--- Log opened Wed Jun 24 00:00:01 2009
--- Day changed Wed Jun 24 2009
20090624 00:00:01< Aethaeryn> yes, let's waste hundreds of hours of artist work so we can start all over again with ugly graphics when we hit 2.0
20090624 00:00:33< grzywacz> (that was supposed to be a bad joke)
20090624 00:00:57< Aethaeryn> (yeah, but I couldn't resist)
20090624 00:01:24< Aethaeryn> though if anything, 1.6 is just one step on the way to 2.0
20090624 00:01:47< Aethaeryn> 2.0 won't be revolutionary at all, unless you haven't played since 1.0
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20090624 00:09:14-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.7.1 planned for June 28 | 67 bugs, 243 feature requests, 13 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20090624 00:18:23< CIA-53> grzywacz * r36380 /trunk/ (changelog src/loadscreen.cpp): fix bug #13758 - logo not being redrawn on the loading screen
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20090624 00:41:55< grzywacz> Oh, endless loop.
20090624 00:42:02< grzywacz> 20090624 00:41:50 error filesystem: Could not open '/home/karol/.wesnoth-trunk/saves/TSG-Born_to_the_Banner-Auto-Save6.gz' for reading.
20090624 00:42:02< grzywacz> 20090624 00:41:50 error filesystem: Could not open '/home/karol/.wesnoth-trunk/saves/TSG-Born to the Banner-Auto-Save6.gz' for reading.
20090624 00:42:02< grzywacz> 20090624 00:41:50 error general: The file you have tried to load is corrupt
20090624 00:42:34< grzywacz> And a dialog with "The file you have tried to load is corrupt" that is impossible to close (i.e. reappers again after pressing OK)
20090624 00:43:42< grzywacz> (in fact, the file it's trying to load does not exist)
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20090624 00:51:25< Sirp> grzywacz: so how did it go? :)
20090624 00:51:34< grzywacz> Sirp, perfect :)
20090624 00:51:41< Sirp> congratulations. :)
20090624 00:51:45< grzywacz> Thank you :)
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20090624 01:18:01< ilor> night all
20090624 01:19:09< grzywacz> night ilor 
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20090624 01:38:51< grzywacz> hey Blueblaze 
20090624 01:39:03< Blueblaze> hey grzywacz
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20090624 01:46:27< grzywacz> Sirp, there?
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20090624 01:50:56< Sirp> grzywacz: kinda, what's up?
20090624 01:52:19< grzywacz> Sirp, I've kind of found an answer to my problem. :) I'm looking at https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?13094 and was wondering if exit(3) kills all threads.
20090624 01:52:49< grzywacz> Sirp, to fix this bug we should either kill the upload thread (messy, it can be in the middle of deleting a directory) or let it linger after the main thread terminates.
20090624 01:53:08< grzywacz> Sirp, the 2nd option is probably the best, but we'd have to remove calls to exit()
20090624 01:54:47< grzywacz> Or even better - interrupt the blocking call (connect() or equivalent) with a signal, but I have no idea how portable that may be.......
20090624 01:54:54< Sirp> grzywacz: exit() kills all threads.
20090624 01:55:21< grzywacz> Sirp, that's what I found, ye
20090624 01:55:23< grzywacz> s
20090624 01:56:39< Sirp> grzywacz: I think this bug is difficult to fix while we're using SDL threads.
20090624 01:56:45< Sirp> grzywacz: we should switch to boost asio
20090624 01:57:17< grzywacz> Sirp, indeed, there's no way to singal a thread with SDL
20090624 01:58:03< grzywacz> Sirp, what if we let the game exit by returning from main instead of calling exit()?
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20090624 01:58:43< Sirp> grzywacz: same thing would happen.
20090624 01:59:14< Sirp> grzywacz: I don't think we can fix it while using SDL_Net unless we perhaps hack around SDL_Net's abstractions
20090624 01:59:20< grzywacz> Sirp, right.
20090624 01:59:33< grzywacz> Hacking around is going to break sooner or later.
20090624 01:59:46< Sirp> yes
20090624 02:00:31< Aethaeryn> is there any definitive todo list of art?
20090624 02:00:38< Aethaeryn> i.e. at what point will the art be "complete"?
20090624 02:00:45< grzywacz> Ok, at this point it's probably better to let it timeout rather than kill the thread and risk some corruption.
20090624 02:02:04< Aethaeryn> I might try my hand at some spriting again
20090624 02:02:20< Blueblaze> Aethaeryn: Ask Jetryl what needs work
20090624 02:02:35< Blueblaze> Aethaeryn: pm Jetrel as he is online
20090624 02:03:31< Aethaeryn> I'd need something extremely easy because it's been a long while
20090624 02:04:05< grzywacz> Aethaeryn, kalifa needs help
20090624 02:04:17< grzywacz> noy, ^
20090624 02:04:32< Aethaeryn> I don't want to try to make anything from scratch, though
20090624 02:04:49< grzywacz> I guess it's ok to do some frankensteining. ;p
20090624 02:04:51< Aethaeryn> I made a few Thunderstone sprites from almost the ground up, but I haven't done anything in a while...
20090624 02:05:22< grzywacz> Aethaeryn, kalifa needs lvl 2 and 3 sprites. So tweaking base sprites may be the way to go first.
20090624 02:05:22< Aethaeryn> though obviously I can't go back to faction-making without being able to do my own art. I always had more ideas than I could do because art is really what's necessary
20090624 02:05:27< Aethaeryn> hmm
20090624 02:08:07< Aethaeryn> kalifa are in what add-on?
20090624 02:08:41< noy> its used in BEEM 
20090624 02:08:48< noy> but it will be removed from there
20090624 02:08:57< noy> they don't use the up to date art we've started gathering
20090624 02:09:42< Aethaeryn> BEEM?
20090624 02:09:47< Aethaeryn> well...
20090624 02:09:55< Aethaeryn> I can give it a try, but I am a little rusty.
20090624 02:10:07< Aethaeryn> just when I started to get decent I stopped spriting for a while...
20090624 02:10:09< grzywacz> Everything is better than no sprite at all. :-)
20090624 02:10:18< grzywacz> You'll get up to speed soon enough. ;)
20090624 02:10:43< noy> Balanced Extended Era
20090624 02:10:50< Aethaeryn> no animating though, I never learned how to do it in the first place.
20090624 02:10:58< Aethaeryn> Balanced EE? I guess I did miss a few things.
20090624 02:11:12< Aethaeryn> (btw, I can learn how to animate, I'm just saying I'd prefer to not do that until I do some spriting)
20090624 02:11:22< noy> Aethaeryn: all we need for now is base sprites for the lvl2s and 3s
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20090624 02:11:55< Aethaeryn> so basically, bigger versions of the lvl 1s, with some stylistic modifications to distinguish?
20090624 02:12:37< grzywacz> That's my guess :)
20090624 02:13:02< noy> Aethaeryn: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=23846
20090624 02:13:10< noy> yes, kinda
20090624 02:14:03< Aethaeryn> hmm, they're significantly different.
20090624 02:14:26< Aethaeryn> since I was inactive in fall and didn't check at all in the spring, I sure did miss a lot
20090624 02:16:08< Aethaeryn> basically, everything I saw in concept on the forums = now in practice (new dialog/portrait system, new mermen, etc.)
20090624 02:16:18< Aethaeryn> (formula ai too)
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20090624 02:19:34< noy> Aethaeryn: if you want to help you can message me... we'll be finalizing the unit tree soon so we can have that for you
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20090624 02:32:34< grzywacz> night
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20090624 05:09:08< Aethaeryn> Just wondering, is any work being done on the skirmish AI?
20090624 05:09:28< Aethaeryn> (i.e. playing multiplayer against AI instead of humans)
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20090624 07:30:27< CIA-53> cornmander * r36381 /website/stats.wesnoth.org/wesstats/ (3 files in 2 dirs): Initial work on selecting data by date ranges
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20090624 08:03:48< CIA-53> cornmander * r36382 /website/stats.wesnoth.org/ (TODO wesstats/config/app_cfg.py wesstats/static/): updated todo, removed extraneous dependency on sqlalchemy, moved calendar script to correct directory
20090624 08:05:20< corn__> hey, is this license compatible with GPL? http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth/website/stats.wesnoth.org/wesstats/public/scripts/CalendarPopup.js?rev=36381&view=markup
20090624 08:10:32< corn__> there is a restriction on redistribution - the script author does not want the script rebundled as part of another script pack, but it can be freely redistributed if used as part of a bigger project (like wesnoth)P
20090624 08:11:12< corn__> he has relicensed everything else he released under mit and gpl licenses, I will email him to do the same for this one as well
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20090624 08:36:00< euschn> hi
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20090624 10:02:51< Ivanovic> moin
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20090624 11:09:19< CIA-53> dragonking * r36383 /trunk/src/ (formula_function.cpp variant.cpp variant.hpp): Made debug_print print complete info to the console
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20090624 11:25:17< CIA-53> euschn * r36384 /trunk/src/ (6 files): removed gamestatus member from play_controller and game_events::resources_t
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20090624 11:54:04< Dragonking> zookeeper: Around?
20090624 11:54:20< zookeeper> Dragonking, somewhat, yes
20090624 11:55:24< zookeeper> actually i think i just returned about a couple of seconds after you asked..
20090624 11:56:18< Dragonking> zookeeper: I need a way for formula to distingush units, and I am thinking about using their location on a map, not sure if you do something with WML tricks thay may place units on the same location? Also not sure how would this handle some tricks with storing units outside of a map.. I'm not fammiliar with how it is done
20090624 11:58:08< Dragonking> hmm... or maybe there is some id that is unique for every unit.. I think I saw something like that once...
20090624 11:58:15< zookeeper> yes, there is
20090624 11:58:39< zookeeper> location is a perfectly unique way of distinquishing units that are on the map (and not on the recall list for example)
20090624 11:59:09< Dragonking> Unique ID would be way better solution
20090624 11:59:12< zookeeper> the id of units is supposed to be unique, but i think there's still also some underlying_id thing
20090624 12:00:40< Dragonking> Yes, according to the sources underlying_id is unique internal ID of a unit
20090624 12:00:51< Dragonking> Thanks
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20090624 13:50:10< CIA-53> dragonking * r36385 /trunk/src/ (callable_objects.cpp callable_objects.hpp): Fixed bugs #13430 and #13431
20090624 13:56:21< CIA-53> dragonking * r36386 /trunk/src/formula.cpp: Fixed bug #13261
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20090624 15:29:46< CIA-53> dragonking * r36387 /trunk/src/ (ai/formula/ai.cpp callable_objects.cpp map_location.hpp): Commited patch #1170 with some addictional modifications
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20090624 16:34:13< Ivanovic> got a mail from yogihh asking me to post this in irc:
20090624 16:34:14< Ivanovic> Message to Crab_/Dragonking:
20090624 16:34:16< Ivanovic> Searching the source code for "skirmisker" will reveal why surround bonus for the AI does not work as expected ;-)
20090624 16:34:35< Crab_> Ivanovic: issue is known
20090624 16:35:22< Ivanovic> okay
20090624 16:35:49< Crab_> Ivanovic: but I don't want to fix it ai_default yet, since I want to have at least two AIs before I start 'fixing' things - so, I'll be able to check for regressions.
20090624 16:35:57< Ivanovic> :)
20090624 16:36:08< Crab_> but thanks anyway :)
20090624 16:36:36< Ivanovic> like i said, got this in a mail from yogi asking me to post it in here since he can't get online atm
20090624 16:36:43< Crab_> Ivanovic: ok :)
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20090624 18:09:14-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.7.1 planned for June 28 | 66 bugs, 241 feature requests, 13 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20090624 18:32:48< Rrenys> how many applications did you get then for that summer-of-art thing?
20090624 18:34:34< patchpatch> why do you need to know?
20090624 18:34:51< Rrenys> i dont
20090624 18:35:02< Rrenys> just curious
20090624 18:35:16< Rrenys> shadow_master?
20090624 18:35:21< patchpatch> no
20090624 18:36:16< Rrenys> youre certainly using the same net
20090624 18:36:25< patchpatch> no?
20090624 18:36:41< Rrenys> 19:35 | ¬ WHOIS patchpatch? ®
20090624 18:36:42< Rrenys> 19:35 | patchpatch!n=ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster - Ignacio R. Morelle
20090624 18:36:47< patchpatch> that's not a net.
20090624 18:37:27-!- patchpatch is now known as Shadow_Master
20090624 18:37:32< Shadow_Master> okay, okay. But no net.
20090624 18:37:55< loonycyborg> It's a cloak, not net :P
20090624 18:37:59< Rrenys> i know, just the right word didnt come to mind
20090624 18:38:17< Shadow_Master> we all have those.
20090624 18:38:24 * Rrenys doesnt
20090624 18:38:50< Shadow_Master> there must be a good reason behind that. Let me ask my personal assistant, shikadibot.
20090624 18:39:40-!- shikadibot [n=robored@wesnoth/umc-dev/bot/shikadibot] has left #wesnoth-dev ["no"]
20090624 18:40:45< Shadow_Master> "no" is the best explanation for anything around here ;)
20090624 18:40:57< Rrenys> no
20090624 18:42:28< Rrenys> still, is there a reason not to say the number of applications?
20090624 18:42:56< Shadow_Master> no. I think you could ask your boss directly, no? (Jetryl)
20090624 18:43:11< Rrenys> hes not here
20090624 18:43:23< loonycyborg> Rrenys: There's one reason: we don't know this number.
20090624 18:43:39< Rrenys> oh
20090624 18:43:41< Shadow_Master> yep, that's why I was suggesting to contact him ... forum PMs work
20090624 18:44:28< Shadow_Master> though IMHO such information should be kept secret to anyone not signing a NDA
20090624 18:45:38< Rrenys> Nah, i havent got such an urge to know right now anyway. When i PM someone, i always have the feeling im violating his personal space
20090624 18:46:23 * Shadow_Master deliberately ignores http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/Wesnoth_Summer_Art_Scholarship 's foot
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20090624 18:52:12< Aethaeryn> thespaceinvader: Drakes!!!
20090624 18:52:37< patchpatch> damn you, Firefox.
20090624 18:52:45< Aethaeryn> I've always liked Drakes and UD because they require a bit more out-of-the-box thinking.
20090624 18:52:54< Aethaeryn> Undead kept getting new art, not so much Drakes
20090624 18:53:04< patchpatch> Aethaeryn: what's up?
20090624 18:53:05< thespaceinvader> Aethaeryn: drakes indeed
20090624 18:53:18< Aethaeryn> thespaceinvader: if you are working on the new Drakes...
20090624 18:53:36< Aethaeryn> I can always convert my new campaign (two maps so far) into a Drake one since I haven't done anything except the map design
20090624 18:53:48< Aethaeryn> since you need to establish a Drake canon, your project page said
20090624 18:54:23< thespaceinvader> Aethaeryn: i'm more thinking about background information than specific canon
20090624 18:54:36< thespaceinvader> and i suspect Jetryl will have more to do with the base frames than myself
20090624 18:54:37< Aethaeryn> of course, the two maps I made are snow and cave, so they might need a bit of modifications to be playable ;)
20090624 18:54:48< Aethaeryn> considering snow + cave = weakest points for Drakes
20090624 18:57:57< Ivanovic> zookeeper, esr: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=25974&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
20090624 18:59:57< Aethaeryn> thespaceinvader: but yes, I'd be glad to make a Drake campaign that conforms to the "new" Drake
20090624 19:00:09< thespaceinvader> that would be handy, perhaps
20090624 19:00:12< Aethaeryn> considering they've always been tied with Undead as my favorite
20090624 19:00:18< thespaceinvader> somethign following Krash from NR, maybe?
20090624 19:00:30< Aethaeryn> and Undead already has a campaign (been like a year and a half since I played Descent into Darkness, but I loved it)
20090624 19:00:50< Aethaeryn> well, based on my random map doodling...
20090624 19:00:57< Aethaeryn> it's in a snowy, mountainous area to the north
20090624 19:01:33< Aethaeryn> NR, been a while too
20090624 19:01:49< Aethaeryn> thespaceinvader: is Krash the one you save in the lich lair underground? or is that another campaign altogether?
20090624 19:01:58< thespaceinvader> yes, that's the one
20090624 19:02:31< Aethaeryn> damn, that's an extremely long campaign, especially with the big map style
20090624 19:03:39< Rrenys> terrible as well
20090624 19:03:45< thespaceinvader> NR?
20090624 19:03:47< Rrenys> yes
20090624 19:03:51< thespaceinvader> i find it quite enjoyable
20090624 19:04:01< thespaceinvader> though there are a few levels which could stand to be a little smaller...
20090624 19:04:35< Aethaeryn> eh, I don't think I finished it
20090624 19:04:50< Aethaeryn> I believe I enjoyed it until a point, where I said, "Not again." at the 1000th large battle map
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20090624 19:07:20-!- patchpatch is now known as Shadow_Master
20090624 19:11:07< esr> Ivanovic: I'm not really available until the crisis in Iran resolves.  See http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=1096
20090624 19:11:52< Ivanovic> pl
20090624 19:11:52< Aethaeryn> esr: Iran?
20090624 19:11:55< Aethaeryn> Interesting.
20090624 19:11:56< Ivanovic> s/pl/ok
20090624 19:12:02< Aethaeryn> Good luck.
20090624 19:12:49< Aethaeryn> oooh, Tor is interesting technology. I have it installed but I haven't used it in a while. Last time I used it, my Google homepage was in German for some reason ;)
20090624 19:13:04< Shadow_Master> Tor is a thorn for Freenode.
20090624 19:13:24< Aethaeryn> yeah, well I'd possibly ever use tor if not for my frequent IRC usage
20090624 19:14:56< Aethaeryn> hmmm
20090624 19:15:07< Aethaeryn> esr's blog post is actually extremely interesting...
20090624 19:15:12< Aethaeryn> about the stealth network thing.
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20090624 19:37:51< mordante> servus
20090624 19:41:50< CIA-53> ilor * r36388 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 2 dirs): server room listing and room member list + /command interface in client
20090624 19:51:10< CIA-53> mordante * r36389 /branches/1.6/ (2 files in 2 dirs): 
20090624 19:51:10< CIA-53> Properly mark strings translatable (bug #13751).
20090624 19:51:10< CIA-53> This adds two translatable strings.
20090624 19:51:20< mordante> Ivanovic, ^
20090624 19:51:48< Ivanovic> okay
20090624 19:51:58< Ivanovic> don't forget to commit this fix to trunk, too
20090624 19:52:35< Turuk> Ivanovic, what's the command people need to type to install all the campaigns?
20090624 19:53:08< Ivanovic> Turuk: you mean on debian or one of the likes?
20090624 19:53:15< mordante> Ivanovic, busy porting it at the moment
20090624 19:53:19< Shadow_Master> wesnoth_addon_manager something
20090624 19:53:23< Ivanovic> probably something to install the package named "wesnoth-all" i'd guess
20090624 19:53:24< Turuk> Yes, there's a tech support question I want to answer but I cannot think of it
20090624 19:53:32< Turuk> Ah yes, thanks
20090624 19:53:34< Shadow_Master> ah, was thinking UMC.
20090624 19:53:42< Ivanovic> have a look at packages.debian.net to get an idea of the stuff
20090624 19:53:45< Soliton> i'd ask him what the heck he's talking about.
20090624 19:53:51< Shadow_Master> sudo aptitude install wesnoth-all   ?
20090624 19:53:54< Soliton> but it'd be my guess, too.
20090624 19:53:56< CIA-53> mordante * r36390 /trunk/ (2 files in 2 dirs): Properly mark strings translatable (bug #13751).
20090624 19:55:10< Turuk> Yeah, he didn't provide much info, but that's what I figure it is
20090624 20:00:34-!- grzywacz [n=grzywacz@wesnoth/developer/grzywacz] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090624 20:00:52< grzywacz> hi
20090624 20:01:00< Ivanovic> hi grzywacz
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20090624 20:06:28< mordante> hi grzywacz 
20090624 20:08:28< grzywacz> mordante, did you see that fr I assigned to you as a reminder? ;)
20090624 20:08:49< mordante> grzywacz, I just replied to it ;-)
20090624 20:11:02< grzywacz> oops ;)
20090624 20:11:27< mordante> well with just I also meant just ;-)
20090624 20:11:48< grzywacz> ah, cool. :)
20090624 20:11:55< grzywacz> thanks
20090624 20:12:51< Soliton> grzywacz: #8135 is already fixed, no?
20090624 20:12:56< mordante> no problem, I just never notice the FR before
20090624 20:14:01< grzywacz> mordante, I started to plow through them today, there's a ton of old/irrelevant ones and having 241 FRs open only discourages people from looking at them ;)
20090624 20:14:26< mordante> not afaik, but not sure you might ping ilor about it as well
20090624 20:14:54< mordante> grzywacz, very true, I once did the same with the bugs and the count is now reasonable
20090624 20:15:04< mordante> thanks for doing it
20090624 20:15:10< ilor> ping ilor about what? ;)
20090624 20:15:14< Soliton> grzywacz: i'd say #9591 is fixed as well, except for the button showing the current setting. it now defaults to each team for mp replays.
20090624 20:15:28< mordante> I hope to find the time and motivation to look into more FR's once GUI2 is done
20090624 20:15:36< mordante> ilor, https://gna.org/bugs/?4694
20090624 20:15:39< grzywacz> Soliton, yeh, I'd say 8135 can be closed
20090624 20:16:04< Ivanovic> mordante: many FRs are related to gui stuff and can probably be closed once you think that GUI2 is *really* done
20090624 20:16:05< Ivanovic> ;)
20090624 20:16:13< grzywacz> Soliton, #9591 probably, but I don't really know what it is about ;)
20090624 20:16:15< mordante> yeah
20090624 20:16:55< Soliton> grzywacz: replays used to always start with player1 only view which is annoying for mp replays.
20090624 20:16:57< mordante> well once I think GUI is getting really far I'll start to look at all UI bugs/FR's 
20090624 20:18:24< Rrenys> did west abandon his gui stuff?
20090624 20:18:31< mordante> btw grzywacz I want to work on the stacked widget next week, after that we can implement the laurel icon
20090624 20:18:38-!- YogiHH [n=chatzill@d020007.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090624 20:18:54< mordante> Rrenys, not sure last thing he said, was that he's busy
20090624 20:18:54< YogiHH> hello
20090624 20:18:56< mordante> hi YogiHH 
20090624 20:19:04< grzywacz> Soliton, ah. then yes, close by all means 
20090624 20:19:04-!- loonybot [n=loonybot@79.139.136.167] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090624 20:19:12< grzywacz> mordante, superb!
20090624 20:20:43< YogiHH> Ivanovic: what about release cycles, are we heading for half a year now (which would mean pretty soon) or is it still IIRWIIR? In other words, is it a bad idea to start coding something which might take some months now?
20090624 20:20:43< wesbot> YogiHH: It Is Ready When It Is Ready
20090624 20:20:58< YogiHH> i know, wesbot, i know :-)
20090624 20:21:03< Ivanovic> YogiHH: in general IIRWIIR
20090624 20:21:14< Ivanovic> though i would like to see the next one shortly after the end of SoC
20090624 20:21:36< YogiHH> ok, i see. Sounds reasonable.
20090624 20:21:40< Ivanovic> that is once 1.7.1 is out i will tell the translators that they can already start working on most stuff
20090624 20:21:47< Ivanovic> so they are not hanging behind too much
20090624 20:22:03-!- loonycyborg [n=sergey@79.139.136.167] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090624 20:22:24< grzywacz> Soliton, do you know if this is still valid? https://gna.org/bugs/?3779
20090624 20:22:35< Ivanovic> with other words: if you can start a new feature now that needs "a little longer" depends on you and if you think you can get it done in about two months (plus some weeks for bugfixing)
20090624 20:24:05< mordante> well I hope we manage to do 1.8 shortly after gsoc and see how the shorter release cycle works out
20090624 20:25:12< Ivanovic> mordante: somehow i'd say feature freeze starting with end of SoC and about a month fixing open bugs
20090624 20:25:36< grzywacz> mordante, help is still the old gui, right?
20090624 20:25:39< Soliton> grzywacz: still valid. not sure if a fix is really wanted though. ask zookeeper.
20090624 20:25:45< mordante> sounds reasonable 
20090624 20:25:51< grzywacz> mordante, https://gna.org/bugs/?8153
20090624 20:25:54< grzywacz> zookeeper, ^
20090624 20:26:00< mordante> yes still old gui and won't change soon :-(
20090624 20:26:27< zookeeper> sure, i'd prefer "team wins" and "team loses"
20090624 20:26:29< zookeeper> ask noy ;)
20090624 20:26:34< grzywacz> lol
20090624 20:26:38< noy> ?
20090624 20:26:50< zookeeper> i'm not sure who else wants "side wins" and "side loses", but i
20090624 20:26:56< zookeeper> but i'm pretty sure at least noy does
20090624 20:27:01< mordante> grzywacz, feel free to reassign it to me
20090624 20:27:06< noy> I don't 
20090624 20:27:11< noy> I think if you die, you're dead
20090624 20:27:24< noy> meaning you lose!
20090624 20:27:56< noy> Wesnoth mp is not an exercise in martyrdom. 
20090624 20:28:04< grzywacz> mordante, ok, done :)
20090624 20:28:20< YogiHH> mordante: what about the load_game dialog? I noticed that the new gui2 version has some additional information in it, that is not trivial to deliver. Was that just a try or is this supposed to be the (more or less) final layout?
20090624 20:28:41< Ivanovic> noy: maybe something like "but at least your allies won..." can work
20090624 20:29:12< Ivanovic> (explicitly excluding the user, maybe even adding something like "tough this won't help you much in death")
20090624 20:29:24< noy> Eh, maybe but I can think of a couple of MP scenarios where that might not be applicable
20090624 20:29:46< noy> where you're allied with other partners in your band, but its more of a competition 
20090624 20:31:28< Rrenys> there could be options for the defeat message then per scenario, for modifying it from the default team-friendly version in those (rare) cases?
20090624 20:31:32< grzywacz> How about something like this: https://gna.org/bugs/?4459 ?;-)
20090624 20:31:43< grzywacz> esp. https://gna.org/file/mp_summary2.png?file_id=185
20090624 20:31:48< noy> I still think that if you die, you've lost. 
20090624 20:31:53< mordante> YogiHH, I'm somewhat confused, I didn't add a new load_game dialog
20090624 20:31:54< grzywacz> Yet another forgotten FR.
20090624 20:32:25< mordante> YogiHH, where did you find the code?
20090624 20:32:28< YogiHH> mordante: if you start wesnoth with --new_widgets (or whatever it was) it looks very much different
20090624 20:32:39< YogiHH> mordante: and it is not fully functional
20090624 20:32:47< mordante> you mean the title screen?
20090624 20:32:47< noy> and that in the harshness of my heart that you shouldn't sugar coat the fact you couldn't keep your leader alive. 
20090624 20:33:02< YogiHH> mordante: erm, no, the dialog to load a savegame
20090624 20:33:19< YogiHH> which i tried to fix the minimap for
20090624 20:34:39< noy> Finally, I don't think this is a major concern... not many people complain about this and understand that if you die and your ally wins, you're still dead. 
20090624 20:34:58< zookeeper> noy, well, i think that it should be an option in some form. whether a toggle in the game creation UI itself or just something that the scenario can set.
20090624 20:35:12< noy> thats fine. 
20090624 20:35:23< mordante> YogiHH, I never added that dialog so no idea about its status
20090624 20:35:42< noy> zookeeper: I'm kinda surprised it isn't at this point
20090624 20:35:51< YogiHH> mordante: hmm, so what happens if i use that command line switch?
20090624 20:37:00< mordante> the switch is --new-widgets and it enables some experimental dialogs I added, most of them too broken to be used
20090624 20:37:42< mordante> I just use it to test experimental things to slowly move it to a working statys
20090624 20:37:44< mordante> status*
20090624 20:37:46< grzywacz> Soliton, what about this one? https://gna.org/bugs/?4303
20090624 20:37:59< YogiHH> mordante: ok, i see. So moving the load_game dialog to gui2 will become my next project, then :-)
20090624 20:38:48< mordante> great :-)
20090624 20:39:43< Soliton> grzywacz: err, is that just about the scenario config name?
20090624 20:39:52< Soliton> grzywacz: that map is long gone.
20090624 20:39:53-!- euschn [n=chatzill@wesnoth/developer/euschn] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090624 20:39:56< euschn> hi
20090624 20:40:04< grzywacz> Soliton, that's my understanding of the summary, yes.
20090624 20:40:16< Soliton> grzywacz: there is no real sorting of the list otherwise though.
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20090624 20:40:21< Soliton> grzywacz: fixed then.
20090624 20:40:33< grzywacz> Soliton, so is it by filename?
20090624 20:40:55< Soliton> i think so.
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20090624 20:41:25< grzywacz> ok, marked as fixed and closed
20090624 20:41:34< Soliton> i just had trouble finding some scenario, btw.. a filter box like we have elsewhere could be nice.
20090624 20:42:16-!- Crab_ [i=crab@wesnoth/developer/crab] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090624 20:48:00< isaac> j
20090624 20:48:06< CIA-53> euschn * r36391 /trunk/src/ (menu_events.hpp replay_controller.cpp replay_controller.hpp): removed gamestatus member from replay_controller and gamestatus declaration from menu_events
20090624 20:58:22-!- silene [n=plouf@wesnoth/developer/silene] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090624 20:58:27< silene> hi
20090624 20:58:37< YogiHH> hi silene
20090624 21:02:02< grzywacz> hi there
20090624 21:02:21< mordante> hi silene 
20090624 21:05:42< Aethaeryn> is Lua now in the 1.7 line of Wesnoth? I had to install the -devel package of Lua when compiling the SVN, iirc
20090624 21:07:21< Shadow_Master> yes
20090624 21:07:30< Aethaeryn> damn
20090624 21:07:37< Aethaeryn> I love platformers, why did that have to be April Fools?
20090624 21:09:11< Aethaeryn> Super Mario World is still one of my favorite games, and that was like, what? 1992?
20090624 21:09:59< Shadow_Master> Frogatto ain't no joke
20090624 21:10:52< Shadow_Master> that joke was more serious than other jokes too, judging from jetryl's comments. I read that there was actual art from the screenshots.
20090624 21:11:40< Rrenys> o_O what do you need svn for? Are you getting into development & stuff too?
20090624 21:12:16< Aethaeryn> Rrenys: I've always been more of a mapper/modder than player in strategy games
20090624 21:12:39< Aethaeryn> since campaigns take a lot of time, tomorrow's stable campaigns are today's development-version campaigns :P
20090624 21:14:03< Shadow_Master> Rrenys: UMC developers also love SVN.
20090624 21:14:31< Shadow_Master> and since compiling wesnoth is brain-dead easy if you have the correct platform and package managers...
20090624 21:16:30< Aethaeryn> it's as easy as typing "svn up," waiting, typing "scons," waiting, typing "./wesnoth"
20090624 21:16:35< Aethaeryn> at least, if you have all the dependencies
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20090624 21:20:23< loonycyborg> Aethaeryn: That is easy unless you're mortally afraid of command line like some windows users seem to be :P
20090624 21:20:39< fendrin> hi
20090624 21:20:53-!- Shadow_Master is now known as Trap
20090624 21:20:54-!- maxy [n=maxy@84-74-83-103.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit []
20090624 21:21:04< Aethaeryn> loonycyborg: keyword: windows users
20090624 21:21:17< mordante> I'm also afraid of the command line on Window :-P
20090624 21:21:21< Aethaeryn> I've always found the command line, if you're not afriad of googling/IRC to be easier than menus
20090624 21:21:25< mordante> Windows*
20090624 21:21:37 * fendrin is afraid of windows with or without commandline.
20090624 21:21:47< Aethaeryn> I'd rather learn a command once and be able to do something in 3 seconds, then have to navigate a control panel that changes every few years
20090624 21:21:51< Aethaeryn> look at open vs. explore
20090624 21:22:01< Aethaeryn> explore used to open a new window, now open opens a new window and explore opens the same window
20090624 21:22:08< Aethaeryn> difference between 2000 (and XP?) and Vista
20090624 21:22:09-!- Trap is now known as patchpatch
20090624 21:22:17< Aethaeryn> might make it more intuitive, but makes it harder on older Windows users
20090624 21:22:25< loonycyborg> Yep. Command line is faster than clicking through multiple levels of menu..
20090624 21:22:26< mordante> fendrin, I got less afraid of Windows, since I started to use it as host for virtual box ;-)
20090624 21:22:49< Aethaeryn> mordante: hands down, I'd have Linux as the host OS and Windows as the guest
20090624 21:22:53< Aethaeryn> if I tried any virtualization
20090624 21:23:22< fendrin> mordante: windows runs as host (meta)? or client?
20090624 21:23:23< Aethaeryn> Linux is just far more stable, and on my old computer (a Linux-only desktop vs. my new dual boot laptop), I'd have uptime of 100-160 days.
20090624 21:23:37< mordante> well on my work I need to program for both Windows and Linux... guess which I use as main platform ;-)
20090624 21:24:01-!- patchpatch is now known as Shadow_Master
20090624 21:24:03< mordante> fendrin, host and sometimes as client to test software on a clean Windows
20090624 21:24:27< YogiHH> Soliton: can you tell me in one or two sentences what this x=recall, y=recall WML stuff is doing?
20090624 21:24:37-!- fendrin [n=fabi@wesnoth/developer/fendrin] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090624 21:24:48 * mordante gives Shadow_Master the title Rename_Master
20090624 21:24:56< Aethaeryn> mordante: that's one of the reasons why I'd like to learn how to program, but refuse to take formal computer classes
20090624 21:25:03< Aethaeryn> I'd rather not work with Windows
20090624 21:25:15< Aethaeryn> in computer classes, Linux is a secondary OS if there at all
20090624 21:25:20< mordante> which language do you want to learn?
20090624 21:25:29< Aethaeryn> well, I didn't really have time at all
20090624 21:25:33< Aethaeryn> but preferably, something useful
20090624 21:25:48< Aethaeryn> I know I *can* learn how to program. I know Media Wiki syntax, I know some WML, etc.
20090624 21:25:52< Shadow_Master> mordante: stuff going oin elsewhere
20090624 21:25:54< Aethaeryn> just nothing particularly real programming
20090624 21:26:27< Aethaeryn> besides, I am just good at computers, figuring things out with computers, etc. I just never got around to learn to program
20090624 21:26:44< Aethaeryn> I'm basically go-to tech support with relatives, it gets annoying (especially since I find Windows Vista extremely annoying)
20090624 21:27:18< mordante> well you want to program, so I assume you have some idea what you want to do with it
20090624 21:27:34< Rrenys> opensuse is certainly more annoying
20090624 21:27:41< mordante> there are several languages, with both strong and weak points
20090624 21:28:01< Aethaeryn> mordante: nothing career, really
20090624 21:28:06< loonycyborg> Aethaeryn: WML is a language too :)
20090624 21:28:26< Aethaeryn> loonycyborg: as is Lua, I did some (limited) Lua many years ago for a different game
20090624 21:28:32< mordante> Aethaeryn, no but do you want to write small games or write small tools to help you on the command line
20090624 21:28:33< Aethaeryn> probably forgot all of it 
20090624 21:28:52< Aethaeryn> mordante: what about small patches to Wesnoth?
20090624 21:29:07< mordante> :-)
20090624 21:29:17< Aethaeryn> so many borderline, grey-area ideas (I've been around long enough to get ideas that aren't despised/noobish) that basically come down to "get someone to code it"
20090624 21:29:35< Aethaeryn> and the best person to code it is the person who has the idea :P
20090624 21:29:37-!- dr_ [n=chatzill@74.13.197.132] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20090624 21:29:58< mordante> Wesnoth is written in C++, so if you want to work on Wesnoth that would be a good language to learn
20090624 21:30:45< mordante> IMO often the language doesn't matter that much as long as you start to use it, which often is easier if you have a goal
20090624 21:31:09-!- fendrin [n=fabi@e179181173.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090624 21:31:12< Aethaeryn> really, I have faith that I could pick it up on my own
20090624 21:31:17< natasiel> I got some problems hosting multiplayer campain on official server; the client disconnect, bringing me back to main menu
20090624 21:31:34< Aethaeryn> just seems most guides are sub-par
20090624 21:31:38< Ivanovic> Aethaeryn: uhm, does it suprise you when i tell you that at the university i study at there is basically nothing in windows?
20090624 21:31:41< Aethaeryn> and again, I'd rather not learn via someone else's lesson plan
20090624 21:31:53< Ivanovic> as in: if you want to use a windows box of course you can login into some terminal server
20090624 21:32:01< Aethaeryn> Ivanovic: if you're outside of the US, it does not surprise me
20090624 21:32:02< Ivanovic> from either a solaris or a debian
20090624 21:32:04< Aethaeryn> Ivanovic: if you're in the US, it does
20090624 21:32:13< Ivanovic> of course i am in europe
20090624 21:32:30< Aethaeryn> though my computer science friends complain about having to use Linux (Red Hat Enterprise) for some of their projects :P
20090624 21:32:46< Aethaeryn> they apparently are very anti-terminal
20090624 21:32:48< Ivanovic> i'd complain if i had to use windows...
20090624 21:33:00< Aethaeryn> which I find hilarous because I'm chatting right now via the GNOME Terminal using irssi
20090624 21:33:04< mordante> Aethaeryn, just buy a good book on the language you want to learn
20090624 21:33:16< Aethaeryn> when I type 100 words per minute, I'm much more comfortable with a keystroke than a mouse
20090624 21:33:30< Aethaeryn> I use keystroke to end turns in Wesnoth, for example
20090624 21:33:38< fendrin> 100 words per minute?
20090624 21:33:57< Shadow_Master> what does "drawn and quartered" mean in english?
20090624 21:34:11< fendrin> Aethaeryn: your native language must rely on very short words.
20090624 21:34:22< Aethaeryn> fendrin: English
20090624 21:34:26< Rrenys> a method of execution
20090624 21:34:40< Aethaeryn> if I typed in German or something similar, I'm sure it would be slower
20090624 21:34:49< Shadow_Master> Rrenys: sounds awfully painful somehow
20090624 21:34:59< Aethaeryn> since German is a lot more heavy on the compound words
20090624 21:35:08< mordante> 100 words per minute is really high
20090624 21:35:35< grzywacz> Anyone up for a 3vs3 game? We're still missing 3 players :P
20090624 21:35:41< Rrenys> Shadow_Master, wikipedia has an article on it
20090624 21:35:44< Aethaeryn> mordante: yes, I know
20090624 21:35:44< fendrin> Aethaeryn: That's true. Often gui dialogs are designed to small to contain the germain translation and don't scale. (even in kde which is used in germany much)
20090624 21:36:02< Aethaeryn> mordante: I was in the 60s range in elementry/middle school typing classes
20090624 21:36:17< Ivanovic> fendrin: it improved a lot lately (with the 4.x kde series)
20090624 21:36:23< Aethaeryn> now factor in a social life in high school primarilly around online communities, and you see a lot of time to hone those skills
20090624 21:36:40< Aethaeryn> I was surprised that I was in the 90-100 range when I measured my speed
20090624 21:36:40< mordante> I had around 200 characters per minute and that was already considered rather fast
20090624 21:36:55< Ivanovic> the problem is not that german is too verbose, the problem is that english is the first target lang for most software and this lang has too many too short words
20090624 21:37:07< Ivanovic> which results in problems for many langs (german being one of them)
20090624 21:37:09< Aethaeryn> (90-100, depending on motivation, and caffeine levels)
20090624 21:37:37< mordante> IMO German is rather verbose
20090624 21:37:48< Aethaeryn> mordante: not your opinion, just a fact
20090624 21:37:56< Aethaeryn> look at how many compound words it uses
20090624 21:37:59< Aethaeryn> very big, compound words
20090624 21:38:11< Ivanovic> german is rather verbose, but many "western languages" are more verbose than english
20090624 21:38:16< loonycyborg> Especially, numerals :P
20090624 21:38:19< mordante> yeah, well Dutch is also rather good at that part ;-)
20090624 21:38:30< Aethaeryn> Dutch seems a lot like half-English half-German
20090624 21:38:32< fendrin> Aethaeryn: And you can create new ones on the fly. The german word alphabet is infinate for that reason.
20090624 21:38:34< Aethaeryn> probably due to geography
20090624 21:39:00< Aethaeryn> fendrin: yes, I'm almost envious at the ability to create proper nouns in German
20090624 21:39:05< Aethaeryn> fendrin: and the titles actually almost always sound awesome
20090624 21:39:10< mordante> jup guess so too
20090624 21:39:38< Aethaeryn> then again, I don't know too much German. Latin was the language I chose to take in high school.
20090624 21:40:07< Aethaeryn> it's just hard to use the Internet without encountering German, especially in FOSS circles
20090624 21:40:22< Aethaeryn> I think Germany uses SuSE a lot
20090624 21:40:27< Aethaeryn> here in US, the fad is Ubuntu
20090624 21:40:30< Aethaeryn> (I use Fedora)
20090624 21:40:43< Ivanovic> suse once was really strong in germany, it is not this strong anymore
20090624 21:40:48< Aethaeryn> (so that makes me have more in common with the Brazillian FOSS community?)
20090624 21:41:18< Aethaeryn> Ivanovic: I had a German friend on IRC a few years ago, and she was very big into Linux, and used SuSE
20090624 21:41:18 * Ivanovic uses gentoo, what does this make of me?
20090624 21:41:34< fendrin> Ivanovic: A nerdy geek.
20090624 21:41:49< Smar> I still say gentoo is distro for lazy people.
20090624 21:41:49< Ivanovic> fendrin: ah, you mean a computer science student, right?
20090624 21:42:00< Ivanovic> Smar: of course it is
20090624 21:42:09< Ivanovic> for lazy people with some time
20090624 21:42:09< Shadow_Master> Debian is for lazy people, not Gentoo
20090624 21:42:11< Smar> I just wonder why people don’t get it
20090624 21:42:13< Aethaeryn> Ivanovic: Falkland Islander?
20090624 21:42:17 * Shadow_Master is lazy and uses Debian
20090624 21:42:18< CIA-53> mordante * r36392 /trunk/ (8 files in 4 dirs): Move gui2::tbuilder_panel to its own file.
20090624 21:42:19< Aethaeryn> that's where real gentoo penguins are
20090624 21:42:20< Smar> people like Shadow_Master 
20090624 21:42:21< Ivanovic> (or ways to spend time while waiting for compilation to finish)
20090624 21:42:25< fendrin> emerge world; wait (4 days);
20090624 21:42:46< Ivanovic> Shadow_Master: the problem with debian is the split between normal and dev packages
20090624 21:42:56< Aethaeryn> hey
20090624 21:42:58< Ivanovic> if i want to compile on the box i tend to also want the includes
20090624 21:42:59< Aethaeryn> Fedora does that too
20090624 21:43:06< Smar> I actually need this compilation stuff too often
20090624 21:43:08< Shadow_Master> Ivanovic: foo
20090624 21:43:12< mordante> fendrin, only 4 days... I expected 6
20090624 21:43:15< Ivanovic> Aethaeryn: i know and i don't like this about most distros out there
20090624 21:43:16< Shadow_Master> I like that method
20090624 21:43:16< Aethaeryn> I admit it's a bit annoying, because, for instance, I'll have Lua installed and then i'll have to install lua-devel to compile Wesnoth
20090624 21:43:21< Ivanovic> mordante: on my box it is even only 12h
20090624 21:43:25< Shadow_Master> it helps me save me disk space
20090624 21:43:29< fendrin> mordante: depends on level of optimization
20090624 21:43:53< Smar> what means updating world? :P
20090624 21:43:54< Aethaeryn> Shadow_Master: idk, I have 54 GB free on this partition and I have a sizable music collection
20090624 21:43:57< mordante> Ivanovic, great so you have 6.5 days of rest
20090624 21:44:04< Smar> recompiling it would take that 12h 
20090624 21:44:04< Aethaeryn> and lots of old game files, like old versions of Wesnoth
20090624 21:44:17< Aethaeryn> lots and lots of old files
20090624 21:44:22< Ivanovic> Sysinfo for 'rechner1': Linux 2.6.30 running KDE 4.2.4 (KDE 4.2.4), CPU: Intel(R) Core 2 Quad  CPU   Q9300  @ 2.50GHz at 2000 MHz (5049 bogomips), HD: 431/1162GB, RAM: 1784/3951MB, 168 proc's, 1.17h up
20090624 21:44:37< Ivanovic> i'd say i got enough free space on my hd for the includes
20090624 21:44:38< Ivanovic> ;)
20090624 21:45:58< fendrin> df -h : encfs                 2.7T  601G  2.1T  22% /home/fabi
20090624 21:46:16< Ivanovic> Aethaeryn: if i was using a binary dist i would probably use arch
20090624 21:46:33< Ivanovic> (since that gives me about the same freedom as gentoo while not splitting into dev and normal packages)
20090624 21:47:18< Smar> (and I heard it allows some flexibility through compilation even)
20090624 21:48:18< Aethaeryn> idk
20090624 21:48:21< Aethaeryn> I really like Fedora
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20090624 21:48:44-!- Noyga [n=lame-z@wesnoth/developer/noyga] has left #wesnoth-dev ["Quitte"]
20090624 21:49:23< Aethaeryn> I haven't really tried other distros recently.
20090624 21:49:58< Aethaeryn> Ubuntu seems to make a lot of converts on being "newbie friendly," but that also kind of makes someone like me, a Linux user for many years, usually exclusively as an OS, not like it.
20090624 21:50:31< Aethaeryn> meanwhile a lot of the more "professional" distros that require a lot of compiling also don't seem like my cup of tea, so to speak
20090624 21:50:46< Aethaeryn> it's annoying enough when I compile something and then am missing dependencies and have to go on the package manager to get it
20090624 21:50:48< mordante> I still like debian a lot and will stick with it for now
20090624 21:50:57< Aethaeryn> it would be more annoying if I had to compile those dependencies, just more time consuming
20090624 21:50:59< Ivanovic> "[21:50:45] <Aethaeryn> it's annoying enough when I compile something and then am missing dependencies and have to go on the package manager to get it"
20090624 21:51:04< Ivanovic> that is what the package manager is for
20090624 21:51:09< Ivanovic> it does handle getting the packages
20090624 21:51:34< Ivanovic> when i just installed a new gentoo i just run "emerge kde-base-meta"  and get all the stuff like xorg and whatever
20090624 21:51:55< Aethaeryn> eh, I'm not a big fan of KDE 4
20090624 21:52:03< Aethaeryn> and I only used KDE 3 rarely.
20090624 21:52:11< Aethaeryn> Fedora seems like a good GNOME distro
20090624 21:52:14< Ivanovic> basically the same if you wanted gnome or xfce or e17 or...
20090624 21:52:36< mordante> I'm a big fan of fvwm simple and configurable
20090624 21:53:27< Ivanovic> that is the great thing about linux: freedom of choice
20090624 21:53:31< Ivanovic> you just take what you like best
20090624 21:54:04< Aethaeryn> yeah
20090624 21:54:08< Aethaeryn> Fedora's just my personal taste
20090624 21:54:08< mordante> yes, that's the greatest part of it
20090624 21:54:37< Aethaeryn> the only distro I don't really like is Ubuntu, but that's really an issue of philosophy/popularity
20090624 21:55:11< Rrenys> why is popularity a bad thing.
20090624 21:55:17< Rrenys> one would assume the opposite
20090624 21:57:00< CIA-53> mordante * r36393 /trunk/ (8 files in 4 dirs): Move gui2::tbuilder_toggle_panel to its own file.
20090624 21:58:07< Shadow_Master> its userbbase is mostly populated by people who believe "it's a version of windows"?
20090624 21:58:19< Shadow_Master> no idea, but I heard some moron at uni say that.
20090624 21:58:34< Aethaeryn> Rrenys: popularity of technical people = good, and there are some things Ubuntu does that I envy; it's also better supported in some things
20090624 21:58:55< Aethaeryn> but it also has some arrogance to it
20090624 21:59:22< Aethaeryn> like, a lot of Ubuntu Linux people treat Ubuntu like it's own OS
20090624 21:59:23< Rrenys> the only bad thing i could think of was that it is easier to target a single distro with a virus than many different distros; but thats not a real problem right now
20090624 21:59:46< Shadow_Master> Aethaeryn: any linux distribution tends to be an OS in itself
20090624 21:59:52< zookeeper> Aethaeryn, how is it not?
20090624 22:00:03< Rrenys> i think no linux owner ever says "i have linux"
20090624 22:00:04< Shadow_Master> there's no "Linux operating system"
20090624 22:00:08< Aethaeryn> meh, it's just a perception of Ubuntu...
20090624 22:00:12< Aethaeryn> that's all
20090624 22:00:26< Ivanovic> there are several problems i see with ubuntu (though other distros have the same "problems"):
20090624 22:00:38< Shadow_Master> ah, please, we know it already Ivanovic 
20090624 22:00:41< Ivanovic> - splitted packages (dev and normal)
20090624 22:00:45< zookeeper> yeah, they've dared to make something that's best called "operating system" and not "a linux distribution" :p
20090624 22:00:47< Shadow_Master> it's all because of the lack of easy source code access
20090624 22:00:58< Ivanovic> - fixed released and just patching the versions shipped there (IMO rolling release is better)
20090624 22:01:01< Aethaeryn> I just don't like Ubuntu, that's all. If I was a multimillionaire I'd approach a mainstream Linux distro a far different way
20090624 22:01:04< Aethaeryn> that's all
20090624 22:01:17< Rrenys> how would you apporoach it, then.
20090624 22:01:23< Ivanovic> - extreme patches, all stuff is often "hardcore" patched, changing even the default interface *a lot*
20090624 22:01:26< Shadow_Master> Aethaeryn: you do realize that many components of Ubuntu are shared with Debian GNU/Linux ?
20090624 22:01:34< Shadow_Master> it's not just Ubuntu.
20090624 22:02:10< Aethaeryn> Rrenys: well, first of all, I'm a visual person. While I don't really like Macs, I kind of understand what they're getting at.
20090624 22:02:11< mordante> Ivanovic, I've no blockers left for 1.7.1 and probably won't be around when you tag
20090624 22:02:20< Ivanovic> great
20090624 22:02:34< Aethaeryn> I wouldn't make a new desktop environment per se, but definitely extend GNOME
20090624 22:02:51< Aethaeryn> there are some programs that do this, but not quite 100% polished as I saw them
20090624 22:03:28< Aethaeryn> second of all, I understand how you can profit with a server (Red Hat, Novell), but you will never be able to make Ubuntu profitable if you want to give it away for free and not piss of Linux users
20090624 22:03:35< Shadow_Master> Aethaeryn: check openSUSE's default GNOME desktop, perhaps
20090624 22:03:48< Shadow_Master> or go KDE. (go KDE, go KDE, GO KDE!!!) :)
20090624 22:03:51< Aethaeryn> the only way a home-use distro can be profitable imo is similar to how Mac makes its money
20090624 22:03:54< Aethaeryn> hardware
20090624 22:04:06< Shadow_Master> using less newlines may help too
20090624 22:04:08< Rrenys> Aethaeryn, talking of visuals, interestingly ive had many times more gui crashes on linux than any sort of crashes together on windows.
20090624 22:04:08< Ivanovic> Aethaeryn: the distros make their money with support
20090624 22:04:34< Ivanovic> so: most users won't bring them money
20090624 22:04:42< Aethaeryn> if profits from a Linux-oriented hardware company went toward development of a distro they also supported, it'd work a lot more
20090624 22:04:43< Ivanovic> but companies want support contracts
20090624 22:04:53< Aethaeryn> exactly
20090624 22:05:05< Aethaeryn> the support model is brilliant when it comes to corporate but doesn't translate to home use as well
20090624 22:05:10< Ivanovic> so distributors provide those (for money)
20090624 22:05:21< Aethaeryn> I can see a hardware Linux company screwing it up, or getting too proprietary or something...
20090624 22:05:26< Aethaeryn> but if done right, I think that's where you can profit
20090624 22:05:29-!- euschn [n=chatzill@wesnoth/developer/euschn] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090624 22:05:30< Ivanovic> the reason is simple: most home users don't want to pay for support
20090624 22:05:34< Aethaeryn> exactly
20090624 22:05:44< Aethaeryn> that's why you need to make money off of the computer sales...
20090624 22:05:59< Aethaeryn> you eat a loss on the OS, but then transfer the profit from the computer sales to the OS divison
20090624 22:06:17< Aethaeryn> most average people don't care about the OS as a separate product, they see the OS and the computer as the same thing
20090624 22:06:20< loonycyborg> Aethaeryn: Perhaps support model could work for home use if you bundle support contracts with hardware :P
20090624 22:06:33< Aethaeryn> loonycyborg: yes, either way, I think the key is providing the hardware
20090624 22:06:44< Aethaeryn> if I were a multimillionaire, I'd make a Linux hardware company...
20090624 22:06:51< Aethaeryn> or just try to get a deal with an already-existing company 
20090624 22:07:04< Rrenys> if I were a multimillionaire, id build a castle & not care about any OSs
20090624 22:07:10< Aethaeryn> then, if you have a hardware product (a physical product, though in the spirit of linux the distro is still free online)...
20090624 22:07:18< Aethaeryn> you can focus on marketing better too
20090624 22:07:24< loonycyborg> AFAIK there already are some companies who provide hardware with linux preinstalled.
20090624 22:07:34< Aethaeryn> I'd hate to sound cynical, but as long as you market to a right segment niche, they'll buy anything
20090624 22:07:40< Aethaeryn> (of course, as long as it's not crap)
20090624 22:07:42< loonycyborg> That is specialize on that.
20090624 22:08:08< Aethaeryn> Linux is a great product, it just needs polish... an OS that appropriately visually polishes it and makes money on hardware would be able to have more full-time developers than an existing distro
20090624 22:08:24< Aethaeryn> loonycyborg: yes, there are several
20090624 22:08:30< Aethaeryn> loonycyborg: they lack millions of dollars in advertizing though
20090624 22:08:39< Aethaeryn> create a buzz around a product and people will buy it, even if superior competitors exist
20090624 22:08:42< Aethaeryn> look at the iPhone
20090624 22:08:47< Aethaeryn> Apple is great at finding niches
20090624 22:08:54< Aethaeryn> if Apple didn't have good marketing, it'd be dead already
20090624 22:08:56< Rrenys> name superior competitors for iphone
20090624 22:09:13< Aethaeryn> Microsoft on the other hand seems to throw money at marketing, but often sucks at it
20090624 22:09:19< Aethaeryn> that's why the perception of Vista was so negative
20090624 22:09:34< Aethaeryn> don't get me wrong, I'd hate Vista regardless of marketing, but the masses aren't like that
20090624 22:10:40-!- Shadow_Master is now known as patchpatch
20090624 22:10:55< Aethaeryn> I stand firmly behind the idea that making profit on hardware + better marketing = better way to a mainstream distro
20090624 22:11:11< Aethaeryn> just selling the OS like software and then making money on support will only get you so far
20090624 22:11:29< Aethaeryn> especially since you're competing against a free and equal-in-feature version of yourself
20090624 22:12:14< Aethaeryn> of course, I'm not a multimillionaire, maybe I'll win the lottery or maybe some rich investor will hear my idea and get all the money for it :P
20090624 22:12:34< Rrenys> your idea isnt that original to be worth stealing :P
20090624 22:12:51< Aethaeryn> of course it isn't
20090624 22:12:58< Aethaeryn> most good ideas aren't original
20090624 22:13:04< Rrenys> yes, they are
20090624 22:13:12< Aethaeryn> anyway, I believe any new OS would probably fail miserably, but if someone were to take Linux as the core, they could make a good product
20090624 22:13:48< Aethaeryn> and making profit off of hardware and not the OS itself won't piss off the Linux base (so vital for free programmers/testers), because you're not charging for the distro and the distro would be freely available
20090624 22:14:12< Aethaeryn> the one problem is that, especially as an entry company, the computers would be more expensive than equivilently-powerful computers in, say, Dell...
20090624 22:14:18< Aethaeryn> even with a $0 OS
20090624 22:14:30< Aethaeryn> you'd need millions in marketing to convince people (other than Linux geeks) to buy it
20090624 22:14:58-!- patchpatch is now known as Shadow_Master
20090624 22:15:14< Aethaeryn> I'd kindly request that anyone who steals this idea though, if they steal it from me, hire me out of college and pay for me to go through an MBA program :P
20090624 22:15:57< Turuk> # of logged messages: 101
20090624 22:16:08< Turuk> # of them worth reading: 6
20090624 22:16:19< Aethaeryn> but yeah, no problem with making money on support if you package it *with* the hardware... look at how much money is made off of optional paid-warranties that most people don't use, "just in case"
20090624 22:17:36< Aethaeryn> wow, we got way off topic from talking about SVN :P
20090624 22:17:41< Aethaeryn> sorry about that
20090624 22:25:03< mordante> I'm off night
20090624 22:25:14-!- mordante [n=mordante@wesnoth/developer/mordante] has quit ["Leaving"]
20090624 22:28:19< Soliton> YogiHH: hi, still need an answer?
20090624 22:30:05< YogiHH> Soliton: yes, please
20090624 22:30:06< Shadow_Master> Turuk: this is a useless message.
20090624 22:30:08< Soliton> YogiHH: in a filter x,y=recall,recall means we match against the recall list. earlier x,y= was also matched against it but i disabled that recently since usually that is not wanted. (accidentally empty $variable)
20090624 22:30:38< Soliton> i assume that's what you're talking about anyway.
20090624 22:31:08< YogiHH> ah, ok. And that filter can be used anywhere in the scenario WML i assume?
20090624 22:31:27< YogiHH> i mean anywhere in the event stuff
20090624 22:31:34< Soliton> in many places, i believe, yeah.
20090624 22:32:01< Soliton> anywhere SUFs are supported or something.. i'm no WML expert. ;-)
20090624 22:32:32< YogiHH> SUF: I found that in a code comment, what does that stand for?
20090624 22:32:45< Soliton> standard unit filter
20090624 22:33:06< YogiHH> aaah. Thanks a lot :-)
20090624 22:33:29< Soliton> no problem.
20090624 22:36:08 * YogiHH today thought about a new unit_filter class in order to remove some dependencies from unit.cpp. After chasing method calls to unit::matches_filter throughout the whole application for an hour, he decided to put it away again :/ .
20090624 22:36:15-!- Espreon [n=espreon@wesnoth/developer/espreon] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20090624 22:50:20-!- Shadow_Master is now known as shadowmaster
20090624 23:09:42-!- Crab_ [i=crab@wesnoth/developer/crab] has quit ["Leaving."]
20090624 23:20:36< YogiHH> good night
20090624 23:20:56-!- YogiHH [n=chatzill@d020007.adsl.hansenet.de] has left #wesnoth-dev []
20090624 23:20:57< shadowmaster> night YogiHH 
20090624 23:21:33-!- boucman [n=rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090624 23:32:17< grzywacz> hi boucman 
20090624 23:32:23< boucman> hey grzywacz
20090624 23:32:25< boucman> what's up
20090624 23:32:55< grzywacz> boucman, well, saying hi. :) don't forget about the ghost issue ;-)
20090624 23:33:08< boucman> i'll try to look at it this we
20090624 23:35:09-!- busfahrer [n=busfahre@unixboard/user/busfahrer] has quit ["leaving"]
20090624 23:38:49< shadowmaster> wesbot: seen elias
20090624 23:38:50< wesbot> shadowmaster: Person, who 22d 6h ago used nick elias, last spoke 22d 5h ago.  10d 8h ago as allefant was here and on the channels #wesnoth and #wesnoth-de with the message: Client Quit
20090624 23:38:54< shadowmaster> wow.
20090624 23:48:45< isaac> boucman: weird
20090624 23:48:51< isaac> boucman: facebook just suggested you as a friend
20090624 23:49:01< isaac> not exactly how it made the connection ...
20090624 23:49:10< boucman> weird...
20090624 23:49:29< boucman> probably wesnoth, though I never really mentionned it (except for posting a link to the 1.6 release)
20090624 23:54:22< boucman> night all
20090624 23:54:27-!- boucman [n=rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has quit ["Leaving."]
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20090624 23:56:55-!- stikonas [n=and@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"]
--- Log closed Thu Jun 25 00:00:23 2009