--- Log opened Sat Jul 25 00:00:43 2009
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20090725 00:08:57< CIA-62> crab * r37222 /branches/1.6/src/unit_map.cpp: backport of r37221 to branches/1.6, to prevent bugs like bug #14014
20090725 00:09:15-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 65 bugs, 238 feature requests, 12 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
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20090725 00:23:30< Soliton> esr: i suggest increasing the number of turns on hard for thot:7. the enemy has 40 base income killing him in 20 turns is not realistic unless maybe if you come into the scenario with a lot of gold and push hard. i don't see a reason for the rush either.
20090725 00:24:21< esr> Soliton: I'll look at it tonight.
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20090725 01:36:58< [Relic]> Hello :)
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20090725 04:59:25< shadowmaster> managed to come up with a rather decent effect for the pango story screens
20090725 04:59:44< shadowmaster> Now working on the included pack of features and stomping new bugs before committing.
20090725 05:02:19< CIA-62> shadowmaster * r37223 /trunk/src/sdl_utils.hpp: Fix a doxygen comment.
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20090725 07:20:20< Patterner> Moin moin. Is it normal that Konrad is totally alone at the beginning of "Scepter of Fire" (1.7.2)?
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20090725 09:42:05< boucman> morning all
20090725 09:45:11< Blueblaze> hey boucman
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20090725 10:13:17< CIA-62> jetryl * r37224 /trunk/data/core/ (50 files in 2 dirs): New graphics for the orcish archer.
20090725 10:14:22 * zookeeper blinks
20090725 10:14:24< zookeeper> _50_?
20090725 10:15:10< Blueblaze> zookeeper: half for 1.6 half for 1.7?
20090725 10:15:20< Blueblaze> Since it is in 2 dirs
20090725 10:15:38< Blueblaze> oh, maybe not because it all is in the trunk
20090725 10:15:39< Blueblaze> :z
20090725 10:15:41< boucman> I didn't know you could commit in multiple branches at once...
20090725 10:15:49< boucman> oh, :)
20090725 10:16:38< Blueblaze> I guess that he committed several directional frames then..
20090725 10:20:21< zookeeper> ah, i'm glad that the old melee anim is gone
20090725 10:20:59< zookeeper> that was the silliest melee anim. 17 frames with very very smooth motion but it was still bad.
20090725 10:22:13< silene> boucman: in fact, you can; that doesn't make it a good idea though ;-)
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20090725 10:37:30< Ivanovic> moin
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20090725 12:12:40< CIA-62> ivanovic * r37225 /trunk/ (changelog players_changelog po/wesnoth-nr/hu.po): updated Hungarian translation
20090725 12:12:42< CIA-62> ivanovic * r37226 /branches/1.6/ (6 files in 5 dirs): updated Hungarian translation
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20090725 12:24:43< Crab_> hi
20090725 12:26:03< boucman> hey Crab_
20090725 12:37:27< Patterner> Is it normal that Konrad is totally alone at the beginning of "Scepter of Fire" (1.7.2 OS X)?
20090725 12:56:45< Soliton> no.
20090725 12:58:48< silene> does anyone know if [end_turn] is used in umc? (it isn't in mainline); i just noticed its implementation is completely broken, and i think it is beyond any hope of repair, so i would like to simply remove this wml tag from trunk
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20090725 13:01:03< silene> AI0867: you seem to be the one who added it; did a campaign designer need it?
20090725 13:04:02< Soliton> invasion from the unknown uses it.
20090725 13:05:02< Soliton> and competitive speedrun.
20090725 13:06:19< Soliton> that's both 1.6, nothing in 1.7 umc uses it so far.
20090725 13:09:06< Soliton> "note that [option] and [text_input] can only be used in moveto events in MP, otherwise they cause OOS" from http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/InterfaceActionsWML can be removed because of https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?10603 yes?
20090725 13:10:46< silene> i'm not sure
20090725 13:15:12< silene> more precisely, it the oos was caused by the turn number not being the same on all the clients when using [option], then yes it should be; but if the oos was for another reason, then i doubt it is
20090725 13:18:01< Soliton> afaiui the problem was that the events were executed at the same time on all clients so others could not take the actual chosen option into account.
20090725 13:23:24< silene> this is still true i guess, isn't it?
20090725 13:25:01< silene> Soliton: in which file did you find end_turn for iftu? i can't find it
20090725 13:25:26< Soliton> Invasion_from_the_Unknown/scenarios/07_The_Elf_and_Goliath.cfg
20090725 13:28:05< silene> thanks, seems like i had an outdated version
20090725 13:32:00< CIA-62> thespaceinvader * r37227 /trunk/ (7 files in 5 dirs): Add and wire new Merman Fighter/Warrior portrait, update changelogs, portrait credits.
20090725 13:38:59< silene> for competitive speedrun, the end_turn tag should be an end_level one, so it isn't an issue; for iftu, this is a bit more annoying, but it can be worked around in the wml code (if necessary, which i'm not even sure it is)
20090725 13:41:38< zookeeper> [end_turn] was also used in brotherhood of light, the only reason i removed it IIRC was that it caused OOS
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20090725 14:39:27< cib0> hm, how did the lua-WML project turn out?
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20090725 14:56:56< silene> cib0: it's in 1.7 (was that your question?)
20090725 14:58:26< cib0> silene, yup
20090725 14:58:40< cib0> silene, alright
20090725 14:58:51< cib0> is there any documentation?
20090725 15:00:10< silene> cib0: http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/LuaWML ; it's a bit terse, so don't hesitate to ask if you have any question
20090725 15:15:25< Patterner> http://dymer.de/HttT-The_Scepter_of_Fire.gz <- broken
20090725 15:15:37< Crab_> boucman: ok, I found another change that must be done to make it all work, it'll take an additional day to do it. 
20090725 15:15:40< Crab_> boucman: Nevertheless, WIP can be seen here - ftp://ftp.terraninfo.net/wesnoth/2009july25.aicfg.diff.zip in the WIP, ai configs /aspects don't work yet, but translation of 'old-style config' to 'new-style config in src/ai/configuration.cpp' is ready and (seems) to work ok.
20090725 15:18:22< Crab_> it can be reviewed by launching ./wesnoth --log-debug=ai/config -d  , and launching either a mp game, either a campaign game, and watching the debug output in the log.
20090725 15:27:32< cib0> silene: amazing, if used correctly, that can improve complex scenarios a lot
20090725 15:27:51< cib0> have any "real" scenarios been made using it?
20090725 15:34:15< silene> cib0: not yet (except for the tutorial which i remade as a proof of concept); i intend to rewrite the 2p multiplayer scenario Dark Forecast since it contains quite a few bug and the current wml is just awfully huge
20090725 15:36:04< boucman> Crab_: looking...
20090725 15:37:09< Crab_> basically, I wanted to do the following: "if ai is old-style ai, then rewrite parameters as aspects, and change old ai to a 'stage which fallbacks to old ai'
20090725 15:37:32< Crab_> the entry point is configuration::parse_side_config
20090725 15:37:36< cib0> silene: good idea, it's one of the more complex mainline scenarios
20090725 15:38:22< boucman> Crab_: is that against latest svn ?
20090725 15:38:38< Crab_> against yesterday's svn
20090725 15:38:41< boucman> ok
20090725 15:39:41< Crab_> boucman: parse_side_config gets a config with several [ai] childs. some of them may come from scenario config, some - from era faction config, some - from ai config file
20090725 15:41:25< cib0> silene: it's funny, today morning i woke up and thought "damn, those WML manipulation tags i made years ago, i never made a guide on how to use them to reduce loading time!" and then i remembered that an even better way to do that had been in the makings
20090725 15:41:31< zookeeper> Crab_, you should tag dev-only features in the wiki with {{DevFeature}} (usually between the key and its description)
20090725 15:41:53< zookeeper> also i'm not sure what the point of all that = stuff on the AIWML page is, it's not used anywhere else...not that it matters much.
20090725 15:42:25< Crab_> zookeeper: you're talking about some specific place in the wiki ? (I'm talking about code atm)
20090725 15:43:08< zookeeper> Crab_, i'm talking about http://www.wesnoth.org/mw/index.php?title=AiWML&diff=31374&oldid=31350 , not related to whatever you were talking about
20090725 15:43:22< Crab_> zookeeper: it is not a devfeature.
20090725 15:43:28< zookeeper> oh, cool
20090725 15:43:36< zookeeper> just something that was undocumented before?
20090725 15:43:39< Crab_> zookeeper: it was present for a long time, it's just was not documented.
20090725 15:44:03< Crab_> boucman: there's two main variants 'old-style ai config', and 'new-style ai config'. new-style has a "version" attribute (which will be added to data/ai/ais/*.cfg files when they will be rewritten)
20090725 15:44:06< zookeeper> interesting, i've never known about that key
20090725 15:45:20< Crab_> zookeeper: judging from a comment there, I'd say that setting this key to 'yes' doesn't produce good results :)
20090725 15:46:21< Crab_> boucman: for simplification, I adopted the approach that 'every top-level ai is a composite ai, but it may fallback to other AIs'
20090725 15:47:13< boucman> is that hardcoded or temporary ?
20090725 15:48:01< Crab_> boucman: it can be changed, but it simplifies things a lot, so I think that it will be permanent. after all, a composite AI just does 'for each stage, play it'
20090725 15:48:20< boucman> ok
20090725 15:48:27< Crab_> so, when parsing old-style ai X, I just do the translation to 'composite AI which has one stage which fallbacks to X'
20090725 15:48:30< boucman> i'm fine with that... 
20090725 15:55:02< Crab_> also, I'll separate stages/aspects/engines/goals from composite_ai, to solve some issues with AI components dependency graph (doing it atm). thus, the initialization order will be like http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m4b9e7f60
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20090725 15:59:10< Crab_> boucman: this will require splitting formula_ai into two parts, as well ('engine' part) and 'ai' part (but, for now, it will be done by leaving it as 1 class but splitting initialization into two pieces)
20090725 15:59:53< boucman> Crab_: at that point I still havn't read enough of your changes to understand all that, working on it...
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20090725 16:03:17< Crab_> boucman: it's better to start with understanding the issues with initialization order. previously, ai parameters were written directly in a config, and they were written as 'values' (with attached filters such as 'time_of_day'). I introduced the concept of aspects (def: 'Aspect is a value calculated by user-defined function, with specified invalidation rules. It is used to provide parameters which affect the entire ai.')
20090725 16:05:33< Crab_> boucman: then, the following point arose: I want to allow writing the aspect as a component, both as c++ or fai code, then I need to have a fai engine initialized when aspects are parsed. at present, fai engine delegates to formula_ai, which, at initialization of its formulas, may use the values of aspects.
20090725 16:05:50< Crab_> thus, I need both formula_ai before aspects, and aspects before formula_ai
20090725 16:06:32< Crab_> this is a loop, which is caused by the fact that formula_ai is now used both as 'ai-related formula interpreter' and as 'ai'
20090725 16:08:41< Crab_> so, to resolve this, engine and 'that-part-of-formula_ai-which-is-enough-to-parse aspects', need to be initialized earlier.
20090725 16:08:56< Crab_> thus, some splitting is to be done.
20090725 16:10:50< boucman> and that's the part you just discovered
20090725 16:10:51< boucman> ok
20090725 16:11:54< crimson_penguin> aren't dependency loops fun? :D
20090725 16:11:55< Crab_> boucman: no, that was discovered earlier (around a week ago, so I consulted with DK about 'what to do with fai'). Today I discovered a simular issue with engine/composite_ai_context
20090725 16:11:58< boucman> i see you moved out of team.cpp al ai related stuff...
20090725 16:12:25< Crab_> boucman: yes. I took the pleasure of finally removing that //START OF MESSY CODE part :)
20090725 16:12:42< Crab_> and I moved the default values to WML
20090725 16:12:53< Crab_> ( data/ai/utils/default_config.cfg )
20090725 16:13:41< boucman> Crab_: sounds good, but you forgot to remove related members from team.hpp :P
20090725 16:14:10< Crab_> boucman: which one ?
20090725 16:14:28< boucman> set_time_of_day at least
20090725 16:14:58< boucman> otehr ones seem ok, but that's the first one I looked at ;)
20090725 16:15:32< Crab_> thanks. noted/fixed. I've removed usage of that set_time_of_day, so I haven't noticed that the declaration is still there
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20090725 16:20:34< Crab_> boucman: also, I've done various stuff to make aspects type-safe (this requires a map/if-then-elseif-then-elseif-../switch lookup and a dynamic_cast at construction time)
20090725 16:24:05< Crab_> boucman: the stuff that needs most review is src/ai/configuration.cpp (it's completed now)
20090725 16:24:18< boucman> i'm looking at it right now
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20090725 16:41:51< Crab_> (I'm away, will return later today)
20090725 16:42:11< boucman> ok
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20090725 17:31:36< CIA-62> brunowolff * r37228 /trunk/INSTALL: Fix typo in INSTALL instructions
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20090725 18:09:14-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 65 bugs, 239 feature requests, 12 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20090725 18:12:00< Crab_> boucman: as you've seen, I haven't implemented [modify_ai] yet (it will be done later, after the commit). here's what I think about[modify_ai] wml tag : http://pastebin.mozilla.org/664468
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20090725 19:45:04< AI0867> mordante: pressing escape in the main menu with --new-widgets pops up the credits rather than exiting
20090725 19:50:27< Soliton> it seems randomly generated scenarios lose player info or something. i only have a nameless dwarf fighter in SoF:4 and no recalls.
20090725 19:51:12< Soliton> and the log has several "warning engine: player not found when trying to recall!" messages.
20090725 19:52:58< Ivanovic> AI0867: post a bug report
20090725 19:53:07< Ivanovic> mordante is on holidays for almost two weeks
20090725 20:00:04< stikonas> yeah, I've seen this bug for ages
20090725 20:03:23< stikonas> it has probably been there since the beginning of new widgets
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20090725 20:11:46< AI0867> silene: I added it because of a feature request, someone indeed needed it
20090725 20:13:39< silene> AI0867: do you remember who it was? because there are only two occurrences of it in mainline+umc and one is actually incorrect; so i'm not sure it is worth keeping as it is quite a can of worm
20090725 20:16:13< zookeeper> [end_turn] is a nice thing to have :/ i wonder why exactly it would be causing any problems, sounds like an extremely simple feature
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20090725 20:20:07< silene> unfortunately it is not a simple one; it causes the engine to discard everything it is currently doing, leaving it in a somewhat dubious state
20090725 20:22:02< zookeeper> silene, hmh, right
20090725 20:22:37< zookeeper> it's such a special feature however that it'd be just fine if it just set some flag, finished with the current event(s) and then ended the turn
20090725 20:22:50< zookeeper> instead of trying to do it in the middle of the event
20090725 20:23:42< zookeeper> so basically the turn would end immediately when the player would next be able to press the end turn button, not in the middle of an event or a fight etc
20090725 20:23:54< zookeeper> might that be easier to do?
20090725 20:24:03< silene> yes, definitely easier
20090725 20:25:00< silene> as you guessed, it is precisely because [end_turn] happens in the middle of something that it causes problems; if it is delayed, then everything is fine
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20090725 20:25:38< zookeeper> i'm pretty sure delaying it would be perfectly fine, maybe even the more desirable way
20090725 20:28:10< silene> what about [end_level]? would a similar mechanism be suitable for it? [end_level] behaves better than [end_turn] since its handling is hardcoded in 9 different places of the engine, but i'm sure we missed some places, and someday someone will use it in the event it shouldn't have been used in
20090725 20:28:36< zookeeper> i'm not sure about that. _maybe_
20090725 20:29:04< zookeeper> it's obviously very commonly used, and also in all sorts of strange situations
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20090725 20:35:09< zookeeper> silene, i'm pretty sure that if delaying [endlevel] would cause problems in some current use cases, then those cases could easily be tweaked to accommodate such a change.
20090725 20:35:57< zookeeper> no idea how many there would be, though. probably not that many, but considering it's used usually several times per scenario, there's a lot of cases to go through.
20090725 20:39:06< silene> the only case i can think of where it would make a difference with the current behavior is: several actions are raised for a given event, but the first executed action ends the level, then the other raised actions would still keep going; but it's easy to prevent it if needed (though i'm not sure if we want to prevent it, it could also be seen as a bug)
20090725 20:47:37< zookeeper> well, i think people pretty much always put it as the last thing that's gonna happen in an event
20090725 20:50:49< silene> no, that's not what i meant (i already made this assumption ;-); i was speaking of having several events that are executed at the same time (for instance, all the "moveto" events caused by a single unit move)
20090725 21:00:45< zookeeper> oh, right
20090725 21:01:08< zookeeper> not sure which behaviour would be better there
20090725 21:01:14< zookeeper> which means...make it an option! ;)
20090725 21:04:58< silene> :-)
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20090725 23:00:17< AI0867> silene: it's rather simple to modify [end_turn] to end the turn at the end of handle_event_command(), handle_event_commands() or handle_events()
20090725 23:00:21< AI0867> the question is which one we want
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20090725 23:01:16< silene> none of them, since these functions are called from unsafe contexts, for instance attack::fire_event
20090725 23:10:09< AI0867> meaning we'd have to distribute the checks to every point where fire_event is called?
20090725 23:15:49< Soliton> ilor: http://gna.org/bugs/?14011  maybe accepting the complete path could be made to work reasonably easily?
20090725 23:22:23< ilor> Soliton: the filebrowser is a mess with regards to windows logical volumes
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20090725 23:30:22< Soliton> ilor: and you can't just access a specific path/file when given the complete location? i don't mean being able to browse there.
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20090725 23:31:17< ilor> Soliton: haven't looked at the code, guess there's something there that makes typing c:\foo in the dialog get interpreted as currentdir\c:\foo
20090725 23:36:20< ilor> Soliton: I'm kind of dead tired now after a long day; I'll have a quick look tomorrow
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20090725 23:37:35< Soliton> ilor: no worries, it was just an idea.
20090725 23:46:33< AI0867> we could set play_controller's end_turn_, but that only works on humans
20090725 23:55:52< AI0867> zookeeper: would it be acceptable if [end_turn] only works on human players?
20090725 23:56:12< Crab_> AI0867: who's 'not human' ? ai ?
20090725 23:56:18< AI0867> the ai?
20090725 23:56:46< AI0867> this way would simply end the "respond to player command" loop
20090725 23:56:52< zookeeper> AI0867, good question
20090725 23:56:55< AI0867> but the ai has no such loop
20090725 23:57:13< Crab_> AI0867: well, it's pretty easy to make ai stop its turn
20090725 23:57:29< AI0867> set moves and attacks_left to 0
20090725 23:57:30< AI0867> true
20090725 23:57:50< AI0867> but that wouldn't stop a leader from recruiting
20090725 23:58:04< Crab_> AI0867: no, I was thinking about other ways :)
20090725 23:58:09< AI0867> do tell
20090725 23:58:37< AI0867> would it work for every type of AI?
20090725 23:59:11< Crab_> yes
20090725 23:59:47< Crab_> events can fire only after AI does something (move/recruit/etc)
--- Log closed Sun Jul 26 00:00:23 2009