--- Log opened Wed Apr 08 00:00:39 2009
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20090408 00:09:12-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.6.1 planned for Sunday, April 12th, stringfreeze for branches/1.6 ! | Summer of Code info: http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/SummerOfCodeIdeas | 56 bugs, 234 feature requests, 11 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20090408 00:30:22< CIA-30> dragonking * r34627 /trunk/src/formula_function.cpp: Improved formula if function
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20090408 01:41:19< Sapient> wow, who uses Hungarian notation in pseudocode?
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20090408 01:44:33< voris> haha
20090408 01:44:47< voris> A True Believer.
20090408 01:45:32< Sapient> maybe Reisiger is from Hundary then ;)
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20090408 02:32:50< CIA-30> esr * r34628 /trunk/data/campaigns/Sceptre_of_Fire/scenarios/8_The_Dragon.cfg: 
20090408 02:32:50< CIA-30> Address bug #13343: Sceptre of Fire: Krawg speaks "human".
20090408 02:32:50< CIA-30> The actual probklem was that the moveto event gave a speech generic to any
20090408 02:32:50< CIA-30> unit, but could be triggered by Krawg. Solution: a conditional on unit ID
20090408 02:32:50< CIA-30> in the event and special dialog for Krawg.
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20090408 03:08:52< Sirp> hi
20090408 03:09:12< JW1> hello Sirp
20090408 03:09:55< JW1> Sirp: you are quite familiar with the current Wesnoth AI, correct?
20090408 03:10:04< Sapient> yo Sirp
20090408 03:10:11< Sirp> JW1: until suokko messed it up, at least. :)
20090408 03:11:07< JW1> ah, well I had a thought about its passivity and was wondering if I was on the right track
20090408 03:12:08< JW1> it seems AI allies do not share vision
20090408 03:12:17< Sirp> huh?
20090408 03:12:33< Sapient> you do realize the AI is not fog-aware right?
20090408 03:12:34< JW1> through fog that is - uncovered fog
20090408 03:12:42< JW1> that was my next question
20090408 03:12:49< Sirp> JW1: the AI sees the entire map.
20090408 03:12:50< JW1> well then my thoughts are incorrect :p
20090408 03:14:01< JW1> I was hoping to come to an insight into its current behavior :(
20090408 03:16:00< Sapient> filing an SoC application?
20090408 03:17:43< JW1> hahaha, a little late for that :p
20090408 03:17:49< JW1> perhaps next summer ;)
20090408 03:18:37< noy> Sapient: I wrote a reply on stacked healing
20090408 03:18:54< noy> I'm sorry to say that I disagree with a fix
20090408 03:19:35< Sapient> Noy, you were the "first" MP dev
20090408 03:19:43< noy> hahahahahaha
20090408 03:19:47< Sapient> I just didn't want to name you without your consent
20090408 03:20:03< Sapient> I'll edit my post to insert your name then
20090408 03:20:08< noy> Well its my split personality then, Noy4!
20090408 03:20:20< Rrenys> you number them? :o
20090408 03:20:31< noy> Sapient: I would guess other mp devs would agree
20090408 03:20:49< noy> at least someone like Mythological
20090408 03:21:00< noy> and likely jb
20090408 03:21:20< Sapient> I already know Mytho didn't like the idea too much
20090408 03:21:40< Sapient> But, I think you are totally overlooking the benefits
20090408 03:21:53< noy> Well, I'm a big fan of elegance.
20090408 03:22:03< noy> and simplicity 
20090408 03:22:06< Sapient> turn order handicap is not elegance
20090408 03:22:20< noy> which is why I'm agreeing with you?
20090408 03:22:39< Sapient> the current system makes the turn order too important
20090408 03:22:52< noy> Well, it does for a very small subset of games. 
20090408 03:23:07< noy> which really already operate under their own rules
20090408 03:23:34< Sapient> I'm really surprised to see you putting RPG-style games ahead of 2v2 and 3v3 matchups
20090408 03:23:39< noy> This really won't change much for 2v2s and 3v3. 
20090408 03:24:18< Sapient> even so, maybe you have forgotten the frustration and confusion of moving your healer next to a wounded ally only to acheive nothing
20090408 03:24:26< noy> This just changes when healing is important, which reverses the importance of which turn matters, not that turn order is importance. 
20090408 03:24:40< JW1> hmm
20090408 03:24:46< JW1> how about this...
20090408 03:24:57< noy> yeah, but it would then suck if I went BEFORE my teamate and can't get healing on their turn.
20090408 03:25:06< noy> so really you've just reversed the problem.
20090408 03:25:06< JW1> prepare, because it makes little sense other than to deal with these issues...
20090408 03:25:18< JW1> heal your units at turn start
20090408 03:25:20< noy> JW1: I don't think its going to solve anything.
20090408 03:25:23< JW1> heal ally units at turn end
20090408 03:25:32< noy> unkiss and even more convoluted./
20090408 03:25:43< JW1> yes, but it fixes all the issues, does it not?
20090408 03:25:58< noy> by making it even less clear than before. 
20090408 03:26:04< Sapient> IF you consider disallowing rapid single unit healing a disadvantage, then yes. I consider it a prime feature and bonus of the change
20090408 03:26:18< JW1> yes, but that is the best gameplay solution other than unintuitiveness
20090408 03:26:30< JW1> than its*
20090408 03:26:35< noy> Sapient: you're just reversing the turn order of importance. 
20090408 03:26:43< dfranke> I vote for the status quo.
20090408 03:26:45< noy> This way works. 
20090408 03:26:59< JW1> sapient: would it be possible to code my suggestion?
20090408 03:26:59< Sapient> reversing the turn order importance? howso?
20090408 03:27:26< Sapient> I think you don't understand the proposal
20090408 03:27:38< noy> Because your suggestion makes healers most powerful for earlier players, not later ones. 
20090408 03:28:34< Sapient> no...
20090408 03:28:57< Rrenys> yes
20090408 03:29:01< Sapient> oh, you must be referring to JW's proposal
20090408 03:29:09< noy> yes, as player 1 I move my healer beside player's 2 unit. 
20090408 03:29:22< noy> on player's 2 turn I heal his unit. 
20090408 03:29:35< noy> As player 2 I can't heal player 1's unit till the next turn. 
20090408 03:29:38< Sapient> this is going to get real confusing if we are discussing multiple proposals at once
20090408 03:29:50< noy> Thats your proposal as I read it. 
20090408 03:30:17< Sapient> noy, then clearly you haven't understood it
20090408 03:30:56< noy> Oh, wait, I mixed up a bit. 
20090408 03:31:15< noy> eh
20090408 03:31:49< noy> Still, stacked healing is critical for RPGs, and its not that critical for 2v2s or 3v3s. 
20090408 03:31:57< noy> Its actually pretty low down the list. 
20090408 03:32:03< Sapient> this isn't an arbitrary change; I've given it a lot of thought, actually
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20090408 03:32:24< Sapient> and I'm a bit disappointed that you're so quick to shoot it down without a fair trial, honestly
20090408 03:32:42< noy> Well it doesn't need a "trial"
20090408 03:32:55< noy> Its clear what its effect on RPGs will be
20090408 03:33:02< JW1> from what I understand, allied healers are more beneficial to their allies than themselves
20090408 03:33:06< Sapient> it will play a lot simpler than it reads
20090408 03:33:08< JW1> from your proposal, Sapient
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20090408 03:33:27< noy> I don't need a test to tell me that I won't get 16+ healing on a small map like Labyrinth
20090408 03:33:36< noy> when maps like that are designed for it. 
20090408 03:34:00< noy> Isn't that fair to say Sapient?
20090408 03:34:12< Sapient> ok, if you think 16+ healing on Labyrinth through default Wesnoth mechanics is a "good thing" then our views are fundamentally opposed
20090408 03:34:15< noy> Its not a critical issue in conventional games. 
20090408 03:34:45< Sapient> such WML heavy scenarios can easily introduce potions or alternative healing mechanics
20090408 03:35:03< noy> Sapient: I think a lot of things probably aren't designed in the best way, as would a lot of people. We still live with it because things are now accepted as convention
20090408 03:35:05< Sapient> so it's really a non-issue
20090408 03:36:00< noy> Yeah, then we can have a ton of different rulesets too.
20090408 03:36:30< JW1> may I ask something?
20090408 03:36:33< Sapient> I'll respond to your points when you come up with some ;)
20090408 03:36:40< noy> Or we can just acknowledge the current system isn't the best, not that it has a minimal effect on gameplay and live with it. 
20090408 03:36:53< JW1> what are the current downfalls of the healing system in place we are trying to 'fix'?
20090408 03:37:17< noy> because its not a concern whatsoever for most games and you'd just completely disadvantage the one place where it is used. 
20090408 03:37:33< noy> JW1: what I just said is the reality. 
20090408 03:37:54< JW1> noy: which part - you have said many things
20090408 03:37:56< Sapient> JW1, if by "we" you mean primarily "me" I think I've already mentioned the main two objectives
20090408 03:38:10< noy> JW1: my comment just above the last one
20090408 03:38:21< JW1> Sapient: if you could be so kind as to reiterate them for me please :)
20090408 03:38:24< noy> Most conventional games don't use allied healing. 
20090408 03:38:31< noy> anyway I've got to go
20090408 03:38:33< noy> I'm already late
20090408 03:38:35< JW1> bye noy
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20090408 03:38:55< Sapient> #1 to make allied healing turn-order agnostic (and thus more tactically convenient to activate)
20090408 03:39:20< Sapient> #2 to reduce abusive stacking which violates the Wesnoth philosophy of healing
20090408 03:39:46< JW1> let me ask you this: what do you think of my earlier proposal?
20090408 03:39:51< JW1> heal your units at turn start
20090408 03:39:56< JW1> heal ally units at turn end
20090408 03:40:17 * Sapient ponders this
20090408 03:41:25< Sapient> that doesn't fix point #1
20090408 03:42:04< Sapient> assuming Team A,B,and C are allied against Teams D,E,and F
20090408 03:42:24< JW1> your main point in #1 is the paenthetical I believe
20090408 03:42:26< Sapient> wounded-A moves adjacent to healer-B to recv heal
20090408 03:42:39< Sapient> healer-B moves away to attack D
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20090408 03:42:48< Sapient> no healing is recvd
20090408 03:43:17< JW1> that is true
20090408 03:43:48< Sapient> so from A's perspective, you proposal sucks
20090408 03:43:53< Sapient> :P
20090408 03:44:12< JW1> not necessarily
20090408 03:44:23< JW1> you'd just have to move your unit where B's healer would go
20090408 03:44:23< Sapient> look, I gotta go sorry
20090408 03:44:32< JW1> as you do for your own units now
20090408 03:44:59< JW1> oka
20090408 03:45:01< JW1> y*
20090408 03:45:04< Sapient> JW1: what if D,E, or F moves first and the concept of B getting where you think he would go is thwarted? Or B is acting a fool?
20090408 03:45:14< Sapient> anyways, later
20090408 03:45:20< JW1> I hope we can continue this later
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20090408 03:45:41< JW1> ....and DEF go after B and C in your scenario......
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20090408 06:09:12-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.6.1 planned for Sunday, April 12th, stringfreeze for branches/1.6 ! | Summer of Code info: http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/SummerOfCodeIdeas | 55 bugs, 234 feature requests, 11 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20090408 06:30:21< corn> hm
20090408 06:30:31< corn> I am reading crab's gsoc proposal
20090408 06:30:42< corn> I like the idea that he wants to use the stats display for regression testing on AI
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20090408 06:33:47< corn> can someone elaborate on this bug? I wanna try fixing it https://gna.org/bugs/?13333
20090408 06:34:11< corn> what is the text_input box, and where is the max_chars key
20090408 06:37:12< noy> corn: from reading the description I think its the input box for renaming units
20090408 06:37:35< corn> ingame?
20090408 06:37:54< noy> yeah it seems... let me test
20090408 06:37:58< corn> ok, thanks
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20090408 06:40:38< noy> hmmm I tried it out just on a regular unit
20090408 06:40:42< noy> and it didn't do anything
20090408 06:40:49< corn> no crash?
20090408 06:41:23< corn> I'll post on the bug asking for more info. mordante took it, so it must be valid
20090408 06:42:05< noy> no
20090408 06:42:13< corn> ?
20090408 06:42:15< noy> no crash at all
20090408 06:42:19< corn> ok
20090408 06:44:12< noy> corn: there seems to be a limit in how much you can type and it doesn't allow you to exceed it
20090408 06:44:19< noy> at least on a mac
20090408 06:44:52< corn> yep, that's what I am encountering when trying to 'set team label' on svn build on linux
20090408 06:46:11< corn> all of the fields have length limits EXCEPT set unit name
20090408 06:46:19< corn> and setting it beyond the box size doesn't make the game crash
20090408 06:50:23< noy> corn: tested it on a xp machine and its not there either
20090408 06:50:32< corn> ok, thanks a lot
20090408 06:50:36< corn> I'll be sure to say that in the bug report
20090408 06:52:08< noy> corn: just say that its not clear either
20090408 06:52:20< corn> ok
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20090408 07:25:08< corn> gonna get this fixed tomorrow
20090408 07:25:11< corn> https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?13346
20090408 08:01:19< dfranke> I haven't used svn keywords before... if I'm adding a new file, do I need to do anything except put /* $Id$ */ at the top and svn add / svn commit to get it to take?
20090408 08:02:08< dfranke> or do I need to do something file-specific to get it to expand $Id$?
20090408 08:02:23< corn> I thought it was prepended server-side
20090408 08:02:27< corn> no need to do anything on your end
20090408 08:02:31< corn> I could be completely wrong though
20090408 08:02:35< dfranke> it's expanded server-side.
20090408 08:02:46< dfranke> but I'm not sure if I need to do something to tell it to expand.
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20090408 08:46:44< cjhopman> so, after loading up the first scenario of utbs, my name appears twice in config objects :)
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20090408 08:48:25< cjhopman> silene: good morning
20090408 08:48:39< silene> hi
20090408 08:51:16< silene> dfranke: you have to set a svn property
20090408 08:52:20< silene> namely svn:keywords
20090408 08:54:53< dfranke> Ok, I guess this should do it?: svn propset svn:keywords "Author Date Id Revision" save_blocker.cpp save_blocker.hpp
20090408 08:59:51< silene> yes, and along the way, please set svn:eol-style native
20090408 09:00:18< dfranke> way ahead of you :-)
20090408 09:00:50< CIA-30> dfranke * r34629 /trunk/src/ (9 files): Move save_blocker out of savegame.cpp/hpp and into its own module, per request by jhinrichs
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20090408 09:17:49< dfranke> So, who wants to fix a silly AI bug?
20090408 09:18:15< dfranke> https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?13352
20090408 09:21:03< cjhopman> thats funny
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20090408 09:30:38< ilor> hmm, re https://gna.org/bugs/?13346 isn't that soemthing wmllint is supposed to take care of?
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20090408 09:32:00< silene> dfranke: actually, the bug is elsewhere; the ai is supposed to move away after recruiting when there is an allied leader that could use the keep; but someone has broken it
20090408 09:32:54< dfranke> silene: I can't imagine whom *that* could have been :-)
20090408 09:33:54< dfranke> silene: it's only half broken, though.
20090408 09:33:58< dfranke> silene: A moves away for B.
20090408 09:34:48< silene> oh right
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20090408 09:39:13< euschn> good morning
20090408 09:42:13< cjhopman> hm, after starting utbs, we have ~73000 config objects
20090408 09:45:15< YogiHH> euschn: hi
20090408 09:46:16< YogiHH> euschn: I invalidated some of the wiki information yesterday :-). You should maybe update svn and have a look at the code in savegame.cpp.
20090408 09:47:17< YogiHH> cjhopman: ouch
20090408 09:47:41< silene> cjhopman: could you give try on a dumb mp map, so that we have the base number?
20090408 09:49:20< dfranke> YogiHH: btw, I moved the save_blocker code as you asked.
20090408 09:49:29< dfranke> YogiHH: made the commit a few minutes before you joined the channel.
20090408 09:51:12< YogiHH> dfranke: nice, thanks
20090408 09:52:46< euschn> YogiHH: ok, I will have a look
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20090408 09:54:42< cjhopman> on clash, 50000
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20090408 09:56:47< Reisiger> Good morning :)
20090408 09:57:01< YogiHH> good morning Reisiger
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20090408 09:58:02< cjhopman> time for me to go sleep though, later
20090408 09:58:59< Reisiger> Sapient's proposal to change healing seems to stirr up some commotion :D
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20090408 10:05:06< noy> Reisiger: not really
20090408 10:07:50< Reisiger> noy: I don't get why people are opposed to it, as it (AFAIK) would increase the number of times a unit can get healed
20090408 10:08:27< noy> because it would limit stack healing, which is a critical component of many rpgs
20090408 10:08:42< noy> ie more than 8 hp per turn
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20090408 10:09:30< Reisiger> There is no 'stacking'. Each unit gets healed up to the highest amount a healer can heal of all healers next to it.
20090408 10:10:08< noy> no, it caps healing to 10 total per an entire turn. 
20090408 10:10:44< noy> stack healing allows you to go much more than ten provided there are healers from different sides adjacent to a unit
20090408 10:11:06< Reisiger> No. The algorithm picks the highest healing 'bonus' of all healers next to the unit and applies that. Rest-healing can add +2 HP ontop of that
20090408 10:11:21< silene> we decided against stack healing five years ago; i haven't quite followed, did something change in this respect?
20090408 10:11:58< Reisiger> Not at all... I don't know why people think it still works...
20090408 10:12:09< noy> You're not getting it. Stack healing means if an ally is sitting besides you, on his turn your unit gets healed. If there are several different allied sides with healers around, the total value can far exceed 10
20090408 10:12:11< YogiHH> silene: a healer will heal all adjacent units from his own team or an allied team
20090408 10:12:13< Reisiger> since stack healing was removed in March 2006
20090408 10:12:26< silene> YogiHH: yes, that i know
20090408 10:12:46< Reisiger> noy: that's not stack healing
20090408 10:12:46< noy> Sapient's proposal would kill that, which is the problem.
20090408 10:13:05< noy> Thats what we've been calling it for ages on MP
20090408 10:13:10< Reisiger> stack healing is  i.e. 4 healers slapping each +4 HP on the same unit at the start of a turn
20090408 10:13:17< noy> so I really not in the mood to hear what your definition is
20090408 10:13:28< noy> I'm*
20090408 10:13:43< Reisiger> That would explain why there's so much confusion on that topic
20090408 10:13:50< noy> Not really
20090408 10:14:06< noy> Sapient knows why we've got a problem with it.
20090408 10:14:41< YogiHH> noy: Maybe you should try to understand other peoples definitions, because else you won't be able to communicate effectively
20090408 10:15:25< YogiHH> s/effectively/efficiently
20090408 10:15:33< noy> He thinks it should be more "elegant" using a kiss formulation, while I and other devs  point out this system has already been accepted and campaigns designed around 
20090408 10:15:53< Reisiger> If 'stack healing' is used as a description for planning strategic healing, then we'd need a new term for the 'other' stack healing. And as far as I understood Sapient's proposal, it will improve stack healing' not remove it.
20090408 10:15:53< noy> YogiHH: I don't think this is a problem in this case given sapient and I understand each other's points. 
20090408 10:17:27< noy> Ugh, for the last time, capping the total HP per game turn (all the sides, not one sides' turn) would make a mess of several MP campaigns, slowing them down significantly. 
20090408 10:17:41< noy> It has very little utility for most conventional MP games. 
20090408 10:18:05< noy> none whatsoever for 1v1s, almost none for 2v2s, and little for 3v3s. 
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20090408 10:18:49< noy> While becoming an total inconvenience for the games that actually use this type of healing. 
20090408 10:18:54< noy> IE RPGs.
20090408 10:19:12< noy> Why do you think the most prolific MP rpg creator is against this?
20090408 10:19:16< silene> noy: let's try another way, is that a bug or not? is that your definition of stacking or not? https://gna.org/bugs/?13342
20090408 10:19:47< noy> This isn't a bug. 
20090408 10:20:04< silene> okay, then i will close it
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20090408 10:22:35< Ivanovic> moin
20090408 10:22:43< noy> morning
20090408 10:22:44< Reisiger> noy: it seems my interpretation of Sapient's proposal differs from yours. THe only change I see to the current system would be that allied healers won't only heal your units at the start of your turn, but also at the start of their own side's turn.
20090408 10:23:09< noy> Reisiger: This is the exact text; however, with the maximum healing any unit can receive over the entire round being the maximum healing received from any one source, or 0 if the unit is poisoned or cured of poison during that round.
20090408 10:23:27< noy> Meaning it never can go above 10 TOTAL per the entire game turn. 
20090408 10:23:28< Reisiger> noy: With that change, you'd no longer have to 'time' the allied healer's position
20090408 10:24:03< Reisiger> I haven't been working with that presumption.
20090408 10:24:12< noy> Well thats the most critical one. 
20090408 10:24:30< noy> because all the other ones can't work without this. 
20090408 10:24:48< noy> otherwise you could cheat very easily. 
20090408 10:26:04< noy> otherwise it would be possible to double heal, or it would waste healing per turn (if a unit was poisoned)
20090408 10:28:22< noy> YogiHH: for your sanity we'll call what I've been describing "multiturn stack healing." does that clear it up?
20090408 10:32:11< silene> i would even prefer "multiturn unlimited stack healing" ;-)
20090408 10:34:58< YogiHH> noy: I am actually pretty indifferent what you call it and i didn't intend to take part in the discussion at all. I just think that if you talk with others about it, you should make sure you are talking about the same thing. And that has understanding the other's point of view as a prerequisite.
20090408 10:36:31< YogiHH> noy: and yes, "multiturn stack healing" is a good term :-)
20090408 10:37:40< silene> anyway, this discussion at least made it possible to close a developer-confirmed severe bug report after a few minutes; it isn't that bad a result
20090408 10:37:50< noy> YogiHH: basically, this is how its called by the people using it. I don't think the onus is on me to know what someone who is probably coming into this area for the first time is calling it. 
20090408 10:39:10< silene> noy: you seem to forget that wesnoth has source files, with comments in them, with named variables in them; just because you give it a particular doesn't mean that this is the name the coders will encounter
20090408 10:39:52-!- silene [n=plouf@wesnoth/developer/silene] has quit ["Leaving."]
20090408 10:41:00< noy> well I guess I don't have to reply to that. 
20090408 10:41:16< YogiHH> noy: It depends on what you want. If you want to convince someone or at least present your point (and you want him to understand) "someone" needs to make sure you are using the same terms to be understood right. As you have most likely a bigger picture of the topic, this will be much easier for you.
20090408 10:41:39-!- ilor [n=user@wesnoth/developer/ilor] has quit []
20090408 10:43:08< noy> YogiHH: Right. My problem with this entire "fix" is that it actually makes things more difficult for MP map designers, with little positive benefit for anybody else. It makes things difficult for the people its intended to help. 
20090408 10:44:29< Reisiger> noy,YogiHH: I've encountered both definitions about 'stack healing' prior to having a go on the pseudo-code (from the forum and from a revision log from 2006). Since I picked the wrong definition to work with, I seem to have missed Sapient's point in the changes he proposes :-/
20090408 10:52:26< esr> Evertybody. read the ML please, I've just proposed a significant syntax change in WML.
20090408 10:55:24< noy> Reisiger: no worries, I'm probably a bit testy about this given that people have been telling me I don't get it, when I do. 
20090408 10:55:55< noy> and its pretty clear to me and others what the effects of this will be. 
20090408 11:01:01-!- zookeeper [n=l@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090408 11:02:58< esr> zookeeper: Read ML please, I just proposed a significant change to WML syntax.
20090408 11:06:37 * zookeeper reads
20090408 11:07:36< noy> I'm out
20090408 11:07:39< noy> later people
20090408 11:07:41-!- noy [n=Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit ["GO, GET TO THE CHOPPAH!!!"]
20090408 11:08:31< zookeeper> esr, ok, so why won't formula expressions do the job? x=$(23-1) or whatever the exact syntax is
20090408 11:08:43< zookeeper> maybe you've missed that one
20090408 11:09:39< esr> I guess so.  You mean I can write $({X}-1) and the right thing will happen after macroexpansion?
20090408 11:10:17< YogiHH> esr: I can't tell much about the proposal itself as i am not deep enough into WML, but i am strongly opposed to the compatibility hack. There are corner cases where you won't be able to evaluate which interpretation is desired.
20090408 11:11:14< esr> YogiHH: You are probably right.
20090408 11:11:37< zookeeper> esr, i suppose.
20090408 11:11:38-!- faryshta [n=faryshta@189.240.7.108] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090408 11:11:38< esr> I felt unclean writing that part of the proposal.
20090408 11:11:57< dfranke> esr: I felt unclean reading it.
20090408 11:12:40< esr> zookeeper: Where is this formula syntax and its scope documented?
20090408 11:13:14< zookeeper> at least in http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/SyntaxWML
20090408 11:13:22< zookeeper> ($(formula-expression))
20090408 11:27:09< Ivanovic> @SoC Students: just to make sure that you are aware of this: there is *NO* automatic subscription to comments on your proposal
20090408 11:27:31< Ivanovic> to get notifications you have to click the "subscribe to comments" button at the top
20090408 11:27:39< Ivanovic> (or just check the stuff regulary)
20090408 11:28:04< Ivanovic> by now every application has at least one public comment, several have >1 comment
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20090408 12:00:51< euschn> YogiHH: I had a look at savegame.hpp/cpp: Do I understand correctly that one of its purposes is to replace config_adapter? Does this promote the more layered approach of savegame organization?
20090408 12:01:56< euschn> the wiki information on gamestatus and its members has not changed, though? savegame uses those existing methods such as write_game
20090408 12:02:43< esr> zookeeper: It's not clear that syntax is supported outside the specific context of AI formulas.  If it is, it would fill my functional requirements.
20090408 12:04:51< YogiHH> euschn: savegame.cpp is not meant to replace config_adapter. From what i have in mind at the moment config_adapter will be incorporated into other C++ objects, such as game_state or team
20090408 12:05:52< YogiHH> euschn: The idea of savegame.cpp is rather to provide a single interface for saving and loading games, that was formerly distributed upon gamestatus.cpp, replay.cpp, menu_events.cpp and a couple of others.
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20090408 12:06:31< YogiHH> euschn: It is sort of a preparation for the GSoC project to make some things a little easier.
20090408 12:08:27< YogiHH> euschn: some methods that are not related to savegame content but rather savegame managing (like finish_save_game) have been moved to the savegame class. write_game will be moved there soon as well (it did so on my laptop already ;-) )
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20090408 12:09:12-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.6.1 planned for Sunday, April 12th, stringfreeze for branches/1.6 ! | Summer of Code info: http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/SummerOfCodeIdeas | 54 bugs, 234 feature requests, 11 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20090408 12:09:53< euschn> YogiHH: I see - I thought the argument similarity between config_adapter::get_player_info and the game_savegame constructor implied you wanted to replace config_adapter
20090408 12:10:33< euschn> YogiHH: ok, moving over write_game makes it clearer of course
20090408 12:11:45< YogiHH> euschn: actually, write_game deals with contents a lot, maybe it will leave savegame.cpp at some point. But for the moment, i think it is best to have it there.
20090408 12:13:31< YogiHH> off for lunch
20090408 12:13:38< euschn> YogiHH: I see - thanks for the info
20090408 12:17:27< Newell> I read on the site that you're looking for writers. I checked out the forum but there doesn't seem to be a sub-forum to go to. Any ideas, anybody?
20090408 12:17:44< Ivanovic> Newell: just ping esr till he reacts
20090408 12:17:46< Ivanovic> ^^
20090408 12:17:53< Ivanovic> (though he is most likely deep asleep atm)
20090408 12:18:03< Newell> haha okay
20090408 12:18:04< Newell> ta
20090408 12:18:46< CIA-30> ivanovic * r34630 /trunk/po/wesnoth-tutorial/nb_NO.po: updated Norwegian translation
20090408 12:18:49< CIA-30> ivanovic * r34631 /branches/1.6/po/wesnoth-tutorial/nb_NO.po: updated Norwegian translation
20090408 12:20:25< esr> Ivanovic: OK, now I have two <s>serfs</s> would-be writers.  Maybe we need a writer's forum so they can coordinate.
20090408 12:26:19< Ivanovic> and now you want *me* to create such a forum?!?
20090408 12:27:36< Ivanovic> that is without knowing a forum totle, a description text for it and where to put it?
20090408 12:28:07< Ivanovic> s/totle/title
20090408 12:28:32< esr> Ivanovic: Tell me the correct pricedure and who the person with the magic capabilities is, then.
20090408 12:29:09< Ivanovic> i can do this stuff when i know the title for this forum, the description text and where exactly to put it...
20090408 12:29:36< loonycyborg> esr: Shadow_Master currently maintains the forum.
20090408 12:30:36< esr> Ivanovic: Should I go to ShadowMaster?
20090408 12:30:48< Ivanovic> esr: just give me the information needed and i can add it
20090408 12:31:44< Ivanovic> just have a look at http://www.wesnoth.org/forum and you will easily see what is needed (a name for this new subforum, a tiny text do describe the purpose and it would be nice to know the position where it should be put in the list of existing subforums)
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20090408 12:37:45< esr> Ivanovic: Title = "Writers' Forum", location under "BfW - Development (open)",  Descriptive text = "For writers working on documentation, story prose, announcements, and all kinds of Wesnoth text"
20090408 12:38:04< Ivanovic> re location: which position there?
20090408 12:38:16< Ivanovic> below artwork, above, alphabetical sorting, ... ?
20090408 12:38:20< esr> Don't care much.  Looking...
20090408 12:39:18< esr> Logical spot looks to be right after the Music forum and right before Translations.
20090408 12:39:59< Ivanovic> in general a new sorting might make sense
20090408 12:40:07< Ivanovic> currently this area is a little, hmm, strange
20090408 12:40:29< esr> However you like, I don't care about that aspect of the location much.
20090408 12:44:33< esr> That's weird.  It looks like the recruit list of the player's side is saved and overrides [side] declarations.
20090408 12:51:08< YogiHH> esr: that's quite possible, there have been some changes regarding the [player] location
20090408 12:51:50< YogiHH> esr: there is no [player]-section in the root level anymore
20090408 12:52:25< Ivanovic> esr: do you think this is fine now?
20090408 12:53:01< esr> I don't mind the recall liust from previous scenarios being persistent (it's good, acttually, for DM) but an explicit declaration in SiseWML should overwrite the saved version.
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20090408 12:53:26< esr> s/SiseWML/SideWML/
20090408 12:53:36< esr> Ivanovic: Looking...
20090408 12:54:45< esr> Ivanovic: Looks fine but I need privs to read and write it.
20090408 12:55:13< Ivanovic> uhm, i think you can already post there
20090408 12:55:41< CIA-30> ivanovic * r34632 /branches/1.6/ (258 files in 10 dirs): 
20090408 12:55:41< CIA-30> pot-update (hopefully no new/changed strings...)
20090408 12:55:41< CIA-30> regenerated doc files (all the manuals are working again!)
20090408 12:56:04< Ivanovic> esr: check if everything works now
20090408 12:56:41< esr> It said I couldn't read, so I didn't try posting.  I'll check.
20090408 12:58:53< esr> Looks like Turuk transplanted an existing thread in there during the last few minutes - it has 16 posts now. 
20090408 12:59:07< esr> I can read it.
20090408 12:59:12< Ivanovic> http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=32
20090408 12:59:22< Ivanovic> uhm, what you see in there are the global announcements
20090408 12:59:33< Ivanovic> those were there already before and are *not* forum specific
20090408 13:00:01< esr> OK.
20090408 13:00:27< esr> Poiunt is I can read it now.
20090408 13:00:38< Ivanovic> good
20090408 13:01:43< esr> zookeeper: You pointed me at a thread about improving the manual.  Can a moderator transplant that thread to the Writers Forum'?
20090408 13:04:21< Elvish_Pillager> esr: where is it? I could move it
20090408 13:04:50< esr> zookeeper gav me an URL but I don't have it handy.
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20090408 13:15:22< esr> Ivanovic: Have verified that I can post; all looks OK, I'll direct my two newbie writers to it.
20090408 13:15:41 * esr is bemused that he has a department now.
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20090408 13:18:43< Elvish_Pillager> esr: so the forum's not for UMC prose?
20090408 13:19:22< esr> Hmm, I suppose wee could include that.
20090408 13:23:00-!- Polarina [n=polarina@wesnoth/translator/Polarina] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20090408 13:48:54< Turuk> esr: ? I have not done anything for the past 9 hours
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20090408 13:49:44< esr> Turuk: Ivanovic explained that certain announcements get spliced in automatically.
20090408 13:50:07-!- faryshta [n=faryshta@189.240.7.108] has quit ["Saliendo"]
20090408 13:51:07< Gnutoo> hi, I've wesnoth that crashes...I don't think it's related to the boost function that I wrote in assembly because I've put breakpoints on operator++ and operator-- while debuging(b operator++,b operator++(),b operator--,b operator--()) gdb says :
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20090408 13:53:10< Turuk> esr: but I can move the improving the manual thread to the writer's forum for you
20090408 13:53:21-!- Sapient [n=patrickp@wesnoth/developer/sapient] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090408 13:53:25< Gnutoo> Program terminated with signal SIGKILL, Killed. && The program no longer exists.
20090408 13:53:34< Gnutoo> how can I debug that?
20090408 13:53:42< esr> Thanks, I've forgotten where it is.  If you know, by all means do so.
20090408 13:53:48< Sapient> esr: you do realize that WML already supports mathematical expression in arbitrary tags?
20090408 13:54:29-!- henning__ [n=henning@ini-firewall.unizh.ch] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090408 13:54:30< Sapient> e.g. x=$( {X} + 1 )
20090408 13:54:41< esr> Sapient: zookeeper pointed me at $(), but I thought that only workd in AI formulas and the docs don't suggest otherwise.
20090408 13:54:53< Ivanovic> henning__: just saw your reply
20090408 13:54:55< Sapient> check your changelog
20090408 13:55:06< Sapient> it is also documented on wiki/SyntaxWML
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20090408 13:55:20< esr> Looking...
20090408 13:55:23< Ivanovic> henning__: looking at your timeline it is just that i don't see much room for problems that can (and likely will) come up at implementation time
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20090408 13:56:14< Ivanovic> that is the part "6-19 Jul: Integrate algorithm into code base. " is likely to take longer due to problems with the existing codebase (yeah, it is likely that you will have to face some in those two weeks)
20090408 13:56:30< Ivanovic> another problem is the evaluation of ai vs ai games
20090408 13:56:42< Ivanovic> how to decide which moves were "good" and which ones were not?
20090408 13:57:19< Ivanovic> assuming that the ai is not too good when it comes to movement (it really is not, you can easily make it come onto weak terrains)
20090408 13:57:47< esr> Sapient: Ah, OK, one of those bullet points conveys the information thatb$() is supported elsewhere - the formula AI page itself is kind of misleading that way.  I think I have something to add to my list of tasks for writers.
20090408 13:59:59< Sapient> I would respond to the dev-ml, but it tends to block me
20090408 14:01:01< Sapient> anyways, I would prefer if you use pure WML for core macros
20090408 14:01:34< Sapient> I plan to keep support for a -DDISABLE_LUA option
20090408 14:02:17< esr> Sapient: I agree with that choice, at least until lua is much further into the core.
20090408 14:03:11< Gnutoo> message before the segmentation fault: http://rafb.net/p/tZ0F1k38.html
20090408 14:03:20< Gnutoo> maybe I should wait for mordante
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20090408 14:05:09< Ivanovic> henning__: in general i don't know if your timeline really can work out this way if you encounter some problems
20090408 14:05:38< Ivanovic> that is: finding a well working algorithm itself is quite some work, then extending it and still make it be "good" ain't trival
20090408 14:05:42< Shadow_Master> esr: I maintain the forum software, not its social organization
20090408 14:05:47< Shadow_Master> loonycyborg: ditto.
20090408 14:06:13< henning__> Ivanovic: i completely agree about 2 weeks being rather short for the code integration. ideally, i would start working on that in parallel to phase 1. 
20090408 14:06:15< Ivanovic> then seeing "Implement algorithm in C++ " is not saying much
20090408 14:06:17< esr> Shadow_Master: Noted.
20090408 14:06:39< fabi> Would someone join a little lua test project? I thougt about a scenario speech database.
20090408 14:06:52< Ivanovic> sure, if there is a perfect algorithm it is possible to nicely wire it into code
20090408 14:07:27< Ivanovic> though i see problems there when it comes to relying on the database of possible moves
20090408 14:07:30< henning__> i have tried to factor in problems by allowing for less stringent date descriptions towards the end of the timeline. it's hard to foresee things that might come up at this point. 
20090408 14:07:34< Ivanovic> how will this be used?
20090408 14:07:45< Shadow_Master> esr: where's the discussion about the creation of the "writers' forum"? ML?
20090408 14:07:50< Ivanovic> will it be a "general basis" that then is hardcoded?
20090408 14:08:05< Ivanovic> will it be a "real database" where for specific situations "good moves" are looked up?
20090408 14:08:31< Ivanovic> henning__: yeah, it is always difficult to get a timeline done
20090408 14:08:47< esr> Shadow_Master: On IRC about 20 minutes ago. It's already created by Ivanovic; I'm making a tasks sticky nopw.
20090408 14:09:03< Ivanovic> beside this the points "Benchmark algorithm" and "Write report"
20090408 14:09:07< Ivanovic> what do they really mean?
20090408 14:09:25< henning__> the way i envisage it at the moment, this project is concerned with position evaluation - not move prediction or generation
20090408 14:09:45< Ivanovic> since benchmarking can be some kind of comparision between old ai movement vs new ai movement regarding "cpu time used" as well as "does it make better decissions?"
20090408 14:10:51< Shadow_Master> esr: 20 minutes ago. wow. yeah. I see it's been already created.
20090408 14:11:31< Shadow_Master> 20 minutes ago is a call for the same sort of fail that I created when I decided to upgrade the forums in less than a day ;)
20090408 14:12:03< Ivanovic> henning__: okay
20090408 14:12:24< Shadow_Master> Ivanovic: why did you change the neat order of the open dev. forums? :(
20090408 14:12:31< esr> Shadow_Master: Well, I've got two newbie wrtiters who asked for such a thing, and it seemed like a good idea.
20090408 14:12:33< henning__> the benchmark for position evaluation is, how well can my algorithm predict who is going to win the game. it should not matter too much if there are AIs or human playing each other. 
20090408 14:12:40< Shadow_Master> Now scenario and campaign dev. isn't at the middle 
20090408 14:12:41< Ivanovic> henning__: so the project is about creating a better weighting for fields units can be moved to
20090408 14:13:24< Ivanovic> Shadow_Master: i changed it to have the order make "more sense"
20090408 14:13:35< Ivanovic> as in "stuff that later on things rely on is at the top"
20090408 14:13:56< Ivanovic> (as in artwork/sounds/texts will be used in "content")
20090408 14:14:34< Shadow_Master> :.(
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20090408 14:15:03< Ivanovic> henning__: as you see from my cluelessness it might be nice to state a little more detailed what the single parts are about
20090408 14:15:36< Ivanovic> and yeah, we know that plans are likely to change over time, it just makes sense to have a good idea of what has to be done (and what should be done) before starting
20090408 14:18:42< Ivanovic> afk for a while
20090408 14:18:50< henning__> i'll add some more info on the wiki. will comment on the project page when I am done.
20090408 14:19:05< Ivanovic> henning__: perfect
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20090408 14:20:49< Crab_> hi
20090408 14:21:14< YogiHH> hi Crab_
20090408 14:30:01< esr> Ivanovic: Writer's forum is off to a fine start, one of my newbies has already checked in and picked an item off the task list.
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20090408 15:07:38< Ivanovic> esr: great
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20090408 15:28:21< happygrue> esr: it seems you already have someone excited about working on the manual? 
20090408 15:28:46< esr> happygrue: Indeed.
20090408 15:29:06< happygrue> excellent.  I have thought for some time now "gee, I should improve the manual", but I never got to it.
20090408 15:29:23< happygrue> much stuff to improve there
20090408 15:29:40< esr> Now I hope I can get somebody else top document $() syntax in general tags.  I still need to concentyrate on DM.
20090408 15:29:59< Ivanovic> there might be some stuff reusable in the "ManualSuggestions": http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/ManualSuggestions
20090408 15:32:40< happygrue> I agree that the manual could include much more reference material.  It is unfortunate that currently the manual and in game help must BOTH be used by new players.  There really isn't a one-stop-shop to read about everything currently.
20090408 15:33:10< esr> Ivanovic: I've added that URL to the task list.
20090408 15:34:33< Ivanovic> make sure to mention that those are only *suggestions* and some of them are clearly overkill and should not be implemented
20090408 15:34:44< Ivanovic> someone will just have to check if there is something usable in there
20090408 15:35:26< esr> As a general thing, I'm hoping I can offload the technical writing onto new volunteers so I can concentrate on storyline prose.  I can do technical writing, but so can lots of other people - the project benefits more, and I have more fun, when I use sklills that are more difficult to duplicate.
20090408 15:36:05< esr> Ivanovic: Noted.
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20090408 15:44:32< CIA-30> ivanovic * r34633 /trunk/doc/ (13 files in 5 dirs): regenerate (repair ;) ) doc files for trunk, too
20090408 15:47:00< happygrue> esr: just FYI I am interested in manual issues, so if Simons Mith has questions, especially about multiplayer stuff, I would be happy to help as needed.
20090408 15:47:34< esr> happygrue: Offer him help on the forum, please.
20090408 15:47:44< happygrue> ok, will do
20090408 15:48:10< Ivanovic> when doing the manual stuff do not forget that this is not meant to be some "everything about wesnoth" document, but a "game manual" as you would get it in a normal game, too
20090408 15:48:36< Ivanovic> so don't put 50 pages of strategy guides in there or all the race descriptions and whatever
20090408 15:49:28< Ivanovic> the best thing to do there is create a "real" manual like thing describing the UI and stuff
20090408 15:50:04< happygrue> Ivanovic: very true.  There might be a translator uprising at such a beast ;)
20090408 15:50:17< Ivanovic> jupp
20090408 15:50:34< Ivanovic> especially because it is not required since all this stuff is available in the ingame help
20090408 15:51:24< Ivanovic> and yes, it is completely fine to reference the "ingame help" for further information about gameplay mechanics and a "really complete" list of traits, abilities and whatever
20090408 15:52:36< happygrue> Ivanovic: that is what is lacking I think, since new users might not know what they are missing until they stumble upon the right place in the in-game help or figure it out for themselves
20090408 15:53:17< Ivanovic> happygrue: so the perfect thing to do would be to say *where* in the ingame help this stuff can be found
20090408 15:53:24< happygrue> sure
20090408 15:53:40< happygrue> that makes sense
20090408 15:53:41< Ivanovic> since in general the ingame help will more likely be up to date than the manual when it comes to effects due to abilities and all this stuff
20090408 15:55:33< esr> Ivanovic: I'm a big fan of not having duplicative documentation.  Almost always, one version is wrong.
20090408 15:56:26< Ivanovic> esr: exactly
20090408 15:57:18< Ivanovic> esr: that is why i think that in the manual we should explain the interface (eg: 7) here the abilities of the unit are listed. abilities change some stuff about the units. which ones are possible can be read in the ingame help under game mechanics -> abilities
20090408 15:57:44< esr> Yes.
20090408 15:57:45< Ivanovic> so basically saying what a user sees there and redirecting to the up to date ingame list for details
20090408 16:11:43-!- mjs-de [n=mjs-de@vpw.wh.uni-dortmund.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090408 16:15:58 * esr is going to sleep
20090408 16:20:45-!- fendrin [n=fabi@wesnoth/developer/fendrin] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090408 16:22:54< fendrin> hi
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20090408 17:27:01< crimson_penguin> is the MP server down?
20090408 17:27:59-!- busfahrer [n=busfahre@unixboard/user/busfahrer] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090408 17:29:32< Turuk> crimson_penguin: yes it is
20090408 17:29:45-!- cjhopman [n=chris@wesnoth/developer/cjhopman] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090408 17:30:13< crimson_penguin> oh well
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20090408 18:09:12-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.6.1 planned for Sunday, April 12th, stringfreeze for branches/1.6 ! | Summer of Code info: http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/SummerOfCodeIdeas | 54 bugs, 233 feature requests, 11 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20090408 18:21:39< Ivanovic> Soliton: is the manpages entry for the replay dir stuff correct?
20090408 18:21:47< Ivanovic> The directory where the server stores game replays. (Don't forget the trailing /!) Defaults to `' which
20090408 18:21:48< Ivanovic>               means the directory wesnothd was started in.
20090408 18:22:00< Ivanovic> this sounds strange to me (the "Detaults to" part)
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20090408 18:31:09< CIA-30> ivanovic * r34635 /branches/1.6/po/ (wesnoth/pl.po wesnoth-manpages/pl.po): updated Polish translation
20090408 18:31:20< CIA-30> ivanovic * r34634 /trunk/po/ (wesnoth/pl.po wesnoth-manpages/pl.po): updated Polish translation
20090408 18:38:36< cjhopman_> i've done some profiling and made some estimates for my string sharing proposal http://wesnoth.org/wiki/Cjhopman_wml
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20090408 18:38:50< YogiHH> hello everyone
20090408 18:38:56< cjhopman_> hey YogiHH
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20090408 18:39:31< YogiHH> can someone please explain to me what is a preproc_define and what it is needed for? Plan and simple words, if possible ;-)
20090408 18:39:44< YogiHH> s/Plan/plain
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20090408 18:41:42< Sapient> silene could explain it.... I might be able to if I had my other laptop right now
20090408 18:44:47< CIA-30> jhinrichs * r34636 /trunk/src/ (gamestatus.cpp gamestatus.hpp savegame.cpp savegame.hpp): 
20090408 18:44:47< CIA-30> Savegame reorganization Step 1: Providing a simpler interface to saving and loading.
20090408 18:44:47< CIA-30> Move write_game to savegame.cpp.
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20090408 19:06:48< noy> Ivanovic: care to help me with this freeware magazine questionnaire?
20090408 19:06:52< noy> or anyone?
20090408 19:07:09< Ivanovic> just ask the questions in here and we will gather some interesting questions
20090408 19:07:11< Ivanovic> ;)
20090408 19:07:26< noy> Well the first one is You can tell a short story of "Battle for Wesnoth"?
20090408 19:07:47< Ivanovic> uhm, for prose we got esr
20090408 19:07:48< noy> which I think means "can you tell a short story about wesnoth's origins?"
20090408 19:07:54< Ivanovic> though he just went to bed some hours ago...
20090408 19:07:56< Ivanovic> ;)
20090408 19:08:06< noy> Ivanovic: given I'm a published author I think I can handle it. 
20090408 19:08:15< noy> possibly, not sure. 
20090408 19:08:19< Ivanovic> noy: fiction?
20090408 19:08:21< Ivanovic> ;)
20090408 19:08:35< noy> Heh, well maybe to conspiracy theorists. 
20090408 19:09:04< noy> Ivanovic: no thats what the person asked. 
20090408 19:09:07< noy> not me. 
20090408 19:09:25< noy> Spring 2003 Dave started this project?
20090408 19:09:36< Ivanovic> yeah, i think so
20090408 19:10:11< noy> Was GPL the original basis?
20090408 19:10:26< noy> like it was always organized along those lines?
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20090408 19:10:38< Ivanovic> i think so, yeah
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20090408 19:11:43< noy> When was MP server installed?
20090408 19:11:53< noy> 2004ish?
20090408 19:12:07< Ivanovic> yes, something around 0.7.something
20090408 19:12:32< noy> I'm thinking of just major milestones. 
20090408 19:12:38< edb> there is previous interwiew already done where I guess you can pick up the wesnoth history, there isn't ?
20090408 19:12:48< Ivanovic> but 2004 should be reasonable enough
20090408 19:13:12< noy> edb: yeah its not helpful when basically we copy and paste something from the website
20090408 19:13:14< edb> if I remeber well some were post on ml
20090408 19:13:39< edb> but it's a better start :o)
20090408 19:13:40< noy> This is basically our main form of advertisement. 
20090408 19:14:24< noy> and I'd also like to do it for myself
20090408 19:15:13< Shadow_Master> does this mean that I'll eventually be able to take a local newspaper with an article about wesnoth and say "hey, I'm one of their devs!" :P
20090408 19:15:16< edb> I wasn't think on copy and paste but as a when to but sure about date ans other fact
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20090408 19:15:27< noy> Shadow_Master: thats right
20090408 19:15:30< noy> we're going huge
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20090408 19:16:47< edb> Remember, I was one of your dev. Please I want part of the glory :o)
20090408 19:17:22< noy> nothing on the website
20090408 19:18:36< edb> noy, I was joking, I made some small stuff, I'm just recorded as Contributor
20090408 19:18:56< noy> oh I was looking for information on the website
20090408 19:18:59< noy> thats what I meant
20090408 19:19:03< edb> oups
20090408 19:19:11< edb> I look like sellfish now :o)
20090408 19:19:19< noy> going to the ML
20090408 19:19:33< noy> Man I see why Dave wants me to do this; its not easy.
20090408 19:20:40< Ivanovic> :)
20090408 19:20:46-!- |Andylee| [n=kvirc@188-23-110-70.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090408 19:20:48< |Andylee|> hi
20090408 19:22:08< noy> and its not there either
20090408 19:22:10< noy> hello
20090408 19:22:22< Ivanovic> Sapient: what do you think of sunday 8pm gmt+2 meeting for "final" ranking of SoC students?
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20090408 19:27:17< |Andylee|> are there already plans what will be done for 1.7? (if i am allowed to ask)
20090408 19:27:47< noy> |Andylee|: well there aren't really plans for anything specific persay. 
20090408 19:27:56< YogiHH> afk for a while
20090408 19:28:35< |Andylee|> i asked myself this question because I wasn't able to figure out where the game still had something to improve... except online playing.
20090408 19:28:52< noy> thats not really the nature of the development project. Its run by people who establish aims under their own initiative.
20090408 19:29:39< noy> What do you think needs improvement?
20090408 19:33:18< Gnutoo> hi, I've a segmentation fault: http://rafb.net/p/J2JsOA56.html
20090408 19:33:28< Gnutoo> is it me or is it wesnoth?
20090408 19:33:41< Gnutoo> (I modified things in boost for making it cross-compile )
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20090408 19:35:13< mordante> hi
20090408 19:35:36< Gnutoo> mordante, hi...I've again a problem...I've a segmentation fault and I don't know if it's my boost modifications or wesnoth or my platform
20090408 19:35:40< Gnutoo> http://rafb.net/p/J2JsOA56.html
20090408 19:35:49< mordante> hi Gnutoo 
20090408 19:36:06< Gnutoo> I'm trying to make gdb work(it doesn't work)
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20090408 19:37:44< mordante> :-( That would be my next question
20090408 19:38:27< Gnutoo> here's gdb: http://rafb.net/p/yTTMV413.html
20090408 19:38:33< mordante> using power pc?
20090408 19:39:32< Gnutoo> no arm
20090408 19:39:41< Shadow_Master> Ivanovic: what would be more or less a perfect time of the year for taking down the forums?
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20090408 19:39:51< mordante> yeah I saw it in the backtrace
20090408 19:39:59< Ivanovic> Shadow_Master: the summer
20090408 19:40:01< noy> late summer?
20090408 19:40:08< Ivanovic> summer in the northern hemisphere
20090408 19:40:09< noy> like august?
20090408 19:40:26< Shadow_Master> Ivanovic: are you sure?
20090408 19:40:30< Ivanovic> i'd go for middle of july if we want to get 1.8 out in october already
20090408 19:40:35< Gnutoo> openmoko freerunner(armv4) (I've also anther device armv6 but wesnoth only works via ssh -Y because it has a 320x240 screen and there are assert that prevent it from working at this resolution even with the tinygui)
20090408 19:40:37< noy> First week of august is a holiday in pats of canada and the U.S.
20090408 19:40:43< mordante> what does bt give?
20090408 19:40:49< Shadow_Master> I'm searching for a time where we could expect the least activity
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20090408 19:41:07< noy> Shadow_Master: thats my guess for north america. 
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20090408 19:41:33< noy> Maybe first week of July; july 4th and July 1st are national days in north america
20090408 19:41:45< noy> Check the figures. 
20090408 19:41:48< Ivanovic> my guess is based on this: "in summer weather on the northern hemisphere is best, so many users that play in the "winter month" are outside"
20090408 19:41:58 * mordante goes to hunt some food
20090408 19:42:09< Gnutoo> mordante,I tried compiling another gdb and it didn't work
20090408 19:42:14< Gnutoo> I'll try gdbserver
20090408 19:42:34< noy> Ivanovic: can we check website traffic?
20090408 19:42:56< Ivanovic> noy: no idea
20090408 19:43:14< Ivanovic> noy: there is probably some data from google analytics
20090408 19:43:23< Ivanovic> but i don't know how to access this, dave should have the info
20090408 19:43:25< noy> thats what I'm thinking. 
20090408 19:43:43< Gnutoo> ok
20090408 19:44:13< Sapient> Ivanovic: that would be 1pm eastern US, right? I probably won't be able to make it on time
20090408 19:44:31< Sapient> if you push it back to 2pm maybe
20090408 19:44:48< Sapient> or do Saturday
20090408 19:45:04< Ivanovic> do you have daylight savings?
20090408 19:45:49< Ivanovic> looks like about 8h difference to me (germany being GMT+2, "eastern daylight time" being GMT -4"
20090408 19:46:06< Ivanovic> so it would be 2pm EDT
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20090408 19:48:19< Sapient> ok
20090408 19:48:32< Sapient> I hate daylight savings time
20090408 19:48:37< Ivanovic> so do i
20090408 19:49:01< CIA-30> fendrin * r34637 /trunk/data/core/macros/traits.cfg: New "Aged trait" for campaigns, decrease of HP by 8, melee and movement -1
20090408 19:49:33< Shadow_Master> who loves it
20090408 19:49:35< Ivanovic> now lets hope that dfranke, sirp and boucman got time then, too (mordante and YogiHH already said it works for them)
20090408 19:50:05< noy> I love daylights saving time; I love that weekend where it switches over and you instead of the sun setting @ 5:30 pm, it sets @6:30
20090408 19:50:31< Sapient> whatever money is gained from light bill reduction is surely wasted by labor in computer and device support 
20090408 19:50:35< Shadow_Master> I love that night where 00:00 doesn't exist :P
20090408 19:51:16< Sapient> it is a guaranteed headache twice a year for computer support personnel 
20090408 19:51:25< Ivanovic> Shadow_Master: uhm, here they switch between 2 and 3 am
20090408 19:51:39< Ivanovic> so either 3am becomes 2am or 2am becomes 3am
20090408 19:52:23< Shadow_Master> Ivanovic: haha, noticed in the logs
20090408 19:53:01< Shadow_Master> but here the switch is done at 23:59:59.9 to 01:00 around the start of spring
20090408 19:58:39< mordante> corn, FYI when a bug is assigned to a dev, it doesn't mean it's valid
20090408 19:59:33< mordante> corn, often some dev assigns it to somebody more familiar in that area. And thanks for looking into 'my' bug
20090408 20:00:17< noy> mordante: was that bug the one about text?
20090408 20:00:26< mordante> noy yes
20090408 20:00:33< mordante> you have any news about it?
20090408 20:00:34< noy> Yeah I helped him test that. 
20090408 20:00:42< mordante> ah thanks for that
20090408 20:00:52< noy> We weren't too sure what it meant
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20090408 20:03:13< mordante> it might be related to http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=24583
20090408 20:03:22< mordante> Gnutoo, any luck with gdb?
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20090408 20:03:35< Gnutoo> no I'm trying gdbserver
20090408 20:05:16< noy> mordante: sapient tested it on xp and couldn't find it
20090408 20:05:22-!- Espreon [n=espreon@wesnoth/developer/espreon] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090408 20:05:41< noy> guess it does exist
20090408 20:06:09< noy> I tested it on mac and it doesn't occur
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20090408 20:06:32< Turuk> noy: about your website statistics question earlier for traffic and the like, Soliton had set something up a while back.
20090408 20:06:52< noy> Turuk: is that for website traffic or server traffic
20090408 20:07:01< noy> I think its the latter
20090408 20:07:03< Turuk> Website traffic
20090408 20:07:09< noy> Oh, excellent
20090408 20:07:20< Turuk> It gives countries users are connecting from, sites they use to find Wesnoth and a whole bunch of other stuff
20090408 20:07:24< mordante> noy the problem only happens in the new dialogs and at least not on linux
20090408 20:08:06< noy> Turuk: I think we're just interested in the aggregate numbers. 
20090408 20:08:15< mordante> noy, if you go to the mp lobby and double click on a user and fill the textbox, does it crash or show an ellipse?
20090408 20:08:17< noy> IE when we have the least number of people. 
20090408 20:08:36< noy> let me load up
20090408 20:08:44< noy> Oh wait, I still use RC3 :p
20090408 20:08:48< Turuk> noy: Gotcha, it has just total quantities too, broken down by day/week/month
20090408 20:08:56< Turuk> I was just sharing some of the other fun tidbits :)
20090408 20:09:56< noy> mordante: woah... I think it happens here too
20090408 20:10:14< mordante> :-(
20090408 20:10:44< noy> want the report?
20090408 20:10:52< mordante> yes please
20090408 20:10:54< noy> It doesn't crash to desktop, only back to the main screen
20090408 20:11:13< noy> FYI... we need to make the text highlightable
20090408 20:11:19< noy> so I can copy and paste it
20090408 20:11:53< mordante> that should already work
20090408 20:12:02< mordante> of course not tested on Mac ;-)
20090408 20:12:20< noy> you're getting a png
20090408 20:12:42< mordante> can you paste it on an imagebin?
20090408 20:12:56< noy> sure... 
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20090408 20:14:12< Crab_> benetnash: around ?
20090408 20:14:23< noy> mordante: http://imagebin.org/44801
20090408 20:17:27< mordante> the same problem as on Windows
20090408 20:20:20< mordante> crimson_penguin, which pango backend do you use on the mac?
20090408 20:24:14< crimson_penguin> mordante: the Mac one, I forget what it's called
20090408 20:24:31< mordante> IIRC quartz 
20090408 20:24:44< crimson_penguin> well, that's one name for it
20090408 20:27:11< Ivanovic> Turuk: but those stats are only available for some months so far
20090408 20:27:31< Ivanovic> Turuk: that is: last summer we already had google analytics active on the website, so we should have some data
20090408 20:28:11< Turuk> Ivanovic: fair enough, I just figured it was better than nothing
20090408 20:28:33< Turuk> He could quote activity levels over the past few months to show that interest in Wesnoth is remaining steady or rising.  Just a thought
20090408 20:28:40< Ivanovic> we just have to wait for dave and we will see it
20090408 20:29:25< Ivanovic> ah, this is really tasty: http://www.biertest-online.de/cgi-bin/show/ebs.pl?Data=altenmuenster_maibock
20090408 20:29:38< Ivanovic> though most of you probably not know this beer
20090408 20:30:09< mordante> unfortunately not
20090408 20:30:38< Ivanovic> and even in germany (at least here where I live) you can't buy it all year either
20090408 20:31:10< mordante> I don't expect that of a Maibock
20090408 20:31:59< mordante> I still have some winterbeer left and guess I'll have to wait a while before I can buy it again
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20090408 20:33:21< hodor> hodor! hodor, hodor!
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20090408 20:39:25< noy> Shadow_Master: don't test me.
20090408 20:39:59 * Shadow_Master blames AI0867 
20090408 20:40:11< Shadow_Master> he also runs shikadibot from our server ^^
20090408 20:40:39< noy> riight
20090408 20:40:41< crimson_penguin> mordante: atsui is one name for something related to it, but I think there's something else too
20090408 20:41:00< Shadow_Master> in fact, I'm also at his server.
20090408 20:41:39< crimson_penguin> my uncle told me they totally redid the text rendering on Mac, and now it's CoreText
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20090408 20:42:24< mordante> ok, well I've to think what I can do about it...
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20090408 20:44:34< crimson_penguin> Cairo is used as well of course... I am very confused about what Pango does and what Cairo does
20090408 20:46:51-!- cjhopman [n=chris@wesnoth/developer/cjhopman] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090408 20:49:16< crimson_penguin> mordante: anyway, what's the problem?
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20090408 20:50:08< mordante> crimson_penguin, http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=24583 seems to happen on mac as well
20090408 20:50:44< crimson_penguin> ah
20090408 20:50:51< esr> Shadow_Master: lol
20090408 20:51:55-!- xjetx [n=chatzill@Mead-159.resnet.brown.edu] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090408 20:52:58< xjetx> anyone there?
20090408 20:53:20< crimson_penguin> yes
20090408 20:53:23< xjetx> okay
20090408 20:53:25< xjetx> so
20090408 20:53:25< mordante> no all gone :-P
20090408 20:53:32< xjetx> I know this has been discussed in the forums a few times
20090408 20:53:47< xjetx> but if I wanted to make a trading card game out of wesnoth
20090408 20:53:56< xjetx> is that legal under the open source license?
20090408 20:54:10< xjetx> ^^that part has always been assumed
20090408 20:54:25< xjetx> and so I was wondering if all these people were either not thinking about it or just assumed it
20090408 20:54:28< crimson_penguin> even when no one's here, they're watching... from the FUTURE! :O
20090408 20:54:33< Shadow_Master> esr: lol at what? :)
20090408 20:54:33< xjetx> lol
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20090408 20:57:34< Gnutoo> mordante, I've made it work with gdbserver...even if it's slow as hell: http://rafb.net/p/XDe94v11.html
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20090408 20:58:58< mordante> Gnutoo, can you post your assembly code as well, I'm not sure whether I can understand it, but it might help
20090408 20:59:07< Gnutoo> ok
20090408 20:59:37< Gnutoo> mordante,  http://rafb.net/p/4duwO956.html
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20090408 21:00:02< mordante> btw did you look at boost whether this is a known issue for your version of boost?
20090408 21:00:03< esr> Shadow_Master: "Think of the children!"
20090408 21:00:42< Gnutoo> mordante, on armv6 it works fine
20090408 21:00:54< Gnutoo> mordante, (if I do ssh -Y)
20090408 21:01:00< Gnutoo> mordante, no I didn't look
20090408 21:01:27< Gnutoo> mordante, the problem is that boost and wesnoth compiles fine so I don't know what error I should search
20090408 21:02:10< Gnutoo> the only message I have is the stacktrace and the segfault
20090408 21:02:33< mordante> the segfault occurs in boost::regex_search so maybe there's a report about it
20090408 21:02:40< Gnutoo> I'll search the stacktrace in the bugreport
20090408 21:02:45< Gnutoo> ok thanks
20090408 21:05:36< Gnutoo> maybe I should craft a code that crashes for boost
20090408 21:05:38< Gnutoo> thanks a lot
20090408 21:05:56< Gnutoo> I don't find an entry in the boost's track
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20090408 21:06:17< mordante> no problem
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20090408 21:06:46< mordante> the problem seems to happen when parsing a formula
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20090408 21:08:22< Gnutoo> mordante, I should look the part of wesnoth that use that lib...I'll look at the stacktrace
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20090408 21:10:08< mordante> Gnutoo, yes, it only looks like you compiled without debug info
20090408 21:10:50< cjhopman> Gnutoo: how do you reproduce it?
20090408 21:11:06< mordante> frame 4 is in gui/widgets/formula.hpp
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20090408 21:11:37< Gnutoo> for me it's very simple to reproduce: launch wesnoth and launch the tutorial...but...warning...I use an armv4 platform...
20090408 21:11:47< Gnutoo> thanks a lot
20090408 21:12:27< Ivanovic> cjhopman: you posted a wrong link, forgot a wiki/ in it
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20090408 21:13:18< mordante> the function starting at line 113 is not in the backtrace, but I guess it's really inlined in frame 4
20090408 21:14:29< Gnutoo> mmm...it's only that I don't know well how to use gdbserver...I'll try to load the symbols
20090408 21:14:35< mordante> and then things turn bad while constructing the game_logic::formula object
20090408 21:16:36< Ivanovic> cjhopman: had a look at your newly linked pages, interesting read
20090408 21:16:48< mordante> afk
20090408 21:17:21< cjhopman> Ivanovic: thanks... posted the correct link.
20090408 21:18:43< cjhopman> yeah, I was quite surprised by how many non-unique strings there were
20090408 21:20:27< cjhopman> 420000 strings total, only 16000 unique strings used
20090408 21:21:52< Ivanovic> like i said, a very interesting read
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20090408 21:28:22< crimson_penguin> well that's odd; now the MP server seems to be connectable, but it says "connection timed out" after connecting
20090408 21:29:02< CIA-30> esr * r34638 /trunk/data/campaigns/The_South_Guard/scenarios/05_Choice_In_The_Fog.cfg: Clarification suggested by a forum regular.
20090408 21:29:08< crimson_penguin> err, and now it worked... sort of - could just be my internet sucking
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20090408 21:31:22< mordante> back
20090408 21:36:48< CIA-30> mordante * r34639 /trunk/src/multiplayer_ui.cpp: Define -> const variable.
20090408 21:36:56< CIA-30> mordante * r34640 /trunk/src/mapgen.cpp: State that the cast to unsigned is intentionally.
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20090408 22:29:28< boucman> hey all
20090408 22:29:39< Espreon> Hello boucman.
20090408 22:29:48< Crab_> hi boucman
20090408 22:29:51-!- cjhopman [n=chris@wesnoth/developer/cjhopman] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"]
20090408 22:29:51< boucman> :)
20090408 22:30:18-!- fendrin [n=fabi@wesnoth/developer/fendrin] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090408 22:31:07< Dragonking> boucman: I wrote answer to your comment.
20090408 22:31:49< boucman> yes, havn't read it yet
20090408 22:34:54< YogiHH> night everyone
20090408 22:35:09< Crab_> night YogiHH
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20090408 22:37:40< boucman> Dragonking: not much to add to what you said in your response...
20090408 22:38:08< boucman> except that if outcomes and evaluate_for_position are buggy, you might consider removing them entirely
20090408 22:38:30< Dragonking> boucman: Well, not better fix?
20090408 22:38:51< boucman> better to fix, but only if it's usefull
20090408 22:39:13< boucman> I thought it was much smarter a real "recursively think assuming that move was done"
20090408 22:39:33< boucman> if it's limited to "remove a unit to consider possible moves" it's not that usefull
20090408 22:39:57< Dragonking> Yes, I think is should be improved.
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20090408 22:40:52< boucman> ok
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--- Log closed Thu Apr 09 00:00:47 2009