--- Log opened Thu Jul 23 00:00:25 2009
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20090723 00:06:13< Crab_> hi boucman. when you'll have time, please see http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/mdf7cab9 and tell what you think
20090723 00:06:28< boucman> ok, i'll look right away
20090723 00:07:04< Crab_> the main thing that I want to solve - is to give scenario creators some guarantees such as 'oh, this parameters will be respected by all ai parts, both by c++ and by *mainline* formula ai parts'
20090723 00:12:39< boucman> Crab_: I don't agree on all your parameters
20090723 00:12:58< Crab_> boucman: this is expected :) 
20090723 00:13:31< boucman> some parameters could be generalized (1a) but are here more to improve the default AI that would make abad choices otherwise rather than "force a scenario specific strategy" on the AI
20090723 00:13:40< boucman> if you see the philosophical difference...
20090723 00:14:06< boucman> typical example is recruitement_pattern
20090723 00:15:12< boucman> OTOH some aspects you mark as local (mainly the ones defining goals) should be moved to 1b
20090723 00:15:34< boucman> since these are parameters we really want AI to respect so scenario designers can use them...
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20090723 00:16:04< Crab_> boucman: yes, I understand. but, with recruitment_pattern, I was looking from utilitarian perspective - 'if it is easy to make all parts of the ai, including fai, respect that parameter, and if that parameter has a *well-defined* overall effect on the ai, let's make it global to allow to tinker with it'
20090723 00:16:27< boucman> overall, the choice you made is more based on how possible it is to "force" an aspect on an ai perception, rather than the meaning of the parameter
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20090723 00:17:04< boucman> yes, I see how you built that list, but I disagree :)
20090723 00:17:17< Crab_> boucman: and about the ones defining goals, I agree that making 'goals' available is a good thing. but - how ?
20090723 00:17:32< boucman> recruitement pattern is here because the default AI doesn't know how to recruit, not because it makes sense to do recruitement patterns
20090723 00:17:35< Crab_> boucman: basically, how do we make formula ai respect those goals ?
20090723 00:18:00< boucman> we ask Dragonking to do it :P
20090723 00:18:22< boucman> more seriously, we can't "force" it the way we can force avoided location with the movement map
20090723 00:18:33< Crab_> boucman: since advertising 'ai goals' would be not that useful if fai ignores them :)
20090723 00:18:53< Crab_> we can 'force' it by designing mainline fai scripts to respect that goals somehow...
20090723 00:19:41< boucman> Crab_: yes, I agree with you.
20090723 00:19:54< boucman> but here is how I see things from a philosophical PoV
20090723 00:20:10< boucman> let's take the example of goals
20090723 00:20:24< boucman> 1) we can't easily force goals on all AIs
20090723 00:20:49< boucman> 2) however goals are probably the things that map designers want to specify the most on an AI
20090723 00:21:20< boucman> 3) thus we can't afford to have it AI dependant, we need to have it as (1) (a or b, most likely b) in your classification
20090723 00:21:37< Dragonking> We can't expect that Idle AI will respect goals. Maybe, beside passible leader one. ;p
20090723 00:21:44< Crab_> boucman: I disagree with 3
20090723 00:21:55< Dragonking> passsive'
20090723 00:22:22< boucman> 4) so we do what is second best to forcing it on the AI : we do a stricly defined API for mapmakers to talk to AI in a well defined way, and hope that it's respected
20090723 00:22:27< boucman> Crab_: why is that ?
20090723 00:23:47< Crab_> example: imagine a candidate action evaluator which assigns a 'goal score' to other candidate actions depending on 'how their proposed actions relate to overall goals'.  "goals" will be a local parameters of a said evaluator. but, this evaluator will be able to affect, in ai-independent way, other parts of the ai.
20090723 00:24:35< boucman> Crab_: ok, i'm not sure what part of my 3) you're disagreeing with...
20090723 00:25:24< Crab_> I disagree with "we need to have it as (1) (a or b, most likely b) in your classification"  - we can have an ai-independent thing with (2), too.
20090723 00:25:45< boucman> 2) local aspects: parameters which make sense only to specific ai/stage/candidate action code
20090723 00:25:56< Crab_> yes
20090723 00:25:58< boucman> for me it means it's AI dependant...
20090723 00:26:05< boucman> or maybe I misunderstood
20090723 00:26:10< Crab_> see my example
20090723 00:27:35< boucman> Crab_: ok, here is how I read your classification, but obviously I misread it...
20090723 00:28:06< boucman> 1a) parameters that we guarentee will be folowed because they are handled as the engine level (i.e we tweak the AI perception to force it)
20090723 00:28:57< boucman> 1b) parameters that we define strictly that are provided to all AI and that all AI should respect as long as it makes sense (but we can't enforce it)
20090723 00:29:28< boucman> 2) parameters specific to a given AI, which is parameterizing that AI specifically and only makes sense for that particular AI
20090723 00:29:35< boucman> so, what did I misread ?
20090723 00:29:56< Crab_> no, you've misread a bit. 
20090723 00:30:53< Crab_> 1a and 1b is 'parameters that we define that are provided to all AI and that all AI should respect as long as it makes sense (but we sometimes can't enforce it, but, still, we try to do so when writing mainline fai code)'
20090723 00:31:42< Crab_> 1a) are parameters which have an easy-to-understand effect,   1b) are those which do not have an easy-to-understand effect
20090723 00:32:09< Crab_> and, with my 2),  you got it right.
20090723 00:32:56< Crab_> (but your classification makes sense, too, it's just different)
20090723 00:33:47< boucman> Crab_: ok, so I still want to move all goal related parameters to 1) and despite the fact that they are easily understand I'm not sure recruitement_pattern belongs to 1
20090723 00:35:11< Crab_> boucman: if we more recruitment pattern out of (1), then, if some kind of ai includes 2+ different recruitment implementations which do the same thing, ai creator will need to provide sai recruitment_pattern to both of them (if he wants to)
20090723 00:35:37< Crab_> given that this situation is highly unlikely, I agree that recruitment_pattern can be moved to (2)
20090723 00:36:20< boucman> we could do a "2b" category
20090723 00:36:23< Crab_> and regarding 'move all goal related parameters to 1' - the question is still open : 'how it shall be implemented ?'
20090723 00:36:42< boucman> well defined API that will probably be shared by multiple AI, but we don't guarentee all will
20090723 00:38:27< Crab_> boucman: ok, 'we don't guaranteee it', but, then, another question: 'how will we try to respect this goals, in candidate action evaluation loop' ?
20090723 00:39:01< boucman> afk 2'
20090723 00:40:14< Crab_> since otherwise it's "ok, here's new ai [goal] specification we're made, it allows to give goals to AI. oh,  and our new AI implementation is based on candidate action evaluation loop which, at large, ignores those goals. Happy coding."
20090723 00:42:06< boucman> Crab_: I personally think that it should not be enforced by the engine, we should only proide a defined communication medium and a well defined language
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20090723 00:42:27< Crab_> boucman: I agree about 'should not be enforced' part
20090723 00:42:28< boucman> so, in other word, we should write the candidate action implementation that will respect those goals...
20090723 00:42:44< Crab_> but, how we will write the candidate action implementation that will respect those goals ?
20090723 00:43:24< boucman> just as you described, through evaluators I guess
20090723 00:44:10< Crab_> boucman: but then, if it's through evaluator, that [goal]'s become a local parameter which matters only to evaluator :)
20090723 00:45:13< boucman> no, it also matters for the C++ only default AI since all ai should respect it, and it might also matter to other evaluators
20090723 00:45:46< boucman> as I understood it, 1 means that all AI should respect it, not all stages/rca.... only the AI as a whole
20090723 00:46:23< boucman> the fact that it's implemented through a single evaluator and that technically it is local doesn't matter, from an API point of view it's global
20090723 00:46:53< Crab_> ok, agreed
20090723 00:47:46< Crab_> then, another question, "what is a goal" ?
20090723 00:48:02< boucman> :)
20090723 00:48:16< boucman> that's a tricky question :P
20090723 00:48:31< Crab_> for start, here's http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m2ed746a9
20090723 00:49:00< Crab_> it's WIP, taken partly from from team::target 
20090723 00:49:07< boucman> Crab_: unfortunately I take a plane very early tomorow morning, so can we discuss that on friday, sorry about that
20090723 00:49:27< Crab_> boucman: ok. then only one sentence more about it :)
20090723 00:49:33< boucman> sure
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20090723 00:49:48< boucman> (your pastebin seems like a good direction at first sight btw)
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20090723 00:52:06< Crab_> 'current ai_default targeting phase uses a very ineffective algorithm (on large maps such as that map-with-100-bats)  when selecting 'best moves to best targets' , and another way of matching units with moves-to-targets must be created, otherwise "taking goals into account" will be similarly slow '
20090723 00:52:36< Crab_> ^ that's was one sentence, 'something to think about'.
20090723 00:52:52< boucman> ok, i'll think about it ;)
20090723 00:53:18< Crab_> ok, good luck on your journey then.
20090723 00:53:44< boucman> more seriously, assuming it's true (most likely) we'll probably have to redefine the targetting algorithm, but that's what your testing vs default infrastructure is for
20090723 00:53:49< boucman> thx, g'night
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20090723 01:13:17< davidhiltonp32> fyi: gcc 4.4.1 works compiles wesnoth w/ no modifications
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20090723 03:02:21< corn> Ivanovic: ok, I am not going to address the slowness now, I want to get a working prototype with data being collected to a database from clients and being read by this interface by the end of the week
20090723 03:03:42< corn> I will put all of my project into a cohesive unit and get it ready to be run live in early august
20090723 03:04:50< corn> so UI issues and other unresolved stuff (some refactoring, missing view administration pages, email subscription to graphs, more graphs) will be addressed then
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20090723 09:12:38< euschn> hi
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20090723 09:13:41< YogiHH> hello
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20090723 09:45:51< euschn> hi YogiHH 
20090723 09:48:02< euschn> YogiHH: I just played a bit with the scenariostart save: If we do not clear the starting_pos before this save, it doesnt seem to change anything. story and starting events still play as usual (as they are contained in the starting_pos)
20090723 09:49:07< euschn> which means it would be fine for the scenariostart save to have a replay_start like any other save
20090723 09:49:33< euschn> the only disadvantage I can think of here is that the scenariostart save will have a greater file size :)
20090723 10:01:18< melinath> euschn: does this mean that loading a scenario start file would not reload the scenario cfg file?
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20090723 10:02:50< euschn> melinath: yes. the scenario cfg is already loaded after the end of the previous scenario (and stored in the scenariostart save), though
20090723 10:03:23< euschn> is there a problem with that that I have overlooked?
20090723 10:03:50< Soliton> you can't test scenario changes with such saves anymore then.
20090723 10:04:21< melinath> euschn: exactly what soliton said. It would be very annoying.
20090723 10:04:53< euschn> Soliton, melinath: I see. I will keep it that way then
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20090723 10:09:10< Ivanovic> moin
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20090723 10:54:07< CIA-63> jetryl * r37167 /trunk/data/core/images/units/goblins/ (55 files): Shadow fixes on the spear goblins.
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20090723 10:55:10< CIA-63> jetryl * r37168 /branches/1.6/data/core/images/units/goblins/ (55 files): Shadow fixes on the spear goblins.
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20090723 10:59:01< YogiHH> Soliton: Did you experience the empty-filename-autosave problem lately (say during the last week)? I played some mp and a campaign and couldn't reproduce it.
20090723 11:00:14< Soliton> YogiHH: nope. played some campaigns and it didn't happen, i think.
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20090723 11:19:09< CIA-63> jetryl * r37169 /branches/1.6/data/core/images/units/undead/ (66 files): Shadow fixes on the zombies.
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20090723 11:19:49< CIA-63> jetryl * r37170 /trunk/data/core/images/units/undead/ (66 files): Shadow fixes on the zombies.
20090723 11:21:13< CIA-63> jetryl * r37171 /trunk/data/core/images/units/undead/ (14 files): Added frames for a bat variant of the soulless.
20090723 11:21:39< CIA-63> jetryl * r37172 /branches/1.6/data/core/images/units/undead/ (14 files): Added frames for a bat variant of the soulless.
20090723 11:26:13< CIA-63> jetryl * r37173 /trunk/data/core/units/undead/Corpse_Soulless.cfg: Added frames for a bat variant of the soulless.
20090723 11:31:06< CIA-63> jetryl * r37174 /branches/1.6/data/core/units/undead/Corpse_Soulless.cfg: Added frames for a bat variant of the soulless.
20090723 11:31:53< CIA-63> jetryl * r37175 /trunk/data/core/units/undead/Corpse_Soulless.cfg: Fixed some slightly overdone find-and-replace done in the previous commit.
20090723 11:44:14< CIA-63> ivanovic * r37176 /trunk/ (6 files in 5 dirs): updated Estonian translation
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20090723 11:59:51< CIA-63> jetryl * r37177 /trunk/data/core/about.cfg: Updated credits.
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20090723 12:15:45< CIA-63> jetryl * r37178 /branches/1.6/data/core/images/units/undead/ (14 files): Reverted addition of new frames (breaking backwards-compatibility) to 1.6.
20090723 12:17:46< CIA-63> jetryl * r37179 /branches/1.6/data/core/units/undead/Corpse_Soulless.cfg: Reverted addition of new frames (breaking backwards-compatibility) to 1.6.
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20090723 12:22:27< CIA-63> jetryl * r37180 /trunk/data/core/about.cfg: Updated the credits.
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20090723 12:29:45< kimrhh> are the released source builds supposed to enforce -Werror ?
20090723 12:30:04-!- Turuk_ [n=Turuk@wesnoth/forumsith/turuk] has quit [Connection timed out]
20090723 12:34:29< kimrhh> for the autotools build that is
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20090723 12:38:32< Soliton> not sure what you mean with enforced but that's the default, yes.
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20090723 13:07:30< kimrhh> Soliton: ok, well it's not enforced with the cmake build it seems
20090723 13:08:11< loonycyborg> In scons it isn't enforced by default either.
20090723 13:09:44< kimrhh> Soliton: would you guys take a patch to disable it in your releases?
20090723 13:10:13< kimrhh> the stable ones that is
20090723 13:10:27< loonycyborg> It's much easier to pass --disable-strict-compilation than to apply a patch.
20090723 13:11:26< kimrhh> loonycyborg: point taken
20090723 13:11:28< kimrhh> :)
20090723 13:32:00< allefant_> Soliton: found the bug report (yes, my reply is a bit delayed :P)
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20090723 13:45:27< euschn> hm, there seems to be a problem with rng in replays in trunk: I get a "Random number mismatch" error for virtually every action
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20090723 13:55:41< CIA-63> soliton * r37181 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/units/Kaleh.cfg: allow Kaleh to choose sword2 as a fighter
20090723 13:56:57< Ivanovic> uhm, in cmake this is enfoced by now, too
20090723 13:56:59< Ivanovic> at least in trunk
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20090723 14:08:32< CIA-63> jetryl * r37182 /trunk/data/core/ (5 files in 2 dirs): Added a death animation to the mounted walking corpse.
20090723 14:11:14< CIA-63> jetryl * r37183 /trunk/data/core/images/units/undead/ (zombie-mounted-die-1.png zombie-mounted-die-2.png): Added a death animation to the mounted walking corpse.
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20090723 15:10:01< Soliton> the advance event to remove dehydration overlays in utbs:2 is messed up: http://nopaste.com/p/aMDIBZvzqb
20090723 15:10:51< zookeeper> great -.-
20090723 15:11:16< Soliton> i think it worked fine some times.. not sure though.
20090723 15:11:32< Soliton> it also crashed wesnoth another time.
20090723 15:12:33< zookeeper> firing advance event at 18,26
20090723 15:12:38< zookeeper> auto-storing $unit at (17,25)
20090723 15:12:40< zookeeper> ?
20090723 15:13:12< zookeeper> anyway, i don't see what'd be messed up in that event
20090723 15:13:57< Soliton> "scoped_wml_variable: var_name "unit" has been reverted.
20090723 15:14:28< zookeeper> what the heck does that mean?
20090723 15:14:35< Soliton> good question.
20090723 15:14:45< zookeeper> indeed ;)
20090723 15:14:57< Soliton> but that seems to prevent proper unstoring.
20090723 15:15:23< zookeeper> probably something to do with advance events in general?
20090723 15:15:33< zookeeper> those seem to be a common place for bugs to occur
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20090723 15:24:07< Soliton> wouldn't a post advance event be more fitting anyway?
20090723 15:26:11< zookeeper> maybe
20090723 15:26:16< Soliton> hmm, the event accesses $unit after it was unstored?
20090723 15:26:27< zookeeper> unstoring shouldn't affect that
20090723 15:26:57< zookeeper> although maybe moving the [remove_unit_overlay] to be the first thing executed in that event would be worth a try
20090723 15:28:11< Soliton> from the log it looks to me like that is the problem.
20090723 15:28:37< Soliton> remove_unit_overlay is handled and there $unit goes out of scope for some reason.
20090723 15:29:14< zookeeper> strange
20090723 15:29:23< zookeeper> well, i'm sure sapient would know what the problem is exactly
20090723 15:29:45< Soliton> yeah.
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20090723 15:38:48< Soliton> if i move the remove_unit_overlay up it works but the overlay is there again after the level up...
20090723 15:39:23 * Soliton changes to post advance event.
20090723 15:40:06< Soliton> same..
20090723 15:40:27< zookeeper> really?
20090723 15:40:34< zookeeper> strange.
20090723 15:40:36< Soliton> remember x,y restore and remove_unit_overlay?
20090723 15:41:14< zookeeper> does not parse
20090723 15:41:27< Soliton> i guess remove_unit_overlay works on the unit that is about to get overwritten.
20090723 15:41:46< Soliton> remember x,y, restore unit and remove_unit_overlay?
20090723 15:41:52< zookeeper> that's why i put it after the unstoring, it should work there
20090723 15:42:53< Soliton> ok, just changing to post advance works.
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20090723 16:03:18< Soliton> elias: the point of the bug is that you should not use fuzzy strings but leave it untranslated.
20090723 16:05:02< elias> ah
20090723 16:05:09< elias> well, it's outside of wmlunits in any case
20090723 16:05:48< elias> uses wmlparser.py
20090723 16:06:08< elias> wmltools.py i mean
20090723 16:06:28< Soliton> yes.
20090723 16:06:46< elias> so i won't touch it :)
20090723 16:07:31< elias> also, are you sure gettext ignores fuzzy strings?
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20090723 16:12:49< Soliton> ok, i thought you worked on that part as well. who should the bug be assigned to?
20090723 16:13:51< Soliton> from what i heard about what can all be considered fuzzy i sure hope it does.
20090723 16:18:19< kimrhh> http://dpaste.com/70435/ <- 1.6.4 build error
20090723 16:18:39< kimrhh> the deps should be fulfilled
20090723 16:18:48< kimrhh> also happens with cmake
20090723 16:19:09< kimrhh> i can't figure out where 'Atom' is supposed to be defined
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20090723 16:25:22< kimrhh> building on linux
20090723 16:25:28< elias> Soliton: hm, let me check
20090723 16:26:15< loonycyborg> kimrhh: Probably Atom is somewhere in X server's headers.
20090723 16:26:43< kimrhh> loonycyborg: aha
20090723 16:29:06< loonycyborg> Probably your SDL isn't compiled with X server support
20090723 16:30:05< kimrhh> loonycyborg: indeed it is not, thank you
20090723 16:48:23< CIA-63> elias * r37184 /trunk/data/tools/wesnoth/wmltools.py: Updated wmltools.Translation class regexps so they exclude fuzzy strings. (fixes bug #13986)
20090723 16:48:27< elias> Soliton: ok, it may be fixed
20090723 16:48:48< elias> forgot how to test wmlunits here so not sure it is
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20090723 17:03:40< stikonas> elias: do you know how often u.w.o is updated?
20090723 17:03:46-!- ettin [n=jorda@wesnoth/developer/ettin] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090723 17:04:21< stikonas> cause it still shows old entries
20090723 17:04:54< elias> once a day most likely
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20090723 17:45:10< AI0867> wesbot: topic
20090723 17:45:31-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 63 bugs, 238 feature requests, 12 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20090723 17:46:57-!- Sapient [n=patrickp@wesnoth/developer/sapient] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090723 17:47:06< Sapient> hi euschn
20090723 17:48:15< euschn> hi Sapient
20090723 17:48:20< Sapient> I noticed you are using config::merge_with in r37164; did you read the notes on that method?
20090723 17:49:02< euschn> do you mean that shared children/keys of the calling object are overwritten?
20090723 17:49:16< zookeeper> hi sapient, you might want to check the logs 2h20m ago
20090723 17:49:57< Sapient> euschn: I mean the notes in config.hpp
20090723 17:54:31< euschn> Sapient: the only note i see for merge_with is "Overwrites this config's values". In r37164, that is intended. or does the note on merge_and_keep() (no merge recursion in to child, ...) apply to merge_with() aswell?
20090723 17:55:11< Sapient> ah, nevermind. I was getting confused 
20090723 17:56:13< euschn> ok
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20090723 18:14:18< Sapient> zookeeper: when auto-stored variables are reverted, that means they go back to the condition they were in before auto-storing
20090723 18:14:54< Sapient> this doesn't have any impact on you unless you are using [fire_event]
20090723 18:16:03< Sapient> any changes you make to $unit variable, for example, in the fired event will be invisible to the event which fired it
20090723 18:17:32< zookeeper> Sapient, great
20090723 18:17:50< zookeeper> Sapient, but presumably there's some bug in that event or its handling in any case
20090723 18:17:57< zookeeper> want a pastebin?
20090723 18:21:38-!- melinath [n=melinath@stud246180.studentenheim.uni-tuebingen.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090723 18:23:43< Sapient> uh... sure
20090723 18:26:03< zookeeper> http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m495f38a1
20090723 18:26:39< zookeeper> (Soliton's explanation of the problem is in the log too)
20090723 18:32:26< Sapient> uh huh
20090723 18:32:38< Sapient> did you try unstoring the unit again after removing the overlay?
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20090723 18:33:35< zookeeper> Sapient, no
20090723 18:33:47< Sapient> my suspicion is that would fix it
20090723 18:33:52< zookeeper> well, i haven't tried any of it myself, but i doubt soliton did either..
20090723 18:34:38< Sapient> hmmm... no on second thought that should not be required
20090723 18:34:58< Sapient> this seems like a flaw in [remove_unit_overlay]
20090723 18:35:32< Sapient> the problem is that it is not removing the overlay, correct?
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20090723 18:36:34< zookeeper> http://nopaste.com/p/aMDIBZvzqb
20090723 18:39:00< Sapient> the only problem I see is "info unit: Generating a trait for unit type  with musthaveonly 1 "
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20090723 18:39:20< Sapient> it looks like someone is trying to unstore an invalid unit variable afterwards
20090723 18:39:46< Sapient> the "revert" occurs after "remove_unit_overlay", as is correct
20090723 18:40:45< Sapient> oh... hang on
20090723 18:40:53< Sapient> I think I know what the problem is
20090723 18:41:26< Sapient> the "advance" event may be fired with a copy of the unit
20090723 18:41:44-!- blarumyrran [n=minaise@81-20-159-197.levira.ee] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090723 18:41:44< Sapient> in other words, it's a dumm unit and modifying it has no consequence
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20090723 18:42:24< Sapient> so instead you should be using post-advance
20090723 18:43:32< zookeeper> hrhm
20090723 18:43:46< zookeeper> that's rather silly, isn't it?
20090723 18:43:58< Sapient> the reason it is fired with a copy of the unit is to prevent undefined behavior caused by WML that modifies or kills the unit as it is advancing
20090723 18:44:21< Sapient> but I'm sure there's a better way to handle that
20090723 18:44:51< Sapient> let me give you an example:
20090723 18:44:55< zookeeper> sounds like it should handle it the same way as prerecruit events do
20090723 18:45:10< Sapient> let's say I am a spearman and I advance
20090723 18:45:18< Sapient> the user selects jevelineer
20090723 18:45:36< Sapient> now the advance event fires before the spearman advances
20090723 18:45:51< Sapient> now the spearman turns into a yeti because of WML
20090723 18:45:58< zookeeper> the advance event should fire before the choice is given if you ask me
20090723 18:46:11< Sapient> now the C++ engine already stored the swordsman it was what you selected
20090723 18:46:21< Sapient> and that is what you get, yeti is gone
20090723 18:46:49< zookeeper> not a problem
20090723 18:47:08< CIA-63> thespaceinvader * r37185 /trunk/ (7 files in 5 dirs): Add and wire new Human Duelist/Master-at-arms portrait, update changelogs, portrait credits.
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20090723 18:47:30< zookeeper> and there wouldn't be any problem i can see if the event would just fire before any advancement stuff is done
20090723 18:48:04< Sapient> maybe that is the best solution but I'm not sure how easy of a change it is'
20090723 18:48:46< zookeeper> unit gets enough xp to level -> fire advance events -> perform levelup for that unit as usual regardless of what just happened to it
20090723 18:49:33< zookeeper> so in your spearman-yeti scenario you'd simply get a yeti who'd AMLA (since that's the only advancement choice for it) immediately after you'd get required xp for your spearman
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20090723 18:50:25< mordante> servus
20090723 18:51:18< CIA-63> thespaceinvader * r37186 /trunk/ (7 files in 5 dirs): Add and wire new Mermaid Enchantress/Siren portrait, update changelogs, portrait credits.
20090723 18:54:48< CIA-63> thespaceinvader * r37187 /trunk/ (7 files in 5 dirs): Add and wire new Mermaid Priestess/Diviner portrait, update changelogs, portrait credits.
20090723 18:56:12< Sapient> zookeeper: even if the yeti doesn't have enough XP to advance?
20090723 18:56:29< zookeeper> good question! i think it'd be nice if it didn't advance then.
20090723 18:56:45< zookeeper> so basically that there'd be another check for required xp right after the advance events have finished
20090723 18:57:18< Sapient> and also a check to see if the unit was killed or moved
20090723 18:57:37< Sapient> if it was moved from that location should it still advance?
20090723 18:58:32< Crab_> zookeeper: plus, what if multiple new units appeared ? (for example, when, instead of advancing, a unit is split into 3)
20090723 19:01:05< Sapient> Crab_: if multiple units have the same "id" in WML there is no guarantee provided on the resulting behavior
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20090723 19:01:22< Sapient> so that is acceptable
20090723 19:01:42< Crab_> and what if a unit earns multiple advancements in a row?
20090723 19:01:58 * Sapient ponders this
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20090723 19:10:05< Soliton> Sapient: (remove_)unit_overlay seems to take a SUF but the wiki mentions only x,y.
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20090723 19:10:48< Soliton> seems to me like it should either be properly inside [filter] or really just take a location.
20090723 19:13:24< Sapient> it should definitely take an SUF
20090723 19:13:41< Sapient> whether or not it should be inside a [filter] is the debatable part
20090723 19:14:02< Soliton> well, either way the wiki should reflect that.
20090723 19:14:08< Sapient> yes
20090723 19:14:26< Soliton> hmm, statistics show i have recalled for 466 gold and recruited for 340.. coincidence?
20090723 19:15:05< Sapient> gtg
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20090723 19:18:29< Soliton> i guess it counts the actual cost of the recalls and not the recall cost.
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20090723 20:10:01< ilor> hi mordante
20090723 20:10:10< mordante> hi ilor 
20090723 20:11:00< ilor> mordante: I've some work done locally so if you don't have anything to do I can dcommit so you can take a look ;)
20090723 20:14:36< Ivanovic> mordante: you saw that some asserts are assigned to you in the tracker?
20090723 20:15:17< Ivanovic> ah, okay, you already commented on them
20090723 20:15:22< Ivanovic> so you have seen them
20090723 20:15:23< Ivanovic> ;)
20090723 20:17:04< mordante> I did
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20090723 20:43:34< mordante> I'm off bye
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20090723 20:52:43< CIA-63> ilor * r37195 /trunk/ (2 files in 2 dirs): reorder playerlist sort buttons, move room close button below the roomlist and conditionally enable it, kill the next room button
20090723 20:52:45< CIA-63> ilor * r37194 /trunk/src/ (gui/dialogs/lobby_main.cpp lobby_data.cpp): more lobby player list update fixes
20090723 20:52:48< CIA-63> ilor * r37190 /trunk/ (12 files in 5 dirs): add a player info dialog that pops up on doubleclick on newlobby's player list. Similar to the old lobby dialog.
20090723 20:52:48< CIA-63> ilor * r37193 /trunk/data/gui/default/window/lobby_main.cfg: new lobby layout tweak
20090723 20:52:48< CIA-63> ilor * r37188 /trunk/src/chat_events.hpp: expose chat_handler::send_command
20090723 20:52:49< CIA-63> ilor * r37189 /trunk/src/ (lobby_data.cpp lobby_data.hpp): add get_game_by_id to lobby_info
20090723 20:52:51< CIA-63> ilor * r37191 /trunk/src/gui/dialogs/lobby_player_info.cpp: fix a warning
20090723 20:52:56< CIA-63> ilor * r37192 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): added code to update the new lobby playerlist when a user is ignored via a /command
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20090723 20:57:25< boucman> hey all
20090723 20:57:33< Crab_> hi boucman
20090723 20:57:55< boucman> wanna continue yesterday's discussion ?
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20090723 20:58:43< Crab_> no, unless you have some ideas to be discussed.
20090723 20:59:26< boucman> IIRC we stoped with something planned for discussion but I don't remember what (goal syntax, maybe)
20090723 21:00:54< Crab_> boucman: we've touched the questions: 1) what is a goal ? 2) how to implement 'candidate actions which take goals/targets into account' 3) how to do assigning units to goals/targets
20090723 21:01:17< Crab_> (3) is not important atm
20090723 21:01:47< boucman> ok
20090723 21:01:50< Crab_> (2) is somewhat important, and (1) important because it may cause ai config syntax changes
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20090723 21:02:08< Crab_> and I'm working on 'ai config parsing' atm
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20090723 21:03:10< silene> hi
20090723 21:03:18< Crab_> hi, silene
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20090723 21:11:22< Crab_> boucman: we can think of goals as 'objectives'. i.e., "giving the AI correct goals should allow it to have a good chance of completing most single-player levels, when the AI plays that level for human side"
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20090723 22:35:33< [Relic]> Hello :)
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20090723 23:01:32< CIA-63> soliton * r37196 /trunk/src/variable.cpp: corrected off-by-1 error in log messages
20090723 23:01:50< CIA-63> soliton * r37197 /trunk/data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/scenarios/05_A_Subterranean_Struggle.cfg: simplified and improved Grimnir's and Zurg's appearance
20090723 23:04:09< boucman> night all
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20090723 23:15:03< kitty___> esr: did you have a chance to look at the drake/saurian/merfolk scripts in the same thread like the elvish one?
20090723 23:16:30< esr> kitty___: I saw your logogram post, but I didn't understand how the system was supposed to work.
20090723 23:16:45< kitty___> are you familiar with mayan?
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20090723 23:18:01< kitty___> basically you have the triangular base form and add the phonetic particles to it. or you have a logogram reperesenting a whole word or concept. or you add phonetic particles to an existing logogram.
20090723 23:18:19< esr> Only to a very limited extent.  I know their logograms were composites with an interesting system of preposition-like modifiers.
20090723 23:18:34< esr> I see the connection.
20090723 23:20:21< kitty___> I'd like feedback mostly on the phontec particles form you obviously. something like: do specific particles miss? do the ones i propose make sense? could they work with the existing drake names? etc
20090723 23:20:49< esr> URL, for the current version, please?
20090723 23:21:11< kitty___> oh, there is only one up to now: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/download/file.php?id=32403&mode=view
20090723 23:23:22< esr> Looking...
20090723 23:23:59< grzywacz> kitty___, I'm sorry, my artistic vocabulary and related critique skills are underdeveloped :-(
20090723 23:24:06< esr> Ah, that's what was throwing me.  I didn't realize the ambiguity in the phonograms was intentional.
20090723 23:24:19< kitty___> no, there was something wrong - thanks for pointing that out :)
20090723 23:25:01< esr> For example, it appears you have only one phonogram for 4 different stop consonants.
20090723 23:25:54< kitty___> esr: yes, at that point I thought ambiguity was interesting and a wy to get around having tons of particles- but perhaps that would be better.
20090723 23:26:44< kitty___> but then we'd need to have around 50, I think
20090723 23:28:21< grzywacz> hmmmm
20090723 23:29:05< esr> I can think of a few ways to cut that down.
20090723 23:29:25< kitty___> just comming up with the shapes wouldn't be a problem, but i don't know if it wouldn't come out equally confusing.
20090723 23:29:48< kitty___> could you write a list again?
20090723 23:29:49< esr> First let me look at the drake names.  I think their phoneme innventory is fairly small.
20090723 23:30:07< kitty___> :)
20090723 23:31:46< esr> OK, hold on, I'm going to compile a phoneme inventory for Drake names.
20090723 23:33:51< grzywacz> kitty___, forgive me for butchering your portrait, but maybe something like this? http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/2040/fighterwarrior02.png
20090723 23:34:20< grzywacz> kitty___, I moved the right eyelid one pixel to the left at this scale... 
20090723 23:35:11< kitty___> grzywacz: I hardy see the difference  :( his right or our right eyelid?
20090723 23:35:19< grzywacz> our right
20090723 23:36:07< kitty___> i can do that in the next version but i honestly don't see it as an betterment. hmm.
20090723 23:37:13< grzywacz> One more try to convey what bothers me and I give up: http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/7379/dirj.png
20090723 23:37:34< grzywacz> Basically the direction he seems to be looking in... Or maybe it's just me. :)
20090723 23:38:01< blarumyrran> I think you are missing the dark-grey part of his right eye
20090723 23:38:04< blarumyrran> left*
20090723 23:38:19< grzywacz> kitty___, if you alternate between both my pngs you should see the difference. 
20090723 23:38:49< kitty___> grzywacz: oh, i see the difference now, I'm just not sure if your version is really better...
20090723 23:39:10< grzywacz> kitty___, neither am I! Just letting you know I find it strange. :(
20090723 23:39:54< grzywacz> Maybe it's related to what blarumyrran wrote ^
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20090723 23:40:57< kitty___> i think it has to do wth the highlight on the iris, prhaps one is slightly too big. i'll look at again tomorrow with fresk eyes
20090723 23:41:14< kitty___> *fresh
20090723 23:44:44< esr> kitty: the phoneme inventory of Drake names is indeed small; 7 vowels, 17 consonents.
20090723 23:45:01< kitty___> 24 sounds good!
20090723 23:45:17< kitty___> do you have a list somewhere?
20090723 23:45:22< esr> Yes, and I think I can cut that down a little.
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--- Log closed Fri Jul 24 00:00:34 2009