--- Log opened Mon Apr 20 00:00:11 2009
--- Day changed Mon Apr 20 2009
20090420 00:00:11< zookeeper> i haven't checked it in a long time as i didn't realize/remember that it creates different cache files for different versions, meaning that i still have ones from 1.5.4.
20090420 00:01:16< CIA-30> silene * r35073 /trunk/src/game.cpp: Fixed test scenario not loading Kaleh's picture.
20090420 00:02:57< silene> Soliton: i have absolutely no clue why your patch broke it; more precisely, i don't even understand why it was working before your patch
20090420 00:06:16< Ivanovic> off to bed, n8
20090420 00:06:42< silene> in fact, i'm no longer surprised this guy http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=25139 made it work by renaming HttT into UtBS; the UtBS paths were brought in by the test scenarios; this is just ridiculously dumb...
20090420 00:09:12-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: Summer of Code info: http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/SummerOfCodeIdeas | 50 bugs, 235 feature requests, 10 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20090420 00:10:41< Soliton> uh, heh. silene, i guess i should port the patch to 1.6 to stop the test scenarios leaking stuff?
20090420 00:13:19< silene> Soliton: sure, it should help performance-wise (even when playing UtBS); please backport my patch along the way
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20090420 00:14:30< Soliton> yes, of course.
20090420 00:18:32< silene> okay, i found why it doesn't work for this guy; in fact, YogiHH and Crab_ did, but they didn't backport the patch, shame on them...
20090420 00:18:50< Crab_> silene:what patch ? 
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20090420 00:19:55< silene> revision 34594
20090420 00:21:03< Crab_> aha, I remember that one...
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20090420 00:26:08< CIA-30> soliton * r35074 /branches/1.6/ (data/_main.cfg src/game.cpp): only load the test scenarios when we're in test mode
20090420 00:26:42< CIA-30> silene * r35075 /branches/1.6/src/game.cpp: 
20090420 00:26:42< CIA-30> Backport of revision 34594.
20090420 00:26:42< CIA-30> Fixes missing unit images for start-of-scenario savegames.
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20090420 00:43:48< happygrue> Sapient: what is the status of your proposed healing change?
20090420 00:44:09< Sapient> it is on hold
20090420 00:44:14< happygrue> I see
20090420 00:44:24< Sapient> due to the unreasonable scorn of the MP devs :(
20090420 00:44:41< happygrue> a wrath fearsome to behold
20090420 00:45:03< happygrue> so in terms of advising the manual rewrite, just explaining how things currently work would be the way to go?
20090420 00:45:46< Sapient> well, I'm not going to force the change in over the MP developers' objections; although I do feel strongly that it is the RightThingToDo
20090420 00:46:04< Sapient> so my hands, currently, are tied
20090420 00:46:08< happygrue> I see
20090420 00:46:16< Sapient> I kinda hoped someone else would do it for me :P
20090420 00:46:21< happygrue> hehe
20090420 00:46:45< happygrue> I am not crazy with the way healing works now, but I understand the concerns about changing it
20090420 00:51:15< Sapient> 'And no one after drinking old wine desires new wine, but says, "The old is good." ’
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20090420 00:54:38< Sapient> might just be a general resistance to change
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20090420 00:56:40< happygrue> to some extent at least
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20090420 01:01:16 * Blueblaze scorns and beats Sapient
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20090420 03:18:18< [Relic]> Hello :)
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20090420 03:52:36< dfranke> esr: your filter for undead vetarans on "Showdown in the Northern Swamps" isn't working for some reason.  Delfador was my only survivor of "The Gate Between Worlds", but it's telling me that I need to kill Iliah-Malal with an undead veteran.
20090420 03:53:00< esr> Crap.
20090420 03:53:18< esr> Let me look at the WML.  (I thought I'd tested that case.)
20090420 03:53:34< dfranke> esr: I'm looking at it, can't tell why it isn't working.
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20090420 04:08:12< dfranke> esr: ah, assuming ReferenceWML is up to date... looks like you can't have a bare unit filter like that as a condition.  You need to wrap it in [have_unit]; but then that won't check the recall list.
20090420 04:08:35< Sapient> can you paste the relevant code?
20090420 04:08:43< Sapient> the offending WML, that is
20090420 04:09:31< dfranke>         [if]
20090420 04:09:31< dfranke>             [filter]
20090420 04:09:31< dfranke>                 side=1
20090420 04:09:34< dfranke>                 race=undead
20090420 04:09:37< dfranke>             [/filter]
20090420 04:09:40< dfranke>             [then]
20090420 04:09:43< Sapient> I meant in a pastebin :p
20090420 04:10:00< Sapient> but yeah, that should be [have_unit] not [filter] there
20090420 04:10:41< dfranke> Sapient: but he wants to check the recall list, not the map...
20090420 04:10:57< dfranke> esr: maybe auto-recall all undead veterans, and then do the have_unit check?
20090420 04:11:19< Sapient> ah, then you have to store them into an array and check the length of the array
20090420 04:11:38< Sapient> because have_unit does not yet include the recall list
20090420 04:11:50< Sapient> (that is on the EasyCoding tasks, though)
20090420 04:13:14< Sapient> [store_unit] variable=undead_vets [filter] x,y,side,race=recall,recall,1,undead
20090420 04:14:00< Sapient> [if] [variable] name,greater_than=undead_vets.length,0
20090420 04:14:32< dfranke> esr: actually, I think you should just give the players some undead if he doesn't have any.
20090420 04:15:26< dfranke> esr: there's a continuity issue with the alternative... I just got done killing Iliah-Malal with Delfador in the previous scenario; why does it work this time and not then?
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20090420 04:53:41< esr> dfranke: Remember the dialog on Iliah-Malal's death event?  Her didn't get killed in 19, merely driven from that battlefield.
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20090420 06:10:31< CIA-30> esr * r35076 /trunk/data/campaigns/Delfadors_Memoirs/ (6 files in 3 dirs): Ficx a logic bug and bring the walkthrough up to date.
20090420 06:11:13< esr> wesbot: Seen ShadowMaster
20090420 06:11:14< wesbot> esr: Person, who was using the nick shadowmaster 3d 1h ago, last spoke 1d 1h ago.  is now known as Shadow_Master here and on the channels #wesnoth and #wesnoth-umc-dev.
20090420 06:11:14< dfranke> esr: Delfador just got reset to a Journeyman Mage in "Clash at the Manor"
20090420 06:11:42< esr> dfranke: Resync.  If fixed that one this morning.
20090420 06:11:48< esr> s/If/I/
20090420 06:11:56< dfranke> k
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20090420 06:15:54< dfranke> esr: didn't help.  Do I need to reload the previous scenario from the start?
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20090420 06:22:54< esr> dfranke: Not sure.  It's worth a try.
20090420 06:23:45< dfranke> esr: meh, screw it.  I've played these last two scenarios before.  I'll just write up what I've seen so far.
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20090420 06:34:41< ancestral> Can I find the length of a list (say, of enemy_units) using FormulaAI?
20090420 06:36:40< Sirp> ancestral: sure, use the size function
20090420 06:36:47< Sirp> e.g. size([]) is equal to 0
20090420 06:37:10< ancestral> Sirp: Excellent, thanks!
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20090420 09:07:01< dfranke> esr: I sent you notes on my playtesting.
20090420 09:08:06< dfranke> esr: I played through to the end despite the bug.  Those two scenarios were easy enough that it didn't prove a hindrance.
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20090420 09:18:18< euschn> good morning
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20090420 09:52:53< Ivanovic> moin
20090420 09:56:13< euschn> hi Ivanovic
20090420 10:01:14< Ivanovic> mordante: https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?13399
20090420 10:01:50< Ivanovic> though the "any" entry under OS is *bad*, since this can very well not be any
20090420 10:02:05< Ivanovic> and no idea if this is the case in 1.6, too (since the version reported is "1.4+"
20090420 10:08:13< CIA-30> ivanovic * r35078 /branches/1.6/po/ (wesnoth/is.po wesnoth-anl/is.po wesnoth-lib/is.po): updated Icelandic translation
20090420 10:08:19< CIA-30> ivanovic * r35077 /trunk/po/ (wesnoth/is.po wesnoth-anl/is.po wesnoth-lib/is.po): updated Icelandic translation
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20090420 10:22:56< stikonas> Soliton: src/actions.cpp:272,292,297 mentions Python AI, even though it is removed from the game. It should probably be removed from the string.
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20090420 10:27:47< Crab_> hi
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20090420 10:30:15< euschn> hi Crab_
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20090420 10:30:41< Crab_> hi euschn
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20090420 10:32:32< Soliton> stikonas: any idea why the first validation is needed, aren't the others enough?
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20090420 10:43:02< stikonas> Soliton: not really. deffender_weapon is also used in first part of code. Maybe it can be validated at the beginning at then remove last 2 validation.
20090420 10:43:42< stikonas> Soliton: And are those checks needed at all now? They were workarounds arount Python AI problems.
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20090420 10:47:10< Soliton> stikonas: it's generally a good idea to validate input though i'm not sure the checks are at the right place.
20090420 10:52:16< stikonas> Soliton: maybe ask mordante or boucman, git blame points to them
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20090420 10:55:22< Soliton> i'll just move the first validate into choose_defender_weapon().
20090420 10:55:43< Soliton> that's where it is actually needed it looks like.
20090420 11:01:03< CIA-30> soliton * r35079 /trunk/src/actions.cpp: removed the Python AI note from an error message and moved one validate to a better place
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20090420 11:12:34< Crab_> Soliton: note that current ai code sometimes calls "attack_enemy" directly (without using battle_context), specifying arbitrary weapon_id's
20090420 11:19:01< Crab_> (ok, that is still ok, since it uses battle_context, but later)
20090420 11:20:19< Soliton> a problem might be the attack() call later where the weapons seem unvalidated.
20090420 11:20:47< Crab_> Soliton: checking..
20090420 11:23:36< Crab_> Soliton: seems ok, 'attack' uses battle context, too
20090420 11:26:53< Soliton> but there is an array access with attack_with before.
20090420 11:27:22< Crab_> line ?
20090420 11:27:43< Soliton> 932
20090420 11:28:24< Soliton> that's some odd construct. what does the weapon have to do with movement used?
20090420 11:29:04< Crab_> a situation using a weapon may remove only *some* moves from unit
20090420 11:29:25< Crab_> at least this code thinks so )
20090420 11:30:25< Crab_> zookeeper: can a unit attack be modified using WML to only use some of the unit moves, not all moves ?
20090420 11:30:56< Soliton> you can just tweak the moves in an attack_end event or so.
20090420 11:32:09< Crab_> Soliton:  attack_end is not the best place to do this.. since wml events can "steal" a unit before then
20090420 11:37:23< Crab_> Soliton: there's obscure cfg option "movement_used", in attack_type, which defaults to 100000 (unit_types.hpp:71)
20090420 11:42:18< Soliton> looks like a candidate for removal to me.
20090420 11:43:37< Crab_> Soliton: it can be used by some scenario... a unit can have >1 attacks, so it makes sense to not rob it of movement points in that case...
20090420 11:43:41< Soliton> it's not to be found anywhere in data/ except in wmlgrammar.py.
20090420 11:44:07< Crab_> Soliton: the better question to ask is "is it documented?"
20090420 11:44:11< Soliton> then make it a skirmisher.
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20090420 11:44:40< Soliton> i'm sure you can hack that however you want with WML anyway.
20090420 11:44:40< Crab_> Soliton: "making it a skirmisher" won't help. since by default, attack removes all movement points
20090420 11:45:09< Soliton> well, then if we want to support multiattack units we have to change that.
20090420 11:45:28< Soliton> just remove movement when atacks_left == 0 or so.
20090420 11:47:30 * Crab_ is looking in the wiki to see if it is documented. If it is not, set_movement(0) is the best simplification.
20090420 11:47:38< Soliton> ok, modular RPG actually seems to use it.
20090420 11:48:12< Soliton> also the war of chaos era.
20090420 11:48:42< Crab_> Soliton: ok, then (maybe) insert an additional validate call before there ? just to be safe...
20090420 11:48:55< Soliton> sounds good to me.
20090420 11:49:17< Crab_> Soliton: and yes, it it documented ( http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/UnitWML )
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20090420 11:51:26< Crab_> ok, I'll do that
20090420 11:53:06< Soliton> thanks.
20090420 11:59:54< CIA-30> crab * r35080 /trunk/src/actions.cpp: Added an additional VALIDATE call to prevent potential segfault in attack::attack
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20090420 12:50:53< CIA-30> esr * r35081 /trunk/data/campaigns/Delfadors_Memoirs/ (5 files in 2 dirs): Text fixes for DM.
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20090420 13:42:09< zookeeper> Crab_, yes, it's possible
20090420 13:42:19< Crab_> zookeeper: thanks.
20090420 13:43:22< zookeeper> personally i consider movement_used= a useful feature to have for special UMC
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20090420 13:44:31< zookeeper> what would be very hard to find out via WML would be how many MP the unit had left when it attacked
20090420 13:44:56< zookeeper> of course usually only skirmishers could have values other than 0 or max
20090420 13:45:07< Crab_> zookeeper: it's all ok. we just weren't sure if it was an "old leftover in the code" or a "feature actually documented and used"
20090420 13:45:12< zookeeper> sure
20090420 13:45:47< Crab_> zookeeper: not only skirmishers ) unit other than skirmisher can 'attack and then retreat'
20090420 13:46:04< Crab_> ( if movement_used allows )
20090420 13:46:31< zookeeper> yep, hence the "usually"
20090420 13:46:40< Crab_> ok )
20090420 13:49:32< zookeeper> you're missing your eyes again..
20090420 13:49:45< AI0867> I use(d) movement_used somewhere
20090420 13:51:35< Crab_> zookeeper: yes :)
20090420 13:53:17< Soliton> does the AI handle movement_used?
20090420 13:53:31< Crab_> Soliton: no
20090420 13:53:45< Crab_> Soliton: it reuses actions.cpp attack routines.
20090420 13:54:24< Crab_> Soliton: at the moment, ai reuses actions.cpp for attacks and recruiting. it has its own version of 'move unit' (which will be changed in a near future)
20090420 13:56:18< Soliton> and its own version sets movement to 0 after a move, right?
20090420 13:57:10< Crab_> Soliton: it has two versions: move_unit_partial and move_unit. move_unit *tries* to set movement to 0 after a move. usually it works ok.
20090420 13:59:11< Crab_> Soliton: also AI sets unit movement_left to wrong >0 value in a few places (artifact from times of old when pathfinding worked a bit differently)
20090420 14:07:09< Crab_> Soliton: but it doesn't play nice with movement_used in all cases. since AI move_to_target routine uses move_unit, not move_unit_partial, so unit moves are set to 0 in that case, even if the unit has a weapon with movement_used=0
20090420 14:09:12< Crab_> ( ai/ai.cpp:1506 which is called from ai/ai.cpp:1069 which is the main part of default_ai play_turn routine )
20090420 14:13:09< Shadow_Master> esr: what do you want me for?
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20090420 14:27:56< esr> Shadow_Master: Two things:
20090420 14:28:40< esr> (1) How are the changes to make pango and conditionals wrk in [part] and [story] coming?
20090420 14:29:10< Shadow_Master> esr: RL is in the way
20090420 14:29:19< Shadow_Master> be patientt
20090420 14:30:20< Shadow_Master> (Ivanovic, Turuk: same with the promised forum upgrade... I haven't yet got around to apply the syndication mod and "upgrade" the wowgold and wesnoth forum themes - once that is complete, I'll be ready to do it in wesnoth.org
20090420 14:30:43< Ivanovic> Shadow_Master: okay, no reason to hurry
20090420 14:30:49< Turuk> Roger
20090420 14:31:13< Shadow_Master> I see Mist managed to get himself one spambot thougH?
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20090420 14:32:17< Soliton> like as a pet?
20090420 14:32:49< Shadow_Master> yeah, but he gave it up
20090420 14:37:07< Shadow_Master> esr: btw, the code for the conditionals is there already, just disabled by defaul
20090420 14:37:48< Shadow_Master> because it also wants [page]s instead of [part]s
20090420 14:38:29< esr> Shadow_Master: (2) I wanted to invite you, if time, to make the enemy lair in DM more interesting.  I agree it's something of an anticlimax as it is now.
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20090420 14:46:58< Shadow_Master> esr: please remind me to do it after I fix Chatnal's MUF
20090420 14:47:09< Shadow_Master> rather, try to convince me to do it after that fix
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20090420 15:33:37< esr> Shadow_Master: OK.
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20090420 17:10:20< fendrin> hi
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20090420 18:50:33< euschn> evening
20090420 18:53:59< Shadow_Master> afternoon
20090420 18:54:40< Turuk> midday
20090420 18:54:57-!- jmunro is now known as jmunro[a]
20090420 18:54:58< Shadow_Master> 6 minutes before 13:00 here
20090420 18:55:05< Turuk> fine, same here, afternoon too
20090420 18:55:06< Turuk> :P
20090420 18:55:14< euschn> ok, i will stick to "hi" next time :)
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20090420 19:41:08< YogiHH> hello everyone
20090420 19:45:31< euschn> hey YogiHH
20090420 19:51:08-!- fendrin [n=fabi@wesnoth/developer/fendrin] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090420 19:54:44-!- mordante [n=mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090420 19:54:58< mordante> hi
20090420 19:55:36< ilor> hi mordante
20090420 19:55:46< mordante> hi ilor 
20090420 20:00:58-!- boucman [n=rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090420 20:01:38< boucman> hey all
20090420 20:01:44< Crab_> hi boucman
20090420 20:01:49< boucman> so, what's up
20090420 20:02:59< Ivanovic> waiting for the official announcement of the accepted students
20090420 20:03:03< Ivanovic> about one week to go
20090420 20:03:23< mordante> hi boucman 
20090420 20:03:27< ilor> it's gonna be a short, one hour week ;)
20090420 20:03:48< Ivanovic> hey, the week ends on monday at 7pm GMT
20090420 20:03:58< mordante> Ivanovic, times in Germany seem odd ;-)
20090420 20:04:00< boucman> hehe
20090420 20:04:50 * ilor brb
20090420 20:05:16< Ivanovic> mordante: not odd, they are complicated...
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20090420 20:07:24< mordante> guess that explains a lot ;-)
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20090420 20:16:05< silene> hi
20090420 20:16:25< mordante> hi isaac 
20090420 20:16:30< mordante> hi silene 
20090420 20:16:32< isaac> hi all
20090420 20:21:59< stikonas> Ivanovic: when I add new translator to the team, I have to create diff file or will you update about.cfg manually?
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20090420 20:22:27< Ivanovic> stikonas: i need the name in utf8
20090420 20:22:39< Ivanovic> i don't care if it is as diff or in a mail encoded as utf8
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20090420 20:37:47< Ivanovic> stikonas: i won't commit right away, busy watching a movie
20090420 20:38:11< stikonas> Ivanovic: No problem
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20090420 20:56:11< fendrin> hi silene
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20090420 21:17:28< mordante> http://socghop.appspot.com/org/home/google/gsoc2009/wesnoth
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20090420 21:18:08< mordante> ilor_ cjhopman Dragonking corn Crab_ euschn ^ congrats
20090420 21:18:14< ilor_> YAY
20090420 21:18:23< Crab_> thanks )
20090420 21:18:24< Dragonking> mordante: Thanks. ;)
20090420 21:18:40< Crab_> congratulations, Dragonking :)
20090420 21:18:42< boucman> :)
20090420 21:18:50< Dragonking> You too, Crab_  :)
20090420 21:18:54< Dragonking> And everyone else.
20090420 21:19:18< Crab_> yes )
20090420 21:19:39< mordante> for everybody not selected for gsoc feel free to ask us for the reasons why
20090420 21:20:02< euschn> im in? hell yea, many thanks!
20090420 21:20:20< euschn> grats on the 5 lucky others
20090420 21:20:39-!- gabm [n=gabm@64.235.202.15] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090420 21:21:06< gabm> hi all
20090420 21:21:12< mordante> hi gabm 
20090420 21:21:35< boucman> hey gabm, could you joing #wesnoth-mentor for a minute ?
20090420 21:21:56< gabm> sure boucman
20090420 21:24:14< cjhopman> very cool, thanks
20090420 21:27:35< cjhopman> also, if you are in Sweden you can watch the icpc finals on tv tomorrow
20090420 21:27:44< cjhopman>  though, I can't imagine that it could be very entertaining
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20090420 21:29:18< Ivanovic> cjhopman, corn, Crab_, Dragonking, euschn, ilor_: congrats!
20090420 21:29:32< Dragonking> Thanks Ivanovic 
20090420 21:29:34< Dragonking> :)
20090420 21:29:47< Crab_> thanks )
20090420 21:29:50< cjhopman> thanks
20090420 21:30:17< ilor_> thanks :)
20090420 21:30:20-!- Ivanovic changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: accepted students for SoC: http://socghop.appspot.com/org/home/google/gsoc2009/wesnoth | 50 bugs, 235 feature requests, 10 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20090420 21:30:47< ilor_> also, nice to see wesnoth got more slots
20090420 21:31:51< mordante> we asked more slots this year, since we had more mentors as well
20090420 21:32:51< boucman> so, Crab_, let's get started :)
20090420 21:33:03< Crab_> boucman: ok )
20090420 21:33:41< boucman> how has it been going today ?
20090420 21:34:06< Sapient> congrats to you, sirs
20090420 21:34:07< boucman> overall, I don't have much to add to your proposal/timeline, 
20090420 21:34:16< mordante> silene, I get an unused variable warning in src/scripting/lua.cpp:666 is there a nice way to fix it?
20090420 21:36:07< silene> that's really the first time i see this warning being useful; the code is plain crap indeed, let me fix it
20090420 21:36:07-!- Turuk [n=Turuk@wesnoth/forumsith/turuk] has quit [Connection timed out]
20090420 21:37:17< mordante> good to know it can be useful :-)
20090420 21:37:27< Sapient> or maybe it is evil code
20090420 21:38:18< CIA-30> silene * r35082 /trunk/src/scripting/lua.cpp: Fixed copy-paste error.
20090420 21:38:31< Crab_> boucman: good. here's my current work list: http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/AI_Refactoring2009Crab#CURRENT_WORK
20090420 21:39:24< Crab_> Dragonking: can you specify your 'current work plans' somewhere too ?
20090420 21:39:39< boucman> ok, so your current plan is to first extract the game-changing parts, then move on to the AI testing parts ?
20090420 21:40:30< Dragonking> Crab_: I have no "current" plans due to load of work for my unit ATM, this week I most likely won't be able to touch anything.
20090420 21:40:41< Crab_> Dragonking: this is also a work plan :)
20090420 21:41:01< Dragonking> Crab_: If any - I want to change the way how filter works in candidate moves - to make it work like boucman wishes :)
20090420 21:41:07< Crab_> ok )
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20090420 21:41:53< boucman> Crab_: I can bring you up on that part (obviously) but I don't  think it would disturb your  plans much until you dig into RCA
20090420 21:42:52< Crab_> boucman: There's two things about ai testing: 1) There's karl_m, and he has done his 1st patch ( --ai_config ) in 7 days. He's started work on his second patch ( batch testing of 'small tests' ) 4 days ago. So, I'll give him a week or so to appear on IRC with results.   2) I need to compile wesnoth on either windows or freebsd - what is easier ?
20090420 21:43:25< silene> freebsd
20090420 21:43:28< boucman> probably freebsd
20090420 21:43:33< boucman> it has make
20090420 21:43:41< boucman> (and probably scons and automake)
20090420 21:43:51< mordante> and cmake
20090420 21:43:56< boucman> whereas we spent weeks and weeks repeatedly explaining how to compile on windows
20090420 21:44:17< Crab_> boucman, silene: is there any tutorial for compiling-wesnoths-and-its-dependencies-on-FreeBSD somewhere ?
20090420 21:44:30< boucman> not that I know of
20090420 21:44:36< mordante> me neither
20090420 21:44:40< boucman> why do you need to compile on these os ?
20090420 21:45:23-!- gabm [n=gabm@64.235.202.15] has quit ["See you around guys"]
20090420 21:45:56< Crab_> boucman: I have a spare box at home, which is dual-boot freebsd\windows, which houses my backups. I can use it to do batch testing and post results to db on my colocated box. 
20090420 21:46:15< boucman> makes sense
20090420 21:46:51< Crab_> boucman: so, i need to pick the easiest way of 3: A: make it triple-boot (by installing debian gnu/linux there)  B: compile on windows  C) compile on freebsd
20090420 21:47:10< boucman> A is probably the easier
20090420 21:47:13< boucman> :P
20090420 21:47:15< Crab_> hehe )
20090420 21:47:35< boucman> i'm no kidding, though triple starts to be messy, but yes, it's the easiest
20090420 21:47:36< mordante> I would just test how hard it is on freebsd
20090420 21:47:44< boucman> because there are enough experts around to help
20090420 21:48:01< boucman> yeah, I agree with mordante, not worth installing a thrid os for
20090420 21:48:03< mordante> I assume most dependencies are already in the repos there
20090420 21:48:05< Crab_> boucman: ok ) i'll try ) which buildsystem should I try first ? 
20090420 21:48:14< boucman> not autotools
20090420 21:48:24< boucman> that's the only answer that won't lead to a flamewar :P
20090420 21:48:28< mordante> I would guess on autotools ;-)
20090420 21:48:33< Crab_> :)
20090420 21:48:33< boucman> (and the only sane one)
20090420 21:48:52< silene> actually, autotools is the only one i know being used on freebsd, since i received bug-reports about it
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20090420 21:49:32< esr> fendrin:  There's sa *bad* bug now associated with Night In the Swamp - the northern generator is appearing at the wrong place!
20090420 21:49:36< mordante> Crab_, which version of Freebsd do you use?
20090420 21:49:47< Crab_> mordante: 7.1 or smth like that. 
20090420 21:50:16< mordante> it at least used to work on older versions http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/UsingAutotools
20090420 21:51:45< loonycyborg> Yep. Autotools are almost guaranteed to work on freebsd :)
20090420 21:52:13< Crab_> boucman: so, my current plan is to extract the game-changing parts, then fork default ai codebase and provide a way to load  both 'original' default ai parts and 'forked' default ai parts via .cfg files (and selection through dropdown menu in multiplayer).
20090420 21:52:19< Crab_> boucman:  then, make forked version of default ai use my new editions of game-changing parts.
20090420 21:52:28< mordante> Crab_, well seems the maintainers of all build systems seem to agree autotools is the way to go ;-)
20090420 21:52:35< Crab_> mordante: hehe )
20090420 21:53:01< boucman> Crab_: sounds good, how long do you expect to split out the game changing parts ?
20090420 21:53:02< Crab_> boucman: then, refactor the forked version of default ai to be composed of candidate actions.
20090420 21:53:25< loonycyborg> Perhaps if I had a freebsd partition, I had a different opinion.
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20090420 21:55:21< fendrin> esr: ?
20090420 21:55:42< loonycyborg> I remember looking into installing freebsd on another partition but iirc some limitation stopped me.
20090420 21:55:53< esr> fendrin: Hmm, now I look at the code, it may have been intended.
20090420 21:56:40< fendrin> esr: Maybe I shuffeld the coordinates during recoding.
20090420 21:57:18< fendrin> 9/3 may have been the right position.
20090420 21:57:36< Crab_> boucman: i intend to have working alternate versions of game-changing parts (ai actions) by saturday, and think of a best way to fork the default_ai during saturday.
20090420 21:57:52< esr> fendrin: But it's weird.  On EASY, we put one generator way off in the hills, then on NORMAL we put two relatively close by, then on HARD we put one close by abd one off in the hiils again.  Is that really what we want?
20090420 21:58:26< boucman> how about making RCA mandatory and having a single "fallback" rule as the default AI ?
20090420 22:00:14< Crab_> boucman: well, I agree
20090420 22:00:20< CIA-30> mordante * r35083 /trunk/src/actions.cpp: Fix a compiler warning.
20090420 22:00:30< Crab_> boucman: but I think that there may be many different implementations of RCA evaluator.
20090420 22:00:38< boucman> Crab_: that's the first idea that came to me, there might be other way, 
20090420 22:00:50< boucman> but using RCA as a "big AI synchronizer" makes sense
20090420 22:00:59< fendrin> esr: Let's have two on all levels. easier means stones are easier to reach.
20090420 22:01:09< boucman> and the current RCA logic can stay untouched for some time, it already allows us to do lot of stuff
20090420 22:01:10< Crab_> boucman: so, I'm thinking of making a 'composite ai' which will consist of stages. concrete example of that 'composite ai' is a 1-stage AI, where that 1 stage is an RCA.
20090420 22:01:41< boucman> not sure I understand, please explain
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20090420 22:03:45< Crab_> boucman: to be an AI, class needs to implement play_turn(). Other things are not-so-important details. Inside play_turn, there is some turn sequence.
20090420 22:03:57< esr> fendrin: Then I think the easiest of the setups would be the one we have in NORMAL now.
20090420 22:04:17< boucman> ok, I understand your previous sentence now :)
20090420 22:04:28< Crab_> boucman: the easiest way to formalize a turn sequence is to say that this is a std::vector < stage >, and stages are executed in sequence. And let RCA evaluator be a stage.
20090420 22:05:19< Crab_> boucman: then, we can write a big bad factory method which will read the "names" of stages from .cfg and create a concrete ai object.
20090420 22:05:58< Crab_> boucman: so, we will be able to "construct" ai from pieces.
20090420 22:06:01< boucman> so, let me sum it up..
20090420 22:06:13< Crab_> boucman: ok )
20090420 22:06:22< boucman> you can have "complete AI" pluged by probiding a class with play_turn()
20090420 22:06:50< boucman> you will provide one of these AIs which will play its turn by calling a sequence of "stage" functions
20090420 22:06:56< Crab_> yes
20090420 22:07:17< boucman> each stage probably being either RCA or C++ or lua or whatever implements another play_stage() function ?
20090420 22:08:18< Crab_> yes. stages are, technically, c++ (since they extend a c++ abstract base class), but they be just a proxy :)
20090420 22:08:33< boucman> ok, I follow
20090420 22:08:45< boucman> (design discussions without a drawing board are hard :P)
20090420 22:09:13< Crab_> boucman: recommend a good "share drawing board" site and I'll use it :)
20090420 22:09:31< boucman> we have one at work, but I don't know of any free one
20090420 22:09:40< boucman> (I'm not sure google doc does drawing :D )
20090420 22:10:51< boucman> i'm not sure why we need the play_turn() + play_stage() double level plugin...
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20090420 22:10:59< boucman> actually there is a huge design question here
20090420 22:11:22< boucman> does the C++ has a "hard AI structure" in which we plug micro algorithm (RCA approch)
20090420 22:11:48< boucman> or does C++ only provide a very hard level plugin and the AIs do all the heavy lifting (play_turn approch)
20090420 22:11:51< mordante> I'm off night
20090420 22:11:56< boucman> play_stage() is a bit in the middle
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20090420 22:12:47< Crab_> boucman: if we drop stages, then we'll gain almost nothing (there's not much code to write to get a simple std::vector< stage > working). but we will lose the ability to 'construct' the ai from different pieces.
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20090420 22:13:17< fendrin> esr: Is this config easy enough?
20090420 22:13:33< boucman> Crab_: I was not sugesting "dropping" stage, 
20090420 22:13:48< Crab_> boucman: " i'm not sure why we need the play_turn() + play_stage() double level plugin..."
20090420 22:14:04< boucman> I just like to ask design question early rather than have useless/overcompicated designs
20090420 22:14:26< Crab_> boucman: ok ) so, I've tried to answer why we need stages - because RCA is specialized.
20090420 22:14:40< boucman> Crab_: that means "convince me that they serve different purpose and that we need both" not "this is a bad idea"
20090420 22:15:15< fendrin> esr: Just lost with an old savegame. Maybe my army is not that strong as it would be with a more recent savefile.
20090420 22:16:14< Crab_> ok, I'll start the explanation from the start, in a different way :)
20090420 22:17:34< boucman> please do, explaining differently is a usefull talent :)
20090420 22:18:51< Crab_> we have a play_turn. we want to do a number of *different* things in there. I think that RCA evaluator is not specialized and is not designed to "do all the things we may want to do during the turn".
20090420 22:18:55< Crab_>  Also, I think that we may need different versions of RCA evaluator ('stable' and 'development', or just two radically different implementations) - to detect regressions, and to search for *fastest* and *better* RCA.
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20090420 22:19:37< CIA-30> silene * r35084 /trunk/src/scripting/lua.cpp: Added some Lua accessors for unit data.
20090420 22:19:37< Crab_> So, we need to do several *quite different and pluggable* things during the turn.
20090420 22:20:16< boucman> hmm ok...
20090420 22:20:54< Crab_> the simplest way to do 'several *quite different and pluggable* things during the turn', is to name each thing 'a stage' and make a vector of managed-pointers-to-them
20090420 22:21:22< Crab_> boucman: so, the aforementioned 'composite ai which is a vector of configurable stages' appears.
20090420 22:21:58< boucman> Crab_: the problem with the stage approch is that the different AI have to know about each other, so they don't step on each other toe
20090420 22:22:48< Crab_> boucman: they don't need to know about each other. "You came into a room, and you see a computer standing in there. wesnoth is running, and it is your turn. some units have already moved, some are still free to move"
20090420 22:22:51< boucman> which basically means that you have to decide early which stage would exist (attack, build wall, defend, recruit, place healers) and an ai could cover multiple stages, but could only interact with ai that don't cover the same stges
20090420 22:23:13< Crab_> boucman: no, that's not the scope of stages
20090420 22:23:33< Crab_> boucman: I think that "attack, build wall, defend, recruit, place healers" will be handed by RCA quite well.
20090420 22:23:37< boucman> Crab_: my point is that most AI will be like the current default and would play everything, unless there are defined "stages" they know the should not overlap
20090420 22:23:51< boucman> ok, so what would a stage be for you ,
20090420 22:23:52< boucman> ?
20090420 22:26:02 * loonycyborg kicks freebsd for requiring to be installed on a primary partition. All are already taken :P
20090420 22:26:13< Crab_> boucman: stages such as "do_some_scripted_stuff_at_start_of_turn", "candidate_action_evaluator"
20090420 22:26:13< YogiHH> night everyone
20090420 22:26:30< Crab_> boucman: basically, I do not want to have a bloated RCA.
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20090420 22:27:02< boucman> Crab_: not very clear to me.. so these stage would not be gameplay oriented ?
20090420 22:28:23< Crab_> boucman: they may be gameplay-oriented (such as RCA evaluator)
20090420 22:30:14< Crab_> boucman: but I do not want to put *everything* into RCA evaluator.
20090420 22:30:18< boucman> could you pastebin a proof of concept AI description WML somewhere, I understand what stages are, I don't really understand how multiple completely independant stages could interact in a smart way...
20090420 22:31:44< Crab_> boucman: please open formula_ai::play_turn
20090420 22:32:02< Crab_> src/ai/formula_ai.cpp:1679
20090420 22:32:20< boucman> on it
20090420 22:32:34< Crab_> firstly, it does " for(unit_map::unit_iterator i = units_.begin() ; i != units_.end() ; ++i) ... " - unit formulas
20090420 22:33:09< boucman> ok, it's THAT sequence you want to make configurable :P
20090420 22:33:19< Crab_> then, it executes that formulas, then, it calls RCA..
20090420 22:33:24< Crab_> boucman: yes. 
20090420 22:33:42< Crab_> boucman: I do not want to put things in RCA which do not belong here. hence, RCA!=play-turn
20090420 22:33:53< Crab_> hence, we need some more stages, not just 'rca stage'
20090420 22:34:00< boucman> ok, well, this sequences only works because all stages except the last one (default_ai) only handle special cases
20090420 22:34:10< Crab_> boucman: yes, it is so
20090420 22:34:45< boucman> I thought you wanted to "intermangle" default_ai and RCA...
20090420 22:34:59< Crab_> boucman: yes, you're right.
20090420 22:35:20< Crab_> boucman: that will be possilble, too
20090420 22:36:00< Crab_> boucman: but I personally think that 'exposing default_ai  elements as candidate actions' is the main way to go.
20090420 22:36:03< fendrin> silene: Is there a way to get the function that got registered with a tag?
20090420 22:36:21< boucman> Crab_: yes, I agree on that
20090420 22:36:33< Crab_> boucman: but, nothing prevents us from doing a 'let formula ai make it's moves first, then call old default_ai to finish the job.
20090420 22:37:40< Crab_> boucman: or 'do some things at start of turn', then run RCA1, then finish the turn with RCA2
20090420 22:37:48< boucman> Crab_: hmm, the idea of intermangling the two was that a CA that was not good might sudenly become a good idea because of a default_ai move (like movin a healer after a couple of fights took place)
20090420 22:38:12< silene> fendrin: no (you could intercept the calls on lua side though, so the answer would actually be yes); do you have something specific in mind?
20090420 22:38:30< Crab_> boucman: well, there are 'scripted things that should be done at the start of the turn', in scenarios. 
20090420 22:38:38< Crab_> boucman: so, unit formulas in formula_ai run before RCA
20090420 22:39:31< Crab_> boucman: or, imagine someone implementing a 'strategic evaluator' phase to analyze the battlefield and set ai parameters (such as agression and goals) based on some fancy algorithm
20090420 22:39:54< Crab_> boucman: we'll just add this 'strategic evaluator' at the start of turn, and it will set the ai parameters.
20090420 22:40:01< boucman> Crab_: ok, but all that pushes toward a fixed, well defined number of stages
20090420 22:40:11< fendrin> silene: say you want to define several tags that share subtags. Like the unit filter that is used in several playes. Shared subtags or tags that can be nested or accour at toblevel should be defined only once.
20090420 22:40:17< boucman> 1) strategic 2) unit formulas 3) generic fighting
20090420 22:40:25< Crab_> yes. at runtime, this will be fixed well defined number of stages.
20090420 22:40:54< Crab_> but, to the ai, they are all just stages, and all it knows is "run them in turn". so, std::vector is the best way to go, imho.
20090420 22:41:37< boucman> ok, I never disagreed with the code side, vectors are good
20090420 22:41:39< Crab_> and it is up to an developer of specific to define which stages are wanted, and in what order
20090420 22:41:57< boucman> I was wondering what you had in mind behind the idea of "stages" I have a better idea what you mean by that now
20090420 22:42:30< Crab_> we have 2 stages now in formula_ai - unit formulas and unit loop formulas, and RCA.
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20090420 22:43:31< fendrin> silene: That is why I want to call the function that was registered with a tag.
20090420 22:43:49< boucman> ok, I understand what you mean
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20090420 22:44:15< silene> fendrin: the "filter" tag is the tag that should never be overridden, so i'm not sure it is a good example; anyway, if you want to fire an action, then wesnoth.fire("something", something_data)
20090420 22:44:37< Crab_> boucman: and note that each phase may have parameters
20090420 22:45:03< Crab_> boucman: both shared parameters (game state and ai parameters), and nonshared
20090420 22:45:22< Crab_> boucman: these may allow for fine-tuning specific small parts
20090420 22:45:49< Crab_> boucman: example of such a parameter is a functor which can answer the question "what should we recruit?" 
20090420 22:46:07< Crab_> (it can be a proxy to whatever - c++, lua, fai, etc)
20090420 22:46:13< boucman> ok, make sense
20090420 22:46:31< Crab_> example of such a parameter is "what weapon should we use for attack?"
20090420 22:46:45< Crab_> (functor which can answer the question "what weapon should we use for attack?")
20090420 22:46:50< fendrin> silene: Why not the filter tag?
20090420 22:47:31< Crab_> example of such a parameter is a functor that computes some statistics (for example, combat statistics)
20090420 22:47:34< boucman> ok, i understand what you want to do, just make sure the AI don't become "too tunable" we still want it to be relatively simple to wtire
20090420 22:47:36< silene> fendrin: because it is not an action tag, it is hardcoded in wesnoth code and any tag that you would define with this name would simply be ignored
20090420 22:48:09< Crab_> boucman: well, I want to keep the ai .cfg syntax simple and backwards-compatible
20090420 22:48:10< silene> (in fact, not just "filter", any tag that starts with "filter" is ignored by the engine)
20090420 22:49:08< Crab_> boucman: I'm a fan of 'write simple and documented interfaces first, only then implement them'
20090420 22:49:30< boucman> hehe :)
20090420 22:49:39< boucman> i'll quote you on that someday :P
20090420 22:49:47< boucman> writing simple AI interface is hard :)
20090420 22:50:20< Crab_> boucman: see ai/ai_manager.hpp and ai/ai_actions.hpp
20090420 22:50:26< Crab_> boucman: for examples
20090420 22:50:50< boucman> Crab_: I didn't say you wern't able to do it 
20090420 22:50:51< fendrin> silene: good to know. What about filter in subtags of selfdefined tags?
20090420 22:51:03< boucman> I said it was hard, and that you shouldn't underestimate that :)
20090420 22:51:16< Crab_> boucman: ok )
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20090420 22:52:11< silene> fendrin: that's up to you: they are not visible by the engine, only by your action handler
20090420 22:52:28< corn> awesome. I got a gsoc slot
20090420 22:52:39< Crab_> corn: congratulations )
20090420 22:52:39< corn> thank you gentlemen, I'll begin hacking away immediately :)
20090420 22:52:50< boucman> btw, you all know who you mentor are ?
20090420 22:52:55< corn> aye
20090420 22:53:04< boucman> (we usually have our real names on gsoc, so it might be confusing)
20090420 22:53:29< dfranke> corn: congrats
20090420 22:54:09< Crab_> boucman: https://gna.org/project/memberlist.php?group=wesnoth helps in realname->screenname matching :)
20090420 22:54:23< silene> fendrin: just to make things clear: you don't have to register subtags, you only register tags that can occur at the top level
20090420 22:57:04< fendrin> silene: right. I see the need to seperate them as well.
20090420 22:57:19< Crab_> boucman: feel free to ask any more questions :)
20090420 22:57:45< boucman> don't worry, I will :P
20090420 22:58:11< Crab_> ok :) 
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20090420 23:05:44< fendrin> silene: Can I overwrite the [If] tag?
20090420 23:06:42< silene> fendrin: yes
20090420 23:10:45< Crab_> small question about git: will 'plain copy of .git directory to other host on the local network' allow me to use it on the second host without problems ?
20090420 23:10:56< corn> can I get a db dump of stats.wesnoth.org with all the current row entries? I want to make the whole thing much faster as my first goal
20090420 23:11:17< boucman> corn: ask sirp, I guess...
20090420 23:11:21< corn> ok
20090420 23:11:30< corn> I can just duplicate my current rows for now a few hundred times
20090420 23:14:09< CIA-30> ivanovic * r35086 /branches/1.6/ (14 files in 13 dirs): updated Lithuanian translation
20090420 23:14:19< CIA-30> ivanovic * r35085 /trunk/ (12 files in 12 dirs): updated Lithuanian translation
20090420 23:14:23< Sapien1> silene: if I overwrite the behavior of [if] in one Add-On  MP scenario, would it potentially break all other MP scenarios?
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20090420 23:18:29< silene> Sapien1: no, they won't, unless events of other scenarios are run too
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20090420 23:20:04< Soliton> Crab_: well, the git tarball you got initially is also just a copy of .git.
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20090420 23:21:17< Crab_> Soliton: yes, I noted that, but I wasn't sure whether there was something 'special' done to it before distribution.  
20090420 23:21:25< Crab_> Soliton: thanks. 
20090420 23:24:40< dfranke> "Oracle is as committed as ever to to Linux and other open platforms".  Why don't I like the sound of that? 
20090420 23:24:48< dfranke> corn: Still planning on MySQL? :-/
20090420 23:25:27< boucman> dfranke: that is a standard sentence it doesn't mean a thing either way
20090420 23:25:31< boucman> wait and see
20090420 23:26:47< corn> dfranke: yeah
20090420 23:26:55< corn> worst comes to worse, someone will fork it
20090420 23:27:02< corn> comes to worst*
20090420 23:27:06< corn> I think it's already happened actually
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20090420 23:29:22< dfranke> I wonder what my dad will think of this.  He was an early employee at Sun in the 80's.  Salesman.
20090420 23:29:37< dfranke> The tech who followed him around on sales calls was Eric Schmidt.
20090420 23:29:46< corn> wow
20090420 23:30:05< corn> well, on slashdot the general consensus is that there will be a large clash of corporate culture
20090420 23:30:25< boucman> you bet...
20090420 23:30:29< corn> oracle is also targetted towards completely different audiences than mysql so it shouldn't be a problem
20090420 23:30:35< stikonas> Ivanovic: man program doesn't show unicode characters when wesnoth man file located in path man/lt/man6/? Can it be upstream bug?
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20090420 23:30:51< Ivanovic> stikonas: you are using the wrong man prog
20090420 23:31:00< Ivanovic> there is one (older version) that does not support utf8
20090420 23:31:08< Ivanovic> the more recent ones should work nicely with utf8
20090420 23:34:40< Ivanovic> stikonas: over here it looks fine: http://imagebin.org/46253
20090420 23:35:13< stikonas> indeed
20090420 23:35:23< Ivanovic> the gentoo package i am using for the manpages: sys-apps/man-db-2.5.5 
20090420 23:35:39< stikonas> maybe gentoo patches man-db
20090420 23:36:01< stikonas> because I also have 2.5.5 on ubuntu jaunty
20090420 23:36:02< Ivanovic> nope, no patch, plain vanilla version
20090420 23:36:38< Ivanovic> post a bugreport to the ubuntu people that utf8 manpages ain't displayed correctly
20090420 23:36:49< Ivanovic> but make sure thate your terminal emulator is not to be blamed
20090420 23:38:01< silene> which locale is that?
20090420 23:38:02< stikonas> it works correctly if I put wesnoth.6 in any other folder, so terminal emulator shouldn't be blamed
20090420 23:38:13< stikonas> lt_LT.UTF-8
20090420 23:39:08< silene> looks bad here too, but the other ones seem to work fine
20090420 23:39:17< Ivanovic> hmm, interesting
20090420 23:39:37< stikonas> Debian/Ubuntu also uses vanilla man-db
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20090420 23:41:00< Ivanovic> cjhopman, corn, Crab_, Dragonking, euschn, ilor_: please check that your proposal has a usable abstract since the abstract is what is directly accessible from the wesnoth "homepage" at google
20090420 23:41:12< corn> Ivanovic: ok
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20090420 23:41:59< silene> i just tried them all, only lt and tr are looking bad; not sure what is special about them
20090420 23:42:43< Ivanovic> they are all created exactly the same way and lt works over here
20090420 23:43:11< Crab_> Ivanovic: is my current abstract *usable* atm ? do I need to move some stuff from wiki to there ?
20090420 23:43:21< silene> when i display them with less, they work fine, but man seems to cope on them
20090420 23:43:47< Ivanovic> Crab_: make it in a way that some outsider finds it usable
20090420 23:44:02< Ivanovic> i think it is not too well atm for someone not knowing your proposal
20090420 23:44:04< stikonas> Ivanovic: thanks for screenshot, noticed spelling mistake in it
20090420 23:44:14< Ivanovic> you're welcome
20090420 23:44:18< Ivanovic> okay, afk again
20090420 23:45:18< Crab_> Ivanovic: ok. unable to do so at the moment ("This page is inactive at this time." (c) Google, when I click "edit" ).
20090420 23:46:16< Crab_> I will try again later
20090420 23:46:40< CIA-30> alink * r35087 /trunk/src/ (unit_types.cpp unit_types.hpp): 
20090420 23:46:40< CIA-30> Little cleaning of [hide_help]:
20090420 23:46:40< CIA-30> Reset it between campaigns and allow to use more than one [not] subtag
20090420 23:58:59< CIA-30> alink * r35088 /trunk/src/ (unit_types.cpp unit_types.hpp): 
20090420 23:58:59< CIA-30> Add a key 'type_adv_tree' in [hide_help] to hide a whole advancement tree
20090420 23:58:59< CIA-30> Syntax: type_adv_tree=Peasant hides peasant, bowman, longbowman, spearman...
20090420 23:58:59< CIA-30> Also add an utility function to get the advancement tree of a unit_type.
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--- Log closed Tue Apr 21 00:00:50 2009