--- Log opened Wed Jul 29 00:00:42 2009
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20090729 00:31:37< AI0867> Sirp: we have network_boost.[ch]pp files in trunk, they're unused though and I don't know how usable they currently are (also, written by suokko)
20090729 00:32:26< AI0867> it uses boost::asio
20090729 00:36:17< shadowmaster> it looks like a bunch of stubs, not sure
20090729 00:36:48< shadowmaster> as in "well, we have this class, and it can do all this shiny stuff, but for now they are no-ops"
20090729 00:38:59< Ivanovic> AI0867: personally i would vote for some "dead code elemination"
20090729 00:39:03< Ivanovic> ;)
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20090729 01:03:25< Sirp> AI0867: yeah I think we'd be better to start from scratch with asio
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20090729 01:16:46< Ivanovic> Soliton: seeing one of the latest complaints about OOS errors in the forums: have we already improved the message for 1.7.x?
20090729 01:17:20< Ivanovic> as in adding something (maybe in lovely red?) that you should save the game and reload to continue and are strongly discouraged to just continue since it is likely to end in a real PITA
20090729 01:17:37< Ivanovic> plus adding something that users should check that they are using the same versions especially when it comes to addons?
20090729 01:18:21< Ivanovic> (i could imagine that many players might just not understand what "out of sync" really means for their game and just continue on until it breaks really badly)
20090729 01:19:50< Soliton> it's not that easy to give general advice on OOS. reloading will help temporarily but it might just cover up cheating or if the cause isn't fixed will just happen again for example.
20090729 01:20:22< Ivanovic> Soliton: at least we should make clear that this is a *drastic* problem and should not be ignored
20090729 01:20:24< Soliton> then there might also be OOS that is actually harmless.
20090729 01:20:30< Ivanovic> really?
20090729 01:20:35< Ivanovic> which ones for example?
20090729 01:21:24< Soliton> might be as in there were cases. i don't know if there is one at present.
20090729 01:21:42< Soliton> or how you can produce one with dodgy WML.
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20090729 01:22:04< shadowmaster> "*drastic*" heh.
20090729 01:22:32< Ivanovic> from what i have seen so far if the game once is OOS you can't really complete it
20090729 01:22:50< shadowmaster> dodgy WML sounds like something you'd expect in some UMC out there
20090729 01:23:45< shadowmaster> then we receive reports of bugs in UMC that could be solved if they were directed to the authors
20090729 01:23:48< Soliton> well, the message currently says "The game is out of sync, and cannot continue." as the first sentence. that does sound pretty drastic to me (and is obviously untrue ;-)).
20090729 01:25:18< Soliton> for example recruitment OOS don't mean a real problem (yet).
20090729 01:25:44< Ivanovic> uhm, recruitment OOS means different traits, right?
20090729 01:25:49< Ivanovic> different traits mean different stats
20090729 01:25:57< Soliton> if it's because different attack stats and it never attacks or hits anything for example.. ;-P
20090729 01:26:01< Ivanovic> like eg one unit with quick and the other with resilent
20090729 01:26:12< Ivanovic> which makes some difference regarding how much the unit can take
20090729 01:26:15< Soliton> recruitment OOS means some different stat.
20090729 01:26:42< Soliton> never recruit that unit type again problem solved!
20090729 01:27:01< Soliton> anyhow i'm all ears for improvement suggestions to te OOS message.
20090729 01:27:32< Ivanovic> no idea how to really formulate it in a clear way
20090729 01:27:55< Ivanovic> i just have the impression that many players just continue anyway without any idea that it will break
20090729 01:27:56< shadowmaster> last time I saw one in 1.5.x I considered it pretty adequate, but some people just don't read whatever a program throws them into the screen as long as it has one or more buttons I guess
20090729 01:28:12< Ivanovic> hmm
20090729 01:28:23< Ivanovic> okay, so show now button and just freeze the whole game!
20090729 01:28:24< Ivanovic> ;)
20090729 01:28:32< shadowmaster> I recall a more serious work accident caused by that common behavior
20090729 01:29:27< shadowmaster> or spawn random Yetis. To kill all leaders
20090729 01:30:27< shadowmaster> (or maybe, just maybe, a "quit game on OOS" option that is turned on by default?)
20090729 01:32:51< Soliton> there is a quit game button, that should be enough.
20090729 01:34:37< shadowmaster> true, in that case the only option left is to fix people's sense of curiosity or whatever that makes them continue doing stuff even if a big rock is about to fall over them.
20090729 01:35:20 * Soliton kicks CIA-62
20090729 01:35:20< CIA-62> ow
20090729 01:35:28< shadowmaster> there's no "one size fits all" for UI
20090729 01:36:15< Soliton> you mean we should ask for the player's age or so and adjust the UI accordingly?
20090729 01:37:15< shadowmaster> nah, too much work.
20090729 01:39:06 * shadowmaster notices that nobody reads the "How to Report a Bug Properly" topic despite I sticked it in every user's face with the big "Forum rules" block above the Tech Support forum pages
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20090729 01:39:23< Ivanovic> anyway, i am off to bed, n8
20090729 01:39:41< Ivanovic> shadowmaster: it is too far off the rest, looks too much like some ad
20090729 01:39:42< Ivanovic> ;)
20090729 01:39:57< shadowmaster> blame the phpbb devs, not me.
20090729 01:41:35< shadowmaster> phpbb didn't come with a tool for spoonfeeding users
20090729 01:42:24< Soliton> maybe there is a plugin?
20090729 01:42:42< shadowmaster> ohhh, you made me cry now ;(
20090729 01:42:54< Soliton> like a little girl?
20090729 01:43:03< AI0867> Sirp: I'll nuke it then
20090729 01:43:49< shadowmaster> sure, there may be some plugin, but those mean more maintenance problems to solve later on.
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20090729 01:44:51< shadowmaster> because of this extremely tight relation between phpbb's code, and whatever shit you mix with it calling it "plugin". They shouldn't be "plugins", they aren't even plugged!
20090729 01:45:07< Sirp> AI0867: thanks
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20090729 01:46:48< AI0867> shadowmaster: "continuing after OOS results in undefined behaviour"
20090729 01:47:13< AI0867> that not only adequately explains what will happen, but also allows you to indeed spawn yetis and fire dragons to end the game quickly
20090729 01:47:55< shadowmaster> I thought people loved UB
20090729 01:49:30 * AI0867 kicks CIA-62 
20090729 01:49:30< CIA-62> ow
20090729 01:50:20< shadowmaster> it was working fine earlier in #wesnoth-umc-dev, maybe Gna's mailer?
20090729 01:50:37< AI0867> yeah
20090729 01:51:13< Soliton> no, i got commit mails that have not been announced here.
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20090729 05:12:13< corn> what are the most baseline features that I need for a wml parser?
20090729 05:12:50< corn> I am rewriting a server-side upload log parser in python and it sends a simple wml message and I am wondering if I can just cheat and use regex to parse the tags
20090729 05:15:43< corn> oh, excellent
20090729 05:15:47< corn> there is a parser already written
20090729 05:23:52< corn> AI0867: around?
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20090729 08:29:38< euschn> hi
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20090729 08:38:56< corn> hi
20090729 08:39:21< corn> since CIA is broken right now, I'll repeat what I jsut put in the commit log: 
20090729 08:39:25< corn> Python server-side upload script is now live and functional. Note to devs who want to help me test this out: change 
20090729 08:39:44< corn> the host at upload_log.cpp:41 to "cornmander.com" and change upload_log.cpp:42 to "/wesstats/upload" . I still need to add an 
20090729 08:39:44< corn> error page/message for failed uploads.
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20090729 09:05:34< corn> dfranke, boucman (even though he is not here): right now uploaded logs from platforms other than win32 and osx don't send the platform variable in their wml logs. I tried tackling the problem before but since wesnoth is supported on so many platforms and there is no easy way to distinguish them, I want to add a catch-all "undefined" platform for all cases where the platform isn't win32 or osx. is that ok?
20090729 09:06:01< corn> right now I am doing the same thing server-side where the upload log is processed, but I would rather that every log sent has a consistent set of variables
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20090729 09:07:18< corn> actually going to bed now, be back in 4-5 hours
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20090729 09:29:28< YogiHH> hello
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20090729 09:54:45< Crab_> hi
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20090729 10:36:58< Ivanovic> moin
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20090729 11:17:54< Elvenisko> hello
20090729 11:17:55< Jetrel> zookeeper:  directionality in the latest commit I just made on the glider doesn't seem to be working, and I think it's because of the missile frame macro.
20090729 11:18:10< Jetrel> If you can work some magic on that, that'd be nice.
20090729 11:19:02< Elvenisko> just a little question... can i use one of the characters from official campaigns in one scenario of my campaign?
20090729 11:20:00< Elvenisko> lord erlornas from AOI now i mean...
20090729 11:20:58< Jetrel> Jeez, people.  YOU DON'T NEED TO ASK.
20090729 11:21:14< Jetrel> That's, like, half the point of the GPL.
20090729 11:21:43< Elvenisko> i know i know, but i do not want to create a conflist in the history of wesnoth
20090729 11:21:55< Elvenisko> conflict
20090729 11:22:01< Jetrel> It removes all the meta-work of securing permissions, and allows you to actually focus on real work.
20090729 11:22:22< loonycyborg> What does this have to do with GPL? It's not like using a single character automatically makes your work derivative :P
20090729 11:22:28< Elvenisko> creating linux distribution. i know what GPL is :P
20090729 11:22:28< Jetrel> Then you'll have to be much more specific abotu what time it happens.
20090729 11:22:53< Jetrel> Besides the point, I'm not the guy to ask, anyways.
20090729 11:23:08< zookeeper> Jetrel, eh, ok, i'll try to take a look at it sometime soon
20090729 11:24:07< Elvenisko> okay. after AOI (erlornas killed some orcs) a new threat will come, and one of his students fights orcs and undead. in the last scenario, i like to add erlornas army as ally who come to help with orcs etc...
20090729 11:24:11< Jetrel> zookeeper:  I'm also well-aware I don't have a valid anim for n,ne,nw - but that afaik shouldn't matter.
20090729 11:24:31< Jetrel> anyways, I'm out.
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20090729 11:32:36< shadowmaster> shikadibot log head
20090729 11:33:24< shadowmaster> it is a bad sign that I can't even remember how my own bot works.
20090729 11:33:38< shadowmaster> shikadibot: log head
20090729 11:33:39< shikadibot> Revision 37319 (shadowmaster, 2009-07-29 09:27:38 +0000 (Wed, 29 Jul 2009)):
20090729 11:33:43< shikadibot> Appended a newline to an error message so the stderr doesn't get "messy".
20090729 11:33:45< shikadibot> Web interface URL: http://wesnoth-umc-dev.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/wesnoth-umc-dev?view=rev&revision=37319
20090729 11:34:10< shadowmaster> um, sure, CIA's not working properly with Gna yet
20090729 11:39:30-!- olik [n=olik@85-220-71-210.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
20090729 11:47:17< shadowmaster> esr: around?
20090729 11:48:32< shadowmaster> shikadibot: log 37320
20090729 11:48:32< shikadibot> Revision 37320 (shadowmaster, 2009-07-29 09:36:38 +0000 (Wed, 29 Jul 2009)):
20090729 11:48:35< shikadibot> Storyscreens now use Pango for rendering text.
20090729 11:48:38< shikadibot> This makes Pango markup available in storyscreens.
20090729 11:48:40< shikadibot> Web interface URL: http://wesnoth-umc-dev.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/wesnoth-umc-dev?view=rev&revision=37320
20090729 11:48:47< shadowmaster> whatever.
20090729 11:51:02< Elvenisko> 404
20090729 11:51:04-!- grzywacz [n=grzywacz@wesnoth/developer/grzywacz] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090729 11:51:54< grzywacz> hi
20090729 11:52:40-!- Turuk_ [n=Turuk@wesnoth/forumsith/turuk] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090729 11:59:58< Elvenisko> hello
20090729 12:00:10-!- Turuk [n=Turuk@wesnoth/forumsith/turuk] has quit [Connection timed out]
20090729 12:05:09< shadowmaster> Elvenisko: ?
20090729 12:05:39-!- ABCD [n=ABCD@gentoo/contributor/abcd] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090729 12:05:39< shadowmaster> hi grzywacz 
20090729 12:05:56< Elvenisko> what letter from "hello" is unknown to you? :)
20090729 12:06:12< shadowmaster> Elvenisko: I was referring to the 404 (not found) you mentioned
20090729 12:07:14< Elvenisko> aha. that link shows me 404 error
20090729 12:08:10-!- ABCD_ [n=ABCD@gentoo/contributor/abcd] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
20090729 12:08:31< grzywacz> hey shadowmaster 
20090729 12:10:33-!- shikadibot [n=shikadi@wesnoth/umc-dev/bot/shikadibot] has quit ["manual upgrade from S"]
20090729 12:14:19< Elvenisko> grzywacz: can you tell me a good name for a lich? :)
20090729 12:14:39< grzywacz> Elvenisko, Liczydlo
20090729 12:15:17< Elvenisko> you are from poland? :)
20090729 12:16:08< grzywacz> I'm from the Interwebs.
20090729 12:16:24< Elvenisko> i live about 30km from poland :) btw i think that better name that liczydlo can be possible :)
20090729 12:17:09< grzywacz> well, if even you have a proof of existence it doesn't make finding it any easier ;)
20090729 12:17:35< grzywacz> Elvenisko, Slovakia is just over the border from here as well. :P
20090729 12:17:52< grzywacz> "Border", fortunately there's hardly any of it left. :D
20090729 12:17:59< grzywacz> -> #wesnoth if we want to continue
20090729 12:42:20-!- ilor [n=user@wesnoth/developer/ilor] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090729 12:53:06< Soliton> http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=372215#p372215  spam?
20090729 12:58:11< zookeeper> Soliton, of course?
20090729 12:59:17< Soliton> but what's the point?
20090729 13:00:04< zookeeper> eh, no idea. just some trickery with keywords?
20090729 13:00:22< Crab_> Soliton: for example, if spammer posts a second message 'with the answer, pointing to some website' later, it will look like a legit 'question-answer' pair
20090729 13:00:51< zookeeper> now that'd be something i haven't seen before...
20090729 13:01:13< Crab_> and, there's no point in posting both a question and the answer immediately one after another, since it will be suspicious.
20090729 13:01:49< Crab_> so, the 1st message is posted, but second is delayed for 'normal time to get a answer on the forums'
20090729 13:02:21< Soliton> yeah, something like that is what i thought, too. build up some credit with this message.
20090729 13:09:33-!- Elvish_Pillager [n=eli@71-10-231-36.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090729 13:18:34< corn> Crab_: I put up my own log upload server, could you please change your local copy of upload_logs.cpp to read this:
20090729 13:18:57< corn>         const std::string target_host = "cornmander.com";
20090729 13:18:57< corn>         const std::string target_url = "/wesstats/upload";
20090729 13:19:14< corn> just remember not to commit it
20090729 13:19:31< Soliton> is there a problem to set things up on wesnoth.org?
20090729 13:20:10< corn> Soliton: I haven't set up the code to worth on wesnoth.org yet, so yes
20090729 13:20:40< corn> to work on*
20090729 13:21:18< corn> I am also breaking it daily
20090729 13:21:31< corn> so it can't be a drop-in replacement for the current upload script
20090729 13:22:28< Crab_> corn: ok. maybe it's worth an 'undocumented command-line option' (e.g. --test-uploads) ?
20090729 13:23:53< corn> it will switch over the networking info to my server instead of the official log upload server?
20090729 13:24:06< Crab_> corn: yes
20090729 13:24:30< corn> well, that will only work until I start changing the data uploaded in logs
20090729 13:25:35< corn> I am not 100% sure that the production upload script won't break if I use a superset of the wml tags currently used
20090729 13:25:42< Crab_> corn: well, you can keep old upload code, and do something like if (test_uploads_enabled) { do_new_upload(); } else {do_old_upload(); }
20090729 13:26:28< Crab_> corn: or, even simpler, '   if (test_uploads_enabled) { do_new_upload(); } else {do_nothing(); }'
20090729 13:26:34< Soliton> the "production" upload script breaks all the time flooding apache's error.log.
20090729 13:27:33< corn> Crab_: ok, I will put in the flag sometime later today, even though it feels very kludgy
20090729 13:27:38< AI0867> corn: here
20090729 13:27:49< Crab_> corn: basically, simpler variant is : 'disable uploads for trunk, unless it's developer's upload to your staging area'
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20090729 13:28:35< corn> Soliton: my script would not be better yet at this point... a user just needs to pass flawed data and the upload script will fail because of mysql type checking
20090729 13:29:15< corn> AI0867: sorry to bother you, I was going to ask about usage of the python wml parser but I wrote my own little braindead one instead
20090729 13:30:21< Crab_> corn: well, it may be kludgy, but at least it's consistent with '  --new-storyscreens , --new-widgets ', etc. Just name it --new-uploads :)
20090729 13:30:39< corn> ok
20090729 13:31:00< corn> also... you are probably the person to ask regarding doing a lot of unattended test sessions
20090729 13:31:16< corn> I need to generate a lot of log data once I start adding new information to be logged
20090729 13:31:44< corn> so I need to run AI vs AI games
20090729 13:31:59< Crab_> see /utils/ai_test/ai_test.py 
20090729 13:32:14< corn> ok, thanks
20090729 13:32:38< Crab_> there's a bug there that needs fixing/reworking (  outerrlines = p.stderr.readlines() blocks if too much is logged, filling the buffer)
20090729 13:32:59< Crab_> it can be fixed by just 'writing stderr to temporary file, then reading from it after wesnoth exits'
20090729 13:33:37< Crab_> also note that it uses pgsql (but it is easy to change)
20090729 13:33:41< corn> ok
20090729 13:33:53< corn> I will just hack it up to not send data to any database
20090729 13:34:02< Crab_> ok :)
20090729 13:34:13< Crab_> it's config is in /utils/ai_test/ai_test.cfg
20090729 13:34:20< corn> do you know if running with --multiplayer and --nogui produces logs
20090729 13:34:25< corn> I could probably check this in a minute...
20090729 13:34:39< Crab_> corn: there are full arguments in that config
20090729 13:34:47< corn> yep
20090729 13:34:51< corn> I am looking at it now
20090729 13:34:51< Crab_> I use '--log-info=ai/testing --nogui --multiplayer --controller1=ai --controller2=ai'
20090729 13:35:11< Crab_> without --log-info=ai/testing, only errors are logged
20090729 13:35:33< corn> can I run the AI in SP campaigns?
20090729 13:35:46< Elvenisko> sure
20090729 13:36:27< corn> Elvenisko: how would I do that?
20090729 13:37:08< Soliton> i doubt the ai is able to beat any campaign.
20090729 13:37:16< Crab_> corn: I'd say 'no', because the ai cannot simulate human player's behavior atm (with respect to goals/dialogs) :)
20090729 13:37:43< Soliton> you can :droid your side in-game though.
20090729 13:37:47< corn> Soliton: although it would be nice if the AI could beat a campaign, I just need something to generate a lot of log data quickly
20090729 13:38:13< corn> I could just hit two birds with one stone and make logging work with MP matches
20090729 13:38:18< corn> but that is very controversial
20090729 13:39:44< Soliton> depends what you log. those kill maps would be cool for mp.
20090729 13:39:46< Crab_> corn: imo, atm, it's better to test your scripts on multiplayer ai-vs-ai matches, as they can be more easily simulated.
20090729 13:39:51< corn> YES
20090729 13:39:53< corn> yes*
20090729 13:39:58< corn> that is what I am thinking as well
20090729 13:40:14< corn> Soliton: yes, yes they would
20090729 13:40:40< corn> ok, I will add mp logging support today but with a mandatory --logmp command line flag
20090729 13:41:08< Crab_> corn: can you name it to not start with 'log' ?
20090729 13:41:13< corn> sure
20090729 13:41:22< Crab_> corn: such as '--upload-logmp'
20090729 13:41:36< corn> the bigger problem is to figure out how to send logs since there are multiple clients involved
20090729 13:41:37< Crab_> corn: to avoid confusion with 'logging to stderr' system
20090729 13:41:39< corn> each client sends a log?
20090729 13:41:58< corn> and whether or not it is an issue if not all clients have this flag enabled when they run wesnoth
20090729 13:42:27< corn> so if player1 has --upload-logmp and player2 does not, is it still OK to send logs
20090729 13:42:48< Crab_> corn: btw, note yesterday's irclog between boucman and sirp
20090729 13:42:58< corn> regarding asio?
20090729 13:43:18< Crab_> yes. 
20090729 13:43:44< Crab_> we're talking about socket timeouts somewhen ago... 
20090729 13:43:47< corn> yes... it will fix an annoying bug in the upload code, but I am not going to be the one to rewrite it
20090729 13:43:50< corn> yes
20090729 13:44:21< corn> completely rewriting something low level like all of the networking code makes me nervous :)
20090729 13:44:26< Crab_> corn: basically, that means that there will be no need to fix that 'annoying bug in the upload code' on your side.
20090729 13:44:30< corn> yep[
20090729 13:44:49< Crab_> corn: so it can be safely forgotten about :)
20090729 13:48:07< corn> well, the problem will still exist in a less meaningful form
20090729 13:48:41< corn> the wesnoth client window will close but the thread sending upload logs will still be running
20090729 13:48:53< Crab_> corn: but the timeout value can be changed :)
20090729 13:49:15< corn> I am trying to find that in the documentation
20090729 13:49:35< corn> they provide timer classes but I haven't seen an example yet where the timer controls io operations
20090729 13:50:06< corn> ah
20090729 13:50:08< corn> excellent
20090729 13:50:16< corn> http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_37_0/doc/html/boost_asio/example/timeouts/connect_timeout.cpp
20090729 13:51:36< corn> ok, I am going to go now, be back in several hours
20090729 13:51:43< Crab_> good luck
20090729 13:51:49< corn> thx
20090729 13:52:04-!- allefant_ is now known as elias
20090729 14:12:05< Elvenisko> i find an expert for loyalist craction here? :)
20090729 14:12:13< Elvenisko> *can i
20090729 14:17:50< Soliton> no.
20090729 14:19:13< loonycyborg> You forgot to * correct 'craction' :P
20090729 14:21:54< Elvenisko> yeah, sorry :)
20090729 14:22:21< Elvenisko> so... can you play them? :)
20090729 14:22:50< loonycyborg> Yes. Why not?
20090729 14:23:28< Elvenisko> okay. on what terrain can they effectively fight the orcs?
20090729 14:24:29< Soliton> water.
20090729 14:27:37< loonycyborg> Especially if you recruit mermen.
20090729 14:29:00< Elvenisko> sure. thanks
20090729 14:29:10-!- Elvenisko [n=ssssss@ig511.imafex.sk] has quit ["Leaving."]
20090729 14:30:15< euschn> YogiHH, and anyone who is concerned with MP ui: In my attempt to add a difficulty option to mp games, I think the easiest way to add a ui element during mp game creation is to re-use the same dialog that is used for creating campaigns
20090729 14:30:38< euschn> I have added a non-functional dialog to try it out, you can try the diff at http://stud3.tuwien.ac.at/~e0204097/wesnoth/
20090729 14:31:32< euschn> I do not know how the major ui developers feel about this. I kinda like it as it looks the same as the campaign difficulty dialog, bringing sp and mp campaigns closer toether
20090729 14:32:02< euschn> also , the mp create ui is not changed at all if the mp scenario does not have difficulty wml tags
20090729 14:32:40< euschn> to test it, use the MPC_Sandbox campaign which can be found via the link above
20090729 14:34:04-!- loonycyborg [n=sergey@wesnoth/developer/loonycyborg] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net/"]
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20090729 14:34:32< Soliton> you could just post a screenshot.
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20090729 14:38:16< esr> shadowmaster: You were looking for me?
20090729 14:40:45< euschn> Soliton: http://stud3.tuwien.ac.at/~e0204097/wesnoth/mp_difficulty_dialog.png  - this dialog pops up once you click ok or doubleclick a map, if the scenarioWML has a [difficulties] tag and "use map settings" is checked
20090729 14:42:54< Soliton> euschn: looks good to me.
20090729 14:43:37< euschn> great
20090729 14:48:48< Ivanovic> uhm, looks just like the normal difficulty dialog
20090729 14:48:51< Ivanovic> so: good!
20090729 15:02:49< YogiHH> euschn: make it so ;-)
20090729 15:03:31< zookeeper> euschn, so using difficulty levels forces a re-parse at some point before the game can start?
20090729 15:04:16< euschn> zookeeper: a reparse of the scenario config you mean?
20090729 15:04:21< zookeeper> yes
20090729 15:04:35 * zookeeper looks at the sandbox campaign
20090729 15:04:48< euschn> I think the mp create dialog is already before that, isnt it?
20090729 15:05:46< Soliton> no.
20090729 15:05:50< euschn> the scenario is just checked for a difficulty tag, just as it is checked for the other parameters like turns etc. when "use map settings" is checked
20090729 15:06:11< Soliton> it won't have any effect then.
20090729 15:06:19< zookeeper> there's currently no re-parse during MP after you've entered MP mode
20090729 15:06:54< Soliton> probably easier to have a variable one can check?
20090729 15:07:23< zookeeper> except it won't work for anything but event WML
20090729 15:07:35< zookeeper> or use the existing macros
20090729 15:07:43< zookeeper> you'd have to do everything differently than with SP campaigns
20090729 15:08:10< YogiHH> Soliton: I would prefer to use the existing campaign mechanisms, unless that means an amount of work not feasible for GSoC
20090729 15:08:42< zookeeper> anyways! i don't think a re-parse before the scenario starts is a bad thing, as long as it's only done if necessary, as long as the possibly long waits don't cause disconnections and other annoying stuff.
20090729 15:08:44< euschn> I am not sure I understand. the code I added just accesses parameters_.campaign_data, which is already accessed lots in mp::create::process_event
20090729 15:09:14< zookeeper> i also have this FR http://gna.org/bugs/?11503 which would basically be implemented as a side product of this ;)
20090729 15:09:37-!- thespaceinvader [n=chatzill@wesnoth/artist/thespaceinvader] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090729 15:09:52< euschn> I dont understand how this addition does parse more than the game already does
20090729 15:10:09< zookeeper> because it needs to parse after the difficulty selection has been made
20090729 15:10:16< zookeeper> and it also needs to parse before that
20090729 15:10:20< YogiHH> euschn: As i understand it, the parts of scenario WML that do not belong to the current difficulty setting need to be eliminiated. This is done for SP but not for MP
20090729 15:11:03< Ivanovic> if i understood things correctly currently all wml for mp stuff is parsed when joining the mp server
20090729 15:11:19< Ivanovic> at that moment macro expansion and the like don't have the difficulty var set
20090729 15:11:37< Ivanovic> so with the var set you need to reparse everything to get the correct macro extension
20090729 15:11:53< Ivanovic> (you know, those lovely #ifdef EASY thingies)
20090729 15:12:06< zookeeper> yep
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20090729 15:13:12< zookeeper> however as i said i don't think that ruins the idea or anything, maybe a bit more work to make it work as well as it should..
20090729 15:13:12< euschn> yes, I would have to add the difficulty as a define to the config_cache
20090729 15:13:17< euschn> is that a problem?
20090729 15:16:07< Soliton> well, people will have to be a lot more selective in what add-on they have installed at the same time.
20090729 15:16:37< Soliton> a reparse of several minutes online is not really a good idea..
20090729 15:16:48< euschn> i see
20090729 15:19:08< Ivanovic> it would be great to eventually have something like "domains" for mp content, too
20090729 15:19:33< Ivanovic> where content can specify dependencies and the like and only the stuff that really is required to be reparsed is reparsed
20090729 15:22:07< YogiHH> euschn: Hmm, there is no need to do a complete reparse of the multiplayer game_config. Maybe you can find a way to reparse only that specific scenario?
20090729 15:22:39< Soliton> how do you know there is no need?
20090729 15:23:08< YogiHH> Soliton: difficulties are only for scenario WML, right?
20090729 15:23:34< Soliton> difficulties are preprocessor symbols.
20090729 15:23:51< YogiHH> Soliton: I know, but they are not used elsewhere?
20090729 15:24:26< Soliton> maybe. the point is you can use them anywhere.
20090729 15:25:13< Soliton> also "the specific" scenarios does not sound like it works for mp campaigns.
20090729 15:25:57< YogiHH> Soliton: My idea was to do it whenever a new scenario is loaded
20090729 15:26:19< Soliton> how do you find the new scenario?
20090729 15:26:39< YogiHH> by evaluating "next_scenario"
20090729 15:26:50< Soliton> that's not a filename.
20090729 15:26:58< YogiHH> and looking up the corresponding config in the global game_config
20090729 15:27:12< Soliton> but fine then how do you find the filename when you found the scenario to reparse?
20090729 15:27:15< euschn> sorry for being slow here, I think I still fail to understand the core of the problem. check mp::create::process_event() and the .diff i posted at the link above. I do not do anything that isnt already done there
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20090729 15:27:47< euschn> or do you mean the macro in the value of difficulty_drescriptions?
20090729 15:27:55< Soliton> euschn: it doesn't matter what you did or didn't do it matters what needs to be done in principal. :-)
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20090729 15:28:27< euschn> ok :)
20090729 15:28:29< YogiHH> Soliton: it's not a specific filename, it's taken out of the cache file that is stored in memory as the game_config variable
20090729 15:29:04< Soliton> the principal of difficulties is that they are preprocessor symbols. as such you need to reparse and most importantly re-preprocess it to get the correct WML for a difficulty.
20090729 15:29:22< Soliton> s/principal/principle/
20090729 15:29:42< Soliton> YogiHH: but you need the filename to reparse the WML...
20090729 15:30:06< Soliton> s/reparse/repreprocess/  probably makes it clearer.
20090729 15:30:22< YogiHH> Soliton: Oh, now i understand. There is no way to preprocess config information?
20090729 15:30:35< Soliton> macros are gone.
20090729 15:31:15< zookeeper> however, it's worth noting that if we had the functionality for MP stuff to isolate their WML-heavy stuff into a separate domain loaded only when starting a game that needs it, the MP parsing times in general could greatly be shortened
20090729 15:31:33< YogiHH> Soliton: Oh my god, you are right, that doesn't work
20090729 15:31:39< zookeeper> especially if we enforced such a rule for large MP content on the add-on server
20090729 15:31:44< Soliton> zookeeper: yes, that would certainly be the best solution but a major change..
20090729 15:32:33< zookeeper> Soliton, major change in what way? sounds like the engine support itself wouldn't be very complicated
20090729 15:32:35< Soliton> zookeeper: well, just force every add-on in its namespace don't leave it up to the author. however give them a means to include WML from other namespaces.
20090729 15:33:37< Soliton> zookeeper: major change in how addons work.. i'd have to think a while on what it'd probably all involve...
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20090729 15:34:15< Soliton> at least there first needs to be a thought out design how it should work in detail so far it's very general.
20090729 15:34:50< zookeeper> Soliton, well, i'm not sure what cases my FR wouldn't cover
20090729 15:34:50< Soliton> it's certainly possible that in the end it's not much work.
20090729 15:36:39< Soliton> zookeeper: where is your response to Noyga's points? :-)
20090729 15:38:26< Soliton> sounds good indeed though.
20090729 15:39:17< Soliton> is there a need to have the define= be arbitrary?
20090729 15:39:29< Soliton> i'd rather have it be the same as the addon name.
20090729 15:39:53< Soliton> since the add-on server at least enforces uniqueness there.
20090729 15:41:31< Soliton> also why the need to reparse on game start and not creation?
20090729 15:44:38< Soliton> i'd say reparse at game creation time and force the define to be the addon name and then that could work well.
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20090729 15:52:42< zookeeper> Soliton, well, i don't see the first point, since can't you just take note of all defines and then just do a single reparse instead of once per each define?
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20090729 15:54:16< Soliton> what would that accomplish?
20090729 15:54:26< zookeeper> as for arbitrary vs add-on name...well, the game doesn't currently have a concept of add-ons, or does it?
20090729 15:54:58< Soliton> the addon has a top level dir name or a top level config at least.
20090729 15:55:10< Soliton> that name is unique.
20090729 15:55:14< zookeeper> Soliton, i guess i just don't understand the first point at all then
20090729 15:55:31< Soliton> yeah, me neither. :-P
20090729 15:55:40< zookeeper> of course people need to rebuild the cache often if they often install add-ons...but what does that have to do with anything? :P
20090729 15:55:51< Soliton> eras would not have defines anyway i'd imagine.
20090729 15:55:54< zookeeper> Soliton, right, ok
20090729 15:56:04< Soliton> unless they are just for one scenario or so.
20090729 15:56:12< zookeeper> well, they could, but i'm not sure if it'd be very useful
20090729 15:56:40< zookeeper> although a nice author could still #ifdef most of their custom units away
20090729 15:57:05< Soliton> having one define per add-on might be a bit restrictive but it would enforce proper seperation which is a good thing IMO.
20090729 15:57:25< zookeeper> parsing the units of big eras probably takes a decent while, so it'd be nice to allow the authors to do that.
20090729 15:57:30< zookeeper> sure
20090729 15:57:40< zookeeper> but..
20090729 15:58:02< zookeeper> if one add-on bundles together several MP scenarios, they'd all be parsed whenever one of them was played
20090729 15:58:16< zookeeper> not sure if that'd be a problem, maybe not
20090729 15:58:29< Soliton> right, proper seperation
20090729 15:58:40< Soliton> actually..
20090729 15:58:53< Soliton> we could just enforce the addon name as a prefix to the define.
20090729 15:59:08< Soliton> that'd be more flexible.
20090729 15:59:39< zookeeper> so why would you rather enforce anything about the defines in the first place?
20090729 15:59:57< Soliton> to avoid name collisions.
20090729 16:00:09< zookeeper> right
20090729 16:00:19< Soliton> add-ons breaking each other etc.
20090729 16:00:53< Soliton> ok, about eras... what if you play some survival that spawns unit from one era and you're own units are from another?
20090729 16:01:14< Soliton> we need a way to define dependency defines.
20090729 16:01:41< zookeeper> well, arbitrary defines would solve that, you could just use define=MYFUNKYMPSCENARIO,ERA_OF_DISCO
20090729 16:01:59< Soliton> well the comma there solves it.
20090729 16:03:01< zookeeper> yeah, well, you can't force the names either or else they can't refer to other add-ons' defines there
20090729 16:03:08< zookeeper> right?
20090729 16:03:21< Soliton> sure, you'd need a dependency_defines key then.
20090729 16:03:37< Soliton> which would allow arbitrary defines.
20090729 16:04:53< YogiHH> Hmm, what about avoiding the whole separation stuff by breaking the big multiplayer chunk into several smaller ones, as it is done with campaigns already?
20090729 16:05:07< YogiHH> for sp, that is
20090729 16:05:10< zookeeper> YogiHH, chunks like what?
20090729 16:05:22< YogiHH> campaigns and eras, probably
20090729 16:05:30< Soliton> what about reading the above discussion? :->
20090729 16:06:17< YogiHH> Soliton: Not sure if you got me right, i was thinking about the cache files
20090729 16:06:40< zookeeper> so a separate cache chunk/file/whatever for each add-on?
20090729 16:06:43< YogiHH> Soliton: Splitting them up, you wouldn't even have to think about name collisions
20090729 16:06:53< YogiHH> zookeeper: yes
20090729 16:06:57< Soliton> well, elaborate how it should work then.
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20090729 16:08:02< YogiHH> zookeeper: not sure what to do about map-packs, though
20090729 16:09:39< YogiHH> Soliton: It would allow us to parse the config after selecting difficulty, just like with sp campaigns. However, it is indeed a change with great impact.
20090729 16:10:17< YogiHH> The whole mp game creation would have to be reworked
20090729 16:10:28< Soliton> i don't see how.
20090729 16:10:49< Soliton> what zookeeper proposed is how campaigns work.
20090729 16:11:03< Soliton> cache files are preprocessed WML.
20090729 16:11:24< Soliton> i don't see how that helps diffculty selection in any way.
20090729 16:11:24< YogiHH> correct
20090729 16:12:01< YogiHH> Soliton: It reduces the amount of reparsing without having to introduce new functionality for it
20090729 16:12:35< Soliton> i guess i still don't understand what you mean.
20090729 16:12:49< zookeeper> do current cache files all contain the entire WML document or just chunks of it?
20090729 16:13:11< Soliton> pretty sure it must be everything.
20090729 16:13:20< YogiHH> yes, i think so, too
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20090729 16:26:24< Soliton> zookeeper: to summarize i'd remove points 3 and 4 from your FR and just make that a reparse at game creation time and make define= take a list of symbols.
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20090729 18:50:42< CIA-62> turuk * r37323 /trunk/data/core/units/drakes/Clasher.cfg: Updated advances_to.
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20090729 19:05:30< CIA-62> cornmander * r37315 /website/stats.wesnoth.org/ (helperlib.py wesstats/controllers/root.py): Added a very simple WML parser and support in the webapp to receive upload logs
20090729 19:06:02< Soliton> is that useful to have another python WML parser?
20090729 19:07:49< allefant> if it doesn't need macro expansion and string concatenation and path handling and so on... i'd say yes
20090729 19:07:59< allefant> those things make up 95% of the code in mine :P
20090729 19:11:41< Soliton> right, i suppose if perfromance is a concern that makes sense.
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20090729 19:15:31< CIA-62> euschn * r37321 /trunk/src/ (playcampaign.cpp savegame.cpp): fixed a carryover problem in mp games
20090729 19:18:26< CIA-62> soliton * r37324 /branches/1.6/src/server/game.cpp: only check for human and ai controllers for the host
20090729 19:18:42< CIA-62> soliton * r37325 /trunk/src/server/game.cpp: only check for human and ai controllers for the host
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20090729 19:22:26< Ivanovic> zookeeper: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=26455&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
20090729 19:22:43< Ivanovic> should be easy to do, just take the available yetis and be done
20090729 19:22:44< Ivanovic> ^^
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20090729 19:28:06< boucman> hey all
20090729 19:28:38< zookeeper> Soliton, hmm, but isn't it quite unacceptable to trigger a reparse every time a game is started?
20090729 19:29:03< zookeeper> i mean, it's gonna be pretty annoying i'd imagine, so it should only happen when the scenario/era/whatever in question says it needs that
20090729 19:29:33< Soliton> i'm not sure what you're responding to.
20090729 19:30:06< Soliton> if there is no need to reparse on game creation then we don't naturally.
20090729 19:30:06< zookeeper> Ivanovic, "The requested topic does not exist."
20090729 19:30:34< Turuk_> zookeeper: I'm quick
20090729 19:30:44< zookeeper> Soliton, ok, great
20090729 19:36:23< CIA-62> jetryl * r37318 /trunk/data/core/ (26 files in 2 dirs): Some new frames for the drake glider.
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20090729 19:48:40< CIA-62> silene * r37317 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 2 dirs): Fixed units not being recruited in retail builds.
20090729 19:49:24< CIA-62> cornmander * r37316 /website/stats.wesnoth.org/ (dbsample.py wesstats/controllers/root.py): 
20090729 19:49:24< CIA-62> Python server-side upload script is now live and functional. Note to devs who want to help me test this out: change
20090729 19:49:24< CIA-62> the host at upload_log.cpp:41 to "cornmander.com" and change upload_log.cpp:42 to "/wesstats/upload" . I still need to add an
20090729 19:49:24< CIA-62> error page/message for failed uploads.
20090729 19:49:27< CIA-62> Also added a file from r35480 that regenerates sample databases. I accidentally deleted it from svn a while ago.
20090729 19:49:52< CIA-62> shadowmaster * r37320 /trunk/ (5 files in 2 dirs): 
20090729 19:49:52< CIA-62> Storyscreens now use Pango for rendering text.
20090729 19:49:52< CIA-62> This makes Pango markup available in storyscreens.
20090729 19:53:41< CIA-62> ivanovic * r37322 /trunk/po/ (wesnoth-trow/et.po wesnoth-utbs/et.po): updated Estonian translation
20090729 19:54:01< CIA-62> thespaceinvader * r37311 /trunk/ (6 files in 5 dirs): Add and wire new Merman Hoplite portrait, update changelogs, portrait credits.
20090729 19:55:15< thespaceinvader> wo, CIA's backed up o_O
20090729 19:55:23< CIA-62> shadowmaster * r37319 /trunk/src/game_display.cpp: Appended a newline to an error message so the stderr doesn't get "messy".
20090729 19:57:24< Soliton> it likes to mix it up a little.
20090729 19:58:14< CIA-62> ai0867 * r37313 /trunk/src/ (network_boost.cpp network_boost.hpp): Nuke stubbed boost::asio based network rewrite.
20090729 20:02:27< CIA-62> soliton * r37312 /trunk/utils/mp-server/tail_log_irc: on the alternates use trunk as the dev server and always show logged on/off messages
20090729 20:03:30< CIA-62> ai0867 * r37314 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 2 dirs): Split recruit_unit() into find_recruit_location() and place_recruit()
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20090729 21:34:03< boucman> Crab_: how is it going ?
20090729 21:34:48< Crab_> I've started testing that patch
20090729 21:35:00< boucman> cool
20090729 21:35:10< boucman> so it's coded and compiled now ? :)
20090729 21:35:21< CIA-62> thespaceinvader * r37326 /trunk/ (3 files in 2 dirs): New Drake Glider base frame, update changelogs.
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20090729 21:35:33< Crab_> yes, it's coded/compiled, but somewhat untested
20090729 21:36:13< Crab_> and some places are still stubbed out
20090729 21:39:55< Crab_> recruitment_pattern needs some special handling (because it's a std::vector<std::string>, which has a) special parsing rules b) situations where there's a need to remove an invalid recruitment pattern entry)
20090729 21:41:10< boucman> ok
20090729 21:41:30< boucman> iirc we decided that recruitement pattern was a default_ai only aspect..
20090729 21:42:27< Crab_> but there's still need to code an aspect implementation for it
20090729 21:42:42< boucman> yes..
20090729 21:44:59< Crab_> I think that all @fixme's that are left, can be finished by tomorrow's evening. so, I'll post a new version for review then.
20090729 21:45:12< boucman> that sounds good
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20090729 22:11:57< CIA-62> zookeeper * r37327 /trunk/data/campaigns/The_Rise_Of_Wesnoth/ (11 files in 2 dirs): New graphics for the Vampire Lady from Blarumyrran.
20090729 22:17:38< CIA-62> zookeeper * r37328 /trunk/data/ (campaigns/The_Rise_Of_Wesnoth/_main.cfg core/about.cfg): Renamed Syn_Err to Blarumyrran in the credits and added him to the TRoW art credits too.
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20090729 23:46:42< Sapient> yo corn
20090729 23:49:49< Sapient> I noticed there's a variable named "l" in r37315... I know python doesn't fall under our C++ style conventions but still that's kinda ick
20090729 23:50:50< Sapient> l being so similar to 1 and I, it's pretty much shunned for a variable name
20090729 23:51:23< Polarina> I am trying to play Wesnoth over X forwarding via SSH. Is there any way to reduce the bandwidth usage since I only got 100 mbit/s?
20090729 23:54:47< Ivanovic> reduce the resolution
20090729 23:55:11< Ivanovic> compile with some lowmem switch which should remove lost of animations and the like
20090729 23:55:31< Polarina> I was thinking more of compression...
20090729 23:56:21< Ivanovic> untick basically everythingunder graphics/
20090729 23:56:42< Ivanovic> uhm, why should we add compression so that there is less "display load"?
20090729 23:56:56< Ivanovic> you know that ssh forward if basically forwarding "images"
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20090729 23:57:13< Ivanovic> so the less changes you got in the program, the less bandwidth you need
20090729 23:57:31< Ivanovic> with other words: turn everything that leads to changes (animations, floating labels, ...) off
20090729 23:57:38< Polarina> Ivanovic: Compression on the SSH side, I meant.
20090729 23:58:01< Ivanovic> man ssh
20090729 23:58:08< Polarina> Okl
20090729 23:58:11< Polarina> Thanks.
20090729 23:58:46< Ivanovic> and google might also help
20090729 23:58:51< Ivanovic> okay, off to bed now, n8
20090729 23:59:03< MJ999> Polarina: http://www.ssh.com/support/documentation/online/ssh/adminguide/32/Compression.html
20090729 23:59:28< Polarina> MJ999: Thanks.
--- Log closed Thu Jul 30 00:00:51 2009