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20090222 02:15:25< [Relic]> Hello :)
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20090222 08:16:18< mnharris_> Hello people
20090222 08:16:22< mnharris_> Sometimes, I wonder about myself
20090222 08:23:35< zooko> Hm.  You know, it should be possible to make Wesnoth cheat-proof.
20090222 08:24:59< mnharris_> Yes, just don't let people play it!
20090222 08:25:27< zooko> That would work, too, but it should be possible to make it both playable *and* cheat-proof.
20090222 08:27:46< cjhopman> really? companies can't even make closed source games cheat-proof...
20090222 08:27:48< mnharris_> What type of cheating are you talking about? Rewriting the source and recompiling?
20090222 08:28:18< zooko> Yeah, I'm thinking of the kind of cheat-proof that works better with open source games than closed-source ones.
20090222 08:28:32< zooko> I'm thinking of crypto protocols for fair coin flips and secure commitment to private state.
20090222 08:28:41< zooko> Those two parts are bog standard.
20090222 08:28:59< zooko> The only part I'm not certain about is how to check whether the moves that they committed to are consistent with the states that they announced.
20090222 08:29:53< zooko> Oh, that's easy -- you just replay the game.
20090222 08:29:55< zooko> Yeah.  Cool.
20090222 08:30:00< zooko> No tricky thinking required.
20090222 08:30:53< mnharris_> I've never worried about cheating on Wesnoth...
20090222 08:31:26< mnharris_> I guess if I was in a tournament or not, I might
20090222 08:31:32< mnharris_> just don't make cheating against the AI impossible!
20090222 08:31:32< mnharris_> :)
20090222 08:31:54< zooko> How do you cheat against the AI?
20090222 08:31:57< cjhopman> here's one... with fog on, how do you determine zoc
20090222 08:32:11< zooko> cjhopman: yeah, that's the kind of problem.
20090222 08:32:30< zooko> The general solution is that each player has to send a cryptographic commitment to each move.
20090222 08:32:56< zooko> Then, either at the end of the game or (not sure about this part) at some earlier time, you can check whether all their moves would have resulted in this result.
20090222 08:33:06< zooko> Hm, yeah, I guess you might, in general have to wait til the end of the game.
20090222 08:33:39< zooko> Still, if this was implemented and on by default, and everyone knew that 100% of the time that you cheated, then this fact was discovered before your win was announced, this would presumably eliminate cheating.
20090222 08:34:17< zooko> Plus, it would be cool.
20090222 08:34:24< cjhopman> hold on... so you make the commitment to a move... my client has to be able to read that move to tell yours if it has to stop early, right?
20090222 08:34:42< cjhopman> but if i can read that move, then i can read all your moves
20090222 08:35:02< zooko> Your client can't read the moves until the end of the game.
20090222 08:36:33< cjhopman> well... basically my client shouldnt tell yours why my units are unless you can see them
20090222 08:37:00< cjhopman> how is that determined? ... if you tell me that you can see locations x,y,z that gives me info about your units
20090222 08:37:43< cjhopman> s/why my units/where my units
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20090222 08:39:10< zooko> Oh yeah, that's an interesting problem.
20090222 08:39:15< cjhopman> once you try to hide info it becomes very difficult
20090222 08:39:38< zooko> I actually talked about this on my blog a few years ago and some cryptographers posted solutions.
20090222 08:40:05< zooko> The *easy* way to do it is to have a trusted server who checks who should see who and tells you both.
20090222 08:40:10< cjhopman> yep
20090222 08:40:14< zooko> You can find out at the end if the server cheated, too.
20090222 08:40:23< zooko> Err.
20090222 08:40:35< zooko> You can find out if it told you something untrue
20090222 08:40:50< zooko> but you can't find out if it secretly told your opponent something they weren't supposed to know.
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20090222 08:42:32< mnharris> Is there an error guide somewhere?
20090222 08:43:27< zooko> http://zooko.com/log-2002.html#d2002-06-06-Centaurs_versus_Carrion_Crawlers
20090222 08:43:37< zooko> http://zooko.com/log-2002.html#d2002-06-07
20090222 08:45:50< mnharris> Like, what does "Unknown Scenario" mean?
20090222 08:46:20< mnharris> Other than the obvious
20090222 08:48:09< zooko> Hm, so it appears that back in 2002 I invented a crypto solution to this problem which turned out to be a fundamental concept in modern crypto -- "oblivious transfer".
20090222 08:48:21< zooko> It's nice that I have a blog so I can rediscover my own history.
20090222 08:48:49< mnharris> That is awesome
20090222 08:48:58< mnharris> I have a similar story!
20090222 08:49:02< mnharris> Do you read xkcd?
20090222 08:49:26< mnharris> They had a strip called "mobius strip fight", and I was like "AWESOME IDEA" but then I remembered I drew the same thing out myself
20090222 08:49:31< mnharris> only, mine was a story with words
20090222 08:49:41< mnharris> there is no love given to us pioneer geeks
20090222 08:51:35< zooko> Hee hee hee.
20090222 08:52:09< mnharris> My WML seems to be infested with Qelippoth
20090222 08:52:16< mnharris> there is no rules about what type of names maps can have, right?>
20090222 08:55:01< cjhopman> hm, its interesting zook.. but you are starting to convince me that it could be mostly done
20090222 08:56:27< mnharris> Okay, I am officially, officially going insane
20090222 08:57:16< mnharris> Can someone please look at my campaign .cfg file and tell me that I am not, like, hallucinating that it looks normal?
20090222 08:57:46< mnharris> Did I maybe put Estonian currency symbols in instead of square brackets
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20090222 09:22:09< zooko> How can you tell if there are any observers?
20090222 09:24:52< zookeeper> there's an eye icon in the top right corner if there are.
20090222 09:25:01< zookeeper> tooltip shows who
20090222 09:25:09< zooko> Thanks.
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20090222 09:29:12< mnharris> There is no reason why this shouldn't be working
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20090222 09:36:24< mnharris> http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m7702da53
20090222 09:36:30< mnharris> There isn't too many mistakes I can make in here
20090222 09:37:15< zookeeper> maybe the mistake isn't there.
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20090222 09:41:44< mnharris> Gyeah, I also don't know why it does that
20090222 09:41:52< mnharris> BUT!
20090222 09:43:50< mnharris> Anyone there?
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20090222 09:50:40< zookeeper> yes
20090222 09:51:29< zookeeper> but then again, i don't know what your problem is in the first place.
20090222 09:52:29< mnharris> Oh, well, when I start my campaign, it says "Goblin_Raid: Scenario not found"
20090222 09:52:51< zookeeper> that means the game doesn't know of a scenario with such an id.
20090222 09:53:02< mnharris> Yes
20090222 09:53:21< mnharris> Doesn't it also mean that the scenario has a problem, such as an unclosed side tag or something?
20090222 09:53:31< zookeeper> i guess it might
20090222 09:53:57< mnharris> IDs can include underscores, right?
20090222 09:54:01< mnharris> as can map names, right?
20090222 09:54:53< zookeeper> former yes, latter i don't know
20090222 09:55:01< zookeeper> oh, nevermind
20090222 09:55:04< zookeeper> of course map names can too
20090222 09:55:18< zookeeper> why don't you just pastebin the scenario?
20090222 09:56:09< mnharris> http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m2af6bdbf
20090222 09:57:14< mnharris> I have looked over every line in there, and I don't see what it could be. I've made lots of mistakes before
20090222 09:57:26< mnharris> like forgetting the underscore in mapdata...
20090222 09:57:28< mnharris> but I don't get this
20090222 09:57:30< zookeeper> yeah, can't see anything error-causing there
20090222 09:57:41< zookeeper> it's [endlevel] though, not [end_level]
20090222 09:58:50< mnharris> Unknown scenario: 'Goblin_Raid'
20090222 09:59:07< zookeeper> and what is the filename and part of that scenario file?
20090222 09:59:12< zookeeper> s/part/path
20090222 10:00:14< mnharris> ~/.wesnoth/data/campaigns/Northern_Cross/scenarios/Goblin_Raid
20090222 10:00:33< zookeeper> ...
20090222 10:00:41< zookeeper> ever heard of the .cfg extension?
20090222 10:00:53< mnharris> ZOMG
20090222 10:00:57< zookeeper> indeed.
20090222 10:01:01< mnharris> How could I have missed that?
20090222 10:01:12< zookeeper> that's something you'll have to ask yourself ;)
20090222 10:01:32< mnharris> Seriously! This is like, a big mistake, even for me
20090222 10:01:34< zookeeper> if you include a whole dir, the game just includes the .cfg files in it
20090222 10:01:38< mnharris> Well, a small mistake
20090222 10:01:46< mnharris> A small mistake that became big
20090222 10:01:49< zookeeper> you can of course individually include any files
20090222 10:01:53< zookeeper> yep
20090222 10:02:07< mnharris> You must think I am an idiot!
20090222 10:02:47< zookeeper> no comment
20090222 10:03:23< mnharris> The thing is, I have made working campaigns before
20090222 10:03:36< mnharris> and I spent the last few hours comparing them detail by detail to this
20090222 10:04:10< mnharris> wondering if I had done something along the lines of putting in a non-printing character in the wrong place, or something
20090222 10:04:21 * mnharris hangs his head in mortified shame
20090222 10:05:15< zookeeper> i bet you won't do that mistake again then ;)
20090222 10:05:17< mnharris> Isn't your title "WML Wizard"?
20090222 10:05:24< zookeeper> yes
20090222 10:05:27< mnharris> I should change mine to "WML Dunce"
20090222 10:05:31< mnharris> "WML Peasant"
20090222 10:05:44< mnharris> Okay,  I am going off to write my campaign
20090222 10:05:50< zookeeper> good luck ;)
20090222 10:05:51< mnharris> I will dedicate parts of it to you when it is done!
20090222 10:06:05< mnharris> Also, the guy who would not be anywhere as nice to me...ShadowKeeper
20090222 10:06:09< mnharris> Oh, I am Glowing Fish btw
20090222 10:06:24< zookeeper> ah, i didn't know that
20090222 10:06:58< mnharris> See, I am not that stupid! Just that I am.
20090222 10:07:00< mnharris> Anyway
20090222 10:07:02< mnharris> hopping off
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20090222 10:11:19< Ivanovic> moin
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20090222 14:39:16< cib0> Ape, are you there?
20090222 14:39:25< Ape> yeah
20090222 14:40:10< Ape> Want to join testing?
20090222 14:40:11< cib0> Ape, up for a MP campaign?
20090222 14:40:19< Ape> Already hosting
20090222 14:40:34< Ape> I was just starting with Anakonda
20090222 14:40:55< Ape> Take the new version: http://ape3000.com/hosted/uppi/uploads/Troubled_Times-22-2-15-35.tar.gz
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20090222 23:47:05-!- Shadow_Master [n=imorelle@unaffiliated/shadowmaster/x-275924] has quit ["be right back"]
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20090222 23:53:29< Ivanovic> n8
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--- Log closed Mon Feb 23 00:00:10 2009