--- Log opened Mon Jul 13 00:00:13 2009
--- Day changed Mon Jul 13 2009
20090713 00:00:13< kitty_> yes
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20090713 00:01:42< Sapient> hi Ivanovic
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20090713 00:02:44< esr> One is derived from the other by adding a stroke.  This alphabet looks like it's derived from an abugida,. a semi-syllabic writing system - it's likely that stroke would actually represent something like voicing or aspiration.  So they don't make a reasonable t/h pair, but t/d (unvoiced/voiced) would be reasonable.
20090713 00:03:30< esr> I like your basic stroke forms a lot.
20090713 00:03:52< kitty_> oh, that's complicated, thus i'd maake my "h" a "d". right?
20090713 00:03:59< esr> The assembly into letterforms could use some tuning.
20090713 00:04:06< esr> Right.
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20090713 00:05:29< esr> Similarly, you previous three-horizontal-stroke h looks like it should be related to the three-stroke-with-comma in the third row.
20090713 00:06:03< kitty_> right, I'll look into those a bit more
20090713 00:06:21< esr> If I had to guess, I'd think that comma was something like a vowel point, or a palatlizattion marker.  And it probably should be.
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20090713 00:06:28< esr> Am I making sense?
20090713 00:06:45< kitty_> what is palatlizattion? 
20090713 00:06:54< kitty_> apart from that, yes
20090713 00:07:05< kitty_> about the assembled strokes you dislike - could you be more specific again?
20090713 00:07:15< esr> Thing of it, in this context, as a following y sound.
20090713 00:07:53< esr> Two things:  Glyphs that look alike should tend to be phonetically similar.
20090713 00:08:01< kitty_> but the comma is also the word divider, i don't like is as just a specific sound changing thingie
20090713 00:08:06< esr> Right.
20090713 00:09:22< esr> Also. you have a lot of glyphs that are composed of disconnected strokes.  Historically, signs like that are unstable and tent to collapse into simply-connected iones, especially in alphabetic systems.
20090713 00:10:49< kitty_> yes, that'S the ugaritic influence, we wanted to keep that in to tie it to the magic runes lordbob introduced for the loys. if i loose that it becomes something completely different. i think.
20090713 00:11:04< esr> Notixe rthat the Latin alphabet has only one fully disconnected letter - small i.  This is pretty typical; worldwaide, where disconnected glyphic bits are normally found is as vowel points.
20090713 00:11:19< testing_xyz> hi
20090713 00:11:32 * esr looks up Ugaritic
20090713 00:11:39< kitty_> actually i don't like the disconnected ones that much myself, especially the tripple stroke ones. 
20090713 00:11:54< testing_xyz> i wanna talk about the ambushed thing 
20090713 00:12:17< esr> kitty_: Those would be first on my list to go.  They don't really unifly wel with the simpler single-stroke letters.
20090713 00:12:19< grzywacz> esr, signs may tend to collapse into simpler forms, but at a particular moment of history (such as a snapshot of the Wesnoth kingdom) they might exist
20090713 00:13:07< kitty_> I'm all for loosing them (the current h, w, k, i)
20090713 00:13:15< esr> True, but it will look like a more realistic alphabet if such signs are rare.
20090713 00:13:48< kitty_> I'll search for a method to connect them, but keep them visually differentiated
20090713 00:14:23< kitty_> esr: if you want and have the time i could simply post a bigger assembly of letter forms in that style tomorrow and you could sort the phonetics to them
20090713 00:14:28< esr> kitty_: Some I particularly like: a b h t s-hacek m d z 
20090713 00:14:35< esr> Good idea.
20090713 00:14:55< esr> I have the time and this sort of thing is right up my alley.
20090713 00:15:10< kitty_> :) tomorrow it will be then
20090713 00:15:21< esr> (I happen to know a lot about linguistics and ortography, for an amateur.)
20090713 00:15:34< kitty_> it surely sounds that way
20090713 00:16:10< esr> Blame it on Tolkien.  His Elvish and Dwarvish writing systyems got me interested.
20090713 00:19:22 * grzywacz was about to have an inscription in quenya on his wedding ring ;-)
20090713 00:28:06< Ivanovic> time for me to head off to bed, n8
20090713 00:31:55< CIA-53> ai0867 * r36864 /trunk/data/campaigns/Heir_To_The_Throne/scenarios/19b_Swamp_Of_Dread.cfg: s/and and/and/
20090713 00:34:39< CIA-53> ai0867 * r36865 /trunk/data/core/units/ (drakes/Sky.cfg orcs/Archer.cfg): more s/and and/and/
20090713 00:50:36< CIA-53> cjhopman * r36866 /trunk/src/shared_object.hpp: use a hash_map::iterator instead of a node*
20090713 00:52:36< cjhopman> mordante: I did not mean to require boost 1.35, in fact, I used boost::multi_index_container rather than just boost::unordered_map (which is just based on multiindex) because unordered_map was not in 1.33
20090713 00:53:02< cjhopman> loonycyborg: I actually used the pointer rather than the iterator because the iterator actually uses 2 pointers
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20090713 00:53:30< loonycyborg> Why didn't you store reference counts in a mysql database? :P
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20090713 00:57:21< kitty_> esr: a set of glyphs in that style, i got rid of the totally unconnected ones and made a couple of new ones. I'm curious what you'll come up with! http://imagebin.ca/img/tW2TtU.gif
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20090713 01:06:48< loonycyborg> cjhopman: So basically for each T there's a muli_index container that contains all values/objects managed by shared_object and theire reference counts.
20090713 01:10:01< cjhopman> loonycyborg: yes, the multi_index_container has just one index, it's basically a hash_map
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20090713 01:37:27< YogiHH> night everyone
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20090713 04:17:03< esr> The Wesnothian New Writing: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m78ae8bfe
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20090713 04:28:44< Sirp> esr: wow, nice. :)
20090713 04:29:11< esr> Kitty gets all credit for the glyphs, but the phonetic design is me.
20090713 04:30:23< esr> I *love* doing stuff like this and I'm good at it.  Blame Tolkien; he got me interested.
20090713 04:39:23< Blueblaze> esr: dipthongized -> diphthongized
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20090713 04:40:36< Blueblaze> Looks quite interesting though 
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20090713 04:52:12< Blarumyrran> "latin distinction between c and k" i dont think latin has k?`
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20090713 05:40:58< Blueblaze> Blarumyrran: It does
20090713 05:41:27< Blueblaze> It doesn't have a U or J
20090713 05:42:01< Blueblaze> Classical latin anyway
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20090713 05:51:37< Blarumyrran> name me some latin words with k
20090713 05:55:14< Blarumyrran> :)
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20090713 06:11:33< Blueblaze> kainotophobia
20090713 06:12:01 * Blueblaze wonders if he'll notice
20090713 06:12:03< Blarumyrran> are you sure that is not greek
20090713 06:12:10< Blarumyrran> if that even exists
20090713 06:12:23< Blueblaze> its greek :)
20090713 06:12:36< Blueblaze> Blarumyrran: Kalendae?
20090713 06:13:21< Blueblaze> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_spelling_and_pronunciation
20090713 06:14:27 * Blarumyrran is defeated
20090713 06:14:56< Blarumyrran> Its a pity they dont teach latin in schools like ive heard they do in us - its so cool language
20090713 06:20:47< Blueblaze> You heard wrong
20090713 06:21:14< Blarumyrran> k
20090713 06:44:11< esr> The Romans had K, all right.  They used it mainly for importing Greek words, and for a very few arcahaic Latin words lie "Kalendae".
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20090713 09:25:07< CIA-53> ivanovic * r36867 /trunk/po/ (4 files in 4 dirs): updated Italian translation
20090713 09:25:13< CIA-53> ivanovic * r36868 /branches/1.6/po/ (4 files in 4 dirs): updated Italian translation
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20090713 09:37:58< kitty_> hey esr, next round of the script is here: http://imagebin.ca/img/o-qC-lgr.gif
20090713 09:38:12< kitty_> most of your phonetic choices work pretty well together! the ones i'm not fond of: the one you chose for "y" looks too similar to the latin y. the "f" doesn't fit the rest. and did you use the same glyph for "o" and "g" on purpose? same for "u" and lengthening-sign.
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20090713 09:53:22< Ivanovic> corn: you still lack the mid term eval form
20090713 09:53:40< Ivanovic> corn: unless you fill it (very soon, only 11h left!!!) you won't get your money
20090713 10:02:04< esr> kitty: there are some errors in my table, partrtly because your glyph numbers were a bit hard to read on my screen.  I didn't intend for the glph you have as /f/ tio be used at all.
20090713 10:02:12< esr> I will correct.
20090713 10:07:11< Ivanovic> off to uni, cu
20090713 10:19:04< esr> kitty: Second version of New Writing: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m56700679
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20090713 14:09:00< kitty_> hey! more work on the script: http://imagebin.ca/img/E2aolK.png
20090713 14:09:29< kitty_> and also a start for a cursive/handwriting variant: http://imagebin.ca/img/qakVjb.gif
20090713 14:09:39< kitty_> esr ^
20090713 14:10:36< esr> kitty: Hold on...
20090713 14:11:49< esr> Wow.  Those look really good!
20090713 14:12:01< kitty_> :)
20090713 14:13:46< esr> You should add one more symbol: the inverted word divider, which is a half-pause like a comma or semicolon.
20090713 14:14:10< kitty_> ok, will add
20090713 14:14:21< kitty_> what about a questionmark? 
20090713 14:14:30< esr> Now we need to tnk about how we present this.
20090713 14:14:43< kitty_> a wiki page
20090713 14:14:49< esr> I'll add aili page describing New Writing.
20090713 14:15:50< kitty_> i won't be able to produce a real font from that any time soon, unfortunately. my fontlab keeps crashing. whoever wants to use this will need to draw the letters themselves
20090713 14:15:54< esr> For this, I'll need the glyph page cut up into one-per-glyph images - both so I can embet them that way and so thers can composit them for texts.
20090713 14:16:36< kitty_> for the monumental glyphs only or for both variants?
20090713 14:16:43< esr> Until you get a font version working they'll just have to paste togetjer image tiles.
20090713 14:17:15< esr> Hmmm...I don't see how we can do the cursive version right with just block tiles.
20090713 14:17:41< esr> So perhaps best to hold off on that until it can be a real fond.
20090713 14:17:49< esr> s/fond/font/
20090713 14:19:01< kitty_> then it will be only a info page about the cursive script. even if  i get a font done for the other version a working handwriting font is really, really complicated to do and would require tons of stylistic alternates for every possible letter combination.... :(
20090713 14:19:23< esr> OK. I think the need for the cursives is not urgent.
20090713 14:19:56< esr> The monumentals solve the immediate problem, which is what to put onn signposts.
20090713 14:20:04< kitty_> yeah, adding a few inscriptions to monuments and signposts will occur much more often
20090713 14:20:33< esr> BTW, I *really* like your "joined" version of the monumentals.  Very graceful.
20090713 14:20:47< kitty_> i was thinking of lordbob who works on storyart for utbs which features an open book, but that doesn' matter since that will need to be in elvish anyways
20090713 14:21:48 * esr tosses kitty a rose
20090713 14:22:04< esr> This has been a very successful collaboration, I think.
20090713 14:22:50< kitty_> and quicker than i had hoped for :)
20090713 14:24:52< esr> BTW, bit of history I invented: the casual Wesnothian term fory your monumentals is "steel-hand", distinguishing it from the old writing which is called "brush-hand".  The new writing was promulgated in YW 51 by the reigning King with the cooperation of the mages of the recently founded Academy on Alduin.
20090713 14:25:09< kitty_> nice!
20090713 14:25:21< kitty_> do all the single cut out glyphs need to be the same format? or can i use different ones to improve the spacing?
20090713 14:25:38< esr> Oh, you mean box size?
20090713 14:26:29< esr> It's be a pain if they're different heights, but variable width should be no problem.
20090713 14:27:19< kitty_> ok same height, different width. and transparent png's, i suppose?
20090713 14:28:37< esr> That sounds great.
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20090713 14:29:57< esr> Feel free to play with the glyph widths if you think it woiill make the appearance more harmonious. I think some of the letters based on horizontal strokes may be a bit too wide right now for a real black-letter effect.
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20090713 14:44:38< kitty_> arg, that won't work. as long as it is not only easily possible to space but also to kern the letters it will look like *#!** -  rather not at all than this way. damn. we'll only be able to present the glyphs and whoever wants to use them will need to draw them himself (which isn't really difficult) or need to contact me so that i could do it (which shouldn't be a problem either). hmm.
20090713 14:46:12< kitty_> just look at the t-l or n-o in my example and imagine what they would look like without any kerning - shudder.
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20090713 15:21:31< CIA-53> thespaceinvader * r36869 /trunk/data/core/images/portraits/drakes/clasher.png: Minor update to Clasher profile image.
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20090713 16:29:44< melinath> kitty: question about the script
20090713 16:29:55< melinath> (or esr(
20090713 16:30:36< melinath> Did I understand correctly: brushhand=pre-YW51, steelhand=postYW51?
20090713 16:31:13< melinath> Or are they concurrent, one for cursive and one for monuments?
20090713 16:32:18< kitty_> hi melinath 
20090713 16:33:12< kitty_> esr is the right one to ask this, but as far as i understood, they are concurrent, with 51 as the first occurence for steel_hand
20090713 16:33:50< CIA-53> ilor * r36870 /trunk/src/gui/dialogs/lobby_main.cpp: fix new lobby issue with clicking join ro observe with no games in gamelist
20090713 16:34:16< CIA-53> ilor * r36871 /trunk/src/gui/widgets/generator.cpp: fix gui2 listbox row removal crash
20090713 16:34:44< CIA-53> ilor * r36872 /trunk/src/gui/dialogs/lobby_main.cpp: make newlobby window closing more robust by forcing (possibly redundant) row and page selection in related listbox and multi_page
20090713 16:35:19< CIA-53> ilor * r36873 /trunk/data/gui/default/window/lobby_main.cfg: move the chat log multi_page to a define on top to reduce wml clutter
20090713 16:35:39< CIA-53> ilor * r36874 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): fix some game join/observe issues in newlobby
20090713 16:36:00< CIA-53> ilor * r36875 /trunk/data/gui/default/window/lobby_main.cfg: try to make the in-listbox buttons aligned
20090713 16:36:21< CIA-53> ilor * r36876 /trunk/src/gui/dialogs/ (lobby_main.cpp lobby_main.hpp): newlobby: show how many games out of how many are displayed with current filter
20090713 16:36:51< melinath> kitty: okay... I'll read over the irc logs.
20090713 16:37:04< melinath> oh, and nice job!
20090713 16:37:10< melinath> (again)
20090713 16:40:15< kitty_> thanks! i felt a bit bad for taking it out of you hands... i originally just wanted to contribute some letterforms, but then i got carried away and esr was online and...
20090713 16:40:46< melinath> eh, w/e
20090713 16:41:10< kitty_> but i think your archaic forms could come in use for wesfolk related stuff if you adapted them a bit to our new alphabet, perhaps esr could help you to develop an older form out of it
20090713 16:41:35< melinath> I'm satisfied with having this all be my fault ;-)
20090713 16:41:47< melinath> I'd like to try an archaic version.
20090713 16:42:03< melinath> As long as I don't have to do blackletter, should work out all right...
20090713 16:42:24< kitty_> that's easy, just use a slanted brush...
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20090713 16:43:32< melinath> ah, but that's assuming I have a brush.
20090713 16:44:14< kitty_> a digital brush... photoshop has a whole predefined calligraphic set, i used one of those
20090713 16:44:23< melinath> you have a tablet?
20090713 16:44:55< melinath> or I should say:
20090713 16:45:01< melinath> I don't have a tablet
20090713 16:45:14< melinath> and my mouse hand isn't steady enough...
20090713 16:45:23< melinath> But I could maybe give it a try.
20090713 16:46:18< kitty_> i couldn't do without my trusty tablet ;)
20090713 16:48:16< melinath> Understandable.
20090713 16:57:03< melinath> kitty: at some point, I'd like to make signposts/signs for the time period that the new script is for. Is there any chance you'd be willing to help supply text?
20090713 16:57:29< kitty_> of course - just tell me what you need!
20090713 16:58:15< melinath> I'll need to talk with esr probably. The problem is that ideally, every signpost would be unique
20090713 16:58:30< melinath> and would have a real name of the place its pointing to
20090713 16:58:49< melinath> this===not practical
20090713 16:59:02< kitty_> yep, do you have an idea how many that would be fpr the mainline campaigns?
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20090713 16:59:39< kitty_> and if you have a nice signpost just adding in the script is actually not much work, I'd estimate 10min perhaps
20090713 16:59:48< melinath> so it needs to be something generic. But should it be a generic name (which noone would understand anyway)
20090713 16:59:58< melinath> or just random letters?
20090713 17:00:05< kitty_> mordor!
20090713 17:00:07< melinath> Yeah, script is easy
20090713 17:00:16< melinath> adding it, that is
20090713 17:00:45< melinath> hmm... copyrighted material... o_O
20090713 17:01:03< kitty_> :P rather rome, all roads lead to rome, don't they?
20090713 17:01:46< melinath> lol
20090713 17:02:00< melinath> indeed
20090713 17:02:26< melinath> Right now, the signposts generally have messages like:
20090713 17:02:51< melinath> SE - The River Road.
20090713 17:03:29< kitty_> just elensefar or wesmere or blackwater port should be fine - nobody will seriously translate them anyways
20090713 17:03:57< melinath> But I suspect the Wesnothian probably wouldn't say SE since it's obvious from the way the sign would be pointing
20090713 17:04:17< melinath> and those are a bit longer, too.
20090713 17:04:25< melinath> Looks better if the whole thing's filled.
20090713 17:06:56< melinath> so let's say elensefar and wesmere for now?
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20090713 17:15:37< melinath> set novice off
20090713 17:15:44< melinath> cough
20090713 17:15:54< melinath> *shame
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20090713 17:18:03< AI0867> melinath: how about "that way" ?
20090713 17:19:01< melinath> heh. nice.
20090713 17:19:47< melinath> It has a kind of "what is that called?" (unintelligible foreign speech meaning "It's a mountain, you idiot") ring to it.
20090713 17:21:51< melinath> If Kitty's willing to write it, I'm willing to put it on a sign.
20090713 17:22:50< kitty_> write "that way" in steel hand? no prob. just bring the signpost up to par and i'll willingly contribute the lettering :P
20090713 17:23:52< melinath> aye aye
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20090713 17:35:38< kitty_> Does anybody know if the wolves the goblins ride are normal sized wolves or are they bigger or special in any other way?
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20090713 17:39:16< elias> they are wargs, not wolves
20090713 17:39:24< elias> (i have no idea really)
20090713 17:40:43< kitty_> then I'll assume that they are your typical fantasy big, bad wolfies
20090713 17:41:10< AI0867> er, they're referred to as wolves
20090713 17:41:27< AI0867> wargs are from EoM
20090713 17:41:51< AI0867> No one is quite sure how the practice of taming and riding wolves came into being, but the advantages of it for a goblin are obvious. Goblins are smaller and much weaker than their orcish kin, and are often tasked to the most dangerous and unwanted parts of a fight. Any who can manage to win themselves a mount have a much safer, and daresay, more amusing role in combat.
20090713 17:41:56< AI0867> Wolves, likely, could never support the weight of a man in plate, but a goblin in leather armor is a simple load to bear. Quite unlike horses, these mounts have a rather easy time traversing the mountains, though water and woods will still slow them down.
20090713 17:42:28< kitty_> yes i know and thanks - i just wanted to know if they are kind of a special breed or something like that - but if nobody has defined that up to now that's fine with me
20090713 17:43:09< AI0867> well, that text puts some bounds on their size
20090713 17:43:16< AI0867> but that's about all of it
20090713 17:43:50< kitty_> yeah -  thanks again!
20090713 17:46:00< AI0867> and as a final thing, dire wolves are obviously bigger than the rest
20090713 17:46:57< kitty_> yep, but i'm just starting the normal L1 rider, and will worry about the direwolf later
20090713 17:52:05< CIA-53> ilor * r36877 /trunk/ (6 files in 3 dirs): more icons in gui2 lobby gamelist (replacement icons from someone who actually can draw would be welcome)
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20090713 17:56:23< Blarumyrran> that would not actually qualify for copyrighted material
20090713 17:56:41< Blarumyrran> aggh nvm, didnt see i should scroll down.
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20090713 18:09:14-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.7.2 planned for next Sunday (July 19th) | 63 bugs, 241 feature requests, 13 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20090713 18:28:09< mordante> servus
20090713 18:29:29< mordante> cjhopman, ok, then it seems just bad luck that it works with boost 1.35
20090713 18:30:13< mordante> kitty_, esr I really like the work on the scripts :-)
20090713 18:31:15< mordante> ilor_,  around?
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--- Log opened Mon Jul 13 19:06:03 2009
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20090713 19:06:11-!- Topic for #wesnoth-dev: 1.7.2 planned for next Sunday (July 19th) | 63 bugs, 241 feature requests, 13 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20090713 19:06:11-!- Topic set by wesbot [] [Mon Jul 13 18:09:14 2009]
20090713 19:06:11[Users #wesnoth-dev]
20090713 19:06:11[ ABCD           ] [ giusef     ] [ Polarina       ] 
20090713 19:06:11[ AI0867         ] [ grzywacz   ] [ Rhonda         ] 
20090713 19:06:11[ Amu            ] [ ilor_      ] [ shadowmaster   ] 
20090713 19:06:11[ AnMaster       ] [ isaac      ] [ shikadibot     ] 
20090713 19:06:11[ CIA-53         ] [ Ivanovic   ] [ Sirp           ] 
20090713 19:06:11[ cjhopman       ] [ Kenpachi   ] [ Smar           ] 
20090713 19:06:11[ corn           ] [ lobby      ] [ Soliton        ] 
20090713 19:06:11[ crimson_penguin] [ loonybot   ] [ Soliton_       ] 
20090713 19:06:11[ dfranke        ] [ loonycyborg] [ stikonas       ] 
20090713 19:06:11[ Doppp          ] [ maxy       ] [ testing_xyz    ] 
20090713 19:06:11[ Dragonking     ] [ melinath   ] [ thespaceinvader] 
20090713 19:06:11[ elias          ] [ Mellar     ] [ Tigge          ] 
20090713 19:06:11[ Elvish_Pillage2] [ MJ999      ] [ wesbot         ] 
20090713 19:06:11[ erl            ] [ mjs-de     ] [ zookeeper      ] 
20090713 19:06:11[ esr            ] [ mordante   ] 
20090713 19:06:11[ ettin          ] [ noy        ] 
20090713 19:06:11-!- Irssi: #wesnoth-dev: Total of 46 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 46 normal]
20090713 19:06:14< ilor_> mordante: define "messy"
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20090713 19:06:32-!- Channel #wesnoth-dev created Tue Jan 27 06:28:41 2009
20090713 19:06:45< mordante> deeply nested where it's hard to see what belongs where
20090713 19:06:54 * mordante continues typing ;-)
20090713 19:07:37< ilor_> mordante: it's difficult to avoid the nesting 
20090713 19:07:38-!- Irssi: Join to #wesnoth-dev was synced in 94 secs
20090713 19:07:53< mordante> so can you generate a html file with a table without nesting and write underneath it how the fields should be aligned and react to growing
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20090713 19:08:20< mordante> ilor_, I know, but every problem can be solved by another level of indirection ;-)
20090713 19:08:47< mordante> maybe I want more details about the sub fields later on
20090713 19:09:07< mordante> then I'll start to work on the dialog and start to use more macros
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20090713 19:09:41< ilor_> mordante: I can make you a drawing of what I want, a more grid-based version of the concept sketch
20090713 19:10:08< mordante> yes please, then I can make more macros for sections
20090713 19:10:44< mordante> that should make the code cleaner and easier to understand
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20090713 19:10:53< mordante> and also make maintenance easier
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20090713 19:14:49< CIA-53> cjhopman * r36878 /trunk/src/shared_object.hpp: back to const node*, with node::count mutable
20090713 19:20:40< ilor_> cjhopman: you around? any ideas why msvc barfs on the skiplist headers?
20090713 19:21:21< ilor_> mordante: http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/1184/lobbya.png
20090713 19:23:30< mordante> ilor_, thanks really clear, since a nick can only have 18 chars it's maximum width can be determined
20090713 19:24:03< mordante> at the moment it just grows when needed
20090713 19:25:03< ilor_> mordante: remeber that later I plan to add icons or sth to the user list, but I guess that won't change much
20090713 19:25:11< Ivanovic> ilor_, mordante: got a complaint today about some place in the mp create/wait for start area where there is not enough room at least for one translation
20090713 19:25:19< Ivanovic> asked the translator to fill it as bugreport
20090713 19:26:07< ilor_> Ivanovic: mp_create/wait is old gui
20090713 19:26:07< mordante> ilor_, I assume you also know the width of that icon ;-)
20090713 19:26:37< mordante> I know more places where things won't fit with old gui ;-)
20090713 19:26:39< Ivanovic> ilor_: yes, i know
20090713 19:26:55< mordante> (and also some where the new gui still fails ;-) )
20090713 19:26:56< Ivanovic> ilor_: but since it is a generic bug report it is just something that should be tackled once the new gui is ready
20090713 19:27:14< ilor_> mordante: tbh for some places I could use a widget-wrapping gui2 container, I wrote about it in the log some time ago
20090713 19:27:35< cjhopman> ilor_: I have no idea. just that one error about finding '<' when expecting '>' ?
20090713 19:27:58< mordante> Ivanovic, I expect to be all those problems be magically be fixed with gui2 once I have my fallback engine in place
20090713 19:28:01< ilor_> cjhopman: there were a few more but stemming from that one I guess
20090713 19:28:25< ilor_> cjhopman: it died without instanting the template (i.e. early)
20090713 19:28:58< mordante> ilor_, can you refresh my memory?
20090713 19:29:31< ilor_> mordante: a container of widgets that will put them in one wide row if there is enough horizontal space
20090713 19:29:49< ilor_> mordante: but if there is not enough, will wrap some widgets to a second row etc
20090713 19:30:11< ilor_> sort of like text wrapping but with entire widgets in place of words ;)
20090713 19:32:18< mordante> ilor_, should be possible, what's your usage case?
20090713 19:34:04< ilor_> mordante: filters, there will be some more checkboxes and stuff eventually, and I'll have to manually split them into rows, but it might look very different in a language where "Invert filter" must be translated into a 4 word long phrase
20090713 19:34:10< cjhopman> ilor_: I'll look at it some more... there wasn't anything that I saw when I looked yesterday
20090713 19:34:49< cjhopman> ilor_: what visual studio was that with?
20090713 19:34:56< ilor_> mordante: this is not a high priority FR, I can definitely do it manually for the time being
20090713 19:35:12< ilor_> cjhopman: 2k8 sp1
20090713 19:35:57< mordante> ilor_, I see and also how it will look better
20090713 19:36:55< ilor_> mordante: it could look a lot better on wide screens where it would be just one long row of options, but still work nicely in 800x600 where it's be two rows for instance
20090713 19:37:37< mordante> yeah I understand, I'll add it to my todo list so it won't be forgotten
20090713 19:37:46< ilor_> mordante: BTW, how do I make a gui2 textbox smaller? :P
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20090713 19:45:40< mordante> ilor_, it has a default width of 250 pixels, maybe we should reduce that and see what breaks
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20090713 19:45:59< ilor_> mordante: I'll need more than one size anyway ;)
20090713 19:46:15< ilor_> mordante: a small one for the filter text and a extendable one for chat input
20090713 19:47:10< mordante> true, but we can make the default small and use the GUI_FORCE_WIDGET_MINIMUM_SIZE to create larger ones
20090713 19:47:25< mordante> (that is if that widget needs to set the width of that container)
20090713 19:47:32< ilor_> mordante: but what about the larger one that should expand automatically?
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20090713 19:48:00< mordante> that should also work with GUI_FORCE_WIDGET_MINIMUM_SIZE
20090713 19:48:22< mordante> (actually I rather like that macro)
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20090713 20:14:22< Ivanovic> AI0867: the dutch translation update is based on 1.6, right?
20090713 20:14:45< CIA-53> mordante * r36879 /trunk/ (6 files in 6 dirs): Fix some text domains and POTFILES.in issues.
20090713 20:15:00< mordante> Ivanovic, ^ 
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20090713 20:16:02< mordante> Ivanovic, these issues are found by the new cmake script, do you also want a target to do this before you run a pot-update?
20090713 20:16:45< Ivanovic> i will run a pot-update right now
20090713 20:16:51< Ivanovic> explain me the new stuff later on
20090713 20:17:48< CIA-53> ivanovic * r36880 /trunk/ (7 files in 5 dirs): updated Dutch and Russian translation
20090713 20:17:52< CIA-53> ivanovic * r36881 /branches/1.6/ (7 files in 5 dirs): updated Dutch and Russian translation
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20090713 20:18:42< Ivanovic> afk for about half an hour
20090713 20:18:54< mordante> ok, just ping me when you're back
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20090713 20:28:25< AI0867> Ivanovic: yes
20090713 20:28:45< AI0867> or I think so
20090713 20:31:58< grzywacz> Hm. Should pango markup be disabled in MP labels?
20090713 20:32:17< grzywacz> Or old wesnoth markup in case of 1.6?
20090713 20:33:03< grzywacz> Labels like "*********************?" are silly. ;-)
20090713 20:33:49< AI0867> just checked, yes
20090713 20:35:01< mordante> grzywacz, might be wise
20090713 20:35:04< Soliton> "?" is silly, too. :-P
20090713 20:35:21< mordante> asgasdgas gasg ewr rgarag also :-P
20090713 20:35:32< zookeeper> not to mention "LOL NOOBS"
20090713 20:35:32< Soliton> see and we allow that!
20090713 20:35:50< Soliton> what needs to be disabled is color changing though.
20090713 20:36:08< Soliton> so you can't fake other's labels.
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20090713 20:53:07< Ivanovic> re
20090713 20:54:38< Sirp> hi Ivanovic 
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20090713 21:05:11< mordante> Ivanovic, regarding the pot updates, the cmake version first updates the POTFILES.in for the sources depending on the #textdomain fields
20090713 21:05:48< mordante> but this is not a target you can call, but since you often update POTFILES.in before the pot-update I was wondering whether you want a target for it
20090713 21:06:01< Ivanovic> no need for a target
20090713 21:06:23< YogiHH> hrm, what's the easiest way to get a character from SDLKey?
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20090713 21:08:07< mordante> YogiHH, a character or a special key?
20090713 21:08:09< mordante> ok Ivanovic 
20090713 21:08:23< Ivanovic> mordante: just tell me in plain and simple steps from a fresh svn checkout what i got to do to run the common translation related commands
20090713 21:08:25< Ivanovic> that is:
20090713 21:08:42< Ivanovic> 1) update all po files for a chosen lang against the .pot files of the respective textdomain
20090713 21:08:43< YogiHH> mordante: no, a char or even better std::string
20090713 21:08:52< EdB> getting the sym field
20090713 21:09:09< Ivanovic> 2) update the pot files (nothing po4a related) and all po files
20090713 21:09:09< mordante> YogiHH, use the unicode value, which contains the unicode character entered
20090713 21:09:25< YogiHH> mordante: that's an int?
20090713 21:09:36< Ivanovic> 3) update the po(t) files for all the po4a related stuff (manual and manpages) and generate the resulting files
20090713 21:09:53< YogiHH> ah, yes, i see
20090713 21:10:59< EdB> YogiHH: if you enable unicode : event.key.keysym.unicode
20090713 21:11:51< mordante> EdB, YogiHH ineed and that's send as unicode in the widget event handling 
20090713 21:11:56< mordante> indeed*
20090713 21:12:17< YogiHH> ilor_: any specific reason you fire the key_press event before the control handling takes place? It makes me build the resulting string manually, which is a little tedious for the filter.
20090713 21:12:27< YogiHH> mordante, EdB: thanks
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20090713 21:13:26< mordante> Ivanovic, 1) mo-update2-${LANG} and po-update2-${LANG} do that
20090713 21:13:33< EdB> my pleasure :)
20090713 21:13:47< ilor_> YogiHH: uh, so you can abort the control handling
20090713 21:14:13< mordante> Ivanovic, 2) pot-update2 which also updates the POTFILES.in 
20090713 21:14:29< YogiHH> ilor_: Mhm, i see. Do you need that for the lobby dialog?
20090713 21:14:30< mordante> Ivanovic, 3) hasn't been done yet
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20090713 21:14:49< ilor_> YogiHH: tbh not sure haven't thought about it
20090713 21:14:55< mordante> the 2 in the name will be dropped once all works properly and is tested
20090713 21:15:00< YogiHH> ok
20090713 21:15:03< CIA-53> ivanovic * r36882 /trunk/po/ (245 files in 5 dirs): pot-update
20090713 21:15:13< Ivanovic> mordante: what are the preparing steps (as in call of cmake itself)
20090713 21:15:15< ilor_> YogiHH: I definitely would prefer to get teh input text when enter is pressed without the wnter char at the end
20090713 21:15:31< mordante> the pot-update2 is not really tested yet, but at least I get less diffs now :-)
20090713 21:15:31< ilor_> YogiHH: you can add a post_key_press callback ;)
20090713 21:15:33< Ivanovic> yeah, i would like to see a *complte* list of stuff assuming that i want to work out of tree with cmake
20090713 21:15:58< YogiHH> well, yes, that's a point. Thought about that post_key_press as well :-)
20090713 21:17:01< mordante> make pot-update2 does the pot-update and make  po-update2-${LANG} updates a language against the pot files and make mo-update2-${LANG} generates the mo files for that language
20090713 21:18:36< Ivanovic> mordante: i understand this much
20090713 21:18:59< mordante> then I'm not really sure what you want to know :-/
20090713 21:19:04< Ivanovic> mordante: i would like to see a series of commands including the cmake call since the last stuff had something extra
20090713 21:19:23< Ivanovic> and: do i have to do the cmake call in tree or can i use that stuff out of tree, too?
20090713 21:19:30< Ivanovic> (so that the files in tree are used and updated)
20090713 21:20:05< mordante> you can call it out tree and the files in tree are updated, only the mo-files are stored out tree
20090713 21:20:16< mordante> (which makes sense IMO)
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20090713 21:20:34< Ivanovic> okay, so these commands would update the german translation files and compile them?
20090713 21:20:59< mordante> the thing extra is that you need to enable the translator commands to avoid the users with an insane amount of targets they never use
20090713 21:21:03< Ivanovic> cmake /wesnoth-checkout && make  po-update2-de && make mo-update2-de
20090713 21:23:07< YogiHH> mordante: hrm, i had this idea to make the filtered out listbox entries invisible, but that wasn't the best one it seems :-). Any way to get that working?
20090713 21:23:08< mordante> that should work (as long as you think it's a good idea to store your checkout in /wesnoth-checkout :-P )
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20090713 21:24:06< mordante> YogiHH, get_row_grid(i)->set_visible(twidget::INVISIBLE); should do the trick (not tested)
20090713 21:24:24< silene> hi
20090713 21:24:32< mordante> hi isaac 
20090713 21:24:37< mordante> hi silene *
20090713 21:24:42< Ivanovic> mordante: you just said that i would also need some extra param for the cmake call
20090713 21:24:48< Ivanovic> what *exactly* is that param?
20090713 21:24:51< Sapient> hi silene
20090713 21:24:57< YogiHH> mordante: well, yes, that's basically what i did. Then it throws assertion errors at me when calling get_best_size() :/
20090713 21:25:20< YogiHH> hi silene
20090713 21:26:13< silene> for those interested by c++ evolution: this week there is a committee meeting, and today we voted in favor of the removal of concepts from the next standard
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20090713 21:28:02< mordante> Ivanovic, ah yes of course  cmake -DENABLE_POT_UPDATE_TARGET /wesnoth-checkout && make  po-update2-de && make mo-update2-de
20090713 21:28:39< mordante> YogiHH, congratulations you found another bug ;-)
20090713 21:28:49< Sapient> silene: this makes me frown :(
20090713 21:29:00< YogiHH> mordante: ah, great, i feared this was by design :-D
20090713 21:29:21< silene> Sapient: yes, me too
20090713 21:29:27< loonycyborg> silene: What is the rationale of this decision?
20090713 21:30:12< mordante> YogiHH, it was kind of by design, but I see it's uses
20090713 21:30:44< silene> loonycyborg: currently too complicated, not enough compiler support; and a first vote showed that people thought it would take at least 2 more years (the average was about 3.5 years) to get it into shape
20090713 21:31:26< mordante> into shape in compilers or the definition on paper?
20090713 21:31:50< YogiHH> mordante: so do you want to care about it? Or keep it that way? Or shall i try to find a solution and we discuss? Would be nice to get that working, since i don't have to erase and create the list items again all the time, then.
20090713 21:32:21< silene> mordante: paper
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20090713 21:33:37< silene> so now the objective is to salvage a few things (e.g. foreach) and to consider concepts again in 4 years
20090713 21:34:11< mordante> YogiHH, well it should be fixed, I can have a short look, but my plate is rather full at the moment
20090713 21:34:27< loonycyborg> Yes. I *like* for(:) construct. It would be bad if it was dropped along with concepts :(
20090713 21:34:44 * mordante agrees
20090713 21:34:53< YogiHH> mordante: Whatever fits, if you want, i can try and investigate myself, although it will take considerably more time, probably :-)
20090713 21:35:07< Sapient> lol... dropping for() will not be happening
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20090713 21:35:46< loonycyborg> I was referring to for(initialization : range) construct.
20090713 21:36:05< Sapient> ah, my irc client turned that into a smiley face
20090713 21:36:07< loonycyborg> It's basically BOOST_FOREACH without a macro.
20090713 21:36:40< loonycyborg> Implementation of BOOST_FOREACH as a language feature.
20090713 21:37:56< silene> without concepts, the definition of foreach will be quite ugly; but people seem to think it's better to have it ugly than to not have it at all
20090713 21:38:08< silene> so hopefully it will be there
20090713 21:39:22< mordante> YogiHH, can you test this patch? http://paste.debian.net/41779/
20090713 21:40:28< mordante> are more things that might not get into C++0x?
20090713 21:41:52< silene> no, at least nothing else that had already been included in the draft
20090713 21:42:50< mordante> nice :-)
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20090713 21:44:24< YogiHH> mordante: bingo, that did the trick
20090713 21:44:47< mordante> any idea when C++0x is expected to be ready (wikipeadia already expects end of 2011...)
20090713 21:45:07< mordante> YogiHH, thanks for testing, I'll commit the code later
20090713 21:45:22< YogiHH> mordante: thanks for fixing :-)
20090713 21:45:40< mordante> no problem it was easy
20090713 21:46:07< mordante> compile testing took longer as finding and fixing the code ;-)
20090713 21:48:30< YogiHH> mordante: i think i will go for that post_key_press event, otherwise things like backspace, delete, inserting new characters in the middle of the string etc are hard to handle. Do you think i should add it to the event_executor as well?
20090713 21:48:47< silene> mordante: i would even expect it a bit sooner now that concepts are no longer there
20090713 21:50:25< mordante> silene, very nice to hear, I really look forward to C++0x it has a lot of nice goodies
20090713 21:50:47< mordante> YogiHH, what are you exactly trying to do?
20090713 21:51:55< loonycyborg> silene: How concepts implementations like concept-gcc are faring currently?
20090713 21:52:02< loonycyborg> And how many of them?
20090713 21:52:36< silene> loonycyborg: it's the only one and it hasn't been maintained for quite a long time
20090713 21:53:10< loonycyborg> So none of commercial vendors tried implementing it yet?
20090713 21:53:51< silene> no, and microsoft even stated that they wouldn't try to implement it for vc 2010
20090713 21:54:22< YogiHH> mordante: i need to catch the content of a text box, that is filtering the list items. However, the key press event fires before the textbox value is changed, so i have to add the key to the textbox string to do the filtering. Which is somehow ok, if the key is always added at the end, but i can't rely on that.
20090713 21:54:49< YogiHH> mordante: Therefore i like to provide another event after the textbox content was changed.
20090713 21:55:11< loonycyborg> Maybe the committee should develop its own implementation of C++ :P
20090713 21:55:53< CIA-53> soliton * r36883 /trunk/utils/mp-server/run_server: added some more fatal exit codes
20090713 21:57:16< silene> loonycyborg: in fact, that's how it works, since there isn't many features that are not first implemented (and, as you can guess, concept-gcc was supposed to be the toy implementation of concepts)
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20090713 21:57:30< mordante> YogiHH, in that case it would be better to add an generic on_change callback, since on unix the middle mouse button can also modify the contents
20090713 21:57:57< YogiHH> mordante: ok, sounds reasonable
20090713 21:58:15< mordante> feel free to implement it
20090713 21:59:22< YogiHH> mordante: for the textbox i suppose? Or do you prefer event_executor?
20090713 22:00:53< mordante> YogiHH, no for gui2::ttext
20090713 22:01:23< mordante> that allows all subclasses to use it
20090713 22:01:35< YogiHH> mordante: alright, and now i will stop nagging you so you can do some work of your own ;-)
20090713 22:01:53< mordante> YogiHH, well I'm about to leave ;-)
20090713 22:02:00< YogiHH> :-)
20090713 22:02:06< YogiHH> i'm first ;-)
20090713 22:02:12< YogiHH> night everyone
20090713 22:02:17< Ivanovic> mordante: currently testing the update targets (usecase "1)")
20090713 22:02:18< mordante> night YogiHH 
20090713 22:02:28< Ivanovic> the result is that it a) seems to work nicely
20090713 22:02:35< Ivanovic> and b) that this happens:
20090713 22:02:36< Ivanovic> CMake Error: Target DependInfo.cmake file not found
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20090713 22:03:05< mordante> ilor_, I've some work in progress changes, which I'll commit now and will continue on it tomorrow
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20090713 22:04:08< ilor_> mordante: okay, I'll be unavailable for most of tomorrow afternoon,should be back late evening or tomorrow morning
20090713 22:04:52< mordante> ilor_, ok I just like to have the code in in case you need to modify something
20090713 22:05:55< mordante> Ivanovic, really odd that file seems to be generated by cmake, did you test in a clean build directory?
20090713 22:05:57< Ivanovic> and now to check the result of the new pot-update
20090713 22:06:18< Ivanovic> i am using a build dir i used right before to build wesnoth via cmake
20090713 22:06:38< Ivanovic> that is: i get this message several times but things run through just like they should
20090713 22:06:54< mordante> odd, I've never seen that messge
20090713 22:06:57< mordante> message*
20090713 22:09:56< ilor_> mordante: have you ever got the loadscreen's progressbar overlayed on top of a dialog?
20090713 22:10:25< ilor_> mordante: seems to happen to me spuriously sometimes, saw it in newlobby and in old gui lobby_wait
20090713 22:10:49< mordante> ilor_, never seen it, neither in old nor in new gui
20090713 22:11:10< Ivanovic> wow, what a hell of an output chaos
20090713 22:11:21< Ivanovic> just run the new pot-update target with --jobs=5
20090713 22:12:02< ilor_> mordante: ugh. probably something somewhere calls something that sometimes calls a loadscren routine that draws directly onscreen
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20090713 22:13:13< CIA-53> mordante * r36884 /trunk/src/gui/widgets/generator.cpp: Allow invisible rows in a listbox.
20090713 22:13:49< Ivanovic> mordante: okay, a *slight* problem is left in the pot update:
20090713 22:13:51< Ivanovic> "Report-Msgid-Bugs-To: http://bugs.wesnoth.org/\n"
20090713 22:13:56< Ivanovic> that one changes to
20090713 22:14:04< CIA-53> mordante * r36885 /trunk/data/gui/default/window/lobby_main.cfg: 
20090713 22:14:04< CIA-53> WIP refactoring of the lobby main.
20090713 22:14:04< CIA-53> The refactoring should make the code more transparent and clear. Still
20090713 22:14:04< CIA-53> WIP but committing so ilor can work on the code without the risk of
20090713 22:14:05< CIA-53> merging problems.
20090713 22:14:05< Ivanovic> "Report-Msgid-Bugs-To: \n"
20090713 22:14:10< mordante> Ivanovic, you think I want to kill my computer :-P I'll test it soon
20090713 22:15:16< Ivanovic> that the output is garbled in that case is *expected*
20090713 22:15:26< mordante> ok
20090713 22:15:29< Ivanovic> what is the target to build all mo files?
20090713 22:15:42< Ivanovic> (the incorrect bug report line should be fixed though)
20090713 22:15:57< mordante> make mo-update2
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20090713 22:16:17< mordante> yup I'll have a look at those lines soon
20090713 22:17:01< mordante> and I need to test whether the changes in the .pot files are bad or only reformatting with the new process
20090713 22:17:17< mordante> it now wraps all lines
20090713 22:17:21< Ivanovic> the changes i saw at a short glance for just changing orders in comment blocks
20090713 22:18:13< mordante> ilor_, r36885 has the modified lobby, looks worse as before for now ;-)
20090713 22:18:45 * ilor_ checks
20090713 22:19:55< Ivanovic> not nice atm: the order is rather random (the order in which files with make mo-update2 are processed)
20090713 22:20:01< Ivanovic> http://pastebin.com/d1434e1a6
20090713 22:20:27< Ivanovic> ah, wait, it makes sense
20090713 22:20:40< Ivanovic> the order is just based on langs
20090713 22:20:50< Ivanovic> nothing has to be changed here
20090713 22:21:15< mordante> yup, that made implementing mo-update2-${LANG} easier
20090713 22:22:20< Ivanovic> that is really fine this way, was just unable to see the order at a first glance
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20090713 22:24:15< mordante> ok
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20090713 22:27:47< mordante> Ivanovic, does that mean that the output with -j 5 is good or still bad?
20090713 22:27:48< Ivanovic> once you got the line with "bug reports to" fixed i will upload a pot-update done via cmake
20090713 22:28:12< Ivanovic> output using -j5 will always be bad, no way around this
20090713 22:28:18< mordante> :-)
20090713 22:28:33< Ivanovic> but when generating the mo file before uploading i will just use plain -j1 and it is human readable
20090713 22:28:50< mordante> ok
20090713 22:29:19< Ivanovic> i just checked and poedit is able to open the main file as well as utbs after running the pot-update
20090713 22:29:26< Ivanovic> so i assume that it is fine
20090713 22:29:39< Ivanovic> (number of strings for those is identical to the current numbers at g.w.o)
20090713 22:30:11< mordante> also the stats are the same?
20090713 22:32:24< Ivanovic> jupp
20090713 22:32:40< Ivanovic> all stats for german are 100% identical to the ones of the last autotools based pot-update
20090713 22:35:10< mordante> great
20090713 22:35:42< Ivanovic> like i said, once the bugreport url is back in i will probably rely on the cmake based build to do pot-update
20090713 22:35:44< Ivanovic> s
20090713 22:36:01< Ivanovic> that is: when will the po4a stuff be in?
20090713 22:36:03< Ivanovic> ;)
20090713 22:36:11< Ivanovic> (so that i can completely rely on cmake)
20090713 22:36:13< mordante> I hope to fix that tomorrow
20090713 22:36:31< mordante> the bugreport ;-)
20090713 22:36:39< Ivanovic> :)
20090713 22:37:13< mordante> I want to look at po4a after the notification library stuff
20090713 22:37:36< mordante> no idea how complex it is and how good the stuff mog committed is
20090713 22:47:03< mordante> I'm off night
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20090713 22:57:47< crimson_penguin> Ivanovic: so are the translators gonna use that feature that my thing didn't support (but now does)?
20090713 22:58:41< kitty_> esr: did you see the requests for Æ, dd and ff characters in melinath's thread? On the one hand they appear in a lot of loayalist names but on the other hand i don't want the script to become a random collection of fancy letters either. hmm
20090713 22:59:15< Ivanovic> crimson_penguin: which feature?
20090713 23:01:11-!- ABCD [n=ABCD@wikipedia/ABCD] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090713 23:01:16< crimson_penguin> I forget, but it sounded useful :P
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20090713 23:03:19< lizard_r> Hi, for my patch I'm adding a function to statistics.cpp which will sum the gold value of all units you killed/lost. Currently it is
20090713 23:03:19< lizard_r> int sum_value_str_int_map(const stats::str_int_map& m);
20090713 23:03:19< lizard_r> is there a better name for it or should I just keep that?
20090713 23:05:59< Soliton> well, what does it do exactly? only calculate the gold value or is it more general?
20090713 23:06:01< esr> kitty_: Thinking about it....
20090713 23:06:31< esr> I need to look at the Human name corpus.
20090713 23:07:13< lizard_r> Soliton: only gold value
20090713 23:07:16< Crab_> lizard_r: it shouldn't matter much how it is named. but, why do this in C++ ? isn't it better to observe a 'unit killed' event and calculate the value of that counter using WML/lua/formula ai ?
20090713 23:07:42< esr> kitty: Easy fix for dd and ff - the lengthening sign can be applied to consonants to double them.
20090713 23:07:49< lizard_r> Crab_: did you see that: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=26244
20090713 23:07:57< Soliton> Crab_: it's supposed to be displayed in the statistics dialog.
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20090713 23:08:18< lizard_r> It isn't a winning condition for my next add-on
20090713 23:08:32< esr> kitty_: I'll look at the corpus abd see what, if any, vowel ligatures we need to support.
20090713 23:08:49< Crab_> Soliton: can we modify the stats dialog to display the values of a list of counters, defined in WML ?
20090713 23:09:16< kitty_> esr: ah - the solution for dd and ff sound's good, you will just add that to the description, right?
20090713 23:09:21< Soliton> Crab_: i don't think there is any sciptability there.
20090713 23:09:27< esr> kitty_: Yes.
20090713 23:09:48< Crab_> Soliton: why ? formula ai, for example, can easily deal with units and their abilities.
20090713 23:10:10< Soliton> Crab_: because no one made it so.
20090713 23:10:44< Soliton> lizard_r: can't you make it more general to also allow calculating of recruited/recalled/whatever gold sum?
20090713 23:11:10< lizard_r> recuited&recall is already done
20090713 23:11:33< Soliton> but not displayed?
20090713 23:11:57< lizard_r> I have added it to the dialog just not written about in the forum yet
20090713 23:12:26< lizard_r> stats_.recall_cost did already exist
20090713 23:12:36< lizard_r> as did stats_.recruit_cost
20090713 23:12:55< lizard_r> tsr already mentioned that, btw
20090713 23:13:02< Soliton> ahh, ok.
20090713 23:13:35< Crab_> Soliton, lizard_r: if someone adds the ability to 'register' additional statistics in the stats dialog on the fly, I can add the 'read a list of formula-based counters from WML and use them for evaluating statistics values' part.
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20090713 23:14:17< Soliton> Crab_: are those persistent?
20090713 23:14:28< Soliton> the counters i mean.
20090713 23:14:56< Crab_> Soliton: I can make them persist between saves. I'm working on savegame format changes for the ai at the moment, so I can add this in.
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20090713 23:15:41< Soliton> well, sounds like a nice idea, i suppose. not sure if that's something lizard_r would like to do though.
20090713 23:15:42< Crab_> formula ai is well-suited for that job. for example, calculating the total cost of all units on map is as easy as 'sum(map(units,self.cost))'
20090713 23:16:26< Crab_> the thing I need is the 'presentation part' - basically, a function to register/update a stats value.
20090713 23:18:14< lizard_r> about recuits, that already works http://imagebin.ca/view/7neorddY.html
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20090713 23:18:52< lizard_r> I'll try for the images when i get the figues right
20090713 23:20:21< Soliton> lizard_r: what Crab_ means is allowing formula ai access to the statistics so new statistics can be easily added, maybe even scenario specific ones.
20090713 23:21:50< lizard_r> this is the only C++ I ever made, so I probbably won't do s.th. of that magnitude now
20090713 23:22:13< lizard_r> s/probbably/certainly
20090713 23:22:49< Soliton> ok, no problem.
20090713 23:24:10< Soliton> about that function name.. i have no idea what it means atm. IMO the words gold and lost units should be in there.
20090713 23:25:05< Crab_> Soliton: yes, if there was a 'table' (2 columns: 'name', 'value') in the stats dialog,  backed by something like std::vector< std::map<std::string, std::string > > stats_   ( map of 'name->value' for each player ) , then I'll be able to 'add info' to this table from ai code. basically, each player will have his own counters.
20090713 23:25:11< lizard_r> I think I'll change it later when s.o. complains about the patch
20090713 23:26:02< lizard_r> it - the name of the function
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20090713 23:45:33< Crab_> Dragonking: around ?
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20090713 23:47:24< Dragonking> Crab_: Yes?
20090713 23:47:48< Crab_> Dragonking: what do you think about http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m7fcafc8e ?
20090713 23:48:10< Crab_> (I'm adding a new element which will handle ai parameters, and I want feedback)
20090713 23:50:00< Dragonking> What would formula return? number?
20090713 23:50:56< Crab_> yes, a number. for today, we'll probably need to return 10^N* actual_value from fai (before fai learns about numeric)
20090713 23:51:05< Dragonking> And since you add parameters it would be nice to be able ot access parameters form formula AI, for example like we have callable 'my_leader' we could have 'parameters'
20090713 23:52:15< Crab_> Dragonking: this will be possible. I'll add this to one of underlying contexts. there will be function to get the map with parameter values.
20090713 23:52:22< Dragonking> ok
20090713 23:52:23< Crab_> (or a value of a specific parameter)
20090713 23:52:26< Dragonking> Sounds good
20090713 23:53:25< Dragonking> Crab_: It looks good, if anything more comes to my mind I'll talk to you :)
20090713 23:53:29< Crab_> a question: do we want this 'parameters' to be writable to the ai ?
20090713 23:53:51< Dragonking> Hm... probably we would want to
20090713 23:53:58< Crab_> ok
20090713 23:54:02< Dragonking> Crab_: BTW, I was thinking about something
20090713 23:54:06< Crab_> yes ?
20090713 23:55:16< Dragonking> When writing formulas for recruitment, I realized that AI needs to know at which part of map it is supposed to play
20090713 23:55:57< Dragonking> On 1v1 we can look at the whole map, but with 3v3 it won't work well
20090713 23:56:36< Crab_> Dragonking: and how do you want to code it ? 'calculate from the ai' ? 'look at the hints file supplied with map' ?
20090713 23:56:56< Dragonking> Crab_: It would be good to be able to calculate it
20090713 23:57:07< Dragonking> Since we can have custom maps/random ones/etc
--- Log closed Tue Jul 14 00:00:00 2009