26< zookeeper> but yeah, if i'd need to make a side not have to pay any upkeep, i'd make all its units have upkeep=free, like in the manor scenarios in DiD
20090218 17:55:36< zookeeper> or =loyal or whatever it was
20090218 17:56:48< thespaceinvader> is there any way to make offsets defined in terms of pixels, not in terms of proportionate distance between hexes?
20090218 17:57:33< thespaceinvader> because i can work out exactly what offsets I need to make the animation work in terms of x-y in pixels, but...
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20090218 17:57:58< thespaceinvader> wait, i think i got it...
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20090218 18:03:16< TheAncientGoat> Hey gamers and developers, mind if I ask a few questions about open source gaming and development? 
20090218 18:04:13< thespaceinvader> feel free =)
20090218 18:07:22< TheAncientGoat> Is it mainly players or devs in this channel?
20090218 18:07:55< Turuk> Players, but there are a few developers floating around
20090218 18:08:06< thespaceinvader> couldn't say for certain, but i'd peg it at about 50:50
20090218 18:08:16< thespaceinvader> of the people who'll actually reply, anyway...
20090218 18:08:37< elias> the devs (and also some players) are in #wesnoth-dev
20090218 18:09:20< elias> but 90% are in both channels anyway :)
20090218 18:09:44< Unnheulu> sirp only seems to be in #wesnoth-dev anyways
20090218 18:10:06< TheAncientGoat> Ah, that will be most helpful, thanks. I'll ask the player based questions here then :)
20090218 18:10:19< Turuk> Why would Sirp trouble with us mere mortals? ;)
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20090218 18:13:21< TheAncientGoat> First of all, I guess some background would be a good idea.. I'm from the FreeGameDev community, and have been planning on developing a bit of a.. system.. for us os gamers and developers to make use of
20090218 18:14:36< TheAncientGoat> Quite a bit of discussion has gone into it, but keeping it all in one community wouldn't really be conductive to creating something that people would use..
20090218 18:16:20< TheAncientGoat> So, I've decided to get opinions and suggestions from across the spectrum of free game players, in order to evaluate the system's needs and maybe necessity better
20090218 18:18:45< TheAncientGoat> I've divided the s
20090218 18:20:30< TheAncientGoat> Erm, I've divided the system into 3 arcs, which I see as enveloping the different aspects of os games, namely Distribution, Contribution, and Community.
20090218 18:22:38< TheAncientGoat> Out of those sets which would you feel could use the most improvement?
20090218 18:22:57< Unnheulu> distribution IMO
20090218 18:23:09< Unnheulu> I always have to compile from source (not that I mind that ;))
20090218 18:23:30< Unnheulu> and I use Xubuntu as well, so I find it surprising that debs arent ready that fast
20090218 18:23:46< Unnheulu> but the community is huge, as is the number of contributers
20090218 18:24:22< Ken_Oh> zoo: thanks
20090218 18:24:29< Turuk> It takes me 10 mins to download and install Windows or Mac ;) so it may be distribution based on your OS Unnheulu
20090218 18:25:00< TheAncientGoat> Ah, but Wesnoth is definitely among the biggest OS games out there... So the community and even contribution aspect would be very apparent
20090218 18:25:01< Unnheulu> Turuk: ye, mac and windows are fine
20090218 18:25:26< Turuk> Then distribution is only needing improvement for one aspect, and not the whole area
20090218 18:25:30< Unnheulu> but xmoto for instance, before they announce then they have packages for like 10-15 systems
20090218 18:25:38< Turuk> So you have to be careful with statements like that
20090218 18:26:00< Unnheulu> ?
20090218 18:27:01< Ken_Oh> turuk: wesbot told me you were looking for me
20090218 18:27:02< TheAncientGoat> I've always wondered why source compilation has never been automated in Linux.. A simple interface that allows you to run configure and make at the press of a button would make a begginer's life much easier
20090218 18:27:32< Turuk> Ah, I was just going to ask you about Wesband, but after poking around in the thread for a bit and the add-on itself, I think I am good now
20090218 18:27:47< Turuk> I wanted to try something different, but it took me a while to get into the swing of things :P
20090218 18:28:00< Ken_Oh> ok, cool. any thoughts?
20090218 18:28:35< Ken_Oh> oh, yeah, i need to actually put a help section in there. just one of the many things on "the list"
20090218 18:28:52< Turuk> I like it so far, and the learning curve is not too bad, just things I was not familiar with that's all.
20090218 18:28:56< elias> TheAncientGoat: maybe because debian/ubuntu are binary distributions, and have quite a few users
20090218 18:29:18< elias> and they would not benefit at all
20090218 18:29:28< elias> as they won't compile no matter how easy it is :P
20090218 18:29:33< Turuk> I'll have more time to get into it this evening, but I like how everything is randomly generated, makes it feel more "free" and less scripted
20090218 18:30:01< Ken_Oh> yeah, you can thank Dov and TL for most of that
20090218 18:30:08< Ken_Oh> well, the level generation mainly
20090218 18:30:09< TheAncientGoat> elias: But not everything is deb'ed.. There's a whole slew of games that only provide source
20090218 18:30:37< elias> i think they should provide .debs
20090218 18:31:00< elias> i never would have played wesnoth without
20090218 18:31:50< TheAncientGoat> Along with rpms.. and yums.. and autopackages... on each release. 
20090218 18:31:56-!- Noyga [n=noyga@AVelizy-151-1-27-8.w82-124.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #wesnoth
20090218 18:32:21< elias> only .deb would be enough for me :)
20090218 18:33:36< TheAncientGoat> And only a .msi would be enough for a good percentile of the userbase as well :P
20090218 18:34:43< elias> well, ideally you would have all, RPM and YUM and whatever
20090218 18:34:52< elias> DMG
20090218 18:38:09< TheAncientGoat> But that's a lot of work.. Wesnoth has the advantage of having lots of multi-platform users, making it easier to provide a variety of installers, but not every os game out there does. But we're talking about Wesnoth now, I guess, so point taken
20090218 18:41:21< TheAncientGoat> A universal solution would be ideal though, one that takes the packaging problem off of dev's hands
20090218 18:42:46-!- alink_ [n=alink@78.129.18.215] has joined #wesnoth
20090218 18:42:52< elias> true
20090218 18:43:37< elias> someone should set up a server with Windows, Mac, Linux and compile binaries for all OS games :)
20090218 18:44:34< TheAncientGoat> Or, you just automate the compilation procedure in the client that downloads the games
20090218 18:45:01< Smar> and win users would be enough patient for it?
20090218 18:46:33< elias> maybe it could cache the result somewhere
20090218 18:46:59-!- Derekkk [n=chatzill@host81-154-225-242.range81-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #wesnoth
20090218 18:46:59< TheAncientGoat> Win and mac have pretty standard installers, it's not as big a deal to package them
20090218 18:47:09< elias> waiting half an hour for it to compile really would not work well
20090218 18:48:59< elias> i'm already annoyed when apt-get writes "reading cache..." whenever i install something, and it takes 5 seconds
20090218 18:49:08< TheAncientGoat> The basis of this system was kind of conceived as linux only, but windows support is also a possibilty
20090218 18:49:15< elias> installing wesnoth then seeing "compiling..." for 30 minutes.. i'd never play it :P
20090218 18:49:32< law_> hey, does anyone know where to download TL's Heros' Arena?
20090218 18:50:02< law_> i am looking for it on it's forum thread, but it's not there, and it's not on the campaign server either
20090218 18:50:39< TheAncientGoat> Well, the system is planned to be P2P, meaning that it would only take one compile for the result to be available on the network
20090218 18:50:41< Derekkk> law_: try the 1.2 and 1.3 servers
20090218 18:50:49-!- alink [n=alink@78.129.18.215] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090218 18:51:14< Ken_Oh> zoo: if you're still around, is there a way to alter a unit that has just been plagued? say i want to set upkeep=0, but if a unit gets plagued into existence, is there an event i can use to find it?
20090218 18:51:19< elias> TheAncientGoat: that sounds good
20090218 18:51:34< TheAncientGoat> But on Win P2P just screams exploits, so a port would be dangerous
20090218 18:51:47< elias> also on linux
20090218 18:51:58< TheAncientGoat> Yeah, it's possible
20090218 18:52:09< TheAncientGoat> Just not as likely
20090218 18:52:18< law_> Derekkk: where is the 1.3 server?  it doesn't seem to be at http://www.wesnoth.org/addons/
20090218 18:52:18< elias> if i know i'm the one who compiles the wesnoth binary, i could easily install key loggers on lots of systems
20090218 18:52:58< elias> maybe because it's hard right now, e.g. it's very hard or impossible to get a forged Ubuntu package onto one of their mirrors
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20090218 18:53:17< TheAncientGoat> Ah, but that could happen in pretty much any OS app
20090218 18:54:04< TheAncientGoat> Also, the system would have version controll built in, checking for any changes in the sc
20090218 18:55:07< Derekkk> law_: oh, perhaps the 1.3 server has been taken over by 1.5 already...
20090218 18:59:40< law_> yeah it seems so
20090218 19:00:20< law_> so does that mean all 1.3 addons are unavailable if they're not in the 1.4 section?
20090218 19:00:29-!- Baufo [n=thomas@62-47-148-4.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #wesnoth
20090218 19:02:21< Derekkk> there used to be a different server which stores user made add-on too... Not sure if it's still being run though
20090218 19:02:35< TheAncientGoat> elias: You havent heard of/tried DJL yet, by chance?
20090218 19:03:12< law_> Derekkk: ah, any idea what the url is for that server?
20090218 19:03:25< elias> TheAncientGoat: no, got a link?
20090218 19:03:29< law_> i guess i should just keep my own copy of old addons in the future
20090218 19:04:36< elias> TheAncientGoat: but i'm an atypical linux user i guess, i only have apps from the official debian repositories
20090218 19:04:40< Ape> I know how to change the amount of experience that a unit needs to level up, but how do I manipulate the current xp amount(progress) of the unit?
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20090218 19:05:09< Ape> I'd like to give extra exp with an event
20090218 19:05:31< Derekkk> law_:  that's a difficult question. I vaguely remember that it's starts with "wolfe".... that's not very helpful is it
20090218 19:05:31-!- lizard_r [n=MirandaM@Wb6eb.w.pppool.de] has quit ["I'm gone, but the Saurians will last."]
20090218 19:05:44< TheAncientGoat> http://www.djl-linux.org/index_en.php
20090218 19:06:08< TheAncientGoat> It's not ideal though..
20090218 19:07:12< TheAncientGoat> It pretty much downloads versions of games with pre compiled binaries and installs it in your user directory
20090218 19:07:28< TheAncientGoat> But it's a step in the right direction, imo
20090218 19:07:38< zookeeper> Ken_Oh, i guess your only chance is to try to detect that situation in a die or attack end event
20090218 19:08:35< zookeeper> Ape, unit.experience of course
20090218 19:08:35< Derekkk> Ape: store unit and then change the variable for xp?
20090218 19:08:44< law_> Derekkk: thanks, that does help. i'll keep it in mind in case i run across it while searching the forums
20090218 19:08:58< Ape> oh, of course
20090218 19:09:00< Ape> Thaks
20090218 19:09:03< Ape> *thanks
20090218 19:10:16< Soliton> messing with XP can lead to OOS in mp afaik.
20090218 19:10:51< zookeeper> Soliton, presumably only if it triggers leveling
20090218 19:10:58< Soliton> yeah.
20090218 19:10:58< zookeeper> but yeah
20090218 19:12:12< Derekkk> can I ask how I should define the binary path for python AI in campaigns? This is for windows if it makes any difference
20090218 19:13:39< Derekkk> the normal binary path doesn't seem to be enough
20090218 19:13:53-!- Ken_Oh [n=briang@65.199.33.17] has quit ["Leaving."]
20090218 19:15:28< TheAncientGoat> Anyway, we haven't even touched the parts community or contribution aspects yet..
20090218 19:15:40-!- Ken_Oh [n=briang@65.199.33.17] has joined #wesnoth
20090218 19:16:04< Soliton> TheAncientGoat: i don't think creating yet another package manager (for games) is a productive idea.
20090218 19:16:09-!- cjhopman [n=chris@dyn-0-157.uwnet.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090218 19:16:45< TheAncientGoat> Soliton: I agree with that, and that is why I say that djl is a bit flawed
20090218 19:18:01 * zookeeper suggests that the best way to help OSS games would be to directly develop them
20090218 19:18:07-!- kitty_ [n=kitty@e180194085.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #wesnoth
20090218 19:18:40< TheAncientGoat> I do, however, think that being able to talk about, download, and contribute to oss games, without having to trawl the web to find them, would be usefull
20090218 19:20:25< Soliton> well, on linux distributions you have to have faith in your package manager (and the people behind it) and for mac and windows probably hope that the developers provide binaries.
20090218 19:20:52< Soliton> i don't think finding where to download them would be difficult.
20090218 19:20:56< zookeeper> TheAncientGoat, and how would people know about this tool to help them talk about, download, etc..?
20090218 19:21:50< elias> it would have to be the only tool
20090218 19:22:08< elias> if there's 10 different of them, it certainly would be a flawed idea :P
20090218 19:22:23< TheAncientGoat> All package managers have a few games listed. If you could get one app in there, that lists everything that you would be able to find on the web, it would be more successful than either
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20090218 19:23:25< Soliton> listing only?
20090218 19:23:45< Ken_Oh> zoo: i'm afraid the old unit is still there for both die and attack_end. hmmm......
20090218 19:23:58< TheAncientGoat> Solition: finding where to download them isn't that hard, if you know about them. But there are hundreds of oss games out there, all of variable quality, making such searching difficult, and often un rewarding
20090218 19:24:15< TheAncientGoat> Soliton: No, not just listing, the community and contribution aspects are there too
20090218 19:24:24< Soliton> surely, there are enough game rating sites out there?
20090218 19:24:49< TheAncientGoat> Soliton: Not ones that specialize in oss games
20090218 19:24:55< Soliton> ok.
20090218 19:25:00< TheAncientGoat> There's ones that specialize in Linux games, sure
20090218 19:25:04< Soliton> sounds good then.
20090218 19:25:06< zookeeper> yeah, sounds like a website would be the most obvious choice for something like that
20090218 19:25:36< TheAncientGoat> And lots of linux games are oss, but the flaw is pretty obvious
20090218 19:25:38< elias> with infrastructure so people could post binaries maybe
20090218 19:25:39< Soliton> of course then there is the fun question what exactly an OSS game is... ;-)
20090218 19:25:51< elias> like, if i downloaded one of the games and make an OSX installer, i could place it there
20090218 19:25:56< TheAncientGoat> A web portal type thing has been talked about..
20090218 19:26:08< TheAncientGoat> Game Jolt have shown interest
20090218 19:26:11< Ken_Oh> i think i'm just going to have to make a new turn event that finds units not set to upkeep=0
20090218 19:26:15< elias> and then other OSX users could try it out without compiling
20090218 19:26:16< TheAncientGoat> has*?
20090218 19:26:26< zookeeper> but do people who already use linux or whatever really need a special app for telling them what OSS games exist? the people who really are oblivious to OSS games are the windows users who aren't involved in OSS in any way.
20090218 19:26:58< Soliton> anything that is in debian is pretty much by definition OSS.
20090218 19:27:04< zookeeper> Ken_Oh, well, disable the actual plague effect and just create the new unit in the attack end event?
20090218 19:27:49< TheAncientGoat> zookeeper: But that's the thing, you can educate people about OSS in this way
20090218 19:28:46< Ken_Oh> that sounds tough
20090218 19:28:52< TheAncientGoat> People use so much oss, and are totally oblivious to it.. Making it more apparent could only do good
20090218 19:29:14< TheAncientGoat> It's not a aim though, it's just a side effect
20090218 19:30:19< zookeeper> well, when it comes to OSS games the problem is that there are very few good ones.
20090218 19:30:21< TheAncientGoat> and people like the concept of having all of your games in one app. Hence the popularity of steam, heck, even that of djl
20090218 19:30:38< zookeeper> so i don't really see the point in making fancy systems for finding them when there just isn't much to find.
20090218 19:31:32< TheAncientGoat> zookeeper: That is admittedly true. But if the system brings into place advantages of os'ing your game a lot of good freeware games could decide to go the route
20090218 19:31:33< elias> true, the list on the DJL site looks rather complete to me
20090218 19:32:17< elias> there may be 100ds more unfinished or very simple and bad quality OSS games - but not much value in adding those
20090218 19:32:21< zookeeper> there seems to be a gazillion meta-projects around focusing on anything but the actual point: the games
20090218 19:32:46< TheAncientGoat> zookeeper: Such as? Sure, there are lots of engines, but that's all that I can think of
20090218 19:32:54< zookeeper> well, ok, i was mostly thinking of engines
20090218 19:33:06< TheAncientGoat> I'm not a fan of engines either
20090218 19:34:06< TheAncientGoat> Yet again, though, making it easier to use existing content would really cut down on the "re-inventing the wheel" ness that is ever present 
20090218 19:35:21< Soliton> what kind of re-inventing are you thinking about?
20090218 19:36:13< elias> e.g. wesnoth couldn't have re-used much existing artwork as it all is much lower quality
20090218 19:37:19< zookeeper> do people really tend to want to try or have so many games that they'd need a manager app for that? a kind of an index of existing games is great, but that's a job for a website..
20090218 19:37:34< TheAncientGoat> The engines again, mainly. But art and sounds, esspecially, could be re used, if people can differentiate between background and foreground objects.. 
20090218 19:38:30< elias> maybe a website for OSS game developers, which lists where art/sound could be found
20090218 19:38:57< elias> if there is anything to list, and if it doesn't exist yet
20090218 19:39:00< TheAncientGoat> elias: Freegamedev already has a free media search thing, which is brilliant
20090218 19:39:20< TheAncientGoat> but nobody uses it :(
20090218 19:39:26< elias> heh
20090218 19:39:56< TheAncientGoat> Mainly because nobody knows of it, because it is hidden on a website, and not in a place where you would develop :P
20090218 19:40:03< zookeeper> Derekkk, look how every other binary_path is written
20090218 19:40:34< zookeeper> no one writes /images into their paths, so why should you have ai/python?
20090218 19:40:56< TheAncientGoat> zookeeper: 10 games is reasonable, I'd think, enough to warrant managerial features
20090218 19:41:08< TheAncientGoat> but managing isn't the point though
20090218 19:41:50-!- Rrenys [n=rrenys@81-20-159-197.levira.ee] has joined #wesnoth
20090218 19:44:21< TheAncientGoat> Anyway, we are still only surfing on the one arc..
20090218 19:45:41< zookeeper> well, when it comes to contribution, i doubt you can really help people contribute to projects in any external way. the project itself must make it easy to contribute to it.
20090218 19:47:00< zookeeper> for example, there's no way you could keep a list of what sort of contribution which games is in need of right now
20090218 19:47:16-!- Elvish_Pillager [n=eli@66-189-14-42.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #wesnoth
20090218 19:47:39< TheAncientGoat> The project itself must make it easy to contribute to, true, but there are many forms of contribution, and many ways to facilitate it
20090218 19:48:44< TheAncientGoat> Even if it's just a paypal button next to the game's download button(very rough example), it's still a form of contribution
20090218 19:49:29< zookeeper> sure
20090218 19:50:38< TheAncientGoat> But in traditional contribution, you could also always put a link to a "How can I help make this game better?" page along with that
20090218 19:51:14-!- grzywacz [n=grzywacz@moinmoin/developer/karol] has joined #wesnoth
20090218 19:51:51< Rrenys> i think very few contributers actually contribute to "make something better"
20090218 19:52:24< TheAncientGoat> I would also like to cut down on the amount of registration required to contribute.. At the moment it is pretty much: Register for the forum, register for the wiki, register for the svn (or whatever), register for the upload service you are using, etc.
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20090218 19:52:55< TheAncientGoat> Rrenys: A true, if cynical view :)
20090218 19:53:30< TheAncientGoat> Which is why I though of making a Ohloh type of contribution tracker
20090218 19:54:21< TheAncientGoat> So instead of "How can I help?" it would be "How can I enlarge my e-....."
20090218 19:54:31< Soliton> i don't think it's a big deal that you have to register at the forum or the wiki in order to participate there.
20090218 19:54:54< Soliton> if people can't be bothered to do that what quality contributions will they make?
20090218 19:55:01< TheAncientGoat> For every single game you contribute to?
20090218 19:55:12< Soliton> considering what you get even with registration...
20090218 19:55:32< TheAncientGoat> It's not a matter of effort, it is more a matter of unity..
20090218 19:55:33< zookeeper> how many people contribute to more than 2 projects?
20090218 19:55:34< Soliton> how many games do you contribute to?
20090218 19:56:08< Soliton> also you can just use the same account name and password if you worry about forgetting them.. or let your browser manage that.
20090218 19:56:26< TheAncientGoat> that binds along with the benefit of easing the amount of reppetition
20090218 19:56:44 * Soliton can't parse that.
20090218 19:57:20< TheAncientGoat> I've worked on 2, but are on the forums of quite a few, and would definitely contribute to wikis more often if it where not for the re-setting up of things
20090218 19:57:52< Soliton> i don't think i really buy that.
20090218 19:58:09< TheAncientGoat> Buy what?
20090218 19:58:24< zookeeper> i can't really see the benefits of making that stuff faster and easier to be anything but minimal...contributors who are not useless are the ones that are dedicated in the first place
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20090218 19:58:41< Soliton> that you can't be bothered to register on a wiki but if you wouldn't need to would contribute a lot.
20090218 19:59:14< TheAncientGoat> I didn't say I would contribute to a single wiki a lot if the registration was easier
20090218 19:59:39< TheAncientGoat> More along the lines of minor changes..
20090218 19:59:40< Soliton> what kind of contributions would that be? typo fixes?
20090218 19:59:41< elias> i even registered on freegamesdev.net wiki to add SDL to your list of engines just before - it's not that hard :)
20090218 20:00:07-!- Shadow_Master [n=imorelle@unaffiliated/shadowmaster/x-275924] has joined #wesnoth
20090218 20:00:10< elias> i didn't bother to make the edit after i was registered though :P
20090218 20:00:34< Unnheulu> elias: on a related note, have oyu left libregamewiki?
20090218 20:00:37< zookeeper> 90% of the problem is that there just aren't enough people doing actual useful work, i doubt the hassle of registering on the forums, getting to know certain things and all that is really an impediment to any serious potentially useful contributor.
20090218 20:01:13< elias> Unnheulu: yes, i left it after 1 day already
20090218 20:01:17< elias> my edit was reverted
20090218 20:01:20< Unnheulu> :D
20090218 20:01:22< Unnheulu> :P
20090218 20:01:26< elias> that's a big no if you want to keep users :)
20090218 20:01:33< zookeeper> this, to be somewhat blunt, sounds like something which would just make more people click some buttons to make them feel like they're involved without actually ever doing anything useful
20090218 20:01:34< TheAncientGoat> But people don't know what the useful work is .. 
20090218 20:01:56< zookeeper> well, let's take wesnoth for an example
20090218 20:02:00< zookeeper> what's useful work for wesnoth?
20090218 20:02:04< Soliton> then they don't really want to get involved.
20090218 20:02:43< zookeeper> let's say you're good with art, and want to help out. you play the game a bit and you already immediately know that we have portraits, sprite art, terrain art, and some story images.
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20090218 20:03:51< zookeeper> there's really no way for any external program to tell them which portrait they could work on, in which style, etc. they have to come to the forums or irc anyway to get the important details, not to mention feedback.
20090218 20:04:26< TheAncientGoat> zookeeper: Rating system on the game files could easily show what needs work
20090218 20:04:43< TheAncientGoat> The style would also be reflected by that
20090218 20:05:02< Soliton> the power of anonymous rating systems...
20090218 20:05:37< Soliton> how would that work for example?
20090218 20:05:45< elias> wondering the same
20090218 20:06:08< Soliton> 5 artists make a portrait of the same thing and then people vote?
20090218 20:06:14< TheAncientGoat> The implementation? Or the gist?
20090218 20:06:24< Soliton> let's start with the gist.
20090218 20:06:30< elias> the "rating system on the game files" part
20090218 20:07:03< elias> there are about 10000 files in wesnoth i guess, so a rating on each wouldn't be useful
20090218 20:07:27< zookeeper> maintaining a list of "things that need doing" for wesnoth would be a big pile of work. none of us would do it, i'm quite sure.
20090218 20:07:45< TheAncientGoat> The existing media would be viewable, and people would be able to rate what they like or not. That which is rated as low would be on the priority list for improvements, and that which is rated high would be used as wesnoth
20090218 20:08:11< Soliton> and developers would naturally go with that?
20090218 20:08:13< elias> it would be enough if the devs could vote
20090218 20:08:42< TheAncientGoat> elias: Thats the useful thing about having a large player base.. 100 files each isn't too hard
20090218 20:09:00< Soliton> not to be mean but i'm not sure if you know how open source works. :-P
20090218 20:09:02< TheAncientGoat> Even better if you could rate it in-game, but that would be /a bit/ hard :P
20090218 20:09:18< elias> artists aren't really bothered much by the opinion of random players
20090218 20:09:21< elias> in OSS
20090218 20:09:29< TheAncientGoat> Yes, I know that
20090218 20:09:37< TheAncientGoat> Which is why a lot of oss games are ugly
20090218 20:09:55< TheAncientGoat> And people say "If you don't like it, change it yourself"
20090218 20:09:56< Soliton> and i doubt there is a law that a coherent style naturally arises from majority vote decisions.
20090218 20:10:17< TheAncientGoat> The vote isn't the end all, though..
20090218 20:10:42< TheAncientGoat> The developers are still in full controll
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20090218 20:11:38< zookeeper> for example, currently we have a handful of core art devs. they know what they want the game to look like, and they can dish out assignments to potential contributors. then the contributor posts stuff he's making, he's given feedback by a pool of dozens of people, and the stuff is slowly hammered into shape. it just doesn't work so that people can check what needs doing from a list and then they can do it and submit the finished wor
20090218 20:11:41< Soliton> well, i don't see the big point of it then.
20090218 20:11:50< Soliton> "finished wor"
20090218 20:12:30< Soliton> well, probably just a k missing. :-)
20090218 20:12:42< TheAncientGoat> Remember too, that none of these votes are random, due to the profile system. Contribution rates and active-ness would play a part in vote weighting
20090218 20:13:15< TheAncientGoat> zookeeper: That isn't universal in OSS game projects though
20090218 20:13:29< zookeeper> i guess
20090218 20:13:53< zookeeper> but i doubt the reverse is very common either
20090218 20:14:19< Soliton> probably common for projects that don't get any new art. :->
20090218 20:14:31< TheAncientGoat> zookeeper: I think Wesnoth's methods are the most successful 
20090218 20:14:49< TheAncientGoat> But Wesnoth is an outlier in oss game development...
20090218 20:15:20< zookeeper> the pioneer!
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20090218 20:15:40< TheAncientGoat> Anyway, the Wesnoth system could completely be covered in a systematical way, as well
20090218 20:15:54< TheAncientGoat> The voting would be comments, the comments would be suggestions
20090218 20:16:29< zookeeper> sure, it could if those core art devs would want to do it that way
20090218 20:17:29< TheAncientGoat> Wesnoth is successful, I don't see it changing it's development methods
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20090218 20:26:11< TheAncientGoat> Wesnoth also has the advantage of a built in Map/mod tool, so contribution is most probably not very wanting
20090218 20:26:25< TheAncientGoat> So, that leaves us with community
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20090218 20:27:59< Soliton> well, what would be the idea there?
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20090218 20:30:09< zookeeper> one big forum for all games :>?
20090218 20:30:35< elias> heh
20090218 20:30:55< elias> the wesnoth forums already have too many posts for me to keep up with :P
20090218 20:31:00< TheAncientGoat> Essentially console-ish online functionality. Chat, game listing, game joining etc. 
20090218 20:31:30< Rrenys> like some flash game sites have?
20090218 20:31:40< TheAncientGoat> Pretty much, yep
20090218 20:31:45< TheAncientGoat> Whirled for example
20090218 20:32:21< TheAncientGoat> A huge forum would be.. messy
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20090218 20:33:47< Soliton> i'm guessing with "console-ish" you don't mean text consoles, right? :-P
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20090218 20:34:14< TheAncientGoat> Nono, game consoles.. Like Live, for example
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20090218 20:34:43< TheAncientGoat> But with the Games For Windows stigma, it would be a difficult task, I admit
20090218 20:34:44-!- Shadow_Master_ is now known as Shadow_Master
20090218 20:35:19< TheAncientGoat> Steam and Xfire are pretty successful though
20090218 20:37:12< Ivanovic> uhm, for multiplayer games there it the mp server
20090218 20:37:17< Ivanovic> it has a lobby for general chatting
20090218 20:37:24< Ivanovic> you can create some kind of buddy list
20090218 20:37:36< Ivanovic> you can even send messages to people who are currently in a game
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20090218 20:37:53< TheAncientGoat> Ivanovic: Yeah, but that's only for Wesnoth..
20090218 20:38:23< Ivanovic> so you want this for which game(s)?
20090218 20:38:31< Ivanovic> no way to have this for *all* games in one united lobby
20090218 20:38:43< TheAncientGoat> Pretty much any Open Source game
20090218 20:39:00< TheAncientGoat> Ivanovic: Game consoles handle it pretty well :)
20090218 20:39:18< Ivanovic> there the console manufacturer provides the service
20090218 20:39:32< Ivanovic> and *all* devs have to use their fixed API anyway
20090218 20:40:09< TheAncientGoat> Api integration can be done by anyone here though.. 
20090218 20:40:10< Ivanovic> and the console manufacturer provides the money for this online service (some (MS) charge money for it...)
20090218 20:40:23< Ivanovic> no way to agree on a common api
20090218 20:40:34< Ivanovic> and noone willing/able to pay for the server hosting
20090218 20:40:39< Ivanovic> since this is *expensive*
20090218 20:41:02< TheAncientGoat> P2P hosting system, or build it on existing networks
20090218 20:41:17< Ivanovic> you are free to provide an example implementation
20090218 20:41:35< Ivanovic> but especially p2p hosting can be *really* problematic, what if one host disconnects?
20090218 20:41:52< Ivanovic> half the net breaks down?
20090218 20:42:14< Ivanovic> this stuff is *really* non trival to do
20090218 20:42:21< TheAncientGoat> Jabber would work well, P2P could be problematic, but one of the devs who I'm working with is pretty darn good at it
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20090218 20:42:27< TheAncientGoat> I am no expert, I admit
20090218 20:42:28< Ivanovic> that is: feel free to create and implement a library like this
20090218 20:42:52< Ivanovic> there are *many* technical problems with such stuff you have to solve first before it will scale well enough to be usable
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20090218 20:44:50< TheAncientGoat> The one project I was involved in did do exactly this though, chat and file hosting over P2P
20090218 20:45:25-!- Shadow_Master_ is now known as Shadow_Master_4
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20090218 20:45:48< TheAncientGoat> Along with profiles and everything.. The only problem is, it was inside a game, and it's use would be limited
20090218 20:46:29< TheAncientGoat> Along with the fact that it didn't play nice behind firewalls, at all.
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20090218 21:07:53< TheAncientGoat> So, we've had a lot of discussion, but I don't quite feel that a conclusion has come about save for "erm, no".. Maybe a series of yes/no questions would provide clearer results?
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20090218 21:32:23< Soliton> p2p has per definition trouble with firewalls.
20090218 21:32:46-!- kane77 [n=kane@194.1.130.108] has quit ["Off to the real world.."]
20090218 21:33:18< TheAncientGoat> Yep. And now, trouble with isp's
20090218 21:33:24< Soliton> well, one conclusion was that a website dedicated to OSS games would be good if there exists none yet.
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20090218 21:37:28< TheAncientGoat> Soliton: GameJolt is making one
20090218 21:37:36< TheAncientGoat> At the moment it is only Freeware games
20090218 21:38:25< TheAncientGoat> But they're giving OSs games their own half, along with things like svn and other tools
20090218 21:39:47< Soliton> how to play svn?
20090218 21:40:16< Shadow_Master> svn ci &
20090218 21:40:22< Shadow_Master> killall -9 svn ; svn cleanup
20090218 21:40:40< Shadow_Master> it's my favorite game, specially when the connection gets stuck.
20090218 21:41:16< Soliton> that's cheating. no skill involved.
20090218 21:41:32< Shadow_Master> ;-(
20090218 21:42:11< TheAncientGoat> They're also planning a lot of other things, but I cannot really speak for them
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20090218 21:53:05< TheAncientGoat> Well, I'm off.. Here's a bit of a website if anyone still has interest http://p2posgamehosting.tiddlyspot.com/
20090218 21:54:06< TheAncientGoat> I'll most probably be back tomorrow to torment you all further :P
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20090218 22:25:42< [Relic]> Hello :)
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20090218 22:26:18< clooluss> hey hey. I have a question about campaigns
20090218 22:27:17< Soliton> sweet.
20090218 22:27:28< Shadow_Master> ask your question, pick your prize!
20090218 22:28:12< clooluss> I downloaded a campaign from the install add ons button. It downloads and says it is installed. But then it doesn't show up in the campaigns list. I have always had this problwm, back since version 1.10ish, on Windows and Linux. Always the same, so I figure it's something I#m doing wrong rather than Wesnoth itself.
20090218 22:28:28< Shadow_Master> it is probably not a campaign.
20090218 22:28:40< Shadow_Master> not all add-ons are campaigns.
20090218 22:29:01 * Soliton was so hoping for a campaign question. :-(
20090218 22:29:20< clooluss> Okay... they all look lke campaigns. What is a campaign that I can download?
20090218 22:29:42< clooluss> and if not campaigns, what are they?
20090218 22:29:51< Soliton> addons!
20090218 22:30:14< Shadow_Master> http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/List_of_Campaigns
20090218 22:30:29< Shadow_Master> the add-ons that are not single player campaigns are multiplayer map packs or Eras.
20090218 22:31:01< Shadow_Master> there are also single player scenarios, and rumor has it that some people have figured out how to make multiplayer campaigns. In any case, multiplayer stuff cannot be used except in multiplayer games.
20090218 22:31:02< clooluss> Ha! Campaigns! Thanks. I had completed al the built-in ones.
20090218 22:31:50< clooluss> aha... are there any add ons to use extr graphics in the map editor? I love playing with the map editor. And where can I upload my maps?
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20090218 22:34:02< Shadow_Master> only add-ons for 1.5.x are able to expose their custom terrains to the map editor in a useful way. Nonetheless, nobody can play a map using a campaign's custom terrains out of the original campaign, unless you write a custom add-on for that. But probably nobody is willing to show you how to do that (if they even know).
20090218 22:34:39< Shadow_Master> if you want to create add-ons, I suggest you read http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/Create first.
20090218 22:34:54< clooluss> OK, thanks for all the help.
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20090218 22:36:07< clooluss> buye
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20090218 22:36:23< Shadow_Master> BUY-E? that's a new one.
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20090218 23:15:29< Shadow_Master> I'm seeing units jumping around.
20090218 23:15:32< Shadow_Master> er...
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20090218 23:20:33< Rrenys> I'm seeing colors
20090218 23:20:37< Rrenys> they are pretty
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20090218 23:22:25< Shadow_Master> I see dead people.
20090218 23:23:03< Rrenys> colors > dead people
20090218 23:24:32< Rrenys> dead people will start to smell after a while, and are generally unpleasant, while colors are nice
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--- Log closed Thu Feb 19 00:00:34 2009