--- Log opened Sun May 24 00:00:55 2009
20090524 00:03:14< KidpunkX> thanks
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20090524 00:22:54< CIA-77> soliton * r35849 /branches/1.6/data/tools/addon_manager/ (html.py style.css): added explanations for the different add-on types
20090524 00:23:03< CIA-77> soliton * r35850 /branches/1.6/src/addon_management.cpp: display the raw type string if we don't know the type and it's not empty
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20090524 00:25:00< CIA-77> soliton * r35851 /trunk/utils/mp-server/ (new_release run_server): made use of the readlink command
20090524 00:25:15< CIA-77> soliton * r35852 /trunk/utils/mp-server/create_symlinks: added a script to create some convenient symlinks
20090524 00:25:26< CIA-77> soliton * r35853 /trunk/data/tools/addon_manager/ (html.py style.css): added explanations for the different add-on types
20090524 00:25:34< CIA-77> soliton * r35854 /trunk/src/addon_management.cpp: display the raw type string if we don't know the type and it's not empty
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20090524 00:50:51< Ivanovic> this is a prototype for a perfect bug report in the forums... http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=25592&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
20090524 00:51:00< Ivanovic> especially have a look at "I'm sorry that i dont post more details but it will be too much of a bother to specify..."
20090524 00:52:48< loonycyborg> If it will be too much of a bother to specify then imagine how much a bother it will be to fix :)
20090524 00:53:41< Ivanovic> exactly
20090524 00:54:22 * Soliton thought it was too much of a bother to reply when he read that.
20090524 00:55:03 * Ivanovic thought it was funny enough to post it in here so others can enjoy it, too
20090524 01:01:29< CIA-77> noyga * r35855 /branches/1.6/po/ (wesnoth-manual/fr.po wesnoth-sotbe/fr.po): French translation update
20090524 01:07:20< Ivanovic> time to head off to bed, n8
20090524 01:09:46< Noyga> n8 too
20090524 01:09:48< CIA-77> noyga * r35856 /trunk/po/ (wesnoth-manual/fr.po wesnoth-sotbe/fr.po): French translation update
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20090524 01:25:08< Soliton> anyone know of a tool that works similar to tail -F but has some kind of limit on how many lines it prints "at once"? like when i log rotate and the "new" log already has lines it wouldn't print them all but just go to the end and tail from there on.
20090524 01:27:53< mjs-de> tail -f | more, just a guess but might work
20090524 01:28:28< Soliton> well, i want tail -F not -f. with -f there wouldn't be an issue.
20090524 01:29:03< crimson_penguin> what does -F do?
20090524 01:29:15< Soliton> follow the name not the descriptor.
20090524 01:29:28< crimson_penguin> ohhh
20090524 01:29:36< Soliton> so you can suddenly follow a completely different file.
20090524 01:29:42< crimson_penguin> right
20090524 01:30:55< Soliton> which is usually a new log file so it's fine to print all its contents but in my case it's an old log file that is still in use. now i want to start following its end but *not* print all of it when it first appears.
20090524 01:34:29< mjs-de> with tail -c +0 -F you should get all files from the beginning, but that could be more than you want
20090524 01:36:24< Soliton> i'm using tail -n 0 -F currently which is pretty much the same but has the aformentioned problem.
20090524 01:37:29< mjs-de> no ideas left
20090524 01:37:33< Soliton> ah, the + is differnt but exactly what i do not want.
20090524 01:38:27< Soliton> basically when a new file appears i want it to work as if i'd restart tail then.
20090524 01:39:51< Soliton> really it should be an option of tail but since it isn't i guess the chance is low that some other tool does it so i guess i'll have to script it...
20090524 01:50:10< Soliton> btw, the background is that we gracefully restart wesnothd which means the old instance keeps running for a while until everyone logged off. so when the new instance is started we're following the new log file which is fine. now i would also like to automatically follow the old log file since it's still being written to but if i keep a tail -F on the old log running it will print the whole session again before following the end of ...
20090524 01:50:16< Soliton> ... the file. so currently i have to manually start tail after the restart.
20090524 01:57:57< Soliton> ...and more importantly have to remember to kill it before the next restart. :-P (though i solved that now)
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20090524 02:06:35< mjs-de> killing should not be the problem, look at the --pid option
20090524 02:07:13< Soliton> yeah, that's what i use now.
20090524 02:09:09< Soliton> hmm, via screen i could also trigger the log tailing in irssi together with the restart command...
20090524 02:11:05< Soliton> that'd be better than having the tail process hanging around all the time anyway.
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20090524 04:00:23< CIA-77> soliton * r35857 /branches/1.6/src/addon_checks.cpp: made the add-on type case insensitive
20090524 04:00:31< CIA-77> soliton * r35858 /branches/1.6/data/tools/addon_manager/html.py: made the add-on type case insensitive
20090524 04:01:01< CIA-77> soliton * r35859 /trunk/src/addon_checks.cpp: made the add-on type case insensitive
20090524 04:01:07< CIA-77> soliton * r35860 /trunk/data/tools/addon_manager/html.py: made the add-on type case insensitive
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--- Log closed Sun May 24 05:33:29 2009
--- Log opened Sun May 24 05:33:29 2009
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--- Log closed Sun May 24 05:49:13 2009
--- Log opened Sun May 24 05:49:13 2009
--- Log closed Sun May 24 05:49:32 2009
--- Log opened Sun May 24 05:49:32 2009
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--- Log closed Sun May 24 06:49:23 2009
--- Log opened Sun May 24 06:49:23 2009
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20090524 08:57:09< mordante> morning
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20090524 09:06:32< mordante> Soliton, why did you make the MP type names case insensitive?
20090524 09:10:01< Soliton> mordante: there is at least one add-on on the server that uses wrong case. anything speaking for case sensitivity?
20090524 09:10:08< mordante> Shadow_Master it would be nice to know which new features it adds, I don't want to wait months before this issue gets resolved
20090524 09:10:39< mordante> Soliton, yes, that all of Wesnoth is case-sensitive so I rather keep it consistent
20090524 09:10:58< Soliton> well, that's not true.
20090524 09:11:11< mordante> O_O not?
20090524 09:12:35< Soliton> but most of WML seems to be. i'm wondering whether no one ever tried things like 'first_time_only = NO' and got surprised.
20090524 09:14:08< Soliton> i've recently made nearly everything in /query commands case insensitive and a couple of keys in the help are case insensitive as well.
20090524 09:14:53< mordante> I missed those commits, but I was mainly referring to WML 
20090524 09:15:46< mordante> and probably we had some people who got bitten by 'first_time_only = NO' but guess they learn quickly
20090524 09:16:11< mordante> (especially since we only use lowercase in WML and not CamelCase)
20090524 09:20:34< Soliton> well, i won't mind if we want to keep everything lowercase though i think interpreting NO as yes is rather unintuitive.
20090524 09:21:46< Soliton> of course interpreting any garbage as yes isn't that different.
20090524 09:23:42-!- euschn [n=chatzill@wesnoth/developer/euschn] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090524 09:23:43< Soliton> btw, there is a to_lower() function in help. is there any use for that or should just utils::lowercase() be used?
20090524 09:23:44< euschn> hi
20090524 09:23:50< Soliton> hi euschn
20090524 09:24:30< mordante> Soliton, I was wondering just the same, I ran into it as well with grepping ;-)
20090524 09:24:34< mordante> hi euschn 
20090524 09:27:05< Soliton> the thing with addon type is that you see the type "Campaign" in the list and just use that for your addon as well and then it's not recognised. of course that doesn't work with "MP Campaign" even case insensitively...
20090524 09:28:51< mordante> I assume you talking about the web interface now?
20090524 09:29:07< Soliton> either.
20090524 09:29:18< Soliton> the web interface just very recently.
20090524 09:29:30< Soliton> it displayed the raw string before.
20090524 09:29:42< mordante> in the game the name is translated to a translatable string so the issue is not there
20090524 09:30:03< Soliton> ..if you use a translation.
20090524 09:30:19< Soliton> and those strings have been translated.
20090524 09:31:12< mordante> I assume the original English in game also uses a sane display... (assumtion of course is the mother of all screwups... so restarting Wesnoth)
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20090524 09:31:25< Soliton> not sure what you mean with that.
20090524 09:31:39< Soliton> "Campaign" is sane, no?
20090524 09:32:27< mordante> yes
20090524 09:32:56< Soliton> well, no idea what you're getting at then.
20090524 09:33:22< mordante> I'm a bit confused, the value in the addon is not shown directly in game but converted to a nice human readable string
20090524 09:34:03< mordante> so what does it matter for the user that the underlaying WML uses campaign, C or 1 to identify the type?
20090524 09:34:33< Soliton> i wasn't talking about a user but an addon author.
20090524 09:36:08< mordante> ah ok I thought you talked about the user
20090524 09:37:21< mordante> still I think authors should be aware all WML is lowercase and only use that
20090524 09:38:05< mordante> if we start to allow case-insensitive at some places, the at some point start to expect that it works everywhere
20090524 09:38:40< mordante> what is a path I rather not head
20090524 09:38:45< mordante> which*
20090524 09:40:49< Soliton> why?
20090524 09:41:45< mordante> since it will be a lot of work to find all cases which are case sensitive and which cases are not
20090524 09:42:04< mordante> we're humans so will miss cases which leads to subtile breakage
20090524 09:42:17< mordante> (the string_bool not used everywhere comes to mind)
20090524 09:43:10< mordante> further the startup of Wesnoth is already deemed slow by a lot of users, converting to lowercase will add more work to do and thus more slowing down
20090524 09:43:54< mordante> (of course I didn't profile this so not sure how big the slowdown is, but still I see no use to slow-down a slow process further)
20090524 09:44:04< Soliton> clearly not using string_bool is a bug either way so quite irrelevant.
20090524 09:44:24< Soliton> performance might be a concern though, yeah.
20090524 09:45:02< mordante> it's _not_ irrelevant, it's a conversion which got forgotten at a few places, it's an example that conversions can lead to bugs
20090524 09:46:00< Soliton> right ok, so better not use string_bool at all.
20090524 09:47:33< mordante> no I didn't say that, what I mean that when we converted calls from their old checks to the 'new' string_bool some places get forgotten and cause subtile issues
20090524 09:47:47< Soliton> it's irrelevant because if you don't use string_bool it doesn't matter how the function works.
20090524 09:48:05< Soliton> the subtle issue is already there.
20090524 09:49:43< mordante> yes which got resolved, my point is if you start to allow uppercase a lot of users will still use lowercase and suddenly something breaks since we forgot to convert a function and a user just happened to use upper case
20090524 09:50:30< mordante> with this change you _will_ introduce subtile bugs, which will bite us in the behind a few months/years from now
20090524 09:50:45< Soliton> it will break just as well when he uses "true" where "yes" is expected...
20090524 09:51:29< mordante> of course, the string_bool was an example of how such a change will cause bugs over several years
20090524 09:51:38< Soliton> and all of those bugs don't bite us but UMC authors.
20090524 09:52:04< mordante> with string_bool I see a real benefit, with uppercase not
20090524 09:52:17< mordante> no it will bite us, since we'll get bug reports
20090524 09:52:49< Soliton> like the numerous bug reports about missing string_bool.
20090524 09:52:58< mordante> I see uppercase as a feature that slows down Wesnoth and will cause more maintenance work and I see no real benefit
20090524 09:53:11< Soliton> sure, i'm fine with that argument.
20090524 09:53:26< mordante> yes exactly like string_bool, only with string_bool I see the benefit
20090524 09:54:07< Soliton> ok, i must have missed those.
20090524 09:55:14< mordante> the engine used different values at different places yes/no and 1/0 at others
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20090524 10:32:19< Ivanovic> moin
20090524 10:35:32< mordante> hi Ivanovic 
20090524 10:36:11< Soliton> zookeeper, Ivanovic: any opinions about case sensitivity of WML? case in point is the type= key of .pbl files.
20090524 10:37:21< Ivanovic> hmm, good question
20090524 10:37:47< Ivanovic> already right now we do have problems from users typing path names caseinsensitive
20090524 10:38:19< Ivanovic> so having only paths case sensitive and all the rest insensitive sounds like a bad thing for me, better make everything case sensitive
20090524 10:38:37< Ivanovic> then we can just say "everything in wml is case sensitive, so take care!"
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20090524 10:39:40< Soliton> then the windows users say: but path names are not, it works either way! :-P
20090524 10:40:01< Ivanovic> windows users are wrong, because it does not *always* work
20090524 10:40:21< Ivanovic> the problem is just that windows is broken (and macosx by default, too)
20090524 10:40:22< mordante> which reminds me of all those broken webpages created on windows ;-)
20090524 10:40:55< zookeeper> Soliton, hard to say...
20090524 10:41:06< zookeeper> it sounds like a bit of a can of worms to me
20090524 10:42:05< zookeeper> many key values are recognized both by the engine (could easily be made insensitive) but also for example filtered for directly in WML
20090524 10:43:09< zookeeper> well. eh, have to think about it.
20090524 10:43:31< Soliton> well, it sounds like no one is really in favor.
20090524 10:44:53< zookeeper> wait. are you asking about making it case sensitive or insensitive? i guess i might not even know which it is now, although i'm guessing sensitive.
20090524 10:45:20< Soliton> yeah, pretty much everything is case sensitive.
20090524 10:45:47< Soliton> a couple of keys in help WML and the type key of pblWML is insensitive atm.
20090524 10:45:53< Soliton> probably nothing else.
20090524 10:46:23< Ivanovic> no matter what we do i do vote for making it uniform
20090524 10:46:41< zookeeper> so the problem is that add-on authors are being so dumb they don't even check what values type= can take or what?
20090524 10:46:53< mordante> yep
20090524 10:46:53< Ivanovic> so either everything case sensitive or insensitive (okay, when it comes to insensitive file names are exceptions...)
20090524 10:46:59< Soliton> unbelievable, right?!
20090524 10:47:58< zookeeper> disallow uploading if using an invalid value? wasn't that supposed to be the case anyway?
20090524 10:48:26< mordante> not sure but might be it was the plan at some point
20090524 10:48:37< Soliton> maybe. but i do like people making up their own values like "survival".
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20090524 10:49:01< Soliton> it's hard to forsee all useful categories.
20090524 10:49:16 * zookeeper shrugs
20090524 10:49:27< mordante> I prefer them to use other and ask them to include that type
20090524 10:49:47< Soliton> there is no other.
20090524 10:49:54< mordante> this way we can try to keep things translated
20090524 10:50:15< mordante> in my original proposal there was, especially for that reason :-(
20090524 10:50:43< zookeeper> i don't like being able to make up values, because then people will just use that in stupid ways and all add-ons there are fit neatly into the existign categories anyway
20090524 10:50:46< zookeeper> survivals are MP scenarios
20090524 10:51:10< zookeeper> anyway, i gotta run, back sometime tonight
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20090524 10:51:19< Soliton> a large part of them... but yeah.
20090524 10:52:17< Soliton> ah well, i suppose we might as well enforce known types and wait for somebody to propose more if there is a need.
20090524 10:54:10< Soliton> mordante: what's the name of the other type? other, misc, ...?
20090524 10:56:26< mordante> other
20090524 10:56:52< mordante> at least that was in my proposal, not sure whether Shadow_Master implemented it that way
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20090524 11:07:46< Soliton> ok, i'll revert a couple of my recent commits, add the "other" category, remove the case insensitive stuff from help (together with to_lower()) and make campaignd enforce known types.
20090524 11:08:19< Ivanovic> great
20090524 11:10:56< mordante> thanks
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20090524 11:54:10< CIA-77> soliton * r35861 /branches/1.6/data/tools/addon_manager/html.py: Revert "made the add-on type case insensitive"
20090524 11:54:17< CIA-77> soliton * r35862 /branches/1.6/src/addon_checks.cpp: Revert "made the add-on type case insensitive"
20090524 11:54:35< CIA-77> soliton * r35863 /branches/1.6/src/addon_management.cpp: Revert "display the raw type string if we don't know the type and it's not empty"
20090524 11:54:39< CIA-77> soliton * r35864 /branches/1.6/src/campaign_server/campaign_server.cpp: made it so add-ons with an unknown type get rejected
20090524 11:55:12< CIA-77> soliton * r35865 /trunk/data/tools/addon_manager/html.py: Revert "made the add-on type case insensitive"
20090524 11:55:19< CIA-77> soliton * r35866 /trunk/src/addon_checks.cpp: Revert "made the add-on type case insensitive"
20090524 11:55:24< CIA-77> soliton * r35867 /trunk/src/addon_management.cpp: Revert "display the raw type string if we don't know the type and it's not empty"
20090524 11:55:40< CIA-77> soliton * r35868 /trunk/src/ (addon_checks.cpp addon_checks.hpp addon_management.cpp): added a "other" add-on type for those that fit no where else
20090524 11:55:48< CIA-77> soliton * r35869 /trunk/src/help.cpp: removed forlorn case insensitive WML handling
20090524 11:55:53< CIA-77> soliton * r35870 /trunk/src/campaign_server/campaign_server.cpp: made it so add-ons with an unknown type get rejected
20090524 11:59:35< Soliton> campaign servers restarted.
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--- Log opened Sun May 24 12:40:07 2009
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20090524 12:41:44< Crab_> hi
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20090524 12:46:40< mordante> hi Crab_ 
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20090524 12:47:20< Crab_> hi mordante
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--- Log opened Sun May 24 13:18:01 2009
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20090524 13:32:05< CIA-77> ivanovic * r35871 /trunk/ (5 files in 4 dirs): updated Chinese (Traditional) translation
20090524 13:32:08< CIA-77> ivanovic * r35872 /branches/1.6/po/ (3 files in 3 dirs): updated Chinese (Traditional) translation
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20090524 15:49:13< CIA-77> mordante * r35873 /trunk/src/gui/widgets/generator_private.hpp: Implement select_action::tshow::select for tgenerator.
20090524 15:49:42< CIA-77> mordante * r35874 /trunk/src/CMakeLists.txt: 
20090524 15:49:42< CIA-77> Fix a strict compilation error with cmake.
20090524 15:49:42< CIA-77> I'm not entirely sure about this commit so if things break, try to
20090524 15:49:42< CIA-77> revert this. It fixes compilation on Ivanovic's system.
20090524 15:49:48< CIA-77> mordante * r35875 /trunk/src/gui/widgets/widget.cpp: Add some more assertions.
20090524 15:49:51< CIA-77> mordante * r35876 /trunk/src/gui/widgets/control.cpp: Remove an no longer needed test.
20090524 15:49:56< CIA-77> mordante * r35877 /trunk/src/gui/widgets/ (5 files): 
20090524 15:49:56< CIA-77> Widget visible helper function cleanup [1/2].
20090524 15:49:56< CIA-77> Remove twidget::is_visible(). The function is not really useful with the
20090524 15:49:56< CIA-77> hidden visibility status since it's not directly clear when something is
20090524 15:49:57< CIA-77> visible or invisible, so rather explicitely test for values.
20090524 15:49:59< CIA-77> Part 2 will remove twidget::is_invisible().
20090524 15:50:03< CIA-77> mordante * r35878 /trunk/src/gui/widgets/ (grid.cpp widget.cpp widget.hpp): Widget visible helper function cleanup [2/2].
20090524 15:50:07< CIA-77> mordante * r35879 /trunk/src/dialogs.cpp: Fix the markup in the objectives.
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20090524 18:09:13-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 61 bugs, 241 feature requests, 12 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20090524 19:37:45< mordante> I'm off bye
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20090524 20:45:59< CIA-77> reisiger * r35880 /trunk/projectfiles/VC9/wesnoth.vcproj: Updated VC9's wesnoth.vcproj to add missing files.
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20090524 21:53:11< dfranke> corn.summon()
20090524 21:53:54< dfranke> corn: I got your messages from the other day
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20090524 21:59:20< dfranke> corn: the sequence you want to do things sounds good, though I would split the CSS work into two phases.  First get it presentable and make that a high priority, then get it pretty and make that a lower one.
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--- Log closed Mon May 25 00:00:05 2009