--- Log opened Fri Mar 13 00:00:17 2009
--- Day changed Fri Mar 13 2009
20090313 00:00:17< zookeeper> turn 7, blue didn't really advance at all, just attacked me with a solo pillager
20090313 00:00:21-!- zookeeper [n=l@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit []
20090313 00:02:23< Ivanovic> okay, still some stuff from suokkos fixes and improvements left i'd guess
20090313 00:03:05 * Shadow_Master reads the conversation about config_cache.cpp
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20090313 00:03:31< Ivanovic> esr: around?
20090313 00:04:01< Ivanovic> esr: you still got a list of things you reverted and reapplied in the sake of getting rid of the suokko induced ai probs?
20090313 00:04:17< Ivanovic> might be needed to wade through this list and get the "fixes" out again
20090313 00:04:44 * Shadow_Master accidentally read that as "getting rid of suokko"
20090313 00:05:34< loonycyborg> We've already got rid of suokko. But he may yet return.. :P
20090313 00:09:45< Ivanovic> if i would not be busy with my thesis next term i would maybe have been attamped to join SoC and work on a project named "revert the brokeness suokko left in the ai (aka: reimplement the c++ ai in a clean way)"
20090313 00:09:46< Ivanovic> ^^
20090313 00:10:01< Ivanovic> s/attamped/tempted
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20090313 00:13:29< Shadow_Master> well... why is the cache regenerated only if <condition> is true? shouldn't it be regenerated whenever other code wants it to be regenerated? 
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20090313 00:14:15< Shadow_Master> no, better. Can anyone remind me why rewriting the config cache manager was needed (besides the code obscurity, everything being in game.cpp before) ?
20090313 00:14:30< Ivanovic> no idea
20090313 00:14:46< Ivanovic> maybe because suokko needed something to mess that was not AI?
20090313 00:14:48< Ivanovic> ^^
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20090313 00:16:54< Shadow_Master> :.<
20090313 00:17:29< Shadow_Master> so, do you suggest to force cache invalidation "the ugly way" after installing/updating an add-on ?
20090313 00:17:49< Shadow_Master> oh. it's protected
20090313 00:18:50-!- esr [n=chatzill@wesnoth/developer/esr] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090313 00:19:06< ilor> Shadow_Master: like something like that ever stopped a determined c++ programmer ;)
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20090313 00:20:01< Shadow_Master> yeah, but it sounds like it is a safety measure "in case one of those crazy devs attempted to fix this mess"
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20090313 00:20:54< ilor> what happened to suokko anyway, did he just go "ha ha my work here is done, they'll never sort this mess out" one day?
20090313 00:21:09< Ivanovic> ilor: he vanished without further note
20090313 00:21:23< Ivanovic> for a while he was still idling in IRC but not reacting at all
20090313 00:21:27< Shadow_Master>  His IRC session from university kept idling here for a long time until it got definitively destroyed on December
20090313 00:21:33< Ivanovic> and then he just vanished completely
20090313 00:21:52< Shadow_Master> Ivanovic: have you sent him any emails before?
20090313 00:22:07< Shadow_Master> oh, btw; http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=103634
20090313 00:22:09< Ivanovic> sure, several
20090313 00:22:15< Shadow_Master> he last visited before he last spoke on IRC IIRC.
20090313 00:23:12< Shadow_Master> Turuk_: _wow_!!
20090313 00:23:18< Shadow_Master> the ACP log is... not pretty.
20090313 00:23:57< Shadow_Master> I'll have to play with ShikadiLord until your actions go to page 2 :-p
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20090313 00:36:06< Shadow_Master> using set_force_not_valid_cache() doesn't help anyway
20090313 00:37:25< Soliton> yeah, it never even checks the cache if the define map didn't change (and probably is empty).
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20090313 00:42:28< Soliton> yay!
20090313 00:44:52< Shadow_Master> something new?
20090313 00:45:33 * Shadow_Master is staring at game.cpp:1482
20090313 00:45:59< Soliton> yeah, i have it rewriting the cache but probably too often now.
20090313 00:46:51< Soliton> well, maybe not.
20090313 00:48:08< Shadow_Master> commenting game.cpp:1481 1482 and 1483 seems to solve it here, though I have no idea what is this stuff of copying and comparing old_defines_map_ around
20090313 00:49:31< Soliton> right but then you load it always.
20090313 00:49:54< Soliton> well, it compares old vs current defines.
20090313 00:50:31< Soliton> but obviously that is not sufficient to detect when to reload the game config.
20090313 00:50:46< Soliton> i've added a force paramater there.
20090313 00:51:17< Soliton> s/obviously/apparently/
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20090313 00:52:29< Soliton> one could possibly also just check if the current map is empty.
20090313 00:52:56< Soliton> since that is the problem now the map is emptied but it is also empty by default.
20090313 00:53:18< Soliton> i bet with tiny gui it works as before.
20090313 00:53:37< Soliton> or apple... a mac user there?
20090313 00:53:53< Shadow_Master> Turuk or crimson_penguin 
20090313 00:54:00< Turuk> What do you need?
20090313 00:54:19< Soliton> does cache rebuilding work for you after installing/removing an addon?
20090313 00:54:29< Turuk> I will try, give me one second
20090313 00:55:11< Turuk> Yup, it works just fine
20090313 00:55:23< Turuk> Campaign appears right as it should
20090313 00:55:28< Soliton> as i thought.
20090313 00:55:37< Shadow_Master> so Windows and Linux users lose ? pff.
20090313 00:55:44< Soliton> well, that defines map check is hacky either way.
20090313 00:56:13< Turuk> Does Wesnoth still need to be restarted if you download an add-on for MP?
20090313 00:56:24< Soliton> shouldn't.
20090313 00:56:52< Soliton> you will see the config reload screen for any addon.
20090313 00:57:37< Soliton> might also be nice to have a command to force a reload for WML developers so you don't have to restart wesnoth all the time.
20090313 00:57:47< Turuk> Yup, works fine.  It was not me saying it didn't, I just didn't know :P
20090313 00:57:51< Turuk> That would be nice.
20090313 00:58:13< Soliton> not sure where to put the interface though...
20090313 00:58:33< Soliton> a main menu button is probably a bit over the top. :-)
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20090313 01:03:03< Soliton> Shadow_Master: do you know when gui::RELOAD_GAME_DATA is set?
20090313 01:03:29< Shadow_Master> first time I heard/read of it.
20090313 01:03:47< Shadow_Master> I can find an assignment in src/
20090313 01:03:51< Shadow_Master> *can't
20090313 01:04:29< Shadow_Master> checking the 1.4 code...
20090313 01:04:29< Soliton> game config is realoaded there too but i don't force it. no idea if it would make sense there, too.
20090313 01:05:40< Shadow_Master> it didn't exist before. Looks like unreachable cde.
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20090313 01:07:56< Soliton> ohhh, you can press F5 in the main menu to reload game data!
20090313 01:08:08< Soliton> then i guess i should force it there as well.
20090313 01:09:56< Shadow_Master> installing a new add-on, and pressing F5 at the titlescreen doesn't update the cache
20090313 01:10:11< Soliton> because it still uses the same bogus check!
20090313 01:10:17< Soliton> i'll commit in a bit.
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20090313 01:12:21< fendrin> hi
20090313 01:12:29< Soliton> hello
20090313 01:13:26< CIA-70> soliton * r33583 /trunk/ (changelog src/game.cpp): * properly force game config reloading; fixes bug #13123: When you're downloading add-ons they do not appear in campaigns list until BfW restarted
20090313 01:13:57< Soliton> thanks for the pointer in the right direction Shadow_Master.
20090313 01:15:34< Shadow_Master> np
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20090313 01:24:14< Shadow_Master> http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth/trunk/data/core/images/portraits/elves/transparent/shaman.png
20090313 01:24:28< Shadow_Master> guess what happens if you click on a revision view link that points to the ancient location.
20090313 01:26:16< dfranke> I'm installing Ubuntu on my fencing coach's new computer tonight.  He's never used a computer before; he's gonna be born free :-)
20090313 01:26:29< dfranke> and I'll be sure to introduce him to Wesnoth :-)
20090313 01:28:40< CIA-70> soliton * r33584 /trunk/src/ (3 files in 2 dirs): clarify some variable names
20090313 01:28:48< CIA-70> soliton * r33585 /trunk/src/ (filesystem.cpp unit_types.cpp): downgrade some noisy log messages to debug level
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20090313 01:34:46< CIA-70> shadowmaster * r33586 /trunk/src/ai_move.cpp: Shut up some "deprecated WML" messages for 1.6 as requested by Ivanovic.
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20090313 01:39:59< fendrin> wesbot: seen zookeeper
20090313 01:40:00< wesbot> fendrin: The person with the nick zookeeper last spoke 1h 39m ago.  1h 39m ago was here and on the channels #wesnoth and #wesnoth-umc-dev with the message:
20090313 01:40:39< Ivanovic> fendrin: please retest the scenarios with ai problems if my changes make any difference for you
20090313 01:40:54< Ivanovic> cf the comments in the bug reports
20090313 01:40:58< Ivanovic> i am off to bed now, n8
20090313 01:41:10 * shikadibot hands Ivanovic a soft pillow
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20090313 02:58:56< CIA-70> fendrin * r33587 /trunk/data/core/terrain-graphics.cfg: Reduced the dense of cacti in the desert.
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20090313 03:01:59< CIA-70> fendrin * r33588 /trunk/data/core/images/portraits/ARTISTS: 
20090313 03:01:59< CIA-70> Corrected a copy and paste failure. Gisgistan's real name is missing in this file. And he is
20090313 03:01:59< CIA-70> not minded in the about.cfg at all.
20090313 03:02:30< Shadow_Master_> fendrin: I already added Girgy to the about.cfg 
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20090313 03:03:02< fendrin> Shadow_Master_: I will fetch the realname there.
20090313 03:03:11< Shadow_Master_> I will?
20090313 03:03:39-!- alink [n=alink@wesnoth/developer/alink] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090313 03:03:42< Shadow_Master_> sorry, I don't understand.
20090313 03:04:29< fendrin> I am going to fetch the missing information ( Girgistan's realname ) from the about.cfg file to which you claimed to have added him.
20090313 03:06:03< Shadow_Master_> ah.
20090313 03:07:58< CIA-70> alink * r33589 /trunk/src/preferences_display.cpp: 
20090313 03:07:58< CIA-70> Fix escape for cancelling hotkey assignment.
20090313 03:07:58< CIA-70> (at least on my side, where it seems that a keyboard mod=4096 is always active)
20090313 03:08:22< CIA-70> fendrin * r33590 /trunk/data/core/images/portraits/ARTISTS: Added the realname of Girgistan.
20090313 03:10:45-!- Shadow_Master_ is now known as Shadow_Master
20090313 03:15:55< CIA-70> shadowmaster * r33591 /trunk/data/core/images/portraits/ARTISTS: 
20090313 03:15:55< CIA-70> The linework for the Undead Lich is by Girgistian. The shading and
20090313 03:15:55< CIA-70> coloring is by Kitty.
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20090313 04:11:29< Shadow_Master> zookeeper: (I hope you read the logs) The dirt tile transitions are drawn over any custom terrains' transitions unless I make custom rules for Re.
20090313 04:11:36< Shadow_Master> e.g.
20090313 04:11:37< Shadow_Master> {TRANSITION_BASE_LF       Ryd (Re)     -334    transition3       dark-tile}
20090313 04:12:01< Shadow_Master> (Ryd is the custom terrain, of course, and the dark-tile series includes transitions similar to the standard Rr road's)
20090313 04:12:44< Shadow_Master> why does this happen with the new dirt and only with the new dirt? is it intended? it is a bit awkward for the few UMC authors who handle terrain graphics WML.
20090313 04:12:50< Shadow_Master> a.k.a. I and my imaginary friend :-|
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20090313 07:52:51< zookeeper> the mermaid initiate, echantress and siren don't show up in http://www.wesnoth.org/units/trunk/C/mainline.html , what's up with that?
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20090313 09:48:08< CIA-70> ivanovic * r33592 /website/start/1.6/ (49 files in 2 dirs): 
20090313 09:48:08< CIA-70> typo fix
20090313 09:48:08< CIA-70> regenerated po files for the announcement
20090313 09:50:36< CIA-70> ivanovic * r33593 /website/start/1.6/ (index.html.en index.html.zho po/zho.po): updated Chinese announcement, generated html versions
20090313 09:51:11< Ivanovic> moin
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20090313 09:58:54< Soliton> zookeeper: looks like the feudal era has a level 2 unit with the same id...
20090313 10:02:42< Ivanovic> ettin: question: is the website ready to have the announcement pages put there and working?
20090313 10:03:00< Ivanovic> atm the generated html pages can not be viewd directly as long as they are "only" in the svn
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20090313 11:14:33< CIA-70> soliton * r33594 /trunk/data/tools/wmlunits: parse addons first so mainline units overwrite user made units with the same ID and not the other way around
20090313 11:16:27< Soliton> zookeeper: next run should clean it up now. hope it doesn't have other side effects...
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20090313 12:08:44< silene> hi
20090313 12:09:39< Ivanovic> hi silene
20090313 12:11:41< Ivanovic> silene: i think you already started to look at this, will you implement a fix to make sure that it can't crash at this situation? https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?13174
20090313 12:13:05-!- Shadow_Master [n=imorelle@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090313 12:13:32< Shadow_Master> hi
20090313 12:14:40< Ivanovic> hallo Shadow_Master
20090313 12:15:35< silene> Ivanovic: if Shadow_Master has not already tackled it, i will look at it this afternoon
20090313 12:17:01< Ivanovic> i think Shadow_Master has not really started to fix https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?13174
20090313 12:17:23< Shadow_Master> no. I don't know that area at all.
20090313 12:17:33< Ivanovic> dfranke: any news on https://gna.org/bugs/?13037 ?
20090313 12:18:56< Ivanovic> Shadow_Master: so bug 12983 is still reproduceable for you? https://gna.org/bugs/?12983
20090313 12:20:02< Shadow_Master> it's in my to-do list for tonight to check it again
20090313 12:22:15< Ivanovic> okay, but i found an interesting bug
20090313 12:22:28< Ivanovic> put the a save from a previous version into your saves folder
20090313 12:22:31< Ivanovic> be in a game
20090313 12:22:58< Ivanovic> load the save from the old version and click "no" in the "do you really want this save from an older version" dialog
20090313 12:23:11< Ivanovic> you will end in the main menu though i would expect to be back in the game where i was
20090313 12:25:17< Soliton> Ivanovic: see #wesnoth
20090313 12:26:29< Ivanovic> Shadow_Master: i tried to reproduce 12983 about 10 to 20 times now and it worked as expected always (that is i always had the leadership option)
20090313 12:27:23< CIA-70> shadowmaster * r33595 /trunk/data/core/ (2 files in 2 dirs): 
20090313 12:27:23< CIA-70> Per Kitty's request, flip the Elvish Shaman portrait (high-res) back to
20090313 12:27:23< CIA-70> its original state and make it be shown at the right instead of at the
20090313 12:27:23< CIA-70> left.
20090313 12:41:02< Shadow_Master> that could either mean that esr fixed the bug accidentally in WML with his last rewrite of the AMLAs, or that it is a nice random bug affecting only 64bit Linux systems
20090313 12:41:25< Shadow_Master> or someone else accidentally fixed it in C++
20090313 12:42:39< Ivanovic> my system is a 64bit box
20090313 12:42:52< Shadow_Master> platform.
20090313 12:43:14< Shadow_Master> e.g. kernel. glibc. libstdc++.
20090313 12:43:33< Ivanovic> yes, my whole system is a 64bit system, though i have a 32bit multilib
20090313 12:43:38< Ivanovic> which is not relevant for wesnoth
20090313 12:43:58< Shadow_Master> ah. I recalled that you were on a 32bit only platform before
20090313 12:44:03< Ivanovic> $ file /games-bin/wesnoth-svn
20090313 12:44:05< Ivanovic> /games-bin/wesnoth-svn: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.9, not stripped
20090313 12:44:09< Shadow_Master> ok ok
20090313 12:44:13< Ivanovic> on my laptop i am at 32bit
20090313 12:44:18< Ivanovic> on my desktop i use 64bit
20090313 12:44:40< Ivanovic> (you know, more testing possible this way though my laptop would be able to handle 64bit, too)
20090313 12:46:39< Shadow_Master> ah heh. My desktop has a 32bit processor but I'd not dare run any memory intensive process until I get around to make a swap partition that doesn't use the "black hole" area of the disk
20090313 12:47:02< Ivanovic> Sysinfo for 'rechner1': Linux 2.6.25.20 running KDE 3.5.10, CPU: Intel(R) Core 2 Quad  CPU   Q9300  @ 2.50GHz at 2000 MHz (4999 bogomips), HD: 347/1162GB, RAM: 3340/3952MB, 156 proc's, 3.9h up
20090313 12:47:16< Ivanovic> (and just to be sure i got 5gb swap active)
20090313 12:49:04-!- xonev [n=chatzill@59.92.40.155] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090313 12:50:56< Shadow_Master> this guy, xonev , contributed patches to Wesnoth, right?
20090313 12:52:43< Ivanovic> yeah, i think so
20090313 12:52:50< Ivanovic> he might even have commit access
20090313 12:53:14< Ivanovic> okay, no commit access
20090313 12:58:26< CIA-70> ivanovic * r33596 /trunk/ (11 files in 8 dirs): updated Chinese (Simplified) and Hungarian translation
20090313 13:00:08< CIA-70> ivanovic * r33597 /trunk/po/wesnoth-ei/en_GB.po: fixed the fuzzy in the british english translation
20090313 13:02:17< Ivanovic> okay, now we got 4 "real" (i don't count en_GB for this) translations at 100% (quite good compared to the 2 at 1.4) and at least polish is likely to make it in time, too
20090313 13:02:29< Ivanovic> turkish is close, short guess: they'll make it
20090313 13:03:09< silene> Ivanovic: it's not really a bug; version check is done during loading, and loading only starts once the current state has been purged
20090313 13:03:30< xonev> Shadow_Master: yeah, but just one
20090313 13:03:52< Shadow_Master> xonev: okay, still enough for being Code & WML contributor in the forum
20090313 13:04:23< xonev> Shadow_Master: well, technically 2, but the first one was just some _extremely_ light documentation changes
20090313 13:04:37< xonev> Shadow_Master: ah, ok, cool
20090313 13:04:39< xonev> :D
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20090313 13:40:27< CIA-70> shadowmaster * r33598 /trunk/data/core/ (macros/sound-utils.cfg music/siege_of_laurelmor.ogg): 
20090313 13:40:27< CIA-70> New music track, "Siege of Laurelmor", from Doug Kaufman (44.1 KHz, Q6).
20090313 13:40:27< CIA-70> * Wired into macros/sound-utils.cfg . Mainline campaign maintainers are
20090313 13:40:27< CIA-70> encouraged to listen to this track and use it as they see fit.
20090313 13:41:52-!- mjs-de [n=mjs-de@vpw.wh.uni-dortmund.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090313 13:45:06< Shadow_Master> shadowm@bluecore:~/src/wesnoth$ git svn rebase
20090313 13:45:07< Shadow_Master> fatal: unable to create '.git/svn/trunk/index.lock': File exists
20090313 13:45:16< Shadow_Master> pheeew.
20090313 13:50:02-!- Shadow_Master [n=imorelle@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has quit ["class"]
20090313 13:55:35< CIA-70> soliton * r33599 /trunk/src/server/server.cpp: 
20090313 13:55:35< CIA-70> added a clones command to show all users that share an IP
20090313 13:55:35< CIA-70> fixed the help command to show admin help again when appropriate
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20090313 14:14:45< sk-> small bug: when you droid a side you get a message: <server> skdroids side 3.
20090313 14:14:53< sk-> without a space between sk and droid.
20090313 14:15:41< Ivanovic> Soliton: will you have a look?
20090313 14:15:50< Ivanovic> i think this is one of the untranslateable cases, right?
20090313 14:16:52< Soliton> sure.
20090313 14:17:38< Ivanovic> thanks
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20090313 14:24:02< CIA-70> soliton * r33600 /trunk/src/server/game.cpp: added a missing space
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20090313 14:36:00< CIA-70> soliton * r33601 /trunk/utils/mp-server/ (run_campaignd update_server): updated some scripts to consider version 1.6
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20090313 14:41:33< zookeeper> Soliton, roger
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20090313 15:00:54< zookeeper> fendrin, you were looking for me?
20090313 15:01:11< fendrin> hi zookeeper
20090313 15:01:47< fendrin> I saw the new cactus desert terrain, and the desert was much to crowded for my taste.
20090313 15:02:31-!- ABCD [n=ABCD@wikipedia/ABCD] has quit [Client Quit]
20090313 15:02:42< fendrin> I have reduced the dense of the cacti in commit 33587
20090313 15:03:00-!- ABCD [n=ABCD@wikipedia/ABCD] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090313 15:03:02< zookeeper> sure. i originally tried that too, but figured it was too sparse so i went with 1 for prob.
20090313 15:03:06< zookeeper> i don't mind either way
20090313 15:13:52< CIA-70> silene * r33602 /trunk/src/ (12 files): Cleaned usage of unit_map::add.
20090313 15:15:06< CIA-70> silene * r33603 /trunk/src/unit_map.cpp: Forbade insertion of units with invalid location. (Fix for bug #13174.)
20090313 15:15:08< silene> Ivanovic: what do you mean you had the leadership option each time? has the campaign changed recently? because when i looked last week, it should have been impossible to get (the amla requirement of this upgrade are not satisfied)
20090313 15:15:40< zookeeper> shadow_master, i suggest you try changing transition3 to transition2 in terrain-graphics.cfg:519 and see if that solves it.
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20090313 15:32:41< Ivanovic> silene: with the savegame i was able to really get it every attack
20090313 15:32:54< Ivanovic> and from what i understood this should be correct
20090313 15:33:01< Ivanovic> at least that is what shadow_master said
20090313 15:33:43< silene> strange, he told me he had absolutely no clue what the correct amla was supposed to be :-)
20090313 15:34:57< Ivanovic> since i now get it every time, i suppose this is correct
20090313 15:34:58< Ivanovic> ;)
20090313 15:35:17< Ivanovic> at least it appears to be deterministic now...
20090313 15:36:06-!- Shadow_Master [n=imorelle@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090313 15:36:45< fendrin> zookeeper: Do you know where village_gold is supposed to work? The wiki lists it only under [side] but there must be at least one mainline village_gold in a [scenario]. The wiki writes that village_gold should be set to -1 if a village shouldn't give any income. But every village_gold in mainline is set to 0.
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20090313 15:41:10< zookeeper> fendrin, i don't know really
20090313 15:41:25< Shadow_Master> village_gold works on [side] IME
20090313 15:42:15< fendrin> does it work if set to 0 because the wiki says otherwise. 
20090313 15:43:00< fendrin> ?
20090313 15:43:15< Shadow_Master> I think it does. I'm sure I have set many scenarios in IftU so sides cannot get any income from villages
20090313 15:43:20< Shadow_Master> why not try it yourself?
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20090313 15:44:07< Ivanovic> fendrin: short question since you are the utbs maintainer: what is the *expected* behaviour in this case? https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?12983
20090313 15:44:34< Ivanovic> should it be possible to select better swordsman/archer *and* leadership
20090313 15:44:41< Ivanovic> or only between swordsman and archer?
20090313 15:46:23< fendrin> Ivanovic: Please ask Shadow_Master, about amla.
20090313 15:46:36< Shadow_Master> no.
20090313 15:46:49< Shadow_Master> I am maintainer too but I have no ****** idea what Rhuvaen and Cycholka wanted to do there.
20090313 15:47:13< Shadow_Master> that is: they didn't bother to leave a note about what the AMLA tree should actually be like AFAIK.
20090313 15:47:22 * fendrin still has the option to remove that evil amla thing before 1.6.
20090313 15:47:28< Shadow_Master> and since all of us have taken delight into rewriting and breaking it multiple times..
20090313 15:49:27< Ivanovic> uhm, maybe look up the code for kaleh and check what is set there?
20090313 15:49:28< fendrin> It's now even worth for a testcase of the amla c++ code if no one knows what it is expected to do. And I don't understand the wml for it.
20090313 15:53:22< Shadow_Master> Ivanovic: I assure you, we all have tried to read it.
20090313 15:53:38< Shadow_Master> Espreon, fendrin, ESR and me. No success so far.
20090313 15:54:16< Ivanovic> okay, then i see two options atm:
20090313 15:54:24< Ivanovic> 1) leave it in an pray that it "just works"
20090313 15:54:32< Ivanovic> 2) remove it and get back to "normal leveling"
20090313 15:55:17< Ivanovic> you maintain the campaign, so it is your choice
20090313 15:55:36< Shadow_Master> many players seem to like it and use it for promoting UtBS as a pretty different mainline choice, so... I think it should be 1.
20090313 15:55:47< Ivanovic> i would prefer 1
20090313 15:56:06< Ivanovic> then some tests are required to see if the leveling of kaleh now really is deterministic
20090313 15:58:00< Shadow_Master> all the stuff of changing the unit's variation depending on the AMLA choices is confusing.
20090313 15:59:59< Shadow_Master> I'm summoning Rhuvaen.
20090313 16:00:02< Soliton> you change the AMLA choices based on the variation.
20090313 16:01:03< Soliton> what situation exactly is not clear?
20090313 16:02:10< Shadow_Master> what the exact order of AMLAs (as in, a tree diagram) is.
20090313 16:02:15< Soliton> what's confusing is that non existant AMLA requirements are called differently in like every line. :-P
20090313 16:03:02< Soliton> not-allowed, not_allowed, "non available", etc.
20090313 16:03:49< Soliton> so tell esr to write a tool like wmlunits to display AMLAs! ;-)
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20090313 16:09:15< fendrin> UtBS was a different style mainline campaign some time before the amla hit it.
20090313 16:10:27< Ivanovic> yes, and amla made it even more special
20090313 16:10:28< Shadow_Master> yes, but now people promote it as _the_ RPGish campaign. That was the case before, but now they use the AMLA stuff as argument.
20090313 16:10:35< Shadow_Master> TBH I failed to see the RPGish feel before the AMLAs.
20090313 16:11:59< fendrin> The amla is cool, but I don't want to maintain it.
20090313 16:12:05-!- Turuk [n=Turuk@wesnoth/forumsith/turuk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090313 16:12:43< fendrin> But maybe it's not broken anymore.
20090313 16:12:44< Shadow_Master> neither do I, but hey, we also "maintain" the terrain graphics and theme-WML engines despite nobody knows how they work (nobody that is an active dev, at least)
20090313 16:13:29< Shadow_Master> I want to test the AMLAs again, but only after I get home.
20090313 16:13:42< fendrin> Shadow_Master: Nobody knows how the c++ components of terrain graphics and theme-wml works?
20090313 16:14:21< Shadow_Master> apparently. see last statement in that line.
20090313 16:15:11< Soliton> so, first odd thing i see the bolas AMLA icon and tooltip right after starting utbs.
20090313 16:15:39< Soliton> since it is not active that's probably an engine bug.
20090313 16:16:15< Shadow_Master> :x it wasn't doing that in 1.5.10
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20090313 16:31:37< Soliton> hmm, what i don't really understand is how the first AMLA works. apparently it goes from youth to fighter but i'm not sure why.
20090313 16:35:08< CIA-70> fendrin * r33604 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios/16_The_Chief_must_die.cfg: 
20090313 16:35:08< CIA-70> LoW 16: Disabled income from the villages for the player.
20090313 16:35:08< CIA-70> Disabled recalling units for the player.
20090313 16:35:08< CIA-70> Set the player's base income to 0, but this doesn't work.
20090313 16:35:08< CIA-70> Disabled the early finishing bonus.
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20090313 16:37:34< zookeeper> fendrin, if you need to drop the player's income to 0, you need to have income=-2
20090313 16:37:55< fendrin> zookeeper: thanks
20090313 16:38:32< Soliton> ah, got it now.
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20090313 16:39:03< Soliton> i guess i could add some comments...
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20090313 16:39:14< fendrin> Soliton: please do so.
20090313 16:44:42< Soliton> ok, so is there any specific question on how kaleh's AMLAs work?
20090313 16:44:56< CIA-70> fendrin * r33605 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios/16_The_Chief_must_die.cfg: LoW 16: Player's incomu droped to 0.
20090313 16:45:17< Shadow_Master> what AMLAs (B1, ... Bn) does AMLA A enable?
20090313 16:45:45< Soliton> "specific"
20090313 16:46:07< Soliton> AMLAs don't enable other AMLAs anyway, variations do.
20090313 16:46:25< Ivanovic> Soliton: https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?12983
20090313 16:46:37< Soliton> well, unless they were already enabled with a possible requirement in which case it should be easy to see.
20090313 16:46:38< Ivanovic> Soliton: what is the expected result of amla choices in this situation
20090313 16:48:16< Soliton> fine, guess i have to read that save...
20090313 16:49:43< Soliton> so leadership is not allowed with that save unless there is a funny AMLA with a "not-allowed" id.
20090313 16:50:14< Soliton> which there isn't.
20090313 16:50:41< Shadow_Master> I guess the save is out of date then.
20090313 16:50:58< Soliton> hmm..
20090313 16:51:00< Shadow_Master> no idea what esr did the last time he rewrote the AMLA stuff (after that save was made)
20090313 16:51:32< Soliton> Kaleh is variation Fighter though so leadership should be enabled.
20090313 16:51:45< Soliton> so yeah, the savegame is probably outdated.
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20090313 16:56:51< Soliton> eh, making this into a chart is not so easy...
20090313 16:58:50< Shadow_Master> ;.(
20090313 16:59:40-!- ikarius [n=ross@216.27.182.3] has quit []
20090313 17:00:08< Ivanovic> will probably end in some weirdo graph, right?
20090313 17:00:11< Soliton> well, basically it's this: http://nopaste.com/p/a6r3E53SE
20090313 17:00:27< Soliton> but stuff is enabled/disabled based on current variation.
20090313 17:01:37< Soliton> and leadership is only available as Fighter and if you don't choose it you should never get it again.
20090313 17:02:06< Soliton> oh not true, also available as Hero.
20090313 17:02:29< Soliton> and Hero2...
20090313 17:02:50< Soliton> so it is only gone once you're a Champion.
20090313 17:03:53< Soliton> ok, i'll test a bit how it actually works in practice...
20090313 17:07:22< Soliton> looks like the icon on the right side bar always displays the last still available AMLA.
20090313 17:07:36< Soliton> not sure if that is just confusing or also helpful...
20090313 17:10:19< Soliton> Shadow_Master: do you remember what AMLA combination was a problem?
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20090313 17:10:59< Shadow_Master> no. The saved game isn't mine either.
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20090313 17:12:05< Soliton> ok, i'd call it fixed for now then until we get a save that reproduces whatever weird behaviour there was.
20090313 17:12:13< Ivanovic> there it seems to be a sword+armor-clad one not always getting hero
20090313 17:13:05< Soliton> you can't have armor-clad as a hero.
20090313 17:13:23< Ivanovic> at least some strange resistence stuff thingie
20090313 17:13:37< Soliton> sustenance.
20090313 17:14:11< Ivanovic> yeah, might be this
20090313 17:14:31< Soliton> hmm, no armor clad makes sense.
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20090313 17:14:45< Soliton> there are some weird modifications that make little sense to me.
20090313 17:15:01< Soliton> like: {ENABLE_AMLA "sword,sword" Hero2 9 0 10}
20090313 17:15:20< Soliton> which means a requirement of "sword,sword" which isn't possible?
20090313 17:16:21< Soliton> that is as Hero and as Hero2 it is changed to no requirement.
20090313 17:17:42< Soliton> i can try to clean the WML up a bit to make it easier readable and maybe fix some unwanted cases.
20090313 17:20:50-!- Shadow_Master [n=imorelle@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has quit ["off to classes."]
20090313 17:28:42< Soliton> fendrin: mind if i make the AMLA tree a bit more consistent?
20090313 17:29:39< Soliton> currently requirements change based on variation which makes not so much sense to me and just makes it harder to understand how it exactly works.
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20090313 17:36:02< fendrin> Soliton: Yes, I planned to simplify all of the campaign after 1.6. Many scenarios are just overdesigned.
20090313 17:37:03< fendrin> Soliton: Everything that aims for readability and easy mantainance is welcomed.
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20090313 17:37:12< Soliton> ok.
20090313 17:38:11< Soliton> i think the basic idea is leadership vs bolas. so i will keep requirements as they initially are and only disable bolas and leadership based on variation.
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20090313 17:41:57< zookeeper> oh yes, i don't think either rhuvaen or cycholka favour especially KISS scenario mechanics ;)
20090313 17:42:46< zookeeper> there's usually all sorts of complicated calculations taking place to figure out stuff
20090313 17:43:57< fendrin> Many scenarios use tons of variables because there is no proper use of nested events or filtering.
20090313 17:44:04< esr> zookeeper: I fixed the missing EI journey tracks.
20090313 17:45:00< zookeeper> esr, i noticed
20090313 17:49:29 * zookeeper wonders which times of the year EI takes place in
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20090313 18:04:39< esr> zookeeper: I don't think anything in EI is tied to a particular season.  You want to pick one?
20090313 18:09:52< Soliton> hrm, this advancement tree still doesn't quite make sense...
20090313 18:10:25< Soliton> i wonder if it ever did.
20090313 18:12:27-!- Devman is now known as Dveman115
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20090313 18:12:45< Soliton> yep, you could always choose everything as long as you chose bolas and leadership early on because they get arbitrarily disabled later.
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20090313 18:15:06< Soliton> since i'd have to add another variation tree to ensure a sane choice between bolas and leadership i guess i will simply allow the player to get both?
20090313 18:15:17< Soliton> fendrin: ^
20090313 18:16:03-!- cjhopman_ [n=chris@wesnoth/developer/cjhopman] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
20090313 18:16:55< Soliton> i guess there should be some trade-off choice or the whole captian vs hero variatian makes little sense...
20090313 18:17:39< fendrin> Soliton: I do believe that is a little to overpowered, isn't it?
20090313 18:18:04< Soliton> well, it is possible now... if you know what to choose.
20090313 18:20:39< Soliton> fendrin: basically make up what kind of trade-off choices you want Kaleh to have and maybe i'll implement it.
20090313 18:27:03< zookeeper> esr, i guess i'll make it so that the beginning is in the summer, then early winter (not much snow) in the end.
20090313 18:27:21< esr> zookeeper: Reasonable.
20090313 18:29:38-!- mordante [n=mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090313 18:30:01< mordante> hi
20090313 18:34:14< fendrin> hi mordante
20090313 18:34:21< mordante> hi fendrin 
20090313 18:34:44 * Soliton pokes fendrin.
20090313 18:35:20< fendrin> Soliton: leadership and bola needs to be divided.
20090313 18:36:36< Soliton> ok, so currently we have only two variation trees which makes that impossible unless we make it the very first choice.
20090313 18:37:26< Soliton> the nicer way would be to add another variation tree that is generic and branches to hero or captain when bolas or leadership is chosen.
20090313 18:37:31-!- Sirp [n=me@wesnoth/developer/dave] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090313 18:37:46< fendrin> Soliton: yes, do the last one.
20090313 18:37:53< Soliton> right...
20090313 18:41:20< Soliton> ok, guess i will.
20090313 18:46:01< Soliton> i should rewrite the whole way this is setup.. i don't know how someone could have htought this is a good idea.
20090313 18:47:42< Ivanovic> hi isaac
20090313 18:47:50< Ivanovic> argh, s/issac/Sirp
20090313 18:47:58-!- zookeeper2 [n=l@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe9ff800-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090313 18:48:36< isaac> hi Ivanovic 
20090313 18:49:55< CIA-70> mordante * r33606 /trunk/ (CMakeLists.txt changelog configure.ac): 
20090313 18:49:55< CIA-70> Reduce the fontconfig dependency to 2.4.1.
20090313 18:49:55< CIA-70> On the forum there has been a report[1] that 2.4.1 also works so lower the
20090313 18:49:55< CIA-70> dependency.
20090313 18:49:55< CIA-70> [1] http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=24456
20090313 18:50:20< Ivanovic> mordante: please also update the INSTALL file#
20090313 18:51:31< CIA-70> mordante * r33607 /trunk/INSTALL: 
20090313 18:51:31< CIA-70> Update the fontconfig dependency in INSTALL.
20090313 18:51:31< CIA-70> Thanks to Ivanovic for reminding me.
20090313 18:52:14< Ivanovic> zookeeper2: any idea when jetryl will be done with the Eloh portrait?
20090313 18:52:20< Ivanovic> cf bug https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?13135
20090313 18:52:39< zookeeper2> hopefully before the release :p
20090313 18:52:43< zookeeper2> i'll remind him
20090313 18:53:05< Ivanovic> Sirp: it would be *great* if you could have a look at this bugreport: https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?13166
20090313 18:53:06-!- zookeeper [n=l@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)]
20090313 18:53:13< Ivanovic> the ai movement really looks ugly there...
20090313 18:54:45< Ivanovic> mordante: please have a look at this assertion: https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?13180
20090313 18:55:12< mordante> Ivanovic, after dinner 
20090313 18:55:28< mordante> I hope I can reproduce it in German
20090313 18:56:26< Sirp> Ivanovic: okay.....
20090313 18:56:59< Sirp> Ivanovic: wintermute tracked most AI badness to a single release where suokko made a bunch of changes. Maybe I should try to look at all of his changes and roll them back one by one.
20090313 18:57:01< Ivanovic> that is: there are several ai related problems open and the ai advances a lot slower than it used to
20090313 18:57:03< Sirp> if possible.
20090313 18:57:21< Ivanovic> the problem with rolling back the changes is simply that several of them were already rolled back
20090313 18:57:30< Sirp> Ivanovic: yes.
20090313 18:57:36< Sirp> so the rest have to be also. :)
20090313 18:57:49< Ivanovic> maybe esr has an idea what was rolled back and reapplied
20090313 18:57:55-!- zookeeper2 is now known as zookeeper
20090313 18:58:06< Sirp> Ivanovic: I would probably just go through all of suokko's changes one by one and see which were rolled back and which were not
20090313 18:58:12< Ivanovic> that is my changes yesterday to make "initialization" using some fixed vars seems to have at least reduced some problems
20090313 18:58:13< Sirp> and then roll back those which were not.
20090313 18:58:15< esr> Sirp: I already tried that....
20090313 18:58:29< Sirp> esr: okay.......and I assume you did not get good results?
20090313 18:58:35< Ivanovic> sounds like a good solution to get rid of all the ai related changes
20090313 18:58:51< silene> you could just do a diff between trunk and 1.4.something for the AI files; the diff isn't that big, but i didn't notice anything wrong at first glance
20090313 18:59:09< esr> Well, the AI stopped obviously sucking.  Now it sucks in more subtle ways, which fendrin is busily revealing.
20090313 18:59:50 * Sirp nods
20090313 19:00:19< boucman> back...
20090313 19:00:22< esr> This was late last year after suokko vanished.  
20090313 19:01:19< esr> There's a big comment somewhere in the changelogs where I list exactly which AI commits I reverted and which I reapplued.
20090313 19:01:34< esr> The svn changelogs, I mean.
20090313 19:02:36< Ivanovic> esr: have you not also sent it to the -dev ml?
20090313 19:02:52< esr> I believe I did, yes.
20090313 19:04:13< cjhopman> on the ai topic... i was playing a scenario with like 5 ais... 4 of them attacked me, and 1 just kept shuffling a huge group of guys around his keep.
20090313 19:05:46< cjhopman> oh nvm... i got it
20090313 19:07:03< cjhopman> i think
20090313 19:10:09< mordante> Shadow_Master at least alink and I know a bit about the terrain-graphics code and the theme_wml is slowly on it's way to meet its maker
20090313 19:12:55< Soliton> if i fix the utbs AMLAs properly it will break compatibility... any problem with that?
20090313 19:16:12< esr> Soliton: Now's the time.  It would only be a bigger problem after 1.6.
20090313 19:21:03-!- mjs-de [n=mjs-de@vpw.wh.uni-dortmund.de] has quit ["On the road again"]
20090313 19:22:13-!- Dragonking [n=dk@chello084010009007.chello.pl] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090313 19:28:16< mordante> I also think breaking compatibility now is not a problem after 1.6 it will be
20090313 19:43:21-!- busfahrer [n=busfahre@unixboard/user/busfahrer] has quit ["leaving"]
20090313 19:43:56< Sirp> ugh this whole AI thing is such a mess. :(
20090313 19:44:19< Sirp> I would really like to work on it deeply this weekend, but I'm moving in a week and then starting a new job....and.... :-/
20090313 19:45:08< boucman> :(
20090313 19:45:40< mordante> :-(
20090313 19:49:39-!- Turuk_ [n=Turuk@FUSE-WS1-208-102-202-188.fuse.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090313 19:53:52< boucman> wesbot: seen alink
20090313 19:53:52< wesbot> boucman: The person with the nick alink last spoke 3d 10h ago.  12h 50m ago they left with the message: Remote closed the connection
20090313 19:53:58< boucman> :(
20090313 19:57:21-!- Turuk [n=Turuk@wesnoth/forumsith/turuk] has quit [Connection timed out]
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20090313 20:01:39< Soliton> fendrin: it seems a little weird to me that for hero vs captain we have bolas vs leadership. (why bolas!?) do you think it is important balance wise or maybe rather use armor-clad or so instead of bolas?
20090313 20:04:51< Ivanovic> bolas also slow IIRC
20090313 20:04:59-!- Blueblaze [n=Blueblaz@c-98-199-143-139.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090313 20:06:27< Soliton> yes, which is pretty nice. but you have as many units with bolas as you like anyway.
20090313 20:06:40< Ivanovic> :)
20090313 20:10:31-!- cjhopman [n=chris@wesnoth/developer/cjhopman] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"]
20090313 20:23:56-!- Chusslove [n=caslav@brsg-d9befb86.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090313 20:24:58< Chusslove> Is there a separate artists channel, or I should shoot here?
20090313 20:25:22< zookeeper> here
20090313 20:25:34< boucman> Chusslove: you can shoot here for generic questions, but our artists mainly communicate via the forum (to be able to post content)
20090313 20:25:36< zookeeper> depends on what you intend to shoot, though.
20090313 20:26:06< Chusslove> I'm wondering if I could get the hold of "sources" for the BfW logo image (as it appears during loading and on main menu).
20090313 20:26:24< zookeeper> jetryl might have those
20090313 20:26:36-!- ilor [n=user@wesnoth/developer/ilor] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090313 20:27:01< zookeeper> so best might be to PM him on the forums
20090313 20:27:18< Chusslove> Will do, thanks.
20090313 20:27:30< zookeeper> or here, if you prefer, but he's offline atm.
20090313 20:28:00< Soliton> (no, he isn't.)
20090313 20:28:08< zookeeper> well, afk then. whatever
20090313 20:28:57< Chusslove> Right, then, a tougher question...
20090313 20:29:28< Chusslove> Would it be possible to get a SVN access, for working on translation? :)
20090313 20:29:42< zookeeper> translators don't need svn access
20090313 20:30:07< zookeeper> http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/WesnothTranslationsHowTo
20090313 20:30:09< boucman> Chusslove: there is a translation ML, Ivanovic is our translation coordinator
20090313 20:30:21< Chusslove> I did the most of Serbian translation, and it gets kind of boring to send full POs to ivanovic each time I spot and fix a small problem...
20090313 20:30:31< zookeeper> oh, right.
20090313 20:32:07< Chusslove> Hm, I did miss to note existence of wesnoth-i18n, should join.
20090313 20:42:06-!- Lord_Aether [n=castle@207.212.136.10] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090313 20:46:49< Ivanovic> ettin: around?
20090313 20:47:03< Ivanovic> ettin: how does the stuff in website/start/1.6 *really* work?
20090313 20:49:39< Chusslove> Soo... Would it be against policy to get SVN account primarily for sake of working on translation?
20090313 20:49:49< CIA-70> ivanovic * r33608 /website/start/1.6/ (index.html.zho po/zho.po): updated Chinese (Simplified) announcement translation
20090313 20:49:53< Ivanovic> Chusslove: yes
20090313 20:49:55< Chusslove> (I mean, in the past I did pass a few patches regarding the embetterment of i18n in general, but for such stuff I wouldn't honestly need write access.)
20090313 20:50:04< Chusslove> Ok, gotcha.
20090313 20:50:20< Ivanovic> the problem mainly being stuff like conflicts
20090313 20:50:31< Ivanovic> conflicts when uploading a pot-update and stuff like this
20090313 20:50:40< Ivanovic> since they are *really* ugly to resolve
20090313 20:58:16< Ivanovic> ettin: okay, i just created a symlink to the checkout at start/1.6 and it seems to work
20090313 21:09:12-!- alink [n=alink@wesnoth/developer/alink] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090313 21:09:14< ettin> Ivanovic: looks like I arrived right on time
20090313 21:09:20< alink> hi
20090313 21:09:31< ettin> Ivanovic: do you need anything else? ;)
20090313 21:09:39< mordante> hi alink 
20090313 21:09:56< alink> hello mordante
20090313 21:10:08< boucman> hey alink
20090313 21:10:21< Ivanovic> ettin: just check that everything is just the way it should be
20090313 21:10:48< alink> 'lo boucman, looking for me ?
20090313 21:11:06< boucman> yup 
20090313 21:11:14< boucman> can you easily reproduce your bug  ?
20090313 21:12:00-!- isaac [n=isaac@173.Red-79-154-223.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090313 21:12:05< Ivanovic> ettin: and please check if the list of languages i added does work this way
20090313 21:12:11< alink> boucman: I think so, at least the undo after canceling of attack was relatively reliable
20090313 21:12:18-!- isaac [n=isaac@14.Red-88-26-177.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090313 21:12:32< ettin> Ivanovic: btw, do you know you can use `make -j N` to speed things up?
20090313 21:12:54< Ivanovic> for the websites this is not needed, it takes close to zero time
20090313 21:13:02< Ivanovic> how to do so for the manual, there is *IS* needed...
20090313 21:13:10< boucman> alink: you added your line just over the declaration of the unit_animator
20090313 21:13:21< Ivanovic> there it complains about a missing jobserver and thus only runs with a single thread
20090313 21:13:43< boucman> could you try to move it down, one line at a time, until the declaration of target_time and tell me which places fix your bug ?
20090313 21:13:55< boucman> (dichotomizing the place will probably be enough
20090313 21:14:07< ettin> Ivanovic: already in my TODO...
20090313 21:14:26< alink> boucman: ok, trying it that now and i have a regular test case 
20090313 21:14:38< boucman> thx
20090313 21:15:28< Ivanovic> and, grml, we need screenshots for the announcement...
20090313 21:15:50< ettin> Ivanovic: (remember when I told you I wasn't feeling very well, a few days ago? it took longer than expected to get better)
20090313 21:15:58< mordante> you volunteered a few weeks ago ;-)
20090313 21:16:00< Ivanovic> oh
20090313 21:16:03< Ivanovic> i hope you are well again
20090313 21:17:34< mordante> freim any luck with the new gui images?
20090313 21:19:25< zookeeper> hmh, i took a couple of screenshots a few days back
20090313 21:19:35< zookeeper> Ivanovic, i'll PM those to you, you can figure out which ones to use
20090313 21:20:12< Ivanovic> zookeeper: better mail them
20090313 21:20:14< Ivanovic> is easier
20090313 21:20:14-!- stikonas [n=stikonas@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
20090313 21:20:41< freim> mordante: no, not sure how to proceed yet
20090313 21:20:53< alink> so, am i the only one who see bug #13179
20090313 21:21:00< alink> wesbot: bug 13179
20090313 21:21:01< wesbot> Bug #13179  Assigned to: Jérémy Rosen <boucman>  Status: None  Priority: 5 - Normal
20090313 21:21:04< wesbot> Summary: Unit's move have sometimes a jumpy start
20090313 21:21:07< wesbot> Original submission: At normal speed, the first hex is sometimes skipped. I be
20090313 21:21:09< wesbot> lieve it's cpu related, because it happens more with my -O0 build.
20090313 21:21:12< wesbot> URL: https://gna.org/bugs/?13179
20090313 21:21:15< wesbot> Attached file (1st): https://gna.org/bugs/download.php?file_id=5420
20090313 21:21:33< boucman> alink: probably not, but since there was something similar in 1.4 I assume lot of people don't report it
20090313 21:21:43< alink> ah ok
20090313 21:21:54< zookeeper> Ivanovic, ok, sending..
20090313 21:22:08< mordante> freim, ok
20090313 21:22:43< zookeeper> i've seen jumpy unit movement lately which wasn't there before. i guess i should retest in case it's still there.
20090313 21:23:01< zookeeper> (during the last couple of weeks i think)
20090313 21:23:41< boucman> zookeeper: I've introduced and fixed that bug in 1.5.11/12 IIRC
20090313 21:24:13< zookeeper> ok, great
20090313 21:25:45-!- cjhopman [n=chris@wesnoth/developer/cjhopman] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20090313 21:37:26-!- sylecn [n=sylecn@resnet-50-116.dorm.utexas.edu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090313 21:43:09< sylecn> I'm compiling 1.6rc2, is wesnothd intent to be build and installed by default? It's so for the SCons, but no agreed with INSTALL file. Will most user need wesnothd?
20090313 21:43:50-!- silene1 [n=plouf@AMarseille-251-1-6-230.w83-113.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090313 21:46:18< alink> boucman: ok, that is a bit hard to tell with my O2 build, but using my O0 where the bug is more obvious, the lowest safe place seems to be just before 
20090313 21:46:26< alink> int target_time = animator.get_animation_time_potential();
20090313 21:46:40< boucman> hmm
20090313 21:47:37< boucman> coult you test just before the "wait_until" line ?
20090313 21:48:07< alink> btw, note that even with my patch, the start of the move is not perfectly smooth (making it hard to judge), but at least it seems to fix the backward teleport glitch
20090313 21:48:09< alink> ok
20090313 21:48:29< alink> I think i already did, but retrying
20090313 21:49:29< alink> no, just before the "wait_until" line, i have again some short backward move. testing it with O2 now
20090313 21:49:50< boucman> that is weird
20090313 21:50:11< boucman> please test betweed the target_time= and the "if" line
20090313 21:50:18-!- governor [n=chatzill@bas4-hamilton14-1168058650.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090313 21:50:31< Soliton> sylecn: you need it for lan games.
20090313 21:51:17< loonycyborg> sylecn: "Host networked game option" in Multiplayer runs wesnothd.
20090313 21:51:38< sylecn> Soliton, ok, i see
20090313 21:56:42< alink> boucman: you are right, seems weird to me, but placing new_animation_frame() between the 2 get_animation_time_potential() seems to work too
20090313 21:58:11< alink> which make no sense
20090313 21:58:12< boucman> hmmm
20090313 21:58:19< boucman> it sort of does,
20090313 21:58:22< boucman> let me think some more
20090313 21:58:58< boucman> your call changes the result of get_animation_time_potential
20090313 21:59:08< alink> ah ok current_ticks is changed
20090313 21:59:38< boucman> so the if becomes "true" 
20090313 22:00:03< boucman> and at this point, you are so late on the animation that wait_until returns immediatly if target_time isn't increased
20090313 22:00:06< boucman> thus fixing the bug
20090313 22:00:56-!- silene [n=plouf@wesnoth/developer/silene] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090313 22:01:04< boucman> alink: you can safely add your code before the "int target_time" line
20090313 22:01:14< boucman> I'll look deeper into it post 1.6 release
20090313 22:02:06-!- Lord_Aether [n=castle@207.212.136.10] has quit []
20090313 22:02:38< alink> ok, so that doesn't risk to break anything? (that change was a wild guess, which by luck fixed the worst case of the bug)
20090313 22:03:25< boucman> alink: it makes one call to SDL_delay per hex traversed when moving
20090313 22:03:39< boucman> it's a minor perf hit, but a once per hex is unnoticeable
20090313 22:03:39< CIA-70> mordante * r33609 /trunk/ (8 files in 3 dirs): 
20090313 22:03:39< CIA-70> The message dialog no longer uses a magic value.
20090313 22:03:39< CIA-70> Before the width offset of the map was hardcoded, now it uses the actual
20090313 22:03:39< CIA-70> map size so the magic value is no longer needed.
20090313 22:03:46< boucman> (one per redraw would be another matter)
20090313 22:05:08< alink> ok, and since the glitch seems to mainly affect slow computer, that seems a valid change to do
20090313 22:05:43< mordante> Blueblaze, just committed the fix for your issue
20090313 22:05:46< alink> btw, later this evening, i will test RC2 on Pentium 400 to see how it work
20090313 22:08:55< alink> wesbot: log 33610
20090313 22:08:58< wesbot> alink * r33610 : Fix bug #13179 "Unit's move have sometimes a jumpy start"
20090313 22:09:01< wesbot> URL: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth?view=rev&rev=33610
20090313 22:09:08< alink> boucman: committed ^
20090313 22:09:29< boucman> thx
20090313 22:10:52< alink> boucman: thanks for the review and about animation bug, did you noticed bug #13181
20090313 22:10:57< alink> wesbot: bug 13181
20090313 22:10:58< wesbot> Bug #13181  Assigned to: None  Status: None  Priority: 5 - Normal
20090313 22:10:58< wesbot> Summary: Unit temporary disapear if move_unit_fake need a scrolling
20090313 22:10:58< wesbot> Original submission: During the scrolling, the unit is not visible. This doesn
20090313 22:10:59-!- kitty_ [n=kitty@wesnoth/artist/kitty] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090313 22:11:01< wesbot> 't happen with 'real' moves, only with move_unit_fake.
20090313 22:11:04< wesbot> URL: https://gna.org/bugs/?13181
20090313 22:11:17< boucman> hmm
20090313 22:11:23-!- cjhopman [n=chris@wesnoth/developer/cjhopman] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
20090313 22:11:25< boucman> nope hadn't noticed this one...
20090313 22:11:28-!- cjhopman_ [n=chris@wesnoth/developer/cjhopman] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090313 22:11:41< alink> i tried to look what was different with real move, but didn't find it
20090313 22:12:02-!- grzywacz [n=grzywacz@wesnoth/developer/grzywacz] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090313 22:12:31< alink> probably the dummy unit stuff, but i don't see why it don't work
20090313 22:13:08< boucman> the dummy unit is not on the map...
20090313 22:13:47< alink> yeah I know but i don't understand why it's visible on normal rendering, but not during the scrolling
20090313 22:14:13< boucman> it's not on the map, so it can't be visible
20090313 22:14:27< boucman> it's the "original unit" not the fake one that has a problem
20090313 22:15:36< boucman> basically the WML probably does the following
20090313 22:15:40< boucman> 1) hide the original unit
20090313 22:15:48< boucman> 2) call move_unit_fake
20090313 22:15:55< boucman> 3) move the real unit through WML
20090313 22:16:10< boucman> and we have redraws before 2 is ready
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20090313 22:16:37< alink> ah yes the WML may hide the real unit, i didn't tought about that when reading the c++ code
20090313 22:16:53< boucman> alink: I got tricked by that sort of stuff already...
20090313 22:17:03< boucman> do you have an easy test case available for that bug ?
20090313 22:17:19< alink> yes see my bug report  ;)
20090313 22:17:24< boucman> simply moving the if(!invisible) block after temp_unit.set_hidden should fix it
20090313 22:18:04< boucman> alink: I would be gratefull if you could test, I'm can't give much time to wesnoth right now...
20090313 22:18:55< alink> boucman: ok, i experiment with your suggestion and keep you posted if i fail to fix it
20090313 22:19:11< boucman> ok, thx
20090313 22:25:55< CIA-70> alink * r33610 /trunk/src/unit_display.cpp: 
20090313 22:25:55< CIA-70> Fix bug #13179 "Unit's move have sometimes a jumpy start"
20090313 22:25:55< CIA-70> by applying a small variant of the patch posted in the bugreport
20090313 22:30:02< grzywacz> hi
20090313 22:30:09< alink> hi grzywacz
20090313 22:31:38< mordante> hi grzywacz 
20090313 22:31:53 * mordante loves to break Wesnoth :-)
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20090313 22:33:46< alink> grrr, setting scrolling speed on minimum right before a sequence of dialogs between opposite leaders is a *bad* idea :-(
20090313 22:34:38< alink> it's very long, and i don't see any hotkey to help
20090313 22:35:06< alink> except shift but my acceleration was also set to <1.0
20090313 22:37:06< alink> ah almost found it (dezooming) but the already started scrolling seems to somehow  ignore the new zoom level 
20090313 22:37:13< CIA-70> mordante * r33611 /trunk/data/gui/default/window/wml_message.cfg: Properly balance braces.
20090313 22:38:54< grzywacz> hey mordante, alink :)
20090313 22:39:01< mordante> night
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20090313 22:41:52< YogiHH> Ivanovic: http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/SoC_Ideas_Savegame
20090313 22:43:42< YogiHH> Ivanovic: Do you think this is sufficient or does it provide too many details already? I copy-pasted it from Formula AI mainly, and i noticed that we provide a couple of details that we expected the applicants to think about by themself (like milestones and deliverables)
20090313 22:44:39< YogiHH> s/think about by themself/think about by themself last year
20090313 22:45:36< YogiHH> Ivanovic: I will add some more links to further information later
20090313 22:47:57< YogiHH> Ivanovic: I also added a section within the GSoC overview page
20090313 23:03:18-!- noy [n=Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit []
20090313 23:04:42< zookeeper> would this be too big and complicated for a SoC idea? basically, implement a new replay system so that you could at any time instantly enter a "replay mode", in which you'd have some kind of a timeline-like GUI widget with which you could skip to any previous turn (or even individual actions) to watch what happened. like for example, if you're afk while your opponent plays his turn, you can easily check what he did when you come back. just a
20090313 23:04:54< zookeeper> (i've talked about that before, i know, but can't remember the response)
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20090313 23:05:59< alink> a sort of super undo ?
20090313 23:06:21< zookeeper> no, not undo, just the ability to _view_ the replay history in real-time
20090313 23:07:12< YogiHH> zookeeper: this was implemented through FOSDEM ;-)
20090313 23:08:03< YogiHH> zookeeper: although due to the string freeze it is a little sloppy :-)
20090313 23:08:09< zookeeper> hmh?
20090313 23:08:45< YogiHH> zookeeper: there are start and stop commands in the file menu, iirc
20090313 23:09:03< zookeeper> YogiHH, yes, i know
20090313 23:09:20< YogiHH> zookeeper: they do basically what you suggested
20090313 23:09:49< zookeeper> i doubt that
20090313 23:09:50< YogiHH> zookeeper: uh, no, not quite, just the last sentence
20090313 23:09:54< alink> I think he means be able to play the replay in reverse, so you can rewind 1 turn without needing to go back from start
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20090313 23:10:01< YogiHH> yeah
20090313 23:10:25< alink> which seems hard with the current implementation of replay
20090313 23:10:39< YogiHH> i am afraid, but this is a complete change of the whole gameplay engine and a mission impossible for a GSoC student
20090313 23:11:08< alink> the undo system seems closer to that, thus my super undo name suggestion 
20090313 23:11:10< YogiHH> replays are designed to be forward only at the moment
20090313 23:11:10< Chusslove> Ivanovic: Now while browsing wesnoth-i18n archive I've seen the solution for localized images in the manual...
20090313 23:11:29< zookeeper> well, ok, i guess that answer will do :P
20090313 23:11:49< YogiHH> ;-)
20090313 23:11:56-!- happygrue [n=Wintermu@wesnoth/developer/wintermute] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090313 23:12:24< zookeeper> it's one of the features i've always dreamed about
20090313 23:12:51< YogiHH> yes, same here
20090313 23:13:08< alink> note that if a super optimization of replay could allow to replay "from start to previous turn" in a reasonable time....
20090313 23:13:23< zookeeper> having easy access to all the information that you've had. like if you're looking away from your screen while your opponent moves his wose, you can rewind and check where it went, since you're supposed to be able to know :)
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20090313 23:13:37< Chusslove> Ivanovic: I wonder if the -x.y.z to images is supposed to be of help to translators to know when an image has changed?
20090313 23:14:15< happygrue> zookeeper: which feature?
20090313 23:14:26< happygrue> if it's what I think then I agree....
20090313 23:14:29< YogiHH> alink: i guess that would only be possible by storing gamestates after each turn. Replays can be made fast but not that fast IMO.
20090313 23:15:54< zookeeper> happygrue, log?
20090313 23:15:55< alink> YogiHH: seems memory expensive but maybe we could store only diff between gamestates of each turn
20090313 23:16:22< YogiHH> alink: either that or save to disk
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20090313 23:19:14< YogiHH> hmmm, the more i think about it, it might even be feasible...
20090313 23:19:28< alink> yeah I always wanted to try that, a sort of quick reload which doesn't need to read the whole main cache again
20090313 23:20:10< alink> mmh, it will need to detect what need a refresh or not
20090313 23:21:26< YogiHH> alink: well, you could start with the "store everything" method and then switch to diffs, once that works
20090313 23:28:15< YogiHH> Dragonking, how much time has a GSoC student altogether for his project?
20090313 23:30:16-!- Turuk [n=Turuk@wesnoth/forumsith/turuk] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090313 23:31:13< alink> YogiHH, zookeeper: and what do you think of the other way (improve undo power), store more stuff in undo action, like gamestate change/diff. Never clear it but after undoing  a non-legaly-undoable action swith to some observer mode when you can't change your actions
20090313 23:31:16< YogiHH> hi Turuk
20090313 23:31:40< alink> thus allow to undo enemy move, but not being able to change what happen
20090313 23:33:01< alink> Never clear it = never clear the undo stack
20090313 23:33:37< YogiHH> alink: that is possible, but it will restrict you to smaller jumps, unless you are willing to accept having to wait a longer time
20090313 23:34:23< alink> well I think that was the zookeeper's request, just rewind few actions
20090313 23:34:49< alink> ah no he also wanted a timeline
20090313 23:35:51< alink> it will depend how fast we can execute these undo
20090313 23:36:52< YogiHH> alink: I suppose faster that "quick replay" in multiplayer, though probably not much
20090313 23:36:53< alink> but more I think about it, more is seems a maintenance hell, undo are already a bit annoying and any current and future engine features will need to be undoable
20090313 23:37:19< ilor> I'd like a generic undo system like what I have in the editor
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20090313 23:38:06< YogiHH> alink: well, undo would have to change in nature. You won't undo single actions (that's really hard, think of a unit dying), but instead undo changes to the gamestate
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20090313 23:38:29< YogiHH> alink: that should be feasible and not so sensitive to future engine changes
20090313 23:38:51< ilor> so every action is an object that can modify the gamestate and return a reverse action
20090313 23:39:03< YogiHH> yes, something like that
20090313 23:39:18< alink> YogiHH: yes indeed, seems reasonale without trying (or even look the code) ;-p
20090313 23:41:36< YogiHH> ilor: i still favour bigger chunks of undo than single action, though.
20090313 23:42:13< YogiHH> ilor: events for example are not recorded fully for replays atm and can make single action stuff very tricky
20090313 23:42:24< ilor> YogiHH: well, in the editor I deal with that by having a container action that does many actions
20090313 23:42:26< alink> and in debug mode, allow to undo a lost fight and retry it :-)
20090313 23:42:56 * YogiHH chokes
20090313 23:43:36< YogiHH> ilor: the problem is that for this kind of stuff replays don't contain enough information atm
20090313 23:43:57< YogiHH> ilor: the gamestate on the other hand is complete
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20090313 23:44:20< ilor> yeah well that'd prbably require a lot of engine changes
20090313 23:44:32< YogiHH> definitely
20090313 23:45:20< alink> remind me this blogpost of this nice indie game http://blog.wolfire.com/2009/02/how-we-implement-undo/   (about undo implementation, but not very deep)
20090313 23:46:08< alink> btw that's a cool devblog to read if you like this kind of things
20090313 23:46:28< alink> (devblogs not undo)
20090313 23:47:30-!- noy [n=Noy@d75-157-52-251.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090313 23:47:51< alink> and about indie game, "Braid" has also a nice undo system which is the core of its gameplay
20090313 23:48:42< YogiHH> zookeeper: your wish about replays looks a lot more feasible now, but without having checked, my gut feeling tells me this is still too big for GSoC
20090313 23:51:45-!- cjhopman_ [n=chris@wesnoth/developer/cjhopman] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090313 23:54:24< alink> boucman: i can't fix the move_unit_fake bug 13181 just by playing with hidden stuff (and doesn't seems to come from WML). Also i start to suspect an animation bug, because it seems that move_unit_fake a gryphon doesn't animate his wings (see same test case as in bug report)
20090313 23:54:55< boucman> alink: I'll try to look at it asap
20090313 23:55:03< boucman> please assign to me so I can easily find your test case
20090313 23:55:10< alink> ok thanks because  i am about to leave now
20090313 23:55:16< alink> and i assign it to you
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--- Log closed Sat Mar 14 00:00:40 2009