--- Log opened Wed Apr 01 00:00:00 2009
--- Day changed Wed Apr 01 2009
20090401 00:00:00< Dragonking> Hide is reasonably impossible with candidate moves and fallback to default AI.
20090401 00:00:20< Dragonking> ONly moving out of enemy range could be done in such case.
20090401 00:00:30< Dragonking> And it makes this unit useless in terms of attack situation.
20090401 00:00:42< Crab_> it's better than *free xp* )
20090401 00:00:53< Dragonking> The it is useless gold. :)
20090401 00:01:23< Crab_> yes, if the AI can't use them, it shouldn't even recruit them.
20090401 00:01:42< Crab_> it needs to be tested - are they of any good
20090401 00:01:43< Dragonking> Depends on a opponent.
20090401 00:01:48< Dragonking> They are.
20090401 00:01:51< Dragonking> Against undeads.
20090401 00:01:55< dfranke> esr: Go ahead and revert that commit.  I'd do it myself but I'm at work right now.
20090401 00:02:14< dfranke> esr: Obviously the introduced bug is a lot worse than the fixed one.
20090401 00:02:23< Crab_> Dragonking: can we try to solve this the way around ? make a formula AI function to *hunt* berserkers
20090401 00:02:27< Dragonking> Even sacrificing ulf against mage gives AI advantage.
20090401 00:02:31< dfranke> esr: I'll add a more finely-targeted fix later.
20090401 00:02:49< Crab_> Dragonking: and then put our various berserker ideas against that berserker-hunting ai )
20090401 00:03:00< esr> dfranke: Will do.
20090401 00:03:11< Dragonking> I'm more fan of doing it different.
20090401 00:03:21< Dragonking> Test various berserker AIs against myself.
20090401 00:03:44< Crab_> this is good, too ) but unfortunately, not automated )
20090401 00:04:02< Dragonking> I would not really trust berserker-hunting AI
20090401 00:04:13< Dragonking> Cause objective of the game is not to hunt berserkers.
20090401 00:04:26< Dragonking> And objective of the berserker is not to not get killed.
20090401 00:04:53< boucman> Dragonking: such an AI could help debug an algorithm that attempt to protect a given unit (which would be usefull in many ways)
20090401 00:05:15< Crab_> yes. but if we are to judge the efficiecy of computer usage of berserkers, we need to put it against an opponent who has at least a general idea (=candidate move(s)) useful against them.
20090401 00:05:22< Dragonking> boucman: I can agee with that. :)
20090401 00:06:02< Crab_> becides, the current AI is quite good at figuring ways to kill units )
20090401 00:07:08< Crab_> btw, if we make a clone of default_ai with a modified power_projection routine (which takes berserker vulnerability into account), it may fare better with them
20090401 00:08:35< Crab_> for current default AI basically checks 'is that spot save?' by trying to determine 'how much damage can attackers do to unit on it?"
20090401 00:08:40< Crab_> this fails badly for ulfs
20090401 00:08:48< Crab_> s/save/safe
20090401 00:09:49< Dragonking> Crab_: True. But generally ULF should be screened like any mage or special non-elusivefoot unit.
20090401 00:10:20< Crab_> but the *screening* moves must be considered.
20090401 00:10:29< Dragonking> True.
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20090401 00:10:54< boucman> a generic "screening" move that would be applied to mages/healers/a couple of others would be a usefull addition
20090401 00:11:09< Crab_> btw, for testing leadership/berserkers - do not add additional scenarios, please use that Ai arena
20090401 00:11:09< Dragonking> So I believe both berserker screening and for example mentioned by boucman healer improvement is not really good task for candidate moves, but should be considered more generally while designing whole AI
20090401 00:11:26< res|laptop> Ivanovic: alright, I set some milestones.
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20090401 00:11:41< Dragonking> Screening algorithm is really complicated but needed thing for an AI.
20090401 00:11:45< Crab_> yes, they need messing with turn sequence
20090401 00:11:45< Ivanovic> res|laptop: will have a look at stuff tomorrow
20090401 00:11:54< Ivanovic> i am off to bed now, n8
20090401 00:11:57< res|laptop> gn
20090401 00:12:43< Velory> Ivanovic:  gn8
20090401 00:14:41< Crab_> and ulf's make recruitment decisions hard, too )
20090401 00:14:54< Dragonking> Only a bit.
20090401 00:15:55< Crab_> I see a problem comparing an ulf against those enemy units who <ulf during day and >ulf during night
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20090401 00:16:05< Dragonking> Recruitment is whole different thing.. if we were splitting AI into small pieces, then for each piece one SoC would not be enough prolly
20090401 00:16:07< Dragonking> :)
20090401 00:16:48< Crab_> but it is not enough to *split* into pieces - it is also needed to assemble something useful out of them )
20090401 00:17:00< Dragonking> True.
20090401 00:17:08< Dragonking> I;m only trying to ilustrate the problem.
20090401 00:17:15< Dragonking> i.e ulf improvement.
20090401 00:17:19< Crab_> yes, you are right 
20090401 00:17:31< Crab_> but the goal is to make it better than today.
20090401 00:18:26< Dragonking> But also good deaign is important, not ln "goal is to make better" - there are various ways of improving things, not all are desired tho, or good for further developing.
20090401 00:19:30< Crab_> ( and, for example, if you compare Velory's poisoning script and default ai poison handling - you'll see the difference in that specific situation; although it's is still not perfect )
20090401 00:19:34< Dragonking> Some things can't be just split into candidate moves and need coordination between differnt units.
20090401 00:19:38< Crab_> yes
20090401 00:19:56< Dragonking> I think poisoning and scouting are good examples of candidate moves usage.
20090401 00:20:16< Dragonking> ANd I believe that healing is not.
20090401 00:20:21< boucman> Dragonking: candidates move can be used for simple coordinated moves (like moving a leader and attacking as a simple move)
20090401 00:20:35< Dragonking> True.
20090401 00:20:39< YogiHH> night everyone
20090401 00:20:42< Crab_> night
20090401 00:20:44< Dragonking> night Yexo 
20090401 00:20:48< Dragonking> YogiHH :)
20090401 00:20:51< YogiHH> :-)
20090401 00:20:56< boucman> healing can be done for a simplified handling
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20090401 00:21:15< boucman> moving healer next to fighting units+moving heavily wounded units next to healer
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20090401 00:21:32< Crab_> becides, one of the goals of ai is not to be challenging, but to be entertaining to play against
20090401 00:22:05< Dragonking> I myself find it entertaining when it is acting in clever way, not stupid. :)
20090401 00:22:21< Crab_> in mp -yes, but in campains -that a bit different
20090401 00:22:28< Crab_> s/campains/campaigns
20090401 00:23:09< Dragonking> Campaigns AI is different than MP AI in many ways.
20090401 00:23:48< Crab_> a scenario designer can throw as many stuff as he wants to, at a poor player. and the ability to specify some *cool* moves (like 'all gather around the leader and heal) without *scripting* them is good for scenario developer
20090401 00:24:16< Crab_> even if those moves are not optimal for combat 
20090401 00:25:37< Dragonking> Well, this "all gater around unit and heal" would be most terrible possible move durin 99% of MP games.
20090401 00:25:41< Crab_> yes 
20090401 00:26:00< Crab_> but SP often has different needs )
20090401 00:26:08< Dragonking> I know and I said that. :)
20090401 00:26:14< Velory> :)
20090401 00:26:26< Dragonking> And that's why general SP ai, and MP AI should be different.
20090401 00:26:52< Dragonking> We need to have specified set of good MP optons that improve AI.
20090401 00:27:02< Crab_> there are many things that can be reused both in SP and MP (related to the knowledge of the ai about the game)
20090401 00:27:11< Dragonking> True.
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20090401 00:27:35< Crab_> but then their paths start to diverge..
20090401 00:27:44< Dragonking> I think recruting is one of such "generig" things about the AI.
20090401 00:27:57< Velory> generig ?
20090401 00:28:11< Dragonking> general
20090401 00:28:15< Velory> Oh
20090401 00:28:25< Dragonking> So it may work well with both SP and MP
20090401 00:28:28< Crab_> Dragonking: not recruiting, but base recruiting "primitives"
20090401 00:28:29< Velory> yes
20090401 00:28:57< Crab_> Dragonking: scenario editor may want to make the recruiting "good for flavor, bad for combat", for example
20090401 00:29:00< Dragonking> Also recruting would be quite easily tweakable too.
20090401 00:29:22< Crab_> Dragonking: yes, *tweakability* is key for SP
20090401 00:29:34< Dragonking> That's not a bog problem imho.
20090401 00:29:37< Dragonking> big'
20090401 00:29:41< Dragonking> It's a matter of design.
20090401 00:30:19< Crab_> it has implications. for example, base candidate move formulas do not respect base AI parameters such as aggression/caution/etc...
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20090401 00:31:01< Crab_> so, it's not that easy to tweak its behavior by single-line WML string...
20090401 00:31:09< Sapient> yo Crab
20090401 00:31:14< Crab_> hello Sapient
20090401 00:31:15< Dragonking> I did not say it will be single line WML string
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20090401 00:31:59< Dragonking> I think that trying to for example alter ai recruting by setting option like recruiting=interesting is impossible.
20090401 00:31:59< boucman> night all
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20090401 00:32:13< Dragonking> It is just too complex thing.
20090401 00:32:25< Crab_> Sapient, I was told that you are the person to talk about extending WML ? My use case: I want to delete all labels on the map (except, maybe, a fixed set of labels).
20090401 00:32:26< Dragonking> Some set of parameters to tweak is required
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20090401 00:32:47< Crab_> Dragonking: I think that it is possible. by *fooling* the AI.
20090401 00:33:13< Dragonking> Well, can really one paremater setup be called a "customization" ?
20090401 00:33:14< Crab_> Dragonking: for the recruitment is based about *knowlegge* about units, their parameters.
20090401 00:33:23< Sapient> Crab_: first, I'd extend [store_locations] to store loc.label
20090401 00:33:58< Crab_> Dragonking: and if we change the AI's perception of their parameters, it will calculate it's recruitment database a bit differently.
20090401 00:34:11< Dragonking> True, but it is more than single line of WML.
20090401 00:34:45< Dragonking> It should be quite easy to give bonus/malus to any unit/ability etc
20090401 00:34:55< Crab_> Dragonking: in many cases - such as 1 line ) "I_think_that_my_units_in_forest_have_20%_less_defence_than_usual"
20090401 00:34:59< Dragonking> Even specify what % of each unit should be in the army.
20090401 00:35:35< Sapient> Crab_: next, you could modify SLF behavior in terrain_filter.cpp to be able to filter based on label, e.g. label="$empty"
20090401 00:35:45< Dragonking> Like scenario designer wants to have an army with 20% archers 10% mages 70% warriors.
20090401 00:35:49< Dragonking> It would be trivial.
20090401 00:36:14< Sapient> Crab_: finally, I'd make [label] action understand SLF (if it doesn't already)
20090401 00:36:43< Crab_> Sapient: thanks
20090401 00:36:55< Sapient> np
20090401 00:37:59< Sapient> BTW, string manipulation and comparison is not too easy in WML at this point. until recently it was really impossible to do anything other than test string equality
20090401 00:38:10< Sapient> and concatenate
20090401 00:38:12< Crab_> Sapient: I also changed modify_side a bit, to allow my ai testing map to work, I've added a way to modify side AI, by redeploying it from specified file. question 1): how I should name such parameter ?  2) how can I disable this in MP ?
20090401 00:39:10< Sapient> modify_side is not disabled in MP
20090401 00:39:29< Sapient> I think it does issue a warning to the logger though
20090401 00:39:42< Dragonking> Ok, I need to go now, busy day tomorow.
20090401 00:39:46< Dragonking> Night everyone
20090401 00:39:53< Crab_> night, Dragonking
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20090401 00:41:38< Sapient> Crab_: the possibilities for WML cheats are limited only to the author's imagination... but it transmits the code into your savegame. competitive MP, if it's serious ladder matches, won't involve the AI
20090401 00:42:43< Sapient> I thought it was already possible to modify [ai] behavior with [modify_side] ?
20090401 00:42:54< Crab_> Sapient: only the ai_algorithm. 
20090401 00:43:15< Sapient> ok, as the implementer you get to choose the tag names for such a creature
20090401 00:43:23< Crab_> Sapient: but the AI= algorithm + parameters (such as candidate moves for formula_ai),..
20090401 00:43:50< Crab_> Sapient, now it looks like http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth/trunk/src/game_events.cpp?rev=34328&r1=34325&r2=34328
20090401 00:44:17< Crab_> "redeploy_ai_from_location"
20090401 00:44:44< Crab_> if that's ok, I'll leave this name as is. if it is not appropriate, tell me - and i'll rename
20090401 00:45:13< Crab_> and thanks )
20090401 00:45:28< Sapient> well, I know I did say that you can pick the name
20090401 00:45:41< Crab_> ok
20090401 00:45:41< Sapient> but "redeploy_ai_from_location" I think we can maybe do better than that :)
20090401 00:46:01< Sapient> I'd be glad to offer susggestions, once I figure out what that means
20090401 00:46:53< Crab_> it means "please remove the top-level ai from specified side, and load new ai configuration from file $file.
20090401 00:47:39< Sapient> ok, "location" is a poor choice because that word is used extensively for gamemap locations
20090401 00:48:06< Crab_> redeploy_ai_from_wml ?
20090401 00:48:18< Sapient> something like switch_side_ai
20090401 00:48:25< Sapient> or better, load
20090401 00:48:31< Sapient> since it is loading from a file
20090401 00:48:46< Crab_> switch is better. because it tells that current AI of side is "swapped out"
20090401 00:48:57< Sapient> ok, your choice
20090401 00:49:11< ilor> load is better. one letter less :P
20090401 00:49:19< ilor> no wait, two letters
20090401 00:49:23< Sapient> also "wml" is over-used all over the place
20090401 00:49:24< ilor> wins hands down, then
20090401 00:49:35< Crab_> so, let it be "switch_ai" then ?
20090401 00:49:42< Sapient> works for me
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20090401 00:49:44< Crab_> because we are in modify_side already 
20090401 00:49:51< Sapient> good point
20090401 00:50:18< Sapient> and it's nice and short :)
20090401 00:50:38< Crab_> ok, I'll change the name and commit.
20090401 00:51:26< Sapient> thanks, Crab
20090401 00:51:35< Crab_> np
20090401 00:51:39< Sapient> cya later, have fun.
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20090401 01:01:13< voris> I personally would favor load since it's loading from a file, fwiw.
20090401 01:01:58< voris> Somewhat more intuitively understood. But I see your point also. Just figured I'd throw my $0.02 in. :)
20090401 01:03:46< ilor> night everyone
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20090401 01:03:57< voris> Night, ilor.
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20090401 01:09:16< Velory> Good night everyone :)
20090401 01:09:24< Crab_> night, Velory
20090401 01:09:34< Velory> night,Crab_
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20090401 01:16:07< Sparks_> Hi Guys, I need to go to bed now, its late..  but if anyone is interested in commenting about my proposal for GSoC please have a read and do that..  Any help would be much appreciated :)
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20090401 01:37:12< CIA-30> esr * r34364 /trunk/src/playsingle_controller.cpp: 
20090401 01:37:12< CIA-30> Back out a change by dfranke that introduced bug #13298:
20090401 01:37:12< CIA-30> reproducible hang in dialog code. Tested.
20090401 01:39:23< CIA-30> crab * r34365 /trunk/ (2 files in 2 dirs): Renamed redeploy_ai_from_location to switch_ai in [modify_side]
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20090401 02:18:33< corn> gonna have something to show late tonight (read: 3-4 am)
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20090401 03:03:45< csaunders> anyone know a good svn client for Leopard?
20090401 03:05:51< Turuk> Versions is not bad
20090401 03:06:58< csaunders> that one you have to pay for eh?
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20090401 03:09:57< Turuk> Is it paid now? Hmph
20090401 03:10:04< Turuk> What about turtlesvn?
20090401 03:10:20 * Turuk is not sure what the name is of what he actually uses
20090401 03:11:25 * voris is a fan of terminal
20090401 03:11:27< voris> :P
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20090401 03:12:15< Turuk> Voris, I use terminal 90% of the time ;)
20090401 03:12:44< csaunders> i have the terminal one working... I guess I will learn how to use that one more :P
20090401 03:12:58< voris> I actually tend to use scripted sh most of the time, but fall back to terminal for ad hoc.
20090401 03:13:43< voris> I'd recommend getting comfortable with the terminal. It'll help you use the GUIs better since you'll better understand what they're trying to turn your clicks into. :)
20090401 03:14:17< csaunders> Heh.  Thanks. :D
20090401 03:14:26< csaunders> I am a little lost on the GSoC website...
20090401 03:14:35< csaunders> where do we go to actually apply?
20090401 03:17:59< voris> That I am clueless about.
20090401 03:18:06< csaunders> i found it
20090401 03:18:10< csaunders> it's a tad confusing
20090401 03:18:12< Turuk> http://socghop.appspot.com/student/apply/google/gsoc2009
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20090401 03:25:21< csaunders> Sirp: I've committed a bit of some code to a google code repository.  If you want you can look at it here, though most of the code there is stuff from the rails scripts.
20090401 03:25:54< csaunders> Sirp: here is the repository location, I will also add this to my submission page on the wesnoth wiki
20090401 03:26:02< csaunders> http://code.google.com/p/csaunderswesnothstats/
20090401 03:27:23< Sirp> csaunders: cool....is there a demo site with what you've done running?
20090401 03:27:43< csaunders> er... I have it running off my mac... I can try to get something up.
20090401 03:28:08< Sirp> that would be nice
20090401 03:28:41< Sirp> it'd be really difficult if we had to read over code of every student's submission without being able to see what they've actually done.
20090401 03:30:51< csaunders> Sirp: Right now it's just a test of the API that shows I am making calls to the google charts
20090401 03:31:04< csaunders> that and I have all that test data in the mysql db
20090401 03:32:31< Sirp> csaunders: okay, cool....
20090401 03:33:05< Sirp> csaunders: it would be cool if you could make it work nicely and show it off on the forums or something and get people excited about it. :)
20090401 03:33:14< Sirp> that'd give you the strongest possible chance of getting accepted.
20090401 03:33:36< esr> dfranke: I reverted the input blocker declaration; that did indeed abolish the bug.
20090401 03:33:57 * Turuk is in favor of more statistics
20090401 03:34:33< csaunders> Sirp: I'll see what I can do.  A lot of deadlines coming up and gotta balance em all, thats all.
20090401 03:36:29< csaunders> once I get this up, keep in mind it's running on a P3 machine :P
20090401 03:39:09< csaunders> alright... just need to open some ports, but it should be good to go :D
20090401 03:41:25< csaunders> Sirp: here it is.  I plan on adding more (with a UI) probably tomorrow
20090401 03:41:27< csaunders> http://csaunders322.servegame.org:3000/games/get/pie
20090401 03:41:43< csaunders> and there are a few controllers there too, games, units, and special_units
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20090401 03:43:51< Sirp> csaunders: so I see a chart....what is this charting?
20090401 03:44:19< csaunders> it's the number of campaigns beaten in a given day.
20090401 03:44:32< csaunders> I had a better one where it was distribution of game usage based on OS
20090401 03:44:40< csaunders> which is super easy to get back up if you want
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20090401 03:45:52< Sirp> csaunders: well surely you could put both up and perhaps start adding controls to let people filter by different criteria. :)
20090401 03:46:34< Sirp> csaunders: certainly btw this is cool....you have done far more than any other candidate for this particular project.
20090401 03:46:34< csaunders> I can definitely give it a shot.  I'll get back to you by thursday with some results hopefully.
20090401 03:46:51< Sirp> csaunders: that would be excellent.
20090401 03:47:11< Sirp> csaunders: you have certainly established yourself as a 'serious' candidate by doing this.
20090401 03:47:26< csaunders> Sirp: Well I was trying to do my own requests using Net:HTTP and such, and figured that there is someone else out there who had this same problem.
20090401 03:47:41< Sirp> csaunders: also when you get a chance, try and catch Rhonda and ask him about getting ssh access to our machine.
20090401 03:47:51< csaunders> Sirp: found this nice google chart API, clean to use and everything.
20090401 03:47:56< csaunders> hmm, alright.
20090401 03:48:19< csaunders> I use public keys, so it would be pretty simple for him(?)
20090401 03:48:24< Sirp> csaunders: ahh cool
20090401 03:48:41< Sirp> csaunders: yeah should be. Have to also make sure that the development tools (RoR?) you need are loaded.
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20090401 03:51:01< csaunders> the only 'odd' tool I use is gcharts
20090401 03:51:14< csaunders> the rest is vanilla rails
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20090401 03:52:45< csaunders> i also used my own database, because one of the columns in units had the title 'type' and rails didn't like that too much :S
20090401 03:53:31< dfranke> Sirp: got a minute?
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20090401 03:55:03< Sirp> dfranke: sure, what's up?
20090401 03:55:42< dfranke> Sirp: I want to get your input on what to do about a pair of bugs...
20090401 03:56:38< dfranke> Sirp: namely #9496 and #13298, which I introduced while trying to fix #9496 and esr reverted.
20090401 03:57:07< Sirp> okay...looking...
20090401 03:57:55< dfranke> Sirp: basically, we need a way to make sets of updates to the game state that are atomic with respect to saves.
20090401 03:58:01< happygrue> Sirp: Rhonda is not 'him', FYI  ;)
20090401 03:58:02< esr> dfranke: I think the idea of declaring an input blocker was likely correct, but you need to do it at finary granulkarity inside the init function.
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20090401 03:58:24< csaunders> happygrue: That is why I put the question mark :D
20090401 03:58:36< dfranke> esr: that's what I thought too, but after looking more carefully at what that function does, it's going to be tricky.
20090401 03:58:46< dfranke> esr: because it can fire arbitrary WML events.
20090401 03:58:53< happygrue> hehe. I know because I made the same error recently.
20090401 03:58:57< Sirp> happygrue: I have actually met Rhonda. :)
20090401 03:59:03< csaunders> happygrue: I read the name, and wasn't too sure :P
20090401 03:59:20< esr> Ah, right.  That would make things complicated.
20090401 03:59:29< dfranke> so, I propose five possible solutions to this, in order of increasing complexity:
20090401 03:59:30< happygrue> Sirp: ah, nice.
20090401 03:59:35< dfranke> 0. Ignore the problem.
20090401 04:00:03< dfranke> For all of 1-4, introduce an API call for marking the game state consistent and inconsistent.
20090401 04:00:07< dfranke> Then:
20090401 04:00:27< dfranke> 1. Just give an error if the user tries to save while the game is inconsistent.
20090401 04:00:53< Sirp> dfranke: okay....listening to your ideas... :)
20090401 04:00:55< dfranke> 2. Save an in-memory snapshot of the game state just before it goes inconsistent.  Use this for the save.
20090401 04:01:07< dfranke> This would be easy, but I worry about memory and performance.
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20090401 04:02:18< dfranke> 3. When the user tries to do the save, just go as far as opening the file and making sure it's writable, and that we don't get any errors up to that point.  Then lie about successfully saving.  As soon as the game state is consistent again, actually do the save.
20090401 04:02:20< Shadow_Master> mordante: (my code) it doesn't matter, now it is always compiled in indeed.
20090401 04:02:44< Shadow_Master> however it wasn't intentional at the time you stumbled upon it
20090401 04:03:04< dfranke> 4. Do all-out ACID transaction logging.
20090401 04:03:34< Sirp> dfranke: I don't like (2) because of the performance issues. I don't like (3) because it might be confusing. What if someone saved and then immediately quit? (which is common)
20090401 04:03:41< Sirp> dfranke: and I don't (0) because it's clearly a bug.
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20090401 04:03:54< Sirp> dfranke: so I think (1) is ideal unless someone is really enthusiastic about doing 4)
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20090401 04:04:15< Sirp> well (1) isn't "ideal". Just the "best choice available"
20090401 04:04:21< Shadow_Master> mordante: the NOP functor's interpretation is there for the sake of it, but I'm actually going to use its "real functor" component for something later
20090401 04:04:47< dfranke> I think I'll implement (1) and then look into (4).  It might not be really be all that hard.
20090401 04:05:23< Sirp> dfranke: sounds great to me; thank you for looking into this.
20090401 04:06:39< dfranke> (4) is definitely trunk-only though.
20090401 04:10:53< dfranke> Hmm, now I need to think of how to word this error message to neither confuse naive users nor condescend on sophisticated ones.
20090401 04:10:54< Sirp> yes, of course.
20090401 04:11:54< Sirp> dfranke: I suppose another approach would be to see if it's possible to not respond to the save command while the game is in an 'inconsistent' state and only do the saving once a consistent state is reached
20090401 04:12:05< Sirp> (i.e. set a flag "save as soon as the game is in a consistent state")
20090401 04:12:29< dfranke> Sirp: hmm...
20090401 04:12:33< Sirp> which is similar to (3), just that we only actually tell the user the game is saved when we reach the consistent state.
20090401 04:12:56< dfranke> Sirp: that would be confusing if they selected save through the menu, but probably okay if they used the hotkey.
20090401 04:13:20< dfranke> though I don't think it's humanly possible to open the menu and then select save within the race window.
20090401 04:14:45< Sirp> dfranke: perhaps we could display some kind of transient message...."save pending" or something
20090401 04:15:08< Crab_> Sirp: maybe, just change a cursor to some kind of hourglass ?
20090401 04:15:40< dfranke> Sirp: yeah, I like that idea.  I could use the chat display.
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20090401 04:15:56< dfranke> the open the save dialog once it's consistent.
20090401 04:16:00< dfranke> then*
20090401 04:16:55< Sirp> Crab_: but we generally like allowing people to perform most game functions during this time.
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20090401 04:17:58< Crab_> Sirp: it doesn't have to prevent people from performing other functions, through )
20090401 04:18:31< dfranke> okay, I like this.  And it's simple enough to be suited for 1.6.
20090401 04:19:25< Crab_> Sirp, like bottom-left one here - http://tinyurl.com/ck4h45
20090401 04:30:35< Sirp> Crab_: it still might confuse people though....and I think (thought?) we had an hourglass available already.
20090401 04:31:16< Crab_> ok ) You know better, after all ) and text message will be simpler to implement 
20090401 04:31:51< Sirp> I think switching to a hourglass is easy enough. Once someone hits save I think we could do that as well.
20090401 04:32:24< Sirp> it's just a call cursor::set(cursor::WAIT); to set the cursor to an hourglass cursor. :)
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20090401 04:33:59< Crab_> and the message will need translation )
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20090401 04:43:44< [Relic]> Hello :)
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20090401 05:45:57< Shadow_Master> Sirp: there?
20090401 05:54:05< Sirp> Shadow_Master: kinda.....what's up?
20090401 05:55:33< Shadow_Master> Sirp: if I have a class foo{};, is it possible to insert new foo objects into a std::vector without copy-constructing them?
20090401 05:56:21< Sirp> Shadow_Master: well you can use a vector<foo*>
20090401 05:56:31< Sirp> Shadow_Master: but if you have a vector<foo>, no, it is absolutely impossible.
20090401 05:56:38< Shadow_Master> argh. Got it :)
20090401 05:57:57 * Shadow_Master off
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20090401 05:58:24< karl_m> Hi, I'm an Australian student in the course http://cs.anu.edu.au/student/comp8440/ and I would like to help with the AI.
20090401 05:58:53< karl_m> I'm aware that there are several suggestions about this at the moment, including possibly some GSOC work, so I want to integrate as much as possible with others.
20090401 05:59:06< karl_m> I would like to help set up some sort of AI testing to help with the type of approach described here https://mail.gna.org/public/wesnoth-dev/2009-03/msg00069.html
20090401 05:59:19< karl_m> Any pointers? Ideas who I should talk to?
20090401 06:00:06< Sirp> hi karl_m 
20090401 06:00:12< Sirp> to begin with, how good are you with C++?
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20090401 06:01:12< karl_m> Hi. I've worked with C++, I knew the answer to that question you just answered, I can answer all the questions on the wiki
20090401 06:02:42< Sirp> good. good.
20090401 06:03:19< Sirp> karl_m: probably best then if you like John McNabb's idea is to write to him directly and ask him if he's working on his AI project still and if you can help him in some way
20090401 06:03:33< karl_m> ok cool
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20090401 07:04:06< karl_m> Hi I'm wondering how much work bug/FR #13158 would be to implement?
20090401 07:05:35< Sirp> karl_m: probably not too hard.....
20090401 07:05:38< Soliton> wesbot: bug #13158
20090401 07:05:39< wesbot> Bug #13158  Assigned to: None  Status: None  Priority: 5 - Normal
20090401 07:05:39< wesbot> Summary: Provide FormulaAI console mode
20090401 07:05:39< wesbot> Original submission: It would be useful if Wesnoth had a command-line option, 
20090401 07:05:42< wesbot> which I shall give the working name --formula, which would allow FormulaAI to in
20090401 07:05:43< Sirp> though certainly not trivial.
20090401 07:05:45< wesbot> URL: https://gna.org/bugs/?13158
20090401 07:07:49< karl_m> ok I will look into it
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20090401 08:17:18< CIA-30> ilor * r34366 /trunk/projectfiles/VC9/wesnoth.vcproj: vc9 projectfile update
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20090401 08:39:44< corn> dfranke: can I submit my changes to upload_log as a set of patches rather than as one big one? I have a patch done that adds logging to upload_log.cpp
20090401 08:40:44< Soliton> sure, a set of patches is preferable to one big patch.
20090401 08:40:52< dfranke> corn: yeah, break it up as much as you can, but don't drive yourself crazy.
20090401 08:41:08< corn> ok. I'll post it under the GNA bug in a few minutes
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20090401 08:42:14< corn> what was the commandline switch for setting logging to the most verbose state possible?
20090401 08:42:21< euschn> good mornig
20090401 08:42:29< Soliton> --log-debug=all
20090401 08:42:34< corn> Soliton: thanks
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20090401 09:04:53< corn> dfranke: you should have gotten an email
20090401 09:05:57< dfranke> corn: I got one from Gna, you refering to that?
20090401 09:06:01< corn> yeah
20090401 09:06:06< dfranke> k
20090401 09:06:08< corn> uploaded a simple patch that adds loggin
20090401 09:06:15< corn> next one that I'll upload, once I finish it
20090401 09:06:25< corn> will have the new build target and move the upload stuff unchanged into a new binary
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20090401 09:09:58< CIA-30> soliton * r34367 /branches/1.6/ (5 files in 3 dirs): * Implemented automatic saving of game replays.
20090401 09:10:05< dfranke> ok, perfect
20090401 09:10:28< dfranke> I might not have time before Thursday evening to review it, but I'll get to it then.
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20090401 09:10:36< corn> dfranke: sure, that's fine
20090401 09:10:44< dfranke> corn: and please remember to submit your proposal to socghop.
20090401 09:10:50< corn> socghop?
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20090401 09:11:14< YogiHH> hello everyone
20090401 09:11:15< dfranke> the site where you sign up for SoC
20090401 09:11:19< dfranke> socghop.appspot.com
20090401 09:11:19< corn> ah, ok
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20090401 09:12:04< Soliton> hey YogiHH, wesnothd can now automatically save replays. :-)
20090401 09:13:02< Soliton> YogiHH: maybe you can take a quick look at the latest commit and check what i all put into the replay... it was mostly trial and error but seems to work.
20090401 09:13:07< dfranke> corn: you can just copy from the wiki or give a link to it.
20090401 09:13:23< corn> ok
20090401 09:13:26< YogiHH> Soliton: ok
20090401 09:13:35< corn> is Sirp the mentor for the stats proposal?
20090401 09:13:42< corn> I should talk to him to improve my potential timeline
20090401 09:14:54< dfranke> Hasn't been decided.  But yes, you should.
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20090401 09:26:18< CIA-30> soliton * r34368 /trunk/ (5 files in 3 dirs): * Implemented automatic saving of game replays.
20090401 09:27:56< YogiHH> soliton: what's the goal of having those replays on the server?
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20090401 09:31:42< Soliton> YogiHH: could be used for moderation decisions or for the ladder to have a place for authentic replays, etc. (though that probably needs some interface for people to decide whether they want to publish their replay)
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20090401 09:34:39< Soliton> would help debugging as well, corrently there is apparently still some bug with players not properly leaving a game which is difficult to analyze just from the log.
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20090401 09:36:04< YogiHH> Soliton: i see
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20090401 09:48:39< CIA-30> zookeeper * r34369 /trunk/data/core/sounds/potion.ogg: Added a sound for drinking a potion.
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20090401 10:00:33< zookeeper> esr, the old markup syntax is still used at least in LoW (story= _ "@Kalenz
20090401 10:00:35< zookeeper> )
20090401 10:00:50-!- ishe [n=ishesh@117.192.225.42] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090401 10:01:01< zookeeper> (also Let none of them alive!
20090401 10:01:11< zookeeper> ffs why does this thing insert those linebreaks to my pastes
20090401 10:01:39< zookeeper> (also "Let none of them alive!" sounds a bit strange to me)
20090401 10:01:58< Soliton> markup only changed in message so far, i think.
20090401 10:02:46< zookeeper> right
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20090401 10:03:29< JW1> let none of them live
20090401 10:04:00< zookeeper> O.o i read that as "let none of them jive"
20090401 10:04:17< JW1> turkey
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20090401 10:40:30< esr> zookeeper: The old syntax is a no-op in [story] I left it there as a reminder to myself baack when I was thinking about implementing a better highlight system myself.
20090401 10:44:23< CIA-30> esr * r34370 /trunk/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios/22_Northern_Battle.cfg: Typo fix in LoW.
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20090401 10:44:50< esr> "Let none of them alive!" should be "Leave none of them alive!"; I've fixed it. Good catch.
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20090401 11:07:38< Ivanovic> moin
20090401 11:09:12< YogiHH> hey Ivanovic 
20090401 11:16:31< Ivanovic> corn: when submitting patches, best is to submit the patch to patches.wesnoth.org and mentioning in the patch text that the patch fixes bug #1234567 and in the bugreport just post a comment that you just posted a patch and list the number there
20090401 11:16:43< Ivanovic> this way the patch does not get lost in the list of bugreports
20090401 11:18:08< corn> Ivanovic: ok, will do
20090401 11:19:21< Ivanovic> it is just a plain "man, the bug list is too long to notice every change" where at patches it is something more like "okay, we have to look here, cleaup things and get them commited"
20090401 11:22:31< corn> yeah
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20090401 11:22:56< corn> I just wasn't aware that there was a seperate area for submitting patches, now I know :)
20090401 11:24:16< Ivanovic> :)
20090401 11:25:03< Ivanovic> you know, us being "high tech geeks" we got everything you ever dreamed of, though we can't publish everything so far, some things are still under NDAs
20090401 11:25:05< Ivanovic> ;)
20090401 11:25:21< corn> lol
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20090401 11:29:36< euschn> YogiHH: I was just looking at config_adapter with respect to your questions. It seems to me that it is not used in any savegame code at all
20090401 11:29:39< esr> zookeeper: Can I read somewhere an explanation of how the new gold carryover systen differs fronm the old, and how to convert to it?
20090401 11:30:14< euschn> besides get_theme, the only class that uses config_adapter is play_controller, which does not influence saving and storing games either - at least so it seems to me
20090401 11:30:46< zookeeper> esr, you've asked me before
20090401 11:31:00< euschn> so basically, removing config_adapter would just be about changing play_controller and moving get_theme somewhere else? or am I overlooking something?
20090401 11:31:23< Ivanovic> corn: you submitted your proposal?
20090401 11:31:23< esr> Have I?  Well, I guess the answer wasn't very memorable...
20090401 11:31:24< zookeeper> it's dead simple, just look at how NEW_GOLD_CARRYOVER is used. that's all you need basically.
20090401 11:31:33< corn> Ivanovic: yes, I did so a few hours ago to GSoC
20090401 11:31:34< Ivanovic> corn: that is: is it your one without any newlines?
20090401 11:31:42< Ivanovic> makes it really hard to read
20090401 11:31:45< corn> corn: refer to the wiki page
20090401 11:31:47< corn> er.
20090401 11:31:51< corn> Ivanovic: refer to the wiki page
20090401 11:31:59< corn> I just copy pasted the wiki page, it butchered the format
20090401 11:32:02< corn> I'll fix it later today
20090401 11:32:22< Ivanovic> then replace the text with some "i have answered all the questions on my wiki page: LINK
20090401 11:32:31< Ivanovic> this is enough, no need to have the stuff duplicated
20090401 11:32:37< corn> ok
20090401 11:32:51< corn> it would be nice to talk to the end-users of the stats page
20090401 11:32:57< corn> so I can figure out better what I should implement
20090401 11:33:03< corn> and make a timetable
20090401 11:33:09< Ivanovic> so go into the forums and ask the content creators
20090401 11:33:14< Ivanovic> they are the "real" endusers
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20090401 11:33:23< corn> ah, ok
20090401 11:33:27< YogiHH> euschn: no, that's basically it. However, config_adapter is involved in creating C++ objects out of config information.
20090401 11:33:29< Ivanovic> since the stats will be used as a helping tool for balancing
20090401 11:33:41< zookeeper> esr, and of course you want to check that the minimum gold value in the next scenario are suitable
20090401 11:33:45< Ivanovic> campaign balancing that is
20090401 11:33:50< zookeeper> but there's not really anything more than that to it..
20090401 11:33:56< viggy_prabhu> zookeeper: hi
20090401 11:34:00< zookeeper> hello
20090401 11:34:10< YogiHH> euschn: So you can think about where to move the stuff that is now in config_adapter
20090401 11:34:11< corn> would it also be worthwhile to add crash reports to the stuff uploaded
20090401 11:34:23< corn> that way devs can use part of the info as well
20090401 11:34:34< viggy_prabhu> zookeeper: what exactly should i do for this "engine support for wrapping the text "
20090401 11:34:59< Ivanovic> corn: uhm, the upload handler does not work in some exception handler
20090401 11:35:18< corn> Ivanovic: well how it works now is that the uploader just looks in a directory for files and uploads them
20090401 11:35:18< Ivanovic> corn: so it will be difficult to upload a "crashlog" with the *stats* page
20090401 11:35:34< zookeeper> viggy_prabhu, i have no idea what you're asking.
20090401 11:35:37< corn> Ivanovic: so you can extend it to upload a somewhat different kind of file as well
20090401 11:35:40< Ivanovic> especially considering that a "crashlog" is not always clear
20090401 11:35:49< YogiHH> euschn: can you open a private communication (don't know how to do this from this webclient)?
20090401 11:35:51< viggy_prabhu> zookeeper: m referring to the bug report i had submitted yesterday, https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?13301
20090401 11:36:00< zookeeper> naturally you are.
20090401 11:36:00< Ivanovic> that is: a crashlog should in general be more than the output of stderr
20090401 11:36:13< Ivanovic> it should also include a compelte coredump, though most users don't have it
20090401 11:36:29< corn> you wouldn't be able to get that unless you compile wesnoth in debug mode, right
20090401 11:37:20< corn> I was thinking that the "crashlog" would be the unrecoverable exception responsible for the crash
20090401 11:37:39< corn> so for example it would tell you crash in filesystem code when attempting to save file
20090401 11:37:42< Ivanovic> non trival to get in the first place
20090401 11:37:53< Ivanovic> and to have it uploaded, the game would have to be restarted anyway
20090401 11:37:57< corn> yes
20090401 11:38:04< corn> you would have to restart the game, most likely
20090401 11:38:30< esr> zookeeper: You're telling me tactics when what I really want is strategy.  What is the new system supposeed to accomplish that the old one doesn't?  I need to decide wheether to convert DM to it.
20090401 11:38:31< corn> so, not worth it?
20090401 11:38:44< Ivanovic> the best way to go is just have users report their problems in the forums/bug tracker and help us get through the steps to reproduce the problems
20090401 11:38:57< corn> ok
20090401 11:39:04< Ivanovic> the stats project should really be about getting meaningful stats in an efficent way
20090401 11:39:19< viggy_prabhu> zookeeper: i would like to fix that bug, i have the patch ready for that instance, but m sure there are many more such PRINT statements
20090401 11:39:20< zookeeper> esr, you don't know? it's supposed to make the possible range of gold you might start the next scenario with smaller
20090401 11:39:39< corn> Ivanovic: ok, I'll stick with that
20090401 11:39:41< zookeeper> viggy_prabhu, no, i was talking about making the engine automatically wrap lines which are too long to display on one line.
20090401 11:39:56< esr> zookeeper: Is this effect actually *documented* anywhere, comparatively with the old system?
20090401 11:40:13< corn> I will fix the GSoC page later today and put in a better timeline as well. don't have the time now, gotta go to school soon
20090401 11:40:22< Ivanovic> sure
20090401 11:40:23< zookeeper> esr, i don't think so. i'm not aware of the old system being documented anywhere, though.
20090401 11:40:54< zookeeper> viggy_prabhu, but of course you can still simply fix all occurrences of long strings like that, too.
20090401 11:41:13< esr> zookeeper: Please fix that onm the wiki.  Take pity on the poor campaign designers.
20090401 11:41:15< zookeeper> the effect would be better than with automatic wrapping anyway, at least in that one case.
20090401 11:41:26< zookeeper> esr, well, where in the wiki?
20090401 11:41:42 * esr thinks...
20090401 11:43:07< esr> zookeeper: A new page linked to BuildingCampaigns would p[robably be best.
20090401 11:43:46< zookeeper> a page describing how most campaigns have carryover work in them?
20090401 11:44:56< esr> That would be good. UMC authors are going to need to decide whether to vconvert to new carryover, so they need to have some feel for how it compares to the old system.
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20090401 11:49:33< euschn> off to uni, see you later
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20090401 11:50:40< zookeeper> esr, sounds more like a job for a sticky thread...there was one when the changes were made, i could re-sticky it if needed.
20090401 11:51:26< esr> Whatever. Anything would be better than nothing, which is what we have now... 
20090401 11:56:19< zookeeper> or why not put that into your campaign design howto?
20090401 11:56:38< zookeeper> that's the only thing we have which deals with campaign design, after all.
20090401 11:57:09< CIA-30> soliton * r34371 /branches/1.6/ (changelog src/server/game.cpp src/server/server.cpp): added some more logging and checks to figure out why players sometimes not get properly removed from a game (or readded as observers)
20090401 11:58:28< zookeeper> in fact you already discuss gold balance there, so..
20090401 12:00:19< CIA-30> soliton * r34372 /trunk/src/server/ (game.cpp server.cpp): added some more logging and checks to figure out why players sometimes not get properly removed from a game (or readded as observers)
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20090401 12:11:47< Dragonking> hello everyone
20090401 12:12:15< VladimirSlavik> Ivanovic, someone posted on forum about font / i18n issue http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=24771 - just making sure you know
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20090401 12:27:05< zookeeper> strange, lord ork's post remains marked as unread for me no matter how many times i read it: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=349075&f=6#p349075
20090401 12:27:41< zookeeper> i mean, unread when checking "view new posts", not "view unread posts"
20090401 12:28:04< Turuk> hmm
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20090401 12:39:45< esr> zookeeper: Yes, but you'd have to *tell me how it works* first...
20090401 12:40:13< esr> One or two sentences on IRC aren't good enough.
20090401 12:40:40< esr> And right now I'm going to sleep.
20090401 12:40:57< zookeeper> old way you know. new way: you get x% (40% in mainline campaigns, with a few very rare exceptions) of finishing gold added to the starting gold of the next scenario.
20090401 12:41:09< zookeeper> i fail to understand how you could have been unaware of that
20090401 12:41:10< esr> Fer cripessakes, write something down, would you?
20090401 12:41:43 * esr is short-tempered from lack of sleep.
20090401 12:41:51 * zookeeper slaps esr with a cuttlefish
20090401 12:41:58 * esr is going to sleep.
20090401 12:48:20< CIA-30> soliton * r34373 /branches/1.6/src/server/ (game.cpp server.cpp): don't save replays when the game didn't start + eliminate some now redundant logging
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20090401 12:53:26< CIA-30> soliton * r34374 /trunk/src/server/ (game.cpp server.cpp): don't save replays when the game didn't start + eliminate some now redundant logging
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20090401 13:06:01< henning__> Hello folks.
20090401 13:06:01< henning__> Wanted to introduce myself as another GSoc hopeful. I would like to work on a position evaluation algorithm that could potentially improve overall AI performance in the next release by relying heavily on analysis of unit development in contrast to just material value. My proposal is online on the GSoc wiki.
20090401 13:07:06< Soliton> what kind of unit development are you referring to?
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20090401 13:09:00< henning__> development in the sense of having units in active positions on the battlefield
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20090401 13:10:48< Ivanovic> henning__: please make sure to also submit the proposal to google
20090401 13:11:17< henning__> sure
20090401 13:11:23< Ivanovic> that is: write an abstract, find a title and in the "content" part just place a "you can find the real info in the wiki, here is the link: (link)"
20090401 13:11:47< Ivanovic> this is to make sure that you don't miss the deadline, we will provide you with feedback once we have had some look at the things
20090401 13:12:32< henning__> will go and do that now
20090401 13:15:01< Ivanovic> and from a first glance at the wiki page i can already tell you that the timeline/milestones will need some more details
20090401 13:15:20< Ivanovic> (though i have not carefully read everything so far, this is just from a first glance at things)
20090401 13:18:45< henning__> i'll be more verbose
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20090401 13:36:34< YogiHH> zookeeper: I have found an inconsistency within the game engine
20090401 13:37:28< YogiHH> zookeeper: When you end HttT Blackwater port and switch to The Isle of Alduin, on the very first turn the orc won't get income.
20090401 13:38:25< YogiHH> zookeeper: If however you save at that point (while it is still Konrad's turn) and then load from that save, the orc will get income
20090401 13:38:38< YogiHH> zookeeper: Can you tell me which behaviour is wanted?
20090401 13:41:32< YogiHH> zookeeper: By loading from the save, the orc got enough income to recruit another unit and that did corrupt the replay.
20090401 13:41:55< YogiHH> zookeeper: If we base this on mp behaviour, i guess the orc shouldn't get any income.
20090401 13:44:56< Soliton> what's special about isle of alduin? or is that generally the case?
20090401 13:49:03< zookeeper> there's nothing special about isle of alduin
20090401 13:49:39< zookeeper> checking if i can reproduce any of that..
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20090401 13:52:12< zookeeper> well, in the status table i see the orc as getting 34 income
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20090401 13:52:59< YogiHH> Soliton: that's generally the case (the game_loaded_ flag is not tested for the first turn)
20090401 13:53:00< zookeeper> but yes, there's nothing special in that scenario so he should of course get income perfectly normally
20090401 13:53:41< YogiHH> zookeeper: i was playing on easy, that was 30 gold in the beginning and 12 income the first time
20090401 13:54:30< YogiHH> zookeeper: ok, i will fix it accordingly, then
20090401 13:54:46< zookeeper> yeah, he gets less gold and less villages on easy.
20090401 13:56:22< zookeeper> but i don't get what you meant with your comment about mp behaviour
20090401 13:56:59< YogiHH> zookeeper: playing against humans on mp, you never get income on the first turn, no matter what side you are
20090401 13:57:50< zookeeper> err. what?
20090401 13:58:09< zookeeper> that can't be right.
20090401 13:58:29< YogiHH> zookeeper: in 1v1, you start with 100 gold, which is given in the scenario, no?
20090401 13:58:42< zookeeper> yes
20090401 13:59:01< YogiHH> zookeeper: you won't get your +2 income (no villages) for the first turn, then
20090401 13:59:03< zookeeper> of course you don't start with 102 gold or whatever
20090401 13:59:11< YogiHH> that's what i meant
20090401 13:59:18< zookeeper> i didn't realize you meant that. of course no one should ever get income on the first turn like that.
20090401 14:01:20< zookeeper> interesting...i fired up wesnoth again to test that, loaded my alduin beginning-of-scenario save from a couple of minutes ago, and konrad's graphics won't show up.
20090401 14:01:34< zookeeper> (that's with trunk though)
20090401 14:02:08< YogiHH> zookeeper: i experienced the same with a HttT first scenario close to the end savegame.
20090401 14:02:34< YogiHH> zookeeper: it wasn't completely gone, just looking very transparent or maybe parts of it missing. Very weird
20090401 14:02:42< zookeeper> error display: could not open image 'units/konrad-fighter.png'
20090401 14:02:42< zookeeper> error display: could not find image for report: 'units/konrad-fighter.png'
20090401 14:03:09< zookeeper> (i opened the unit description)
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20090401 14:17:42< Shadow_Master> good mornug
20090401 14:24:10-!- niadh [n=niadh@78-86-134-181.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090401 14:24:38< niadh> Hey, am one of the students looking to work on wesnoth as a project
20090401 14:25:00< YogiHH> hi niadh
20090401 14:25:00< Shadow_Master> hi, have you read the SoC info page linked in the channel's topic?
20090401 14:25:46< niadh> Yup :D I know what project I'd like to tackle and I'm signing up to gna right now
20090401 14:26:03< niadh> I'd have done this earlier but I had my thesis pending, just submitted it today
20090401 14:27:13< voris> Good morning.
20090401 14:27:22 * voris keeps a normal schedule for once
20090401 14:27:47< niadh> heh
20090401 14:27:52< Shadow_Master> niadh: do you have a forum account already?
20090401 14:28:23< niadh> Am doing that now, your one of the people I'm supposed to ask about marking it as a GSOC account, right?
20090401 14:28:42< Shadow_Master> yup
20090401 14:28:46< niadh> Uhm, I can't read the captha thing
20090401 14:28:52< niadh> is there a refresh button or something?
20090401 14:29:33< Shadow_Master> well, your browser's, of course
20090401 14:30:17< Shadow_Master> you can altarnatiely just enter an invalid code and it'll refresh after cilcking submit
20090401 14:30:36< voris> Ours doesn't have the audio thingy?
20090401 14:30:52< Shadow_Master> argh, sorry. I went to sleep at 3 AM, woke up at 5:30 AM and I'm still sleepy
20090401 14:30:56< niadh> I can't read any of these :S I'm not visually impaired I just can't make out the letters well
20090401 14:31:03< voris> I usually just guess and get it right.
20090401 14:31:28< niadh> I'm trying, well first thing *cleans glasses*
20090401 14:31:37< voris> iirc, ours aren't the evil ones that don't spell words so if it looks like a word(s) then go with that.
20090401 14:31:51< Shadow_Master> voris: oours are evil
20090401 14:31:56< voris> Oh.
20090401 14:31:58< voris> Nevermind then. :)
20090401 14:32:11< Shadow_Master> and we still get five spambots per week
20090401 14:32:16< voris> wow
20090401 14:32:17< niadh> I got one eventually, seems cleaning glasses helped
20090401 14:32:42< niadh> Uhm well the one that took like 5 attempts today was just me, so if it's up by 5 sorry
20090401 14:32:51< loonycyborg> Shadow_Master: Because spambots try more and occasionally get readable ones :P
20090401 14:33:06< Shadow_Master> possibly. We should have a secondary captcha of sorts
20090401 14:33:11< voris> Go abuses of mechanical turk tech, I guess.
20090401 14:33:36< Shadow_Master> e.g. "who starred in that disastrous movie whose protagonist was an alien duck?"
20090401 14:33:50< voris> haha
20090401 14:33:53< niadh> pass....
20090401 14:34:04< voris> That would definitely ensure mechanical turk hacks.
20090401 14:34:13< voris> But that's next if it isn't already here.
20090401 14:34:16< niadh> Maybe like google mail has the drunk filter?
20090401 14:34:22< zookeeper> what i wonder is why the hell do captchas have o's or O's and 0's in them. especially if it's case-sensitive.
20090401 14:34:31< voris> No shit.
20090401 14:34:37< niadh> Except I get better at maths when drunk, but a spam bot couldn't read it
20090401 14:34:39< loonycyborg> Shadow_Master: Yep. If every forum had a different question like that, spambots wouldn't be viable.
20090401 14:34:41< Shadow_Master> zookeeper: "All letters are case insensitive, there is no zero."
20090401 14:34:44< voris> At least avoid o0il1
20090401 14:34:47< Shadow_Master> zookeeper: that's our captcha setting
20090401 14:35:04< zookeeper> Shadow_Master, well, that's good. not the case everywhere AFAICT.
20090401 14:35:12< niadh> Shadow_Master: I believe that's my account set up under the name 'niadh' 
20090401 14:35:20< Turuk> I would say we could put in something like what is the game called as a question, but then half the users would fail out as new players would answer "Battle for Westnoth"
20090401 14:35:33< voris> zookeeper, most of the others I've seen that do use them at least spell words though.
20090401 14:36:04< voris> You'd think that would keep out the nigerians, but no. ;)
20090401 14:36:22< Shadow_Master> niadh: done,but someone beat me to it
20090401 14:36:28< niadh> heh#
20090401 14:36:28< voris> Magically they learn to spell during captha time.
20090401 14:36:35< Shadow_Master> Curse you, Turuk !
20090401 14:36:39< zookeeper> i also hate the O/0 ambiguity in other contexts, like product keys.
20090401 14:36:39< Turuk> ;)
20090401 14:36:57< voris> Agreed.
20090401 14:36:57< zookeeper> how the heck is it possible for anyone making those not to realize it's incredibly annoying
20090401 14:37:02< niadh> Ok, so I have done these two, I'm to start a wiki page? Even if it's on one of your ideas?
20090401 14:37:09< Turuk> To be fair, I added him when he first came in talking about looking to join and his proposal :P
20090401 14:37:18< niadh> zookeeper: Cos people DO fall for them :|
20090401 14:37:22< YogiHH> zookeeper: they don't have to type them in :-)
20090401 14:37:44< zookeeper> niadh, talking about O/0, not nigerian scams :p
20090401 14:38:30< YogiHH> niadh: yes, our ideas just provide a rough outline, you will have to add a lot of details
20090401 14:38:39< niadh> zookeeper: Sorry, but I do fall for the O/0 thing too, one I found particularly annoying was W/U believe me the font used in the product key was awful
20090401 14:38:48-!- grantwu [n=zenneth@westquad-149018.reshall.umich.edu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090401 14:39:08< voris> When I had to create a base > 10 numbering scheme to compress number space I left out the 0oiIl1 group to avoid just that. So it wound up being base 56.
20090401 14:39:09< niadh> Where do I start the wiki page then? 
20090401 14:40:20< Shadow_Master> niadh: http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/Put_An_Inexistent_Page_Name_Here
20090401 14:40:28< grantwu> Hey Yogi, did you get my e-mail?
20090401 14:40:46< Shadow_Master> you you should then link it at http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/SummerOfCodeIdeas#GSoC_Student_pages
20090401 14:40:55< YogiHH> grantwu: yes, i did. Very weird.
20090401 14:41:05< YogiHH> grantwu: Which branch are you using?
20090401 14:41:11< Shadow_Master> niadh: btw, what is your proposal, more or less? :)
20090401 14:42:18< niadh> Shadow_Master: I want to tackle the lobby system, I've wished the lobby could work in a different way for a while and as soon as I saw this idea I thought what better project to tackle than something I wanted to have changed anyway?
20090401 14:42:24< grantwu> YogiHH: Just running the latest build
20090401 14:42:46< Shadow_Master> niadh: aha, so you're familiar with wesnoth :)
20090401 14:42:49< YogiHH> grantwu: and you do normal manual saves while playing?
20090401 14:43:01< niadh> Shadow_Master: Me and my friends who occasionally play (never regularly enough for anyone to notice us) find it hard to find each others games on the main server
20090401 14:43:01< grantwu> YogiHH: Yeah, the one's I sent you are manual saves
20090401 14:43:34< niadh> Shadow_Master: This lead me to set up my own wesnoth server, but that doesn't really solve the problem
20090401 14:44:08< grantwu> YogiHH: I just played through the first couple of missions of the first campaign to see.  I'm pretty sure none of my save files had the [player] tag in the root section
20090401 14:44:20< Shadow_Master> niadh: you haven't tried using the friend/ignore list, though?
20090401 14:45:06< niadh> Shadow_Master: No, cos neither one of us had persistent user names or were registered on the forums or anything
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20090401 14:46:31< grantwu> YogiHH: Maybe you could send me the cpp files for saving that you currently have on your system and I'll diff them to see if there's anything funny going on
20090401 14:46:47< voris> Wait, how does running your own server not solve it? What problem are you having again?
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20090401 14:47:25< niadh> Well it solves the problem for us, but not for the greater user base
20090401 14:47:39< voris> Whenever my friends run a server for themselves it's usually just one or two games in the lobby then. :)
20090401 14:47:45< voris> ahhh
20090401 14:47:45< voris> ok
20090401 14:47:58< YogiHH> grantwu: Hmm, ok, i can do that. I am out of ideas, though, to be honest :/
20090401 14:48:53< niadh> Yeah but just cos I know how to set up a server not everyone does or wants to and shouldn't have to. But if the lobby could be made better as per the idea and anything else I can think of to add to it then surely it's better doing that?
20090401 14:48:58< niadh> Or am I wrong?
20090401 14:49:27< grantwu> YogiHH: Hm?  What do you mean?
20090401 14:49:32< Shadow_Master> yeah, nobody knows how to set up a server in practice unless they get help from Soly
20090401 14:49:57< niadh> Shadow_Master: I didn't have any help :S
20090401 14:50:06< Shadow_Master> niadh: I was talking about the regular Joe
20090401 14:50:11< YogiHH> grantwu: i mean i have no idea why you don't have root player-sections
20090401 14:50:11< Shadow_Master> average Joe, I mean
20090401 14:50:14< niadh> Oh, true
20090401 14:51:09< grantwu> YogiHH: Oh all right, well I'll see what I can find
20090401 14:51:14< Shadow_Master> the MP server/lobby could use  a lot of help
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20090401 14:52:01< niadh> As I user I have found it hard to find some features so I'd like to make some of the features more accessable and as per the idea, make it scale better
20090401 14:52:21< niadh> My housemate (who is not a coder at all) also suggested an invite system
20090401 14:52:41< grantwu> Oooohh, I agree with that
20090401 14:52:51< niadh> for example when you create a game you create the slots and can reserve a slot for a user and name them
20090401 14:53:00< niadh> they are prompted to respond to the invite
20090401 14:53:06< niadh> If they accept they join the game
20090401 14:53:12< niadh> if no the slot remains free
20090401 14:53:48< niadh> It's a part of the system I'd at least like to investigate 
20090401 14:54:01< niadh> What you guys think?
20090401 14:54:21< Shadow_Master> the most annoying thing for me, the few times I have played MP, is that I cannot talk  rpeople from the lobby while I am inside a game.
20090401 14:54:46< voris> That addresses a use case I have previously solved with the blunt hammer of whispering a password to people.
20090401 14:54:50< Shadow_Master> *talk with people from the lobby. < Otherwise I may not have ideas since I don't play MP except very rarely >
20090401 14:54:56< voris> (the invite thing)
20090401 14:54:58-!- _deleter [n=_deleter@adamsrj-1.dhcp.rose-hulman.edu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090401 14:55:01< niadh> Well does it use IRC for communication or something like XMPP, it looks like IRC but I don't know
20090401 14:55:04< voris> So I'd like it.
20090401 14:55:32< Shadow_Master> niadh: at the moment the lobby uses its own protocol (something WMLish) for chat
20090401 14:55:33< niadh> voris: That's what we had issues with, we texted passwords but it's not an ideal solution, so we were looking at making it better
20090401 14:55:47< Shadow_Master> WMLish as in : it uses the same memory structures used for storing WML (the config class)
20090401 14:55:51< voris> Sure, then you have to fill with only people you know.
20090401 14:56:01< niadh> Shadow_Master: Well if it used XMPP or IRC could you not directly talk to people you know out of game?
20090401 14:56:04< voris> Or keep kicking people from the slot your saving which just makes them upset. :)
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20090401 14:56:48< niadh> vorbis: Yeah it does appear rude, but if it's invite it seems more civilised, cos a use case may appear where say me and my friends might want to play as a team against people online
20090401 14:57:05< niadh> voris: Allows us to reserve our slots while allowing other players to join
20090401 14:57:13< Shadow_Master> niadh: of course I could, but IMO using our own internal protocol is a better approach for the MP server, than relying on external protocols and the invloved Increased Complexity(tm) due to external dependencies and extra network ports
20090401 14:57:27< voris> Yup. Then it's more like if you set that slot to local player and then assign to your observing friend after (but that method means your friend can't pick their own stuff).
20090401 14:57:36< Shadow_Master> the interface that makes use of the protocol is what really needs to be reworked
20090401 14:57:39< Shadow_Master> d
20090401 14:58:03< niadh> Shadow_Master: Ah okies
20090401 14:58:53-!- molgrum [n=molgrum@83.249.53.163] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090401 14:59:20< niadh> So since thinking about this invite system, having just completed a 21 week project I know not to overestimate my abilities, would it be logical to assume the invite system would be too much to add to the lobby system and should I create the invite system as a new proposal and fill in the lobby system one too?
20090401 14:59:52< voris> Having your own obscure chat code means you don't have to worry about every irc hack, bot script, etc. out there getting used on your mp lobby. :)
20090401 15:01:25< niadh> I can't seem to create wiki pages :(
20090401 15:01:29 * Shadow_Master rushes to register "Increased Complexity" as a trademark
20090401 15:01:42-!- _deleter [n=_deleter@adamsrj-1.dhcp.rose-hulman.edu] has quit [" I love my HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-"]
20090401 15:01:44< Shadow_Master> niadh: have you registered a wiki account, right?
20090401 15:01:47< niadh> Shadow_Master: The wheel has not yet been patented ;)
20090401 15:02:04< niadh> Shadow_Master: Oh, I assumed the wiki and forums accounts were linked.
20090401 15:02:18< Shadow_Master> no, they aren't. Indeed, their database don't know of each other.
20090401 15:02:23< Shadow_Master> *bases
20090401 15:03:36< niadh> Okies in
20090401 15:03:39-!- happygrue [n=George@wesnoth/developer/wintermute] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090401 15:04:16< Shadow_Master> niadh: try tro name your wiki page after you, e.g. MP_Lobby_Niadh
20090401 15:04:25< Shadow_Master> *your account
20090401 15:04:26< niadh> I did
20090401 15:04:37< Shadow_Master> aha,
20090401 15:04:59< niadh> Multiplayer_Invite_System-niadh & GSOC_Lobby_Proposal-niadh
20090401 15:05:05< niadh> not that anything exists yet
20090401 15:05:25< Ivanovic> once you have something written, do *not* forget to also submit it into the google tracker
20090401 15:05:53< niadh> Well I shall put it in this wiki first
20090401 15:06:04< Ivanovic> everything needed there is basically a short abstract about the project (those will be available to the public directly from the google page!) and a link to the stuff you did in the wiki
20090401 15:06:33< Ivanovic> as in: "detailed information about this project is listed on this page: LINK"
20090401 15:06:53< Ivanovic> just make sure to not forget submission to google, the deadline is soon
20090401 15:06:58< Ivanovic> (friday!)
20090401 15:07:52< niadh> I know, I handed my thesis in early (it was done, just didn't wanna loose any more time on gsoc) so I could make a start
20090401 15:08:43< niadh> on each wiki page do I answer all the questions in the application template? I assume that I use the template to populate the wiki page?
20090401 15:09:04< Ivanovic> you can use the template to populate the wiki, sure
20090401 15:09:13< niadh> Cool thanks
20090401 15:09:28< Ivanovic> in general it is enough to say on the 2nd page: "read about my personal stuff on this other wiki page: [link]"
20090401 15:09:42< Ivanovic> this way you only got to list the project stuff on the 2nd page
20090401 15:10:26< niadh> Cool, I do find it hard to 'sell' myself
20090401 15:10:58-!- DarthEther [n=Ether@95.172.132.12] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090401 15:11:04< DarthEther> hi all
20090401 15:12:04< DarthEther> is there a place for programmer in your developer team? :)
20090401 15:12:21< Shadow_Master> DarthEther: of course there is! :)
20090401 15:12:34< Shadow_Master> I'll let Ivanovic handle this
20090401 15:13:07< DarthEther> I'm interested in AI research :)
20090401 15:13:30< DarthEther> but yet have no ideas how to made this
20090401 15:13:38< DarthEther> Ivanovic handle me :)
20090401 15:14:10< Shadow_Master> are you a GSoC student? we've already got a few proposals from students at http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/SummerOfCodeIdeas#AI 
20090401 15:14:54< DarthEther> yes, I am
20090401 15:15:46< voris> DarthEther: You may be interested in working on CADIE then. ;)
20090401 15:15:55< DarthEther> what is CADIE?
20090401 15:16:31< voris> Cognitive Auto-Heuristic Distributed-Intelligence Entity.
20090401 15:16:50< voris> Google's April Fool's joke.
20090401 15:17:09< DarthEther> :)
20090401 15:17:18< voris> http://www.google.com/intl/en/landing/cadie/index.html
20090401 15:17:54< DarthEther> rofl
20090401 15:18:13< voris> "Wow! It's good to be sentient..."
20090401 15:18:28 * Ivanovic is unable to handle anything
20090401 15:18:31< DarthEther> but I meant AI in wesnoth
20090401 15:18:34< Ivanovic> Shadow_Master should know this best...
20090401 15:18:55-!- IneQuation [i=1286@2001:470:1f09:409:0:0:0:1286] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090401 15:18:55< voris> Well once they finish skynet we can just use that as the framework for wesnoth AI.
20090401 15:19:09< Ivanovic> DarthEther: first thing i can suggest is: read the info available in the wiki, there is a lot about "why is the ai difficult" and stuff like this
20090401 15:19:21< YogiHH> DarthEther: We are always interested in new devs
20090401 15:19:39< Ivanovic> beside this: have you played the game? (yes, not everyone has played the game before asking to participate in SoC)
20090401 15:19:53< niadh> I don't like AI, I've seen terminator.....
20090401 15:19:57< Ivanovic> for ai development you will have to know the rules and special cases quite well
20090401 15:19:57< YogiHH> DarthEther: To work on the AI needs a lot of pre-requirements, though
20090401 15:20:02< DarthEther> Ivanovic I have already read. description is not terrify:)
20090401 15:20:35< Shadow_Master> niadh: well, wesnoth's AI has literally taken over "the world" twice
20090401 15:20:38< Ivanovic> uhm, then we have to redo the stuff written so far...
20090401 15:20:41< DarthEther> that's not good :(
20090401 15:20:43< Ivanovic> ;)
20090401 15:20:46-!- euschn [n=chatzill@128.130.175.39] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090401 15:20:53 * YogiHH whispers to Ivanovic: We really have to make it more terrifying ;-)
20090401 15:20:56< Ivanovic> in general writing an ai for wesnoth is non trival
20090401 15:21:09< DarthEther> and no, I didn't played the game :) 
20090401 15:21:19< Ivanovic> ugh, this makes things *difficult*
20090401 15:21:38< DarthEther> really?
20090401 15:21:48< grantwu> DarthEther: Its fun, I didn't play before I applied, now I'm wasting time playing when I should be working :( :(
20090401 15:21:59< Ivanovic> since one of the ideas we had for the ai part (since writing a complete AI is out of scope for summer of code) was to write a library of primitives for the ai that handle some small "special situations"
20090401 15:22:04< grantwu> Like right now, oops.  Sorry Yogi, I'll get you that save file
20090401 15:22:09< YogiHH> DarthEther: If you don't know about the AI, how can you develop ideas to enhance it?
20090401 15:22:44< Ivanovic> basically stuff you could "stick together" to make the ai work better with those specials
20090401 15:22:47< YogiHH> grantwu: I can't count the times playing wesnoth when i was supposed to do other stuff ;-)
20090401 15:22:49-!- andrey22 [n=Andrey@82.196.80.141] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)]
20090401 15:23:01< voris> AI Shims
20090401 15:23:19< grantwu> YogiHH: !!! this last save file finally has a [player] section in the root
20090401 15:23:31< YogiHH> cool :-)
20090401 15:23:38< Ivanovic> but to be able to identify "possible areas" for this you should have some knowledge about how the ai acts at the moment and where it is "suboptimal" compared to a human being
20090401 15:23:46< DarthEther> YogiHH well, I didn't faced wtih making AI earlier, but I don't think it is something really impossible
20090401 15:23:53< YogiHH> grantwu: now make it disappear ;-)
20090401 15:23:54-!- andrey23 [n=Andrey@82.196.80.141] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090401 15:23:55< Ivanovic> (okay, screw suboptimal, make it: damn bad)
20090401 15:24:18< Ivanovic> DarthEther: and no need to use any "syntax highlighting" on nicknames, our irc clients will do this for us
20090401 15:24:19< Ivanovic> ;)
20090401 15:24:42< DarthEther> just mathematics, I think :)
20090401 15:24:55< YogiHH> DarthEther: Not meaning to discourage you (really), but it is next to impossible to succeed working on the AI without knowing it within the time frame of GSoC
20090401 15:25:03< grantwu> YogiHH: Hahaha okay
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20090401 15:26:00< DarthEther> so...you are mostly NOT GSoC'ers? :)
20090401 15:26:06< grantwu> YogiHH: Its in [snapshot] too, does that not matter?
20090401 15:26:17< grantwu> DarthEther: I'm a GSoC applicant
20090401 15:26:18< YogiHH> grantwu: no, that's ok for the moment
20090401 15:26:49< grantwu> YogiHH: all right, off I go then
20090401 15:26:49< Shadow_Master> DarthEther: depends on whom you refer to
20090401 15:27:09< BobBobson> I'm mostly not a GSoCer, but I can't speak for anyone else
20090401 15:27:14< grantwu> YogiHH: After this turn though...lol
20090401 15:27:16< Ivanovic> DarthEther: this is the normal wesnoth development channel
20090401 15:27:24< Shadow_Master> YogiHH and me are mainline developers, Ivanovic is something like that but with Greater Powers(tm)
20090401 15:27:37< Ivanovic> this is: many of our "main developers" are lurking in here and giving advice
20090401 15:27:41< Shadow_Master> yogi is also a GSoC mentor
20090401 15:27:48< DarthEther> that explains a lot :)
20090401 15:27:48< Ivanovic> though at the moment *many* summer of code applicants are around, too
20090401 15:29:25< BobBobson> I can't use the forum's search feature at the moment (its been telling me to try again in a few minutes for a few days) so I don't know if this idea has already been dismissed but...
20090401 15:29:36< Ivanovic> BobBobson: search using google
20090401 15:29:49 * Shadow_Master ?
20090401 15:29:51< DarthEther> could anyone of "main developers" give me an advice what idea should I choose if AI is to difficult?
20090401 15:29:55< Ivanovic> just add this in the query to only search the forums: site:wesnoth.org/forum
20090401 15:30:06< BobBobson> Ah OK - is it all indexed? Cool
20090401 15:30:08< Shadow_Master> forum search works for me
20090401 15:30:10< Ivanovic> DarthEther: it all depends on your interest
20090401 15:30:32< Ivanovic> BobBobson: lets say it this way: google is *very* active on all of our website so chances are high that everthing is indexed
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20090401 15:31:42< grantwu> Google, the all-knowing.
20090401 15:31:51< Ivanovic> no, google the master spy
20090401 15:31:52< Ivanovic> ;)
20090401 15:32:01< grantwu> hahaha
20090401 15:32:35< DarthEther> my interests is working code. it's not very critical what is it doing. I could be interested by idea that doesn't seemed so
20090401 15:32:45< DarthEther> *It
20090401 15:32:51< DarthEther> oh no, I :)
20090401 15:33:13< Ivanovic> have a look at the list of ideas and check what else you like
20090401 15:33:30< Ivanovic> most stuff is interesting though it also depends on your current knowledge if it is a task for you
20090401 15:34:38< BobBobson> Ivanovic: Thanks, found out that my idea was not only already suggested but also already implemented just that I'd failed to spot it in the client. D'oh
20090401 15:34:53< Ivanovic> :)
20090401 15:34:55< DarthEther> maybe "Implement campaign statistics reports on stats.wesnoth.org"
20090401 15:34:58< Ivanovic> you're welcome
20090401 15:35:04< DarthEther> databases is always interesting
20090401 15:35:10< DarthEther> *are
20090401 15:35:16< Ivanovic> DarthEther: this requires database knowledge and some "website" knowledge
20090401 15:35:34< Ivanovic> as in "tools used to create efficently websites out of lots of data"
20090401 15:36:27< DarthEther> I have some database knowledge, but websites...I had never faced with cite's creation
20090401 15:36:42< Ivanovic> this project is basically about handling lots of data, working on this somehow (magic you will have to find) and turn it into some meaningfull charts/graphs/tables/whatever that can be viewed via the web
20090401 15:37:14< Ivanovic> since stats.wesnoth.org *is* a site that campaign creators (or even players) can have a look at to get an idea how people do in this scenario to eg improve balancing
20090401 15:37:27< Ivanovic> at the moment there is just too much data to have this page still usable
20090401 15:39:18< Ivanovic> i am afk for a while (you know, relaxing, lying on my bed, reading a book in its dead tree edition without any specific technology attached to it...)
20090401 15:40:23< grantwu> Ivanovic: Blasphemous
20090401 15:41:15< DarthEther> I took a look at that webpage
20090401 15:42:01< DarthEther> it doesn't seems hard, but I'm likely wrong :)
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20090401 15:49:23< niadh> Is it ok to have all the personal stuff elsewhere and just have a link there followed by the project details?
20090401 15:50:59< YogiHH> niadh: I think so, yes. Ivanovic?
20090401 15:51:49< niadh> Just seems that all the questions about myself that I answer take up a lot of room, might be better keeping personal statements and information away from project proposals
20090401 15:52:26< YogiHH> niadh: We don't care about the layout, just about the information :-)
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20090401 15:53:39< YogiHH> niadh: forum/irc/mail information should be directly on the proposal, though, for the sake of identification
20090401 15:53:40< niadh> There just seemed to be a lot of information written before I even get onto discussing the project idea am I perhaps being too verbose? 
20090401 15:54:09< YogiHH> niadh: Unlikely, it is quite a bit of work to write a good proposal
20090401 15:55:42< niadh> Well I have the personal statement bit stored on my own server now, I presume noone would look at it as it stands now in case certain things want fleshing out or further elaborated?
20090401 15:56:45< YogiHH> niadh: I understand the words, but i don't know what is the question
20090401 15:57:15< YogiHH> niadh: Of course we want to look at it :-)
20090401 15:58:01< YogiHH> niadh: Just do as you feel appropriate, we will tell you if we expect more information
20090401 15:58:18< Reisiger> Q: I'm looking for a precompiled libfontconfig. Is there one at all?
20090401 15:58:18< Reisiger> My Win7 install doesn't recognize the './configure ...' command for some reason :-(
20090401 15:58:25< niadh> Since my suitability as a potential student will be judged on my application I presume no-one is really allowed to look at what I have so far prior to it being looked at on the 3rd or whenever?
20090401 15:59:30< YogiHH> niadh: We will likely check before that date and give you hints for improvement
20090401 15:59:47< YogiHH> niadh: everyone can look at it any time
20090401 16:00:11< niadh> Oh thank goodness, my grammar is not the best so am often hesitant about personal statements etc
20090401 16:01:07< YogiHH> niadh: However, our personal impression here on irc and your coding skills (shown with patches) is what counts most. The wiki page will make for the "salt in the supper", but won't ultimately decide about things.
20090401 16:01:35< niadh> Sadly I have not submitted any patches :(
20090401 16:01:46< YogiHH> there is still time to do that :-)
20090401 16:02:33< niadh> Well what might be a good patch to submit then?
20090401 16:03:00< YogiHH> niadh: have a look at the EasyCoding page on the wiki or at the bugtracker
20090401 16:03:24< YogiHH> niadh: If you choose the bugtracker however, you should double-check here to make sure the task is not too difficult
20090401 16:03:39< YogiHH> i am off for now
20090401 16:03:41< YogiHH> see you
20090401 16:03:47< euschn> see you
20090401 16:03:51< niadh> Am looking at the easycoding page now, okies, see ya later
20090401 16:03:52< grantwu> bye
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20090401 16:14:12< niadh> can someone suggest a easy patch to attempt to demonstrate my coding abilities for wesnoth?
20090401 16:14:31< loonycyborg> Reisiger: You'll need to use MSYS to run configure etc.
20090401 16:15:23< loonycyborg> Reisiger: http://www.gtk.org/download-windows.html
20090401 16:16:14< Reisiger> So that should be part of MinGW?
20090401 16:17:39< loonycyborg> MSYS is part of mingw which is downloaded separately.
20090401 16:18:15< loonycyborg> Though using precompiled fontconfig doesn't require MSYS naturally..
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20090401 16:18:58< Reisiger> So the fontconfig files on that site are precompiled?
20090401 16:19:29< loonycyborg> There are both source and binary packages.
20090401 16:19:51< Reisiger> looked at the fontconfig.org site... only source there o_O
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20090401 16:21:20< Reisiger> Thanks :) I'll get msys anyway... I'll sooner or later bump into a situation where there are no premade binaries.
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20090401 16:30:32< Velory> Hi everyone
20090401 16:31:39< euschn> hi
20090401 16:33:46< grantwu> Helloooo
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20090401 16:38:39< euschn> Ivanovic: Im currently improving the timeline in my proposal based on the tips you gave me - do you think it is more realistic now? http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/SummerOfCodeProposal_Euschn#Milestones_and_Timeline
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20090401 16:39:36< euschn> I admit its still pretty vague, I will add more information as soon as I finish YogiHHs proposal questions (i.e., later today or tommorow)
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20090401 16:53:30< Reisiger> Got an error while compyling...
20090401 16:53:30< Reisiger> Error     1     fatal error C1083: Cannot open include file: 'glib.h': No such file or directory     e:\projects_ext\pango\pango-dev_1.24.0-1_win32\include\pango-1.0\pango\pango-coverage.h     25 
20090401 16:53:30< Reisiger> But I now have all the listed prerequesites ready and added o_O
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20090401 16:55:20< loonycyborg> pango and glib headers are located in several locations.
20090401 16:56:16-!- busfahrer [n=busfahre@unixboard/user/busfahrer] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090401 16:56:25< loonycyborg> In my case: /usr/include/pango-1.0,/usr/include/glib-2.0,/usr/lib/glib-2.0/include
20090401 16:57:03 * loonycyborg wonders why gtk places some headers in /usr/*lib*!
20090401 16:58:36< Reisiger> hm... I'll get the all-in-one bundle from gtk+ then o_O seems the headers and libraries are in different packages otherwise
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20090401 17:02:27< grantwu> uuugh, the pango crap gave me some trouble when i first started working
20090401 17:06:31< Reisiger> M'kay... next try ;)
20090401 17:07:52< Reisiger> *facepalm* Seems I'll have to all every ...\include\xyz inside the gtk+-bundle 
20090401 17:08:34 * Ivanovic whistles the "there are virtual machines with linux images that can be run under windows, too"-song
20090401 17:08:36< Ivanovic> ;)
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20090401 17:11:46< grantwu> Hey, so I'm doing the savegame easycoding task and I did what it says, but I need a way for the program to give an error...gracefully.  The game doesn't have to quit, I just need a dialogue box to open and say "Player information not found" or something similar.  
20090401 17:12:10< loonycyborg> Ivanovic: Unfortunately, they're dog-slow unles your cpu supports particular extensions ;)
20090401 17:16:53< Ivanovic> loonycyborg: right, the best way is still to just install a real linux system
20090401 17:18:35< grantwu> Hmm, I'm running Ubuntu installed through windows on my desktop (I need Windows for some of my work, dont hate!) it installs like any other program.
20090401 17:19:41< grantwu> I haven't had any issues with performance either
20090401 17:20:44< Reisiger> 'installed through' ? You mean virtualised with something like VMware?
20090401 17:20:58< grantwu> No, I'm horrible at explaining
20090401 17:21:11< grantwu> does anybody know what I'm talking about?
20090401 17:21:55< grantwu> If you have the ubuntu cd in one form or another you can install it in windows
20090401 17:21:58< grantwu> no need to partition anything
20090401 17:22:10< grantwu> how it actually works i don't know, but once you reboot you can boot straight into ubuntu
20090401 17:22:35< grantwu> and then it finishes the installation and poof, you're running linux without what could be considered "hassle"
20090401 17:23:23< Reisiger> So you see a screen to select ubuntu / win?
20090401 17:23:27< grantwu> yep
20090401 17:23:29< loonycyborg> IIRC they have some thing called 'wubi'. Perhaps it is what you mean..
20090401 17:23:50< grantwu> i think that might be it...GOOOO GOOGLE, I CHOOSE YOU!
20090401 17:24:14< grantwu> er...no
20090401 17:24:19< grantwu> i dont' think so?
20090401 17:24:29< grantwu> ...oh wait, yes
20090401 17:24:33< grantwu> yes this.
20090401 17:24:42< Reisiger> http://wubi-installer.org/
20090401 17:24:55< grantwu> yeah, its not a separate thing anymore
20090401 17:25:04< grantwu> they merged everything together
20090401 17:25:40< grantwu> great for the slightly...or more than slightly lazy like myself
20090401 17:26:00< Reisiger> Neat :)
20090401 17:26:47< grantwu> There's a slight "disk performance might be crappier" disclaimer but i haven't really noticed anything
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20090401 17:29:07< voris> Hey, someone that uses wubi!
20090401 17:29:09< voris> Cool.
20090401 17:29:27< voris> So how does that work? Do you just start ubuntu like you might start MS Word?
20090401 17:29:33< voris> And it runs in a window?
20090401 17:29:47< grantwu> no
20090401 17:29:50< grantwu> you boot into ubuntu
20090401 17:30:03< grantwu> as though you had a separate partition
20090401 17:30:14< voris> Oh. So it's just simplifying doing a multi-boot partition?
20090401 17:30:30< grantwu> yeah, not so much simplifying as it is completely doing away with it
20090401 17:30:43< voris> But no separate partition...odd.
20090401 17:30:52 * voris gives up trying to think how that might work.
20090401 17:31:08< grantwu> hahaha, those guys at ubuntu are doing a good job making linux easy for everyone to use
20090401 17:31:11< Ivanovic> how it works is easy: evil black magic
20090401 17:31:15< grantwu> LOL
20090401 17:31:15< voris> heh
20090401 17:31:36< Ivanovic> sactifising a goat *and* a virgin at the same time is requured
20090401 17:31:44< Ivanovic> though it does not have to be a virgin goat...
20090401 17:31:44< voris> I guess they must be putting everything into one folder as far as windows is concerned.
20090401 17:31:50< Reisiger> *facepalm* gettext again... gah
20090401 17:32:02< Ivanovic> more likely it is a virtual file
20090401 17:32:16< Ivanovic> basically a file that is expended just like the swap "file" on windows is
20090401 17:32:22< voris> ah
20090401 17:32:25< voris> That's a good point.
20090401 17:32:54< Reisiger> Error     32     fatal error LNK1104: cannot open file 'libintl.lib'     wesnoth
20090401 17:33:07< grantwu> Mysterious...
20090401 17:33:10< voris> Well that's a pretty brilliant way of easing windows users in.
20090401 17:33:36< grantwu> okay I'm going to ask my question again, I need a graceful way of presenting an error.  Specifically if data in a cfg file can't be found, is there a standard way of doing this?
20090401 17:35:51-!- Turuk [n=Turuk@wesnoth/forumsith/turuk] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090401 17:35:54< Reisiger> Great... none of the precompiled gettext downloads has the libintl.lib inside o_O
20090401 17:45:24< Velory> Hi Ivanovic i want to join wesnoth with ai project you know but im thinking if there is no quota left i can also work for Statistics cause i know sql language and database design and i can connect database with java etc. My first decision and  always wanted work is developing and improving artifical intelligence, but today i take a look at other projects again and i thought i can work with statistics project too.And maybe i should make my second prop
20090401 17:46:03< Ivanovic> Velory: you are free to submit a 2nd proposal, too
20090401 17:47:23-!- andrey23 [n=Andrey@82.196.80.141] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
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20090401 17:50:14< Velory> Ivanovic: But what are you thinking about that cause my patches are about artifical intelligence and my first priority is artifical intelligence because of that im also working improvements which are about this project, So what u will say when u see my 2nd proposal. I dont want to stay here like "just trying to participate gsoc and i can do what u want".No im just trying to be more servicable maybe. Anyway i need a suggestion about that because i don
20090401 17:51:03< Ivanovic> your message was too long and a part dropped, this is the last that was visible: "Anyway i need a suggestion about that because i don"
20090401 17:51:18< Velory>  dont know :)
20090401 17:51:38< Velory> or im not sure about that
20090401 17:51:39< Velory> :)
20090401 17:51:41< Dragonking> Ivanovic: I'll submint my proposal to google tonight, but still will fine tune it around friday.
20090401 17:51:48< Ivanovic> Dragonking: sure
20090401 17:51:54< Dragonking> I'll give you all notice once it is ready ok?
20090401 17:52:00< Ivanovic> Velory: you know, this stuff is *always* a tough thing...
20090401 17:52:12< grantwu> Yogi!  you're back
20090401 17:52:16< Ivanovic> Dragonking: just add at the end of the proposal that you will post a comment once you are done
20090401 17:52:21< grantwu> i submitted a patch for you to look at ;)
20090401 17:52:26< Ivanovic> when you are done, do so and everything should be fine
20090401 17:52:27< Ivanovic> ;)
20090401 17:52:30< Dragonking> Ivanovic: ok!
20090401 17:52:53< Ivanovic> Velory: and i don't know the perfect way for you to continue
20090401 17:53:05< Ivanovic> we have seen that you are very enthusiastic and really want to get in
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20090401 17:53:31< grantwu> I hope people see that in me too.  :( :(  hahahaha
20090401 17:53:33< Crab_> hi
20090401 17:53:37< grantwu> hey
20090401 17:53:44< YogiHH> grantwu: will only be here for a short time, but will come back later in like 5 hours, maybe (depending on how good a fight the opposing team is going to give us ;-) )
20090401 17:53:48-!- Turuk [n=Turuk@wesnoth/forumsith/turuk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
20090401 17:53:50< Velory> Hi Crab_
20090401 17:53:57< Ivanovic> Velory: and i really don't know what to recommend you to do
20090401 17:53:59< grantwu> YogiHH: Fussball?
20090401 17:54:10< grantwu> YogiHH: Or Wesnoth?  lol
20090401 17:54:18< voris> 510 characters maximum for a message. It's not just a good idea, it's the law.
20090401 17:54:19< Velory> Ivanovic:  Ok :) then thanks anyway :)
20090401 17:54:43< voris> (much less than 510 characters always appreciated and preferred, of course)
20090401 17:55:03< YogiHH> grantwu: no, table-tennis :-)
20090401 17:55:05< Ivanovic> voris: or using a client that automatically splits into two once the max is reached
20090401 17:55:06< Ivanovic> ;)
20090401 17:55:13< grantwu> YogiHH: HAHAHAHA even better.  Good luck.
20090401 17:55:13< voris> Sure.
20090401 17:55:19< YogiHH> thanks
20090401 17:55:30-!- nagbot [n=root@smtp.terraninfo.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090401 17:55:33< nagbot> Hello!
20090401 17:55:33< nagbot> An announcement for ALL Google Summer of Code Students
20090401 17:55:36< nagbot> The deadline for the application is friday, april 3rd, at 19:00 UTC (12:00 PST)
20090401 17:55:39< nagbot> Everyone not enlisted in the google tracker at that time will have *no* chance to participate with Wesnoth as part of summer of code 2009, no matter how good you communicated with us or *whatever* 
20090401 17:55:43 * Ivanovic hugs Crab_
20090401 17:55:43< nagbot> Only people listed there can be selected!
20090401 17:55:45< nagbot> Submit patches for review, so we'll see how how you work.
20090401 17:55:48< nagbot> Talk about your ideas on the IRC
20090401 17:56:18 * Velory O.o
20090401 17:56:20< Crab_> Ivanovic, yes, now I know a bit about IRC bot programming. 
20090401 17:56:28< grantwu> hahahaha nagbot
20090401 17:57:15< Velory> nagbot
20090401 17:57:19< Crab_> Ivanovic, what will be suitable schedule ? once-every-six-hours is ok ? (there's an irssi cron module i can use) 
20090401 17:57:24< Velory> :D can we ask questions to nagbot :p
20090401 17:57:36< Ivanovic> Crab_: this really should be enough
20090401 17:57:40< Crab_> ok )
20090401 17:58:29< YogiHH> omg, Ivanovic has his own bot ;-P
20090401 17:58:40< voris> nagbot: any news?
20090401 17:58:43< voris> aw
20090401 17:58:59< Ivanovic> YogiHH: uhm, it is not *my* bot, it is a bot taking a task i did by hand before...
20090401 17:59:58-!- cjhopman [n=chris@wesnoth/developer/cjhopman] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20090401 18:00:46 * YogiHH sees dark times rising. Commits without changelog entries will be automatically reverted by nagbot. Chaos and freedom will vanish...
20090401 18:01:08< Ivanovic> muhahaha
20090401 18:01:10< grantwu> hahahaahha
20090401 18:01:24< Ivanovic> YogiHH: be carefull, you provide me with nice ideas...
20090401 18:01:37< Ivanovic> beside this: was there ever *freedom* here?
20090401 18:01:53< YogiHH> :-)
20090401 18:01:59< elias> whenever someone was sleeping :)
20090401 18:02:01< Velory> YogiHH:  hahaha
20090401 18:03:03< Crab_> YogiHH, bots do not change anything in that situation. for "a bot which reverts all commits without changelog entries" will be met with a new bot, which will insert a random humorous quote into changelog before each commit.
20090401 18:03:43< Ivanovic> hmm, then reading our changelogs would at least be more fun...
20090401 18:04:34< YogiHH> Crab_: Well, this is Ivanovic's bot. Better don't mess with it ;-)
20090401 18:04:48< Ivanovic> YogiHH: in fact it os Crab_s bot
20090401 18:05:01< Crab_> YogiHH: ))))))
20090401 18:05:45< YogiHH> ok, that explains a couple of things
20090401 18:06:05< YogiHH> we should seriously rethink his commit access, then ;-P
20090401 18:06:26< Ivanovic> hehehe
20090401 18:09:33< Crab_> YogiHH: today is a good date to *seriously rethink* things )
20090401 18:10:06< Ivanovic> today is a good day to do what we do every evening:
20090401 18:10:08< YogiHH> hehe, indeed
20090401 18:10:11< Ivanovic> plan taking over the world
20090401 18:10:48< grantwu> I think it actually went...
20090401 18:10:53< grantwu> Gee Brain, what do you want to do tonight?
20090401 18:10:55< Crab_> "taking over the world, one computer at a time"
20090401 18:11:04< grantwu> The same thing we do every night, Pinky - try to take over the world
20090401 18:11:12< grantwu> :)
20090401 18:11:30< Ivanovic> grantwu: sadly i only know the german version of this...
20090401 18:16:01< Ivanovic> not bad, just had a look at the latest download stats from sf.net
20090401 18:16:23< Ivanovic> in march we had our 2nd highes download number ever, 97,618 downloads
20090401 18:16:50< Ivanovic> only last year with the release of 1.4 we had more (102,506 downloads via sf.net)
20090401 18:17:53< Crab_> Ivanovic: can it count "not by month, but by N days since release" ?
20090401 18:18:03< Ivanovic> no
20090401 18:18:15< elias> was the 1.4 release on a lower day number than the 1.6 one?
20090401 18:18:20< Ivanovic> yeah
20090401 18:18:22< grantwu> Ivanovic: Please share the German version, I speak a little and always want to learn more :)
20090401 18:19:05< Ivanovic> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIaQKnzQzj4
20090401 18:19:51< elias> Ivanovic: you should have released 1.6 today... then this April could have been the all-time most-downloads month
20090401 18:20:07< grantwu> Ivanovic: Oh my god, thank you.  This is amazing.
20090401 18:20:09< Ivanovic> elias: yeah, it would
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20090401 18:20:51< CIA-30> jhinrichs * r34375 /trunk/src/ (menu_events.cpp menu_events.hpp play_controller.cpp): 
20090401 18:20:51< CIA-30> Savegame reorganization Step 1: Providing a simpler interface to saving and loading.
20090401 18:20:51< CIA-30> Split menu_handler::save_game into menu_handler::save_game + menu_handler::save_replay.
20090401 18:20:51< CIA-30> @nagbot: The changelog entry for this is already in, done with an earlier commit ;-)
20090401 18:23:01< YogiHH> alright, off for now, see you later
20090401 18:23:06< Crab_> )
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20090401 18:38:18< Reisiger> libogg.lib ... that'd be a static library?
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20090401 19:01:14-!- jmunro[a] is now known as jmunro
20090401 19:03:10< niadh> There's another munro around here?
20090401 19:03:11< niadh> :O
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20090401 19:04:48< Shadow_Master> what does nagbot do?
20090401 19:05:04< Shadow_Master> and it lacks a wesnothian cloak
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20090401 19:06:34< Crab_> Shadow_Master: it is for reminding about GSoC deadline
20090401 19:06:58< Crab_> see yesterdays irclogs  for the idea, and todays for the 
20090401 19:07:03< Crab_> 'how-it-looks'
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20090401 19:13:01< niadh> Shadow_Master: Am looking at bugs that might be simple to implement to demonstrate coding competence for gsoc, what particular ones would you suggest? I wanna try some of the gui ones but how would I get started, I presume checking out svn?
20090401 19:13:52< Shadow_Master> indeed, you should check out trunk to fix bugs in trunk, and branches/1.6 to fix bugs in 1.6
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20090401 19:14:58< Shadow_Master> you'll have to pick a bug (or EasyCoding feature request). Sorry I can't be more helpful atm, need to go to class
20090401 19:15:08< Shadow_Master> ;.(
20090401 19:15:16< boucman> hey all
20090401 19:15:17< niadh> well I'm looking at the "Generic yes/no ok/cancel dialog" one for GUI2 atm
20090401 19:15:23< Crab_> hi boucman
20090401 19:15:46< Shadow_Master> niadh: that would be nice, but try to speak with mordante about it first
20090401 19:15:54< niadh> k
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20090401 19:16:17< Shadow_Master> mordante is in charge of implementing GUI2 and may help you with any lacking features, documentation, etc.
20090401 19:16:38< Shadow_Master> he is also a very good compiler by himself
20090401 19:16:43< niadh> any idea when he'd be around?
20090401 19:16:52< boucman> Crab_: according to commit log, you've changed the way FAI and C++ AI interact (i.e fallback behaviour...)
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20090401 19:16:58< Shadow_Master> niadh: I expect him to be around in 1 or three hours
20090401 19:17:03< niadh> okies thanks
20090401 19:17:34< Shadow_Master> niadh: in the worst case he won't appear today. The deadline for his appearance is usually 00:00 GMT+01
20090401 19:18:03< Shadow_Master> but let's be optimisitic and hope he appears. Try to implement it in a patch for the time being :=
20090401 19:18:07< niadh> Well I'm still writing all my proposals atm, so no rush
20090401 19:18:10< boucman> Crab_: make sure you update http://wesnoth.org/wiki/FormulaAI#How_formulas_get_called (you might want to do a paragraph marked as {{DevFeature}} if it makes things more readable)
20090401 19:18:10< Shadow_Master> s/=/\)/
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20090401 19:20:20< Crab_> boucman: ok, I'll do it, but a bit later
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20090401 19:22:37< Crab_> boucman: there's a still 1 small more patch to commit regarding fallback behavior. I'll commit it today, and then document the resulting situation.
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20090401 19:23:01< boucman> no problem, as long as you document eventually, I'm happy :)
20090401 19:23:08< Crab_> ok )
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20090401 19:40:27< Velory> hi boucman
20090401 19:40:49< boucman> hey
20090401 19:40:56< zookeeper> esr, i wrote a bit of something for you to add to your campaign howto: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m13cd3a49 i left it to you to do the text polishing, it's a bit rough and maybe you don't need to include all of that (like the numbers table).
20090401 19:41:04< Velory> boucman: Do u have any time to look at my healing improvement patch ? :S
20090401 19:41:21< boucman> Velory: I havn't looked at patches yet tonight
20090401 19:41:27< boucman> i'll do my best but no promises
20090401 19:41:39< boucman> oh, BTW, everybody
20090401 19:41:49< esr> zookeeper: Thanks.
20090401 19:42:03< boucman> we had a call by Leslie (GSoC manager) asking us to forward a call to all potential GSoC students
20090401 19:42:33< boucman> she would like those of you who havn't yet to register your proposal on the google page, so they can have an estimate of the number of students this yer
20090401 19:42:35< boucman> year
20090401 19:42:53< boucman> it's ok if it's incomplete, you can still update your wiki page on the wesnoth site
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20090401 19:45:13< zookeeper> esr, goes in the section where you discuss gold carryover, naturally..
20090401 19:45:17 * zookeeper goes afk
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20090401 19:47:45< CIA-30> soliton * r34376 /branches/1.6/src/server/game.cpp: only not send the game ended message when the game was not started
20090401 19:48:24< CIA-30> soliton * r34377 /trunk/src/server/game.cpp: only not send the game ended message when the game was not started
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20090401 20:03:40< casinaroyale> !next
20090401 20:03:57< casinaroyale> oops, wrong channel
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20090401 20:11:17< crimson_penguin> any schedule for 1.6.1?
20090401 20:12:20< boucman> zookeeper: around ?
20090401 20:13:31-!- Turuk [n=Turuk@wesnoth/forumsith/turuk] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090401 20:13:40< molgrum> CMake Error at cmake/FindBoost.cmake:392 (MESSAGE):
20090401 20:13:40< molgrum>   Please install the Boost libraries AND development packages
20090401 20:13:48< molgrum> (cygwin)
20090401 20:14:04< molgrum> i installed all the packages afaik
20090401 20:15:46< molgrum> weird, i have boost and boost-devel
20090401 20:16:22< loonycyborg> Which distro?
20090401 20:16:45< Ivanovic> molgrum: you can always fix this by hand by calling eg ccmake on the current folder and insert the correct paths by hand
20090401 20:17:03< Ivanovic> afk for a while, football
20090401 20:17:05< Ivanovic> :)
20090401 20:17:54< boucman> you mean soccer, I guess :P
20090401 20:19:06< Ivanovic> boucman: in england this is called "football", too
20090401 20:19:07< Ivanovic> ;)
20090401 20:19:25< Blueblaze> boucman: It's called football everywhere except America basically :P
20090401 20:19:48< boucman> guess where I leanrt english :P
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20090401 20:21:50< molgrum> loonycyborg: cygwin
20090401 20:22:00< molgrum> not sure what to do here
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20090401 20:24:21< Ivanovic> boucman: in france?
20090401 20:24:22< Ivanovic> ;)
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20090401 20:25:07< loonycyborg> molgrum: Where's boost installed under cygwin?
20090401 20:25:37< molgrum>  /usr/lib i believe
20090401 20:25:44< molgrum> there's alot of libboost_* there
20090401 20:26:06< molgrum> the headers seem to have its own directory though
20090401 20:28:20< loonycyborg> I don't have much experience with cygwin, I use scons and mingw to compile on windows.
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20090401 20:29:21< loonycyborg> Though in this case boost seems to be installed in unexpected for cmake location and the only way is to specify it..
20090401 20:45:21< esr> zookeeper: New Campaign Design HOWTO version is uploaded.
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20090401 20:50:23< boucman> j/msg wesbot
20090401 20:55:49< Velory> Crab_:  around?
20090401 20:55:55< Crab_> yes
20090401 20:56:03< Velory> i saw your comment for my patch
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20090401 20:56:14< Velory> for 11 units can u give me locations or something ? :D
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20090401 20:57:34< Crab_> it is test case 1 from AI arena scenario. if you work with recent svn, you can just use it. if you don't, I can give you the locations (on the den of onis, that is)
20090401 20:58:35< Velory> hmm i have svn version but i dont compile it ok i can compile first
20090401 20:59:03< Crab_> http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m33f2345
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20090401 21:01:55< Velory> thanks
20090401 21:02:45-!- alink [n=alink@78.129.18.215] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090401 21:02:50< Crab_> Velory: so, two methods for you: 1) do not compile, just make a test scenario based on the Den of Onis and insert there those units from pastebin
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20090401 21:03:33< Velory> i did that
20090401 21:03:34< Velory> :)
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20090401 21:03:45< Velory> hmm yes too much waiting
20090401 21:03:51< Velory> not error but yes too long
20090401 21:05:13< Velory> Crab_: maybe its because functions like that http://pastebin.com/d588e0e0e
20090401 21:05:15-!- niadh [n=niadh@78-86-134-181.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Ex-Chat"]
20090401 21:05:27< Crab_> second way: 2) compile trunk, and make your test work with AI arena. ( see how I've added your poisoning improvements to work with it, or just use patch  http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m50ee8d10 )
20090401 21:06:04-!- Espreon [n=espreon@wesnoth/developer/espreon] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090401 21:06:45< Crab_> Velory: maybe. 
20090401 21:07:43< Velory> Crab_:  in my version wait time is like 4,5 seconds
20090401 21:07:48< Velory> what about yours ?
20090401 21:08:07< Velory> or 3,4 seconds
20090401 21:08:10< Crab_> Velory: 15+ minutes and then i've killed it )
20090401 21:08:15< Velory> :S
20090401 21:08:19< Velory> really omg :D
20090401 21:08:35< cjhopman> yeah, but Crab_ is on a commodore 64
20090401 21:09:11-!- euschn [n=chatzill@85-127-114-21.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090401 21:09:16< euschn> evening
20090401 21:09:23< boucman> evening euschn
20090401 21:09:28< boucman> I've commented on your patch
20090401 21:09:32< boucman> it's pretty good overall
20090401 21:09:33< euschn> boucman: thanks for your comment just saw it
20090401 21:09:43< euschn> do you have a minute to discuss your questions?
20090401 21:09:50< boucman> sure
20090401 21:09:56< euschn> ok, on mountain_name2
20090401 21:10:32< Velory> cjhopman: hehe :)
20090401 21:10:42< euschn> the name is crappy i admit, but it has a purpose: its for named mountains only - since only a few are named, you cannot have village names use $mountain when close to an unnamed mountain
20090401 21:11:00< Crab_> cjhopman: ))
20090401 21:11:17< euschn> so villages next to named mountians use mountain_name2, the others use name
20090401 21:11:24< Velory> Crab_: is there any possiblty that its because AI_arena ? :S 
20090401 21:11:33< cjhopman> boucman: saw your message from lh so I submitted a skeleton application
20090401 21:11:40< boucman> euschn: so one is for villages close to anonymous mountains, and the other for villages close to named mountains ?
20090401 21:11:45< Velory> i didnt tested ai_arena
20090401 21:11:54< euschn> boucman: exactly
20090401 21:12:01< boucman> cjhopman: I saw that, I wanted to post a comment but decided against :)
20090401 21:12:11< euschn> so village_name_mountain_anonymous might eb better?
20090401 21:12:12< boucman> hmm, two thoughts come to me
20090401 21:12:16< Crab_> Velory: try it ) basically, yes, there is a slight possibility (there is 3 additional units present in the pockets off-map)
20090401 21:12:24< boucman> 1) you really need to rename :)
20090401 21:12:32< euschn> agreed :)
20090401 21:12:50< boucman> 2) is it worth having a case for anonymous mountain villages, or wouldn't using standard villages be enough ?
20090401 21:12:53< Velory> Crab_:  ok :)
20090401 21:13:48< euschn> boucman: ok that might be a valid point - the thing was anonymous mountain naming was already in before, and it added to the diversity of names, so i kept it
20090401 21:13:59< euschn> and naming every mountian was too much spam
20090401 21:14:10< boucman> ok, make sense
20090401 21:14:10< Rhonda> Alright, where is Ivanovic's april fool's thread?
20090401 21:14:28< euschn> ok names for single tile forests/swamps:
20090401 21:14:44< boucman> smal detail, you should add "$name upon $river" as an example of river name, so translators see that the variable $name is still available
20090401 21:14:46< euschn> Im afraid I do not know a way to fix those easily, the way I did it
20090401 21:14:57< boucman> some languages might need it more than other, so an example would be usefull
20090401 21:15:00< Velory> Crab_: i tested default ai wait time with no candidate moves 11+ healable units wait time is 3,4 seconds also
20090401 21:15:11< euschn> ok will do
20090401 21:15:22< Crab_> Velory: default_ai is quick )
20090401 21:15:28< boucman> euschn: you could check you are not at level zero of recursivity, it means at least to tiles...
20090401 21:16:08< euschn> boucman: good point, did not think of that
20090401 21:16:24< boucman> euschn: your patch is mostly good at this point, most of my remarks are suggestions, not "must do"
20090401 21:16:39-!- res|laptop [n=res@pdpc/supporter/student/res2k] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090401 21:16:40< boucman> but some of them might be trivial, so better add them while you have your nose in the code :)
20090401 21:17:01< Velory> Crab_:  yes but 2,3 seconds when using default ai ------- 3,4 seconds when using candidate moves :)
20090401 21:17:04< euschn> so that would solve large forest naming too, i.e., repeat the name at every level of recursion that is a multiple of n?
20090401 21:17:49< Velory> 15 min - 4 sec = 14 min 56 sec hmmm
20090401 21:18:08< Velory> well i will try on my laptop :D
20090401 21:18:20< Crab_> Velory: yes. for me, it moves the healer pretty quickly, and then it starts to think...
20090401 21:18:22< Velory> with ai_arena
20090401 21:18:38< Velory> hmm
20090401 21:18:43< euschn> boucman: ok - please do not think of me as a slacker or anything, but I have been working on this since saturday (task changes and discussions took some time), and I have not finsihed my proposal due to that, so Id really like to get it done soon so I can spend the last hours till friday thinking about savegames
20090401 21:18:55< boucman> euschn: with the way propagate, It's hard to imagine how it would work, but it's probably good enough
20090401 21:19:27< euschn> boucman: ok
20090401 21:19:28< Crab_> Velory: btw, your poisoning improvements look good (I've tested them on AI arena too). 
20090401 21:19:30< Velory> Crab_:  u tested in debug mode right so u didnt took a error or something ?
20090401 21:19:35< boucman> euschn: no problem, the google application deadline is only for google proposal submission, we start reviewing later than that
20090401 21:19:39< Velory> Crab_: thanks :)
20090401 21:20:09< euschn> btw, by "blocking remark" you mean its mandatory to fix right?
20090401 21:20:09< boucman> one last Idea I didn't mention,  you say in a comment that you add names to forest after road layout so they are correctly split...
20090401 21:20:23< Velory> Crab_:  So if healer moving quickly then if its because of my candidate moves its in units_heal_control.fai
20090401 21:20:37< boucman> however, it might make sense to do it before, so forest on both side of road have the same name
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20090401 21:20:42< boucman> (even more for rivers)
20090401 21:20:47< boucman> right
20090401 21:20:51< Velory> but the most crowded function in unit_heal_control is
20090401 21:20:52< Velory> where healer = find(filter(my_units,'unit',distance_between(unit.loc,me.loc) <= me.total_movement+1 ),index_of('healing',abilities) != -1)
20090401 21:21:02< Crab_> Velory: your poisoning.fai doesn't take units-in-vlllages into account, but it acts smarter than default_ai )
20090401 21:21:07< euschn> boucman: that was mostly a guess I admit, I did it last for safety
20090401 21:21:19< euschn> rivers work like that anyway
20090401 21:21:22< Velory> Crab_:  hmm
20090401 21:21:31< Velory> Crab_: i can improve that i think
20090401 21:21:39< boucman> euschn: please add a comment in the patch stating that you are mostly busy, so I don't bug you uselessly about that patch :)
20090401 21:21:57< Crab_> Velory: just watch for yourself )
20090401 21:23:45< euschn> boucman: I welcome all suggestions really, and Im totally motivated to submit a decent patch, but I have the feeling I have to decide what to concentrate on tommorow or friday, finishing the proposal or improving the patch
20090401 21:24:02< euschn> that is, I will add the small changes right now anyways
20090401 21:24:21< boucman> euschn: you probably have time to do both before our deadline anyway
20090401 21:24:41< boucman> and at this point we have an example of your code, so youu might as well concentrate on the proposal
20090401 21:25:51< euschn> boucman: ok, I think its doable too
20090401 21:26:41< euschn> a question related to that: can anyone of you recommend any decent auto-formating tools? or should I just train harder to improve my style?
20090401 21:27:07< Velory> Crab_:  did u tested my improvement without ai_arena?
20090401 21:27:38< Crab_> Velory: poisoning - yes, healing - no.
20090401 21:27:45 * boucman uses vim's autoindent
20090401 21:27:54< Velory> Crab_:  can u test healing too ? 
20090401 21:28:00< boucman> i'm not sure what pertty-printer other use, though
20090401 21:28:14< Velory> Crab_:  i can give you coordinates for adding scenario-poisoning
20090401 21:28:26< Velory> i mean unit coodinates
20090401 21:28:39< euschn> boucman: thanks I will check it out
20090401 21:28:42< Crab_> Velory: I saw the patch
20090401 21:29:03< Velory> Crab_: no new coodinates for 11+ unit
20090401 21:29:10< boucman> euschn: if you don't know vim already, I don't think learning vim just for formating is woth it :)
20090401 21:29:20< Velory> Crab_:  what you mean with i saw the patch?
20090401 21:29:51< euschn> I do know vim, though Im more comfortable with netbeans for a project of this size
20090401 21:30:26< boucman> euschn: I usually reindent with gg=G
20090401 21:30:47< Crab_> Velory: there's a diff of all the files that are needed, so I don't need the coords.
20090401 21:30:50< euschn> bouchman: um what do you mean by that?
20090401 21:31:02< boucman> gg : go to first line
20090401 21:31:10< boucman> = : reindent until...
20090401 21:31:15< boucman> G : ...end of file
20090401 21:31:25< Velory> Crab_:  ok
20090401 21:32:34< euschn> boucman: ah, so its ok to reindent the whole file?
20090401 21:33:02< boucman> nope, but theoretically it should be already correctly indented
20090401 21:33:11< boucman> pressing == will reindent a single line, though
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20090401 21:46:57< zookeeper> boucman, yes, what's up?
20090401 21:47:58< boucman> zookeeper: is there a terrain letter combination that would mean "all forest" that would be forward compatible (it will be hardwired in code)
20090401 21:48:12< boucman> same for swamps/mountain/water etc...
20090401 21:48:27< boucman> euschn: that's a question that I'm asking for your patch
20090401 21:48:29< zookeeper> i'm not sure what you mean
20090401 21:48:51< zookeeper> terrain letter combination?
20090401 21:48:58< boucman> euschn wrote a patch for random map generation that names all sort of map features, including forest, mountain ranges etc...
20090401 21:49:16< zookeeper> *^F* matches all current and future forests, in case that's of any help
20090401 21:49:28< boucman> zookeeper: yes, that's exactly it, thx
20090401 21:49:36< zookeeper> ok
20090401 21:49:43< boucman> euschn: check what zookeeper just said :)
20090401 21:49:45< euschn> can i use regular expressions in the terrain constructor?
20090401 21:50:17< boucman> that's a good question, but it's worth exploring, since not using regex might lead to hard to find bugs in the future
20090401 21:52:27< euschn> boucman: well the fastest solution would be to add a translation::t_list "allforests" with those 5 terrain codes no? 
20090401 21:52:56< boucman> euschn: what if we add a sixth type of forest ? :)
20090401 21:53:01< boucman> regex would still work
20090401 21:53:06< euschn> sorry just read forward compatible
20090401 21:53:11< euschn> you are right of course
20090401 21:53:25< boucman> np :)
20090401 21:53:40< boucman> performance is not really an issue here, since it's at map creation time
20090401 21:54:05< euschn> mhm
20090401 21:55:07-!- happygrue [n=George@wesnoth/developer/wintermute] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
20090401 21:57:19< kitty_> i've got a problem with the text on dialogues/menues since 1.6. is that a known bug? http://imagebin.ca/view/kbKzSU.html http://imagebin.ca/view/iBVt8mZ.html
20090401 22:00:08< boucman> ouch
20090401 22:00:19< boucman> looks like a bad font problem to me...
20090401 22:00:29< boucman> Ivanovic: any idea ?
20090401 22:01:03< kitty_> which is the standard wesnoth font i should keep activated?
20090401 22:01:54< boucman> no idea, what OS are you using ?
20090401 22:02:07< kitty_> mac
20090401 22:02:42< loonycyborg> kitty_: Probably that's something Mac-specific. Ask crimson_penguin.
20090401 22:03:02< crimson_penguin> kitty_: Arial Unicode MS
20090401 22:04:03-!- Sparks_ [n=Sparkste@78-105-212-150.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090401 22:04:30< Sparks_> Hello everyone :) 
20090401 22:04:33< kitty_> crimson_penguin: thank you! activating arial helped!
20090401 22:04:34< Sparks_> poo
20090401 22:04:36< boucman> hey Sparks_
20090401 22:04:36< Ivanovic> crimson_penguin: you asked about 1.6.1 plans: i currently plan it for sunday
20090401 22:04:42< Sparks_> sorry my brother again :(
20090401 22:04:45< Ivanovic> Rhonda: there is no april fools day thread today
20090401 22:04:50< boucman> Ivanovic: sounds good
20090401 22:04:54< loonycyborg> Ivanovic: :(
20090401 22:05:04< Ivanovic> at least none by me, i am busy with football...
20090401 22:05:09< boucman> cjhopman: you probably want to commit your perf patch to trunk before that...
20090401 22:05:17< Sparks_> boucman: thanks for the comments the other day by the way
20090401 22:05:22< boucman> np
20090401 22:05:38< boucman> I'd rather tell you early about our AI stance before you got lost in a bad direction
20090401 22:05:39< crimson_penguin> there is an April fools plan, which should come into effect later today...
20090401 22:06:39< Ivanovic> boucman: uhm, the first 1.7.x release will be some time in may...
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20090401 22:06:51< boucman> oh, oops
20090401 22:06:54< crimson_penguin> I hope I can do my part though; might have to leave too soon
20090401 22:06:54< boucman> misunderstood :P
20090401 22:07:22< niadh> Hey I'm a gsoc student and I'm wondering if there's anyone around atm who can just briefly tell me if my wiki pages need anything else added?
20090401 22:08:10< boucman> niadh: we only comment once you have registered at google usually
20090401 22:08:24< boucman> make sure you have a link to your wiki page in your gsoc application
20090401 22:08:36< niadh> I am registered I believe, or do you mean after I have submitted a project proposal?
20090401 22:09:06< Ivanovic> after it is submitted
20090401 22:09:13< niadh> right ok
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20090401 22:09:53< niadh> since I am submitting a new idea I just fill that in on google then?
20090401 22:10:49< boucman> yes
20090401 22:11:00< boucman> you can always update your wiki page after submiting, anyway
20090401 22:11:53< niadh> Fair enough, and once I submitted the project proposal that me done until the deadline passes?
20090401 22:12:19< niadh> Not that I'm trying to get things out the way, I'm just a bit unsure what I am supposed to be doine
20090401 22:12:23< niadh> doing*
20090401 22:13:10< boucman> niadh: as far as google is concerned, yes, your proposal is registered
20090401 22:13:18< niadh> Oh fantastic
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20090401 22:15:16< Velory> boucman:  by the way i updated my proposal like u wanted i didnt remember if i said that before.if yes sorry about that 
20090401 22:16:00< boucman> ok
20090401 22:16:36< Sparks_> hi guys, could anyone please tell me how I can upload liek a zip file or something to the wiki (as part of the GSoC proposal?)
20090401 22:16:38< Velory> boucman:  i also wrote a timeline when u have some empty time please review and comment me if you can
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20090401 22:17:33< boucman> Velory: I have lots of applications to review, trust me :)
20090401 22:17:50< Sparks_> :)
20090401 22:18:10< Velory> boucman:  always :)
20090401 22:19:05< Velory> Sparks_:  u want to bring link ?
20090401 22:19:09< Velory> Sparks_:  to wiki page?
20090401 22:19:31< Velory> see http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/Help:Editing
20090401 22:19:40< Velory> especially http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/Help:Links
20090401 22:19:41< Sparks_> Velory: i'll look now thx :)
20090401 22:19:57< Velory> and u can also take a look at my page
20090401 22:20:12< Velory> press edit and see how did i used them
20090401 22:20:39< Sparks_> cool... will it work for a zip file (it's a mini program I wanted to put on)..
20090401 22:20:55< Velory> Sparks_:  hmm
20090401 22:21:04< Velory> Sparks_:  i didnt used zip file 
20090401 22:21:14< Velory> Sparks_:  but i think u can upload rapid share
20090401 22:21:19< Velory> Sparks_:  then link
20090401 22:21:21< Sparks_> thx for the linkanyways... I'll give it a go now :)
20090401 22:21:30< Velory> Sparks_:  np
20090401 22:21:34< Velory> Sparks_: :)
20090401 22:22:02< Soliton> Sparks_: i don't know if file upload has been turned on for the wiki recently. if not you can always make a post in the forum and attach files there and link to them in the wiki.
20090401 22:22:39< Sparks_> o ok... I'm gonna try to do that now...  where int he forum?
20090401 22:23:01 * Soliton shrugs.
20090401 22:23:06< boucman> off-topic or coder's corner
20090401 22:23:22< Sparks_> ok :)
20090401 22:23:28< boucman> as long as you state in your post why you do that and ask for moderators to lock right away, it shouldn't be a problem
20090401 22:23:35< Velory> Sparks_:  or users forum mayne
20090401 22:23:40< Velory> s/mayne/maybe
20090401 22:31:45< euschn> boucman: Im just testing multiple forest/swamp labeling, you are right it does propagate weirdly, but I tinkered with the numbers a bit and I think it looks decent now
20090401 22:32:15< boucman> euschn: that's fine, village naming is not level A safety criticall :)
20090401 22:32:23 * boucman has been coding for airplanes for too long
20090401 22:32:26< euschn> hehe
20090401 22:33:46< euschn> I did it the way that there are at least 5 tiles between labels, but sometimes they are very far apart - if that is fine I will leave it at that for now
20090401 22:34:05< euschn> and resubmit the patch with that and the style/formal stuff
20090401 22:34:06< boucman> euschn: you juge
20090401 22:34:16< euschn> boucman: ok
20090401 22:34:17< boucman> (you can post a screenshot too, though :P )
20090401 22:34:22< Velory> i think wesnoths needs airplanes and cowboys O.o
20090401 22:34:26 * boucman loves screenshots
20090401 22:39:49< Ivanovic> Sparks_: post it in coders corner
20090401 22:40:00< Ivanovic> because in off topic after a month the post would be gone due to auto pruning
20090401 22:42:15< euschn> boucman: http://imagebin.org/44001 - newfen is about as frequent as it gets, but its mostly less frequent
20090401 22:43:53< VladimirSlavik_> Velory: somehow I feel that elves would like fighter jets
20090401 22:44:40< Velory> VladimirSlavik_: Hmm 
20090401 22:44:56< Velory> VladimirSlavik_: what about orcs :S
20090401 22:45:16< boucman> euschn: nice :)
20090401 22:45:30< VladimirSlavik_> Velory: towed arti, what else?
20090401 22:45:37< boucman> VladimirSlavik_: b52 flying forteress of course :)
20090401 22:46:36< euschn> boucman: ok, I will leave it at that then - the labeling decision looks a bit weird in the code, it was the result of trial and error what looked best
20090401 22:47:02< boucman> add a comment stating what was decided by trial/error and it will be fine
20090401 22:47:11< euschn> ok
20090401 22:47:52< boucman> cjhopman: about the wiki page: we had noticed it was wip ;)
20090401 22:48:12< Velory> VladimirSlavik_:  i thinks orcs like gliders :)
20090401 22:48:55< Velory> VladimirSlavik_:  aaand elves likes f117 :p
20090401 22:49:10< cjhopman> boucman: yeah, i figured it was currently pretty obvious... hopefully as i add more it will be less obvious, and when i get something with actual substance i will take down that note
20090401 22:50:04< Ivanovic> cjhopman: tststs
20090401 22:50:19< Ivanovic> shame on you, submitted to google, but not listed in the list of applications in the wiki
20090401 22:50:21< Ivanovic> ^^
20090401 22:51:51< cjhopman> :)
20090401 22:52:34-!- voris [n=voris@c-24-16-107-149.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090401 22:52:56< cjhopman> I think I submitted it to google even before I had started a wiki page for it
20090401 22:53:58< cjhopman> word was that google wanted us to at least have something submitted asap
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20090401 22:54:51< Ivanovic> yes
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20090401 23:06:23< Sparks_> boucman:  Ivanovic:   I have uploaded a small java program which i did last summer on the forum at   http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=24783  hopefully this will help my proposal... so if you would like to have a quick go :)
20090401 23:06:28< Sparks_> ?
20090401 23:08:11< boucman> Sparks_: not tonight for me, bed time soon
20090401 23:08:29< Sparks_> ok :)
20090401 23:09:04< Sparks_> is it late over there?
20090401 23:09:14< boucman> 11pm
20090401 23:09:37-!- Yexo_ [i=Yexo@32-88-ftth.onsneteindhoven.nl] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090401 23:09:59< voris> Sparks_: it would probably be a good idea to give a brief idea what the program does in your forum post. :)
20090401 23:10:00-!- Yexo is now known as Guest97403
20090401 23:10:14< VladimirSlavik_> good night, bye, and all that...
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20090401 23:10:27< Sparks_> o sorry... 1 sec...
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20090401 23:12:36< nagbot> Hello!
20090401 23:12:36< nagbot> Everyone who wants to participate in GSoC with Wesnoth:
20090401 23:12:36< nagbot> Register your proposal with Google
20090401 23:12:36< nagbot> You NEED to submit your application till 03.04.2009, 19:00 UTC
20090401 23:12:36< nagbot> Everyone not enlisted in the google tracker at that time will have *no* chance to participate with Wesnoth as part of summer of code 2009, no matter how good you communicated with us or *whatever* 
20090401 23:12:40< nagbot> You have been warned.
20090401 23:12:43< nagbot> Submit patches for review, so we'll see how you work.
20090401 23:12:46< nagbot> Join the IRC discussions. 
20090401 23:13:37< Sparks_> voris: a short description is there now :0
20090401 23:13:41< Sparks_> :0
20090401 23:13:43< Sparks_> :)
20090401 23:14:10< Sparks_> boucman: that sound liek somewher in europe :)
20090401 23:14:13< voris> Excellent.
20090401 23:14:15< boucman> France
20090401 23:14:33< Sparks_> o ... I wouldn't have thought you were french...  are you?
20090401 23:14:36< voris> UTC +1
20090401 23:14:39< voris> Right?
20090401 23:14:43< Sparks_> yup
20090401 23:14:56< boucman> I'm not sure with DST but is should be something like that
20090401 23:15:01< boucman> I am
20090401 23:15:16< Sapient> 03.04.2009 ... in the past?
20090401 23:15:29< boucman> I lived in NY when I was a kid so my english is better than average foreigner though
20090401 23:15:32< Ivanovic> voris: due to DST it is gmt+2 atm
20090401 23:15:39< voris> ah
20090401 23:15:52< voris> I always forget about stupid DST.
20090401 23:16:07< voris> That's why I always program to use UTC. :)
20090401 23:16:18< Sparks_> voris: actually if your interested in looking at the CPV thing i'd love to have some comments about features which might make it more interesting (do take the time to see the hover-box over each square btw)
20090401 23:16:54< Crab_> Sapient: DD.MM.YYYY ) I'll change it to say 'April' or 'Apr' next time
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20090401 23:17:13< Sparks_> boucman: have you been with wesnoth long?
20090401 23:17:18< boucman> hmm
20090401 23:17:20-!- Guest97403 [i=Yexo@32-88-ftth.onsneteindhoven.nl] has quit [Connection timed out]
20090401 23:17:21< boucman> since 0.7
20090401 23:17:26< Sparks_> ?
20090401 23:17:27< boucman> that was in 2005 IIRC
20090401 23:17:55< Sparks_> bouscman: do you actually play quite a bit, or just developing mainly?
20090401 23:17:55< Dragonking> Good evening everyone :)
20090401 23:18:00< Sparks_> hello
20090401 23:18:10< Crab_> hello, Dragonking
20090401 23:18:21< Velory> Hello,Dragonking
20090401 23:18:29-!- molgrum [n=molgrum@c83-249-53-163.bredband.comhem.se] has quit ["Lämnar"]
20090401 23:18:39< Sparks_> ooo...  2 people want to try my program :)
20090401 23:18:39< euschn> boucman: I submitted a patch with style fixes and the improved forest labeling - I think I will leave it at that until I got my proposal sorted
20090401 23:19:23< boucman> ok, do you want me to commit, or do you intend to work on it more in the future
20090401 23:19:37< voris> Sparks_, i'm firing up eclipse now
20090401 23:19:55< boucman> (from a evaluation point of view, both are equivalent, it's more to simplify your work on the patch)
20090401 23:19:57< euschn> boucman: hm to be honest, I am quite content with how it is now
20090401 23:20:05< Sparks_> voris: you can just do java .... if you like :)
20090401 23:20:07< boucman> ok, I will review and commit, then
20090401 23:20:11< euschn> thanks
20090401 23:20:40< voris> Not sure what you mean, but I use eclipse for all my java programming. :)
20090401 23:20:56< Crab_> Dragonking, in your opinion, how https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?13295 should be fixed ? 1) by patching enemy_units or 2) by introducing a new function ? 
20090401 23:21:03< Sparks_> just a quick question... the link to the forum post seems to change every time.....  can people still reach it via the old one?
20090401 23:22:13< Dragonking> Crab_: By adding option to explicity specify enemies for a side.
20090401 23:22:15< Soliton> remove dynamic stuff like your session id or whatever.
20090401 23:22:18< voris> http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=24783 still opens that post.
20090401 23:22:31< Sparks_> cool... just tried it lol
20090401 23:23:00< boucman> Dragonking, Crab_, this bug should be already marked as fixed in 1.6a
20090401 23:23:03-!- jmunro is now known as jmunro[a]
20090401 23:23:20< boucman> there is an option in side_wml to specify that a side should be invisible in the stat tables
20090401 23:23:20< Dragonking> boucman: Who and how fixed that?
20090401 23:23:31< boucman> I remember comiting a patch about that some time ago
20090401 23:23:39< Dragonking> boucman: No, it won't work for that.
20090401 23:23:49< boucman> oh ?
20090401 23:23:50< Crab_> boucman: I can confirm that it is present in trunk
20090401 23:24:01< boucman> aaah
20090401 23:24:24< boucman> ok, it's not about stat tables, it's about FAI :)
20090401 23:24:36< Dragonking> Yup, :)
20090401 23:24:39-!- crimson_penguin [n=ben@wesnoth/developer/crimsonpenguin] has quit ["Leaving"]
20090401 23:25:04< boucman> yeah, I guess all unit tables should skip incapacitated units since incapacitated units are always Scenario features...
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20090401 23:28:17< Dragonking> Yup, we could check for that in enemy_units... I think. If we spot situation where such behavious is not desired we can change it.
20090401 23:28:30< Dragonking> behaviour'
20090401 23:29:01< euschn> Im off for today, good night
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20090401 23:29:43< Crab_> Dragonking, so, let's make "enemy_units" skip stoned units by default ?
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20090401 23:30:17< Dragonking> I think we can do that.
20090401 23:30:38< Sparks_> Crab_:  I didn't know regualr units could stone ppl usually?
20090401 23:31:18< Crab_> Sparks: no. but of course the scenario editor may make them to do so 
20090401 23:31:47< Sparks_> o I see...   :)  I thought I was missing out lol
20090401 23:33:04< Crab_> of course, it can be done even now with "filter(enemy_units,index_of('stoned',keys(self.states))<0) "
20090401 23:33:21< Dragonking> What about state = poisoned
20090401 23:33:21< Dragonking> ?
20090401 23:33:35< Dragonking> Ah nvm
20090401 23:33:36< Crab_> Dragonking: what this has to do with stoned ?
20090401 23:33:41 * voris hands Sparks_ a commenting gold star
20090401 23:33:46< boucman> Crab_: please use the more generic unit.incapacitated() on the c++ side
20090401 23:33:52< Crab_> ok
20090401 23:33:54< Dragonking> Crab_: Didn't notice index_of
20090401 23:34:14< Sparks_> voris: many thanks... :)  I really enjoyed that little project :)
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20090401 23:35:01< Sparks_> voris: any suggestions for other interesting features?  It was originally for a Maths Lecturer..
20090401 23:35:01-!- alink [n=alink@wesnoth/developer/alink] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090401 23:35:16< voris> Still looking it over.
20090401 23:35:33< Sparks_> cool...  no bugs so far I hope... 
20090401 23:35:43< voris> It looks pretty good. My initial comments would be mostly readability ones.
20090401 23:35:59< voris> Like the 161 column wide comment lines. ;)
20090401 23:36:06< Sparks_> o... that's interesting.... which particulars?
20090401 23:36:14< Sparks_> o code readbility...
20090401 23:36:29< Sparks_> I do tend to comment a little explicitly... :P
20090401 23:36:32< voris> Also some of your math blocks start to look like html without some spacing. :)
20090401 23:36:42< Turuk> Sparks_, per the earlier discussion, would you like me to lock your thread to avoid extraneous comments?
20090401 23:36:43< voris> The verbosity isn't an issue.
20090401 23:36:47-!- kitty_ [n=kitty@wesnoth/artist/kitty] has quit ["night"]
20090401 23:36:52< voris> The lack of wrapping to multiple lines is. 
20090401 23:37:28< Sparks_> Turuk:  ummm... I would quite like people to comment on it...  because I wouldn't mind improving that little program a little... wil people still be able to if locked?
20090401 23:37:49< Turuk> Developers could, just not random people, so I'll leave it open then.  Just checking :)
20090401 23:38:16< Sparks_> ok thanks :)
20090401 23:39:08< Sparks_> Turuk:  have you ha da go yet...  it says 3 downlodas so far and I'm just trying to think who else has looked at it ... :P
20090401 23:39:48< Turuk> I haven't downloaded it yet no, just looked at the thread.  My job is to read everything. ;)
20090401 23:40:44< Turuk> Plus my input is not going to help, my coding skills compared to those in here is like comparing an ant to an elephant.
20090401 23:40:52< Sparks_> gosh... you must have good eyes... doing that job... :)
20090401 23:41:04< voris> Man, I forgot how much I dislike swing sometimes. :)
20090401 23:41:26< Sparks_> voris: why?
20090401 23:42:13< voris> It's just ugly to read and the results are often kludgy.
20090401 23:42:25< voris> But I give them props for making it cross platform. :)
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20090401 23:43:33< Sparks_> well i guess that's th emain adv...  I find that swing does tend to be a bit slow and refresh rather slowly....  I tried my program on a 500 by 500 board once... :P that was ... interesting 
20090401 23:44:27< Ivanovic> voris: uhm, gtk and qt are cross platform, too (though personally i do not like gtk too much, especially since graphical user interfaces are IMO one of the areas where object orientation makes lots of sense...)
20090401 23:45:11< Turuk> Sparks_: good eyes, and the patience to read through everything ;)
20090401 23:45:17< Sparks_> lol
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20090401 23:48:02< boucman> night all
20090401 23:48:11< Dragonking> gn boucman 
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20090401 23:48:41< voris> Ivanovic: yes, I was being sloppy in what I said.
20090401 23:48:50< voris> I should have said write once, run everywhere.
20090401 23:49:04< voris> And I was more comparing to SWT since it's a java thing. 
20090401 23:50:28< Ivanovic> uhm, gtk and qt stuff you *write* only once, too
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20090401 23:50:40< Ivanovic> you only got to recompile for the target platform
20090401 23:52:15< voris> Fair enough.
20090401 23:52:51< Ivanovic> and you still need a jvm on the target platform
20090401 23:53:02< voris> Oh sure.
20090401 23:53:05< Ivanovic> a jvm supporting the set of commands you are actually using in the program
20090401 23:53:20< voris> This is totally a competing java toolkits thing.
20090401 23:53:36< voris> SWT is "nicer" but there's a lot of hassle compiling for each platform.
20090401 23:53:42< Ivanovic> (which especially gets interesting for mobile devices since there is mainly just a cripled version available)
20090401 23:53:54< voris> While swing is kludgy but you just have to build it once.
20090401 23:54:05< Sparks_> ... have I started a rather lengthy debate lol ... :)
20090401 23:54:13< Sparks_> oops... :)
20090401 23:55:04< voris> So your code looks pretty clean and it's fast (discounting the swing crap which does not like my multiple monitor virtual screen environment...)
20090401 23:55:28< voris> I'm unsure why you can orient the pawns in all four directions though. :)
20090401 23:55:43< voris> Two seems like it would have been fine.
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20090401 23:57:44< Sparks_> voris:  because the pawns can face all four directions, the particular n queens problem which cause this program to be made didn't really have '2' opposing sides..  :)
20090401 23:58:03< Sparks_> so just kind of any assorted number of pieces on the board :)
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20090401 23:58:52< Sparks_> (only the pawns' threat ranges were not symmetrical about all 4 directions)
20090401 23:59:07< voris> ahhh
20090401 23:59:20< voris> I suspected it might have been related to the problem in question. 
20090401 23:59:33< aeonphyxius> hi all
20090401 23:59:39< Sparks_> they do look a little wierd though I must admit ;)   i had never seen a sideways pawn before this program ;)
20090401 23:59:52< Sparks_> aeonphyxius: hello
--- Log closed Thu Apr 02 00:00:30 2009