--- Log opened Fri Jun 05 00:00:23 2009
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20090605 06:09:14-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 60 bugs, 241 feature requests, 13 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20090605 08:39:47< euschn> hi
20090605 08:40:22< euschn> YogiHH: thanks for your tip regarding copying the game_classification. It seems to work this way, but I will add a copy constructor to be safe
20090605 08:41:03< YogiHH> euschn: ok
20090605 08:41:09< euschn> I am almost ready to commit the migration of the primitve members of game_state to game_classification, I will commit that first and then add the ctor to separate tasks in the commits
20090605 08:41:24< YogiHH> good
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20090605 09:46:13< YogiHH> afk for a while
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20090605 10:01:13< CIA-77> jetryl * r36065 /trunk/data/core/images/items/ (armor-golden.png armor.png): New version of the armor items.
20090605 10:02:47< CIA-77> jetryl * r36066 /branches/1.6/data/core/images/items/ (armor-golden.png armor.png): New version of the armor items.
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20090605 10:40:11< CIA-77> euschn * r36067 /trunk/src/ (16 files in 3 dirs): savegame reorganization: migrated the primitve members of game_state to game_classification
20090605 10:40:51< euschn> wow, that took a lot longer than i thought. when I was about to commit my notebook hd seemed to become corrupted, losing half the changes I had made :(
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20090605 11:19:33< Ivanovic> moin
20090605 11:23:31< Ivanovic> euschn: commit early, commit often
20090605 11:23:32< Ivanovic> ;)
20090605 11:23:48< Ivanovic> but yeah, a corrupt HD really sucks
20090605 11:28:02< YogiHH> back
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20090605 11:32:12< euschn> Ivanovic: you are perfectly right. I just figured it would be better to move 15 primitive members to another class in one commit rather than in 15
20090605 11:43:11< YogiHH> euschn: using classification() all the time is a bit tedious, you might want to introduce getters for each member that wrap this (but that's rather a cosmetic change)
20090605 11:44:05< euschn> YogiHH: sure - I guess it would be best to make them private and add setters too?
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20090605 11:45:29< YogiHH> euschn: private = yes. About the setters i am not sure, there should be members that are set solely by the config passed in the constructor, but otherwise, yes.
20090605 11:46:35< euschn> YogiHH: I checked the references to those members, most of them are modified at some point, so wed need setters
20090605 11:46:46< YogiHH> ah, ok
20090605 12:01:15< CIA-77> euschn * r36068 /trunk/src/ (gamestatus.cpp gamestatus.hpp): added copy constructor to game_classification
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20090605 12:31:17< mordante> servus
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20090605 13:12:25< esr> mordante: servus = ?
20090605 13:13:04< YogiHH> esr: it's like "hello" (south german dialect)
20090605 13:13:20< esr> Ah.
20090605 13:13:27< esr> Sounds like Latin.
20090605 13:34:10< ardesh> its derived from latin
20090605 13:35:22< ardesh> and it means something like... "to your service"
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20090605 14:05:42< Shadow_Master> esr: wiktionary told me what it was ;)
20090605 14:06:14< Shadow_Master> Ivanovic: ehm, "just play"? sure, but where do I get the time to play ?
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20090605 14:26:14< boucman> hey all
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20090605 14:54:15< boucman> hey Crab_
20090605 14:54:15< Crab_> hi
20090605 14:54:21< boucman> rereading your commit right now...
20090605 14:57:53< Crab_> boucman: can you also take a look at http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m67de7128 ? The question is: are highlighted ones ok to do without ack from DK ? or, is it better to leave them for now ?
20090605 14:58:46< boucman> Crab_: go wild...*
20090605 14:59:02< boucman> file renamings usually cause compile errors or "just work"
20090605 14:59:07< boucman> so he should fix that easily
20090605 14:59:36< boucman> moreover, svn is smart enough about renaming (iirc) to handle local modifications properly (i.e no better nor worth than all other changes)
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20090605 15:00:43< Crab_> ok
20090605 15:05:57< boucman> Crab_: in composite/rca.hpp comments for enable() and disable() are inverted
20090605 15:06:58< Crab_> boucman: will fix
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20090605 15:11:47< boucman> Crab_: i'm not sure that naming the file for engine_cpp "engine_default.cpp" is a good idea
20090605 15:12:04< Crab_> alternatives ?
20090605 15:12:12< boucman> (read "i'm not sure" as meaning : I want to discuss, I don't know what's the right way of doing it is)
20090605 15:12:13< Crab_> originally, it was 'engine_cpp.cpp' :)
20090605 15:12:43< boucman> well, what is exactly that engine... is "a way to call c++  code" or "a way to call default AI stages easily"
20090605 15:13:07< Crab_> the engine is a stateful object attached to the ai_composite, which is responsible for creating various objects from config.
20090605 15:13:11< boucman> if it's the first => engine_cpp.cpp the second engine_default class within the file
20090605 15:14:02< boucman> these are engines in general, what is that particular engine ? (I havn't read that far yet, i'm still into it)
20090605 15:15:58< Crab_> this particular engine, to create an ai part from config,  finds a specific c++ object type (such as a stage type, or a candidate action type), creates an instance of the said type, and returns it.
20090605 15:16:46< boucman> ok, will there be other engine classes than that one ? or is it the only "real" engine ?
20090605 15:17:15< Crab_> other potential engines (not yet coded) *may* include engine_fai (to handle formula_ai ai components) and engine_lua (to handle lua components) or engine_python (to handle python ai components)
20090605 15:17:28< Crab_> I will code engine_fai, the rest is 'potential possibilities'
20090605 15:17:43< boucman> ok, so it would make more sense to keep the name engine_cpp for the engine and the file
20090605 15:18:00< Crab_> yes. I just thought that engine_cpp.cpp a bit weird :)
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20090605 15:18:23< boucman> i don't see it as a problem...
20090605 15:18:27< Crab_> ok )
20090605 15:18:47< boucman> cpp.cpp is not really redundant when you think about it...
20090605 15:18:48< Rotonen> for your mac packages, do you have some sort of an automated script for creating the pretty .dmg? (i have a desire to nap that to an another project)
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20090605 15:19:39< boucman> Crab_: is that engine object tied to the ai_identifier= flag of the config (I havn't reached that part yet either)
20090605 15:19:58< Crab_> no
20090605 15:20:04< boucman> k
20090605 15:20:15< Crab_> see data/ai/dev/testing_ai_default.cfg
20090605 15:20:27< boucman> yes, I've missread it
20090605 15:20:37< Crab_> "engine=cpp" is key
20090605 15:21:12< Crab_> basically, when [ai] reads a [stage], it peeks and sees the engine part. it founds the right engine and passes the [stage] cfg to it.
20090605 15:21:33< boucman> k
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20090605 15:27:39< CIA-77> euschn * r36069 /trunk/src/ (tod_manager.cpp tod_manager.hpp): removed the turn_ member from tod_manager and added a turn argument to the corresponding functions
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20090605 15:32:11< boucman> Crab_: the point of registery.cpp is to create all engines, stages and ai, IIUC
20090605 15:32:49< Crab_> the point of registry.cpp is to create some 'lists of factories', yes
20090605 15:32:57< boucman> ok
20090605 15:33:24< boucman> i'm not sure (same meaning as above) that registering everything at top level is a good idea
20090605 15:33:40< Crab_> see the comment at start of that file
20090605 15:33:44< boucman> you could have a registery.?pp in the composite_ai subdirectory
20090605 15:33:47< boucman> ok
20090605 15:33:52< Crab_> boucman: yes, I can
20090605 15:34:03< Crab_> boucman: but, it's 'good enough' for now
20090605 15:34:08< boucman> ok
20090605 15:34:30< boucman> i was more thinking of encapsulating and giving "good habits" to people that will folow your example
20090605 15:34:40< boucman> but good enough for now makes sense too
20090605 15:34:46< Crab_> imo, there's no reason to make a workaround more complex than needed now
20090605 15:34:55< boucman> k
20090605 15:35:10< Crab_> and, of course, I can do the split into separate registry later
20090605 15:35:18< boucman> indeed
20090605 15:40:09< Crab_> boucman: I also want to change the way about 'how ai information is stored in the save game'. I want to store everything inside a single root tag, not the way it's done now (now it can be split in several [ai] tags)
20090605 15:41:05< boucman> Crab_: makes sense... but be carefull, euschn and YogiHH are working on that area (they are much more active than DK so it should not be a big issue)
20090605 15:43:24< Crab_> boucman: before talking with them, it's needed to figure out what is wanted. and there's some questions yet unanswered there...
20090605 15:43:29< Crab_> boucman: about ai parameters
20090605 15:43:45< boucman> i'm listening
20090605 15:44:59< Crab_> right now, we have 'list of ai parameters which are always active', 'list of ai parameters which are active now', vector of 'list of ai parameters which are active during a specific time_of_day and/or turn', and some kind of 'ai memory' parameters
20090605 15:47:28< boucman> ok
20090605 15:47:29< Crab_> I'm thinking about turning some of the parameters into 'aspects'. let's use 'aggression' as an example parameter. There's two ways to allow to specify it: 1) (current way) - list its value(s) by time of day    2) (additional way i'm thinking about) provide a formula which can be evaluated once-per-turn and provide the value.
20090605 15:48:20< Crab_> for example, allow things such as: agression = "some_formula_function_based_on_distance_from_your_leader_to_goal"
20090605 15:48:30< boucman> we are not allowed to save game during the ai's turn, are we ?
20090605 15:49:41< Soliton> we are.
20090605 15:49:48< boucman> ouch
20090605 15:49:56< boucman> ok, go on, Crab_ 
20090605 15:52:20< Crab_> also, I'm thinking that ai may need a way to 'attach' (persistent) notes to units (for example "I've seen this unit at least once" note, or "I'm reserving this unit and not attacking with it", or "I've thought for 100 seconds and I figured out a target for this unit)
20090605 15:53:24< boucman> Crab_: small remark in testing/test_rca.cpp if an action->execute() returned false, we disable it, but nothing is logged, since you seem to try to log all AI stage (which makes perfect sense) you might want to log that case somewhere...
20090605 15:53:59< Crab_> there's no test_rca.cpp there :)
20090605 15:54:05< Crab_> stage_rca.cpp ?
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20090605 15:54:14< boucman> Crab_: yes, that would make sense, and should probably be part of the ai<=>game interface
20090605 15:54:25< boucman> attaching data to hex might make sense too
20090605 15:54:30< boucman> yes, stage_rca
20090605 15:55:59< Crab_> boucman: so, I want to add some new classes of ai parameters, such as 'notes attached to..', and 'parameters which are calculated on-demand'
20090605 15:56:15< Crab_> note that "on-demand" is not always 'once per turn'
20090605 15:56:49< Crab_> we can have a on-demand function which takes a leveled-up unit and says 'which advance ai will select"
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20090605 15:57:43< boucman> so we have multiple interrelated problems here
20090605 15:57:47< boucman> saving AI data
20090605 15:58:03< boucman> and improving AI parameters/memory
20090605 15:58:09< boucman> hmm
20090605 15:58:58< Crab_> and, I want to make those ai parameters scoped. "default value of parameter" -> "always-active value of parameter" -> "value of parameter during specific circumstances (turn, time of day, hex, units involved, etc)" 
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20090605 15:59:36< Crab_> when we are saving ai data, we can save a config 'snapshot' of ai data structures
20090605 15:59:53< Crab_> so we'll be able to re-create them from that snapshot
20090605 16:00:15< Crab_> and use something more efficient that 'config' during ai turns
20090605 16:00:52< boucman> ok, all that makes sense so far...
20090605 16:02:40< Crab_> so, I want to change the [ai] format to allow storage of such structures. and, the question is: what's the policy about breaking save interoperability ?
20090605 16:03:53< Crab_> I will be able to load both 'old' and 'new' ways, but I will save in a 'new' way, so, ai parameters will not be loaded correctly when opened in earlier version
20090605 16:04:16< boucman> Crab_: policy is simple : don't do it on stable
20090605 16:05:02< Crab_> ok. so, that kind of breakage (1.7.2 saves will lose some of the ai parameter info when opened in 1.7.1) is ok ?
20090605 16:05:03< boucman> in trunk, we do our best to be compatible with previous versions, but we don't really care about being compatible with older versions at savegame level
20090605 16:05:29< boucman> yes, that's ok ( Soliton, Ivanovic please confirm, but that's my understanding)
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20090605 16:06:48< Crab_> Ivanovic: btw, when 1.7.1 is expected ?
20090605 16:07:54< Ivanovic> IIRWIIR
20090605 16:07:55< Ivanovic> ;)
20090605 16:08:09< Crab_> :)
20090605 16:09:03< boucman> Crab_: finished proofreading... all that looks good
20090605 16:09:39< Crab_> ok
20090605 16:09:45< Ivanovic> Crab_: if 1.7.2 saves work in 1.7.1 or not does not matter at all
20090605 16:09:53< Crab_> good :)
20090605 16:10:01< Ivanovic> though it should still be possible to load 1.7.1 saves in 1.7.2
20090605 16:10:17< Ivanovic> (in general at least three minor versions back *should* work)
20090605 16:10:27< Crab_> boucman: and, please open ai.cpp:222
20090605 16:10:42< Crab_> boucman: ai_default::ai_default
20090605 16:12:30< boucman> ok, i'm there
20090605 16:12:40< Crab_> see the line        disp_(context.get_info().disp),
20090605 16:12:51< boucman> ok
20090605 16:13:02< Crab_> and note, that, if it's written as " disp_(get_info().disp), ", it will segfault
20090605 16:13:17< Crab_> since init_default_ai_context_proxy is not yet called
20090605 16:13:46< boucman> ok, i trust you with that :P
20090605 16:14:09< Crab_> ok, that just a note :)
20090605 16:14:31< Crab_> I'll explain it all in more detail when I get to writing the wiki documentation
20090605 16:14:32< boucman> :)
20090605 16:14:49< boucman> what's the next thing you plan to do now ?
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20090605 16:16:08< Crab_> two things: 1) let the game make a list of multiplayer AIs from 'data/ai/ais' and data/ai/dev contents
20090605 16:16:21< Crab_> for this, I will need to learn more about how addons work
20090605 16:17:25< Crab_> since, my intent is to allow users to get a new AI as easily as it is for them to get a new map.
20090605 16:18:03< boucman> k, i'm not sure what quantity of work this involves
20090605 16:18:35< Crab_> 2) port ai_default to composite_ai stages and make it 'have at least a change of winning against ai_default'
20090605 16:19:21< Ivanovic> Crab_: in your huge renaming change please also update po/wesnoth*/POTFILES.in
20090605 16:19:37< Ivanovic> should be obvious what has to be changed which way
20090605 16:19:52< Crab_> boucman: a half-done (1) is "just get a list of .cfg files in two hardcoded folders (scan data/ai/ais in standard mode, and, in debug mode, also scan data/ai/dev )"
20090605 16:19:54< Crab_> Ivanovic: ok
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20090605 16:21:01< boucman> Crab_: why would that be 'half done' ?
20090605 16:21:34< Crab_> boucman: because a full solution would need to scan user's preferences directory, too
20090605 16:22:11< boucman> oh, yes of course
20090605 16:22:20< Crab_> such as ~/.wesnoth/data/ai/ais  and ~/.wesnoth/data/ai/dev
20090605 16:22:28< boucman> Crab_: I think WML has facilites in place to handle user pref dirs
20090605 16:22:40< Crab_> boucman: yes. and so I need to reuse them.
20090605 16:22:53< Crab_> and also, that data/ai/ais dir has to be created :)
20090605 16:23:00< boucman> hehe
20090605 16:25:59< Crab_> also, I will refactor ai::manager a bit, to remove ai/ai_manager.hpp 's dependency on ai/default/contexts.hpp
20090605 16:26:07< Crab_> this will speed up recompilation
20090605 16:27:25< Crab_> also, I'll do some cleanup with finishing my milestone-1 goals
20090605 16:35:08< mordante_> Crab_, after your savegame changes will it be possible to open a 1.7.0 with 1.7.1?
20090605 16:35:18< Crab_> yes
20090605 16:35:40< Crab_> and 1.7.1 with 1.7.0, too (only some ai parameters will be lost)
20090605 16:36:43< mordante_> trunk doesn't need to be forward compatible only limited backwards
20090605 16:36:59< euschn> Crab_: feel free to let me know once you have more concrete ideas on how to change ai tags in savegames
20090605 16:37:28< mordante_> and no requirements for trunk-stable
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20090605 16:39:17< Crab_> euschn: ok. I think that, when saving, it'll be a single [ai] tag with additional info inside it. 
20090605 16:40:14< euschn> Crab_: so one top level tag (inside the game snapshot), which contains the ai information for all sides?
20090605 16:41:41< Crab_> euschn: What is better ? both ways (one top-level OR inside [side]) are ok, as AI initialization is delayed till 'turn start'.
20090605 16:44:10< euschn> Crab_: ah I think I misunderstood you. [side] can have several ai tags, which should be combined in a single tag - was that your intention?
20090605 16:44:21< Crab_> yes
20090605 16:44:31< euschn> ok, that makes sense of course
20090605 16:45:13< Crab_> so, for saving, I'll save ai info as part of team_info
20090605 16:45:20< YogiHH> Crab_: are there kind of global ai settings which are not side specific?
20090605 16:46:31< Crab_> YogiHH: there are player-specific things (but they can be attached to one of player's sides)
20090605 16:47:14< YogiHH> Crab_: can you give me an example?
20090605 16:47:46< Crab_> YogiHH: formula ai console history (it is not saved atm)
20090605 16:48:56< mordante> is that really needed in a savegame?
20090605 16:49:33< mordante> I would rather save it in the preferences
20090605 16:49:56< Crab_> another example is the internal state of console formula ai
20090605 16:50:12< Crab_> it is not saved atm, as well
20090605 16:50:49< mordante> I know, but there's also no history function, which makes saving it not really useful
20090605 16:51:04< Crab_> mordante: there is history function for formula ai console :)
20090605 16:51:23< YogiHH> well, if for any reason you still want to save it in the future:
20090605 16:51:35< YogiHH> Crab_: The side specific information should go into [side] obviously, for the player specific stuff i'd suggest to put it into replay_start/snapshot at the top level respectively
20090605 16:52:03< YogiHH> that is make a top level [ai] tag there
20090605 16:52:18< mordante> Crab_, ok didn't know that
20090605 16:52:47< Crab_> YogiHH: so, for saving, I'll make ai::manager implement to_config() (for global stuff) and side_to_config(side_number side)   (for [ai] tag inside [side])
20090605 16:54:30< Crab_> YogiHH: and then, I'll ask about 'where to call them during save' 
20090605 16:55:13< Crab_> YogiHH: for loading, ai-for-specific-side info will be loaded as it is now (as part of team_info:: constructor)
20090605 16:55:43< YogiHH> Crab_: For the side specific information we plan to have team handle all what is needed, so i guess it is more appropriate to put it there?
20090605 16:56:26< Crab_> YogiHH: right now it's part of team_info 
20090605 16:56:34< Crab_> YogiHH: it should be moved to team ?
20090605 16:57:00< YogiHH> no, you can keep it there, i didn't really differentiate between team and team_info :-)
20090605 16:57:08< Crab_> ok
20090605 16:57:41< Crab_> and, for loading global data, I'll implement ai::manager::from_config(const config &cfg)
20090605 16:59:22< YogiHH> Crab_: actually, this is normally done by the constructor, we didn't mean to have an explicit method for that
20090605 16:59:41< YogiHH> Crab_: or is that a static class?
20090605 16:59:45< Crab_> YogiHH: ai::manager is a bunch of static functions, so no constructor there :
20090605 16:59:54< YogiHH> ah, i see
20090605 16:59:59< Crab_> it it initialized at playsingle_controller::playsingle_controller constructor
20090605 17:00:03< Crab_> s/it it/it is
20090605 17:00:11< YogiHH> ok
20090605 17:00:42< YogiHH> euschn, you are listening? ;-)
20090605 17:00:52< Crab_> but, as ai initialization is lazy, the initialization order doesn't matter much
20090605 17:01:25< Crab_> so, that from_config can be called either before or after playsingle_controller::playsingle_controller constructor
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20090605 17:06:08< euschn> YogiHH: i had to afk, sorry. I read it all now, sounds good
20090605 17:06:42< YogiHH> np, just wanted to make sure you don't miss it
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20090605 17:32:04< ilor> hi all, just dropping by to say that I'm alive, but still awfully busy
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20090605 18:13:08< Ivanovic> i am off for today, cu tomorrow
20090605 18:14:37< boucman> bye
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20090605 19:09:16< mordante> servus
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20090605 19:44:46< CIA-77> mordante * r36070 /trunk/CMakeLists.txt: Define relative dir with a value like autotools.
20090605 19:44:50< CIA-77> mordante * r36071 /trunk/ (cmake/TranslationTargets.cmake po/CMakeLists.txt): 
20090605 19:44:50< CIA-77> Entirely switch to the new mo-update.
20090605 19:44:50< CIA-77> Stikonas discovered the old way was still there, also added a proper
20090605 19:44:50< CIA-77> install target for the new code.
20090605 19:44:55< CIA-77> mordante * r36072 /trunk/src/ai/ (4 files in 2 dirs): Add virtual destructors.
20090605 19:45:01< CIA-77> mordante * r36073 /trunk/src/ai/composite/stage.hpp: 
20090605 19:45:01< CIA-77> Turn a class all public.
20090605 19:45:01< CIA-77> Gcc complained about the class being al private without friends, Crab_
20090605 19:45:01< CIA-77> please review.
20090605 19:45:04< CIA-77> mordante * r36074 /trunk/src/ai/composite/stage.hpp: Remove a useless declaration.
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20090605 19:46:07< Crab_> mordante: 36073 ok
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20090605 19:50:17< mordante> thanks Crab_ 
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20090605 21:12:35< mordante> noy I won't have time to look at your mail this weekend will do so next week
20090605 21:12:43< noy> hm?
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20090605 21:13:00< mordante> noy, still not really comfortable with allowing non community members for the summer project
20090605 21:13:40< noy> I'm sorry, I disagree
20090605 21:14:02< noy> particularly given the way I structured the proposal
20090605 21:14:41< mordante> like I said I won't have too much time to look at it now, very busy at the moment
20090605 21:14:49< noy> And the likely candidate in question
20090605 21:20:31< mordante> I gotta go now, bye
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20090605 22:33:37< Sapient> becoming a "community member" is just a few mouseclicks away
20090605 22:35:21< boucman> Sapient: ??
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20090605 22:37:06< Turuk_> replying to the comment made an hour ago
20090605 22:37:42< shadowmaster> mouse clicks and a few keypresses
20090605 22:40:24< Sapient> if your keyboard doesn't work, you can copy from the character map accessory ;)
20090605 22:40:47< Sapient> I had to do that before...
20090605 22:45:11< shadowmaster> since windows xp (original) and latest win2k service packs, you have an on-screen-keyboard accessory
20090605 22:45:20< shadowmaster> you'd have used that instead...
20090605 22:47:38< Sapient> ah, even better
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20090605 23:40:34< CIA-77> noyga * r36075 /branches/1.6/po/wesnoth-anl/fr.po: French translation update
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20090605 23:42:29< CIA-77> noyga * r36076 /trunk/po/wesnoth-anl/fr.po: French translation update
20090605 23:44:30< Noyga> n8
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--- Log closed Sat Jun 06 00:00:32 2009