--- Log opened Thu Mar 05 00:00:42 2009
20090305 00:01:08< Sapient> cya later, have fun.
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20090305 01:24:58< Shadow_Master> fendrin: what was the exact error message when trying to install IftU? I don't think you told me.
20090305 01:25:32< Shadow_Master> wesbot: seen silene
20090305 01:25:32< wesbot> Shadow_Master: The person with the nick silene last spoke 5h 8m ago.  3h 40m ago they left with the message: Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)
20090305 01:25:49< Shadow_Master> silene: now I'm getting this stuff for every installed add-on:
20090305 01:26:00< Shadow_Master> 20090304 21:25:36 error filesystem: Could not open '/home/shadowm/.wesnoth/data/campaigns/<The Correct Add-on Dir>/_info.cfg' for reading.
20090305 01:26:21< Shadow_Master> this is about 12 error messages. Add-on updates are probably broken since _info.cfg is inaccessible.
20090305 01:27:02< Shadow_Master> um, interesting. A single add-on's _info.cfg is still reachable
20090305 01:30:29 * Shadow_Master is puzzled. The "loading screen" when updating the cache after installing/downloading add-ons isn't appearing.
20090305 01:35:17< Shadow_Master> uh, the function that invokes the loadscreen stuff _is_ invoked too.
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20090305 01:38:32< alink> hi
20090305 01:39:39< Shadow_Master> it'd seem that it's related to r33126
20090305 01:40:10< alink> wesbot: log: 33126
20090305 01:40:21< alink> wesbot: log 33126
20090305 01:40:21< wesbot> soliton * r33126 : * Removed last binaryWML references by making the save_index gzip compressed. (We can still receive binaryWML via the network.)
20090305 01:40:24< wesbot> URL: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth?view=rev&rev=33126
20090305 01:40:57< fendrin> Shadow_Master: sorry, i can't reproduce it any more. deleted iftu from commandline. and downloaded new.
20090305 01:41:38< Shadow_Master> <.<
20090305 01:41:44< Shadow_Master> alink: I'm checking it.
20090305 01:42:08< alink> Shadow_Master: as you wish, i have no idea what this is about :-)
20090305 01:42:16< Shadow_Master> nope. it isn't that revision.
20090305 01:42:18< alink> was just checking if it was one of my commit 
20090305 01:45:50< Shadow_Master> it stopped working between version 1.5.10 and 1.5.11. um.
20090305 01:46:40< alink> btw i am often puzzled about this binaryWML killing, it's also used in cache right ? And that is a good thing because it's probably faster to parse than text with [tags] [/tags] etc...
20090305 01:49:02< Shadow_Master> cache uses plain gzipped text WML after Soliton's change.
20090305 01:49:08 * alink was remembering some talks about replacing binaryWML by gz compression
20090305 01:49:22< alink> ha
20090305 01:50:07< alink> indeed it does
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20090305 01:50:57< Shadow_Master> wesbot: log 32847
20090305 01:50:58< wesbot> ivanovic * r32847 : tagging 1.5.10, using r32845
20090305 01:50:58< wesbot> URL: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth?view=rev&rev=32847
20090305 01:50:58< alink> at least i didn't feel a speed difference here, so i am probably overestimate the cost of parsing text
20090305 01:51:21< Soliton> i didn't change anything about the cache.
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20090305 01:51:25< Shadow_Master> wesbot: log 33068
20090305 01:51:26< wesbot> esr * r33068 : Notice addition requested by Ivanovic.
20090305 01:51:26< wesbot> URL: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth?view=rev&rev=33068
20090305 01:51:44< alink> it's just that i was impressed by how the code of binaryWML look efficient
20090305 01:51:51< Shadow_Master> wesbot: log 33066
20090305 01:51:51< wesbot> ivanovic * r33066 : tagging 1.5.11-1.6beta3, using r33065
20090305 01:51:51< wesbot> URL: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth?view=rev&rev=33066
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20090305 01:52:48< alink> This cache change probably happened when i was away, sorry to talk about possibly old decision
20090305 01:53:36< Soliton> i guess disk reading time is probably more important than parsing time.
20090305 01:53:38< alink> at least in 1.4 cache use binaryWML
20090305 01:53:49< alink> Soliton: yeah make sense
20090305 01:53:56< Shadow_Master> disk reading seems to be more expensive on Win32 than Linux.
20090305 01:54:29< Shadow_Master> (another reason to abandon win32) :->
20090305 01:54:45< alink> we need more reasons ;p
20090305 01:54:51< alink> s/we/who
20090305 01:56:19< alink> mmmh funny more I listen english TV shows, more i do phonetic mistakes
20090305 01:56:46< alink> and since i had already a bad english... :-/
20090305 01:57:50< alink> + the fact that with all this english, my french gets rusty
20090305 01:58:46< alink> at least my c++ is improving :)
20090305 01:59:02 * Shadow_Master 's Spanish isn't as it used to be either.
20090305 02:02:04< alink> Soliton: the compatibility rule between RC, it's just any "UMC must work", or we must also watch about OOS and replay ?
20090305 02:02:05< Shadow_Master> alink: I'm suspecting it can be one of your commits :->
20090305 02:02:38< alink> Shadow_Master: seriously? what bug are you chasing ?
20090305 02:03:17< Shadow_Master> 21:32  * Shadow_Master is puzzled. The "loading screen" when updating the cache after installing/downloading add-ons isn't appearing.
20090305 02:03:23< Shadow_Master> 21:47 <Shadow_Master> it stopped working between version 1.5.10 and 1.5.11. um.
20090305 02:03:37< alink> or Ivanovic, same question ^ (compatibility rule between RC)
20090305 02:04:08< Soliton> alink: we certainly have to watch out for OOS.
20090305 02:04:37< alink> Soliton: betwwen an user using RC1 and an other using RC2 ?
20090305 02:04:43< Shadow_Master> I revert a commit affecting sdl_utils.hpp and all the AIs are being rebuilt. Sweet.
20090305 02:04:54< Soliton> alink: yes, any 1.6 compatible version.
20090305 02:05:12< alink> Shadow_Master: i probably didn't commit anything in 1.5.10
20090305 02:05:24< alink> Soliton: ok
20090305 02:05:28< Shadow_Master> wesbot: log 32970
20090305 02:05:28< wesbot> alink * r32970 : Mainly revert r32931 (problem with fake screen) but keep the small optimization
20090305 02:05:31< wesbot> URL: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth?view=rev&rev=32970
20090305 02:05:34< Shadow_Master> wesbot: log 32931
20090305 02:05:35< wesbot> alink * r32931 : Add a new function get_screen_portion slightly better than get_surface_portion
20090305 02:05:38< wesbot> URL: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth?view=rev&rev=32931
20090305 02:05:48< Shadow_Master> both are in the 1.5.10..1.5.11 interval, which is what I'm checking.
20090305 02:06:10< alink> ah yes that little ones :)
20090305 02:06:26 * alink doesn't see the link with loadscreen
20090305 02:07:17< alink> but after r32970, the change was minimal
20090305 02:07:25< Shadow_Master> git can't revert r32931 without creating conflicts. :-/
20090305 02:08:52< alink> Soliton: and if it's about sighted event, which AFAIK are almost never used in MP ?
20090305 02:10:57< alink> sighted event triggered in very specific place and during a very specific time window
20090305 02:12:57< Soliton> alink: that might not be a problem then. you could probably aks Sapient about that.
20090305 02:13:29< Shadow_Master> alink: besides that I cannot see anything in that period that could possibly have affected the loadscreen behavior
20090305 02:13:33< alink> Then I know his response: "Sighted event are bad" :-)
20090305 02:13:52< Shadow_Master> I'll examine those again when I really feel like solving conflicts by hand.
20090305 02:14:56< alink> Soliton: it's about an 1.4 bug that i recently noticed, the fog is not always directly updated after a slow attack, but it is updated after other action
20090305 02:15:03< Shadow_Master> _perhaps_ dfranke's Python removal accidentally deleted something in config_cache.cpp
20090305 02:15:22< Shadow_Master> the diff is enormous and... I'm lazy atm.
20090305 02:16:11< Soliton> git diff src/config_cache.cpp
20090305 02:16:17< alink> So in theory, you may have some small fog difference between user during a short time and in a small area (the difference between vision with slow or not)
20090305 02:16:28< Soliton> alink: sounds ok to me.
20090305 02:17:00< Shadow_Master> you always find a way to convince me to invest my time in mainline.
20090305 02:17:17< alink> and thus if the sighted event occur there and during that short time and modify the game state (doing other thing than just showing a dialog)
20090305 02:17:32< alink> so it's pretty remote risk of OOS :)
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20090305 02:17:54< alink> Soliton: ok so i will start to my fix now and not wait 1.7
20090305 02:18:17< Shadow_Master> unm, it seems to be definitively down to r32931 and r32970
20090305 02:19:58< Shadow_Master> okay. no. it isn't either. i fail.
20090305 02:20:02< alink> Shadow_Master: the function that i slightly changed is not used in 1.5.10 is not used by loadscreen
20090305 02:20:09< Shadow_Master> yes, noticed.
20090305 02:20:42< Shadow_Master> I have diff'd every file related to that screen (src/config_cache.cpp, src/game.cpp, src/loadscreen.cpp) and can't find anything that could've broken it.
20090305 02:21:28< Shadow_Master> (and src/serialization/*)
20090305 02:22:07< alink> maybe the bug depend of the add-on or the update, and thus making your test-case unreliable ?
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20090305 02:22:26< Shadow_Master> I tried with exactly the same add-on in 1.5.10 and 1.5.11 to get to the tag range
20090305 02:23:06< alink> with the obvious clear the cache etc...
20090305 02:23:44 * Shadow_Master rm -rf's 880 MB
20090305 02:23:49< alink> and checking that the addon is correctly downloaded or updated 
20090305 02:24:20 * alink stating basic errors that he often does ;)
20090305 02:24:32< Shadow_Master> alink: the stderr indicates that the cache is indeed updated.
20090305 02:25:25< alink> so if i understand, all works fine, you just want to see a loadscreen where you were used to have one 
20090305 02:25:27< Shadow_Master> that is: it repeats the same number of stupid errors in HEAD.
20090305 02:25:55< Shadow_Master> "all works fine" apparently. Second statement is correct.
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20090305 02:27:20< Shadow_Master> cd ../wesnoth-1.5.10
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20090305 03:31:05< Truper> hi - i'm hoping somebody can help me with connecting to the mp server
20090305 03:31:54< Truper> i've just downloaded the latest 1.5, and it seems it doesn't recognize my DSL connection
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20090305 03:37:31< Soliton> what does that mean?
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20090305 03:38:09< Truper> it means i instantly get a could not connect to server message
20090305 03:38:48< Soliton> so how do you connect to the internet?
20090305 03:38:57< Truper> and i have this problem with other games - some come with an auto-update function
20090305 03:39:20< Truper> and those don't recognize they are connecterd to the net either
20090305 03:39:43< Truper> i connect via a dsl line plugged into an ethernet port
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20090305 03:40:56< Soliton> can you ping wesnoth.org?
20090305 03:41:15< Truper> how would i do that?
20090305 03:41:55< Soliton> with the command "ping wesnoth.org".
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20090305 03:42:27< Truper> using winxp - under "run"?
20090305 03:43:03< Truper> transmit failed, error code 65
20090305 03:43:04< Soliton> i guess.
20090305 03:43:30< Soliton> so uh, what application can actually connect to the internet?
20090305 03:44:00< Truper> mirc, internet explorer, netscape
20090305 03:44:33< Soliton> and you didn't change any setting with them?
20090305 03:44:39< Truper> nope
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20090305 03:45:11< Soliton> what does ipconfig say?
20090305 03:46:23< Truper> not sure where to find that
20090305 03:47:11< Soliton> it's command you run same as ping.
20090305 03:47:17< Truper> ok
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20090305 03:47:53< Truper> i get a blank window that closes instantly
20090305 03:49:43< Soliton> run winipcfg instead.
20090305 03:49:55< Truper> k
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20090305 03:50:28< Truper> windows cannot find winipcfg
20090305 03:51:13< Soliton> ok, guess that is the end of my windows knowledge.
20090305 03:51:28< Truper> thanks for trying :)
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20090305 03:51:34< Soliton> but there is something weird about your network setup when basic things like ping don't work.
20090305 03:51:50< happygrue> Truper: what are you trying to do?
20090305 03:52:07< happygrue> I rememebr messing with winipcfg to do something a while back
20090305 03:52:11< Truper> agree - and i called the isp, and explained this to them, and they say it isn't thier problem
20090305 03:52:18< happygrue> but I think they moved/changed in in XP and beyond?
20090305 03:52:29< Truper> i'm trying to connect to the mp server
20090305 03:53:15< Truper> i think there is something lacking in the software that came with my dsl connection
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20090305 03:53:34< happygrue> so a new connection then?
20090305 03:54:19< Truper> problem is i had hell the first time getting connected to thier network
20090305 03:54:43< Truper> and i'm using att&t - hardly fly-by-night
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20090305 03:55:01< Soliton> there are some hits on the ping error message on google.
20090305 03:55:22< Truper> how did u google it?
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20090305 03:55:33< Truper> ipconfig error 65?
20090305 03:55:36< Soliton> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/316414
20090305 03:55:41< Truper> thanks
20090305 03:55:46< Soliton> "transmit failed, error code 65"
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20090305 03:56:31< Soliton> looks like zonealarm is the problem.
20090305 03:56:57< Truper> i do have it on the comp, but have it disabled...
20090305 03:57:33< Truper> but thank you very much - i should be able to solve things from here
20090305 03:57:42< Soliton> no problem.
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20090305 04:01:35< Truper> ok - i think i'll be fine after a reboot - thanks again
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20090305 04:10:44< alink> ok the good news is that sighted event altering game state was never replay/OOS safe in 1.4 and even 1.5 (until recently when it improved a little)
20090305 04:11:18< alink> so it will be OOS safe to fix this little fog/slow bug
20090305 04:12:04< alink> the bad news is that i found disturbing things in replay code with fog
20090305 04:12:24< alink> but maybe a rare problem
20090305 04:13:03< alink> anyway, too tired now and hard to image the special cases when it may happens, I will this tomorow
20090305 04:13:06< alink> good night
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20090305 05:20:30< [Relic]> Hello :)
20090305 05:34:45< CIA-70> jetryl * r33347 /trunk/data/core/images/units/dwarves/lord-attack.png: Removed unused dwarven lord image.
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20090305 06:34:25< silene> Shadow_master: I didn't change this part of the code; I just set a higher log-level message when there is a "physical" issue while opening a file (e.g. wrong permissions); so the load was already failing before my patchs, but now it's visible
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20090305 06:35:01< silene> wesbot: seen Shadow_master
20090305 06:35:01< wesbot> silene: The person with the nick Shadow_Master last spoke 4h 6m ago.  4h 4m ago was here and on the channels #wesnoth and #wesnoth-umc-dev with the message: "All works fine? wtf."
20090305 06:37:47< Soliton> silene: how do dir seperators work now? are all of them allowed and converted to '/' or do they still work platform dependent?
20090305 06:38:54< silene> they are still platform-dependent, I didn't change this behavior
20090305 06:40:24< Soliton> ok, how about changing that then?
20090305 06:48:35< silene> i'm not sure it's a job for the game; what about wmllint?
20090305 06:50:19< Soliton> if we'd run wmllint automatically on the addon server that might be good enough but i don't really see that happening.
20090305 06:50:44< silene> anyway, whatever the decision, i won't be able to implement it, since i'm off till next monday (or perhaps even later if all goes well)
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20090305 07:01:47< CIA-70> jetryl * r33348 /trunk/data/core/ (2 files in 2 dirs): Removed fighter-defend.png in favor of the identical fighter-defend-1.png
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20090305 08:09:48< CIA-70> jetryl * r33349 /trunk/data/core/images/units/dwarves/ (190 files): Standardized shadows on the dwarves.
20090305 08:11:50< CIA-70> soliton * r33350 /trunk/src/server/server.cpp: log registration status on login
20090305 08:11:59< CIA-70> soliton * r33351 /trunk/po/wesnoth/de.po: add a missing space and tweak a string to not break the UI
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20090305 09:55:12< Ivanovic> moin
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20090305 10:06:23< Jetrel> Ivanovic:  hey, I was talking with dave, and I was wondering if I could get some ftp-only space on wesnoth.org
20090305 10:06:42< Jetrel> I don't need to execute anything, just to store some images for use on the wiki.
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20090305 10:07:52< Ivanovic> Jetrel: ask Rhonda
20090305 10:08:06< Ivanovic> he knows the server stuff best and how to set things up to accomplish this
20090305 10:08:37< Jetrel> kay
20090305 10:08:56< Jetrel> Rhonda:  hey, I was talking with dave, and I was wondering if I could get some ftp-only space on wesnoth.org.   I don't need to execute anything, just to store some images for use on the wiki.
20090305 10:09:07-!- zookeeper [n=l@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090305 10:09:19< CIA-70> zookeeper * r33353 /website/start/1.6/template.html: Updated release announcement with some missing notable items, removed the mention of cave path and moved the mention of new core units a bit.
20090305 10:09:25< CIA-70> soliton * r33352 /trunk/src/addon_management.cpp: removed obsolete code
20090305 10:09:26< CIA-70> soliton * r33354 /trunk/doc/man/wesnoth.6: remove python stuff from the man page
20090305 10:10:58< CIA-70> ivanovic * r33355 /trunk/ (25 files in 15 dirs): updated Chinese (Simplified), Hungarian and Turkish translation
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20090305 10:29:26< Rhonda> eeeks, ftp
20090305 10:29:32< Rhonda> Jetrel: Can it be sft?
20090305 10:29:32< Jetrel> Rhonda:  heya
20090305 10:29:33< Rhonda> sftü
20090305 10:29:40< Rhonda> bleah, sftp :)
20090305 10:29:43< Jetrel> Rhonda:  whatever works for you
20090305 10:32:08< Rhonda> Some more time works for me right now, sorry.
20090305 10:32:16< Jetrel> Rhonda:  really minimal needs here, I just wanted to throw some images on there instead of using other hosting, because using other hosting for what's basically our website really doesn't make sense.
20090305 10:32:30< Jetrel> Rhonda:  and yeah, I'm in no hurry at all.
20090305 10:32:46< Jetrel> I can wait days/weeks for this.
20090305 10:33:19 * loonycyborg remembers Jetrel posting wesnoth images on allacrost's site
20090305 10:33:25< Jetrel> Yes.
20090305 10:33:33< Jetrel> That's what I'm trying to avoid.
20090305 10:34:42< loonycyborg> http://imagebin.org/ <- You can also consider that :P
20090305 10:34:42< Jetrel> I'm fine with using the allacrost hosting (which is the only webspace I have) for stuff I like to people in instant-messaging (like irc or aim), but I'm not cool with it being linked to by a page, because 1] the hit on allacrost's bandwidth wouldn't be cool - tyler is paying for that out of pocket, and 2]
20090305 10:35:40< Jetrel> I have a tacit "file management" strategy for the ftp space that I'm free to delete/rearrange stuff whenever because it doesn't have any dependencies.
20090305 10:36:03< loonycyborg> Though it may not work for you since imagebin has caps on image size..
20090305 10:36:08< Jetrel> Er, because it being arranged a certain way isn't a dependency for some other site.
20090305 10:36:23< Jetrel> Means I have less to remember in my poor, much-abused noggin.
20090305 10:37:18< Jetrel> loonycyborg:  yeah, it would just be, if you'll forgive the term, loony, to host something on imagebin that's a more or less permanent part of wesnoth's website.
20090305 10:37:39< CIA-70> ivanovic * r33356 /trunk/ (207 files in 17 dirs): 
20090305 10:37:39< CIA-70> pot-update (no new/altered strings)
20090305 10:37:39< CIA-70> generated doc files
20090305 10:38:41< loonycyborg> But it'll work nicely for non-permanent stuff for exchange through irc/aim :)
20090305 10:39:08< Jetrel> loonycyborg:  allacrost ftp works for me now.
20090305 10:39:26< Jetrel> I basically just don't feel comfortable using imagebin for some reason.  Dunno why.
20090305 10:40:13< Ivanovic> Jetrel: short question: what is the status of the new forest terrain stuff?
20090305 10:40:22< Ivanovic> is it completely done, or is something still missing?
20090305 10:40:29< Jetrel> uhm, afaik, I believe it's completely done.
20090305 10:40:48< Ivanovic> (that is i want to have 1.6 out on march 15th
20090305 10:41:27< Jetrel> zookeeper may want some additional variants of certain tree types, but IMO it's in a perfectly satisfactory state to my eyes.
20090305 10:41:51< Jetrel> Ivanovic:  So I don't think it's a concern for the release in any way.
20090305 10:42:10< Ivanovic> okay
20090305 10:42:37< Jetrel> Ivanovic:  the two things I want to finish before the release are:  1] I want to strip the transparency from the last 3 portraits for UTBS (eloh normal and angry, and the troll).
20090305 10:43:18< Jetrel> And 2] I want to finish base frames for the 4 remaining mermaids, which I think I can probably do in about a night or so of work.
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20090305 10:43:27< Ivanovic> sounds good to me
20090305 10:43:58< Jetrel> Also, and this was tasked to Shadow_Master, I wanted to graft the new wings/animation onto the riderless gryphon.
20090305 10:44:10< Jetrel> I believe he may have already completed that, I'm not sure.
20090305 10:44:20< Ivanovic> Jetrel: you probably saw this thread, right? http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=24375&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
20090305 10:44:29< Ivanovic> personally i also loved those images, they were looking great
20090305 10:45:19< Ivanovic> (that is i would really prever to have some "high resolution png images" for the main menu to not only display the good old map there
20090305 10:45:30< Jetrel> Ivanovic:  yeah, I liked them a lot too, but I'll follow her orders on this.
20090305 10:45:48< Jetrel> Personally I kinda hate the map.  It's way too noisy.
20090305 10:46:00< Ivanovic> :)
20090305 10:46:19< Jetrel> I mean, the map looks good for map scenes in the game, but on the title screen it's a little too noisy for a background.
20090305 10:46:24< Ivanovic> maybe you can persuade her to make those image "big and nice" so that she will enjoy them in the main menu, too?
20090305 10:46:45< Ivanovic> (IMO the style of those images was perfect, too)
20090305 10:46:49< Jetrel> Yeah.
20090305 10:52:57< Ivanovic> time to have a shower and wake up...
20090305 10:53:08< Jetrel> yeah, time for me to go to sleep.
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20090305 11:49:42< CIA-70> fendrin * r33357 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/ (4 files in 2 dirs): LoW 2,3: Balancing changes.
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20090305 12:21:56< Shadow_Master> hi
20090305 12:22:40< loonycyborg> hello
20090305 12:24:14< Shadow_Master> is .wesnoth/preferences readable by group/other users by ddefault?
20090305 12:25:43< Soliton> depends on your umask.
20090305 12:26:32< Soliton> would be good to explicitely change that to only user accessible though.
20090305 12:27:03< Shadow_Master> yup.
20090305 12:28:15 * Soliton takes a step back.
20090305 12:28:24< Soliton> looks like we got a volunteer!
20090305 12:30:06< loonycyborg> chmod(2) :)
20090305 12:30:09< Shadow_Master> quitter.
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20090305 12:41:54< Shadow_Master> right, the IOStream interface in the STL doesn't seem to provide a way to specify the access mask for newly created files
20090305 12:42:27< Ivanovic> what about the IOStream interface in boost?
20090305 12:44:05< loonycyborg> Shadow_Master: You just need to chmod one file. I have no idea why you want to bother with iostreams and access masks.
20090305 12:45:56< Shadow_Master> I thought I could create a file and set its initial access mask á là open()
20090305 12:46:05< Shadow_Master> s.thought.wanted.
20090305 12:46:48< Shadow_Master> mkdir() actually. where did I get the idea that open() did such a thing?
20090305 12:46:53< loonycyborg> I don't think that boost's iostreams support it either, since it aims to be cross-platform.
20090305 12:50:44< zookeeper> ai.cpp:1910 - if the comment is accurate and the AI actually ignores enemy villages when thinking about how many scouts to take for village grabbing, then that sounds like it should change.
20090305 12:51:05< zookeeper> especially since the use of starting villages is now very common
20090305 12:51:43< zookeeper> it should be better to consider both neutral and enemy villages, but not allied ones
20090305 12:53:25< zookeeper> also, could someone check that if at line 1907 and tell whether that means that the AI ignores scouts_per_village=0 and recruits initial scouts normally if there happens to be a scout in the recruitment_pattern?
20090305 12:53:34< Shadow_Master> who expanded the ampersand in the "Code & WML contributor" forum group title?
20090305 12:54:07< Shadow_Master> now it wraps into two lines in the topic view.
20090305 12:54:40< Shadow_Master> Turuk ?
20090305 12:55:54< zookeeper> ah, nevermind, i presume line 1942 means that scouts_per_village=0 is still obeyed
20090305 12:56:15 * zookeeper should just use the ai log domain
20090305 13:00:19< zookeeper> how do i do that?
20090305 13:01:08< zookeeper> i can't find the info anywhere. at least i couldn't figure it out from the man page.
20090305 13:01:35< zookeeper> (it looked like it should be --log-level=ai, but that doesn't work)
20090305 13:01:45< Shadow_Master> --log-info=ai or --log-debug=ai depending on your preference of verbosity
20090305 13:02:16< zookeeper> err, right.
20090305 13:02:40< Shadow_Master> info (underlined) is a placeholder for one of error , warning, info or debug
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20090305 13:06:41< zookeeper> ok so which one do i want if i want to see those messages?
20090305 13:06:46< zookeeper> either?
20090305 13:06:59< zookeeper> or, wait
20090305 13:07:07< zookeeper> nevermind.
20090305 13:12:31< zookeeper> when considering combat effectiveness of recruits, the AI doesn't consider the relative _cost_ of units at all? that's what it looks like from the output i'm reading..
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20090305 13:28:02< zookeeper> which one does LOG_AI correspond to?
20090305 13:28:45< Soliton> --log-info=ai?
20090305 13:30:11< zookeeper> that's what i used, but some LOG_AIs i saw never appeared in the output...eh
20090305 13:30:31< zookeeper> probably because the message has a silly underscore and i searched for one with a space -.-
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20090305 13:59:09< Turuk> Shadow_Master, I did not touch the title for Code & WML Contributor
20090305 14:02:37< Turuk> I put the ampersand back, it still does the same
20090305 14:02:46< Turuk> I have no idea what you are talking about in topic view, it's on one line for me
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20090305 14:49:20< zookeeper> wtf is the person who wrote the description smoking? http://www.happypenguin.org/show?Rocks%20%27n%27%20Diamonds
20090305 14:49:31< zookeeper> "with high quality graphics"?
20090305 14:49:56< zookeeper> all the screenshots show ridiculous graphics
20090305 14:50:55-!- alink [n=alink@wesnoth/developer/alink] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090305 14:54:07< loonycyborg> Graphics indeed have good quality for a pure X11 app :P
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20090305 15:10:33< CIA-70> alink * r33358 /trunk/src/font.cpp: 
20090305 15:10:33< CIA-70> Fix (IMHO) bug #12938: In-game MP chat is ugly in 1.5.x
20090305 15:10:33< CIA-70> Use an alpha boost of 1.13 instead of 2.0 to compensate the darkening of the
20090305 15:10:33< CIA-70> anti-aliased part. Feel free to tweak it more, if you still notice a difference
20090305 15:10:33< CIA-70> with 1.4 chat
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20090305 15:29:30< happygrue> Soliton: possible problem at units.wesnoth.org:  the mermaid initiate is missing (along with one branch of that tree)
20090305 15:29:42< happygrue> something to do with the new graphics perhaps?
20090305 15:30:08< happygrue> hehe, nm
20090305 15:30:15< happygrue> fixed in trunk 
20090305 15:30:25 * happygrue kicks himself
20090305 15:33:51< happygrue> Soliton: one other thing that I was noticing was that you can't tell that gobos get nonstandard traits from looking at units.wesnoth.org - not sure how much a problem that is.
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20090305 15:40:17< Soliton> happygrue: well, you can't tell anywhere what traits units get. would be a nice addition though, yes.
20090305 15:42:02< happygrue> it would be useful for some units I guess.  UD, noting that dwarfs can get healthy, fearless trolls, etc.
20090305 15:43:05< happygrue> useful -> "not that important, but nice"  ;)
20090305 15:43:43< happygrue> I think units.wesnoth.org is really great.  :)
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20090305 16:04:22< Shadow_Master> Turuk: it doesn't do it anymore here, thanks.
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20090305 19:51:31< alink> I just filled a annoying blocker with a lot of blabla (bug #13118 about a risk of OOS)
20090305 19:52:37< alink> I assigned it to YogiHH but anyone knowing a little replay code may be interested
20090305 19:52:47< alink> wesbot: bug 13118
20090305 19:52:48< wesbot> Bug #13118  Assigned to: Jörg Hinrichs <jhinrichs>  Status: None  Priority: 7 - High
20090305 19:52:51< wesbot> Summary: Risk of OOS with hidden units
20090305 19:52:54< wesbot> Original submission: It's mainly pathfinding difference between clients.
20090305 19:52:57< wesbot> t first, I think that we must revert r32669
20090305 19:53:00< wesbot> URL: https://gna.org/bugs/?13118
20090305 19:54:06< alink> but basically, I fear that fix it cleanly will break compatibility with RC1 :-(
20090305 19:54:32< alink> or maybe just full-compatibility, depend of the fix
20090305 19:59:27< alink> mmh the last commit of YogiHH was 15 days ago, i hope he's around these days
20090305 20:00:40< Ivanovic> alink: hmm, i don't understand your bugreport
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20090305 20:00:57< Ivanovic> "This old system is not safe because, any difference between two clients could cause different pathfinding results."
20090305 20:00:58< Ivanovic> correct
20090305 20:01:06< Ivanovic> "Which is mainly a problem when the receiver solution pass near an ambushed unit, but it's also less good for the gameplay, because you have false assumptions on which hexes your opponent know to be ambush-safe or the fog he has cleared. "
20090305 20:01:08< Ivanovic> incorrect
20090305 20:01:22< Ivanovic> since only moves are transmitted, that were possible from the game point of view
20090305 20:01:45< Ivanovic> so if an ambush was triggered, it will be triggered, too
20090305 20:02:16< alink> yes but if the sender doesn't trigger the ambush (doesn't pass near it)
20090305 20:02:17< Ivanovic> since the calculations should provide exactly the same path to the end point of the movement
20090305 20:02:32< Ivanovic> then there will be no trigger on the receiver either, which is correct
20090305 20:02:33< alink> the receiver may still see the unit pass near his ambushed unit
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20090305 20:02:53< Ivanovic> uhm, then it is a bug in pathfinding itself
20090305 20:03:01< Ivanovic> it should always produce exactly the same path
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20090305 20:03:09< alink> Not really it's more how we transmit move data
20090305 20:03:26< Ivanovic> really?
20090305 20:03:50< Ivanovic> do do transmit "start of move, end of move" and the game is to calculate the "shortest possible path" between the two, correct=
20090305 20:03:57< Ivanovic> s/=/?
20090305 20:04:51< alink> yes but localy the pathfinding may search something else, e.g. a longer move, or it can have different local info about fog etc 
20090305 20:05:00< Lastmerlin> hi :)
20090305 20:05:10< alink> hi Lastmerlin
20090305 20:05:16< Lastmerlin> are non-wesnoth but game-developement questions allowed ?
20090305 20:05:31< alink> that part about false ambush didn't triggered OOS in 1.4, but does in RC1 since r32669
20090305 20:06:08< Lastmerlin> i looked the wesnoth source and thought that you might know what I need
20090305 20:06:10< Ivanovic> uhm, the pathfinding should not find a longer path, since always the shortest is used, right?
20090305 20:06:30< alink> Ivanovic: btw it's not intuitive but on a grid, there is always several "shortest possible paths"
20090305 20:06:43< Ivanovic> so the other path could only be of same length
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20090305 20:07:07< alink> Ivanovic: i am talking about multi-turn moves, we ask them to the pathfinding, but only send 1-turn move
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20090305 20:07:37< alink> send by network i mean
20090305 20:07:38< Ivanovic> alink: this sounds like a bad idea to me
20090305 20:08:02< Ivanovic> that is: does it not make sense to only send the "change of the current turn" and is that not what we are doing?
20090305 20:08:20< Lastmerlin> hmm as you have not said *no* I will just ask ^^
20090305 20:08:47< Ivanovic> i don't understand how it is possible to transmit a "one turn change" with a multi turn move
20090305 20:09:13< Lastmerlin> topic is translation - I saw that translation for different campaigns and general translation etc are in seperated *.po files (what is a good idea of course)
20090305 20:09:17< alink> Ivanovic: because we only transmit what unit do, no what they plan to do
20090305 20:09:44< Lastmerlin> as i have understood the textdomain /bindtextdomain command you can only have one of these in use
20090305 20:09:45< Ivanovic> alink: yeah, so in the stuff we transmit, what the unit has done in the players turn
20090305 20:09:49< alink> Ivanovic: the multi-turn path will change anyway, since other enemies will get on its way 
20090305 20:10:21< Ivanovic> alink: but do we really send "multi turn paths" over network, since those are only a gui thing anyway
20090305 20:10:24< Lastmerlin> but at least the *general translations (gui elements etc) and the currently active campaign have to be use simultaneously - how do you do that ?
20090305 20:11:07< alink> Ivanovic: no we don't, but we ask them localy on pathfinding, but not ask them on the receiver pathfinding
20090305 20:11:39< alink> Ivanovic: but this multi-turn is only a part of the problem, other things may change the pathfinding results
20090305 20:12:15< Ivanovic> alink: so you say that we can end with a completely different path if we a) have one calculated directly for the whole way and move and b) if we only transmit "this is start and this is end of current", right?
20090305 20:12:17< alink> Lastmerlin: i am not familiar with that, but i believe that the answer is hidden in t_string.cpp
20090305 20:13:07< fendrin> Ivanovic: ai is broken. https://gna.org/bugs/?13120
20090305 20:13:40< Ivanovic> from the concept of pathfinding it should be no difference if you have it "calculate all the path from A to B" and end with "okay, we move to C this turn and will move to D next one and then E before reaching B"
20090305 20:13:52< Ivanovic> to "okay, lets move from A to C this turn"
20090305 20:13:57< alink> Ivanovic: yes i will explain it how you can see it (but fixing this will not fix all the problem)
20090305 20:14:56< alink> move the mouse to get a muti-turn move, don't click, but then move the mouse on the first step of the path where the unit will end his turn
20090305 20:15:03< Ivanovic> each of the "subways" should (in theory) be of the same lenght and "possible" for the player
20090305 20:15:14< alink> sometimes you will see that the first part is different
20090305 20:15:51< Ivanovic> okay, this is a fault in our pathfinding then, since it should work the same way all the time
20090305 20:16:07< alink> Ivanovic: all same lenght, not all same path. Again on a grid, there is several shortest paths, it's a bit arbitrary which one you take
20090305 20:16:19< Ivanovic> yes, there are several shortest paths
20090305 20:16:22< Lastmerlin> can you tell me who the translation wizard is - then i will ask him
20090305 20:16:26< Ivanovic> but the way the path is calculated should be identical
20090305 20:16:42< Ivanovic> Lastmerlin: we have noone left who knows the c++ implementation of those things
20090305 20:16:54< Lastmerlin> btw - sry but you code I discover once more that your code could use more comments ^^
20090305 20:17:16< Ivanovic> feel free to provide patches that add comments
20090305 20:17:20< Ivanovic> we will gladly apply them
20090305 20:17:21< Lastmerlin> means the coder who made this left 
20090305 20:17:21< alink> Ivanovic: no since we don't ask the same things to the function, different result are expected (and wanted in some cases)
20090305 20:17:22< Ivanovic> ;)
20090305 20:17:56< Lastmerlin> well thats a rekursive problem - i need comments to understand the code, but I have to understand the code to add useful comments ;)
20090305 20:18:46< Ivanovic> alink: so is it really possible to have the game calculate on my side that the player will have walked into an ambush, which ended his move there instead of moving on?
20090305 20:19:34< Ivanovic> that is: would some "crude hack" around this in replay mode not fix it, as in "you get to know, that it moved tho this location, just do so, too, and do not stop!"
20090305 20:19:52< Ivanovic> or will this result in fun with the event triggering?
20090305 20:19:56< alink> I think so, but i didn't reproduce it and the risk may be low
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20090305 20:20:19< Ivanovic> short guess is that the risk for it to happen in mp games is rather low
20090305 20:20:22< alink> at least IIRC i could reproduce a similar visual difference in 1.4
20090305 20:20:48< Ivanovic> since you normally only do multi hex moves in areas where you are far from the enemy, not when you know that enemy troops are close by
20090305 20:21:41< alink> Like i said I believe that multi-turn path is only part of the problem, other things may affect the pathfinding
20090305 20:21:48< Soliton> once we have the multipath we could just recalculate the first step?
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20090305 20:22:12< alink> It's why i suggested to transmit the path not just source and destination
20090305 20:22:39< Soliton> that might be better, yeah.
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20090305 20:24:07< alink> I suspect also problem with AI (which sometimes use a different pathfinding algo)
20090305 20:25:13< alink> and other things, basicaly requiring same pathfinding results, assume permanent full sync of all sides
20090305 20:26:05< alink> on all aspects even if not important for the receiver
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20090305 20:30:13< Lastmerlin> hmm cann someone explain me the structure of these translable strings - it looks to me as a mix of transtable and not translable parts seperated by some separator bytes
20090305 20:30:15< Soliton> fendrin: so why does side 4 use the NO_SCOUT macro?
20090305 20:30:24< Lastmerlin> but this code looks really scary :(
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20090305 20:32:14< Ivanovic> Lastmerlin: hehe, there is some stuff, that is "special"
20090305 20:32:21< Ivanovic> we got some way to add comments in strings
20090305 20:32:35< Lastmerlin> this already leads to my second question: often you have some numbers/strings inside some translatable strings that will inserted at runtime
20090305 20:32:50< Ivanovic> everything up to ^ (including it) is a comment that is in the string and stripped before it is displayed (if en_US is used!)
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20090305 20:33:05< Lastmerlin> example: printf("you have to kill %i gnolls",gnolls)
20090305 20:33:09< Ivanovic> and we got some variable replacement stuff that comes from wml
20090305 20:33:20< fabi> Soliton: sorry, forgot to commit.
20090305 20:33:24< Ivanovic> this is all WML based though
20090305 20:33:30< Lastmerlin> depending on grammer of foreign languages the position of the number could change
20090305 20:33:38< CIA-70> fendrin * r33359 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios/03_Kalian.cfg: damn,forgot to commit. Made the ai simpler for ease debuging.
20090305 20:33:48< fabi> Soliton: please test with 33359
20090305 20:34:00< Lastmerlin> so you also also have to translate the position of the %i
20090305 20:34:00< Ivanovic> so in the display part, after the translated string is looked up, variables lik $MY_VARIABLE is replaced with the content of this MY_VARIABLE
20090305 20:34:18< Ivanovic> so to have this appear in the string, you also got to add $MY_VARIABLE in the string
20090305 20:34:56< Lastmerlin> and you translate the string with the $MY_VARIABLE ?
20090305 20:35:02< Ivanovic> jupp
20090305 20:35:48< Lastmerlin> ah ok
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20090305 20:38:25< Lastmerlin> means, if someone changes the name of the Variable you have to change all translations ?
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20090305 20:49:39< Soliton> yes.
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20090305 20:57:28< Lastmerlin> ok thanks a lot
20090305 20:57:57< Lastmerlin> << get to work :)
20090305 20:58:08< Lastmerlin> ciao
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20090305 20:58:28< alink> loonycyborg << get to work :)
20090305 20:59:04< alink> loonycyborg << "hello";
20090305 20:59:16< loonycyborg> You obviously confused me with someone else :P
20090305 20:59:31 * alink thought it was based on geordi bot
20090305 20:59:41 * loonycyborg barfs a compile error
20090305 21:00:01< loonycyborg> loonybot << "hello"
20090305 21:00:05< loonybot> hello
20090305 21:00:22< alink> ah yes i understand now :-)
20090305 21:00:28< alink> stupid auto-completion
20090305 21:01:12< alink> loonycyborg: sorry for the ping
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20090305 21:52:02< zookeeper> ok, so, i'm thinking about doing the unthinkable: fixing up the test of the clans map to being a bit more interesting.
20090305 21:53:32< zookeeper> like, a couple of smallish patches of forest and making the villages be more clustered instead of evenly scattered
20090305 21:53:48< Soliton> :-O
20090305 21:55:55< zookeeper> yeah, i know. it'd be a shame if a third of all players wouldn't stop at that scenario, right? ;)
20090305 21:56:32< Turuk> But but
20090305 21:56:34< Soliton> they get that far?
20090305 21:56:37< Turuk> That's like iconic
20090305 21:56:43< Turuk> The map that everyone has to hate
20090305 21:57:07< fabi> zookeeper: That scenario is terrible. The story is just crap: Sloughter us all, then we will help you.
20090305 21:57:23< zookeeper> Soliton, of all players that get that far, i meant.
20090305 21:57:33< Turuk> Eh, there are plenty of instances where might sways people to join with others
20090305 21:59:43< Soliton> what i don't like about the scenario is that (on hard?) you can't really get more than one knight, possible two if you're very bold and lucky, to join you.
20090305 22:00:28< Soliton> the number of kills should probably scale with difficulty.
20090305 22:00:42< zookeeper> i was thinking that i might decrease the size a little bit too. cut away a bit from the left side and move the keeps there a bit further right.
20090305 22:01:18< zookeeper> not much, just by 3-7 or so.
20090305 22:01:35< zookeeper> oh, and windmills. definitely windmills.
20090305 22:02:22< Turuk> don quixote style eh?
20090305 22:02:39< zookeeper> no, not as enemies -.-
20090305 22:02:47< Turuk> Awww... :(
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20090305 22:11:04< zookeeper> although if i move the keeps, then those pesky lancer hordes will reach the player sooner
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20090305 22:11:20< Turuk> what if you put another river in to slow them down
20090305 22:19:55< zookeeper> well, it's not going to slow them down much
20090305 22:20:14< zookeeper> 4MP to cross a 1-hex river
20090305 22:20:36< zookeeper> of course, i could widen the existing one...but they'd still get through pretty fast at the crossing points
20090305 22:20:41< Turuk> make it a two hex river (the first one) and then add the second one
20090305 22:20:53< Turuk> Less crossing points, or make them further south
20090305 22:21:01< Turuk> As it is, they have to funnel around the lake to the north and that helps
20090305 22:21:08< Turuk> If they had to funnel around to the south as well....
20090305 22:24:16< CIA-70> cjhopman * r33360 /trunk/src/play_controller.cpp: -fix bug #11031
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20090305 22:35:02< zookeeper> argh, and why isn't the windmill an overlay.
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20090305 23:26:01< CIA-70> dragonking * r33361 /trunk/src/ (formula_ai.cpp formula_ai.hpp): Code cleanup and pathfinding improvmements for formula ai
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