--- Log opened Thu Mar 26 00:00:43 2009
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20090326 02:09:49< happygrue> ilor: one comment about the lobby:  we generally discourage people from holding long winded conversations in the lobby, and encourage them to move it into a game
20090326 02:10:13< happygrue> though that is largely because the lobby is easily cluttered, so perhaps witha  good chat interface that would not be a problem
20090326 02:10:22< Soliton> not really an issue anymore if we have rooms though.
20090326 02:10:24< happygrue> but as it is now, it drowns out people looking to actually play games
20090326 02:10:26 * happygrue nods
20090326 02:10:34< happygrue> I agree
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20090326 02:11:03< happygrue> Soliton: integrating IRC sounds amazingly nice, though it seems to be something of a pipe dream?
20090326 02:11:22< Soliton> yeah.
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20090326 02:11:54< Soliton> the irc bot thing would probably be fesable though.
20090326 02:12:06< happygrue> Soliton: what exactly would it be able to do?
20090326 02:12:15< happygrue> I  wasn't clear on that from reading the log
20090326 02:13:09< Soliton> well, we could make it so when you message it it relays it to the lobby for example. or even allow executing commands through it.
20090326 02:13:21< happygrue> that would be nice
20090326 02:13:50< happygrue> I have been increasingly tempeted to bug your for access (ssh I assume?)
20090326 02:13:54< Soliton> actually it could just pick up whatever is said in the lobby channels.
20090326 02:14:05< happygrue> but with a bot like that I wouldn't need to
20090326 02:15:36< Soliton> to check logs or issue commands without wesnoth?
20090326 02:16:52< Blueblaze> oh yay Soliton is back :O
20090326 02:16:59< happygrue> yes, I would do some moderation without starting wesnoth
20090326 02:17:28< happygrue> and it seems like some things (like the motd) are better done that way
20090326 02:17:43< happygrue> but it is really minor
20090326 02:18:12< Soliton> well, do you know anything about working with linux and/or the command line?
20090326 02:18:26< noy> happygrue: I've asked that before and its not going to happen.
20090326 02:19:36< happygrue> I do, but I know enough to know how little I know.  I have used linux on and off for years, and I can navigate, but I would not give me root access any time soon.
20090326 02:22:19< noy> Soliton: there is a Gsoc hopeful asking questions about formula AI in  #wesnoth-dev ... maybe you can help him 
20090326 02:22:20< happygrue> Soliton: I guess there is really no reason for me to have access, since anything I would do would be minor - any real issues you would need to deal with anyway
20090326 02:22:30< happygrue> I have just thought about it in the past
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20090326 02:27:01< Soliton> noy: Crab seems to have it covered.
20090326 02:29:07< happygrue> hehe, everyone wants to gain experience by messing with the AI it seems...
20090326 02:29:51< Blueblaze> happygrue: Feels like every day some potential student for SoC wants to work on the AI
20090326 02:29:58< Blueblaze> For which almost none of them have any/much experience
20090326 02:30:23< Blueblaze> And, as well, iirc something that Sirp said a student would more than likely not get picked for
20090326 02:32:35< noy> This guy has some education in this area. 
20090326 02:32:43< noy> So I wouldn't count him out. 
20090326 02:46:52< Blueblaze> Soliton: How do you move text to the next line when setting the MotD?
20090326 02:47:27< Soliton> Blueblaze: you can't do that from wesnoth only in the config file.
20090326 02:48:34< Blueblaze> Ah, I thought so but wasn't totally sure
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20090326 11:18:30< zookeeper> urgh, i wonder how this lessluck formula should actually work. i don't dare to start a discussion on the forums though ;)
20090326 11:18:48< voris> haha
20090326 11:20:57< zookeeper> i was thinking something simple like this: if you miss and your cth was >50%, you get +10% cth. if you hit and your cth was >50%, you get -10% cth, etc.
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20090326 11:21:46< zookeeper> but then that needs a special case for 50% cth to prevent luck streaks against 50% defense units
20090326 11:28:04< voris> It would need to be logarithmic. It should never hit 100% :)
20090326 11:29:43< zookeeper> the problem is that i'm not good at all with mathematical stuff like this where i have to think of multiple things at the same time
20090326 11:30:25< zookeeper> i can only adjust the cth for a side when that side's unit hits or misses, and i have the information of what his natural and modified cth were.
20090326 11:31:17< zookeeper> but i'm getting really confused as to how exactly should i at that point determine whether to adjust the cth and which way.
20090326 11:33:01< voris> This is a serious proposal?
20090326 11:34:10< zookeeper> umm, yeah, i'm making a lessluck era.
20090326 11:34:52< voris> Interesting.
20090326 11:37:57< voris> If you have a less than 50% cth are you going to get a bump from misses also or only for 51% or greater base cth units?
20090326 11:38:25< zookeeper> no idea
20090326 11:39:13< ilor> I'm afraid you'd end up disrupting the balance quite a bit
20090326 11:39:38< ilor> regardless of how you implement the less luck, possibly more so if there are hard cutoffs for some bonuses
20090326 11:39:47< zookeeper> sure
20090326 11:39:54< zookeeper> it's just something for luck whiners to play
20090326 11:40:21< ilor> ah, I see
20090326 11:42:16< voris> Maybe 10% of the difference between 100% and current effective cth is added with each miss.
20090326 11:42:53< voris> Round to floor, of course.
20090326 11:44:57< zookeeper> and 10% of current effective cth reduced with each hit?
20090326 11:45:08< voris> Yeah.
20090326 11:45:21< voris> round to ciel there.
20090326 11:45:27< voris> :)
20090326 11:47:40< voris> If you care about addressing the "four of my guys attacked him and no hit?" complaint, you could maybe also have units lose terrain defense each time they face an attack, resetting that at end of turn.
20090326 11:48:06< ilor> keep in mind that imo a theoretical unit with 100% cth should hit always
20090326 11:48:11< zookeeper> nah, i want to do it by invisibly adjusting the cth behind the scenes
20090326 11:48:49< ilor> uh yeah that 10% of the difference would deal with that, but a 0% cth should always miss, too
20090326 11:48:53< zookeeper> i don't want there to be any visible gameplay changes in this one, just seemingly "less luck"
20090326 11:49:08< zookeeper> (of course whoever knows how it works can game it)
20090326 11:49:40< voris> ilor: Well I think by always taking 10% of diff and rounding toward the middle you avoid ever hitting 100% or 0%
20090326 11:50:16< voris> Which was kind of why I suggested that instead of simply adding or subtracting bumps of 10
20090326 11:50:56< voris> Although I do like the idea that 100% and 0% should still allow for "critical" hits and misses.
20090326 11:50:59< zookeeper> i guess i could do that, but it'd be technically much easier to just use static bumps
20090326 11:51:22< zookeeper> having some checks that it can't be bumped to 0 or 100 wouldn't be a problem
20090326 11:51:30< ilor> but won't that make low-cth units get a very high effective cth?
20090326 11:51:58< voris> It will make their initial jumps larger.
20090326 11:52:03< zookeeper> i suppose
20090326 11:52:11< voris> But still make them jump slowly since you get only 10% of the diff.
20090326 11:52:23< voris> But, for the crowd this is designed to serve...
20090326 11:52:29< voris> seems a good idea that way. :)
20090326 11:53:12< voris> I think static jumps with a floor and ceiling you can't get below/above is just as good.
20090326 11:54:09< zookeeper> ok, so...err, how exactly should the static bumps work then?
20090326 11:55:08< voris> I think probably you get someone with less than 50% cth, they're not whinging about "how'd I miss?!"
20090326 11:55:26< voris> So maybe only apply to 50% or more.
20090326 11:56:22< voris> Bump it up 10% each miss, if bumped value > 95%, bumped value = 95%
20090326 11:57:49< voris> Each hit drops 10%, floor 5%.
20090326 11:58:29< voris> I guess you need to apply drops for hits to low cth units though. Otherwise you get the lucky streak of 3 hits from a 20%cth unit and bitching ensues.
20090326 11:58:44< zookeeper> ok, and when checking whether the cth is higher or lower than 50%, is it the natural or modified value which is checked?
20090326 11:59:16< voris> I think base cth needs to be used to check eligibility for the bump program.
20090326 11:59:49< voris> Although I'm making an assumption that this resets turnwise...
20090326 12:00:25< zookeeper> i don't think it should reset. i currently have one variable per side holding that side's cth modifier, it's kinda convenient.
20090326 12:00:36< voris> ah
20090326 12:00:40< voris> that makes sense actually.
20090326 12:01:24< voris> Maybe you just apply it to anyone, screw worrying about eligibility.
20090326 12:06:27< zookeeper> so the bumps happen regardless of cth?
20090326 12:06:33< voris> Or an interesting idea would be to make the base cth determine how big a bump they get for misses and how big a hit they get for hits. 40% base cth bumps by 4, drops by 6; 60% bumps by 6, drops by 4.
20090326 12:06:58< voris> Yeah.
20090326 12:07:18< voris> This is the crowd that thinks enough tries should eventually lead to success.
20090326 12:07:38< zookeeper> i guess i'll go for that then
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20090326 15:45:35< happygrue>  http://wesnoth.yi.org/statistics/ is down I guess?
20090326 15:56:10< happygrue> zookeeper: if you don't reset at the end of turn then there is at least *potential* danger of a small bug destroying things over the course of a game.  OR perhaps just as bad, a 'perception' of a bug and the era 'not working'
20090326 15:56:24< happygrue> we are tlaking about people who pay very close attention to 'fairness' after all ;)
20090326 15:56:42< happygrue> though it would make sense for it to carry over, I agree.
20090326 16:00:12< happygrue> zookeeper: I would be keen to play a game with you after you get it working :)
20090326 16:08:29< zookeeper> happygrue, sure
20090326 16:08:47< zookeeper> actually i _think_ it's working already
20090326 16:09:27< zookeeper> err, well, actually not...but soon enough it should ;)
20090326 16:11:04< happygrue> heh
20090326 16:11:40< happygrue> well, as long as I can win all my games without RNG screwing me over then I guess it is working?
20090326 16:11:45< happygrue> ;)
20090326 16:11:57< zookeeper> indeed ;)
20090326 16:17:01< voris> heh
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20090326 17:46:19< Mythological> I know I've asked this before, but where can I find the logs of the MP server lobby? I can not find them on irclogs.wesnoth.org
20090326 17:47:27< Soliton> wesnoth.org/irclogs
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20090326 17:48:29< Mythological> thanks, soliton
20090326 17:49:17< Mythological> mind if I add that address to the channel topic?
20090326 17:49:28< Soliton> nope.
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20090326 18:56:59< ilor> Soliton: I have an idea for the irc idea (duh) regarding server lobby and moderation, though most likely beyond the scope of gsoc
20090326 18:58:23< ilor> Soliton: coding an irc server in wesnoth doesn't make much sence imo. Ditto grabbing some opensource solution and including it in our source. However, we could have a wesnothd-communication module for an existing irc daemon
20090326 19:00:29< ilor> this would mean wesnothd has a special interface for communicating with the module, and if we want an irc mirrored lobby and all, we just fire up the modified irc server and point it at the inteface.
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20090326 19:21:53< Soliton> ilor: so wesnothd would be an irc client?
20090326 19:22:17< ilor> I was thinking more like a special module for an existing irc server
20090326 19:22:38< ilor> so it'd mirror the room and player structure into channels and users
20090326 19:22:45< ilor> but this would be optional
20090326 19:23:02< ilor> so if someone didn't want an irc server they are not forced to
20090326 19:23:56< Soliton> ok, optional would certainly be the way to go, yes.
20090326 19:29:16< Soliton> so, instead of including ircd source into our code what you mean is we write a wesnothd module for an ircd.
20090326 19:30:24< Soliton> makes sense.
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20090326 23:08:46< ilor> Soliton: do you know what the "metaservers" bit on http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/SoC_Ideas_Multiplayer_server means?
20090326 23:10:17< Soliton> ilor: a meta server is a probably server that just has a list of available normal servers.
20090326 23:10:48< Soliton> usually more useful for games where a server just hosts one game.
20090326 23:11:41< ilor> I'm not sure I get how that would be useful, but I have an UI idea for that ;)
20090326 23:12:17< Soliton> probably why it is in the group of not useful ideas. ;-)
20090326 23:12:39< Soliton> "Other ideas we are not yet convinced are good"
20090326 23:13:14< ilor> a "change server" button in the lobby, that displays the known servers, a horizontal line with "private servers follow, not officially supported blah blah", and then the servers registered in the current instance
20090326 23:13:22< ilor> Soliton: yeah. I was curious what it meant ;)
20090326 23:14:19< Soliton> yeah, that'd work but really there are no private serves to speak of.
20090326 23:14:44< grzywacz> I think there are. Like, Hungarian community supposedly has one.
20090326 23:15:05< Soliton> yeah, Rhonda also runs one for debian versions.
20090326 23:15:17< Soliton> but i doubt it's much used.
20090326 23:15:41< grzywacz> Could be used for failover situations of sorts.
20090326 23:15:51< Soliton> don't know about the hungarian one but presumably a room system with language specific rooms would eliminate the need for it.
20090326 23:16:05< grzywacz> possibly
20090326 23:16:24< Soliton> well, we have two alternates as failover.
20090326 23:16:41< ilor> this metaserver idea won't work for failovers anyway
20090326 23:17:08< grzywacz> Soliton, hardcoded in game perhaps?
20090326 23:17:21< Soliton> grzywacz: that's what they are.
20090326 23:17:27< grzywacz> ok
20090326 23:17:56< Soliton> it's not automatic failover if that's what you mean. that'd be difficult...
20090326 23:18:25< grzywacz> Well, if we designated 2 servers as official ones and made client try to connect to 1st of them, then to the 2nd if that failed?
20090326 23:18:26< ilor> a metaserver could also be a simple service that returns a list of servers when asked
20090326 23:18:29< grzywacz> Silly, but...
20090326 23:18:52< ilor> and the game could be made to ask for the server list when showing the connect to mp server list
20090326 23:19:09< ilor> it adds another layer into all this and I'm not convinced it's all that necessary
20090326 23:19:18< grzywacz> That adds an another point of failure though.
20090326 23:20:14< ilor> the client could have a hardcoded list like it has now and only use the metaserver as a supplement
20090326 23:20:27< grzywacz> true
20090326 23:20:45< ilor> it'd be low on the priority list anywa
20090326 23:20:46< ilor> y
20090326 23:20:59< Soliton> grzywacz: just for connecting? yeah that sounds like a good idea, i guess.
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--- Log closed Fri Mar 27 00:00:52 2009