--- Log opened Wed Mar 25 00:00:04 2009
--- Day changed Wed Mar 25 2009
20090325 00:00:04< Elvish_Pillager> okay, so the drakes should go kick their undead butts again
20090325 00:00:30< Taliesin_> That's too much, and the Elves make it clear that if the Drakes don't sort out the undead that are apparently following them, the Elves will hold them responsible. Long story short, the Undead get through just as Firin gets back.
20090325 00:00:53< Elvish_Pillager> the Elves are pretty dumb.
20090325 00:01:27< Taliesin_> I dunno, seems pretty smart to me if you've got a bunch of fire-breathing monsters on the one hand and an undead horde on the other.
20090325 00:01:52< Elvish_Pillager> No, they're pretty dumb to divide the non-Undead forces when there's an unkillable lich on the loose.
20090325 00:02:16< Taliesin_> The Lich hasn't actually turned up though. It's just a buttload of basic undead.
20090325 00:02:48< Elvish_Pillager> so, let's see
20090325 00:02:49< Taliesin_> The Drakes COULD try and convince the elves but... Would you believe a fire-breathing monster that's led a bunch of abominations right to you?
20090325 00:02:57< Elvish_Pillager> the elves plan to blame the drakes for the undead that randomly show up to attack
20090325 00:03:09< Elvish_Pillager> I think they're mainly just being racist
20090325 00:03:25< Taliesin_> Probably. Elves are arrogant jerks though; it's part of being an elf.
20090325 00:03:32< Elvish_Pillager> yeah
20090325 00:04:03< Elvish_Pillager> so then they decide to go straight through the elvish forest?
20090325 00:04:09< Taliesin_> Besides, it's pretty easy to include the Drakes trying to explain and only making it worse for themselves, like revealing the undead are after them.
20090325 00:04:41< Taliesin_> No, not through it. You try and go through an entire forest of elves, you get torn apart. But they DO need to cut a path to Firrin before they can leave, after which it's just a matter of flying away.
20090325 00:04:55< Taliesin_> Unfortunately, there happens to be a bunch of ticked-off elves between them and Firrin.
20090325 00:05:43< Elvish_Pillager> so they reckon it's a better idea to fight a bunch of ticked-off elves in their own forest than to fight a week's worth of shabby undead sent by a dude who doesn't even own a castle.
20090325 00:06:32< turin> an army of drakes can't just fly away anyway, Clashers don't have functional wings. ;)
20090325 00:06:38< Taliesin_> No... They reckon it's better to cut through a group of elves to save one of their own, then flee, rather than fight an undending horde of undead abominations, commanded by a Lich with unknown resources.
20090325 00:07:02< Elvish_Pillager> Killing monsters only helps you level up!
20090325 00:07:26< Taliesin_> Yes... Until they kill you.
20090325 00:07:44< turin> but you get full HP every 50 XP or whatever AMLA is nowadays
20090325 00:07:53< Taliesin_> I think it's around 120.
20090325 00:08:02< Elvish_Pillager> turin, the cost starts at around 100 and goes up every time you AMLA
20090325 00:08:12< Taliesin_> Plus, this is a drakes-only force; no Saurians need apply.
20090325 00:08:13< Elvish_Pillager> doesn't stop me from getting +15 HP heroes though :P
20090325 00:08:29< Elvish_Pillager> Clashers are drakes
20090325 00:09:28< turin> though I suppose if the Drakes coming to the Great Continent from Mogodor or whatever their island was called was possible, you can just ignore the fact that Clashers have only vestigial wings
20090325 00:09:32< Taliesin_> It does mean no healers though.
20090325 00:09:53< turin> point being, drakes suck, I hope your campaign burns and dies, I'm going to dinner now. :P
20090325 00:09:55< Taliesin_> Quite. If you have a high enough Drake-to-clasher ratio, you can always jsut carry them.
20090325 00:10:00< Elvish_Pillager> This Lich seems pretty dumb too. He just got his butt kicked by a much of fire-breathing monsters, and instead of either going elsewhere OR trying to get his castle back, he sends a bunch more minions off after a small group of them?
20090325 00:10:28< Elvish_Pillager> Building the harnesses to carry a bunch of clashers would take more time than you have ;)
20090325 00:11:11< Taliesin_> Mostly he's hoping to recruit Firrin, who's proved that he's intelligent (keeping the books instead of burning them), skilled (killing the Lich's apprentice) and he's well known as... Unconventional, by Drake standards.
20090325 00:11:37< Elvish_Pillager> Trying to kill him seems like a great way to recruit him!
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20090325 00:12:14< Taliesin_> they're not, actually. Once they reach Firrin, tthe Lich would speak to him through his minions.
20090325 00:12:32< Elvish_Pillager> They wouldn't reach Firrin. There's an army of elves in the way, remember?
20090325 00:12:51< Taliesin_> Any problem can be solved by throwing enough corpses at it!
20090325 00:13:05< Elvish_Pillager> So the lich's force is _more powerful_ than the Elves?
20090325 00:13:20< Taliesin_> Well, it's more powerful than the few elves on the edge of the forest, yeah.
20090325 00:13:54< Taliesin_> Once the elves in the rest of the forest get off their butts and realise "oh hey, battle!", the tide turns. By then the Drakes have left though.
20090325 00:14:07< Elvish_Pillager> Did the lich _know_ when Firin was going to come out of the forest?
20090325 00:14:41< Elvish_Pillager> because if he didn't, then why did he attack while Firin was still in the forest? And if he did, then why didn't he wait until he was actually out?
20090325 00:14:44< Taliesin_> No... This was mostly just when he had the forces to make an attack viable.
20090325 00:15:01< Taliesin_> If Firin hadn't turned up, he DOES have a battle-brother that would make a good hostage.
20090325 00:15:35< Elvish_Pillager> so the Elves know that the Undead are after the Drakes...
20090325 00:15:50< Elvish_Pillager> ...but they aren't content with letting the drakes fly away, thereby leading the undead elsewhere?
20090325 00:16:07< Taliesin_> By that point, they've got an undead horde mostly committed to attacking them.
20090325 00:16:12< Taliesin_> Or at least, part of one.
20090325 00:16:18< Elvish_Pillager> the undead horde has no reason to attack the elves
20090325 00:17:08< Taliesin_> Except that it's already engaged. I imagine the Lich would cut his losses and retreat whatever he could, but you can't just disengage from a pitched battle. It's smarter to leave a rearguard behind to delay your enemy- especially if your troops are fearless.
20090325 00:17:28< Elvish_Pillager> the undead horde never had a reason to attack the elves in the _first place_
20090325 00:17:59< Elvish_Pillager> and the elves said that they didn't want to engage the undead horde, right?
20090325 00:18:02< Taliesin_> They got in the way. That and, what, you expect the Elves to just sit there while a steaming crapload of Undead sits on the edge of their lands?
20090325 00:18:51< Elvish_Pillager> so the elves hate the undead and want to kill them?
20090325 00:19:19< Elvish_Pillager> but they're still going to complicate their battle plan by attacking a bunch of fire-breathing monsters that could just as easily be on their side?
20090325 00:19:43< Taliesin_> Who DOESN'T hate undead and want to kill them? Undead are abominations against everything natural! Unless Wesnoth is RADICALLY different in that regard, that's part of what being Undead IS.
20090325 00:20:19< Elvish_Pillager> the elves could be the type that say "I hate those guys but I'll ignore anyone who doesn't try to mess with my forest"
20090325 00:20:47< Elvish_Pillager> it's not usually a good strategic decision for elves to charge out of their forests to fight against powerful enemies :P
20090325 00:21:09< Taliesin_> The Undead are already pushing into the forest to get to Firrin, remember?
20090325 00:21:27< Elvish_Pillager> already, when?
20090325 00:21:35< Elvish_Pillager> I thought it was like this:
20090325 00:21:47< Elvish_Pillager> firin is in the forest, his buddies are outside. The undead show up outside.
20090325 00:21:57< Taliesin_> Correct so far.
20090325 00:22:08< Elvish_Pillager> the Elves immediately say "hey! you weren't supposed to let the undead show up!" and start attacking everybody.
20090325 00:22:21< Taliesin_> Oh.
20090325 00:22:22< Taliesin_> No.
20090325 00:22:26< Elvish_Pillager> Okay, what happens next?
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20090325 00:23:12< Taliesin_> The Elves say "The hell? Okay, you led these guys here, you clean up your own damn mess. They get in our forests, we'll consider it time to drop the hammer and dispense indiscriminate ass-whupping"
20090325 00:23:22< Elvish_Pillager> ah.
20090325 00:23:34< Elvish_Pillager> While they're leading Firin out of the forest, right?
20090325 00:23:44< Taliesin_> While Firrin is finding his own way out, rather.
20090325 00:23:47< Elvish_Pillager> okay.
20090325 00:24:21< Elvish_Pillager> So is that when the drakes on the outside charge into the forest?
20090325 00:25:22< Taliesin_> No, the Undead break through the Drakes and push into the forest to get to Firrin. The Elves make good on their promise to dish out pain to any and all intruders once this happens, including Firrin, which his battle-brother Bellemor won't allow.
20090325 00:25:33< Taliesin_> THEN the drakes charge in to rescue Firrin and get the hell out of dodge.
20090325 00:26:14< Elvish_Pillager> was Bellemor with Firrin, or ont the outside?
20090325 00:26:58< Taliesin_> Bellemor was outside, with the main force of drakes. The Elves made sure of it; that way, they could hold Firrin hostage in exchange for Bellemor keeping the rest of the Drakes in line.
20090325 00:28:02< Elvish_Pillager> So why did the Undead enter the forest?
20090325 00:28:30< Taliesin_> To get to Firrin, who the Lich wants to make an offer of recruitment to.
20090325 00:29:10< Elvish_Pillager> so he's willing to annoy a powerful group of Elves?
20090325 00:30:11< Taliesin_> He's a Lich. He OOZES arrogance; besides, all he's expending is a bunch of worthless drones, and by the time the Elves have chewed through them he'll be long gone.
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20090325 00:30:44< Elvish_Pillager> I see...
20090325 00:30:54< Polarina> Nemalvivo estas la plej ega raso! :D
20090325 00:32:29< Taliesin_> Of course, if you've got this many problems with the story so far, I dread to think what you'd make of the Drakes next step...
20090325 00:32:33< Elvish_Pillager> Doesn't make a good campaign villain though; as far as the Elves know, this Lich just attacked them for the sake of attacking them, so they'll want to go out and get rid of him.
20090325 00:32:58< Taliesin_> He's not meant to be the campaign villain. The campaign isn't about vanquishing a clear villain, actually.
20090325 00:33:18< Taliesin_> The campaign is more about the knowledge Firrin discovered.
20090325 00:33:26< Elvish_Pillager> I mean, it seems like the lich and the elves will be a little irrelevant after the drakes get out of there
20090325 00:33:32< Elvish_Pillager> that's what you want?
20090325 00:34:35< Taliesin_> Well, they'll still keep following, because I intend the Elves to win the battle, since without Firrin there, the Lich will just withdraw. But like I said, the campaign isn't about beating a specific foe.
20090325 00:35:32< Elvish_Pillager> well, given the option between hunting down some drakes that you randomly attacked because you're a racist, and hunting down a Lich that just attacked you and is clearly a serious threat, what do you do?
20090325 00:35:49< Polarina> Why are all the languages frozen out when I attempt to switch languages?
20090325 00:35:50< Taliesin_> Depends how you represent it.
20090325 00:36:12< Taliesin_> For one thing, the Elves only know there's a bunch of undead following the Drakes. They don't necessarily know there's a Lich involved.
20090325 00:36:26< Elvish_Pillager> the Drakes didn't tell them?!?!
20090325 00:36:46< Taliesin_> They tried. I doubt they'd get the chance to finish.
20090325 00:36:58< Elvish_Pillager> so, let's see
20090325 00:37:09< Elvish_Pillager> the Elves let this guy into their forest and translated his book for him
20090325 00:37:13< Elvish_Pillager> but they wouldn't exchange news?
20090325 00:38:30< Taliesin_> Firrin had other things on his mind. He also didn't know that the Lich would be coming, and when he's heading back, he doesn't know what's going on. All he knows is that suddenly the Elves are hostile and his fellows are coming.
20090325 00:39:00< Elvish_Pillager> surely the elves would ask where he got this book.
20090325 00:40:11< Taliesin_> Oh yes, tell the Elves you got the book from the castle of an undead monstrosity who is still walking around and likely to seek revenge. That'll REALLY convince them to let you stick around. 
20090325 00:40:27< Elvish_Pillager> so what DOES he tell them?
20090325 00:41:31< Taliesin_> Baiscally? That he's come seeking knowledge. He's tight-lipped about details. At a guess, he'd make up a story about finding them buried in the clan-halls.
20090325 00:41:55< Elvish_Pillager> Sweet! a campaign where the hero is not only a fire-breathing monster...
20090325 00:42:08< Elvish_Pillager> ...but a fire-breathing filthy stinking liar monster.
20090325 00:42:30< Taliesin_> Sure. Not every protagonist is a hero.
20090325 00:43:04< Taliesin_> Bellemor probably qualifies for the term though, since he's generally trying to make the best of a bad situation.
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20090325 00:46:04< Taliesin_> But Firrin? Yeah. He lies. He cheats. He fights dirty. He's OBSESSED with the knowledge he's uncovered, and he's basically manipulating Bellemor to further his own ends.
20090325 00:47:57< Taliesin_> To be fair, it's understandable. He's not strong or much of a fighter, which I figure makes him little better than dirt in Drake society, so given that he's found a way to become powerful... It doesn't make what he does RIGHT, mind. Just possible to understand.
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20090325 01:13:41< faryshta> How can I install the repo for wesnoth in Ubuntu?
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20090325 01:30:13< faryshta> How can I add the repos for wesnoth 1.6 on Ubuntu?
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20090325 06:35:57< Kek_> Anyone have a torrent for 1.6a Windows binary?  Sourceforge keeps killing the transfer after a few megs
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20090325 09:02:57< shreedhar> hi all. complements on the 1.6 release. But i find, 1.6 to have some serious performance issues. 1.4 was smooth on my pc using ubuntu 8.10. same machine, same OS - there is a lot of lagging in the graphics. Anybody else having similar perf issues?
20090325 09:08:31< zpmorgan> me too
20090325 09:09:11< zpmorgan> ~90% cpu
20090325 09:09:34< zpmorgan> where it used to be as low as ~10%
20090325 09:09:44< zpmorgan> when idling
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20090325 09:14:47< shreedhar> yup
20090325 09:16:42< shreedhar> also the old forests used to look better? :)   sorry for carping guys. The new music tracks are excellent by the way. :)
20090325 09:17:31< shreedhar> is there any hardware acceleration used in 1.6? sdl-opengl bridge?
20090325 09:18:19< shreedhar> dunno, maybe it is time for hardware acceleration in wesnoth?
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20090325 17:41:18< SynrG> in all these years this is the first time i played TSG through.  nice final unwinnable-by-force scenario :)
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20090325 18:00:15< happygrue> SynrG: try the other branch now ;)
20090325 18:00:28< happygrue> the outlaw branch
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20090325 19:23:52< SynrG> happygrue: sure!
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20090325 19:27:04< SynrG> my son wanted me to do the outlaw branch, but i was doing well enough and figured i could do with out that alliance
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20090325 21:14:53< zookeeper> turin, which do you think is the bigger coward, rugnur or gweddry?
20090325 21:15:34< Polarina> All three on top of each other.
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20090325 21:16:06< turin> zookeeper: gweddry
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20090325 21:16:11< zookeeper> agreed!
20090325 21:16:15< turin> why?
20090325 21:16:31< turin> why the question, I mean
20090325 21:17:55< zookeeper> no particular reason
20090325 21:18:15< zookeeper> i just realized at some point that gweddry is a much bigger coward than i thought
20090325 21:18:34< turin> yeah, he really is.
20090325 21:18:44< turin> I don
20090325 21:18:47< turin> 't really like him
20090325 21:19:05< turin> Owaec is much cooler. :P
20090325 21:19:44< turin> BTW, what exactly is our policy on swearing on the forums?
20090325 21:19:48< zookeeper> like, what's the deal with trying to run away to some silly little island on a lake so you can "survive" while the rest of the land burns :P?
20090325 21:20:16< zookeeper> owaec would be cool if he didn't suck stats-wise ;)
20090325 21:20:29< turin> (I keep seeing reports by Crushmaster about words like "bitch" that IMO shouldn't really be censored)
20090325 21:20:43< zookeeper> eh, a policy of common sense i guess? like no f-words
20090325 21:21:07< zookeeper> no doubt crushmaster reports words which shouldn't be censored
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20090325 21:21:30< turin> what irritates me is that the reports sometimes get addressed by editing of the original post. :/
20090325 21:21:35< zookeeper> depends on the context of course, i can imagine "bitch" being used in many ways which shouldn't be tolerated on the forums ;)
20090325 21:22:18< turin> e.g. http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=24623 ; he made a report on the OP, then another one on where it was quoted by JW... the first one resulted in b*tch being changed to b****.
20090325 21:22:31< turin> things like this just bug me for some reason.
20090325 21:23:56< turin> you know how I came up with the name Gweddry right?
20090325 21:24:45< turin> recruiting human in a MP game till one got a name I liked.
20090325 21:24:50< turin> I'm not really attached to him as a character.
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20090325 21:28:33< zookeeper> yeah
20090325 21:33:59< zookeeper> turin, btw, i redid the EI duel/arena map entirely
20090325 21:34:21< zookeeper> not that you necessarily care much, just saying ;)
20090325 21:35:46< turin> I'll check it out
20090325 21:36:01< turin> at some point I should replay EI to see how different it is from when I stopped working on it. :P
20090325 21:36:43< turin> ooh, funky, what's with the illuminated pattern in the middle?
20090325 21:38:50< zookeeper> to negate the chaotic bonus in some places :p?
20090325 21:39:03< zookeeper> i guess the rationale would be some roof windows or whatever
20090325 21:42:40< zookeeper> i've somewhat started on rewriting captured
20090325 21:43:02< zookeeper> i mean, the beginning is just downright...uh, not so good ;)
20090325 21:44:32< zookeeper> gweddry is like standing at the entrance to the cave. then he figures that the guards are asleep. what, guarding him in the middle of a corridor? then he slips to some side corridor, where his pals are waiting for him. then he enemy leader talks to someone who claims that the prisoners were supposed to be "right here" even though gweddry was halfway across the map. like...uh...what. :P
20090325 21:46:33< zookeeper> not to mention the prisoner rescue. your troops are in a cell with an enemy guard at the door. your troops decide to break out, to which the guard replies with something like "huh, who's there?"
20090325 21:46:51< turin> yeah, it's a weird scenario, I like the concept but not the execution
20090325 21:47:06< turin> I could never get it to really make sense. I chalk it up to "Wesnoth scenarios aren't realistic anyway".
20090325 21:47:27< zookeeper> well, i think it can be made in a lot more sane way nowadays, which is what i'll try
20090325 21:47:31< turin> I mean, you're in danger and when your leader reaches the signpost suddenly you're all safe?... I don't think anything in Captured is that much worse than that.
20090325 21:47:47< turin> but go ahead and try to fix it, it can certainly stand improvement.
20090325 21:50:21< zookeeper> sure
20090325 21:51:06< zookeeper> how old is the campaign anyway?
20090325 21:51:42< turin> first half of 2004, roughly
20090325 21:51:57< zookeeper> thought so
20090325 21:52:01< turin> so almost five years
20090325 21:52:13< turin> I barely recognize it as something I wrote. :P
20090325 21:55:54< zookeeper> i take it that you mean it as a good thing ;)
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20090325 22:02:57< happygrue> turin: I edited that b**** comment
20090325 22:03:05< happygrue> I agree, it is not something I would care about
20090325 22:03:25< happygrue> but my thinking is, if someone files a report, we can err on the side of not being offensive
20090325 22:04:48< turin> happygrue: yeah, I can see why you'd edit it, it just irks me... I personally would have deleted those reports and not edited the posts
20090325 22:05:19< happygrue> perhaps that is the way to go
20090325 22:05:42< happygrue> anyway, I am off for a bit.  You could bring it up in the moderators forum if you want it to be addressed
20090325 22:05:49< turin> happygrue: I figure censoring unnecessarily is probably worse than having a few mild profanities on the forums
20090325 22:05:57< turin> happygrue: but I don't care enough to make a big deal of it
20090325 22:06:15< happygrue> turin: I won't argue with that.  I wish we did not get reports about such things
20090325 22:06:26< happygrue> but turuk will deal with it most of the time, so bug him :P
20090325 22:06:33< happygrue> that will 'get it done' I think
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20090325 22:06:47< happygrue> ok, bye for now :)
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20090325 22:08:37< turin> (afk)
20090325 22:10:47< morphles> Two (i think important) things are not mentioned in manual, and maybe someone could answer me. Sometimes a hex has double terrain or something like that, i.e. river fiord flat+shallow water. So which one determines movement cost and witchone defense?
20090325 22:15:00< Soliton> depends. usually it's best defense worst movement.
20090325 22:15:10< nital> If someone answers morphles's question, I have one rather strongly connected. Isn't it a bug that the vampire bat line has 40 % defense in all villages but swamp and underwater, where it has 60 %?
20090325 22:15:27< Soliton> no.
20090325 22:15:56< nital> what's the logic behind it?
20090325 22:16:06< morphles> that thing about multitype hexses should be mentioned somwhere
20090325 22:16:55< morphles> also what about frozen forest (iirc such things exist, dont they?:) ) amush still works there ?
20090325 22:17:10< Soliton> yes.
20090325 22:17:30< morphles> well this one is what i expected :)
20090325 22:18:22< morphles> but double hexes can confuse people i guess (but also it's a nice thing i think) just such cases should be described
20090325 22:18:25< morphles> also
20090325 22:18:47< morphles> one thing i dont get: why hide undiscovered units from help??
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20090325 22:37:55< zookeeper> morphles, to avoid overwhelming all the total newbies
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--- Log closed Thu Mar 26 00:00:43 2009