--- Log opened Sat Apr 04 00:00:02 2009
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20090404 00:09:13-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.6.1 planned for Sunday | Summer of Code info: http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/SummerOfCodeIdeas | 52 bugs, 231 feature requests, 9 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20090404 00:17:02< CIA-30> esr * r34444 /trunk/data/tools/wesnoth/wmliterator.py: Fix a claim in a comment that is no longer correct.
20090404 00:20:48< boucman> night all
20090404 00:20:54< Crab_> night, boucman
20090404 00:20:59< Crab_> Dragonking, around ?
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20090404 00:23:33< crimson_penguin> silene: well if not, do you think cmd+q should kill the game?
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20090404 00:23:57< crimson_penguin> if so, I could just remove the cmd+q shortcut for Wesnoth
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20090404 00:25:05< Dragonking> Crab_: Yes?
20090404 00:25:09< Crab_> Dragonking:  what do you think about http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m15848e3a   - mainly, using new config parameter recruitment_algorithm=formula_ai (to be put inside [ai]) to enable .fai recruitment  ?
20090404 00:25:34< Crab_> is this way of doing it ok ? or is there a better way ?
20090404 00:25:43< Dragonking> Do we really need that?
20090404 00:25:52< Dragonking> Jst check if recruit= is empty or not
20090404 00:26:06< Dragonking> If it is not, then let formula AI use it.
20090404 00:27:23< Dragonking> I would like to avoid unneded parameters.
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20090404 00:27:33< Crab_> and what if we'll have 2+ different recruitment strategies in the future ?
20090404 00:27:45< Dragonking> Then we will change it.
20090404 00:28:18< Dragonking> I don't see need for 2 different, and 2 different can be implemented by single formula too, just with some if(..)
20090404 00:28:38< Crab_> if's are, imo, more evil that config parameters :) but ok, i'll change to 'recruit' then )
20090404 00:29:05< Crab_> Dragonking: btw, recruit is now located/documented in the [side] tag, not in the [ai] tag, which is not good
20090404 00:29:32< Dragonking> How come?
20090404 00:29:40< Dragonking> It is checked in formula AI as ai paramter
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20090404 00:30:49< Crab_> Dragonking:  http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/SideWML
20090404 00:30:57< Crab_> there is a recruit parameter documented there
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20090404 00:31:49< Dragonking> But it is different one
20090404 00:32:02< Crab_> yes. but it is not good, that they are named the same.
20090404 00:32:23< Dragonking> Then rename this one from [ai] it to recruitment=
20090404 00:32:29< Crab_> ok
20090404 00:34:36< Crab_> that's because some people may make an error with them, and it will harder to check for such errors with wmllint if they are named the same (it'll have to look at the content, not just at tag name/location to determine if it is ok or not)
20090404 00:36:11< Dragonking> Yup, I know that
20090404 00:36:13< Dragonking> :)
20090404 00:37:01< Crab_> there's a "recruitment_pattern" in [ai], that's for default ai recruitment. and I'll add a "recruitment", that'll be for formula_ai
20090404 00:37:26< Dragonking> Great.
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20090404 00:39:56< Ivanovic> okay, did some matching on the wiki pages, for everyone interested: http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/SummerOfCodeIdeas#GSoC_Student_pages
20090404 00:40:02< Crab_> Dragonking: I'll leave the wiki documentation of "recruitment" (in   http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/AiWML ) to you.
20090404 00:40:13< Dragonking> Crab_: Ok
20090404 00:40:24< Dragonking> I'll change way how it work anyway :)
20090404 00:40:54< Crab_> it will look like http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m6cb08b69
20090404 00:42:43< Crab_> Dragonking:  so, to fallback, 1) default_ai has to be master   2) "recruitment" must be set in [ai] for this turn/time of day,  3) formula_ai will be created on first access.
20090404 00:42:49< Ivanovic> so 22 of our 35 proposals got a wiki page (not rated how recent and good they are though!)
20090404 00:42:53< Crab_> Dragonking:  see the bug ? 
20090404 00:43:42< Crab_> Dragonking: if the user specifies different recruit formulas for different time-of-days, it wont work as intended (because that formula is created in constructor of formula_ai). Be sure to either fix or document it )
20090404 00:44:09< Dragonking> Honestly
20090404 00:44:24< Dragonking> Switching config to do such thing seems like a failure
20090404 00:44:26< silene> crimson_penguin: yes, this may be the solution; but i don't know what macosx users expect
20090404 00:44:57< crimson_penguin> cmd+q is pretty much expected to just quit the program, unless there's a state that may want to be saved
20090404 00:45:07< crimson_penguin> I think in this case it's OK to just quit though, because of auto-save
20090404 00:45:49< Dragonking> Crab_: So we would need to check EVERYTHING every turn, if we don't have different candidate moves for time of day, different main formula, recreate function tables
20090404 00:45:55< Dragonking> Makes no sense imho.
20090404 00:46:54< Crab_> Dragonking: then 1) document it. 2) use global ai parameters instead of ai parameters to get the recruitment formula (if you want to , I can add a convenience method to team.hpp )
20090404 00:47:28< Dragonking> And what about move= ? Same problem if changed.
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20090404 00:47:54< Crab_> because ai_parameters(), in fact, return effective ai parameters, not global ai parameters (global are those which are independent of time of day, turn)
20090404 00:50:09< Crab_> Dragonking: so, what should I do ? should I add the convenience method for accessing global ai parameters to team.hpp ? 
20090404 00:50:22< Dragonking> Yes, would be best
20090404 00:51:43< Crab_> Dragonking:  [ of course, you can always do something like ai_manager::get_active_ai_global_parameters_for_team( get_info().team_num) ) , but current_team().global_ai_parameters() is nicer :) ]
20090404 00:51:57< Dragonking> Sure. :)
20090404 00:51:58< silene> crimson_penguin: yes, and at least the behavior will match other platforms; it's a bit unfortunate though that the close hotkey of wesnoth happens to be the kill hotkey of macosx
20090404 00:52:33< Dragonking> Also I think that recruitment= should be executed even if default AI is no master
20090404 00:52:50< Crab_> Dragonking: and what ai should do the recruitment, then ?
20090404 00:52:56< crimson_penguin> silene: Maybe we could change it... is it ctrl+q on other platforms?
20090404 00:53:07< Crab_> Dragonking: if the default ai is not master, it is NOT ALLOWED to create other AIs )
20090404 00:53:16< silene> crimson_penguin: yes
20090404 00:53:29< Dragonking> Then it means formula AI already exist and it fallback to default
20090404 00:54:08< crimson_penguin> hmm... I wonder what a good alternative would be
20090404 00:54:09< Crab_> Dragonking: that means that formula_ai is master ?
20090404 00:54:19< Dragonking> Crab_: It wouldbe useful if we specify candidate moves and recruitment but not move=
20090404 00:54:25< Dragonking> Crab_: Yes
20090404 00:56:02< Crab_> Dragonking: that is buggy a bit) if the fai recruitment fallback's to default ai, we may get in an endless loop
20090404 00:56:37< silene> crimson_penguin: not sure; perhaps just remove it and let the user decide; it's not like it's a fundamental hotkey
20090404 00:56:39< Dragonking> Crab_: Currently recruitment can not execute any command. Only recruit.
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20090404 00:57:08< Crab_> Dragonking: i believe. but the protection against bugs which is done by "master" will be lost, and this is not good
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20090404 00:57:19< crimson_penguin> silene: good idea... I'm not sure how to remove it though
20090404 00:57:21< Crab_> so, we need to specify to the default ai that it should only do part of the turn
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20090404 00:57:23< csaunders> umm... why don't you just remap the hot-key for quitting to ctrl+q?
20090404 00:57:43< silene> crimson_penguin: i would try data/core/hotkeys.cfg
20090404 00:57:53< Crab_> Dragonking: so, formula_ai will do some part of the turn, and fallback to default ai, but only for some part of the turn, then return control to formula_ai
20090404 00:58:14< Crab_> Dragonking: but there will be no *circular* loops
20090404 00:58:19< silene> csaunders: because all the other ones are cmd+something, so it would be quite confusing
20090404 00:58:25< Crab_> well, *potential* circular loops )
20090404 00:58:44< Crab_> Dragonking: we can split default ai into 'pieces'
20090404 00:58:51< csaunders> silene: yeah... that is the problem.  But.. just in case you still wanted to keep it
20090404 00:59:05< Crab_> Dragonking: to allow it to do only parts of the turn. then formula ai will be able to call default_ai just to do some of the pieces
20090404 00:59:19< Dragonking> Crab_: Not really a KISS solution imho.
20090404 00:59:41< Dragonking> What if we just want to fallback? Thne this all splitting is not really desired, and makes it overcompliacted.
20090404 01:00:02< Crab_> Dragonking: KISS solution, imho, is to make a third ai which will call specific 'tasks' from both formula ai and default ai
20090404 01:00:14< silene> splitting of the default ai is desired, at least by me
20090404 01:00:21< Crab_> Dragonking: so, that third AI will be *master*, and formula ai and default ai will be splitted into *components*
20090404 01:00:30< Crab_> silene: me too
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20090404 01:00:48< Dragonking> So you genrally want to plit AI into 2 parts?
20090404 01:01:00< Dragonking> How you imagine that to work?
20090404 01:01:19< Crab_> Dragonking: main entry point into any ai is play_turn
20090404 01:01:28< silene> why 2? a lot more, there is no reason for the default ai to be monolithic
20090404 01:01:42< crimson_penguin> csaunders: but it can always be assigned manually if you want it
20090404 01:01:51< Crab_> silene: many, many pieces. and make a 'constructor' to assemble ai from them
20090404 01:02:00< Crab_> Dragonking: the game really doesn't need anything else then play_turn (set parameters, set ai type, pass the info parameters)
20090404 01:02:06< silene> Crab_: yes
20090404 01:02:14< Dragonking> Ok
20090404 01:02:24< Dragonking> I thought you wanted to split it into 2 pieces
20090404 01:02:25< Dragonking> :)
20090404 01:02:47< Crab_> silene: this will also allow us to 'keep' the "stable" pieces around while working on their 'development' versions
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20090404 01:03:54< Crab_> Dragonking: basically, there are many ways to make many-ais-play-one-side possible, but if we use the "master-slaves" ideology, we need to have exactly one master...
20090404 01:04:23< Dragonking> Yes.
20090404 01:04:24< Ivanovic> time for me to head off to bed, n8
20090404 01:04:49< Crab_> Dragonking: and prohibit all other ai's from creating another ais or fallbacking to them... that will give us a basic 'no endless loop because of ai fallback' guarantee, no matter how we screw in the code )
20090404 01:04:56< csaunders> crimson_penguin: hmm... there could be a way to override cmd+q, yes?
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20090404 01:05:30< crimson_penguin> csaunders: well right now both take effect
20090404 01:05:59< csaunders> crimson_penguin: yeah, so you've said... hmm
20090404 01:06:00< silene> Crab_: no, i wouldn't go that far; it would be interesting for slaves to be masters from others ai; we just need a depth counter or something to detect loops
20090404 01:06:18< Dragonking> Crab_: So basically we would aim for fallback of formula AI that chacks if recruitment is set or not, and according to that it choses way to consruct default AI that will do rest of the move?
20090404 01:06:31< silene> Crab_: but anyway, there should be only one ai at the very top
20090404 01:07:11< Crab_> silene: as now, master is a depth counter :) limited to 2 ai's - with master==true and master==false :) so, of course, we may do this if it will be needed.
20090404 01:08:07< Crab_> silene: fully agree about '1 ai at the top' 
20090404 01:09:20< Crab_> Dragonking: not really sure what do you mean ) yes, we can (at the moment), make formula_ai =master, and fallback from it to default_ai after recruitment, if that's what you wanted to ask about)
20090404 01:09:25< Velory> gnites every1
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20090404 01:09:51< silene> Crab_: i think it is needed to make simple for experimenting; for instance, imagine that you want to write an ai that only chooses attack targets; it needs both a master ai to do everything else, and a slave ai to actually choose the attackers and perform the attack once the target has been decided
20090404 01:10:20< Dragonking> Crab_: No, I meant how fallback function will work after we split default AI into pieces
20090404 01:11:31< Crab_> silene: then either 'choose target', or a 'perform the attack' , should be a modular component (function from ai B that the ai A may choose to run, or a stand-alone function object)
20090404 01:12:49< Crab_> silene: so, master ai A will create an instance of B, and will ask B to perform some tricks, such as 'choose the attackers and perform the attack', when it is needed.
20090404 01:13:32< Crab_> Dragonking, yes, basically, yes, you are right
20090404 01:14:13< Crab_> A and B will 'share' the game info, and A will be in charge of turn flow control
20090404 01:16:24< silene> Crab_: but i think it makes it too complicated, you will have to have a really small granularity; this isn't practical; imagine you decide from the beginning that components are "choose target", "choose attacker", "choose weapon", and so on; if you want to design an ai that performs several task, it will be really painful
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20090404 01:17:03< Crab_> if there are N pieces, then there'll be master AI A, and pieces B1,B2,...,BN  (B1 may have B1.1,B1.2, B1.2 may have B1.2.1, B1.2.2, .., etc). and the master AI will call the 'turn sequence' pieces, which will call the rest of the pieces to make its work...
20090404 01:17:55< silene> Crab_: by talking about B1.2.1, you are precisely talking about a cascaded ai :-)
20090404 01:18:25< Crab_> silene: yes. but no loops in dependencies :)
20090404 01:18:37< Crab_> silene: well, we can make the granularity as small as we wish to. for example, now we see 'candidate moves',  'recruitment' and 'all other moves' parts
20090404 01:18:42< CIA-30> esr * r34445 /trunk/data/core/ (19 files in 2 dirs): Added the Water Serpent. Art approved by Jetryl.
20090404 01:19:08< Polarina> Yay for small fonts! http://simnet.is/gabrielp/krili/example/
20090404 01:19:13< Crab_> silene: so, to make this work, we need to split out 'recruitment' and 'all other moves' from default ai
20090404 01:19:43< Crab_> silene: then, we will need to split out recruitment and 'candidate moves' from formula ai
20090404 01:20:06< silene> Crab_: yes (but isn't that already the case for formulaai?)
20090404 01:20:52< Crab_> silene: there's 'fallback' mechanism to allow the ai to delegate to other ai 'till the end of the turn'
20090404 01:21:15< silene> "till the end of the turn" is bad :-)
20090404 01:22:05< Crab_> silene: yes. it is a small subset of all possible modular ai's we can create.
20090404 01:23:11< Crab_> silene: but we don't have to go small-scale, if we don't want to.
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20090404 01:24:38< Crab_> silene: we can just make those pieces we need. 'recruitment', 'candidate_move_evaluation', 'default_ai_moves' is a good start (for example, we do not need to split 'default_ai_moves' into smaller pieces if we don't want to.
20090404 01:24:47< ilor> night
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20090404 01:25:49< silene> why do you call it "default_ai_moves"? would there be a "nondefault_ai_moves" type of component?
20090404 01:26:43< Crab_> silene: I call the ai class in ai.[ch]pp 'default_ai'
20090404 01:27:19< Crab_> silene: IMO, referring to it just as 'ai' would be ambiguous 
20090404 01:27:36< silene> ok, so we were not talking about the same thing; i thought you were giving the names of the phases of a generic master ai
20090404 01:28:18< Crab_> silene, partially about the same thing, 'default_ai_moves' can be a phase in generic master ai's turn :)
20090404 01:28:41< Crab_> silene: but I think that there is no reason to hardcore the phases into 'generic master ai'
20090404 01:29:14< CIA-30> soliton * r34446 /trunk/utils/mp-server/run_server: save the PID to a file for easy access elsewhere
20090404 01:29:24< Crab_> silene: imo, 'flow control' (basically, contents of ai_interface::play_turn() ) should be pluggable as well
20090404 01:29:29< silene> i would prefer to avoid misunderstanding; the phase itself is called "moves", and a possible implementation is "default_ai::moves"
20090404 01:29:43< Crab_> silene: ok
20090404 01:30:46< silene> note that the phases are already hardcoded somehow, since formula ai can take care of recruitement only; but i agree we shouldn't hardcode them
20090404 01:31:17< Crab_> silene, so, I think that there is need for generic master ai, which will have a pluggable flow control, which, in turn, will be configured with specific implementations of specific phases.
20090404 01:32:14< Crab_> for example:  flow control implementation which consists of three phases: ai_interface::leader_control, ai_interface::candidate_moves, ai_interface::moves
20090404 01:32:17< silene> agreed; and the generic master ai could simply be a vector of ais that would be run in turn; it probably doesn't have to be more complicated
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20090404 01:33:04< Crab_> and a formula_ai::leader_control will be a specific implementation of leader_control phase
20090404 01:33:07< Dragonking> good night everyone
20090404 01:33:11< Crab_> Dragonking: night
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20090404 01:33:25< Crab_> and default_ai::moves will be a specific implementation of  ai_interface::moves
20090404 01:33:30< Crab_> something like that.
20090404 01:34:27< Crab_> yes, I agree that generic master AI would be based on a vector of ais which should be run in turn, yes. plus some more stuff with exception handling, probably.
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20090404 01:36:08< Crab_> this will also allow us to *fork* the default_ai:: components, and store one copy of them (and don't touch them a lot), and experiment with the other copy, and compare them in-game.
20090404 01:36:18< Crab_> or *fork* one component a time
20090404 01:36:30< Crab_> so we won't break anything by trying changes
20090404 01:37:12< Crab_> silene: what do you think about that?
20090404 01:37:30< silene> not only that, but i'm also sure there are some parts of the ai that actually works, so they could directly be embedded in a better ai :-)
20090404 01:38:05< CIA-30> soliton * r34447 /trunk/utils/mp-server/send_server_message: typo fix
20090404 01:38:06< silene> Crab_: yes, i think this is definitely the way to go
20090404 01:38:24< Crab_> silene: good)
20090404 01:38:45< silene> ok, it's getting really late, i'm off to bed
20090404 01:38:50< Crab_> night
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20090404 01:48:22< Zen_Clark> Where are the in-game help files located?
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20090404 01:49:10< Soliton> data/core/help.cfg
20090404 01:49:37< Zen_Clark> Soliton: Thanks.
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20090404 02:07:11< Crab_> hi Sirp. there was a small ai-related discussion between me, Dragonking, and silene, today, 00:51 - 1:38 in the logs. If you have some time, I would like to hear what you think about the idea.
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20090404 02:20:16< Zen_Clark> Is there a way for a user made campaign to add sections/topics to the help files?
20090404 02:21:51< Sapient> I assume you don't mean units
20090404 02:22:01< Zen_Clark> No, I do not.
20090404 02:22:10< Sapient> terrains?
20090404 02:22:24< Zen_Clark> Info files.
20090404 02:22:29< Zen_Clark> Just text
20090404 02:23:43< Sapient> [+help] should work
20090404 02:23:49< Sapient> but, I never tried it personally
20090404 02:24:39< Zen_Clark> It did not work for me. I tried several methods following the syntax on the wiki, but to no results. Not even an error.
20090404 02:25:18< Sapient> you put it at the top level?
20090404 02:26:24< Zen_Clark> Yeah. Nothing appeared.
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20090404 02:27:06< Sapient> well, if that doesn't work then you'll need to put in an F.R.
20090404 02:27:15< Sapient> there's no other way I'm aware of
20090404 02:27:50< corn> hi guys. Part of my proposal for improving stats.wesnoth is to collect geographic data on users. Is there anyway to do so without raising privacy concerns?
20090404 02:28:28< corn> more specifically, check the IP of incoming log data and increment a value in an array that lists all the countries of the world. it wouldn't be granular to the city/region level
20090404 02:28:57< Sapient> I don't see a problem with that
20090404 02:29:14< Sapient> we track geographic information for forum users
20090404 02:29:25< corn> the argument against it was presented here: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=23537&view=previous
20090404 02:30:08< Sapient> that seems to be an argument against uploading any statistics at all
20090404 02:30:38< Sapient> I don't like my computer subtly connecting to the internet and transmitting information either
20090404 02:30:57< corn> so as long as the user opts for the statistics to be reported, it should be OK to collect data that is _not_ personally identifiable?
20090404 02:31:15< Sapient> I would agree with that statement
20090404 02:31:16< corn> collect and present, since we're already getting the IP but just not doing anything with it ;)
20090404 02:31:38< corn> ok
20090404 02:31:46< csaunders> well... you sort of are, but you aren't holding onto it for long
20090404 02:31:55< Sapient> just one developer's opinion
20090404 02:32:28< cjhopman> I think as long as you don't pair the ip or geographic area with other statistics it should be fine
20090404 02:32:51< corn> yeah. the goal is _not_ to make per-user statistics tracking
20090404 02:32:59< Sapient> like Chinese players are better than Brazilians or something? :p
20090404 02:33:47< cjhopman> I mean, it could actually be interesting... maybe stats on like a country level would be good
20090404 02:33:50< Crab_> corn: and also take note of the addon server - you can collect some stats from there, since people actually *connect* to it :)
20090404 02:34:08< Sapient> most games it seems like Korea #1, USA #2
20090404 02:34:17< corn> well it seems like most of the data for that is already being used
20090404 02:34:21< Sapient> would be interesting to see what it's like for Wesnoth
20090404 02:34:22< corn> since you can sort maps by popularity
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20090404 02:35:48< [Relic]> Hello :)
20090404 02:36:06< Sapient> I guess it could become a privacy issue if you only have one or two players in Macedonia for example
20090404 02:36:19< Sapient> then everyone would know they were looking at Mythological's stats
20090404 02:36:33< csaunders> Sapient: You could only start collecting data once it becomes statistically significant
20090404 02:36:43< csaunders> say... more than 1000 users / country
20090404 02:42:44< corn> ok guys. gonna take a nap. be back in 4 hours
20090404 02:43:40< Sapient> 22:44 <esr> Sapient! Oh Sapient! From the vasty deep I summon thee! From the void between worlds I call thee up!
20090404 02:43:47< Sapient> lol... sorry for the delay
20090404 02:44:03< Sapient> got lost deep in the voids of the netherworld
20090404 02:44:24< Sapient> esr: still need something?
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20090404 04:45:12< CIA-30> soliton * r34448 /branches/1.6/src/server/ (game.hpp server.cpp): save replay before advancing
20090404 04:45:38< CIA-30> soliton * r34449 /trunk/src/server/ (game.hpp server.cpp): save replay before advancing
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20090404 04:52:56< dfranke> anyone else having any trouble with the SoC website making Firefox freeze up along with X?
20090404 04:53:22< csaunders> dfranke: yeah... I find that FF lags a bit
20090404 04:55:03< dfranke> I'm compiling Shiretoko and seeing if it works better there.
20090404 04:57:03 * dfranke hugs his octocore
20090404 05:03:56-!- Turuk_ [n=Turuk@wesnoth/forumsith/turuk] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090404 05:05:19< AI0867_> octocore? PS3 or are they selling those now?
20090404 05:05:37< dfranke> I built it from parts, two years ago.
20090404 05:06:04< AI0867_> I thought they hadn't moved past quad yet
20090404 05:06:06< dfranke> It's two quad-core CPUs.
20090404 05:06:11< AI0867_> ah
20090404 05:08:19< dfranke> nice, seems to work now.
20090404 05:08:51< dfranke> and yes, that was a ten-minute compile :-)
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20090404 05:21:25 * csaunders just got back and is jealous of dfranke's octocores
20090404 05:22:57< [Relic]> :)
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20090404 05:33:59< Sapient> cya later, have fun.
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20090404 05:47:54< YogiHH> hello everyone
20090404 05:48:16< cjhopman> mornin YogiHH
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20090404 06:09:12-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.6.1 planned for Sunday | Summer of Code info: http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/SummerOfCodeIdeas | 52 bugs, 232 feature requests, 9 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20090404 06:19:09-!- Turuk_ [n=Turuk@wesnoth/forumsith/turuk] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090404 06:23:02< esr> YogiHH: I just assigned you a longgstanding bug related to side persistence that looks likre a savegame-related problem.
20090404 06:23:32 * YogiHH checks
20090404 06:24:51< YogiHH> esr: 13016?
20090404 06:25:55< esr> Yes.
20090404 06:26:49< YogiHH> esr: I hope to fix that one for 1.8. There will definitely be no fixing for 1.6, as this would turn out way too intrusive.
20090404 06:27:17< YogiHH> esr: basically, the savegame reorganization will deal with that
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20090404 06:31:57< esr> YogiHH: How much more time are you estimating for that reorg?  It will affect my planning for whether I try to get savegame threading done before 1.8.
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20090404 06:33:58< YogiHH> esr: the interface for calling save_game is almost done (not in svn yet). It will need some more polishing and bugfixing, but it basically is known to work by now.
20090404 06:34:23< YogiHH> esr: that might take another week or two, maybe
20090404 06:35:06< YogiHH> esr: load_game is more tricky, as multiplayer provides the data differently than single player. Hard to say at this time how long it will take
20090404 06:35:21< YogiHH> esr: shouldn't be much more than a month, though
20090404 06:36:10< YogiHH> esr: what takes considerably more time is the savegame content, which i expect to take the whole GSoC period (either by me or a GSoC student)
20090404 06:36:12< esr> That will leave me five months, which should be enough time.
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20090404 06:37:31< esr> I'm not very worried about that,  As long as I can assign a unique ID at save time, get it into the save file, and then retrieve it at game load time, I'll have what I need.
20090404 06:39:05< esr> The rest of the game-threading stuff will be independent of the save/load code.
20090404 06:42:10< Soliton> YogiHH: in the replay_controller constructor any way to figure out if we're a campaign or multiplayer replay?
20090404 06:43:19< Soliton> YogiHH: i would like to initialize show_team_ accordingly to have campaign replays show side and and mp replays show each side by default.
20090404 06:43:23< esr> Soliton: You're heavily into MP, yes?  Have you seen my game-save-threading proposal?  I'm wondering now if it has implications for MP.
20090404 06:43:33< Soliton> having to switch all the time for mp replays is getting on my nerves.
20090404 06:44:16< Soliton> esr: anything from what you proposed a year or so ago?
20090404 06:44:24< Soliton> +new
20090404 06:45:06< esr> Not changed since then - still want to thread saves by ID and leat the user btowse game save *sequences* rather than game saves.
20090404 06:46:10< Soliton> i don't think there is anything special about mp saves then.
20090404 06:47:09< YogiHH> Soliton: i suggest gamestate_.campaign_type: "multiplayer" vs all others
20090404 06:49:58 * Soliton tries.
20090404 06:50:08< YogiHH> Soliton: note, thought, that it can't tell about mp campaigns yet, unless you consider next_scenario, which is withing the snapshot and replay_start (starting_pos) config information. The new savegame format will deal better with that. See also http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/Summer_of_Code:SavegameWMLMapping if you haven't done already.
20090404 06:50:31< YogiHH> s/thought/though
20090404 06:50:50< Soliton> what typ are mp campaigns? multiplayer?
20090404 06:50:54< Soliton> type*
20090404 06:51:00< YogiHH> yes, i think so
20090404 06:51:07< YogiHH> haven't tried yet
20090404 06:51:07< Soliton> well, that's fine then.
20090404 06:52:59< Soliton> yay, thanks.
20090404 06:53:06< YogiHH> :-)
20090404 06:54:53< Soliton> there is a secret replay archive of all games played on the server now, btw. :-)
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20090404 06:57:47< DDR> How secret?
20090404 06:59:09< Soliton> well, since i'm now removing games with observers disallowed not so secret i guess..
20090404 06:59:51< Soliton> ideally there should be an ingame checkbox to decide whether you want to publish the replay or not though, i think.
20090404 07:00:15< DDR> That would be nice, but not crucial.
20090404 07:00:24< Soliton> of course it's a public server and anyone can watch whatever game allows observers...
20090404 07:01:09< DDR> Where are the games stored?
20090404 07:02:02< Soliton> wesnoth.org/replays
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20090404 07:02:19< DDR> How long will they be retained?
20090404 07:02:35< Soliton> until we run out of space? no idea.
20090404 07:03:16< DDR> Heh, and hm. Just wondering.
20090404 07:03:25< Soliton> let me change the structure a bit and i'll take off the password.
20090404 07:03:50< DDR> Still, ... you anticipate my sentence.
20090404 07:05:36< DDR> Sounds nice.
20090404 07:09:46-!- Turuk [n=Turuk@wesnoth/forumsith/turuk] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090404 07:12:01< cjhopman> Soliton: do the replays have team chat in them?
20090404 07:12:23< Soliton> cjhopman: no.
20090404 07:12:59< Soliton> they contain only things the server saves in the history which is what any joining client gets as well.
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20090404 07:41:14< Soliton> DDR: try now.
20090404 07:42:08< DDR> It works!
20090404 07:43:51< DDR> This will be nice - I never have to save again.
20090404 07:44:26< DDR> The game is uploaded when the game is over?
20090404 07:44:35< DDR> Or quit in the middle?
20090404 07:46:02< Soliton> when the game ends.
20090404 07:46:25< Soliton> i would not bet on the replays always working.
20090404 07:47:03< Soliton> i noticed an orocia that was corrupt for example.
20090404 07:47:36< Soliton> so i guess scenarios with heavy WML use are less likely to work.
20090404 07:48:00< dfranke> corn: I just finished going over your proposal... your kill graph idea sounds *ridiculously* useful for MP balancing.
20090404 07:48:10< dfranke> corn: was that your own idea, or did someone suggest that to you?
20090404 07:50:56< DDR> Hm, I think I'll save as well.
20090404 07:52:40< DDR> Is the save collection organised (other than by version)?
20090404 07:54:47< Soliton> like what?
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20090404 08:18:30< CIA-30> esr * r34450 /trunk/data/campaigns/Heir_To_The_Throne/scenarios/11_The_Ford_of_Abez.cfg: 
20090404 08:18:30< CIA-30> Now that we have Water Serpents for fresh-water fun, put one here
20090404 08:18:30< CIA-30> instead of a Sea Serpent.
20090404 08:18:49-!- Turuk [n=Turuk@wesnoth/forumsith/turuk] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090404 08:21:13< CIA-30> esr * r34451 /trunk/data/campaigns/Heir_To_The_Throne/scenarios/19c_Cliffs_of_Thoria.cfg: It's fresh water, so Sea Serpent -> Water Serpent.
20090404 08:21:57-!- Dragonking [n=dk@wesnoth/developer/dragonking] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090404 08:28:33< zookeeper> there's a serpent in a lake in TSG's choice in the fog
20090404 08:35:27< esr> zookeeper: Yeah, I've been thinking about TSG.  It's in the Black River, which actually may be big enough for sea serpents.
20090404 08:36:00< esr> Er,,,wait...in a *lake*?  Let me check.
20090404 08:40:05< esr> Yeah, you're right.  Interesting - I never tripped over that one.
20090404 08:40:31< esr> The Water Serpent graphics are really nifty.
20090404 08:41:37< CIA-30> esr * r34452 /trunk/data/campaigns/ (5 files in 4 dirs): Nore Sea Serpent to Water Serpent conversions.
20090404 08:59:26< esr> zookeeper: Who owns Caves of the Basilisk?  I'm wondering if the sea serpent in that should chane, too.
20090404 08:59:56< benetnash> hi! debug_print(attacks) in formula AI causes first unit move and attack. Is it normal?
20090404 09:22:50-!- boucman [n=rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090404 09:23:11< boucman> morning all
20090404 09:23:32< cjhopman> mornin
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20090404 09:26:20< silene> hi
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20090404 10:42:29< dfranke> eek, did the server just go down?
20090404 10:42:36< dfranke> nm, it's back.
20090404 10:54:13< ilor> hm, in my windows build, libpng.dll gets loaded and unloaded around 500 times, and that's when I'm only starting the editor. ANyone know what could be causing it?
20090404 10:54:32-!- Crab_ [n=crab_@c.218.175.a530.sta.adsl.cyfra.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090404 10:54:37< Crab_> hi
20090404 10:57:48< loonycyborg> ilor: No idea. Though you can use SDL_image dll linked against libpng statically.
20090404 10:58:23< ilor> what do we use for the official win binary?
20090404 10:59:11< Crab_> Dragonking: around ?
20090404 11:00:11< loonycyborg> ilor: SDL_image from win binary is linked against libpng statically if it is what you mean :P
20090404 11:00:49< ilor> loonycyborg: yeah that's what I meant ;) 500 dll loads/unloads doesn't look to nice performance-wise ;)
20090404 11:12:15-!- mordante [n=mordante@roadie.xs4all.nl] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090404 11:12:23< boucman> morning mordante
20090404 11:12:31< mordante> hi
20090404 11:12:35< mordante> hi boucman 
20090404 11:12:42< Crab_> hi mordante
20090404 11:12:57< mordante> hi Crab_ 
20090404 11:13:09< boucman> mordante: could you review patch 1152 for me ?
20090404 11:13:22< boucman> it seems trivial but since it's GUI related, I'd like your expertise
20090404 11:13:47< mordante> yes boucman 
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20090404 11:27:10< ilor> Soliton: how can I test the adminmsg thing?
20090404 11:33:39< CIA-30> ivanovic * r34453 /trunk/po/wesnoth/id.po: updated Indonesian translation
20090404 11:33:41< CIA-30> ivanovic * r34454 /branches/1.6/po/wesnoth/id.po: updated Indonesian translation
20090404 11:35:49< Ivanovic> moin
20090404 11:36:53< mordante> hi Ivanovic 
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20090404 11:45:11 * Ivanovic tries to summon sapient
20090404 11:45:21< CIA-30> ilor * r34455 /trunk/src/game_display.cpp: code cleanup in game_display::parse_team_overlays() - fix a msvc warning and make the code clearer
20090404 11:45:48< Ivanovic> damn it, where is the old goat that was required to make him appear?!?
20090404 11:46:05< Ivanovic> okay, so only a virgin will have to do today, i hope it works
20090404 11:48:22 * Reisiger is tempted to strangle Win7 x64...
20090404 11:49:04 * mordante gives Reisiger a rope
20090404 11:49:23 * Reisiger strangles Win7 x64's 'CMD'
20090404 11:49:55< Reisiger> Darn thing just has to contain a change that causes MSys to choke on install
20090404 11:50:26< mordante> didn't win7 get monad?
20090404 11:51:20< Reisiger> o_O monad?
20090404 11:52:10< mordante> the new shell which should be better as cmd
20090404 11:52:20< mordante> (not that being better as cmd is hard...)
20090404 11:53:46< Reisiger> No idea... it doesn't find any executable by that name... and it's the postinstall routine from MSys that calls CMD.
20090404 11:54:16 * Ivanovic handles Reisiger an install disc for arch linux
20090404 11:54:31< Ivanovic> no need to bother with windows when there are better options available...
20090404 11:54:32< Ivanovic> ^^
20090404 11:55:05< Reisiger> Not realy when one intends to get used to MSVC 2008 o_O
20090404 11:56:06< Reisiger> The only think causing MSVC to stop compiling, is that I can't find the libintl.lib anywhere... got the .dll but not the .lib
20090404 11:56:42< loonycyborg> mingw can link against dlls. Why msvc can't?
20090404 11:57:11< Ivanovic> ahh, some people seem to love pain, no idea why...
20090404 11:57:33< Reisiger> Why shouldn't it? O_o
20090404 11:57:33< Reisiger> Yeah... I know... I'm kinky that way o_O
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20090404 12:00:19 * Reisiger hangs MSVC
20090404 12:01:00< Reisiger> That thing's too blind to find the libintl.lib... in the place I added in the configuration... sheesh
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20090404 12:10:19< benetnash> hi! is there any way to check in FormulaAI if unit can attack? even when movement_left == 0 unit still can attack but there is no way to find it. variable attacks is unusable due to bug.
20090404 12:11:19< Crab_> benetnash: wait a sec, I'll see.. ( btw, we'll most likely fix 'attacks' soon )
20090404 12:12:26< benetnash> Crab_: ok, thank you very much
20090404 12:16:05< mordante> IMO the solution would also be to fix the attacks and not adding hacks
20090404 12:16:18< mordante> s/would/should/
20090404 12:18:25 * Reisiger gets a life... erm... coffee while MSVC tries again to compile.
20090404 12:20:13< Crab_> mordante: well, checking 'can the unit at (x,y) still attack this turn or not?' is not a hack, it is a legit question )
20090404 12:21:28< mordante> yes but that should be provided by the attacks variable, so the solution would be to fix the bug and not hack something around it
20090404 12:22:32< Crab_> mordante: well, attacks variable evaluates *all* possible attacks for a game map (1000+ for a first turn of a test scenario). sound a bit of overkill if all that the ai wanted to do is to check one unit )
20090404 12:23:49< mordante> I thought you talked about the attacks variable of the unit
20090404 12:23:49< Crab_> mordante: basically, if the ai writer uses CRM (candidate moves), he doesn't need to manage this so explicitly if he moves units only one-by-one. but this is not the only use case.
20090404 12:24:00< Crab_> mordante, no, 'attacks' global variable
20090404 12:24:49< mordante> ah ok then I was wrong, thought the unit variable was meant from the first question
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20090404 12:29:36< Crab_> benetnash: there is no way to find the number of remaining unit attacks at the moment. this is an oversight and will be fixed shortly (this will be backported to 1.6, so it'll be in 1.6.1, too).
20090404 12:30:04< Crab_> benetnash: this information is present inside the unit, it is just "not exposed" to formula ai
20090404 12:31:10< boucman> Crab_: no, no packport
20090404 12:31:16< Crab_> boucman: why ?
20090404 12:31:27< boucman> if you do so, you break backward compatibility for FAI
20090404 12:31:46< boucman> in other word an UMC that uses FAI might work for 1.6.1 and not 1.6.0
20090404 12:31:55< boucman> we try to be strict with our stable branches
20090404 12:32:12< boucman> so it will have to stay a dev feature...
20090404 12:32:33< mordante> it normally only gets broken by severe problems eg security issues or massive OOS problems in MP
20090404 12:33:00< mordante> and then we still try to keep compatibility 
20090404 12:33:36< Crab_> boucman: ok. 
20090404 12:33:48< Crab_> benetnash: so sorry, 1.7 only )
20090404 12:35:27 * boucman considers that FAI is not very usable in 1.6, but that fixing it is more than can be done on a stable branch unfortunately...
20090404 12:36:00< boucman> it might still be usefull to script some stuff in UMC, but usage as a way to write AI is probably very hard/impossible
20090404 12:36:27< boucman> except for border cases like the ones Velory did (which I plan to backport once they are tested and improved some more)
20090404 12:38:38< boucman> Crab_: you have a formating error in your SOC proposal in the big table of files 
20090404 12:39:35< Crab_> boucman: thanks, fixed.
20090404 12:39:47< Crab_> one space queitly sneaked by...
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20090404 12:50:38< benetnash> Crab_: and when 1.7 would be released?
20090404 12:50:54< boucman> benetnash: don't hold your breath :(
20090404 12:51:07< boucman> Crab_: is it possible to test the ai_arena at this point ?
20090404 12:51:13< Crab_> boucman: yes. 
20090404 12:51:34< Crab_> boucman: http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/AI_Arena
20090404 12:51:35< benetnash> where in svn is most recent (bugfixed) version of formula AI? in trunk/
20090404 12:51:46< boucman> k, thx
20090404 12:51:52< boucman> yes, in trunk
20090404 12:52:04< Crab_> benetnash, yes. but you have to compile it yourself (not so hard on *nix )
20090404 12:52:42< mordante> cjhopman, regarding r34388 std::unordered_map doesn't exist yet 
20090404 12:53:15< Crab_> benetnash, I think that it is the best for you to track /trunk, but do so intelligently (only update when we tell you that we've fixed something important to you).
20090404 12:53:21< benetnash> I'm lazy and i'm using slightly changed archlinux build scripts
20090404 12:53:29< Polarina> mordante: It does.
20090404 12:53:33< mordante> cjhopman, if you want to move to boost 1.35 send a mail to the dev-ml I'm against 1.36 since it's not in Debian stable
20090404 12:53:37< mordante> Polarina, where?
20090404 12:53:50< benetnash> now I'm checking out repo, I hope it will be stable
20090404 12:53:54< Polarina> mordante: Pass -std=c++0x to g++ and #include <unordered_map>
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20090404 12:54:15< boucman> is it possible to "end turn" through WML ?
20090404 12:54:18< mordante> Polarina, c++0x is not a standard yet
20090404 12:54:26< Polarina> mordante: And?
20090404 12:54:37< Crab_> boucman, probably, yes. if it is not possible, i intend to add it.
20090404 12:54:54< boucman> it might be usefull for your AI_arena
20090404 12:55:18< boucman> right click menu might also be more practicall than moving the unit to "test" an selecting through tedious menus
20090404 12:55:29< mordante> Polarina, as long as c++0x hasn't been voted as standard it's not 100% sure that anything in it will be in the next c++ standard
20090404 12:55:45< Crab_> boucman: yes, there's room for improvement. so, I'll gladly accept hints
20090404 12:55:57< Polarina> mordante: It will be.
20090404 12:56:01< boucman> you just got some :)
20090404 12:56:05< Crab_> boucman: yes )
20090404 12:56:40< mordante> Polarina, probably yes, but that's not the point. at the moment std::unordered_map doesn't exist
20090404 12:56:51< Polarina> mordante: :(
20090404 12:57:57< mordante> allowing cxx+0x features in Wesnoth will break a lot of compilation issues so I prefer to wait until c++0x has been voted for and is supported by most compilers in use
20090404 12:58:38< mordante> and especially for unordered_map I prefer to use boost::tr1::unordered_map which will work on older compilers as well
20090404 12:59:34< loonycyborg> Boost's unordered map was added in 1.36..
20090404 12:59:57< boucman> Crab_: you probably want to develop the FAI debugger early :)
20090404 13:00:06< loonycyborg> Though perhaps it can be bcp'd..
20090404 13:00:33< Crab_> boucman: it will be hard to do before the refactoring - i'll insert "hooks" which it will be able to use
20090404 13:00:37< mordante> I thought I read it was in 1.35 but that's boost::unordered_map, which we can use instead 
20090404 13:00:57< boucman> Crab_: ok, just telling you what my gut feeling was
20090404 13:01:01< Crab_> boucman: I agree that after step1 is done, i can start step2 with debugger
20090404 13:01:05< Crab_> boucman: for me, gdb is fine :)
20090404 13:01:10< boucman> hehe
20090404 13:01:50< Polarina> mordante: Breaking compilation issues is a good thing.
20090404 13:02:24< mordante> ?
20090404 13:02:35< CIA-30> crab * r34456 /trunk/ (changelog src/callable_objects.cpp): 
20090404 13:02:35< CIA-30> Added .attacks_left attribute to units callable in .fai
20090404 13:02:35< CIA-30> for example, my_leader.attacks_left will return 1 before
20090404 13:02:35< CIA-30> leader attacks and 0 if leader has already attacked this turn.
20090404 13:02:37< Crab_> benetnash: ^^^^
20090404 13:03:03< Polarina> mordante: If you have a compilation issue, and you break it, it's no longer an issue. :)
20090404 13:03:42< Crab_> (benetnash: just in case - that means that the recent trunk (starting with that 'revision number') contains said fix, so if you get in from svn and compile, you'll be able to use it)
20090404 13:03:43< mordante> ah yes I typoed
20090404 13:04:00< loonycyborg> Hm.. An implementation of TR1 was added in 1.34
20090404 13:04:56< Reisiger> Hum... http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/CompilingWesnoth is missing FreeType2.lib as a prerequesite.
20090404 13:05:00< loonycyborg> TR1 includes unordered_*. Then why did they add unordered in 1.36? :/
20090404 13:10:55< Crab_> boucman: hehe, what "exactly" the unit .fai object contains, is not documented anywhere in the wiki ) so, from the pedantic point of view, all users of those are using development features - undocumented and unsupported stuff ))
20090404 13:11:18< mordante> no idea why
20090404 13:11:47< boucman> Crab_: it is documented, the documentation specifiest that you should use debug_print to see the content :P
20090404 13:12:05< boucman> and my complaint was about backward compatibility, not undocumented features :)
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20090404 13:15:30< Crab_> boucman: np with that ) I was just going to add a 'dev_feature'd attacks_left and hasn't found where, so I'll start a new section ) 
20090404 13:15:50< boucman> just don't document it...
20090404 13:15:58< boucman> I consider self documenting code to be great
20090404 13:16:07< boucman> people looking at it in 1.6 won't see it
20090404 13:16:16< boucman> people looking at it in 1.7 will
20090404 13:16:19< boucman> and all is good :)
20090404 13:17:27< Crab_> boucman: ok, so be it
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20090404 13:19:06< Crab_> and self-documented code is not that good, because all its non-segfaulting bugs are features )
20090404 13:20:02< Reisiger> Hum... funny o_X libboost_zlib-vc90-mt-1_38.lib missing
20090404 13:21:49 * Reisiger thinks he'll sacrifice an Ubuntu LiveCD once he gets MSVC to compile Wesnoth...
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20090404 13:28:59< ilor> Reisiger: you did remember to build boost iostreams with the required -sZLIB_SOURCE=/path/to/zlib/src ?
20090404 13:29:28< Reisiger> I did indeed... o_O
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20090404 13:34:33< Reisiger> I'm looking up what command will get bjam to add the zlib library into the build process
20090404 13:38:29< loonycyborg> Reisiger: Direct your boost compilation questions to volodya on #boost :P
20090404 13:39:27< ilor> Reisiger: --with-iostreams and -sZLIB_SOURCE=
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20090404 13:39:41< ilor> Reisiger: you need the zlib source tarball somewhere with no spaces in path
20090404 13:46:22< Reisiger> I'll bug around in the boost channel :D
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20090404 14:01:48< mordante> corn, when you finished your prototype, can you ping me?
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20090404 14:45:01< corn> dfranke: I saw the idea in another game I play.
20090404 14:45:09< corn> mordante: I will have it done today or tomorrow, I will ping you
20090404 14:45:44< mordante> thanks
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20090404 14:58:20< benetnash> why input for entering formula ai from command line (f shortcut) is so limited? I'd like to test moce complitated formula and I cannot
20090404 14:58:20< euschn> good afternoon
20090404 14:59:11< boucman> benetnash: crab is working on it, but basicaly, that's what you got...
20090404 14:59:27< boucman> to do complicated stuff, use the run_file command and a text file that you edit/save
20090404 15:02:47< Reisiger> o_O Ooookay... dxguid.lib is needed for wesnothd... the one from the M$ DX SDK?
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20090404 15:06:50< Crab_> benetnash, what features you would like to see in 'entering formula ai from command line' ?  if you are just testing a simple formula, your best way (in trunk, that is), is to make a file, use run_file('path/to/file') command to run it from console, and then use "!" (repeat last command") after each edit of the file, to run the formula anew.
20090404 15:07:28< Crab_> ( "!" from the formula console )
20090404 15:08:28< Crab_> benetnash, or, by "command-line", you mean "shell command line when launching wesnoth" ?
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20090404 15:11:28< Ivanovic> Reisiger: now you might know why we dropped visual studio as "build platform" some time ago...
20090404 15:11:43< Reisiger> o_O
20090404 15:11:45< Ivanovic> that is: some are still/again using it, but it is not a clean and painless thing to get going
20090404 15:11:49< Reisiger> Now you tell me :P
20090404 15:12:16< Ivanovic> hey, i told you *many* hours ago that there are easier ways to get things going, the easiest using linux
20090404 15:12:27< Ivanovic> more complicated probably via some mingw stuff
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20090404 15:12:55< Reisiger> Heh :)
20090404 15:12:56< Reisiger> I consider it a learning experience nontheless :)
20090404 15:13:10< Ivanovic> you mean learning new swears?
20090404 15:13:11< boucman> you'll learn a lot
20090404 15:13:12< Ivanovic> ^^
20090404 15:13:17< Reisiger> Mhmm...
20090404 15:13:18< boucman> not sure you'll succeed :P
20090404 15:14:01< Reisiger> Wesnoth.exe compiles... starts complainging about missing lib's tho... guess I'd need to package everything to get it running first
20090404 15:14:57< happygrue> this is the kind of feedback it is always nice to see:  http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=24828&view=unread#unread
20090404 15:15:40< Ivanovic> happygrue: jupp
20090404 15:15:43< benetnash> Crab_: thx, I forgot about run_file() command
20090404 15:16:58< Polarina> happygrue: :D
20090404 15:23:59< CIA-30> loonycyborg * r34457 /trunk/packaging/windows/Wesnoth.nsi.in: Add version number to the name of start menu folder.
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20090404 15:46:58< molgrum> has anyone built wesnoth on cygwin?
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20090404 15:48:01< ilor> molgrum: I didn't try, mingw forks fine
20090404 15:54:38-!- Velory [n=GProcess@85.104.150.213] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090404 15:54:50< Velory> hi everyone
20090404 15:55:43-!- Sirp [n=me@wesnoth/developer/dave] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090404 15:56:24< Ivanovic> hi Sirp
20090404 15:57:04< CIA-30> esr * r34458 /trunk/data/tools/ (wesnoth/wmliterator.py wmlxgettext): Add to new wmlgettext the ability to embed translation notes
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20090404 16:03:30< mordante> hi Velory 
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20090404 16:15:50 * Polarina is having problems.
20090404 16:16:01 * Ivanovic hides
20090404 16:16:12< Reisiger> Q. for those compiling in Windows: What folder structure do you use for the libraries, includes, etc.
20090404 16:16:56< Polarina> Ivanovic: Nothing serious. Just having difficult times finding words for the difficulty levels...
20090404 16:17:05< Ivanovic> ahhh, okay
20090404 16:17:21< Polarina> There's Challenging, Difficult and Hard to basically mean the same thing.
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20090404 16:19:40< Turuk> It depends on the campaign author\
20090404 16:19:57< Polarina> Hmm...
20090404 16:20:01< Ivanovic> Polarina: look at it ingame
20090404 16:20:12< Polarina> Ivanovic: That's exactly what I am doing.
20090404 16:20:13< Ivanovic> Polarina: one is the "category" of the campaign, one is the difficulty level
20090404 16:20:26< Ivanovic> as in "what is selected when starting the campaign"
20090404 16:21:09< Polarina> I'm talking about the one in brackets, like (Easy) or (Beginner).
20090404 16:21:48 * Reisiger sacrifices half a Ubuntu LiveCD
20090404 16:22:04< Sirp> Crab_: I was looking over your refined SoC proposal. I like it very much. The one thing I think I would like added is some clear and quantifiable goals.
20090404 16:22:06< boucman> Reisiger: that's not much
20090404 16:22:13< Ivanovic> Polarina: uhm, which campaign has "hard"?
20090404 16:22:25< boucman> the good side of free software is that you only have to sacrifice the cost of the CD :P
20090404 16:22:54< Ivanovic> in the german wiki we only have (Beginner), (Easy), (Normal), (Challenging), (Difficult) and (Nightmare) listed
20090404 16:22:54< Reisiger> I know... can't get the server to compile. I'd need to use MSys to compile a missing lib... and Win7 x64 just happens to not run MSys...
20090404 16:23:00< Polarina> Ivanovic: Legend of Wesmere
20090404 16:23:24< ilor> Reisiger: can't you use cygwin to build that lib?
20090404 16:23:48< Reisiger> I've been trying to compile with MSVC ;)
20090404 16:23:51< Ivanovic> Polarina: since in this campaign there is no "challenging" take the one from this string
20090404 16:23:59< Ivanovic> yeah, it does basically mean the same
20090404 16:24:03< ilor> Reisiger: which lib is it anyway?
20090404 16:24:08< Ivanovic> (that is what we have done in german)
20090404 16:24:14< Reisiger> mikmod.lib
20090404 16:24:22< Polarina> Ivanovic: Ok.
20090404 16:24:28< Reisiger> Can't find a precompiled version
20090404 16:24:40< Polarina> I got a word for Hard, that's easy to find, but the other two are difficult...
20090404 16:25:57< Crab_> Sirp: ok, good to know that ) I'll add a summary table which will list all the subprojects with their time deadlines, brief descriptions, and a few words about "how to verify that the goal is reached"
20090404 16:29:24< Sirp> Crab_: basically as you might imagine, AI projects are hard to judge. We really want some "base goals" and "reach goals". base goals being things that are easily quantifiable and which you agree you should absolutely be failed for GSoC if you don't make them. Reach goals should be things you'd really like to get done.
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20090404 16:30:54< Crab_> Sirp: so, I should separate them into priorities such as *absolutely must be done*, *should be done* *good to be done if possible*, *optional but interesting*  ?
20090404 16:31:27< ilor> Reisiger: wtf is mikmod.lib?
20090404 16:31:29< Ivanovic> Crab_: sounds reasonable
20090404 16:31:44< Crab_> Ivanovic: ok. will do it today.
20090404 16:31:49< Sirp> Crab_: you can do that, though I'm fine with just "base goals" and "reach goals" (i.e. two tiers)
20090404 16:31:50< Ivanovic> perfect
20090404 16:32:27< Reisiger> http://mikmod.raphnet.net/ some lib MSVC reports as missing when building wesnothd
20090404 16:33:17< Sirp> Crab_: basically we want to "keep it real" in SoC. And that means that we will fail participants who don't do well enough. For the AI that's very hard to judge and very hard for the participant to see that they deserved to be failed if they didn't do well enough. So we'd like to hear the things that you are absolutely confident you can get done and will absolutely agree you should be failed if you don't get them done.
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20090404 16:33:45< loonycyborg> Reisiger: How did wesnothd end up depending on it?
20090404 16:34:48< Reisiger> Trouble is that since I can't use MSys, I need to find precompiled libraries, and some target libraries in the project-files for MSVC (i.e. zlib.lib) don't fit the name if I find them or if I can compile them with MSVC (i.e. zlib1.lib)
20090404 16:34:59< ilor> Reisiger: just remove it off the list of libs
20090404 16:35:02< Crab_> Sirp: basically I'm confident in this edition of my proposal, but I see that it would really be better if I added more clearly "what goals are we trying to reach, and how to verify that these goals have been reached"
20090404 16:35:09< ilor> Reisiger: someone brightly put a lot of unnecesary libs there
20090404 16:35:49< Reisiger> native_midi.lib o_O
20090404 16:35:54< ilor> Reisiger: I think trunk already has most of the pointless libs removed from wesnothd
20090404 16:36:12< ilor> (from the wesnothd project file)
20090404 16:36:16< Reisiger> I got the trunk version...
20090404 16:36:38< Reisiger> had to add in a (//&%/&-load if include and lib paths tho
20090404 16:36:46< ilor> aw damn I only did the release build
20090404 16:38:00< ilor> Reisiger: copy the input libs from the release version to the debig one
20090404 16:38:37< ilor> Reisiger: also can't you just stuff the libs and headers into like two directories and add them as global include and library dirs?
20090404 16:38:52< CIA-30> loonycyborg * r34459 /trunk/packaging/windows/Wesnoth.nsi.in: Added start menu shortcuts for changelogs and license.
20090404 16:39:16< Reisiger> could do that... but the number of libs to add is staggering...
20090404 16:39:49< ilor> I'm trying to tell you that wesnothd doesn't need half of them
20090404 16:40:17< ilor> and I removed them, but forgot to do it in all configs and it stayed in the debug config
20090404 16:40:28< Reisiger> I'm talking about the ones from the prerequesites
20090404 16:41:20< Reisiger> Alright... checking out branches/1.6 :)
20090404 16:42:41 * Reisiger pets the turtle
20090404 16:44:22 * Ivanovic retries to summon Sapient
20090404 16:44:30< CIA-30> ilor * r34460 /trunk/projectfiles/VC9/wesnothd.vcproj: wesnothd projectfile update
20090404 16:44:56< Reisiger> Thanks :)
20090404 16:45:54< ilor> Reisiger: the thing links for me. I'm not sure if it works.
20090404 16:46:30< loonycyborg> ilor: Just run it and tell client to connect to 127.0.0.1 :P
20090404 16:46:51-!- edb [n=edb@84.12.95-79.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090404 16:47:17< Reisiger> You got all the libs and includes in each it's respective directory inside the trunk? (i.e. .../trunk/lib .../trunk/include)
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20090404 16:52:28< Sirp> ilor: one thing I'd like to see is a way for the server to produce random numbers to decide battle outcomes in Wesnoth. Would you be interested in doing that as part of your SoC project?
20090404 16:53:06< ilor> Sirp: that's an interesting angle and I think yes
20090404 16:53:54< Sirp> ilor: okay.....feel free to add it to your proposal. I don't think it should be all that "hard" but it would take some work and I think would add a lot of value in that one obvious avenue for cheating in mp would be eliminated.
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20090404 16:55:35< ilor> Sirp: it'll require working in a different area but yeah it should be useful
20090404 16:56:05< Crab_> ilor: note that it is hard to do this 'server-generated-randomness' right, to eliminate even 'prediction' type of cheating as well, without introducing higher latency. Some crypto stuff may be required.
20090404 16:56:33< ilor> Crab_: prediction is dead-easey now
20090404 16:56:43< Crab_> ilor: good to know )
20090404 16:57:10< Soliton> ilor: well, anyone can send an adminmsg.
20090404 16:57:14< ilor> Crab_ and if we include a mt19whatever as the server rng, it should be fairly safe
20090404 16:58:50< Crab_> ilor: so, you think about something like "make the client request a 'big enough' bunch of random data from the server before each combat, but after the decision to fight is already taken and known to both clients" ? or something other ?
20090404 17:00:02< mordante> Sirp, all random numbers or the initial seed?
20090404 17:00:27< ilor> Crab_: not sure yet. We could probably handle sending the random numbers since we're already sending the attack data
20090404 17:00:56< ilor> mordante: I thought the point was to send numbers and not the seed to make guessing the combat outcome impossible
20090404 17:01:19< Crab_> ilor:  just be sure to prevent the exploit of "get random data, then see how in which combat it can be used best"
20090404 17:01:33< mordante> ilor, I assume that as well, but will be more work, hence the questioj
20090404 17:01:40< mordante> question*
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20090404 17:01:49< ilor> Crab_: yeah that would be similarily bad
20090404 17:01:49< Sapient> yo Ivanovic
20090404 17:01:49< mordante> hi Sapient 
20090404 17:01:55< Sapient> yo mordante
20090404 17:02:02< Ivanovic> hi Sapient
20090404 17:02:08< ilor> Ivanovic: you're successful, finally ;)
20090404 17:02:14< boucman> Crab_: that would work because the order of the numbers are important, and random numbers would only be sent by server
20090404 17:02:21< Ivanovic> Sapient: please join #wesnth-mentor currently doing some talk about possible candidates for SoC including some ranking
20090404 17:02:29< Sapient> kk
20090404 17:02:32< Ivanovic> arg, #wesnoth-mentor i mean
20090404 17:02:32< boucman> thus all client would have to use all random numbers in the same order, or cause OOS
20090404 17:03:29< Crab_> boucman: even played a game with 'static random seed on reload' ? it can be abused, basically, by checking all available actions and seeing, for which action that random seed will yield best results
20090404 17:03:41< Sirp> mordante: all random numbers.
20090404 17:03:47< mordante> ok
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20090404 17:04:09< Sirp> I don't think it should add very much traffic, load, or latency.
20090404 17:04:20< boucman> Crab_: yes, that's why the server should provide the number after the decision to attack has been taken
20090404 17:04:38< boucman> because at this point the random numbers can be sent to all clients, since the action has been decided
20090404 17:04:43< ilor> well it could add a slight delay between clicking to attack and the actual attack taking place
20090404 17:04:44< Crab_> boucman: yes. and not *number*, but *numbers*. enough for 30 rounds of combat.
20090404 17:05:09< boucman> Crab_: if you send number before they are requested, then yes, it can be abused
20090404 17:05:13< Crab_> boucman, or 'that-number-of-rounds-that-berserker-uses'. to avoid latency issues.
20090404 17:05:24< Sirp> ilor: yeah but I think it should be slight.
20090404 17:05:26< ilor> but I think normally the interface delay will be larger than the net lag
20090404 17:05:39< ilor> especially if we start playing the animation immediately ;)
20090404 17:05:40< boucman> if all clients skip the same random number, it's still fine
20090404 17:05:52< Crab_> boucman: yes.
20090404 17:06:11< boucman> ilor: can't be done for the first strike
20090404 17:06:20< boucman> we need to know if the attack succeed to choose the animation
20090404 17:06:30< ilor> boucman: ah true
20090404 17:07:31< Crab_> boucman: well, that will introduce something like '2*client-to-server-delay+server_processing_time' of additional latency, per combat.
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20090404 17:08:00< ilor> Crab_: client-serverRTT+server_processing
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20090404 17:08:22< ilor> Crab_: measuring one-way lag is tricky anyway ;)
20090404 17:08:47< Crab_> ilor: the main good thing that this is *per combat*, not *per blow* :)
20090404 17:08:54< ilor> yes definitely
20090404 17:10:44< CIA-30> esr * r34461 /trunk/data/ (17 files in 8 dirs): 
20090404 17:10:44< CIA-30> Use the translation-note passthrough feature of new wmlgettext in various
20090404 17:10:44< CIA-30> places where it is appropriate. Also, fix up a textdomain and polish some
20090404 17:10:44< CIA-30> dialog in SoF a bit.
20090404 17:11:34< boucman> esr: I've assigned a feature request to you today...
20090404 17:12:37< ilor> I think code-wise it could be done with a caching server-based-rng class
20090404 17:12:55< esr> boucman: URL?
20090404 17:13:11< ilor> the beginning of combat would ask it to grab some numbers from the server, end of combat would ask it to flush
20090404 17:13:14< boucman> https://gna.org/bugs/?13318
20090404 17:13:18< Crab_> ilor: so, (for example) if that delay, for example, is 50 msec, then, if we have a game of 100 combats, that gives us '5 seconds' of delay per such game, to prevent cheating. quite acceptable, IMO.
20090404 17:13:50< ilor> do we have some stats on the range of RTT people get to wesnoth mp server?
20090404 17:14:45 * boucman rereads euschn, corn will be next
20090404 17:14:52< ilor> hmmm, this could require some WML support for scenarios that use random numbers outside combat heavily
20090404 17:15:17< ilor> becuase by default it'd just contact the server each time any bit of code requests a random number
20090404 17:15:27< Crab_> ilor: yes. they should do their work in *batches* ...
20090404 17:15:28< esr> boucman: Hm, yeah, I think I can do that.  It will be a wmlscope check, not a wmllint one, but the difference won't matter to you I don't think.
20090404 17:15:36< ilor> so WML should have access to the batch requests and flushing
20090404 17:15:48< boucman> esr: it won't matter to me, it's for WML authors :P
20090404 17:16:23< Crab_> ilor: why flushing ? flushing should be automatic, IMO. to make sure noone forgets about it )
20090404 17:16:38< ilor> automatic *where*
20090404 17:17:16< Crab_> ilor: for example, in combat - as soon as combat is over, that random bits should just 'go out of scope'
20090404 17:17:28< ilor> well yeah combat is the easy case
20090404 17:17:57< ilor> but WML I'm not sure yet. maybe at the end of processing an event?
20090404 17:17:58< Crab_> ilor: in wml - it should be restricted to single wml game event, imo
20090404 17:18:17< esr> boucman: Actually, now that I think of it, I probably don't have to do anything.  If a filename and its reference differ by case, well, wmllint does case-senstive matches, so it will tsee the reference as unresolved and complain.
20090404 17:18:18< ilor> can events be fired from one another?
20090404 17:18:23< Sapient> yes
20090404 17:18:32< Sapient> [fire_event] name="x"
20090404 17:18:45< boucman> esr: would this work when running wmlscope on windows ?
20090404 17:18:57< ilor> Sapient: it processes the event, and then returns and continues the current one, yes?
20090404 17:19:00< boucman>  /wmlscope/wmllint
20090404 17:19:01< Crab_> ilor: we can just create a atomic wml function that 'sets all these user-supplied variables' to random values
20090404 17:19:04< Sapient> ilor: yes
20090404 17:19:24< esr> boucman: Yes, wmlscope doesn't rely on the native filesystem for matching.
20090404 17:19:32< Crab_> ilor, and after that that'll be to wml author to use that random bits as they desire.
20090404 17:19:38< ilor> Crab_: yeah, WesnothSSE - set 4 random numvers at the same time ;)
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20090404 17:19:42< boucman> ok, good, could you patch a comment wrt that ?
20090404 17:20:01< Crab_> :)
20090404 17:20:11< ilor> Crab_: in general, not that simple
20090404 17:20:18< Crab_> ilor: why ?
20090404 17:20:59< ilor> well it'd suck if we put umc creators in a position where they have to rewrite random-using routines using possibly non-obvious code
20090404 17:21:08< ilor> I'd rather avoid that
20090404 17:21:23< Crab_> ilor: we can make that old ones 'just work', and provide a new 'secure alternative'
20090404 17:21:30-!- AndreLuiz_ [n=AndreLui@unaffiliated/andreluiz] has left #wesnoth-dev ["Leaving"]
20090404 17:21:57< ilor> well the rng buffer could be flushed when the top-level event finishes
20090404 17:22:14< ilor> should be easy enough to figure that out
20090404 17:22:25< Crab_> ilor: yes, we could make a sensible default for that 'just work' part.  'when the top-level event finishes' sounds good
20090404 17:22:57< ilor> and two new commands, set rng caching and flush
20090404 17:23:10< ilor> set would make it ask for N numbers when the buffer is empty
20090404 17:23:24< Crab_> ilor: why we need flush ? 
20090404 17:23:50< ilor> not sure yet actually, trying to think of a use
20090404 17:24:05< Crab_> ilor: if we make 'function that stores N random numbers into a var', that should be enough for non-default uses
20090404 17:24:19< ilor> Crab_: no, that's very unobvious
20090404 17:24:32< ilor> I want it to use caching in a smart way
20090404 17:25:32< silene> why do you need N random numbers for wml? why not ask just one and generate the other one from it?
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20090404 17:26:31< Crab_> silene: and who will generate the other one ?
20090404 17:26:37< Crab_> silene: client or server ?
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20090404 17:27:14< ilor> well it's a point
20090404 17:27:17< silene> client; same algorithms for all the clients; since it is a wml event, it doesn't matter if players can predict it
20090404 17:27:19< Crab_> if 'server', that adds latency. if 'client', then a modified client will know that number in advance without disclosing its actions to server first. this will allow cheating.
20090404 17:27:43< ilor> events can just ask for a seed and the entire event works with that seed
20090404 17:27:46< silene> Crab_: it allows cheating only if you have a way to make a decision
20090404 17:27:50< Crab_> silene: yes
20090404 17:27:54< esr> Ivanovic: ping?
20090404 17:27:58< Ivanovic> esr: pong
20090404 17:28:07< Ivanovic> no, i have not checked python based wmlxgettext yet
20090404 17:28:08< boucman> the problem we had with WML events is that these random events are very hard to synchronize
20090404 17:28:10< Crab_> silene: wml events can ask for questions from players :) 
20090404 17:28:29< esr> Ivanovic: I'm working on it and have some feature questions.
20090404 17:28:30< Crab_> silene: so, basically, a player *can* make decisions from inside wml event )
20090404 17:28:37< Ivanovic> ah, okay
20090404 17:28:42< boucman> i.e a client might need a random number without the other clients being aware of it, so avoiding cheat need very strict programming by the WML authors
20090404 17:29:07< boucman> I think that a server side RNG that does the engine and a client side (similar to the current one) would be enough
20090404 17:29:25-!- alink [n=alink@wesnoth/developer/alink] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090404 17:29:38< ilor> boucman: what would the client-side one do?
20090404 17:30:00< esr> Ivanovic: First, I've implemented a facility for passing through "#po:" comments and put them where needed in mainline, notably where you pointed out they were needed for Krawg's dialog in SoF.
20090404 17:30:15< boucman> it would forward the random number to other if needed (i.e no anticheat here) but that could only be used for WML 
20090404 17:30:22< Ivanovic> good, saw the commit message
20090404 17:30:23< Sapient> euschn: there?
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20090404 17:31:28< Crab_> ilor: let's return to the simpler case with 'attack', and let's look 'why it is simpler' ? it is simpler because 1) we know the exact moment when the final decision (src,dst,weapon) is made, and can tell the decision when asking for rng's.   2) we keep the rng object around for all the combat and it can provide us with endless supply of good random bits (in batches, each of the batches introduces some latency, 1 batch is *enough* for c
20090404 17:31:28< esr> I don;'t understand the use of the initialdomain (-i) option.  It looks like that's just a stub in the Perl.  What do you want it to do, if anything?
20090404 17:32:12< Ivanovic> esr: i don't know wmlxgettext
20090404 17:32:24< Ivanovic> for me it is a blackbox that "just works"
20090404 17:32:26< Ivanovic> ;)
20090404 17:32:28< esr> Huh?  Who uses it, then?
20090404 17:32:41< Ivanovic> i *use* it but don't alter it
20090404 17:32:42< esr> Do you ever use the -i option?
20090404 17:32:58< Ivanovic> i only use it via the autotools so far
20090404 17:33:03< Ivanovic> *not* directly calling it
20090404 17:33:08 * esr looks...
20090404 17:33:12< ilor> Crab_: yeah just using a seed is good enough
20090404 17:33:47< Ivanovic> *maybe* torangan does use it directly, you will have to ask him via mail
20090404 17:33:59< Ivanovic> (since this might be needed for wescamp stuff, not sure though)
20090404 17:34:15 * ilor brb
20090404 17:34:31< Crab_> ilor: so, for WML, we need to tell WML authors: 'firstly let the player decide', then 'get random numbers to calculate based on this decision'.
20090404 17:35:51< esr> Ivanovic: What production invokes it?  I can't find a reference in Makefile.am.
20090404 17:36:05< Ivanovic> esr: i have no idea, i don't know
20090404 17:36:21< Ivanovic> that is: i don't know how torangan creates initial translations in wescamp
20090404 17:36:21< Crab_> ilor: and, when getting random numbers, the game must send all those decisions to server
20090404 17:36:34< esr> Ivanovic: So, um, how does it ever get run?  What do you do to use it?
20090404 17:37:04< Ivanovic> wmlxgettext is called from our build tools when i run a pot-update to update the po files
20090404 17:37:29< Ivanovic> IIRC it is basically just a call to wmlxgettext providing it with a textdomain to use and a list of files to parse
20090404 17:37:37< Ivanovic> though about this is am *not sure at all*
20090404 17:37:37< esr> Ah, I see. So it's "make po-update"? Or do you call a scripy?
20090404 17:38:11< Ivanovic> yes, it is "make update-po" and i run it from inside of po/
20090404 17:39:04 * esr looks...
20090404 17:41:04< Polarina> Ivanovic: I send you updated translations. :)
20090404 17:41:48< esr> Ivanovic: The fact that all this machinery is a black box tangled up with autotools is beginning to scare the shit out of me.
20090404 17:42:09< Ivanovic> esr: hey, i don't know you this easy to scare...
20090404 17:42:21< Ivanovic> esr: you could also ask mordante what he has done to rework this stuff in cmake
20090404 17:42:29< Ivanovic> since IIRC this stuff *should* now basically be ready
20090404 17:43:23< Reisiger> ilor: Merged my project-file with the one you uploaded to trunk.
20090404 17:43:23< Reisiger> Got now a bunch of error messages: ...
20090404 17:43:51< esr> Ivanovic: I'm easy to sfrighten about long-term maintainability issues.  You haven't noticed this before?
20090404 17:44:20< Ivanovic> esr: and that is why this perl blackbox should be replaced by a readable blackbox
20090404 17:44:23< Ivanovic> ;)
20090404 17:44:28< Crab_> boucman: "i.e a client might need a random number without the other clients being aware of it," - how the current MP code deals with "a client might need to move a unit without the other clients being aware of it" ?
20090404 17:44:29< Reisiger> http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/d123e94a7
20090404 17:44:54< Ivanovic> Crab_: not at all
20090404 17:44:57< boucman> Crab_: when a unit moves, all client are aware of it
20090404 17:45:03< Ivanovic> that is: the move is only transmitted once it is undoable
20090404 17:45:09< Ivanovic> then all can know about it anyway
20090404 17:45:11-!- Turuk [n=Turuk@wesnoth/forumsith/turuk] has quit [Connection reset by peer]
20090404 17:45:12< boucman> everything is fogless as far as MP protocol is concerned
20090404 17:45:14< Polarina> Ivanovic: Should I create a wiki page about the Icelandic translation? If yes, what should it contain?
20090404 17:45:17< Crab_> so, there's no point in hiding RNGs
20090404 17:45:26-!- Turuk [n=Turuk@wesnoth/forumsith/turuk] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090404 17:45:27< esr> Ivanovic: Well yes, I a gree with that.  It's just that I'm now finding out that there is an opaque mass of tangled crap *surrounding* wmlgettext.  And that  I do not like.
20090404 17:45:35< Ivanovic> Polarina: yes, you should create one and it should at least info for a new translator to get in contact with you
20090404 17:45:41< Ivanovic> so that we can redirect new ones there
20090404 17:45:49< Polarina> Ok.
20090404 17:45:57< Polarina> I'll do that while you commit the new translations. :D
20090404 17:46:00< Crab_> boucman: it just needs to be random_number(for_execution_of_decision)=f(server_produced_seed(client_decision made)))
20090404 17:46:09< Ivanovic> beside this: it is all up to you, in the german translation we got a page for errors, a list of "who works on what", a list of default terms and stuff like this
20090404 17:46:13< boucman> yes
20090404 17:47:20< Crab_> and the client RNG should be *good enough* to not be statistically biased regarding the server rng, of course.
20090404 17:47:41< Crab_> but this is simple
20090404 17:47:45< CIA-30> torangan * r34462 /branches/1.6/ (7 files in 7 dirs): swedish translation update
20090404 17:48:23< CIA-30> ivanovic * r34463 /trunk/po/ (18 files in 18 dirs): updated Icelandic translation
20090404 17:48:28< CIA-30> ivanovic * r34464 /branches/1.6/po/ (18 files in 18 dirs): updated Icelandic translation
20090404 17:49:49< Espreon> esr: Do you think that the Sea Serpent should use fangs-snake.png?
20090404 17:50:41< mordante> esr, still have a question about wmlxgettext ?
20090404 17:50:45< esr> Espreon: It seems reasonable.
20090404 17:50:49< Espreon> Very well.
20090404 17:51:07< esr> mordante: Yes, several.  Starting with:
20090404 17:51:22< esr> 1. How in the heck is it ever invoked?
20090404 17:52:04< mordante> at po/CMakeLists.txt:201
20090404 17:52:11< Polarina> Ivanovic: Should it be in Icelandic or English?
20090404 17:52:17< CIA-30> espreon * r34465 /trunk/data/core/ (3 files in 2 dirs): Added fangs-snake.png and wired it into the Water Serpent and the Sea Serpent. (Art approved by Jetryl)
20090404 17:52:40< Ivanovic> Polarina: your choice
20090404 17:52:43< Polarina> Ok.
20090404 17:52:47< Ivanovic> Polarina: the german page is, of course, in german
20090404 17:52:48 * esr looks
20090404 17:52:49< Ivanovic> ;)
20090404 17:52:58< Polarina> (;
20090404 17:53:04-!- KnightR [n=anonymou@bb121-7-175-14.singnet.com.sg] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090404 17:53:35< Ivanovic> esr: the stuff from the makefile: ${WMLXGETTEXT} --directory=$(top_srcdir) --domain=$(DOMAIN) `cd $(top_srcdir) && sh $(subdir)/FINDCFG` > $(DOMAIN).wml.po ;
20090404 17:54:00< esr> Ah, I was looking for a lowercase match.
20090404 17:54:30< esr> OK, so --initialdomain really never is used.  Good, that's part of what I needed to know.
20090404 17:55:14< Ivanovic> in mainline it is not, in wescamp it *might* be used, no idea though, probably not
20090404 17:56:17 * Polarina hopes this will be good enough. http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/IcelandicTranslation
20090404 17:56:51< esr> Ivanovic: Probablty not.  As I said, -i is a stub in the Perl.
20090404 17:56:59< Ivanovic> then it is unused
20090404 18:00:17< CIA-30> esr * r34466 /trunk/data/tools/wmlxgettext: Remove pointless -i/--initialdomain option inherited from Perl.
20090404 18:00:28< ilor> huh my 1.6 branch build just crashed when sitting in the lobby
20090404 18:01:05< Polarina> ilor: Go submit a patch. :)
20090404 18:01:10< Sapient> guess it's time to start playing in gdb
20090404 18:01:17< ilor> and I found a bit of funny code there, terrain_translation.cpp:317
20090404 18:01:21< ilor> might not need gdb
20090404 18:01:39< esr> Ivanovic: Also I have some questions about the kind of reporting you want.
20090404 18:01:46< ilor> it first accesess str[pos] and *then* checks if pos is equal to string::npos
20090404 18:02:03< Ivanovic> esr: reporting?
20090404 18:02:11< Sapient> ilor: good catch
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20090404 18:02:17< esr> I'm going to show you my test load and the generated output from it.
20090404 18:02:41< Ivanovic> in general i prefer: no output unless an error occurs
20090404 18:02:46< esr> The test load: http://rafb.net/p/bgpzZ244.html
20090404 18:02:48< ilor> Sapient: well, msvc dropped me into the debugger at this line, didn't have to look for it ;)
20090404 18:03:14< esr> The output: http://rafb.net/p/jkXtXZ36.html
20090404 18:03:39< Reisiger> ilor: Did you place all required includes and libs into each a directory inside the VC9 project folder?
20090404 18:03:53< esr> I think the context reportiing around the strings is too thick and should be filtered.  The question is how.
20090404 18:04:10< ilor> Reisiger: I have the headers and libs in dirs defined as global include and library dirs for msvc
20090404 18:04:54 * Polarina translated 284 strings today. :D
20090404 18:04:55 * Polarina hides.
20090404 18:05:00< CIA-30> ilor * r34467 /branches/1.6/src/terrain_translation.cpp: first check if pos_separator is valid and *then* access str to avoid a crash.
20090404 18:05:08< Reisiger> K. I assume thats in settings somewhere?
20090404 18:05:14< Ivanovic> looks rather fine to me, esr
20090404 18:05:48< Sapient> some of us can't read black text on black background
20090404 18:06:18< esr> I thought the "unint" attributes were measnt to be filrteted out,, but I was unclear what you want to use as a criterion exactly.
20090404 18:07:02< ilor> Reisiger: tools-options-projects and solutions-vc++ directories
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20090404 18:08:55< Reisiger> ok thanks :)
20090404 18:09:09< mordante> esr, I've no problem with DM moving to mainline and I prefer to do it sooner as later once the prosa is done (which you said was done)
20090404 18:09:41< esr> mordante: Good, because it's schedules for Wednesday.
20090404 18:09:56< mordante> I read the dev-ml ;-)
20090404 18:13:30< Polarina> What is scheduled for Wednesday?
20090404 18:13:59< ilor> Polarina: new campaign goes mainline, Delfador's Memories
20090404 18:14:15< Polarina> Cool.
20090404 18:14:27< Polarina> Is that going for 1.6.x or 1.8?
20090404 18:14:39< elias> did someone finish it?
20090404 18:14:40< CIA-30> ilor * r34468 /trunk/src/terrain_translation.cpp: first check if pos_separator is valid and *then* access str to avoid a crash.
20090404 18:14:57< elias> i played it years ago, and then it stopped just at a real cliffhanger scenario
20090404 18:14:59< CIA-30> esr * r34469 /trunk/data/tools/wmlxgettext: Don't generate exiguous space.
20090404 18:15:03< boucman> Polarina: 1.7
20090404 18:15:10< Polarina> boucman: Ok.
20090404 18:15:24 * Polarina can't wait.
20090404 18:15:47< boucman> Polarina: it's already available as an UMC
20090404 18:15:50< elias> Delfador was captured in the underworld or something, was wondering how he got out ever since :P
20090404 18:16:35 * ilor just learned a new word - "exiguous". thanks, esr ;)
20090404 18:16:48-!- voris [n=voris@c-24-16-107-149.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090404 18:17:15 * Polarina thanks esr too.
20090404 18:17:43< esr> :-)
20090404 18:18:34< Reisiger> Q: which version of boost is officially used? 1.33.0 or the newest available?
20090404 18:19:18< Polarina> Reisiger: Stop asking dull questions and just install a recent version.
20090404 18:19:40< ilor> Polarina: it's not a dull question sicne we officially use a non-recent version
20090404 18:19:57< mordante> Reisiger, whatever you have at your system, but 1.33.0 is the official minimum version
20090404 18:20:00< Polarina> ilor: recent != newest available.
20090404 18:20:32-!- crimson_p [n=irchon@64.201.60.216] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090404 18:20:47< ilor> Polarina: it still doesn't make it a dull question
20090404 18:20:52< Espreon> Hello crimson_p.
20090404 18:20:52< mordante> recent always works for certain values of recent :-P
20090404 18:21:31< crimson_p> hi
20090404 18:22:20< CIA-30> soliton * r34470 /branches/1.6/src/replay_controller.cpp: default to "each team" viewpoint for multiplayer replays
20090404 18:22:30< CIA-30> soliton * r34471 /branches/1.6/src/server/server.cpp: remove admins when they leave the server
20090404 18:23:07< CIA-30> ilor * r34472 /branches/1.6/src/menu_events.cpp: create a /adminmsg alias for /query adminmsg, update help info for /mute and make commands like /yellow /kick or /adminmsg complain if the argument is missing
20090404 18:23:24< ilor> Soliton: there.
20090404 18:23:31< Soliton> thanks.
20090404 18:25:34< Sapient> cya later, have fun.
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20090404 18:26:44< CIA-30> ilor * r34473 /trunk/src/menu_events.cpp: create a /adminmsg alias for /query adminmsg, update help info for /mute and make commands like /yellow /kick or /adminmsg complain if the argument is missing
20090404 18:26:56< ilor> Soliton: oh, did you update the changelog about the adminmgs thing?
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20090404 18:27:41< Soliton> ilor: the mp server side is mentioned, yes.
20090404 18:27:47< ilor> also, sirp, crab, I'll update my application with some ideas about the rng later today
20090404 18:27:53-!- loonycyborg [n=sergey@79.139.246.137] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090404 18:28:54< CIA-30> mordante * r34474 /trunk/src/formula_ai.cpp: Fix indention.
20090404 18:29:00< ilor> should the new client command deserve a mention?
20090404 18:29:17< CIA-30> mordante * r34475 /trunk/ (4 files in 3 dirs): 
20090404 18:29:17< CIA-30> Reopen addon install dialog after installing one.
20090404 18:29:17< CIA-30> (patch #1152).
20090404 18:29:33< CIA-30> soliton * r34476 /branches/1.6/src/replay_controller.cpp: show side 1 correctly on the first turn
20090404 18:29:59-!- crimson_p [n=irchon@64.201.60.216] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090404 18:30:04< Soliton> mordante: did you test how that patch works?
20090404 18:30:11< corn> is 1.7 going to be a maintenence release?
20090404 18:30:22< Soliton> mordante: you get out of it when you press cancel?
20090404 18:30:22< boucman> no
20090404 18:30:26< ilor> corn: 1.7 will be the dev branch
20090404 18:30:30< boucman> maintenance release is 1.6.1
20090404 18:30:31< corn> ah
20090404 18:31:33-!- Elvish_Pillager [n=eli@66-189-40-122.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090404 18:31:47< loonycyborg> esr: look in po/SConscript if you want to know how wmlxgettext is used. It contains full and working implementation of autotools pot-update stuff.
20090404 18:32:05< CIA-30> espreon * r34477 /trunk/data/core/units/monsters/Water_Serpent.cfg: Ran set-properties.
20090404 18:32:10< CIA-30> soliton * r34478 /trunk/src/server/server.cpp: remove admins when they leave the server
20090404 18:32:26< esr> loonycyborg: Thanks.
20090404 18:32:32< CIA-30> soliton * r34479 /trunk/src/replay_controller.cpp: default to "each team" viewpoint for multiplayer replays
20090404 18:34:02< Espreon> Why does Sea_Serpent.cfg have svn:keywords assigned to it, even though $Id$ does not exist within the file?
20090404 18:39:01< mordante> Soliton, yes why you have problems with it?
20090404 18:41:35-!- csaunders [n=christop@ip216-239-77-163.vif.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090404 18:41:41< CIA-30> mordante * r34480 /trunk/src/ (22 files in 4 dirs): Remove trailing whitespace.
20090404 18:41:58 * csaunders pings mordante
20090404 18:42:02< mordante> csaunders, is your website up again?
20090404 18:42:14< csaunders> should be in about 2 minutes
20090404 18:42:19< mordante> great
20090404 18:42:50< csaunders> alright, it should be up :D
20090404 18:43:15< Soliton> mordante: no, just looked at the patch and wondered if it is much of an improvement in usability.
20090404 18:44:49< mordante> also not 100% sure about that part, I prefer to download it without closing the dialog 
20090404 18:45:04< mordante> but that would be more work, which I prefer to do in gui2
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20090404 18:46:28< mordante> csaunders, the games/get/pie is the only page available at the moment?
20090404 18:46:48< csaunders> yes...
20090404 18:47:20< csaunders> I was trying to work on something else... but I am rather new to rails :(
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20090404 18:47:57< csaunders> wanted to have a graphs controller then get use that to perform games searches and such...  things don't work like that apparently
20090404 18:48:26-!- Crab_ [n=crab_@c.218.175.a530.sta.adsl.cyfra.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090404 18:48:26< mordante> the chart looks a bit odd with only green bars and the legenda has 2-3 values for all colours
20090404 18:48:38< csaunders> yeah, it's a little strange...
20090404 18:49:08< csaunders> one second... I will switch it up with a more, informative one 
20090404 18:55:43-!- crimson_penguin [n=ben@64.201.60.216] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090404 18:57:56< Espreon> Hello crimson_penguin.
20090404 18:57:59< csaunders> mordante: there I have a better one up
20090404 18:58:15< crimson_penguin> hi Espreon 
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20090404 18:58:57< mordante> csaunders, ok thanks
20090404 18:59:07< csaunders> mordante: np
20090404 19:02:42< Crab_> ilor, regarding that 'random number generation' thing. One of the ways to make it "reliably" work is to make a client-side rng which can be in 2 states: "active" and "not active".Before giving the player the opportunity to do decision (no matter what decision, be it 'enter text in the wml-event dialog', or 'move' or 'attack', or 'end turn'), RNG should be set to 'not active'. procedure which gets random number from that client-side RNG
20090404 19:03:15< Crab_> rocedure which gets random number from that client-side RNG should check for 'active' state, and if the RNG is not active, do two things: 
20090404 19:03:18< Crab_> 1) ensure that all player decisions are successfully synced across the network.
20090404 19:03:21< Crab_>  2) get a new random seed on server'. 
20090404 19:03:23< ilor> Crab_: I think it could just work with a special wml command to get a new RNG seed
20090404 19:03:25< Crab_> This will give us a basic security guarantee that "player will know the next random numbers"  and "player is able to influence the flow of the game" will not be TRUE at the same time, 
20090404 19:03:28< Crab_>  thus preventing cheating (because altering anything 'already synced across the net' will cause OOS)
20090404 19:03:49< Crab_> ilor: and no need for any WML editors to be aware of the implementation.
20090404 19:04:07< ilor> ah I see your point, interesting
20090404 19:04:26< ilor> so in general every user interaction would invalidate the RNG status
20090404 19:04:51< ilor> and a following request for a random number would result in phoning the server for a seed
20090404 19:04:55< Crab_> yes
20090404 19:05:11< ilor> but as long as there is no more interaction, more random numbers can be generated from that seed
20090404 19:05:11< Crab_> and the seed will hold as long as no 'input from player'
20090404 19:05:19< ilor> I think it makes sense
20090404 19:05:58< Crab_> yes. of course, showing animations is not ' interaction' in that sense )
20090404 19:05:59-!- Turuk [n=Turuk@wesnoth/forumsith/turuk] has quit ["To err is human.. but to really foul things up requires a computer"]
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20090404 19:07:49< Crab_> and this even plays nice with WML - we just need to *mark* all user-can-decide-here parts (such as 'please select from those options') wml messages.
20090404 19:08:13< Crab_> so scenario creators won't have to do anything special.
20090404 19:08:38< Crab_> and this means *no* possibility for errors on *their* part )
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20090404 19:10:57< mordante> I'm off bye
20090404 19:11:11-!- mordante [n=mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has quit ["Leaving"]
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20090404 19:20:04 * Reisiger hugs ilor
20090404 19:20:28< Reisiger> Thanks. Much easier now with using one folder for libs and includes each :)
20090404 19:20:40-!- cjhopman [n=chris@wesnoth/developer/cjhopman] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090404 19:21:09< zookeeper> looks like too much RNG discussion to read...
20090404 19:22:03< Crab_> zookeeper: hehe
20090404 19:26:29< ilor> zookeeper: but none of it is about whether the RGN is "fair" :)
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20090404 19:28:23< zookeeper> ilor, luckily
20090404 19:29:10-!- Baufo [n=thomas@wesnoth/developer/baufo] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090404 19:29:39< Baufo> hi
20090404 19:30:36< Espreon> Hello Baufo.
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20090404 19:43:17< Dragonking> Good evening everyone
20090404 19:44:03< Crab_> Dragonking, evening :) take a look at https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?13317 
20090404 19:44:44< Crab_> Dragonking: formula ai is *too* powerful sometimes :))
20090404 19:45:09< Dragonking> "Debug function shouldn't make any move nor attack."
20090404 19:45:11-!- Turuk [n=Turuk@wesnoth/forumsith/turuk] has quit [Success]
20090404 19:45:15< Dragonking> I disagree.
20090404 19:45:26-!- Turuk [n=Turuk@wesnoth/forumsith/turuk] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090404 19:45:26< CIA-30> loonycyborg * r34481 /branches/1.6/packaging/windows/Wesnoth.nsi.in: 
20090404 19:45:26< CIA-30> Added start menu shortcuts for changelogs and license.
20090404 19:45:26< CIA-30> (cherry picked from commit r34459(trunk))
20090404 19:45:32< Dragonking> It is purpose of this function to pass away what it gets.
20090404 19:45:46< Crab_> I disagree too, but the bug is not related to debug_print at all
20090404 19:45:55< Dragonking> So you can do something like   foo( debug_print( foo2( debug_print( foo3() ) ) ) ..
20090404 19:46:07< Crab_> Dragonking: the bug is in 'attacks' global variable
20090404 19:46:25< Crab_> for it, according to documentation, returns a lists of possible attacks
20090404 19:46:30< Dragonking> But it was first statement I read, so I anwered it. :)
20090404 19:46:56< Crab_> Dragonking: and since it can *evaluate* a possible attack as a attack order, it tries to :) and succeeds :)
20090404 19:47:18< boucman> Crab_: yes, that's expected :P
20090404 19:47:55< Crab_> yes ) so the 'attacks' routine has a bug , since the formula ai is *too* powerful and likes to evaluate everything in can ))
20090404 19:49:12< Dragonking> That's not a problem, that's feature.
20090404 19:49:23< Crab_> then the documentation should be changed :)
20090404 19:49:39< Dragonking> Which documentation?
20090404 19:49:45< Crab_> Dragonking: http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/FormulaAI#Available_variables
20090404 19:50:20< Crab_> and there's inconsistency - for example, my_moves doesn't do moves :)
20090404 19:50:21< boucman> why is that ?
20090404 19:50:47< Dragonking> Cause it is wrapped.
20090404 19:50:55< Dragonking> my_moves.moves
20090404 19:50:55< CIA-30> silene * r34482 /trunk/src/builder.cpp: Cleaned code by removing useless pointers and duplication.
20090404 19:50:59< CIA-30> silene * r34483 /trunk/src/unit.cpp: Cleaned code by removing useless pointers.
20090404 19:51:04< CIA-30> silene * r34484 /trunk/src/ (5 files): Added a config::child variant for safe initialization.
20090404 19:51:10< CIA-30> silene * r34485 /trunk/src/ (6 files): Added a config::add_child variant that does not create the child if it already exists.
20090404 19:51:22< CIA-30> silene * r34486 /trunk/src/ (config.cpp config.hpp): Removed last bits of implementation from config interface.
20090404 19:51:35< CIA-30> silene * r34487 /trunk/src/ (59 files in 8 dirs): Got rid of pointers to config objects. Removed code duplication along the way.
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20090404 19:52:56< Espreon> Hello stikonas.
20090404 19:53:27< Crab_> Dragonking: so, how this should be fixed ? it is a real-life issue ( benetnash run into it while trying to write AI in .fai :) ) . 
20090404 19:53:40< Dragonking> Hod did he 'run' into it?
20090404 19:53:44< stikonas> Hi Espreon
20090404 19:53:52< Dragonking> I used it all the time and neved had serious problem.
20090404 19:54:10< Dragonking> If you want to list attacks, surrind it with [ ]
20090404 19:54:15< Dragonking> surround'
20090404 19:54:39< boucman> Crab_: there is a "secret function" called void, that takes no parameter and returns an empty variant()
20090404 19:54:39< Dragonking> Bah, typos :/
20090404 19:54:59< boucman> make it have an optional (unused parameter) to neuterize a formula
20090404 19:55:43< Dragonking> Honestly, I do not think it is really an issue.
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20090404 19:56:29< Crab_> Dragonking: the fact that the current documentation is misleading to the person who is trying to create something with .fai - is clearly an issue :)
20090404 19:56:58< Dragonking> Crab_: Feel free to correct any mistake in a wiki.
20090404 19:56:58< boucman> Crab_: if it's only a doc issue, then fix the doc I guess..
20090404 19:58:06< Crab_> Dragonking: well, if the source and the docs disagree, then it is a bug and something has to be changed :) of course, we can change the docs (i'll do so) :)
20090404 19:58:55< Dragonking> I have never called a mistake in documentation a "bug" ;)
20090404 19:59:12< Dragonking> Crab_: Anyway, good job spotting this.
20090404 19:59:25< Crab_> Dragonking: it's not me ) I've only debugged a bit.
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20090404 20:04:59< CIA-30> silene * r34488 /trunk/src/replay.cpp: Constified.
20090404 20:05:23< Crab_> Dragonking: so, I'll change the docs to account for the fact that 'attacks' auto-evaluate into 'try-to-do-the-first-possbile-attacks' and mention the [] workaround you're mentioned ?
20090404 20:06:35< Dragonking> Crab_: Yes, that and maybe this void() that boucman mentioned
20090404 20:07:25< Crab_> Dragonking:and the [] workaround is weird a bit :)
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20090404 20:08:14< Crab_> Dragonking: you can do [attacks] to view the list of attacks without evaluation, but, to view the 1st attack in that list, you need not [attacks[0]], but [[attacks[0]]] :)
20090404 20:08:47< Dragonking> It is a bit weird, I know. :)
20090404 20:08:52< Dragonking> It's a matter of preference
20090404 20:09:13< Crab_> it is a matter of documentation :)))
20090404 20:09:20< boucman> well, there are all sort of ways of not returning an action (or a list of actions)
20090404 20:09:26< boucman> the question is : is this a bug ?
20090404 20:09:32< Dragonking> No
20090404 20:09:38< Crab_> yes :)
20090404 20:09:43< Dragonking> Crab_: I said, you can suggest []
20090404 20:09:51< Dragonking> YOu cna suggest void()
20090404 20:09:53< Crab_> yes, we can fix it by fixing the docs :)
20090404 20:09:59< Crab_> and I will do so now
20090404 20:10:48< Crab_> because editors mostly read the docs, not study the source, so we need to tell them how it should work :)
20090404 20:15:20< boucman> Crab_: wether doc problems are counted as bugs or not is subject to discussion
20090404 20:16:19< Soliton> we certainly get bug reports about wesnoth documentation.
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20090404 20:18:03< Crab_> boucman: ok ) but I understand the confusion such issues can cause to the scenario editors, therefore I try to make sure that the docs correspond with the actual behavior. and if the docs and the actual behavior differs - that's, IMO, a bug somewhere in there - either in the docs, or in the actual behavior.
20090404 20:18:55< lizard_r> Soliton, I wounder about the saved replays, is the web interface going to improve or will it stay like that? (just curious, not demanding anything)
20090404 20:19:00< boucman> Crab_: it's semantic... not really important. The important part is that we do fix the doc
20090404 20:19:30< Soliton> lizard_r: it shall stay like that for all eternity!
20090404 20:19:56< lizard_r> are the replays files or a database?
20090404 20:19:57< Crab_> boucman: just fixed that one.
20090404 20:20:11< Soliton> just files.
20090404 20:20:46< Soliton> chains will hopefully make a nice interface soon.
20090404 20:21:57< lizard_r> chains can read mind :-)
20090404 20:23:12 * boucman is addicted to wesband :)
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20090404 20:25:28< Espreon> ilor: Around?
20090404 20:27:04< Crab_> Dragonking:  closed that benetnash's bug about 'attacks' with 'wontfix', suggested that [] workaround, plus updated the wiki. Not the way I'd like to do it, but let it be so...
20090404 20:27:26< Dragonking> Ok, thanks.
20090404 20:29:23< ilor> Espreon: kinda
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20090404 20:30:42 * Reisiger sacrifices the second half of the Ubuntu LiveCD since wesnoth compiled and runs now
20090404 20:31:05< Crab_> Reisiger: congratulations :)
20090404 20:31:27< Espreon> ilor: I noticed in the map editor (after you hit UtBS' terrain group), when you go over the campfire or summoning circle terrain buttons over and over again with the cursor, it seems like the images are constantly growing "thicker."
20090404 20:31:29< Reisiger> Thanks :) ilor's been a big help :)
20090404 20:31:38< Espreon> (I cannot find an adequate way to describe it)
20090404 20:32:04< boucman> this sound like a redraw/transparency problem...
20090404 20:32:13< boucman> in other word missing invalidation somewhere
20090404 20:32:17< Reisiger> And I can now tinker around and see if wesnoth is win7 x64 compatible :) 
20090404 20:32:17< Reisiger> (But since I'm using boost 1.38 and python 2.6 it should be)
20090404 20:32:32< Espreon> boucman: Indeed. The transparent part of those images grow more and more opaque.
20090404 20:32:38< Crab_> Reisiger: be sure to document your efforts, to open the way for future brave folks :)
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20090404 20:33:24 * boucman has not debugged hundreds of display bug for nothing :)
20090404 20:33:27< Espreon> This problem has been occurring for quite a while.
20090404 20:33:43< boucman> it's in the editor buttons only ?
20090404 20:33:47< Espreon> Yeah.
20090404 20:34:19< boucman> no idea how invalidation is handled there...
20090404 20:34:44< boucman> ok, afk for the evening now
20090404 20:35:03< Espreon> The images revert to their normal selves when alternating between fullscreen and windowed mode. But, the problem comes back once you go over the buttons again and again with the cursor.
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20090404 20:42:41< ilor> Espreon: confirmed, not a big issue though IMO
20090404 20:43:12< Espreon> So, you do not plan to fix it?
20090404 20:43:14< ilor> Espreon: I thingk a much bigger problem is the "palette goes FUBAR when you resize the window a couple of times"
20090404 20:43:32< ilor> I plan to not spend time on it soon but eventually fix it
20090404 20:43:56< Espreon> The palette going FUBAR happens when I alternate from fullscreen to windowed mode.
20090404 20:45:22< ilor> fullscreen as in maximize window not ctrl-f fullscreen?
20090404 20:46:10< Espreon> Fullscreen as in ctrl-f fullscreen.
20090404 20:46:41< ilor> doesn't do that for me, but maximizing does
20090404 20:46:46< ilor> it's a sad piece of code, that
20090404 20:48:15< Espreon> Oft, I have to alternate several times before the problem starts.
20090404 20:51:47< ilor> I think it breaks when you resize with a non-full palette
20090404 20:51:58< ilor> but fixes itself when you choose all and resize again
20090404 20:54:33< Espreon> That is true.
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20090404 21:13:06< CIA-30> silene * r34489 /trunk/src/unit.cpp: Removed config::all_children.
20090404 21:13:09< CIA-30> silene * r34490 /trunk/src/theme.cpp: Partly removed config::all_children.
20090404 21:13:13< CIA-30> silene * r34491 /trunk/src/unit_types.cpp: Removed config::all_children.
20090404 21:13:20< CIA-30> silene * r34492 /trunk/src/config.hpp: A few comments.
20090404 21:13:21< CIA-30> silene * r34493 /trunk/src/unit_abilities.cpp: Removed config::all_children.
20090404 21:13:25< CIA-30> silene * r34494 /trunk/src/gui/widgets/window_builder.cpp: Removed config::all_children. (bug fix)
20090404 21:17:58-!- Jetrel [n=Jetrel@wesnoth/artist/jetrel] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090404 21:18:35< CIA-30> soliton * r34495 /trunk/ (2 files in 2 dirs): switch defaults to the new trunk addon server
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20090404 21:19:50< Jetrel> I suppose I'd better get a 1.6 repo downloaded.
20090404 21:19:53< CIA-30> jetryl * r34496 /trunk/data/core/images/story/ (6 files): Updated kitty's story art images with better res and three new images.
20090404 21:20:05< CIA-30> ivanovic * r34497 /trunk/ (7 files in 6 dirs): updated Dutch translation
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20090404 21:20:11< CIA-30> ivanovic * r34498 /branches/1.6/ (7 files in 6 dirs): updated Dutch translation
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20090404 21:36:54< Sparks> hello?
20090404 21:37:04< Crab_> hi Sparks
20090404 21:37:06-!- Sparks is now known as Guest20366
20090404 21:37:21< Guest20366> o dear... 1 sec...
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20090404 21:38:06< Sparks> hi,  
20090404 21:38:19-!- Sparks is now known as Guest54070
20090404 21:38:50< Guest54070> Any idea why my IRC client keeps doing this anyone?     ' You failed to identify in time for the nickname Sparks' ?
20090404 21:38:57< Jetrel> hmm
20090404 21:39:02< Ivanovic> no
20090404 21:39:13< Jetrel> someone else might have claimed that name on freenode, with an associated password.
20090404 21:39:19-!- Guest54070 is now known as Sparks_
20090404 21:39:30< Ivanovic> [21:39:10] [Notice] -NickServ- Sparks has enabled nick protection
20090404 21:39:52< Ivanovic> basically: sparks is a registered account and you are only allowed to use it, when you identify yourself with the correct password
20090404 21:40:17< Sparks_> ...  hm..  Can I do that with Sparks_ ?
20090404 21:40:40< Ivanovic> sure, all info about registering and such is available on the freenode website in their faq
20090404 21:40:52< Sparks_> o cool...  I'll look around..
20090404 21:41:06< Sparks_> How ar the reviews going by the way? :)
20090404 21:41:15< Ivanovic> much to do...
20090404 21:41:30< Ivanovic> that is every proposal has *at least* one public comment by now
20090404 21:41:42< Sparks_> There is a lot of people this year isn't there?
20090404 21:42:04< Ivanovic> we got 35 proposals to rate
20090404 21:42:30< Sparks_> urgg...all in just over a week... :P
20090404 21:42:32< Ivanovic> and we most likely won't be able to take more than 1/7th of the proposals
20090404 21:42:48< Sparks_> How long as Wesnoth been doing GSoC btw?
20090404 21:42:55< Ivanovic> yes, this is one of the reasons why we want real contact with the students via irc
20090404 21:42:58< Ivanovic> we started last year
20090404 21:43:17< Ivanovic> directly got in and were accepted again this year
20090404 21:43:46< Sparks_> o right...  So how does Google decide who to give their places to for GSoC?
20090404 21:43:54< Ivanovic> some vodoo
20090404 21:44:00< Sparks_>  :)
20090404 21:45:18< Ivanovic> they are going by the proposal, by previous experience with orgs, by the "importance" of the project for open source, ...
20090404 21:45:21< Ivanovic> things like this
20090404 21:45:34< Ivanovic> at the end it comes down to "gut feeling" for many orgs
20090404 21:46:15< Sparks_> Well from the list, I don't think there is too many organisations for open-source games this year...
20090404 21:46:48< Ivanovic> there are some at least gaming related like bzflag and worldforge
20090404 21:47:14< Sparks_> um... btw I can't seem to see my proposal on Google now?  Is that right?
20090404 21:47:29< Ivanovic> your proposal is there
20090404 21:48:56< Sparks_> hmm...  usually there is a 'list proposals' section... it seems to have disappeared..  How do i view comments... ? :)
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20090404 21:49:12< Ivanovic> just click the link to your proposal
20090404 21:49:41< Ivanovic> maybe this link works for you, though i am *not* sure: http://socghop.appspot.com/student_proposal/review/google/gsoc2009/sparksteel/t123844691006
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20090404 21:49:50< Dragonking> Sparks_: Maybe you need to sign-in? ;)
20090404 21:50:00< Sparks_> lol... sorry guys :0
20090404 21:50:01-!- [Relic] [n=[Relic]@adsl-76-229-202-137.dsl.milwwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090404 21:50:08< velory> i dont understand what is thousand parsec
20090404 21:50:12< Sparks_> I signed in to mail but not GSoC :)
20090404 21:50:19< Sparks_> Thanks.. :P
20090404 21:50:28< Ivanovic> velory: it is "special"
20090404 21:50:55< velory> "special" ?
20090404 21:51:44< Ivanovic> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thousand_Parsec
20090404 21:51:58< Sparks_> Just a quick question guys...  Do I respond to comments on the proposal site via adding a comment of my own?  Or should I edit my wiki?
20090404 21:52:11< Ivanovic> respond by both
20090404 21:52:22< Ivanovic> though when editing the wiki, make sure we notice it by placing a comment
20090404 21:52:35< Ivanovic> for some requests a comment might be enough
20090404 21:52:45< velory> Ivanovic i know their wiki page and looking different thing
20090404 21:52:46< Ivanovic> that is: if you just edit the wiki page we might miss this change!
20090404 21:53:17< velory> hmm maybe i need to responds comments too
20090404 21:53:33< velory> i talked with you and boucman but comments but dunno :9
20090404 21:53:53< Ivanovic> please also use comments to make sure that we don't miss anything
20090404 21:54:12< Ivanovic> when there is a "hey, i updated my wiki page, please recheck" when we look at it the next time, we will probably do so
20090404 21:55:37< velory> Ok
20090404 21:56:48< [Relic]> Hello :)
20090404 21:57:14< Polarina> Hi.
20090404 21:57:27< [Relic]> :)
20090404 21:57:52< Polarina> :)
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20090404 22:25:10< dfranke> corn: how's the patch coming?
20090404 22:28:38< corn> dfranke: just about done for linux now
20090404 22:28:50< Polarina> :)
20090404 22:29:13< Polarina> The 1.6.1?
20090404 22:29:29< dfranke> corn: cool.  Mind sending me the work-in-progress?
20090404 22:29:35< corn> but I want to know how to exec the new binary in a distribution-agnostic way
20090404 22:29:55< corn> sure, give me a min to generate patches
20090404 22:30:24< dfranke> corn: I think you can assume the uploader binary is in the same directory as the wesnoth binary.
20090404 22:30:32< corn> ok
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20090404 22:32:01< dfranke> corn: I'll look in a moment, but there's probably already similar logic for finding the wesnothd binary that you can copy.
20090404 22:34:48< corn> ok
20090404 22:35:14< corn> would the cwd of the wesnoth binary be that directory
20090404 22:35:26< dfranke> no, I don't think so.
20090404 22:35:35< corn> ah
20090404 22:35:49< corn> ok, I'll check wesnothd right now
20090404 22:35:57< corn> I don't want to give you a patch with the directory hardcoded
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20090404 22:38:17< dfranke> corn: just email it to me, it's fine for now.  I want to see the rest of your work.
20090404 22:38:48< corn> ok
20090404 22:39:34< corn> gonna test and generate patch then, give me a few min
20090404 22:49:51< Crab_> Sirp, Ivanovic: I've written a "Goals" table in my wiki page.
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20090404 22:53:41< dfranke> corn: I thought I saw someone mention that you also have a prototype in mind in addition to these patches.  Did I read that correctly?
20090404 22:54:19< Ivanovic> Crab_: make sure to also post a comment in the application
20090404 22:55:15< corn> yes. I want to have that done by end of today or tomorrow
20090404 22:55:46< corn> I took the dumped data and reimported it into an sql table I have, right now I am coding the interface for it
20090404 22:56:21< Crab_> Ivanovic: thanks. done.
20090404 22:57:02< dfranke> corn: ok.  You should get the Linux patch finished, but once that's done, I think you should focus on improving the prototype rather than on the Windows patch.  It'll strengthen your application a lot more.
20090404 22:57:23< corn> ok, thanks for the heads up
20090404 22:59:15< dfranke> corn: oh, and having looked at the wesnothd-locator, I think it's suboptimal and I'm going to improve it.  I'll make it a reusable function that you can call from your code.
20090404 22:59:37< corn> ok
20090404 22:59:44< corn> thanks
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20090404 23:00:10< dfranke> corn: also, name your binary wesnoth-uploader or something, not just uploader.
20090404 23:00:34< corn> ok
20090404 23:02:17< dfranke> bbiab.
20090404 23:02:26< corn> bbiab?
20090404 23:07:11< molgrum> bbiab=be back in a bit
20090404 23:07:51< corn> ah
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20090404 23:11:09< corn> are there any defines set when compiling debug binaries?
20090404 23:13:06< Polarina> N_DEBUG is defined while not debugging.
20090404 23:14:16< corn> ok, thanks
20090404 23:15:01< Polarina> Actually, that is defined when one wants to disable asserts (which is an essential part when debugging).
20090404 23:20:02< corn> when does the $Id tag get generated?
20090404 23:21:07 * Polarina doesn't know anything about the internals of Wesnoth.
20090404 23:21:12< corn> ok
20090404 23:22:29< Crab_> corn: $Id tag in source ?
20090404 23:22:33< corn> yes
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20090404 23:23:21< Crab_> corn: that's standard svn stuff. "Immediately after you commit...,  Subversion will update your working file with the new substitute text." (c) svn handbook
20090404 23:24:44< corn> ah, never did that on my repos
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20090404 23:26:42< Crab_> corn: that kind of properties is mostly useful when you separate your files from your local copy, for example mail them out or print them, or copypaste parts of them.. so you can't be sure about their origin any more. and $Id helps.
20090404 23:27:27< Crab_> corn, http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.4/svn-book.html#svn.advanced.props.special.keywords
20090404 23:31:04< CIA-30> silene * r34499 /trunk/src/gui/dialogs/mp_create_game.cpp: Removed config::get_children.
20090404 23:31:07< CIA-30> silene * r34500 /trunk/src/campaign_server/campaign_server.cpp: Removed config::get_children.
20090404 23:31:12< CIA-30> silene * r34501 /trunk/src/ (ai_dfool.cpp ai_dfool.hpp): Removed config::get_children.
20090404 23:31:15< CIA-30> silene * r34502 /trunk/src/serialization/preprocessor.cpp: Removed config::get_children.
20090404 23:31:19< CIA-30> silene * r34503 /trunk/src/ (3 files in 2 dirs): Removed pointer to config.
20090404 23:31:31< Polarina> silene: Why don't you just make it a single revision?
20090404 23:32:02< ilor> small commits are easier to work with if there's trouble
20090404 23:32:08< silene> Polarina: because they are all independent; if i have ever messed something, it will be easier to find the issue
20090404 23:32:16< Polarina> Ok.
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20090404 23:40:35< Turuk> is it intentional that when a unit with ambush moves that on the turn that it moves into woods it does not go hidden, but will at the beginning of the next turn for that side?
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20090404 23:46:41< CIA-30> fendrin * r34504 /trunk/data/core/macros/unit-utils.cfg: Fixed typo in a comment.
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20090404 23:52:55< Sapient> soo....  any particular reason why silene abolished (config*)NULL in favor of config::invalid and put check_valid() all over the config code?
20090404 23:53:21< Sapient> just curious if he stated any reason before modifying hundreds of files
20090404 23:54:02< Crab_> Sapient: to get rid of pointers...
20090404 23:54:16< Sapient> because...
20090404 23:55:04< Ivanovic> probably because they are more the C way of working where the "new stuff" is the c++ way?
20090404 23:55:10< Ivanovic> (object orientation and all the stuff)
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20090404 23:56:17< Sapient> hmm... probably so that you know the lifetime of all config users
20090404 23:56:18< Crab_> it is a part of a larger plan, I am sure :) to be able to change some internal implementation details later with no one noticing, it is needed to kill some of the bad usages...
20090404 23:56:36< ilor> s/bad/current/
20090404 23:56:41< loonycyborg> Perhaps silene should have used safebool idiom instead :P
20090404 23:58:27< Sapient> and is there no way to check that a config is valid without a try/catch statement?
20090404 23:59:04< Crab_> http://www.mail-archive.com/wesnoth-dev@gna.org/msg03260.html
--- Log closed Sun Apr 05 00:00:11 2009