--- Log opened Wed Jul 22 00:00:15 2009
20090722 00:00:16< corn> hello :)
20090722 00:00:20< corn> http://cornmander.com/wesstats/killmaps
20090722 00:00:29< corn> how slow is that for you guys?
20090722 00:00:55< silene> 3 seconds to display it
20090722 00:01:01< corn> including all the tile rendering?
20090722 00:01:38< Dragonking> 3 seconds for tile rendering only
20090722 00:01:43< Dragonking> For me
20090722 00:01:46< corn> ok
20090722 00:01:59< corn> also, I need help figuring out what the grid alignment is
20090722 00:02:10< Crab_> silene: so, I'll need to do an implementation similar to wml syntax for paths, but using the 'id' parameter of the child tags when resolving []
20090722 00:02:20< corn> where is tile 0,0 on the map
20090722 00:02:24< corn> pixel wise
20090722 00:03:05< silene> corn: the tile rendering is 3s; the speed of the map itself is google-like
20090722 00:03:34< corn> ok, excellent
20090722 00:06:02< Dragonking> corn: WHen I use google maps, I can move around map in a smooth way, but with your map, it is really slow
20090722 00:06:10< Crab_> night
20090722 00:06:22< Dragonking> I get 1second "hops" while trying to move around
20090722 00:06:30< Dragonking> night Crab_ 
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20090722 00:06:45< corn> Dragonking: what version of FF are you running?
20090722 00:07:01< Dragonking> corn: Opera
20090722 00:07:02< Dragonking> :)
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20090722 00:07:24< corn> ah
20090722 00:07:46< CIA-63> cornmander * r37142 /website/stats.wesnoth.org/ (map_decoder.py wesstats/templates/killview.html): 
20090722 00:07:46< CIA-63> Initial hex grid generation in gmap. Added small script that will be expanded to give backend web scripts info on the map being parsed. Grid alignment is
20090722 00:07:46< CIA-63> still incorrect and the actual hexes are not exactly the right shape.
20090722 00:08:05< corn> I am not sure how opera is with JS parsing right now... I know that firefox and webkit based browsers (chome, safari, konq) should be blazing fast
20090722 00:08:10< corn> ff 3.5 that is
20090722 00:08:54< Dragonking> FF 3.0.6 - tile drawing - 8s
20090722 00:09:01< corn> ouch
20090722 00:09:24< corn> btw
20090722 00:09:29< corn> what are the dimensions for a hex
20090722 00:09:41< corn> right now I just made it a regular hex, the alignment is not good
20090722 00:10:52< Dragonking> corn: What kinf of computer do you have? Processor speed?
20090722 00:11:10< corn> core i7 920 (quadcore) with 6 gb of ram
20090722 00:11:12< Dragonking> corn: 2nd machine - FF 3.0.9 - 0s, there I have dual core 2.4GHz
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20090722 00:11:24< corn> tile rendering takes me 3 s
20090722 00:11:25< Dragonking> corn: Try running it on something slower ;)
20090722 00:11:37< corn> lol
20090722 00:11:43< corn> it's not just processor dependent too
20090722 00:11:53< Dragonking> True
20090722 00:12:01< corn> for me atleast linux has extremely bad alpha compositing
20090722 00:12:01< Dragonking> But I got 8s on 1.8 single core right now
20090722 00:12:11< corn> so these transparent tiles are making it run slow on my fast system
20090722 00:12:11< Dragonking> Both debian distros, 32 bit
20090722 00:12:53< corn> ok
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20090722 00:13:06< corn> time to break out a JS profiler on my end and see where all the time is being spent :)
20090722 00:13:14< Dragonking> :)
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20090722 00:15:18< fendrin> kitty_: Do you allow the usage of the goblin portrait from bera that shows a goblin with horn from behind (it was rejected because of the wrong pose) as a story image?
20090722 00:15:34< kitty_> link?
20090722 00:18:37< fendrin> kitty_: sorry, forget what I said, it was never coloured. http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/download/file.php?id=29778
20090722 00:19:23< kitty_> yeah, that was a nice concept but not very useable...
20090722 00:19:59< fendrin> even as story art?
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20090722 00:21:08< kitty_> oh, it could be story art if it was part of a whole picture. but as a stand alone i find it rather meager. anyways, since it isn't even coloured...
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20090722 01:00:41< melinath> kitty: question about merfolk.
20090722 01:01:03< melinath> what is the purpose of the english transcription?
20090722 01:01:25< melinath> i.e. with the wesnothian, we also can't really understand what's "written"
20090722 01:03:39< ilor> night all
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20090722 01:11:40< kitty_> melinath: because that's ultimately the way we use it. to put inscriptions on signposts that only say "this way" tattoos on dwarves that spell "hate" etc - eastereggs. or on a more serious note to use it to write a whole elvish text in the book lordbob plans to put in the utbs illustrations. why should we develop elphabets if we couldn't convey (albeit hidden) meaning with them?
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20090722 01:13:12< melinath> kitty_: Okay, that's what I thought.
20090722 01:13:51< melinath> kitty_: Then it's completely arbitrary. We can have a phonetic organization and reason for appearance, then a separate alphabetical arrangement for easter egg purposes
20090722 01:14:38< kitty_> yes, that's what i suggested - it would be nice to come up with the connection between those but not really necessary
20090722 01:19:17< melinath> Hmm... I'll post a syllabic "transcription"
20090722 01:22:14< Blarumyrran> I dont see where would you incorporate the saurian astronomy thing tho, nor how you can have any easter eggs in it
20090722 01:23:36< melinath> the astronomy is mathematical, not language. It has meaning on its own...
20090722 01:24:18< kitty_> nope that was just for fun - perhaps a campaign designer could menation it somewhere, or at least the measurement system
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20090722 01:32:57< kitty_> melinath: combination of your system and my letterforms: http://imagebin.ca/img/yREJMy.jpg
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20090722 01:39:08< melinath> kitty: possible easter egg transcription... might be too complicated. http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=370130#p370130
20090722 01:41:03< kitty_> woha - really complicated, but works for me! what does "null" mean in that context? no sound?
20090722 01:42:01< melinath> kitty: for syllables that are open on one end.
20090722 01:42:17< kitty_> ah, ok
20090722 01:42:20< melinath> apple = ap-ple
20090722 01:42:36< melinath> (growl falling short)
20090722 01:44:21< melinath> kitty: the glyphs you've got would probably work. I was imagining more a base glyph that doesn't change with two diaritics that do
20090722 01:44:33< melinath> sort of like with the drakes, but simpler
20090722 01:44:46< melinath> four base glyphs, that is.
20090722 01:45:44< melinath> But I don't know if that's any more or less valid than how you did it.
20090722 01:46:00< kitty_> hmm, but the drakes already got the simple triangle shapes and the surians got plenty of the base geometric forms, too. 
20090722 01:46:28< melinath> sorry - I was unclear.
20090722 01:46:46< melinath> I don't mean that the glyph forms should be simple.
20090722 01:47:13< kitty_> then what should be simple?
20090722 01:47:15< melinath> I mean simple in the sense that a drake triangle can have (if I understood right)
20090722 01:47:25< melinath> an unlimited number of additional elements.
20090722 01:47:34< melinath> or nearly unlimited.
20090722 01:47:46< kitty_> a drake triangle alone is blank - it means nothing
20090722 01:48:24< melinath> Right, and then you add all sorts of elements.
20090722 01:48:35< melinath> This was perhaps not the best comparison.
20090722 01:48:56< melinath> I'll start over.
20090722 01:49:41< melinath> Keep in mind, this is just how I was imagining it.
20090722 01:49:51< melinath> Four base glyphs, for the qualities.
20090722 01:50:03< melinath> Each glyph with two sets of diaritics
20090722 01:50:15< melinath> one for length, one for pitch changes.
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20090722 01:51:26< kitty_> that's basically very similar to how i did it; four base glyphs, one set of diacritics for pitch and instead of a second set of diacritics i compress or extend the base glyph
20090722 01:53:26< melinath> The one thing that bothers me is that this makes the length of the sound seem more important than the pitch
20090722 01:53:51< melinath> because it modifies the base glyph
20090722 01:53:54< kitty_> no, the pitch is to the left, you first see the pitch and then the length and glyph
20090722 01:55:31< kitty_> to me that's a intuitive solution, every version with two sets of diacritics added to every glyph  i tried was extremely confusing
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20090722 01:55:49< melinath> okay
20090722 01:56:05< kitty_> just trying to defend my version :P
20090722 01:56:18< melinath> Which is legitimate
20090722 01:56:27< melinath> It took effort and looks good.
20090722 01:57:46< kitty_> :)
20090722 01:58:46< melinath> I stumbled a bit on how intuitive it is - how closely it mimics the sound (the shorter syllables are shorter, and the pitch levels graphically represent the actual pitch changes)
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20090722 01:59:11< melinath> Diacritics are (I think) usually abstracter
20090722 01:59:18< melinath> for example, the umlaut dots
20090722 01:59:40< melinath> or a circumflex
20090722 02:00:00< kitty_> yes, that depends on how long they are using it, I think. the longer, the more abstract
20090722 02:00:30< melinath> That would make sense.
20090722 02:05:33< melinath> If the ones with two diacritics are too confusing, w/e. Not that important.
20090722 02:06:28< kitty_> perhaps there is a intuitive and simple and elegant solution for two diacrtitics on each glyph - I just couldn't find it :P
20090722 02:09:33< melinath> Do you mind if I give it a shot with the rune-like glyphs?
20090722 02:10:38< kitty_> testing won't hurt, but we already have runes for the dwarves and human magic... I wouldn't like to see them used for everything, that gets boring and stops working as cultural distinctions.
20090722 02:10:58< kitty_> what kind of runes are you thinking of?
20090722 02:11:03< melinath> no, I mean...
20090722 02:11:21< melinath> you posted originally the merman calligraphy and a more rune-like version.
20090722 02:12:00< kitty_> hmm, i meant those as the historic roots of the first alphabet i proposed, i didn't actually want to use them.
20090722 02:12:02< melinath> Since I lack the skill to try to experiment with the calligraphy, I thought I might try it with the more rune-like ones.
20090722 02:12:24< kitty_> so you would choose four of the runes and start adding diacritics?
20090722 02:12:38< melinath> If it's all right
20090722 02:13:04< kitty_> of course
20090722 02:13:14< kitty_> but that was another one of my problems, only four base glyphs look very boring and repetive very, very fast...
20090722 02:13:23< melinath> the calligraphy might not even have the diacritics any more - they could be incorporated into the letter. Though that would mean 48 unique glyphs
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20090722 02:40:54< melinath> kitty: http://imagebin.ca/view/TqtCTj.html
20090722 02:43:33< melinath> Obviously this is not usable, but it was a fun experiment
20090722 02:44:18< melinath> I only went through the first 24 combinations.
20090722 02:49:09< melinath> Since I was experimenting, I didn't try every single way of combining the diacritic with the base glyph that would be possible, but I tried to give a sample.
20090722 02:49:28< melinath> In some cases, it worked better than others.
20090722 02:50:03< melinath> It seems like if the base glyph is simple enough, the diacritics become more part of the glyph...
20090722 02:50:37< melinath> so instead of having one clearly recognizable glyph with diacritics, you have 12 glyphs that happen to share a simple common element.
20090722 02:51:15< melinath> Anyway, I need to sleep. night.
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20090722 03:47:30< corn> hey all
20090722 03:47:35< corn> http://cornmander.com/wesstats/killmaps
20090722 03:47:35< CIA-63> cornmander * r37143 /website/stats.wesnoth.org/wesstats/templates/killview.html: Fixed tile alignment, changed regular hexes to the irregular hexes that wesnoth issues. Must still look into performance issues and minor misalignment.
20090722 03:47:50< corn> can you tell me how this runs on your computers?
20090722 03:50:42< corn> personally the hex grid completely generates in 5 sec for me and then I get stuttering on the movement
20090722 03:50:56< corn> both on ff 3.0.11 and 3.5.1
20090722 03:51:08< corn> pretty sure I have some alpha compositing issue
20090722 03:51:17< Blueblaze> corn: Same here
20090722 03:51:27< corn> are you running in windows or linux?
20090722 03:51:29< Blueblaze> I'm running on a 1.4ghz celeron laptop that is about 4 years old, so that might not mean very much :)
20090722 03:51:31< Blueblaze> Linux
20090722 03:51:37< shadowmaster> same here, Debian
20090722 03:51:40< corn> no, I think this is linux-specific
20090722 03:51:52< shadowmaster> Iceweasel fork from Firefox 3.0.8
20090722 03:52:34< corn> I will try replacing the SVGs that gmaps generates with PNG files... but I am not sure it'll fix it
20090722 03:58:18< crimson_penguin> how does upkeep actually work? it doesn't seem to be 1 gold per unit..
20090722 03:58:51< AI0867> 1 gold per level
20090722 03:59:03< AI0867> leaders and loyals are free
20090722 03:59:18< AI0867> every village reduces upkeep by 1
20090722 04:00:19< AI0867> l3 leader + l2 loyal + 3 * l3 + 2 * l2 + 5 * l1 + 10000 * l0 + 10 villages = 3 * 3 + 2 * 2 + 5 * 1 - 10 (with a minimum of 0)
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20090722 05:01:19< CIA-63> esr * r37144 /trunk/data/campaigns/Son_Of_The_Black_Eye/scenarios/14_Back_Home.cfg: Address bug #13970.
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20090722 05:35:33< corn> Sirp: check out http://cornmander.com/wesstats/killmaps
20090722 05:36:06< corn> the gmaps interface for per-hex map stats is almost done
20090722 05:36:44< corn> clicking on a particular tile brings up a window with stats on it... it's currently a broken stub
20090722 05:37:24< corn> can you put up the src code for the upload server somewhere or direct me to it, so that I can begin implementing changes to what gets uploaded?
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20090722 05:44:36< Sirp> corn: whoah, cool! :)
20090722 05:44:48< corn_> is it slow for you?
20090722 05:45:09< Sirp> corn: hard to tell; I'm in a hotel right now and have a very slow connection
20090722 05:45:23< corn_> well, does it stutter when you try to move the map around
20090722 05:45:51< corn_> drawing so many hexes really strains gmaps
20090722 05:47:32< Sirp> corn: http://www.wesnoth.org/files/dave/upload.cpp
20090722 05:47:35< Turuk> Sirp!
20090722 05:47:39< corn_> ok, thanks a lot :)
20090722 05:47:43< Sirp> corn: it doesn't really stutter when I move it around...seems to work fine.
20090722 05:47:47< corn_> ok
20090722 05:47:59< Sirp> corn: yeah I can really move it around without a problem
20090722 05:48:07< corn_> I am psychic: you are running windows
20090722 05:48:27< corn_> in general it seems like ff under linux has alpha compositing performance problems
20090722 05:50:17< corn_> Sirp: thanks for the upload, will get hacking sometime tonight or tomorrow )
20090722 05:50:20< corn_> :)
20090722 05:52:15< Sirp> corn_: yeah I'm running Windows. Can try on Linux when I get back hom
20090722 05:52:19< Sirp> home
20090722 05:52:22< corn_> sure
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20090722 05:58:49< CIA-63> cornmander * r37145 /website/stats.wesnoth.org/wesstats/templates/killview.html: 
20090722 05:58:49< CIA-63> Added The ability to tie in data to particular hexes. Click on a hex in the map to bring up a popup with hex-specific data
20090722 05:58:49< CIA-63> (currently only the hex coordinate).
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20090722 06:09:14-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 64 bugs, 238 feature requests, 14 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20090722 08:48:05< euschn> hi
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20090722 09:45:58< YogiHH> hello
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20090722 11:11:45< stikonas> zookeeper: here?
20090722 11:13:20< stikonas> esr: here?
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20090722 11:18:28< stikonas> in httt scenarios 18 and 19c there is a lot of speaking about travelling up the stream, but according to wesnoth map they are travelling down the stream
20090722 11:19:57< _rtfb> ...what stikonas said, plus "There is a waterfall ahead. It is so high I can barely see the top of it!"
20090722 11:21:43< Soliton> that sounds like upstream though.
20090722 11:22:20< stikonas> Soliton: but according to Wesnoth map Arkan-Thoria flows to the east, the same direction they party is travelling
20090722 11:22:46< stikonas> s/they/their/
20090722 11:24:03< Soliton> yeah, something needs changing.
20090722 11:24:23 * zookeeper shrugs
20090722 11:24:29< stikonas> and probably needs backporting to 1.6
20090722 11:25:07< _rtfb> (voice from off-screen): the map! You're holding it upside down! :-)
20090722 11:25:51< zookeeper> so what exactly in the map implies that it flows to the east?
20090722 11:26:08< _rtfb> zookeeper, river, flowing from mountains downward into another river
20090722 11:26:14< zookeeper> yeah, thought so..
20090722 11:26:28< Soliton> and that river ends in the sea.
20090722 11:28:15< zookeeper> well, upstream->downstream is a simple change, not sure what to do about the waterfall
20090722 11:28:16< stikonas> yeah, it would be strange if water flowed from the Great Ocean to Lake Vrug
20090722 11:30:20< Soliton> well, whether the waterfall goes up or down.. it's either way a big problem, no?
20090722 11:32:04< _rtfb> Soliton, yeah, the narrative shouldn't change a lot only because the waterfall now falls in the right direction
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20090722 12:09:14-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 65 bugs, 238 feature requests, 14 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20090722 12:27:22< esr> stikonas: What's up?
20090722 12:27:52< stikonas> esr: well there is a serious geographic inconsistency in httt
20090722 12:28:02< esr> Yes?
20090722 12:28:06< stikonas> we discussed id with zookeeper, Soliton and _rtfb
20090722 12:28:12< stikonas> can you read the logs?
20090722 12:28:23< stikonas> though nobody fixed it yet
20090722 12:28:53< esr> Looking at backscroll
20090722 12:31:59< esr> stikonas: Mot finding it in backscroll.  Can you give me an approximate time and some keywords?
20090722 12:32:26< _rtfb> esr, look for waterfall
20090722 12:32:28< stikonas> about an 1h 10 min ago, waterfall, 
20090722 12:32:38< esr> OK, will do.
20090722 12:37:34< esr> Search for "waterfall" is failing.
20090722 12:38:16< Soliton> it's like the last thing that was talked about.. just scroll up a bit.
20090722 12:38:41< esr> Ah, I found it.
20090722 12:38:43< zookeeper> yes, and your search is broken then
20090722 12:38:45< esr> Reading...
20090722 12:39:52< _rtfb> and I just realised that the ships in the mountain river, above waterfall, make no sense...
20090722 12:40:28< _rtfb> :-/
20090722 12:40:28< esr> I will look into this after my next commit, in a few minutes.
20090722 12:42:32< CIA-63> esr * r37146 /trunk/data/ (3 files in 3 dirs): wmlscope/wmllint cleanup.
20090722 12:53:44< esr> zookeeper: My search is OK, had the wrong file.
20090722 12:54:00< esr> Am looking into the geography problem.
20090722 13:01:15< CIA-63> soliton * r37147 /branches/1.6/src/server/server.cpp: give better responses on failed admin attempts
20090722 13:01:24< CIA-63> soliton * r37148 /branches/1.6/ (3 files in 2 dirs): 
20090722 13:01:24< CIA-63> don't use a specific id for the stun object so it works multiple times
20090722 13:01:24< CIA-63> fixes bug #13978: UtBS: "stun" ability doesn't modify enemy ZoC
20090722 13:02:07< CIA-63> soliton * r37149 /trunk/src/server/server.cpp: give better responses on failed admin attempts
20090722 13:02:16< CIA-63> soliton * r37150 /trunk/ (3 files in 2 dirs): 
20090722 13:02:16< CIA-63> don't use a specific id for the stun object so it works multiple times
20090722 13:02:16< CIA-63> fixes bug #13978: UtBS: "stun" ability doesn't modify enemy ZoC
20090722 13:03:17< esr> OK, have fix for "upstream"m dialog.  Looking into the waterfall issue next.
20090722 13:05:30< Soliton> elias: seen the bug assigned to you?
20090722 13:13:52< Soliton> ilor: trunk server crashed: http://nopaste.com/p/aqZuk1onpb  there were a couple of "20090721 18:43:56 error network: Pending socket set is full! Disconnecting 0xb3f02c88 connection" errors near the end of the log.
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20090722 13:22:22< esr> Now I have a fix for the waterfall issue.
20090722 13:22:51< esr> The ships are a seious problem, though.  How are they supposed to have gotten there?
20090722 13:23:30< _rtfb> the river used to flow in the opposite direction, so it used to make (a little) sense
20090722 13:23:37< loonycyborg> They were carried there or already constructed beyond waterfall :P
20090722 13:25:16< zookeeper> i have an explanation
20090722 13:25:18< zookeeper> magic!
20090722 13:26:14< esr> If magic were this powerful in Wesnoth there would be many other plot-visible consequences.
20090722 13:27:16< Soliton> like whole new suns being lifted into the sky.
20090722 13:28:17< esr> Well, there is that...but why would people do long journeys on foot if Greater Teleport were readily available?
20090722 13:28:41< loonycyborg> If that spell had a great material cost.
20090722 13:29:34< esr> loonycyborg: Reasonable, but that just makes the question "Why pay it?"  What about the upper reaches of the Arkan-thoria is so important?
20090722 13:32:29< Soliton> what ship (wrecks) are a problem anyway? the ones right infront of the waterfall? can they not just be removed?
20090722 13:32:46< esr> Soliton: I'm going top look into that.
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20090722 13:33:05< esr> If they have no gameplay significance I'll just yank 'em.
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20090722 13:39:15< esr> Can't yank 'em.  They're a significant backstory element.
20090722 13:40:19< esr> Guess I'll downgrade the ships to boats.  They must have been built locally, or in the forests around lake Vrug. 
20090722 13:46:20< _rtfb> that's much better
20090722 13:46:34< _rtfb> thanks for a quick reaction, esr!
20090722 13:46:49< _rtfb> are you going to backport the changes to 1.6?
20090722 13:47:02< esr> I'm almost finished.  You were right to call me in, I'm good at this sort of thing.
20090722 13:47:40< esr> Not sure I should backport, it would create significant translation issues.
20090722 13:48:19< esr> "These are not proper ships, but shallow-draft boats built only recently; much of their timber is green. They were sunk in battle, not by a storm. Those that were not capsized have been burned. The battle must have taken place not long ago, perhaps only a few weeks past. We've found no survivors. One more thing...all flew the banner of the Crown of Wesnoth."
20090722 13:49:25< esr> This is an especially good solution because the line is from a merman - you'd expect them to have an eye for the details of ship construction.
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20090722 13:49:48< YogiHH> IIRC there have been journeys in the past with ships going upstream, that were carried over land when facing waterfalls. Haven't the vikings done this sort of thing?
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20090722 13:50:58< esr> YogiHH: Yes, portaging might be piossible, except iit would contradict the premise that there's no easy way around the cataract.
20090722 13:51:08< esr> (I thought of that before.)
20090722 13:51:29< YogiHH> ah, ok
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20090722 14:02:01< CIA-63> esr * r37151 /trunk/data/campaigns/Heir_To_The_Throne/scenarios/ (18_A_Choice_Must_Be_Made.cfg 19c_Cliffs_of_Thoria.cfg): Fix continuity issues relating to the flow directtion of the Arkan-thoria, the cataract, and the presence of Wesnothian ships on the river.
20090722 14:02:48< Soliton> ilor: trunk server crashed: http://nopaste.com/p/aqZuk1onpb  there were a couple of "20090721 18:43:56 error network: Pending socket set is full! Disconnecting 0xb3f02c88 connection" errors near the end of the log.
20090722 14:04:17< _rtfb> btw, esr, while we're at that river, how is it supposed to be translated? Is the Longlier name constructed from long + lies?
20090722 14:04:38< esr> _rtfb: Correct.
20090722 14:04:56< esr> I'll add a translator's note.
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20090722 14:05:16< esr> (That was one of my inventions.)
20090722 14:05:40< _rtfb> wanted to ask you about some other of your inventions...
20090722 14:05:44< _rtfb> forgot what was it...
20090722 14:06:01 * _rtfb looks for notes
20090722 14:06:58< _rtfb> Heart Mountains!
20090722 14:07:24< _rtfb> what's the Heart here? As in the organ? Or as in the center? Something else?
20090722 14:08:31< esr> Heart as in Heart of the North.
20090722 14:08:41< esr> or Heart of the Continent.
20090722 14:08:53< esr> The sense is of "center".
20090722 14:09:06< _rtfb> I think I got it, thanks
20090722 14:10:17< CIA-63> esr * r37152 /trunk/data/campaigns/Heir_To_The_Throne/scenarios/18_A_Choice_Must_Be_Made.cfg: Added translator's note.
20090722 14:10:47< esr> It is intended that "Heart Mountains" is a human loan-translation of the Dwarvish name for them.
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20090722 14:21:50< CIA-63> euschn * r37153 /trunk/src/team.cpp: team_info::write now adds a 'persistent' flag
20090722 14:23:06< ilor> Soliton: I've no idea :/
20090722 14:32:58< Soliton> euschn: i get "wesnoth: src/playcampaign.cpp:571: LEVEL_RESULT play_game(display&, game_state&, const config&, upload_log&, io_type_t, bool): Assertion `!gamestate.snapshot.empty()' failed." when trying to advance to scenario 17 of DM.
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20090722 14:34:21< euschn> Soliton: ok, I will have a look at that
20090722 14:34:45< euschn> Soliton: could you supply a savegame to I can try it myself?
20090722 14:35:09 * Polarina hates herself.
20090722 14:35:21< ilor> Soliton: I don't know what could cause the error, but maybe there should be a return 0; after SDLNet_TCP_Close(sock) in network.cpp line 525?
20090722 14:36:52< Soliton> euschn: files.wesnoth.org/soliton
20090722 14:38:39< Soliton> ilor: sounds like a good idea.
20090722 14:39:20< euschn> Soliton: I get a 403 error when trying to access the file
20090722 14:39:38< Soliton> can't you just :cl there?
20090722 14:39:46< euschn> :cl ?
20090722 14:39:58< CIA-63> esr * r37154 /trunk/data/campaigns/Heir_To_The_Throne/scenarios/19c_Cliffs_of_Thoria.cfg: Dialog polish.
20090722 14:40:08< Soliton> persmissions fixed.
20090722 14:40:12< euschn> thanks
20090722 14:42:47< Soliton> euschn: :debug; :cl; click on the scenario you want.
20090722 14:42:50< ilor> afk 15min
20090722 14:43:44< euschn> Soliton: ah thanks, I did not know about that
20090722 14:44:05< Soliton> no problem.
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20090722 15:07:50< ilor> Soliton: I think the problem is that the socked is added to pending_sockets regardless of whether there's an error
20090722 15:09:01< ilor> aaand the for loop at around line 540 looks UB to me, it erases a vector element while iterating through it
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20090722 15:13:50< Soliton> yeah, curious how that worked so far.
20090722 15:14:30< ilor> Soliton: I'll have some fixes in a sec
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20090722 15:16:01< ilor> Soliton: this "loop" is very curious
20090722 15:17:00< ilor> it's not really a loop. the only way this can get more than one iteration is through the continue; at the beginning
20090722 15:17:23< ilor> taht's why the erase(i) is in fact "safe"
20090722 15:17:46< Soliton> ah, just loops until it finds a ready socket, indeed.
20090722 15:18:17< ilor> the for what possible reason does it have all the stuff in the loop body
20090722 15:18:26< ilor> s/the/then/
20090722 15:18:53< Soliton> so you can ask questions about it!
20090722 15:19:38< ilor> yeha, that bit of the design works :P
20090722 15:20:08< CIA-63> esr * r37155 /trunk/data/multiplayer/scenarios/4p_A_New_Land.cfg: Work around a wmllint glitch that's probably not worth fixing.
20090722 15:20:14< CIA-63> euschn * r37156 /trunk/src/ (game_events.cpp playsingle_controller.cpp): fixed persistence of teams for scenarios with 0 teams
20090722 15:20:27< euschn> Soliton: I think that should fix it, but please test for yourself
20090722 15:20:42< Soliton> cool, will do.
20090722 15:21:26< euschn> by the way, using :cl is not optimal in that case, as I need to test if gold/recalls are carried over properly - if i start a campaign and use :cl i probably have neither
20090722 15:22:12< Soliton> yeah, would have needed to start a scenario earlier probably.
20090722 15:27:53< Soliton> euschn: works, thanks!
20090722 15:28:09< euschn> np, thanks for pointing me to it
20090722 15:30:49 * esr looks for bugs he might be able to fix
20090722 15:39:44< CIA-63> ilor * r37157 /trunk/src/network.cpp: output sdlnet diagnostic messages on some errors in network::accept_connection()
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20090722 16:00:16< Ivanovic> hi
20090722 16:00:33< esr> Morning, Ivanovic 
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20090722 16:01:41< esr> I'm back from sword camp and fixed a continuity bug in HttT this morning.  It was a dialog-only change; what's the policy on whetrher we backport to 1.6?
20090722 16:02:50< zookeeper> doesn't sound important enough to backport.
20090722 16:03:00< Ivanovic> esr: personally i would say: from now on screw backporting of spelling fixes!
20090722 16:03:33< Ivanovic> yes, i already told translators that they can/should start working on the campaigns in trunk
20090722 16:03:43< esr> I also think it's not really important enough top backport, but I wanted to get some handle on what the policy is.
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20090722 16:16:20< CIA-63> ilor * r37161 /trunk/src/network.cpp: refactor the pending-connectionm bit of accept_connection into a separate function
20090722 16:16:22< CIA-63> ilor * r37159 /trunk/src/network.cpp: fix possible UB in accept_connection() (even if it's not really UB)
20090722 16:16:23< CIA-63> ilor * r37160 /trunk/src/network.cpp: refactor the pseudo-loop in accept_connection
20090722 16:16:23< CIA-63> ilor * r37158 /trunk/src/network.cpp: network::accept_connection - only add a socket to pending_sockets if we don't intend to close it a second later, add a debug message for one more fail condition
20090722 16:17:59< esr> ilor: UB = ?
20090722 16:18:16< Soliton> undefined behaviour
20090722 16:18:54< esr> Ah, thanks.
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20090722 16:21:18< Soliton> esr: delfador talks to a dead iliah-malal in DM 18.
20090722 16:21:30< esr> ?
20090722 16:21:37< esr> I'll look.
20090722 16:21:59< Soliton> you need to ressurect him for the final dialog if he died earlier.
20090722 16:26:48< Soliton> well, the whole rest of the scenario makes little sense when that guy is dead.
20090722 16:33:29< Ivanovic> i hope that mordante joins again before going on holidays so that this assert gets fixed... https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?14001
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20090722 16:59:42< CIA-63> esr * r37162 /trunk/data/campaigns/Son_Of_The_Black_Eye/scenarios/14_Back_Home.cfg: 
20090722 16:59:42< CIA-63> More tweaks for bug #13970: Dialog error in SotBE Scenario 14 - Back Home.
20090722 16:59:42< CIA-63> Having Kapou'e refer to Black-Eye Karun in the third person is OK, as
20090722 16:59:42< CIA-63> Karun is his father - not him.
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20090722 17:40:06< esr> Soliton: I'm not able to visualize a sequence of events that will cause Delfadir to talk to Iliiah-Malal after the latter dies. The way the events are interlocked should prevent this. Have you actually seen it happen?
20090722 17:40:28< CIA-63> euschn * r37163 /trunk/src/ (gamestatus.cpp playsingle_controller.cpp): simplified storing of carryover information in game_state.snapshot
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20090722 17:46:33< Soliton> esr: yes.. i fail to see how there is anything interlocked.
20090722 17:48:03< esr> The dialog triggers when Delf reaches the portal of doom.  That event calls the one that materializes Iliah-Malal....hm, but that's not the case you're worried about, is it?
20090722 17:50:25< Soliton> if you manage to reach the portal in under 9 turns then, yes.
20090722 17:50:40< Soliton> i'd think that unlikely.
20090722 17:52:02< Soliton> i guess you just need to remove the turn 9 event.
20090722 17:57:24< esr> Hmmm....
20090722 17:57:59< esr> The idea, though, is that that event is timed so the posse will jump you omn the way there.
20090722 17:58:20< CIA-63> euschn * r37164 /trunk/src/ (gamestatus.cpp gamestatus.hpp): added optional parameter merge_side to game_state::write_players()
20090722 17:58:25< esr> That's important to the battle flow.
20090722 18:00:11< Soliton> maybe when you play it for the first time.
20090722 18:00:25< Soliton> the second time you crush him as soon as he pops up.
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20090722 18:09:14-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 64 bugs, 238 feature requests, 14 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20090722 18:27:33< esr> Is there an AI expert handy?  I think., to fix Soliton's issue, I need to set passive_leader at start of scenario and then clear it when Delf reaches the portal.  Is there a way to do this, and will it allow Iliah-Malal to move after that?
20090722 18:33:12< CIA-63> mcshark * r37165 /trunk/projectfiles/ (CodeBlocks/wesnoth.cbp CodeBlocks-SCons/wesnoth.cbp): Update according to recent file changes
20090722 18:34:42< crimson_penguin> Speaking of AI, I was playing an MP game, and the AI elvish marksman attacked a skeleton archer on 60%, instead of a skeleton on 60%, a bunch of drakes on 40%, and I think maybe a ghoul (no ranged)
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20090722 19:07:28< CIA-63> soliton * r37166 /trunk/ (8 files in 2 dirs): 
20090722 19:07:28< CIA-63> * Added Dwarvish Stalwart, Elder Wose, Shock Trooper and White Mage to random_leader of the default era.
20090722 19:07:28< CIA-63> * Added Ancient Wose, Dwarvish Sentinel, Iron Mauler and Mage of Light to random_leader of the AoH era.
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20090722 19:21:16< Ivanovic> corn: and you are right, FF is *a lot* slower with the killmaps than eg konqueror
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20090722 19:38:43< Dragonking> I just drew on a map about 2000 labels and game became unusable...
20090722 19:42:23< shadowmaster> I admire your patience. I'd not be able to put more than 20 labels
20090722 19:42:58< Dragonking> I simply executed one-line formula. :)
20090722 19:43:28< shadowmaster> unusuable == poor performance? Or did it just lock up forever?
20090722 19:43:48< Dragonking> Poor performance
20090722 19:44:49< Dragonking> Eating 100% of my CPU just for drawing
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20090722 20:03:56< shadowmaster> uhm, in all this time, has anyone implemented a way to get shroud data from WML?
20090722 20:07:01-!- Sapient [n=patrickp@wesnoth/developer/sapient] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090722 20:08:00< Sapient> esr: I like all of your changes in r37151 except "self-oriented" > "silly self-centered"
20090722 20:08:34< esr> Suggestion for improvement?
20090722 20:09:54< Sapient> I realize that the original author probably wrote "self-oriented" due to infamiliarity with English common usage, but for a sea monster unaccustomed to human discourse it seems rather fitting
20090722 20:10:45< Sapient> or at least, far more appropriate than "silly self-centered" which reminds me more of Paper Mario's boss dialogue
20090722 20:10:56< grzywacz> hi
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20090722 20:13:37< Ivanovic> grzywacz: could you please test something?
20090722 20:13:43< Ivanovic> regarding the crackling sound
20090722 20:13:50< esr> Sapient: I could remove "silly", I suppose.
20090722 20:14:00< Ivanovic> switch to 22kHz in the advanced audio prefs
20090722 20:14:06< shadowmaster> wesbot: seen boucman
20090722 20:14:06< wesbot> shadowmaster: The person with the nick boucman last spoke 20h 27m ago.  20h 27m ago they left with the message: "Leaving."
20090722 20:14:19< esr> I was trying for comic effect, but perhaps it misfired.
20090722 20:14:58< grzywacz> Ivanovic, sure
20090722 20:15:35< Ivanovic> i once switched to 22.1kHz, played a little and had no crackling
20090722 20:15:51< Ivanovic> went back to 44.2kHz and now there is no crackling at the default value either
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20090722 20:18:41< grzywacz> 44.1?
20090722 20:18:48< Ivanovic> the default there
20090722 20:18:59< Ivanovic> hmm, the whole does not seem to crackle anymore
20090722 20:19:13< Ivanovic> that is even 1.6.x is free of crackling, so probably something in my system changed...
20090722 20:19:25< shadowmaster> isn't it the default everywhere?
20090722 20:19:46< Ivanovic> shadowmaster: the default is something with 44kHz
20090722 20:19:51< grzywacz> 44.1
20090722 20:19:55 * shadowmaster looking at src/preferences.cpp:616
20090722 20:20:01< shadowmaster> yes, that's what I mean
20090722 20:20:03< Ivanovic> somehow i had crackling sound in my 64bit box with an emu10k1 based card
20090722 20:20:21< Ivanovic> and now it is gone after i tested a little with switching to 22kHz
20090722 20:20:27< shadowmaster> ehm... 44100 != 44kHz
20090722 20:20:34< shadowmaster> it's 44.1 kHz
20090722 20:20:55< Ivanovic> but it seems like it is fixed on my whole system, not just because of switching, since i only tested with trunk and 1.6 is fine now, too
20090722 20:21:06< Ivanovic> shadowmaster: whatever, i am too lazy to type this .1 everytime
20090722 20:21:13< shadowmaster> kernel change?
20090722 20:21:17< Ivanovic> nope
20090722 20:21:35< shadowmaster> or some-random-library-that-temporarily-broke-for-gentoo-users ? ;)
20090722 20:21:36< Ivanovic> that kernel is the same for some time already and i had it crackling with this one (2.6.30.1 that is)
20090722 20:21:40< grzywacz> Ivanovic, something in the system.
20090722 20:21:47< grzywacz> Ivanovic, can't reproduce with my test program anymore either.
20090722 20:21:54< Ivanovic> shadowmaster: yeah, the random lib is called libsdl
20090722 20:21:56< Ivanovic> ;)
20090722 20:22:07< Ivanovic> though probably not, since i don't remember any update in that area
20090722 20:22:08< grzywacz> shadowmaster, for Debian as well
20090722 20:22:45< shadowmaster> ah well, I'm not using sid *hides*
20090722 20:23:24< grzywacz> ah no
20090722 20:23:25< grzywacz> wait
20090722 20:23:27< grzywacz> wait wait wait
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20090722 20:23:50< grzywacz> Ivanovic, no cheating
20090722 20:23:55< grzywacz> Ivanovic, export SDL_AUDIODRIVER=alsa first
20090722 20:23:57< grzywacz> :P
20090722 20:24:29 * shadowmaster disabled the whole OSS core in the kernel config
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20090722 20:24:39< YogiHH> hello
20090722 20:24:44< grzywacz> shadowmaster, there's oss compatibility api in alsa
20090722 20:24:52< grzywacz> shadowmaster, and it happens to work, while pure alsa crackles
20090722 20:24:52< shadowmaster> yes, but that's not the same core
20090722 20:24:58< shadowmaster> oh.
20090722 20:25:37< shadowmaster> I'll rebuild trunk to see how it goes with Debian stable and Linux 2.6.28.8 ;)
20090722 20:27:50< Ivanovic> grzywacz: this export changes *nothing*
20090722 20:28:04< grzywacz> shadowmaster, do you have emu10k1?
20090722 20:29:42< Ivanovic> shadowmaster: it just seems to occur with emu10k1 based cards and sdl progs
20090722 20:30:00< Ivanovic> that is grzywacz managed to write some libsdl based sample player which crackles
20090722 20:30:13< Ivanovic> oh, right, and it is 64bit specific, too
20090722 20:30:16< shadowmaster> 01:05.1 Audio device: ATI Technologies Inc RS780 Azalia controller
20090722 20:30:36< Ivanovic> won't be able to get the crackling with this one
20090722 20:30:43< shadowmaster> yeah
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20090722 20:31:00< Ivanovic> eg this one helps:
20090722 20:31:02< Ivanovic> 05:01.0 Multimedia audio controller: Creative Labs SB Audigy (rev 04)
20090722 20:34:05< grzywacz> Ivanovic, it's not, Dragonking reported crackling on a 32bit debian
20090722 20:34:27< Ivanovic> grzywacz: ah, okay
20090722 20:34:45< Ivanovic> because i remember time (some ages ago when i was still on 32bit) that there was no crackling
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20090722 20:38:16< grzywacz> There was no crackling on my 64bit system either, a long time ago.
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20090722 21:03:03< silene> hi
20090722 21:04:25< grzywacz> hi silene 
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20090722 21:16:03< davidhiltonp32> wesnoth 1.6.1 and 1.6.4 (at least) don't compile under gcc 4.4 and higher, due to -Werror being enabled
20090722 21:16:38< davidhiltonp32> I was unable to find this fact in the bug tracker, and thought that I'd mention it here
20090722 21:17:00< davidhiltonp32> assuming this is known, are there plans to change this behavior?
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20090722 21:17:43< loonycyborg> davidhiltonp32: AFAIK that issue should be fixed on gcc side, not on wesnoth side :)
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20090722 21:23:49< Ivanovic> davidhiltonp32: ask the gcc dudes to fix their error
20090722 21:24:05< Ivanovic> since this clearly is a problem in gcc since it complains about a standard lib/header
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20090722 21:30:40< davidhiltonp32> testing w/ gcc 4.4.1
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20090722 22:31:10< Crab_> Dragonking: when you'll have time, please see http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/mdf7cab9 and tell what do you think
20090722 22:32:12< Dragonking> Crab_: Ok, when you have time please fix full_move into standing place thing :)
20090722 22:33:08< Crab_> Dragonking: will do. I'll do fixes to ai::actions after I commit my current config work
20090722 22:33:19< Dragonking> Sure, no hurry :)
20090722 22:33:41< shadowmaster> heh, cool. I didn't know you could resume a suspended-to-disk Linux image that was running a different kernel than the one that's booting
20090722 22:34:08< shadowmaster> I accidentally booted a 2.6.30.1 kernel back into 2.6.28.8
20090722 22:34:20-!- kitty_ [n=kitty@wesnoth/artist/kitty] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090722 22:35:08< kitty_> esr: around?
20090722 22:35:41< esr> kitty_: Yes,m and glad you're here.  What's up with the steel-hand glyphs?
20090722 22:35:51< kitty_> have you read my pm?
20090722 22:36:17< kitty_> basically we have a user, furioso, working on a font. but it will take some tine and work.
20090722 22:36:18< esr> No, should I go do that?
20090722 22:36:25< esr> Ah.
20090722 22:37:21< Dragonking> Crab_: Looks good
20090722 22:37:22< kitty_> the glyphs alone without kerning and spacing can not produce a acceptable look, but i look forward to what he is able to come up with
20090722 22:37:33< esr> So do I.
20090722 22:38:16< Dragonking> Crab_: Question - what do you mean by "parameters which shall be respected" ?
20090722 22:38:18< esr> Assuming we goi the font route, how difficult is it to add composing letters - you know, like vowel marks in Feanorian?
20090722 22:38:42< Dragonking> Crab_: In case of formula AI you just would have access to it, and could use it, but no way to guarantee it will be respected
20090722 22:39:01< Crab_> Dragonking: the main thing that I want to solve - is to give scenario creators some guarantees such as 'oh, this parameters will be respected by all ai parts, both by c++ and by *mainline* formula ai parts'
20090722 22:39:01< kitty_> esr: if you have time, I started to fool around with some concepts for elvish, drake and merfolk scripts here: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=26295 I'd be grateful for alll kinds of comments!
20090722 22:39:29 * esr looks...
20090722 22:39:37< Dragonking> Crab_: Ok
20090722 22:39:45< Dragonking> Crab_: That's what I thought as well
20090722 22:40:22< Crab_> Dragonking: of course,  user-made formulas can try to ignore it, through in a few cases it can be enforced (for example, enforcing [avoid] is possible via 'just disallowing' all moves that violate it :) )
20090722 22:40:39< esr> kitty_: I like your Elvish.
20090722 22:40:40< Dragonking> :)
20090722 22:40:46< kitty_> :)
20090722 22:41:11< grzywacz> :)
20090722 22:41:25< Crab_> Dragonking: also note that I want to expose all composite ai parts to fai, through I'm not yet sure about the best syntax for it
20090722 22:42:15< Dragonking> Crab_: It could be just treated as AI variables
20090722 22:42:51< Crab_> Dragonking: to allow something like   "  stages['candidate_action_evaluation_loop].candidate_action['new_recruitment'].set_parameter('aaa','bbb')  "
20090722 22:43:05< esr> kitty_: I think /v/ ought to be your /f/ with the voicing stroke you use on some other lettters, with the current v/w reserved for /w/
20090722 22:43:47< Crab_> s/p\]/p'\]
20090722 22:44:07< kitty_> ok, will change that
20090722 22:44:33< esr> kitty: What phoname is the h with hook top to the left of h supposed to represent?
20090722 22:45:11< Blarumyrran> Has lordbob been told to replace the mesopotamian script on paladins portrait with the new loyalist script?
20090722 22:45:22< Sapient> kitty: I love the new mermaid art
20090722 22:46:02< Sapient> the diviner looks divine
20090722 22:46:05< Dragonking> Crab_: We may need new function(s) for that like set_paramterers or something.. but I'm not sure about good solution atm
20090722 22:47:17< kitty_> esr:  ɦ:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_glottal_fricative
20090722 22:47:32< kitty_> sapinet: thanks :)
20090722 22:48:31< kitty_> Blarumyrran: no, we use cuneiform-like forms on most of the human magic-users. cuneiform was the base of the mundane steel hand script
20090722 22:49:01< Blarumyrran> kk
20090722 22:49:51< esr> kitty_: I don't think that sound presently occurs in the Wesnoth Elvish corpus, which has a phonology much like Sindarin.  Did you have a particular reason for including it?
20090722 22:51:13< kitty_> oh, no I'm currenly just trying to get a basic grip on phonology - if you say it's not needed I'm fine with dropping it.  I'd use its glyph for the normal h instead in that case.
20090722 22:51:44< esr> I don't think it's going to be needed.  Not for our Elvish.
20090722 22:52:07< kitty_> then it will go
20090722 22:52:20< esr> Actually, Wesnoth Elvish seems to have a simpler phonology than Wesnothian.
20090722 22:52:45< esr> I'm going by the lists on names.
20090722 22:52:50< kitty_> i think somebody asked for a j - is that necessry?
20090722 22:52:55< esr> a/on names/of names/
20090722 22:52:59< Crab_> Dragonking: also note that, after some discussions, there's an idea of having an ai config in a way similar to http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m2b186d7b
20090722 22:53:12< esr> For Elvish?  Hmmmm.....
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20090722 22:54:00< esr> Probably not.  But the Elves would have one anyway so they could render names from languages that have /j/.
20090722 22:54:51< kitty_> ok
20090722 22:59:42< Dragonking> Crab_: Yes, I sort of followed that discuassion :)
20090722 23:00:14< Crab_> I'm coding this atm, so if there's any suggestions/objections/hints - they're welcome
20090722 23:00:31< kitty_> esr:  i just started to apply your suggestions and have a problem with the f/v/w proposal. what is the "voicing stroke" you mentioned?
20090722 23:01:26< esr> You have a couple of pairs where the voiced-unvoiced distinction seems to be conveyed by a thin horizontal stroke at midline.
20090722 23:02:07< Dragonking> Crab_: Would it be possible to define AI like we do it now? For example with formula AI move= formula, RCA for formula, etc?
20090722 23:02:30< esr> kitty_: k/g for example.
20090722 23:02:36< kitty_> ah! thanks! that means the f needs such a stroke, right?
20090722 23:03:00< esr> Exactly.
20090722 23:03:14< esr> No, the /v/ does.  Sorry.
20090722 23:03:29< esr> The/v/ is the voiced member of that pair.
20090722 23:03:51< Crab_> Dragonking: in the proposed ideology, each ai part is responsible with serializing/deserializing itself from config (deserialization via 'const config&' constructor arg, serialization via 'public config to_config()' )
20090722 23:04:54< Crab_> Dragonking: also, current ai config is supposed to 'just work' (it'll be translated to new-style)
20090722 23:05:10< Dragonking> ok
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20090722 23:06:33< kitty_> esr: incorporated your changes plus new f and j glyphs: http://imagebin.ca/img/KgpjS6-c.jpg
20090722 23:06:43< esr> Looking...
20090722 23:07:29< esr> kitty: You are a goddess of art.
20090722 23:07:40 * kitty_ blushes
20090722 23:08:02< kitty_> on to the drake script?
20090722 23:08:55< esr> *Very* nice.  We may need to add a few glyphs as my model of Elvish pghonology improves, but that will be at most ma minor modification. 
20090722 23:09:30< kitty_> coming up with elvish glyphs along those lines is easy - just let me know
20090722 23:09:52< esr> Hrm,. now I think about it you may want to swap the /t/ and /d/ glyphs.  Do you see why?
20090722 23:10:29< Crab_> Dragonking: for example, see  http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m1620d45c - if you write ai config as the example (1), it will be understood as the example (2)
20090722 23:10:29< kitty_> elvish or drake?
20090722 23:10:36< esr> Elvish.
20090722 23:10:57< esr> Your /t/ has the voicing stroke in that pair, which is backwards.
20090722 23:11:24< kitty_> but still keep the b and t similar and the t and d?
20090722 23:12:06< esr> I assume you meant /p/ and /b/...yes.
20090722 23:12:37< esr> These are minor tweaks.  The script as a whole is awesome.
20090722 23:12:46 * esr tosses Kitty a rose
20090722 23:12:51< kitty_> so swap /p/ and /b/ with /t/ and /d/?
20090722 23:13:04< kitty_> but tweaking those details is still important!
20090722 23:13:23< esr> No, I'm saying swap /t/ and /d/.  The /p/ and /b/ pair is fine as is.
20090722 23:14:18< kitty_> oh, now i see.
20090722 23:14:52< esr> See, that puts the voicing stroke on the /d/, which is the voiced member of that pair.
20090722 23:15:12< esr> Yoour voicing stroke is a very clever invention.
20090722 23:15:57< kitty_> and started completely by accident :P
20090722 23:16:09< esr> Inventions often do.
20090722 23:19:12< esr> And when I say "awesome" take that aas a compliment from someone who has looked at literally hundreds of historical and fantasy writing systems.  This one can stand with the best.  It's a better desigbn than steel-hand, which was pretty damn good. 
20090722 23:19:59< kitty_> i always have the feeling that it is too near to tengwar with those roundish base forms and important descenders...
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20090722 23:21:36< esr> It's not as mathematically composed as Tengwar.  I think you' got enough distance.  (I know the Tengwar very well; taufght myself to write in it at one time..  I bet this doesn't surprise you...)
20090722 23:22:31< kitty_> yes, it still is the starting point if you start to look into fantasy scripts, i suppose...
20090722 23:23:05< esr> It got me interested in phonology.
20090722 23:23:31< esr> And is why I ended up studying historical writing systems un some depth.
20090722 23:23:50< kitty_> good for us now :D
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20090722 23:26:11< Chusslove> esr: And you were writing in Tengwar in which language?
20090722 23:26:12< esr> kitty: I've said before, it's all Tolkien's faultthat I'm equipped to be Mr. World-Continuity Guy.  Well, some SF writers had a bit to do with it too, I suppose.
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20090722 23:26:55< kitty_> yeah, my mother read lotr to me when i was three - and i never got away from it ;)
20090722 23:27:28< esr> Chusslove: I used a variant of the mode for Westron to writte English.  I know some Elvish vocabulary - enough to catcxh lines of dialog in the LOTR movies that weren't subitled - but I never wrote Elvish in it.
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20090722 23:30:23< Chusslove> esr: As I'm googling, it appears Tengwar mode is dubbing English spelling, not pronunciation.
20090722 23:30:27< Chusslove> Is that so?
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20090722 23:31:12< Chusslove> I.e did you use 26 or 40+ letters when writing Tengwar? :)
20090722 23:32:09< esr> It depends.  There are several different ways you could render English in Tengwar; I tended to do it phonetically, while Tolkien (oddly enough used a sort of cipher thatr even preserved the c-k distinction.
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20090722 23:37:01< Chusslove> Asking because it makes me slightly uncomfortable when an alphabet is changed, only to do 1-1 transliteration. Kinda hollow.
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20090722 23:49:02< esr> Chusslove: I agree with you.  You'll note that the phonetic binding I invented for steel-hand does not do that.
20090722 23:49:52< esr> Gotta go, folks.  Off to pick up my new pistol, yay!
20090722 23:50:13< esr> (The better to shoot Iranian assassins with :-) )
20090722 23:51:09< Turuk> Scary
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--- Log closed Thu Jul 23 00:00:25 2009