--- Log opened Tue Apr 28 00:00:02 2009
--- Day changed Tue Apr 28 2009
20090428 00:00:02< Shadow_Master> now I want to implement story screen caching
20090428 00:00:13< Shadow_Master> ... just a few lines that I cannot test at the moment :-(
20090428 00:01:25 * esr make supportive gestures in Shadow_Master's direction.
20090428 00:01:45< YogiHH> oops...
20090428 00:02:03< Shadow_Master> it's just caching the scaled story screen background, so you wouldn't have those noticeable delays per screen like in HttT 1
20090428 00:02:51< CIA-30> jhinrichs * r35278 /trunk/data/gui/default/window/game_save_oos.cfg: Adds a missing file...
20090428 00:02:59< YogiHH> Crab_: try again?
20090428 00:03:29 * Crab_ compiles..
20090428 00:03:30 * Shadow_Master bites YogiHH's rear leg
20090428 00:03:48< Shadow_Master> Crab_: you don't need to compile again
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20090428 00:03:56< Crab_> Shadow_Master: I know.
20090428 00:04:07< Shadow_Master> YogiHH: works here
20090428 00:04:20< YogiHH> ok, sorry for the hassle :-)
20090428 00:04:34< Crab_> YogiHH: all ok, happens sometimes :)
20090428 00:07:28< CIA-30> crab * r35279 /trunk/src/actions.cpp: AI Testing: added faction logging to ai/testing log
20090428 00:09:13-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: accepted students for SoC: http://socghop.appspot.com/org/home/google/gsoc2009/wesnoth | 58 bugs, 236 feature requests, 12 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20090428 00:26:06< CIA-30> jhinrichs * r35280 /trunk/ (3 files in 2 dirs): 
20090428 00:26:06< CIA-30> Savegame reorganization Step 1: Providing a simpler interface to saving and loading.
20090428 00:26:06< CIA-30> Some more savegame.cpp refactoring.
20090428 00:27:47< Shadow_Master> all your commits are "step 1"?
20090428 00:28:20< loonycyborg> That's a really epic step 1.
20090428 00:28:31< loonycyborg> Almost as epic as IftU :P
20090428 00:30:04< Polarina> I hope that the .gz ending in save games won't be visible anymore.
20090428 00:30:35< Shadow_Master> Complain-O-Matic :P
20090428 00:30:51< Shadow_Master> we'll call you next time we need to raise the bug list above 100 ;)
20090428 00:31:09< Polarina> Shadow_Master: :P
20090428 00:31:50< YogiHH> night everyone
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20090428 00:32:36< Polarina> Cool. 9003 e-mails in my mailbox.
20090428 00:33:05< Shadow_Master> Polarina: one question. If you are on #defocus, why do you tell us this?
20090428 00:33:36< Polarina> Shadow_Master: This room's tab was open.
20090428 00:34:12< Shadow_Master> "Sorry guys, I killed my brother because I confused him with a big bag of meat."
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20090428 00:42:14< Ivanovic> n8
20090428 00:42:35< Polarina> Ivanovic: Sleep tight. :)
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20090428 00:47:59< CIA-30> loonycyborg * r35281 /trunk/projectfiles/ (3 files in 2 dirs): Committed McShark's projectfiles update.
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20090428 01:03:28< esr> Trunk build is broken!
20090428 01:03:30< esr> src/savegame.hpp:178: error: extra qualification ‘savegame::’ on member ‘check_overwrite’
20090428 01:04:25< Polarina> Who's at fault?
20090428 01:04:47< esr> Almost certainly jhinrichs
20090428 01:10:04< loonycyborg> I'm about to commit a fix.
20090428 01:11:07< CIA-30> loonycyborg * r35282 /trunk/src/savegame.hpp: Fixed "extra qualification" compile error.
20090428 01:11:19< loonycyborg> People who use msvc cause those often :)
20090428 01:11:37< Polarina> People who use msvc are evil.
20090428 01:13:10< loonycyborg> Shh! This channel is logged! msvc users may read it, track you down and kill you :P
20090428 01:13:52< Polarina> loonycyborg: Want me to volunteer on catching compiler errors with nasty warning flags (and making a diff fixing them on the way?)
20090428 01:14:40< loonycyborg> Do you have commit access?
20090428 01:14:46< Polarina> loonycyborg: No.
20090428 01:15:53< loonycyborg> Then using nasty warning flags only would cause you annoyance.
20090428 01:16:15< Polarina> loonycyborg: I am volunteering on fixing nasty warnings. :)
20090428 01:16:22< loonycyborg> There are already two people with commit access consistently hunting them.
20090428 01:16:55< Polarina> I see.
20090428 01:17:02< Polarina> Just trying to help. :)
20090428 01:19:05< loonycyborg> Most of them are rather trivial, fixing them is even easier than running patch -p0 :)
20090428 01:19:41< Polarina> I'll start on branches/1.6 to see if I catch any warnings.
20090428 01:22:05< Crab_> corn: around ?
20090428 01:23:02< Polarina> Amazingly, no warnings...
20090428 01:23:54 * Polarina attempts stricter flags.
20090428 01:24:17< Crab_> night
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20090428 01:24:34< Polarina> Compiler error.
20090428 01:24:40 * Polarina checks it out.
20090428 01:25:26 * Polarina fixes.
20090428 01:28:03< Polarina> error: ISO C++ 1998 does not support ‘long long’
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20090428 01:46:25< Polarina> I got the patch done.
20090428 01:47:25< Polarina> http://simnet.is/gabrielp/wesnoth-pedantic-patch
20090428 01:49:56 * Polarina sits backs and waits for any response.
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20090428 01:56:50< Polarina> Anyone not dead here?
20090428 01:57:09< cjhopman> patience, friend
20090428 01:57:23< Polarina> cjhopman: Ok. Can you take a look at the patch? :)
20090428 01:58:00< cjhopman> long long != long
20090428 01:58:28< Polarina> cjhopman: long long isn't needed there due to the small values in these variables.
20090428 01:58:45< Polarina> And these were the only occurrences of long long in the entire source code.
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20090428 02:01:44< Polarina> cjhopman: At least I cannot imagine damage greater than 2147483647.
20090428 02:03:06< Polarina> cjhopman: Anyway, what do you think?
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20090428 02:44:08< CIA-30> crab * r35283 /trunk/utils/ai_test/ (6 files): AI Testing: AI batch testing scripts and web interface
20090428 02:50:55< CIA-30> crab * r35284 /trunk/utils/ai_test/ (ai_test.py ai_test_db.backup readme.txt wesnoth_ai_test.php): Modified svn properties of newly-added files
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20090428 03:30:44< [Relic]> Hello :)
20090428 03:33:36< CIA-30> shadowmaster * r35285 /trunk/src/storyscreen/ (controller.cpp controller.hpp interface.cpp): (log message trimmed)
20090428 03:33:36< CIA-30> Implemented simple storyscreen caching for non-LOW_MEM builds, and
20090428 03:33:36< CIA-30> switched some code that was using pure memory pointers to using
20090428 03:33:36< CIA-30> shared_ptrs for safety and cleanness.
20090428 03:33:36< CIA-30> (I was using pointers just to avoid copy-constructor calls on the part
20090428 03:33:38< CIA-30> and part_ui objects- now we copy-construct shared_ptrs, which has no
20090428 03:33:40< CIA-30> important effects on runtime performance. It was becoming a huge hassle
20090428 03:35:46< Shadow_Master> esr: I think I can enable the new storysreen code and solve your FR regarding [if] and [switch] flow control in [story]
20090428 03:36:51< Shadow_Master> I still want to change some stuff,so by no means should this code tree be considered completed/finished, but the old functionality has been reimplemented and we also have caching for those scaled storyscreen graphics
20090428 03:37:40 * Shadow_Master tracks back what code blocks should be nuked in exchange
20090428 03:38:44< Shadow_Master> damn. I had forgotten that writing C++ switches me to a state of euphoria. :)
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20090428 03:45:34< CIA-30> shadowmaster * r35286 /trunk/src/intro.cpp: 
20090428 03:45:34< CIA-30> Enable the experimental storyscreen code. The --shadow-storyscreen
20090428 03:45:34< CIA-30> switch is left for experimental features that will follow soon
20090428 03:45:34< CIA-30> (including a new idiom for end-of-campaign text screens).
20090428 03:45:34< CIA-30> Note that the new storyscreen code causes a noticeable delay on startup
20090428 03:45:35< CIA-30> for HttT as it caches scaled down versions of the background graphics.
20090428 03:45:39< CIA-30> We should probably do loadscreen calls there...
20090428 03:51:39< Shadow_Master> funnily, the Wesnoth storyscreens (both before and after my changes) are the only part of the game that get negatively by lack of hardware acceleration on X.org+radeonhd here
20090428 03:51:49< Shadow_Master> * negatively affected
20090428 03:52:28< Shadow_Master> there's little to no performance impact on the animated game. I suppose that says something about Wesnoth :)
20090428 03:56:35< CIA-30> shadowmaster * r35287 /trunk/changelog: 
20090428 03:56:35< CIA-30> Added a changelog entry - r35286 finishes the initial implementation of
20090428 03:56:35< CIA-30> feature request / bug #13170 and #13290.
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20090428 05:09:33< dfranke> esr: pong?
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20090428 07:49:07< noy> is there an outstanding bug on 1.6.1 XP for crashes?
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20090428 08:58:31< euschn> hi
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20090428 10:19:07< Crab_> hi
20090428 10:19:40< Ivanovic> moin
20090428 10:20:33< benetnash> Crab_: hi
20090428 10:20:45< euschn> hi Crab_, Ivanovic
20090428 10:20:45< Crab_> hi Ivanovic, benetnash
20090428 10:21:42< Crab_> benetnash: I'm doing ai batch testing at the moment, and it is interesting for me to know, how do you intend to test 'which ai is better'
20090428 10:26:09< benetnash> it's obvious, that single fight between two AI cannot determine which is better. I have two sets of 100 AI, one "test set" and one "hosts set". Each host fight with 20 tests choosen randomly and get points for winning. The more AI beat some test, the less points they get for winning.
20090428 10:26:40< benetnash> I know that this method has high bias, but I cannot find anything better
20090428 10:26:52< Crab_> thanks. I've got http://crab.terraninfo.net/data/misc/wesnoth_ai_test.php  and  http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth/trunk/utils/ai_test/ai_test.py?rev=35284&view=markup at the moment
20090428 10:27:52< Crab_> note: formula_ai and default_ai there are *supposed* to be equal, since that formula ai has no formulas
20090428 10:29:04< benetnash> in my experiments I have to test lot of different AI's in shotr time, so I'll make only one fight between each. Also I'll stick only to Loyalists to make AI simplier
20090428 10:29:34< benetnash> today I'm going to start first serious experiment, in couple of days first experimental AI will emerge ;)
20090428 10:29:47< Crab_> that's good )
20090428 10:30:41< benetnash> I bet, that default AI will be better then that mine, my experiment is just diploma work, I cannot win with AI developed for such long time ;)
20090428 10:31:32< Crab_> benetnash: it was developed with other concerns in mind, so maybe you'll be able to win, if you have solid attack planning capabilities :)
20090428 10:32:14< benetnash> Crab_: is your python script GPL'ed? Can I use it in my work?
20090428 10:33:00< Crab_> benetnash: as it is stated in the readme file in that utils/ai_test dir, all files there are gpl v2 or higher
20090428 10:33:11< benetnash> Crab_: ok, thx
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20090428 10:33:37< benetnash> now I have go back to work, sorry
20090428 10:33:53< Crab_> benetnash: ok also note (if you haven't spotted it yet), log domain ai/testing
20090428 10:35:14< benetnash> Crab_: yes, I already seen this. anyway thx
20090428 10:40:49< CIA-30> ivanovic * r35288 /trunk/po/ (4 files in 4 dirs): updated Chinese (Traditional) translation
20090428 10:40:49< CIA-30> ivanovic * r35289 /branches/1.6/po/ (4 files in 4 dirs): updated Chinese (Traditional) translation
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20090428 11:13:50 * esr idly wonders where rhe missing "c" from benetnash's name went.
20090428 11:17:21< benetnash> esr: "c"?
20090428 11:17:53< esr> There;s a star named "Benetnasch".   You didn't know this?
20090428 11:18:25< benetnash> esr: that's why I'm using this nickname
20090428 11:19:00< benetnash> but in polish its benetnash
20090428 11:19:14< esr> Right, so I wondered where the "c" went :-)
20090428 11:19:18< esr> Oh, I see.
20090428 11:20:37< benetnash> it seems, that in internet both names are in use http://www.glyphweb.com/esky/stars/benetnash.html
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20090428 11:28:40< CIA-30> esr * r35290 /trunk/data/campaigns/Delfadors_Memoirs/TODO: More work on the DM TODO list.
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20090428 11:41:30< esr> Shadow_Master: The good news is, conditionals in [part] seem to work.  The bad news is this message:Ouch[stub]: void show_storyscreen(display&, const vconfig&, const std::string&) [at src/storyscreen/interface.cpp:61] 
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20090428 12:09:12-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: accepted students for SoC: http://socghop.appspot.com/org/home/google/gsoc2009/wesnoth | 59 bugs, 236 feature requests, 12 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20090428 12:29:33< esr> zookeeper: All those complicated jorney macros that have been justifiably frightening you are about to get deastically simplified, to the point where they should actually be mnaintainable. :-)
20090428 12:29:47< esr> s/deastically/drastically/
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20090428 13:25:31< CIA-30> esr * r35291 /trunk/data/campaigns/Delfadors_Memoirs/scenarios/12_terror_at_the_ford_of_parthyn.cfg: Typo fix.
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20090428 13:38:56< Mica_> 59 bugs? Wow, so few from what I remember
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20090428 13:55:40< esr> Mica: Feel like being useful?
20090428 13:56:53< dfranke> esr: I'm headed back to bed in a few minutes, but you pinged me yesterday?
20090428 13:57:27< esr> dfranke: Yeah, I wanted to discuss your DM review with you.  When would be a good time for that?
20090428 13:58:10< dfranke> esr: Now if it's quick, otherwise either email me or I'll catch you later on IRC.
20090428 13:58:37< esr> I'll email you my notes, we can follow up on IRC.
20090428 13:58:59< dfranke> ok
20090428 14:09:47< Shadow_Master> esr: roger
20090428 14:10:59< esr> Shadow_Master: Rejoice, you have enabled my to clear up some of the nastiest macros in mainline.
20090428 14:11:04< Shadow_Master> esr: it was a missing break in a swithc-case statement :P
20090428 14:11:11< esr> s/my/me/
20090428 14:11:23< esr> Huh? What was?
20090428 14:11:50< Shadow_Master> in my code
20090428 14:11:57< esr> Ah.
20090428 14:12:41< CIA-30> shadowmaster * r35292 /trunk/src/storyscreen/controller.cpp: Don't throw quit exceptions like crazy - add a missing break statement.
20090428 14:12:57< Shadow_Master> esr: it shouldn't throw that message now - please test
20090428 14:13:09< esr> Will do.
20090428 14:19:28< esr> I just documented conditionals within [story]/[part] on the wiki.
20090428 14:20:04< esr> Resyncing and rebuilding...
20090428 14:20:16< Shadow_Master> good. I don't need to edit the wiki then :D
20090428 14:23:02< esr> Testing...
20090428 14:26:45< esr> Shadow_Master: Looks good.  Feel free to close those FRs now.
20090428 14:27:50< Shadow_Master> mark as fixed?
20090428 14:27:54< Ivanovic> jupp
20090428 14:27:58< esr> Yes.
20090428 14:28:03< Ivanovic> closing only once 2.7.0 is out
20090428 14:28:06< Shadow_Master> I know ;)
20090428 14:28:13< Shadow_Master> Ivanovic: that will be in some centuries
20090428 14:28:16< esr> Sorry, that's what I meant.
20090428 14:28:30< Ivanovic> Shadow_Master: correct
20090428 14:28:58< esr> Wow.  The simplification in the Heir to the Throne bigmap.cfg file is *huge*.
20090428 14:29:38< esr> \o/  It's actually maintainable now!  \o/
20090428 14:30:22< Ivanovic> corn, dfranke, mordante: what is the status of this patch? https://gna.org/patch/?1165
20090428 14:30:39< Ivanovic> (including dfranke since he already commited some part for improving sorting stuff)
20090428 14:30:46< Shadow_Master> was it that bad? :o
20090428 14:30:56< Ivanovic> Shadow_Master: even worse...
20090428 14:31:18< Turuk_> I love asshole users
20090428 14:31:21< Turuk_> They make my morning
20090428 14:31:25< Shadow_Master> Ivanovic: no, not your patch
20090428 14:31:39< Shadow_Master> Turuk_: I love spambots
20090428 14:31:46< Shadow_Master> I just ate one
20090428 14:31:57< Ivanovic> Shadow_Master: i know that you meant the path scripts for the maps on story screens
20090428 14:31:59< CIA-30> esr * r35293 /trunk/data/campaigns/Delfadors_Memoirs/maps/shadows.map: Make movement on the eastern part of the map a bit less forbidding for humans.
20090428 14:32:06< Ivanovic> and they are currently not readable for humans
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20090428 14:33:43< CIA-30> esr * r35294 /trunk/data/ (15 files in 4 dirs): 
20090428 14:33:43< CIA-30> Allowing conditionals inside [part]and [story] allows some major
20090428 14:33:43< CIA-30> simplifications in conditional journey macros and their calling code.
20090428 14:33:56< Shadow_Master> Ivanovic: I may have not read them for years them
20090428 14:34:13 * Shadow_Master steps back
20090428 14:37:44< zookeeper> esr, sounds great. those journey macros used to look like a really major hassle to me.
20090428 14:38:59< esr> zookeeper: Take a look at trunk.  I think they won't scare you any more.
20090428 14:41:45< Ivanovic> loonycyborg: which version of scons is required for trunk?
20090428 14:41:50< Ivanovic> IIRC there was a bump
20090428 14:43:02< Shadow_Master> it seems to work fine with scons 1.0.0
20090428 14:45:32< Ivanovic> (i am currently updating CompilingWesnoth to really point to the latest version)
20090428 14:45:59< loonycyborg> Ivanovic: 0.98.3
20090428 14:47:19< Ivanovic> http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/CompilingWesnoth#Prerequisites
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20090428 14:47:52< loonycyborg> Stable requires 0.96.93
20090428 14:48:43< Ivanovic> loonycyborg: fixed
20090428 14:51:00< Shadow_Master> okay, the r35294 diff scared me
20090428 14:53:17< Ivanovic> really?
20090428 14:53:20< Ivanovic> how comes?
20090428 14:53:22< Ivanovic> ;)
20090428 14:59:40< esr> Shadow_Master: I don't make FRs casually :-)
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20090428 15:38:08< euschn> hi
20090428 15:38:20< Crab_> hi euschn
20090428 15:41:07< Sapient> do you use Casual Hodorism, though?
20090428 15:52:16< Crab_> silene, boucman: I've completed a new version of AI testing stats web interface. It's here - http://crab.terraninfo.net/data/misc/wesnoth_ai_test2.php?dim1=ai_ident_me&dim2=svn_release
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20090428 16:13:26 * Polarina spits on Shadow_Master.
20090428 16:15:12< esr> Polarina: That wasn't nice.
20090428 16:15:30 * YogiHH read the log and found unpleasant remarks about msvc users ;-)
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20090428 16:15:48< Polarina> esr: He bit me.
20090428 16:15:57< esr> Oh.  
20090428 16:16:13< esr> Play nice, kids, or daddy will spank.
20090428 16:16:31< Polarina> Who's daddy?
20090428 16:17:17< YogiHH> Polarina: esr and me and we are watching you carefully atm :-P
20090428 16:17:32< Polarina> I wonder why...
20090428 16:18:09< YogiHH> Polarina: well, my own children always know perfectly well, why :-)
20090428 16:20:03 * Polarina wonders if anyone took a look at her patch.
20090428 16:32:09< loonycyborg> You mean the -pedantic one?
20090428 16:32:41< cjhopman> I don't like how -pedantic complains about extra semicolons
20090428 16:35:48< loonycyborg> There's a possibility that long long here is actually warranted for some reason.
20090428 16:39:53< CIA-30> esr * r35295 /trunk/data/campaigns/The_Rise_Of_Wesnoth/utils/ (trow-bigmap.cfg trow-green-isle-journey.cfg): Major simplification of TROW journey macros.
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20090428 16:42:08< dfranke> Ivanovic: The patch is in need of my review, but I'm presently headed into work early because I'm getting sick and need to get some things done prior to collapsing, so I'm not sure about the prospects for the next couple days.
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20090428 16:45:49< CIA-30> esr * r35296 /trunk/data/campaigns/ (2 files in 2 dirs): Avoid exporting local utility macros.
20090428 16:47:52< Ivanovic> okay
20090428 16:48:03< Ivanovic> dfranke: then you should maybe assign it to yourself and post a comment
20090428 16:49:22< esr> dfranke: Get well fast.
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20090428 16:55:33< CIA-30> esr * r35297 /trunk/data/tools/trackplacer: Comment typo fixes.
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20090428 17:50:31< corn> Ivanovic: current in class now, I will check tomorrow. I think that the patch is more or less resolved however, mordante and I agreed that implementing it 'correctly' is not worth the effort
20090428 17:50:41< corn> currently*
20090428 17:50:54-!- Turuk [n=Turuk@wesnoth/forumsith/turuk] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090428 17:51:02< corn> I will check at 5 pm today*
20090428 17:51:14< corn> in 5 hours*
20090428 17:51:15< corn> heh
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20090428 18:03:45< Polarina> Hello, again.
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20090428 18:08:26< Polarina> loonycyborg: Yes, the -pedantic one.
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20090428 18:09:13-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: accepted students for SoC: http://socghop.appspot.com/org/home/google/gsoc2009/wesnoth | 58 bugs, 235 feature requests, 12 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20090428 18:14:34< Polarina> Why does the file save_index.gz have the .gz extension when it's not compressed?
20090428 18:16:32-!- crimson_pingvin [n=ben@64.201.60.216] has quit ["Leaving"]
20090428 18:17:08< loonycyborg> Its name is set in filesystem.cpp:268
20090428 18:17:27< Polarina> Ok.
20090428 18:18:16 * loonycyborg uses git blame
20090428 18:19:09< loonycyborg> The last person who changed that line was Soliton.
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20090428 18:52:48< CIA-30> esr * r35298 /trunk/data/ (14 files in 13 dirs): Don't allow generated trackplacer symbols to clutter up the global namespace.
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20090428 19:02:33< benetnash> when somebody make 'where' in fai to work as it should?
20090428 19:03:04< Crab_> benetnash: are you referring to a particular bug ?
20090428 19:03:45< benetnash> Crab_: no, but I think, that [a,a,a] where a = debug_print('foo') should write 'foo' only once.
20090428 19:05:21< Crab_> benetnash: ask Dragonking about that one. I think we've talked about something like this somewhen ago....
20090428 19:05:22< benetnash> if where commands are executed before rest command also setting variables is possible using <formula> where dummy = set_variable('foo', 'bar'). Now dummy won't be resolved at
20090428 19:05:35< benetnash> Crab_: ok
20090428 19:05:39< CIA-30> esr * r35299 /trunk/data/tools/trackplacer: Typo fixes.
20090428 19:06:03-!- mordante [n=mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090428 19:06:14< Crab_> benetnash: it's more general problem here, of "when to reevaluate"
20090428 19:06:25< mordante> hi
20090428 19:06:33< Crab_> hi mordante
20090428 19:06:41< mordante> hi Crab_ 
20090428 19:07:02< Mica> Hey mordante.
20090428 19:07:09< mordante> hi Mica 
20090428 19:07:37< benetnash> Crab_: yes, I thought, that where is to avoid reevaluation of some expression, but it seems to be just syntactic sugar
20090428 19:07:44< Shadow_Master> hi mordante 
20090428 19:07:46< Crab_> benetnash: note that in [a,a,a], if evaluation of "a" is allowed to change the game state, then the second "a" may evaluate to a different thing from first "a".  Think about  "move,move,move"
20090428 19:08:01< mordante> hi Shadow_Master 
20090428 19:08:07< shikadibot> hi mor... eh.
20090428 19:08:17< shikadibot> ;)
20090428 19:08:46< Crab_> benetnash: so, ask Dragonking, as this is language design question...
20090428 19:08:53< benetnash> Crab_: ok
20090428 19:10:20 * mordante waves to shikadibot ;-)
20090428 19:11:01< benetnash> hey
20090428 19:11:09< benetnash> type (-6 * -6) in fai console
20090428 19:11:18< benetnash> wtf?
20090428 19:12:11< benetnash> does fai have some problems with negative numbers?
20090428 19:13:19< Crab_> benetnash: (-6)*(-6)
20090428 19:13:19< mordante> no idea what's the result?
20090428 19:13:32< Crab_> benetnash: it seems that formula parser has problems with unary -
20090428 19:13:52< benetnash> Crab_: I'll report it at gna
20090428 19:13:58< Crab_> benetnash: thanks
20090428 19:20:57 * benetnash wonders why you don't use yacc/lex for fai parsing. It's much easier imho
20090428 19:21:29< loonycyborg> Spirit ftw! even easier :P
20090428 19:22:57< Crab_> benetnash: I don't know. It was written some time ago....
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20090428 19:28:56< mordante> Polarina, long long will be part of the next C++ standard and all compilers used support it, that's why I never bothered to fix it. 
20090428 19:29:08< mordante> Polarina, you can use -Wno-long-long to suppress the warning
20090428 19:29:46< loonycyborg> mordante: It doesn't actually happen unless you pass -pedantic :P
20090428 19:30:08< mordante> I know, but she did ;-)
20090428 19:30:44< mordante> Ivanovic, regarding https://gna.org/patch/?1165 I share boucman's concern
20090428 19:31:22< Polarina> mordante: Sure. But in that case, long long isn't even required.
20090428 19:32:19< Polarina> mordante: It's not a warning, it's a compiler error when using -pedantic
20090428 19:34:02< mordante> it's a warning with -pedantic only an error with in combination with -Werror or when using -pedantic-error ;-)
20090428 19:34:28< Polarina> mordante: It's an error because Wesnoth uses -std=c++98
20090428 19:34:48< mordante> I never looked closely at the reason IIRC rusty wrote the code so I assumed he had a good reason for long long
20090428 19:35:13< Polarina> I seriously doubt there's any good reason behind that...
20090428 19:35:31< mordante> if it ain't broke, don't fix it ;-)
20090428 19:36:16< Polarina> Reminds me of bubblesort for some reason.
20090428 19:37:07< mordante> bubblesort is inefficient, which can be broken in some cases 
20090428 19:37:27< Polarina> long long is also inefficient on 32-bit targets.
20090428 19:41:18< Polarina> I can remove the long long part from the patch...
20090428 19:41:49< benetnash> deos your wesnoth write "caught unknown error playing level..." on console on exit?
20090428 19:42:18< Polarina> benetnash: No.
20090428 19:43:05< mordante> like I said I assume rusty picked long long for a good reason so never bother to look closely and we never had an indication that part of the code is a bottleneck
20090428 19:43:20< benetnash> strange
20090428 19:43:44< Polarina> benetnash: Why?
20090428 19:44:28< mordante> Polarina, don't bother to remove long long from the patch
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20090428 19:46:41< benetnash> Polarina: my wesnoth everytime ends with error message. I think it's somehow connected with formula ai testing
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20090428 19:56:30< CIA-30> esr * r35300 /trunk/data/ (2 files in 2 dirs): Fix errors in trackplacer's overlap detector.
20090428 19:56:38< CIA-30> mordante * r35301 /branches/1.6/src/ (multiplayer_ui.cpp tests/main.cpp tests/test_formula_ai.cpp): 
20090428 19:56:38< CIA-30> Fix some compiler warnings.
20090428 19:56:38< CIA-30> Patch provided by Polarina.
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20090428 20:01:35< CIA-30> crab * r35302 /trunk/ (changelog src/ai/ai.hpp src/ai/formula_ai.cpp): 
20090428 20:01:35< CIA-30> Implement FR in Bug #13397 : new fai function suitable_keep which takes a
20090428 20:01:35< CIA-30> location on which a unit is standing, and returns, in order of decreasing
20090428 20:01:35< CIA-30> preference: nearest (by pathfinding) empty keep reachable by that unit within 1
20090428 20:01:35< CIA-30> turn, nearest (by pathfinding) occupied keep reachable within 1 turn, result of
20090428 20:01:38< CIA-30> old nearest_keep() implementation, null location.
20090428 20:01:48< Crab_> benetnash: ^^^ use:  suitable_keep(my_leader.loc)
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20090428 20:04:51< benetnash> Crab_: good, now recruitment.fai will work as supposed
20090428 20:05:08< Crab_> benetnash: not always, but it will be less buggy
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20090428 20:29:15< Polarina> mordante: Thanks.
20090428 20:31:44< mordante> Polarina, you're welcome and thanks for the patches
20090428 20:31:46< mordante> afk
20090428 20:31:54< CIA-30> mordante * r35303 /trunk/src/ (multiplayer_ui.cpp tests/main.cpp tests/test_formula_ai.cpp): 
20090428 20:31:54< CIA-30> Fix some compiler warnings.
20090428 20:31:54< CIA-30> Patch provided by Polarina.
20090428 20:32:12< Polarina> mordante: I'll go work on the trunk. :)
20090428 20:32:30< mordante> :-)
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20090428 20:44:39< CIA-30> jhinrichs * r35304 /trunk/ (changelog src/actions.hpp src/menu_events.cpp): 
20090428 20:44:39< CIA-30> Applies the patch for making dismissal of units undoable and partly fixes bug
20090428 20:44:39< CIA-30> #13268 (save corruption through undo/redo of recalls. The bug will still be kept
20090428 20:44:39< CIA-30> open as working with the index of the recall list always leaves room for
20090428 20:44:39< CIA-30> corruption. A final fix will have to involve working with unit id's instead if
20090428 20:44:42< CIA-30> indices.
20090428 20:46:17< Ivanovic> re
20090428 20:46:37< Ivanovic> mordante: regarding https://gna.org/patch/?1165 : dfranke already commited part of it without commenting in the patch
20090428 20:46:56< Ivanovic> that is at least the current status should somehow reflect what really is up
20090428 20:48:38< dfranke> Ivanovic: I'll update the status now.
20090428 20:49:09< Ivanovic> great
20090428 20:50:34< Ivanovic> boucman: (i hope you read the logs...) any news on https://gna.org/patch/?1028 ?
20090428 20:50:42< Ivanovic> it is marked as postponed since july 2008
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20090428 21:04:04< CIA-30> jhinrichs * r35305 /trunk/src/ (savegame.cpp savegame.hpp): Refactoring save_game_interactive in savegame.cpp.
20090428 21:09:38< Polarina> mordante: Trunk checks out clean.
20090428 21:10:03< Polarina> But it still doesn't compile with -pedantic because of the long long.
20090428 21:13:26-!- AndreLuiz [n=deko__@unaffiliated/andreluiz] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090428 21:15:14< Polarina> Where is the so called FAI implemented?
20090428 21:15:46-!- happygrue [n=George@wesnoth/developer/wintermute] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090428 21:15:49< Crab_> Polarina: src/ai/formula_ai.[ch]pp which uses src/formula*
20090428 21:16:11< Polarina> Crab_: And the FAI parser?
20090428 21:16:51< benetnash> Polarina: src/formula.cpp
20090428 21:16:59< Polarina> Ok, thanks.
20090428 21:17:17< Polarina> And how do I test it with some expressions?
20090428 21:17:27< Crab_> Polarina: FAI is "formula language used to make ai". so, FAI reuses "formula language parser", 
20090428 21:17:33< Crab_> Polarina: press "f" and input 
20090428 21:17:38< Polarina> Crab_: Thanks.
20090428 21:18:29< noy> anybody would like to take a stab at guessing how many active developers we have?
20090428 21:18:58< Crab_> noy: 24 ?
20090428 21:19:16< noy> Crab_: I don't know the answer
20090428 21:19:26< noy> and freeware mag needs its answers
20090428 21:19:38 * Crab_ will try grepping git log now...
20090428 21:20:03< Crab_> noy: define 'active developer'
20090428 21:20:22< Crab_> noy: 'at least 1 commit in last N months ?'
20090428 21:20:27< noy> lets say an contribution in the last three months
20090428 21:20:37< noy> brb
20090428 21:23:24-!- thespaceinvader [n=chatzill@wesnoth/artist/thespaceinvader] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090428 21:23:44< Crab_> noy: "git log 6f8f932bc1dc556bc8296afdec2a9055677993ae.. | grep Author | awk '{print $2}' | sort | uniq | wc -l " gives me 35 (where 6f8f932bc1dc556bc8296afdec2a9055677993ae is commit-id from 27.01.09)
20090428 21:24:51< noy> Crab_: ivanovic came up with 36
20090428 21:25:02< noy> so that makes alot of sense
20090428 21:25:10< Crab_> see http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m54f5c73b for names
20090428 21:25:29 * Ivanovic is a cheater and uses the list of cloaks he has...
20090428 21:25:31< Ivanovic> ^^
20090428 21:26:37< Crab_> Ivanovic: Sipr and dave are two different cloaks ?
20090428 21:26:45< Ivanovic> corn: and since you now have commit access, do you want to have a wesnoth cloak?
20090428 21:27:00< Ivanovic> Crab_: no, the irc user sirp has the cloak @wesnoth/developer/dave
20090428 21:27:32< noy> Crab_: and when you take into account I don't commit anything at all, that gives you 35. 
20090428 21:27:46 * noy is the worthless dev. 
20090428 21:27:46< Crab_> aha
20090428 21:28:00< Crab_> noy: being a dev is not only about committing :)
20090428 21:28:35< noy> I keep saying that while I cry myself to sleep at night
20090428 21:28:52< loonycyborg> Crab_: Yes. That's why your command pipeline isn't absolutely reliable at counting active devs :)
20090428 21:29:19< Crab_> loonycyborg: it is reliable :) what is *unreliable* is the definition of the 'active developer'
20090428 21:29:37-!- silene [n=plouf@wesnoth/developer/silene] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090428 21:29:38< Crab_> noy: well, we all know that "Instead, Noy makes his contribution in gameplay and multiplayer design, drawing upon his background in social sciences research, military strategy and playing games online, to understand the effects of development on the playing community behavior."
20090428 21:29:41< silene> hi
20090428 21:29:47< Crab_> hi silene
20090428 21:29:53< noy> I tell myself that too Crab_ 
20090428 21:29:58< noy> I wrote it :p
20090428 21:30:28< silene> Crab_: nice web database
20090428 21:31:15< Crab_> silene: thanks
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20090428 21:32:15< Crab_> silene: note the http://crab.terraninfo.net/data/misc/wesnoth_ai_test2.php?dim1=faction_me&latest_svn_only=yes - AI plays certain factions better than others
20090428 21:33:11< silene> Crab_: the contrary would have been surprising :-)
20090428 21:33:43< Crab_> silene: yes, but it is more significant that I've expected :)
20090428 21:34:30 * Soliton would have thought dwarves are best but undead make a lot of sense, too.
20090428 21:34:40< Crab_> and we still have formula_ai_stable > default_ai_stable, although it's closer to being equal....
20090428 21:34:47< Soliton> oh, actually northerner.
20090428 21:35:13< Ivanovic> hmm, northerners best even though the ai is not too good with poison?
20090428 21:35:15< Crab_> Soliton: well, it's only a measure of 'how well' AI plays the dwarves...
20090428 21:35:15< Soliton> hmm, that's surprising.
20090428 21:35:44< noy> well the number of units probably helps
20090428 21:36:16< Crab_> Ivanovic: AI is good with killing things. and it *takes* poison into account when figuring what to kill. it just underestimates the number of turns the unit will stay poisoned.
20090428 21:36:16< Soliton> Crab_: right, as someone who is partly responsible for the balance i did not think dwarves are best in general. ;-)
20090428 21:36:21< noy> also the fact that one of its main units are trolls
20090428 21:36:40< noy> trolls have a fairly good all around use
20090428 21:37:03< silene> Crab_: so, still no clue about the discrepancy between the two ais?
20090428 21:37:29< noy> typically when other factions buy high res units, they have serious flaws which the AI doesn't take into account
20090428 21:38:00< noy> like woses and HI
20090428 21:38:12< noy> trolls are pretty good all around, and fairly cheap
20090428 21:39:04< Crab_> silene: no. I even switched them around in my test script, to be sure I am not missing anything....
20090428 21:39:06< noy> The fact that the AI can flood a field with low quality units, lose a ton of them by poor play and keep on fighting, seems to me a reason why it would be better than with other factions
20090428 21:39:14< noy> Crab_: how did the loyalists do?
20090428 21:39:28< Crab_> noy: http://crab.terraninfo.net/data/misc/wesnoth_ai_test2.php?dim1=faction_me&latest_svn_only=yes
20090428 21:39:40< Crab_> noy: loyalists and rebels are worst...
20090428 21:39:51< noy> that would make a lot of sense
20090428 21:40:02< Crab_> also note the "Avg. turns to lose" )
20090428 21:40:12< Crab_> dwarves are resilient )
20090428 21:40:45< noy> Well I'd like to dig into the stats a bit more... something tells me that the UD skews this heavily
20090428 21:41:38< noy> because the rebels and loyalists probably have serious problems winning against a UD due to first turn recruiting problems
20090428 21:42:36< CIA-30> ivanovic * r35306 /trunk/po/ (wesnoth/ru.po wesnoth-editor/ru.po wesnoth-sof/ru.po): updated Russian translation
20090428 21:42:36< CIA-30> ivanovic * r35307 /branches/1.6/po/ (wesnoth/ru.po wesnoth-editor/ru.po wesnoth-sof/ru.po): updated Russian translation
20090428 21:42:48< noy> Crab_: yup....
20090428 21:42:52< Crab_> noy: see http://crab.terraninfo.net/data/misc/wesnoth_ai_test2.php?dim1=&dim2=faction_me&dim3=faction_enemy&latest_svn_only=yes
20090428 21:42:53< noy> Loyalists	Undead	16.2
20090428 21:43:48< silene> Crab_: where does the formula ai falls back to default ai?
20090428 21:44:48< noy> Crab_: is the first testing results for formula or default?
20090428 21:44:51< Crab_> silene: I've gdb'ed through formula_ai play_turn - nothing of interest... fallback is at src/ai/formula_ai.cpp:1896
20090428 21:45:05< noy> Crab_: I mean the first one you showed me
20090428 21:45:27< Crab_> noy: if the AI  is not written in a table, then it is "for all AIs" summed
20090428 21:46:25< Crab_> noy: you may group first by "AI config, my" or by "AI ident, my" to see for both ai's. but this is not needed, since that formula_ai has no formulas. it is (strangely) still slightly better.
20090428 21:46:37< noy> Crab_: http://crab.terraninfo.net/data/misc/wesnoth_ai_test2.php?dim1=faction_me&latest_svn_only=yes
20090428 21:46:40< noy> this table
20090428 21:46:51< noy> Its all AIs then?
20090428 21:46:55< Crab_> yes. 
20090428 21:47:06< Crab_> it is grouped by "faction, me" and has a filter "only from latest available svn" set.
20090428 21:47:23< Crab_> you may see this in a list of groups at the top (they allow to pick any grouping you want)
20090428 21:48:08< noy> Well reading into the stats, Loyalists are certainly skewed due to the UD matchup
20090428 21:48:22< noy> remove that and...
20090428 21:48:41< Crab_> noy: why not "Loyalists - Northerners" ?
20090428 21:49:12< Crab_> noy: Loyalist AI has 41.4 % to win vs Undead, but only 21.1% to win vs Northeners....
20090428 21:49:38< noy> its a more respectable 42%
20090428 21:49:51< noy> which chart are you looking at?
20090428 21:49:56< noy> I'm looking at default AI stable
20090428 21:50:44< silene> Crab_: just wondering, is the default ai properly initialized when run from formula ai? it would be a bit strange that "not configured" plays better than "configured", but who knows...
20090428 21:52:27< Crab_> noy: sorry, looked somewhere in wrong place
20090428 21:52:39< noy> Crab_: well I would surmise that AI northerner wins are based on actual playing attributes of the AI. UD wins vs loyalists are probably more due to bad opening turn recruits. IF you get 3 spearmen vs the UD, and they have three skeletons, you're boned. 
20090428 21:53:22< Crab_> noy: so, if we filter by side, too, then "Loyalists as side 2" will be better vs Undead ?
20090428 21:53:37< noy> hm?
20090428 21:53:40< YogiHH> mordante: anything speaking against adding a tstring include to a gui2 dialog?
20090428 21:54:07< Crab_> noy: see http://crab.terraninfo.net/data/misc/wesnoth_ai_test2.php?dim1=my_side&dim2=faction_me&dim3=faction_enemy&latest_svn_only=yes
20090428 21:54:28< YogiHH> mordante: err, gettext i mean
20090428 21:54:44< noy> hm.
20090428 21:54:56< Crab_> it has an additional grouping "by my side", so we can see distinct numbers for "Loyalist (side1) - Undead  (side2)" and "Loyalist (side2) - Undead  (side1)"
20090428 21:55:12< noy> this is human vs ai culled from the replay archive?
20090428 21:55:12< Crab_> for Loyalist in "Loyalist (side2) - Undead  (side1)" can see undead's recruits at turn 1
20090428 21:55:20< Crab_> noy: this is ai vs ai
20090428 21:55:23< noy> k
20090428 21:55:32< noy> AI sees everything?
20090428 21:55:37< Crab_> yes
20090428 21:55:40< Polarina> noy: No.
20090428 21:55:48< Crab_> Polarina: why ?
20090428 21:55:54< noy> Polarina: its this case
20090428 21:56:02< noy> 41%
20090428 21:56:04< Polarina> Crab_: The AI does not take advantage of information a normal human player wouldn't see.
20090428 21:56:09< benetnash> AI cannot see invisible units
20090428 21:56:14< Crab_> Polarina: it does. 
20090428 21:56:44< Crab_> benetnash: it sees all. it may choose to 'skip' invisible units in some places, but in some places it doesn't skip them. it is not 'enforced' in any way.
20090428 21:56:47< noy> Crab_: see now the disparity is much better. 
20090428 21:57:49< noy> AI has problems as drakes vs UD
20090428 21:58:33< Crab_> silene: I was wondering about 'proper initialization', too. but default AI and empty formula AI hold no internal state except the game state and team info , which is the same object for all ai's of the same side.
20090428 21:58:59< noy> Crab_: you should watch a game of world conquest with some top tier players... like happygrue (wintermute) and jb
20090428 21:59:05< Crab_> silene: so, if we set, say, "ai config parameter", it will be seen by all ai's of that side.
20090428 21:59:18< Soliton> Crab_: it should skip them pretty much anywhere. only exception is units threatening the leader, iirc.
20090428 21:59:18< noy> it might give you a better sense of the AI's actions
20090428 21:59:42< silene> Crab_: and i guess formula ai doesn't modify the parameters?
20090428 22:00:11< Crab_> silene: no
20090428 22:01:00< Soliton> Crab_: btw, be sure to check the scripts that make that page work into svn sometime.
20090428 22:01:22< Crab_> Soliton: yesterdays's version is in svn, in utils/ai_test
20090428 22:01:38< Soliton> i could also make a redirect to that page like aitest.wesnoth.org or so.
20090428 22:01:46< Soliton> Crab_: excellent.
20090428 22:01:58< Crab_> Soliton: aitest.wesnoth.org IN A 62.149.16.48
20090428 22:02:10< Soliton> i could.
20090428 22:02:17< Soliton> i didn't yet.
20090428 22:02:17< Crab_> thanks
20090428 22:02:28< Soliton> got a better name or is aitest good?
20090428 22:02:47< Crab_> will work for now )
20090428 22:03:22< Soliton> that's the base url, right? http://crab.terraninfo.net/data/misc/wesnoth_ai_test2.php
20090428 22:03:36< Soliton> or should i redirect somewhere else?
20090428 22:03:46< Crab_> Soliton: forget the url, setup a DNS "IN A" record. 
20090428 22:04:29< Soliton> i can't do that.
20090428 22:04:40< Crab_> Soliton: then redirect to wesnoth.terraninfo.net
20090428 22:05:16< Soliton> 403 Forbidden
20090428 22:05:23< Crab_> yes. will work in 10 minutes
20090428 22:05:30< Soliton> alright.
20090428 22:06:01< noy> Crab_: when you have a chance in the future... could you maybe work with me to troll the replay archive and see how people did vs AI 
20090428 22:06:27< noy> I'd be interested to know the results
20090428 22:06:38< Crab_> noy: yes, this is possible. it will require parsing the WML replays ?
20090428 22:07:20< noy> depends. I'd have to think about one scenario I'd like to test it on.
20090428 22:07:32< noy> and on the basis of that choice it might
20090428 22:07:43-!- cjhopman [n=chris@wesnoth/developer/cjhopman] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090428 22:08:43< Ivanovic> hi cjhopman
20090428 22:08:56< Ivanovic> cjhopman: what is the status of this patch, since you are assigned... https://gna.org/patch/?1139
20090428 22:09:13< noy> Crab_: because it would be worthless just to search the entire archive
20090428 22:09:26< Crab_> noy:  why worthless ?
20090428 22:09:35< Crab_> noy: we can group by map, as well.
20090428 22:09:37< Ivanovic> afk for a while
20090428 22:09:42< noy> the wide variety of AI uses we see
20090428 22:10:05< noy> I'm sure the AI wins more than it loses
20090428 22:11:36< Crab_> noy: well, if we create a way to find this info, we can search the whole archive as easily as one scenario. and then we can just 'extract' that information that you consider useful.
20090428 22:12:45< noy> the other problem is skill of player
20090428 22:12:52< CIA-30> jhinrichs * r35308 /trunk/ (7 files in 4 dirs): Moving the savefile overwrite dialog to gui2.
20090428 22:13:15< noy> humans are of variable skill, so the challenge is also to discriminate which matches matter
20090428 22:13:45< noy> I had an idea of using an upper level map of TL's World Conquest, but then I realized the factions for the AI are preset
20090428 22:20:08< noy> well I'm off people. 
20090428 22:20:13< noy> I need to do some work
20090428 22:20:16-!- noy [n=Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit ["GO, GET TO THE CHOPPAH!!!"]
20090428 22:20:31< Crab_> Soliton: ok, http://aitest.wesnoth.org should now work
20090428 22:21:01< Soliton> so it does.
20090428 22:21:30< Soliton> well, it shows anyway.
20090428 22:22:02< Soliton> i get "The requested URL /wesnoth_ai_test2.php was not found on this server." sometimes.
20090428 22:22:24< Crab_> try again
20090428 22:22:45< Crab_> Soliton: I've fixed this.
20090428 22:28:09-!- ivan_i [n=chatzill@ppp85-140-207-200.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20090428 22:33:05< CIA-30> jhinrichs * r35309 /trunk/src/ (6 files): Refactor savegame.cpp: Get rid of display references for the savegame class and move messages to gui2.
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20090428 22:57:43< YogiHH> night everyone
20090428 22:58:34-!- Turuk [n=Turuk@wesnoth/forumsith/turuk] has quit ["The man who smiles when things go wrong has thought of someone to blame it on."]
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20090428 22:59:31-!- boucman [n=rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090428 22:59:40< Crab_> hi boucman
20090428 22:59:43< boucman> hey all
20090428 22:59:53-!- happygrue_ [n=George@c-67-176-145-41.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20090428 23:01:30< mordante> YogiHH not sure what you mean with the gettext include in gui2
20090428 23:01:34-!- happygrue [n=George@wesnoth/developer/wintermute] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090428 23:02:37< boucman> Crab_: is nearest_keep documented in the wiki ?
20090428 23:02:53< Crab_> boucman: it is. but suitable_keep is not documented there yet. it will be.
20090428 23:05:53< boucman> k, thx
20090428 23:06:42< Crab_> boucman: done. thanks for reminding me about the wiki
20090428 23:07:41< boucman> np
20090428 23:13:43< CIA-30> mordante * r35310 /trunk/src/gui/dialogs/game_save.cpp: Fix a compiler warning.
20090428 23:15:33< CIA-30> mordante * r35311 /trunk/cmake/ShrinkImages.cmake: Don't scale the energy bar for tiny-gui.
20090428 23:16:00< Crab_> boucman: any more suggestions for ai testing stats page ?
20090428 23:16:14< boucman> lemme check the current state...
20090428 23:17:12-!- YaymeQ [n=chatzill@71.191.60.155] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090428 23:17:22< boucman> hmm
20090428 23:18:10< boucman> the "cheese" looks good, but does not add much, you might want to save that kind of graphical representation for something more usefull (I don't know what at that point)
20090428 23:18:26< Crab_> (the one with the cheese is the old one)
20090428 23:18:34< boucman> opps
20090428 23:18:36< Crab_> http://aitest.wesnoth.org/ is new one
20090428 23:18:42< boucman> I hadn't seen the link at the top
20090428 23:19:00< Crab_> boucman: yes, the lin at the top also leads to new one
20090428 23:19:05< Crab_> s/lin/link
20090428 23:19:09< Ivanovic> boucman: left you a message in the logs, just grep them for your nick
20090428 23:19:51< Ivanovic> beside this: might be a good idea to spend some time at patches.wesnoth.org at least posting comments on how close they are to inclusion and changing the status of those that need attention from the original poster to "need info"
20090428 23:20:23< Ivanovic> Crab_: what is the current status of https://gna.org/patch/?1169 ?
20090428 23:20:39< Ivanovic> (since it is assigned to you)
20090428 23:20:49< boucman> Crab_: i'd say it's "good enough" 
20090428 23:21:35< Crab_> Ivanovic: WIP by karl_m, so "In_progress" is ok. I think he will finish it and post a new version. then I'll test it and if it is ok I'll pass that patch to boucman.
20090428 23:21:37< boucman> in other word, we might have different needs that we discover while studying AIs and the presentation can probably be improved, but it's good enough at this point and i'd rather have you focus on other stuff
20090428 23:21:50< Ivanovic> okay
20090428 23:22:22< boucman> Ivanovic: mark as won't do... I guess OP will never finish it...
20090428 23:22:42< boucman> (answering to  https://gna.org/patch/?1028, btw)
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20090428 23:23:51< Crab_> boucman: ok. I'll add a bit more stuff there to allow some filtering (we will need it to test different things in parallel, storing the results in the same db)
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20090428 23:23:57< Ivanovic> boucman: done
20090428 23:24:30< Ivanovic> boucman: what is the status of the three velory patches in the tracker?
20090428 23:24:30< Crab_> boucman: for example, to allow viewing only the results of 'formula_ai_poisoning' Northerners vs 'formula_ai_stable' Northerers.
20090428 23:24:31< boucman> Crab_: ok, if you feel you need it... but at that point I would wait to see what will our need be rather than trying to guess them
20090428 23:24:36< boucman> hmm
20090428 23:24:57< boucman> I need to discuss them with DK, will probably be won't do, but I need to discuss first
20090428 23:25:00< Ivanovic> two of those three have no comment at all so far
20090428 23:25:04< Ivanovic> okay
20090428 23:25:13< boucman> Ivanovic: there was some IRC discuss
20090428 23:25:18< boucman> ion
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20090428 23:26:41< mordante> YogiHH when wesnoth asks me to overwrite a savegame at the end of a scenario it doesn't take no as an answer and keeps showing the dialog until I press ok
20090428 23:26:58< Crab_> boucman: note that I've reworked that frontend today, to allow easier extension. so, for example, adding another aggregate function is just '1-line fix'. so, if you think that something will be useful, suggest it - it might be easy to add.
20090428 23:27:20< Ivanovic> time for me to head off to bed, n8
20090428 23:27:26< mordante> night Ivanovic 
20090428 23:27:26< Crab_> night Ivanovic
20090428 23:27:28< boucman> not at that point, no...
20090428 23:27:31< Crab_> ok
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20090428 23:27:55< boucman> the next interesting feature would be a way to easily detect discrepencies, but I'm not sure that's easily feasible...
20090428 23:29:55< Crab_> boucman: feasible if someone actually says what tests are to be done...
20090428 23:30:48< boucman> well, things like "at rev XXX AI sudenly became much better using drakes...."
20090428 23:30:54< Crab_> boucman:  'actually saying' requires a good knowledge of statistics )))
20090428 23:31:31< boucman> indeed
20090428 23:31:52< boucman> well, let's keep that idea in mind, it's not something to implement right away right now
20090428 23:32:13< mordante> I'm also off, night
20090428 23:32:14< Crab_> boucman: so, I'll proceed to do the fork
20090428 23:32:18< Crab_> night mordante
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20090428 23:33:47< boucman> k, do you anticipate problems with that step ?
20090428 23:34:32< Crab_> boucman: no. but it will take time
20090428 23:34:37< boucman> k
20090428 23:35:06< boucman> Crab_: I will be here all day on friday (day off in france) but will be away the whole of next week
20090428 23:35:06< Crab_> boucman: since I want to fork as little 'ai-independent' stuff as possible.
20090428 23:35:33< Crab_> boucman: ok, thanks for warning about this.
20090428 23:36:48< Crab_> boucman: btw, have you looked at that table which groups our stats 'by faction' ?
20090428 23:37:06< Crab_> ( http://wesnoth.terraninfo.net/index.php?dim1=faction_me&latest_svn_only=yes )
20090428 23:37:43< boucman> Crab_: yes, I had
20090428 23:38:17< Crab_> boucman: and what is your opinion about the reasons of the situation we have there ?
20090428 23:38:23< boucman> the "imbalance" is only a semi-suprise, at the time wesnoth was originally created it was single player only
20090428 23:38:45< boucman> and northerners was meant to be an AI faction only, with all the simple to use powers (poison, regenerates)
20090428 23:39:00< Crab_> boucman: it may be not 'faction' inbalance.
20090428 23:39:08< boucman> whereas the rebels had all the complicated powers (heal, lead)
20090428 23:39:13< boucman> this might explain the huge per faction difference
20090428 23:40:06< boucman> Crab_: what do you think it is ?
20090428 23:41:34< Crab_> boucman: with dwarves, it seems that AI doesn't know how to attack efficiently. It is very resilient (21.2 avg turns to lose, same as northeners), but it can't win as easily asthem
20090428 23:43:42< Crab_> boucman: about loyalists and rebels.. harder to say... they have simular avg-turns-to-.. stats , so the problems might be simular
20090428 23:43:59< Crab_> noy said that their poor performance might be related with recruitment errors
20090428 23:45:06< Crab_> boucman: in this case, Dragonking's recruitment.fai  will (when it will be production-ready) allow us to improve them
20090428 23:47:42< Crab_> also, my_faction/turn distribution is interesting
20090428 23:48:07< Crab_> boucman: see http://wesnoth.terraninfo.net/index.php?dim1=faction_me&dim2=turn&latest_svn_only=yes
20090428 23:48:13< Crab_> and scroll to Loyalists
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20090428 23:50:24< Soliton> why do they have 2 wins after 5 and 0 wins after 8 games?
20090428 23:50:47< Crab_> Soliton: this is not 'games', this is 'turn of game end'
20090428 23:50:59< Soliton> ah, i see.
20090428 23:51:10< Crab_> Soliton: so, they lost 8 of 8 games which ended on turn 6
20090428 23:51:43< Crab_> their performance before turn 13 is very poor
20090428 23:52:10< Soliton> maybe they have generally weak leaders and are playing too risky.
20090428 23:52:31< Crab_> Soliton: how we can check that ?
20090428 23:52:45< Crab_> Soliton: we can output any kind of info each turn.. and log it to db at the end of the game
20090428 23:53:07< silene> Crab_: count the number of remaining units when the leader dies, it will tell you whether it was risky or not
20090428 23:53:08< Soliton> might be interesting to log how many units the loser had.
20090428 23:54:27< Crab_> silene, Soliton: thanks for the hint, it's easily doable. should I log just the number of units or their gold value or 'levels combined' or some other stat on them ?
20090428 23:54:29< Soliton> another interesting statistic might be village ownership.
20090428 23:54:52< Soliton> so you can see whether northerners always win by economy or so.
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20090428 23:56:11< Soliton> Crab_: gold value might be nice but number is still important.
20090428 23:56:21< silene> Crab_: i would just say the number of units; because one level-2 unit is not as good at two level-1 at protecting a leader
20090428 23:56:27< Crab_> Soliton: ok. 
20090428 23:56:50< Crab_> so, {"number of units", "total gold value of units", "number of villages"} at game end ?
20090428 23:57:27< Soliton> for the number of villages i was more thinking of a number each turn so you can see the progression there.
20090428 23:57:40< silene> number of villages at the end does not seem really useful; perhaps rather cumulated villages over the game
20090428 23:58:03< silene> (said otherwise, total income would be good)
20090428 23:58:51< Crab_> silene: so, {"number of units", "total gold value of units", "number of villages", "income" } at each turn per each side ?
20090428 23:59:13< silene> Crab_: seems good
20090428 23:59:23< silene> though the last two are redundant
--- Log closed Wed Apr 29 00:00:03 2009