--- Log opened Sat Jun 06 00:00:32 2009
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20090606 02:25:40< CIA-77> ai0867 * r36077 /trunk/data/scenario-test.cfg: Add "unit worth" calculator to test scenario, to find reasonable values for the "advantage calculator".
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20090606 04:12:03< [Relic]> Hello :)
20090606 04:12:15< shadowmad> thanks.
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20090606 09:14:53< boucman> hey all
20090606 09:14:58< boucman> AI0867: around ?
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20090606 09:33:51< euschn> hi
20090606 09:34:13< boucman> morning euschn
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20090606 11:20:50< Ivanovic> moin
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20090606 11:25:33< boucman> moin moin
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20090606 15:24:04< AI0867> boucman: here
20090606 15:24:16< boucman> hey
20090606 15:24:25< boucman> I was just wondering what your evaluator was for
20090606 15:24:44< boucman> (and if anything could be reused in AI at some point)
20090606 15:24:46< AI0867> for the "end-of-turns advantage calculator"
20090606 15:25:02< AI0867> it's in data/multiplayer/eras.cfg
20090606 15:26:49< boucman> what is that calculator for ?
20090606 15:27:53< AI0867> showing which side has more income+gold+units when the game ends
20090606 15:28:08< AI0867> http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=169416
20090606 15:29:11< boucman> checking...
20090606 15:29:54< boucman> do you intend to make it WML changeable ? that would be cool
20090606 15:30:05< boucman> so scenarios could keep track of their own stats...
20090606 15:31:35< AI0867> that wasn't the purpose, but I guess it could be made to work
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20090606 16:14:19< boucman> AI0867: if it's not too much work, it would be a great addition
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20090606 22:37:32< Ivanovic> autotools build system:
20090606 22:37:34< Ivanovic> g++: ai/composite/context.o: No such file or directory
20090606 22:37:40< Ivanovic> Crab_: your fault?
20090606 22:37:53< Crab_> yes, most probably
20090606 22:38:17< Crab_> it's a newly added file
20090606 22:41:17< Ivanovic> since this error occurs at linking time you probably forgot to somehow add it in some source list
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20090606 22:41:37< Ivanovic> let me check if cmake compiles as expected
20090606 22:41:57< Crab_> Ivanovic: yes, a typo
20090606 22:42:04< Ivanovic> noy: i left you a message about openness of "art program" some days ago in the logs
20090606 22:42:05< Crab_> I've added ai/default/contexts.cpp instead of ai/default/context.cpp
20090606 22:42:10< Ivanovic> just to make sure that you read it
20090606 22:42:12< Ivanovic> Crab_: ah, okay
20090606 22:42:36< noy> yes
20090606 22:42:36< Crab_> will commit a fix in a sec...
20090606 22:42:42< noy> and I replied to it
20090606 22:42:54< Ivanovic> ehm, in the logs as in "when you were not around"
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20090606 22:43:11< Ivanovic> to this one i have not seen a reply, at least not with a highlight
20090606 22:43:36< Ivanovic> 20090604 16:04:00
20090606 22:44:12< Ivanovic> http://wesnoth.org/irclogs/2009/06/%23wesnoth-dev.2009-06-04.log
20090606 22:45:11< Ivanovic> (reading the log afterwards you have not replied to this either to me in a query or in #wesnoth-dev
20090606 22:45:29< Ivanovic> and yeah, this discussion should be completele in here since it is relevant for the rest, too)
20090606 22:47:36< CIA-77> crab * r36078 /trunk/src/ (Makefile.am ai/composite/rca.hpp): fixed a typo, which prevented linking
20090606 22:48:20< Crab_> Ivanovic: fixed ^
20090606 22:48:24< Ivanovic> great
20090606 22:48:41< Ivanovic> Crab_: good news is that the cmake recipe works as intended
20090606 22:48:43< Ivanovic> ;)
20090606 22:49:37< Crab_> that's the good side of having several buildsystems :)
20090606 22:49:40< noy> Ivanovic: I don't see it as a reward for our artists
20090606 22:50:16< noy> you're one of the people who warned against making this cash for art, and taking the project down this line is exactly what it makes it
20090606 22:50:28< noy> (project = scholarship)
20090606 22:50:41< Ivanovic> ???
20090606 22:50:54< noy>  16:04:00< Ivanovic> noy: and i see this art scholarship *explicitly* as a reward for those who already have done something, those who have a proven record
20090606 22:51:01< Ivanovic> with "cash for art" i mean "hey people, come here, here you can get a job"
20090606 22:51:06< Ivanovic> since this is *NOT* what i want
20090606 22:51:18< noy> well opening it only to people who are already here is like that. 
20090606 22:51:38< Ivanovic> this is (from my point) *ONLY* for our art people whi have a proven track record and to allow them work on wesnoth art over the summer holidays instead of flipping burgers
20090606 22:51:48< noy> As I said, the way I've structured the policy is to ensure that people who are outside, but well known to members could contribute
20090606 22:51:52< Ivanovic> since we know that they do a good job and stay anyway
20090606 22:52:00< noy> and the only person like that is dfranke's sister at this moment
20090606 22:52:54< noy> and if she's a good artist who wants to contribute in the future, I think thats not just a good thing for her, but for us as well
20090606 22:53:06< noy> because we get another good artist in our stable
20090606 22:53:34< noy> also it gives us good practice if we want to continue this in later years
20090606 22:53:58< noy> not having just a couple of people we know won't give us problems, but how to be more inclusionary to other people
20090606 22:54:01< Ivanovic> sorry, but i do *not* see your last point affecting anything there
20090606 22:54:22< Ivanovic> if we just allow people in that we know we can tell interested people: contribute for some time and next summer you can get in
20090606 22:54:25< Ivanovic> works just as well
20090606 22:54:50< noy> Well that might be from your perspective, but probably not because they would have to work over the summer
20090606 22:55:17< noy> Look what happened to gabm.... he didn't get the GSOC, and he left for other work because he couldn't spend the time to help us
20090606 22:55:49< Ivanovic> and why are you sure that someone who joins right for the time when you can earn money will for sure stay later on?
20090606 22:55:51< noy> So this might bring in one good artist to our stable. 
20090606 22:56:08< Ivanovic> it would bring one good artist for at least as long as we pay
20090606 22:56:08< noy> Because the person in question here is well known to one of our developers 
20090606 22:56:13< Ivanovic> we have no idea about afterwards
20090606 22:56:33< Ivanovic> i prefer giving this as an option for those who already joined even though there was no money in for them
20090606 22:56:41< noy> I disagree, and so does Sirp 
20090606 22:57:24< noy> because I don't want this to be a closed project, and I see this as an opportunity to get someone in who is quite likely to stay on in the future
20090606 23:00:06< Ivanovic> at least for the start i want it 100% closed to those people we really know well *by now*
20090606 23:00:32< Ivanovic> people where we have the art, where we know that they are around and are very likely to stay (since they were already around before)
20090606 23:00:51< Ivanovic> yes, i don't want this open when we try it as a first time to see if it works *at all*
20090606 23:01:46< noy> Honestly, I'm not concerned about the people we will get
20090606 23:02:12< noy> I'm worried about the management of it, and it wont matter if they are outside or inside artists
20090606 23:02:30< noy> I know who basically the three candidates are likely to be
20090606 23:03:32< noy> I think all three will be good and I don't have a major concern. 
20090606 23:03:41< noy> two are inside one are out, from what I can see
20090606 23:03:42< Ivanovic> especially since we don't know 100% that everything will work out (regarding management and all the other little problems we might face and have not thought about) i would prefer to only have it limited to those who already know who they will be working with
20090606 23:03:57< noy> Again, I understand your concerns, and I disagree. 
20090606 23:04:01< Ivanovic> since those are not afraid to ping others and know who to ping when something goes wrong
20090606 23:04:33< noy> the only outside candidate will have a strong relationship with someone if she needs help
20090606 23:04:49< noy> since he himself is a mentor for GSOC
20090606 23:05:19< noy> So I don't share your concern. It might be a concern if it was someone else, but in this case I doubt it will be. 
20090606 23:06:23< noy> In general you're right Ivanovic, I wouldn't disagree with you. 
20090606 23:06:43< noy> but because of the nature of this particular case, I don't think those concerns apply. 
20090606 23:07:07< Ivanovic> so what will we do if someone else from the outside steps up to us, has a quite good proposal and all the stuff and we end with having problems?
20090606 23:07:25< noy> your concerns might apply in that case
20090606 23:07:30< Ivanovic> yes, you are talking about one specifc case, i think of "when we allow externals others might join in, too"
20090606 23:07:38< Ivanovic> and then we might end f***ed up
20090606 23:08:23< noy> Maybe... but we might not necissarily bring in someone else from outside. Thats why we aren't advertising it actively outside.
20090606 23:08:51< noy> so we don't get anybody who is completely foreign to the project
20090606 23:09:03< noy> I added in that line specifically because of that concern Ivanovic 
20090606 23:09:58< Ivanovic> noy: you do know that our mailling list has many non dev subscribers
20090606 23:10:04< Ivanovic> and is mirrored at *various* places
20090606 23:10:24< Ivanovic> so with a little "bad luck" it might end on some artist news site and make us swear badly
20090606 23:10:50< noy> I somewhat doubt it.
20090606 23:10:51< Ivanovic> that is why we should add some "should have a close connection to the project before the start" where we define "related to a core dev" as "close enough" criteria
20090606 23:11:29< noy> And honestly, the way I see it, I worry more about Jetryl just going with his two current artists anyway
20090606 23:11:46< noy> because he'll do that. 
20090606 23:12:34< noy> I doubt we're going to see someone else. 
20090606 23:12:53< noy> other than these three... we might have heard something by now, given the fact the deadline is coming up.
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20090606 23:16:04< noy> Ivanovic: I think while there isn't a line in there about having a close connection at the start, in practical terms I can't see how someone without one could get in anyway.
20090606 23:16:29< noy> you wouldn't know how to set up a proposal on milestones of art and how they relate to the project
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20090606 23:16:57< noy> unless you had close links with the project in the first place
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--- Log closed Sun Jun 07 00:00:41 2009