--- Log opened Sun May 31 00:00:38 2009
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20090531 00:12:51< dfranke> foo.  It's not emacs, it's my keyboard.
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20090531 02:26:41< CIA-77> soliton * r35956 /branches/1.6/src/server/ (ban.cpp server.cpp): clarified ban error messages
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20090531 03:03:01< Shadow_Master> esr: I never expected such a pathetic bug report (13601) from you.
20090531 03:03:46< Shadow_Master> luckily, it's easy to reproduce and I don't need the saved game (which can't be downloaded) either. But I'd been easier if I had a backtrace _in_ the report
20090531 03:04:41< esr> I'd have included one if I were on my own machine, sorry.
20090531 03:05:09< esr> Don't have my full toolkit over there - and it did seem like it would be trivial to reproduce.
20090531 03:05:43< CIA-77> cornmander * r35957 /website/stats.wesnoth.org/ (4 files in 3 dirs): started work on database-defined views
20090531 03:05:58< CIA-77> soliton * r35958 /trunk/src/server/ (ban.cpp server.cpp): clarified ban error messages
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20090531 03:10:26< Shadow_Master> last time I made a debug build was on january *sighs*
20090531 03:11:09< Shadow_Master> too bad I can't use multiple processes for those
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20090531 03:27:14< [Relic]> Hello :)
20090531 03:27:48< Shadow_Master> #3  0x0000000000a61875 in config::has_attribute (this=0x0, ... <- uh oh
20090531 03:29:46< Shadow_Master> a vconfig has a NULL config attached. That's the issue
20090531 03:29:57< Shadow_Master> I forgot that that was possible. Fixing..
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20090531 03:39:24< CIA-77> shadowmaster * r35959 /trunk/ (changelog players_changelog src/storyscreen/part.cpp): 
20090531 03:39:24< CIA-77> Avoid dereferencing NULL underlying configs from vconfig objects, in the
20090531 03:39:24< CIA-77> storyscreen WML resolver procedure.
20090531 03:39:24< CIA-77> Fixes bug #13601.
20090531 03:41:11< CIA-77> shadowmaster * r35960 /trunk/changelog: Forgot to attach a bug number in a changelog entry at r35959.
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20090531 03:45:47< CIA-77> shadowmaster * r35961 /trunk/src/storyscreen/ (part.cpp part.hpp): Moved around some misplaced documentation.
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20090531 04:54:40< ]Relic[> Hello :)
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20090531 07:01:37< mordante> morning
20090531 07:05:45< mordante> Shadow_Master, raising the bar for good bug reports? ;-)
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20090531 07:49:36< CIA-77> mordante * r35962 /trunk/src/tests/ (6 files in 3 dirs): 
20090531 07:49:37< CIA-77> A fake screen needs a fixed size.
20090531 07:49:37< CIA-77> Before the size was inherited, which lead to subtile breakage with some, not
20090531 07:49:37< CIA-77> yet committed, tests.
20090531 08:00:33< CIA-77> mordante * r35963 /trunk/src/game_display.hpp: Remove some useless trailing semicolons.
20090531 08:00:38< CIA-77> mordante * r35964 /trunk/src/ (gui/dialogs/dialog.cpp tests/gui/test_gui2.cpp): 
20090531 08:00:38< CIA-77> Make sure a dialog is not shown on a faked screen.
20090531 08:00:38< CIA-77> cjhopman discovered the problem when running Wesnoth with --no-gui.
20090531 08:03:43< CIA-77> cornmander * r35965 /website/stats.wesnoth.org/ (129 files in 31 dirs): port to turbogears 2 -> much better debugging features and better URL generation control
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20090531 10:44:05< mordante> wesbot, seen ancestral
20090531 10:44:14< mordante> wesbot: seen ancestral
20090531 10:44:14< wesbot> mordante: The person with the nick ancestral 1d 7h ago was here and on the channel #wesnoth with the message: Client Quit
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20090531 11:09:24< Ivanovic> moin
20090531 11:12:04< mordante> hi Ivanovic 
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20090531 12:02:30< Ivanovic> mordante: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=25686&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
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20090531 12:03:37< Ivanovic> mordante: sounds strange to me
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20090531 12:09:13-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 59 bugs, 241 feature requests, 12 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20090531 12:21:41< mordante> Ivanovic, it might have something to do with YogiHH's savegame chagnes
20090531 12:21:49< mordante> changes*
20090531 12:22:03< Ivanovic> right, might be possible
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20090531 13:31:29< CIA-77> mordante * r35966 /trunk/data/campaigns/An_Orcish_Incursion/scenarios/7_Showdown.cfg: 
20090531 13:31:29< CIA-77> Rename Rualsha-Tan to Rualsha.
20090531 13:31:29< CIA-77> He's called Rualsha during the entire campaign.
20090531 13:31:34< CIA-77> mordante * r35967 /trunk/data/campaigns/An_Orcish_Incursion/scenarios/ (3 files): Fix some typos.
20090531 13:33:19< mordante> Ivanovic, regarding 35967 does it need to be added to pofix?
20090531 13:33:40< Ivanovic> hmm, heh, good question
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20090531 13:33:51< Ivanovic> i *think* they should be added, please ask esr to do so
20090531 13:34:11< mordante> esr, can you add the changes of 35967 to pofix
20090531 13:34:20< Ivanovic> (not sure what exactly has to be changed, if adding the strings in the textdomain area is enough or if more is required)
20090531 13:34:48< mordante> me neither
20090531 13:35:21< mordante> not even sure what exactly is pofix worthy and what not
20090531 13:35:47< Ivanovic> stuff not changing the meaning is worth to be added to pofix
20090531 13:36:36< Ivanovic> with other words: new/changed names should *not* be added to pofix where typo/grammar and other such tiny fixes should be added
20090531 13:37:03< mordante> yeah I thought so that's why I separated 35966
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20090531 13:48:52< CIA-77> mordante * r35968 /trunk/src/gui/dialogs/campaign_selection.cpp: Fix a copy paste error.
20090531 13:48:57< CIA-77> mordante * r35969 /trunk/src/gui/dialogs/campaign_selection.cpp: 
20090531 13:48:57< CIA-77> Capture campaign list by default.
20090531 13:48:57< CIA-77> Also add some comment.
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20090531 15:24:36< CIA-77> mordante * r35970 /trunk/src/gui/widgets/generator_private.hpp: Whitespace cleanup.
20090531 15:24:44< CIA-77> mordante * r35971 /trunk/src/gui/widgets/ (generator.cpp generator.hpp generator_private.hpp): 
20090531 15:24:44< CIA-77> Implement NEW_request_reduce_width in the generator.
20090531 15:24:44< CIA-77> This allows the campaign dialog to no longer to use the entire width but
20090531 15:24:44< CIA-77> to nicely wrap.
20090531 15:24:51< CIA-77> mordante * r35972 /trunk/data/gui/default/window/campaign_dialog.cfg: 
20090531 15:24:51< CIA-77> Polish the new campaign dialog a bit more.
20090531 15:24:51< CIA-77> Add some spacing and remove some obsolete code.
20090531 15:24:59< CIA-77> mordante * r35973 /trunk/src/gui/widgets/generator.cpp: 
20090531 15:24:59< CIA-77> Set all independant wigets to the same size.
20090531 15:24:59< CIA-77> This fixes some redraw glitches, before some parts weren't properly
20090531 15:24:59< CIA-77> cleaned.
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20090531 17:39:12< esr> mordante: ping?
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20090531 17:43:02< mordante> esr, pong
20090531 17:44:26< Shadow_Master> point for mordante!
20090531 17:44:33< mordante> :-)
20090531 17:45:53< esr> mordante: Two of those changes are unnecessary for good eEnglish.  Do you want me to (a) revert, (b) explain why, ir both?
20090531 17:46:31< mordante> esr, which ones and why?
20090531 17:47:47< esr> mordante: r35967. Explanation follows,,,
20090531 17:48:15< mordante> I assumed that commit, I wondered about which two changes
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20090531 17:50:39< esr> "These whelps are not individually very dangerous" -> "These whelps are not very dangerous individually". Both orderings are correct; I would say the firsrt one is slightly better in this context, because of where it puts the emphasis.
20090531 17:51:05< esr> Second change is an improvement.
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20090531 17:53:54< esr> Third change involved a usage distinction subtle enough that native speakers often miss it.  The difference between "the elvbish resistence crumbled" and "elvish resistence crumbled" is that one suggests a particular contingent instance of elvish resistence (like one vignette on the battlefield) while the version without "the" suggests a more general and tragic collapse. 
20090531 17:54:28< esr> This has beenm your English pedabtry for the day. :-)
20090531 17:54:44< esr> s/pedabtry/pedantry/
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20090531 17:57:09< mordante> shouldn't it then be "elvish resistences crumbled" ?
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20090531 17:58:22< esr> No.  "resistence" is in this use a mass noun. Pluralization is unnecessary and would in factbe bad usage.
20090531 17:58:30< mordante> ok
20090531 17:59:32< esr> I would revert 1, keep 2, and the third is a judgment call - I'd lean towards reverting to minimize translator work.
20090531 17:59:34< mordante> in that case feel free to revert those changes, 
20090531 18:00:03< mordante> well I wanted to ask you to use pofix to minimize the work for the translators ;-)
20090531 18:00:47< mordante> you're the native speaker so I leave 3 to you
20090531 18:00:48< esr> OK, and note that I gave you explanation because your Englisgh is good enough that I don't thinkl the efffort is wasted.  I know native speakers for whom I wouldn't have bothered, so feel complimented.
20090531 18:00:58< mordante> thanks :-)
20090531 18:01:28< esr> I'll recvert two of those and tun pofix.
20090531 18:01:43< mordante> thanks
20090531 18:01:44< esr> And maybe even learn to type...
20090531 18:01:53< mordante> :-D
20090531 18:02:14< mordante> another question about the English language
20090531 18:02:18< esr> ?
20090531 18:02:26< mordante> what would be the proper version of the following
20090531 18:03:10< mordante> "We could...yes we really could." "We could... yes we really could." "We could...Yes we really could." "We could... Yes we really could."
20090531 18:03:40 * mordante guesses some people get a deja vu ;-)
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20090531 18:05:16< esr> mordante: We're into some deep waters here.  For starters, note that there are twophilosophical schools of punctuation in English that would give slighly different answers here. Explanation...
20090531 18:06:11< esr> 1. The majority school regards punctuation as a sort of phrase structure marker, part of written grammer.  They tend tyo have very tight usage rules.
20090531 18:08:03< esr> 2.  There's a minority camo that considers punctuation to be more like speech rhythm and intonation markers.  I belong to this camp.  We tend to go by wahat sounds right when the written sentence  is spoken and to have more relaxed rules about punctuation usage.
20090531 18:08:58< esr> For the phrase-structure crowd, only one of these would be correct - probably the first.
20090531 18:09:00< silene> mordante: is the objectives box supposed to look good currently? for instance, the one from the tutorial (if yes, there may be yet another discrepancy in the pango versions since it looks broken here)
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20090531 18:09:34 * crimson_penguin will go with #2
20090531 18:09:54< crimson_penguin> would*
20090531 18:10:00< esr> For the intonation crowd (including me) all four could be correct attempts to express slightly different patterns pof speeed and emphasis in the spolen utterance.
20090531 18:10:12< esr> s/spolen/spoken/
20090531 18:11:21< esr> For example: space after the ellipsis suggests a slightly longer speech pause.
20090531 18:11:30< loonycyborg> esr: Russian language supports only 1st view. :P
20090531 18:12:51< esr> loonycyborg: Some people would say English only supports the first as well.  Some people aren't waware of the intonastion theory at alll - which is odd bevause historically it came first.
20090531 18:13:02< mordante> ok, I was asking since we seen to use different versions in Wesnoth and wondered whether it was wrong or not
20090531 18:14:06< esr> mordante: A strict phrase-structure punctuationist would say three of them are wrong, but different subschools would argue over which is "correct".  I take a more relaxed view.
20090531 18:14:27< mordante> :-) 
20090531 18:15:13< mordante> silene, looks fine for me, can you paste a screenshot?
20090531 18:15:42< esr> Note, BTW,. that everybody gets taught the phrase-structure theory in school, but people who are really able writers tend to arrive at the intonation theory through practice.
20090531 18:16:07< loonycyborg> Anyway, all english language textbooks I read imply that English has much more freeform rules for punctuation, so you can stick commas pretty much, anywhere :P
20090531 18:16:53< esr> loonycyborg: Comma punctuation is where the phrase-structure rules are loosest, that is quite true.
20090531 18:17:38< silene> mordante: http://imagebin.org/50996 (and in case you wonder, changing the language doesn't help)
20090531 18:19:01< esr> loonycyborg: Have yo ever been around when I've muttered about "German comma disease"?
20090531 18:19:52< mordante> well most of the German translators seem to have the disease not to place them ;-)
20090531 18:21:06< esr> Or to put them in places an English speaker finds incorrect.  It's one of the easy ways to spot typing with a German accent.  Ivanovic used to do it a lot; he's gotten better. 
20090531 18:21:07< Chusslove> Ah, the German comma. Better tie my shoelaces, I'll trip less that way.
20090531 18:22:19< esr> Note: All of the distinctions I'm talking about are top-5% stuff - you have to be *really* fluent before they matter a lot.
20090531 18:22:45< mordante> Chusslove, well we get a lot of patches which mainly fix comma's in the German translation ;-)
20090531 18:22:49< Chusslove> German is very practical: if we need to have capital letters, let's just make every noun like that and noone has to wonder; if we have to have commas, let's just prescribe words after which the come and noone has to wonder.
20090531 18:23:03< Chusslove> *they
20090531 18:23:20< esr> So don't worry about getting these things wrong, they're more final polish than nuts and bolts.
20090531 18:23:36< silene> mordante: could you post a screenshot of your objective box, so that i know how it supposed to look like when it works?
20090531 18:23:38< mordante> Chusslove, English used to have that as well 
20090531 18:25:22< esr> ...in some dialects.
20090531 18:27:07< mordante> I've seen it in Scotland on an old armory 
20090531 18:27:23< mordante> silene, just testing with the old code to see the differences
20090531 18:28:14< esr> mordante: No doubt.  The capitalize-everything quirk is more likely to show on monumentalk inscriptions.  Especially, like, 16th- and 17th-century ones.
20090531 18:28:40< esr> s/monumentalk/monumental/
20090531 18:29:58< esr> Ah, now here's a rare Mordante usage error: "mainly fix comma's"  Never use apopstrophe before s for plural!
20090531 18:30:39 * esr is in full grammar-Nazi mode now, watch out!
20090531 18:30:58< Chusslove> Well... the way I got it, lowercase letters are a fairly recent invention, so old stuff was always single-case, which means uppercase for Latin-derived scripts.
20090531 18:31:17< mordante> ah yes you're right
20090531 18:32:02< esr> Chusslove: Yes, but word-capping is different, historically, from all-uppercase.
20090531 18:32:05< mordante> silene, you're right there are some extra empty lines
20090531 18:33:23< Chusslove> Word-capping?
20090531 18:33:36< esr> Capitalization Like This.
20090531 18:33:46< Chusslove> Ah.
20090531 18:35:51< CIA-77> silene * r35974 /trunk/data/lua/wml-tags.lua: Removed some newlines, as Pango markup can't cope with them. It still looks bad, but not so bad.
20090531 18:40:55< mordante> silene, I look at the raw text of the objectives and rather think the old markup failed to do the right thing (last line also ends with newline) http://paste.debian.net/37616/
20090531 18:41:16< mordante> of course I can add that quirk
20090531 18:41:29< mordante> can and should
20090531 18:41:40< silene> mordante: no need to, i have removed these extra new lines
20090531 18:42:09< mordante> there might be more places in the engine that expect that feature
20090531 18:42:32< mordante> and in the end I want to replace all wesnoth markup with real pango markup
20090531 18:42:47< silene> mordante: i think it is better to have empty lines that are significant than the contrary; i don't want people to have to put some invisible character for a line to be output
20090531 18:44:30< mordante> I agree; however I try to duplicate the old behaviour so should also mimic this quirk
20090531 18:45:59< silene> anyway, any objection to switching the objective box to pango markup?
20090531 18:47:09< mordante> no not at all, I added a todo in the code for that reason
20090531 18:48:09< silene> i will do it then
20090531 18:48:19< mordante> ok
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20090531 18:49:22< mordante> silene,  you can ask esr to modify wmllint so the old objectives text is also converted to the pango formatting
20090531 18:50:08< silene> i don't think it is needed, it seems the translatable strings were markup-free
20090531 18:50:42< mordante> I'm quite sure they aren't, ran into them in the German translation
20090531 18:51:22< mordante> and some authors do it nicer »"@" + _"Bonus foo"« so it won't show up in the translation
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20090531 19:02:20< CIA-77> mordante * r35975 /trunk/src/gui/widgets/ (generator.cpp generator.hpp generator_private.hpp): Implement NEW_request_reduce_height in the generator.
20090531 19:20:34< CIA-77> silene * r35976 /trunk/src/scripting/lua.cpp: Added conversion to string for translatable strings.
20090531 19:20:38< CIA-77> silene * r35977 /trunk/ (data/lua/wml-tags.lua src/dialogs.cpp): Converted objective dialog box to Pango markup.
20090531 19:31:09< CIA-77> silene * r35978 /trunk/src/multiplayer_connect.cpp: Converted default MP objectives to Pango markup.
20090531 19:32:55< CIA-77> silene * r35979 /trunk/src/dialogs.cpp: Removed obsolete todo.
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20090531 19:45:49< euschn> hi
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20090531 19:50:29< mordante> hi euschn 
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20090531 20:47:06< Soliton> when is std::bad_alloc thrown? does the OS say "no, i can't give you that memory"?
20090531 20:49:37< Soliton> wesnothd just ran out of memory although there was some free/cached memory that should have been available unless there was a huge request? http://www.wesnoth.org/cgi-bin/collection3/bin/index.cgi?hostname=wesnoth.wesnoth.org&plugin=load&plugin=memory&plugin=processes&timespan=86400&action=show_selection&ok_button=OK
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20090531 20:52:55< CIA-77> mordante * r35980 /trunk/ (14 files in 8 dirs): 
20090531 20:52:55< CIA-77> Add a new real multi page widget and use it.
20090531 20:52:55< CIA-77> It's used in the campaign dialog, this change breaks the unit tests for small
20090531 20:52:55< CIA-77> gui and small gui since UTBS won't fit in the available space. This will be
20090531 20:52:55< CIA-77> fixed later.
20090531 20:54:33< mordante> Soliton, if wesnothd asks a more memory as available it might indeed directly throw a std::bad_allow
20090531 20:54:40< mordante> bad_alloc*
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20090531 20:55:30< Soliton> well, looking at those stats why would it not be available?
20090531 20:56:09< mordante> for example trying to allocate a std::vector with a huge size
20090531 20:57:40< mordante> I also wonder what caused the memory increase early this morning
20090531 20:57:57< Soliton> wmlunits
20090531 20:58:26< Soliton> add-ons have ~3000 units that it parses.
20090531 20:58:28< mordante> that takes several hours to complete?
20090531 20:58:45< Soliton> yeah.
20090531 20:59:31< Soliton> i wanted to ask elias about preformance improvements there but didn't catch him yet.
20090531 20:59:32< loonycyborg> How much RAM and swap space does the server have?
20090531 21:01:28< Soliton> 3GB RAM, 2GB swap
20090531 21:01:29< mordante> there was no cron job about to run at the moment of the crash?
20090531 21:02:21< Soliton> nothing significant.
20090531 21:04:45< mordante> no idea then, unless somebody uploaded a huge game
20090531 21:10:35< loonycyborg> Either this bad_alloc is bogus or someone uploaded an archive bomb.
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20090531 21:19:46< boucman> hey all
20090531 21:19:52< Crab_> hi boucman
20090531 21:20:19< boucman> Crab_: how is everything going ?
20090531 21:21:26< Crab_> boucman: not all is good at the moment. I don't like my WIP composite ai code at the moment, so I'm rewriting my code to be simpler and to look nicer. 
20090531 21:21:53< boucman> Crab_: how much work did you "loose"
20090531 21:22:08< mordante> hi boucman 
20090531 21:22:19< Crab_> boucman: no work is *lost*, i'm making changes, not rewriting from scratch.
20090531 21:22:42< boucman> Crab_: that's why I wrote lost with quotes
20090531 21:23:06< boucman> it happen all the time when coding to realize mid-way that you're in a wrong direction
20090531 21:25:06< Crab_> ok. about 3 days lost, I'd say
20090531 21:26:26< boucman> ok, no big deal, then..
20090531 21:27:33< CIA-77> silene * r35981 /trunk/src/scripting/lua.cpp: Added checks for stack overflow in recursive functions.
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20090531 21:49:24< CIA-77> mordante * r35982 /trunk/ (changelog players_changelog src/text.cpp): 
20090531 21:49:24< CIA-77> Increase the lineheight in the new dialogs.
20090531 21:49:24< CIA-77> The default space was deemed to be a little bit too small.
20090531 21:49:24< CIA-77> http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=358832#p358832
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20090531 21:55:26< CIA-77> mordante * r35983 /branches/1.6/ (changelog players_changelog src/text.cpp): 
20090531 21:55:26< CIA-77> Increase the lineheight in the new dialogs.
20090531 21:55:26< CIA-77> The default space was deemed to be a little bit too small.
20090531 21:55:26< CIA-77> http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=358832#p358832
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20090531 22:37:24< mordante> I'm off night
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20090531 22:58:37< CIA-77> esr * r35984 /trunk/ (54 files in 5 dirs): Minor translation fixes and reversions requested by Mordante.
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--- Log closed Mon Jun 01 00:00:47 2009