--- Log opened Thu Jul 30 00:00:51 2009
20090730 00:02:51< Polarina> MJ999: Doesn't work. :(
20090730 00:03:05-!- zookeeper [n=l@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit []
20090730 00:04:13< MJ999> Polarina: Doesn't work at all or doesn't improve performance?
20090730 00:05:06< Polarina> MJ999: Well, first, I am using "ssh", not "ssh2" command line option. And passing +C9 makes it complain about not being able to resolve the hostname +C9.
20090730 00:07:18< MJ999> Polarina: Did you try the editing your config file method?
20090730 00:07:57< Polarina> MJ999: On the server, yes.
20090730 00:10:24< MJ999> Polarina: Try ssh -c user@host instead of +c9
20090730 00:13:24< Polarina> That works.
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20090730 00:13:57< MJ999> Polarina: Not sure how much optimization you'll get though, good luck anyway. :)
20090730 00:14:00< Soliton> i'ts -C really.
20090730 00:14:31< MJ999> Ahhh, my bad.
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20090730 00:15:18< Polarina> I need to get some CAT-6 cables.
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20090730 00:16:04< shadowmaster> esr: yes, kind of
20090730 00:16:12< loonycyborg> I once tried running wesnoth over ssh and X forwarding over 100 Mbit lan and it performed rather well.
20090730 00:16:50< esr> shadowmaster: What's up?
20090730 00:17:55< shadowmaster> esr: Pango, man, Pango.
20090730 00:18:11< shadowmaster> storyscreens, Pango, r3732
20090730 00:18:13< shadowmaster> 0
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20090730 00:29:12< esr> shadowmaster: Sorry, I'm not undersyanding you.
20090730 00:29:40< shadowmaster> aren't you the one who wanted pango storyscreens so much?
20090730 00:29:46< shadowmaster> *pango markup in
20090730 00:29:59< esr> Oh, you mean that's done?  Yay!
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20090730 03:07:10< Bob_The_Mighty> I am having trouble using terrain filters to dissalow a right-click option on certain terrain - should it be a filter_location outside the show-if or have_location inside it?
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20090730 03:53:53< corn> Ivanovic: did you read my discussion about mp logs?
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20090730 06:45:12< Bob_The_Mighty> anyone here?
20090730 06:52:48< Blueblaze> Got a better question to ask?
20090730 06:54:09< Turuk> Testy testy
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20090730 07:22:04< corn> gna down?
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20090730 07:36:00< Bob_The_Mighty> know much about storing locations?
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20090730 08:58:06< euschn> hi
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20090730 09:01:53< Jetrel> wherefore art thou, gna?
20090730 09:03:47< ancestral> GNA = Gna's Not Accessible ?
20090730 09:04:27< Jetrel> hah
20090730 09:04:32 * Jetrel lets loose a slew of expletives
20090730 09:05:25< ABCD> Jetrel: that is about the most misunderstood line in Shakespeare :) [wherefore means "why", not "where"]
20090730 09:05:43-!- ancestral [n=ancestra@97-116-106-75.mpls.qwest.net] has quit ["And that’s the end of THAT chapter."]
20090730 09:05:46< Jetrel> ABCD:  yes, I'm aware, but I'm also playing to the 'audience'
20090730 09:06:00< ABCD> good point ;)
20090730 09:06:56< ABCD> Jetrel: nothing personal, mind you; I just heard that one 1 too many times today
20090730 09:08:48< zookeeper> Jetrel, seen the new vampire lady?
20090730 09:08:52< zookeeper> wesbot, log r37327
20090730 09:08:56< Jetrel> zookeeper:  nope
20090730 09:09:02< Jetrel> links, links, links
20090730 09:09:05< zookeeper> well however the f that botty works.
20090730 09:09:13< zookeeper> wesbot: log r37327
20090730 09:09:16< zookeeper> wesbot: log 37327
20090730 09:09:26< Jetrel> zookeeper:  rock that botty
20090730 09:10:58< zookeeper> well, you'll find it
20090730 09:11:14< Jetrel> fuckmangle.  Our robot masters have abandoned us.
20090730 09:11:58< Jetrel> zookeeper:  ah, yes, the bot is probably failing because it, too, cannot connect to svn.gna.org
20090730 09:12:03< wesbot>  * r37327 : 
20090730 09:12:04< wesbot> URL: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth?view=rev&rev=37327
20090730 09:15:12< wesbot>  * r37327 : 
20090730 09:15:13< wesbot> URL: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth?view=rev&rev=37327
20090730 09:18:22< wesbot>  * r37327 : 
20090730 09:18:24< wesbot> URL: http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth?view=rev&rev=37327
20090730 09:18:40< euschn> Soliton, zookeeper: about yesterdays discussion of parsing/preprocessing configs and difficulty in MP: YogiHH and I thought of the following workaround: if we add de filepath of each scenario config as an extra key at the time of parsing, we could easily retrieve the single file and re-preprocess/parse later on when its needed, e.g. after difficulty is chosen in mp::create
20090730 09:19:07< euschn> I admit its quite a workaround, but it would not take a lot of effort and should work - what is your opinion on this?
20090730 09:19:20< euschn> s/de/the
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20090730 09:30:20< YogiHH> hello
20090730 09:31:05< euschn> hi YogiHH 
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20090730 09:42:49< Soliton> what if the scenario uses macros that are defined in another file?
20090730 09:43:55< zookeeper> (yeah, it gets a bit too technical for me to comment on much, it seems)
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20090730 10:10:25< euschn> Soliton: hm, what if each scenario cfg stored the filename of the toplevel _main.cfg of the add-on/campaign? one would then reparse the specific add-on directory only.
20090730 10:10:34< euschn> or are there add-ons that use macros from other add-ons?
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20090730 10:15:59< Ivanovic> moin
20090730 10:16:10< Ivanovic> corn: i think i missed that one
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20090730 10:27:57< zookeeper> Soliton, were there 1.6+svn win builds somewhere?
20090730 10:29:20< loonycyborg> AFAIK only trunk for now.
20090730 10:30:08< zookeeper> all right, i'll download 1.6.4 then..
20090730 10:31:20< zookeeper> and we really really need that friggin spamfilter: http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/Special:Recentchanges
20090730 10:31:31< zookeeper> i'm not gonna delete any of those by hand
20090730 10:31:52< zookeeper> (well, i might, but only after the filter will block any further accounts like that)
20090730 10:38:30< Ivanovic> it would be really great it ettin could have a look at the wiki again
20090730 10:38:56< Ivanovic> to check a) for updates (no idea if our version of mediawiki is up to date) and b) how to setup some spam filtering
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20090730 10:50:11< CIA-62> ivanovic * r37329 /trunk/po/ (4 files in 4 dirs): updated Estonian translation
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20090730 10:57:04< CIA-62> ivanovic * r37330 /branches/1.6/ (18 files in 17 dirs): updated Estonian translation
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20090730 10:58:43< CIA-62> jetryl * r37331 /trunk/data/core/images/units/drakes/ (11 files): Flying frames for the drake glider.
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20090730 11:16:57< zookeeper> humm. i noticed that when you give a wrong number of macro arguments, it actually tells you the details in stderr but not in the error dialog that pops up.
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20090730 12:20:00< CIA-62> thespaceinvader * r37332 /trunk/ (6 files in 5 dirs): Add and wire new Goblin Impaler portrait, update changelogs, portrait credits.
20090730 12:21:18< CIA-62> thespaceinvader * r37333 /trunk/data/core/units/goblins/Impaler.cfg: fix impaler WML
20090730 12:23:26< CIA-62> thespaceinvader * r37334 /trunk/ (6 files in 5 dirs): Add and wire new Goblin Rouser portrait, update changelogs, portrait credits.
20090730 12:26:56< CIA-62> thespaceinvader * r37335 /trunk/ (6 files in 5 dirs): Add and wire new Merman Triton portrait, update changelogs, portrait credits.
20090730 12:41:15-!- lynxlynxlynx [n=navaden@sourcemage/warlock/lynxlynxlynx] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20090730 12:44:07< CIA-62> ivanovic * r37336 /trunk/po/ (5 files in 5 dirs): updated Estonian translation
20090730 12:44:37< lynxlynxlynx> ah, my bug was already reported and fixed :)
20090730 12:45:15< lynxlynxlynx> time to build svn
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20090730 12:51:39< ilor> Soliton around? I've been looking into the lobby bot upgrade in what little time I had for the past 2 days (doing cabling at my parents house is an awful time and energy sink)
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20090730 12:53:16< ilor> Soliton: I figure it would make the most sence to add a trigger for ops / voiced people in relevant -lobby irc channels that would interpret them as raw commands and pass them to the server fifo without adding the 'adminmsg' or anything
20090730 13:11:57< ilor> I think since we're depending on the irc server being sane anyway we might as well use the existing privilege infrastructure there
20090730 13:12:50< ilor> shouldn't be a lot of trouble for the moderators to do a "/msg chanserv voice #wesnoth-mp-lobby" before doing a lobby: kick idiot
20090730 13:27:55< Soliton> sounds good.
20090730 13:28:27< Soliton> we can setup autovoice or ops on those channels.
20090730 13:34:17< ilor> we could also match our hostmasks but I think op/voice is better as some mods might actually have some other mask
20090730 13:35:36< ilor> Soliton: here's a not tested triggers file with what I think are the needed changes: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m64b27519
20090730 13:37:13< ilor> I couldn't find a way to "stop" the triggers after one matches, so I used a prefix for admin commands to differentiate from the lobbymsg
20090730 13:37:29< ilor> so it'd be lobby: !kick someone
20090730 13:38:19< ilor> Soliton: maybe change that to "/" so we have a nice similarity to ingame lobby?
20090730 13:38:41< Soliton> sounds good.
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20090730 13:48:47< ilor> Soliton: so if you could just drop http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/mb33fb25 in .irssi/triggers and do a /trigger reload in the lobby bot :)
20090730 13:50:45< ilor> I can go round and register the mp chans so it can actually work, they seem unregistered yet
20090730 13:55:42< Soliton> which one is not registered?
20090730 13:56:39< ilor> Soliton: #wesnoth-mp-lobby-1.4 1.6 and dev
20090730 13:57:05< ilor> at least that's what msg chanserv info tells me
20090730 13:59:26< Soliton> oh yeah, can't register those since i don't have ops.
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20090730 14:00:17< ilor> Soliton: uh, can't register why?
20090730 14:01:37< ilor> nvm got it
20090730 14:10:33< CIA-62> ai0867 * r37337 /trunk/src/ai/actions.cpp: Fix my breakage of silene's r37241.
20090730 14:17:05-!- euschn [n=chatzill@wesnoth/developer/euschn] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20090730 14:21:10< CIA-62> ai0867 * r37338 /trunk/data/tools/wmllint: Add a wmllint rule to replace @add-ons with ~add-ons.
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20090730 14:26:43< CIA-62> ivanovic * r37339 /trunk/po/ (9 files in 9 dirs): updated Estonian translation
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20090730 14:48:10< CIA-62> ai0867 * r37340 /trunk/data/tools/wesnoth/wmliterator.py: Make wmliterator prioritize << >> over " ".
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20090730 14:54:54< ilor> Ivanovic: around?
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20090730 15:07:26< ilor> Ivanovic: when you're around and have a sec, could you pop into #freenode and ask for an op or registration for the wesnoth-mp-lobby-* channels? I talked to a staffek (niko) and seems the group contact, aka you iirc, need to ask for that
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20090730 15:14:14< ilor> Soliton: could you set the lobby triggers to http://wesnoth.pastebin.com/m110f20b0 and make the bot join #wesnoth-test for a while?
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20090730 15:24:48< ilor> Soliton: nevermind that last one, got the lobby chans registered
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20090730 16:00:28< ilor> Soliton: trunk server is echoed to #wenoth-mp-lobby-dev?
20090730 16:13:06< ilor> gah, need to go, see you later
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20090730 16:46:32< Ivanovic> euschn: should this one be fixed due to your changes or is it still valid? http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=372414#p372414
20090730 16:46:49< Ivanovic> euschn: not sure if it is really for you, but I guess so...
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20090730 17:02:43< shadowmaster> wesbot: seen boucman
20090730 17:02:43< wesbot> shadowmaster: The person with the nick boucman last spoke 19h 17m ago.  17h 24m ago they left with the message: "Leaving."
20090730 17:03:18-!- noy [n=Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090730 17:03:49< shadowmaster> I knew I had not broken the music playlists, boucman did :-)
20090730 17:04:20-!- noy [n=Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Client Quit]
20090730 17:05:54< shadowmaster> https://gna.org/bugs/?14039
20090730 17:09:24< CIA-62> shadowmaster * r37341 /trunk/src/sound.cpp: 
20090730 17:09:24< CIA-62> Remove a rather unnecessary (and annoying) newline in a logger input
20090730 17:09:24< CIA-62> sequence.
20090730 17:09:47< CIA-62> shadowmaster * r37342 /trunk/changelog: 
20090730 17:09:47< CIA-62> (some changelog entry): Spell wmllint lowercase, indentation, line
20090730 17:09:47< CIA-62> wrapping around 80th column...
20090730 17:10:08< CIA-62> shadowmaster * r37343 /trunk/changelog: 
20090730 17:10:08< CIA-62> Announce the bonus features from 37320 in the changelog:
20090730 17:10:08< CIA-62> [story][part]text_layout= and [story][part]title=.
20090730 17:11:46< shadowmaster> btw, any comments on the new story text effect?
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20090730 17:29:32-!- Turuk [n=Turuk@wesnoth/forumsith/turuk] has quit [Success]
20090730 17:29:42< Soliton> not as good as the old.
20090730 17:29:47-!- Turuk [n=Turuk@wesnoth/forumsith/turuk] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090730 17:30:07< Soliton> ilor: trunk server is not echoed at all.
20090730 17:30:40< shadowmaster> unfortunately I cannot guess each character's width, even if it was a monospaced font, because of the potential effects of the markup
20090730 17:31:43< shadowmaster> so it's not possible to insert character-by-character (at least not properly, and I couldn't find a reliable way to get each line's height without using the old wordwrapping algorithm which only works with SDL_ttf)
20090730 17:32:24< Soliton> make it improperly then?
20090730 17:33:10< shadowmaster> it has the potential to look messy
20090730 17:33:33< Soliton> it has also the potential to look better than what we have now.
20090730 17:34:06< shadowmaster> for certain definitions of 'better', I guess.
20090730 18:09:14-!- wesbot changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 67 bugs, 239 feature requests, 11 patches | logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org/ | Don't paste on IRC! Use a pastebin: http://wesnoth.pastebin.com | http://imagebin.org
20090730 18:27:54-!- Noyga [n=lame-z@wesnoth/developer/noyga] has joined #wesnoth-dev
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20090730 19:04:07< zookeeper> spam? http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=372540#p372540
20090730 19:05:18< zookeeper> based on the site, yes -.-
20090730 19:05:24< shadowmaster> doesn't exist.
20090730 19:05:36< shadowmaster> so someone already handled it I guess.
20090730 19:06:00< zookeeper> oh. looks like it.
20090730 19:06:12< shadowmaster> wesbot: seen kitty_
20090730 19:06:12< wesbot> shadowmaster: The person with the nick kitty_ last spoke 6d 2h ago.  6d 1h ago they left with the message: "bye"
20090730 19:10:17< Turuk> zookeeper, do you think rogerwillson is spam?
20090730 19:12:47< zookeeper> who?
20090730 19:13:25< zookeeper> eh, probably not
20090730 19:13:58< zookeeper> in two threads on topic doesn't look like spam to me even if his posts are pointless
20090730 19:15:56< Turuk> Yeah, well his signature was color and sounded like a failed spam link
20090730 19:16:00< Turuk> If not, then he needs help
20090730 19:18:26< zookeeper> you could be his personal counselor.
20090730 19:19:31< Turuk> ha
20090730 19:19:50< Turuk> I already woke up this morning to a PM from someone just to be called catpiss
20090730 19:19:55< Turuk> I already have enough people with problems on my plate
20090730 19:21:26< zookeeper> that's kinda cute
20090730 19:21:31< blarumyrran> It could have been worse
20090730 19:21:45< blarumyrran> I mean, catpiss is probably a lot better than a lot of other kinds of piss
20090730 19:23:51< Turuk> true, but catpiss has that bit of reek they use to mark their territory
20090730 19:24:10< Turuk> however, I certainly think it's the best way to come off a ban
20090730 19:24:18< noy> who maintains EE?
20090730 19:24:24< noy> or should I say BEEM
20090730 19:25:27< Turuk> Voodoo I think
20090730 19:25:48< Turuk> yup, Voodoo
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20090730 19:35:29< Soliton> umm, someone kindly put me back in control of the mp lobby channels...
20090730 19:36:33< irmorelle> Ivanovic: ^
20090730 19:38:01< noy> yeah I noticed that Soliton 
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20090730 19:39:19< shadowmaster> ilor is able too if he knows how to, at least on the 1.6 one
20090730 19:40:20< shadowmaster> well, on the dev one too.
20090730 19:40:34< Soliton> on all of them, i imagine.
20090730 19:41:07< Soliton> i have no idea why properly registered channels had to be taken over/reset or whatever.
20090730 19:42:03< shadowmaster> that's a weird one actually. I haven't lost control in mine
20090730 19:42:12< shadowmaster> which are 4 channels under the wesnoth namespace
20090730 19:44:03< shadowmaster> look on the bright side! you still have #wesnoth-mp-lobby all for your own! (for some reason that one wasn't touched, it doesn't even have the default GCF contact entry)
20090730 19:45:16-!- EdB [n=edb@131.12.95-79.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090730 19:50:30< shadowmaster> anyway, Freenode didn't do this one apparently
20090730 19:53:16-!- EdB [n=edb@131.12.95-79.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
20090730 19:53:31-!- noy [n=Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit ["GO, GET TO THE CHOPPAH!!!"]
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20090730 19:57:02< Ivanovic> Soliton: better?
20090730 19:58:01< shadowmaster> "*!*@wesnoth/*" <- artists too!
20090730 19:58:03-!- Blueblaze [n=nick@c-98-199-143-139.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev
20090730 19:58:14< shadowmaster> oh, and wesnoth-umc-dev developers
20090730 19:59:03< Soliton> Ivanovic: yes, thanks.
20090730 19:59:41< Ivanovic> shadowmaster: with this one artists are already covered
20090730 19:59:55< shadowmaster> that's exactly what I'm pointing out.
20090730 19:59:56< Ivanovic> not sure if it should stay the way or if we should reduce the access list
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20090730 20:02:37< CIA-62> mcshark * r37344 /trunk/src/server/server.cpp: Setting valid FIFODIR for win32, if necessary
20090730 20:03:14< shadowmaster> um, I wasn't aware that irssi did user hostname-caching
20090730 20:04:11< shadowmaster> or maybe the network is really broken and syn. isn't propagating SETHOST to all servers 
20090730 20:04:40< shadowmaster> uh, wrong window
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20090730 20:10:56< shadowmaster> OTOH I just confirmed my theory. I feel happier now
20090730 20:14:42-!- shadowmaster_ [n=ignacio@wesnoth/developer/shadowmaster] has quit []
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20090730 20:16:50< Soliton> hmm, the cave serpent in NR does not work. it tells me unknown unit type.
20090730 20:17:02< Soliton> it appears properly included though.
20090730 20:17:32< shadowmaster> "cave serpent"? I sure hope that's not the actual unit's type=
20090730 20:17:48< Soliton> hmm, after scenarios though. does that make a difference?
20090730 20:18:14< shadowmaster> unless, of course, we got a Cave Serpent somewhere
20090730 20:18:46< Soliton> it's derived from the water serpent.
20090730 20:18:55< thespaceinvader> cave serpent?
20090730 20:19:15< thespaceinvader> the Water Serpent that replaced the Sea Serpent in The Pursuit?
20090730 20:19:23< Soliton> yes.
20090730 20:19:28< thespaceinvader> ok
20090730 20:19:38< shadowmaster> it doesn't look wrong to me
20090730 20:19:58< shadowmaster> but perhaps someone forgot to preprocess units/ in NR
20090730 20:22:31< shadowmaster> uh; pop;
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20090730 20:33:01< euschn> hi
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20090730 20:33:55< Crab_> hi euschn
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20090730 20:34:41< YogiHH> hello
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20090730 20:47:51< silene> hi
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20090730 21:52:07< melinath> is standard spelling for wesnoth text british or american?
20090730 21:52:14< melinath> *english text
20090730 21:56:56< thespaceinvader> american, i think - there's a british english translation
20090730 22:01:22< melinath> okay
20090730 22:07:50< melinath> tsi: are you planning on adjusting that in the dwarf scout descs?
20090730 22:08:22< thespaceinvader> in trunk you mean?
20090730 22:08:27< thespaceinvader> or doing another draft?
20090730 22:08:48< melinath> in the drafts you've got
20090730 22:09:46< thespaceinvader> yeah, i'll fix those last niggles of capitalisation etc
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20090730 22:12:19< melinath> do you have a strong capitalization preference?
20090730 22:13:16< melinath> though I guess that would be more a discussion for the writing channel...
20090730 22:13:42< thespaceinvader> not hugely - having the unit name caps and not the species looks odd when they're together
20090730 22:13:48< thespaceinvader> so i go for no caps at all
20090730 22:16:14< Turuk> so it would read as dwarvish scout
20090730 22:16:15< Turuk> ?
20090730 22:16:24< Turuk> Why not DWARVISH SCOUT YEAAHHH
20090730 22:16:32< thespaceinvader> yes, correct
20090730 22:16:51< melinath> whoops... turns out I did caps on unit and race.
20090730 22:17:16< melinath> meh, w/e
20090730 22:17:57< Turuk> interesting
20090730 22:18:40< melinath> I think the 'next to each other' thing isn't necessarily a problem.
20090730 22:18:48< melinath> you're right, it would look odd
20090730 22:18:51< melinath> but...
20090730 22:19:22< melinath> if you take the race as something added to the unit name to make it more identifiable to the player
20090730 22:19:31< melinath> it's not an issue.
20090730 22:20:10< melinath> i.e. if you refer to a Drake Slasher as a Slasher or a Dwarf Explorer as an Explorer in the description, the words aren't ever next to each other.
20090730 22:22:26< Turuk> so....
20090730 22:23:34< thespaceinvader> Currently, I lean furthest towards capitalising both
20090730 22:24:02< thespaceinvader> it looks best, and we can read race names very similarly to country desctiptors, which are always capitalised
20090730 22:24:11< thespaceinvader> that's what i'll commit, once I've finished my game
20090730 22:24:30< melinath> proper nouns.
20090730 22:24:45< melinath> sounds good to me.
20090730 22:34:28< Sapient> well, some of the unit types are clearly not proper titles
20090730 22:34:59< Sapient> e.g. "Thug"
20090730 22:35:17< Sapient> Ruffian, etc.
20090730 22:37:11< thespaceinvader> indeed, however they are the title of the unit in the game, and that's what the description are for, to give information about the units in the game
20090730 22:38:46< Sapient> ok, Peasant :p
20090730 22:40:42< Sapient> probably that's best for the unit type description, but I'd be more selective about it in dialogue
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20090730 22:55:05< VladimirSlavik> hi, just sort of flying by, anyone know what's with torangan? I was told by my fellow translator that he didn't apply his last update from beginning of July...
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20090730 23:05:15< melinath> sapient: good point. Thug may look a bit odd as a capitalized name in a desc.
20090730 23:05:45< melinath> sapient: however, I think the writer would automatically avoid putting it in an odd-looking place...
20090730 23:05:55< melinath> compare: http://www.wesnoth.org/units/trunk/C/Highwayman.html
20090730 23:06:50< melinath> Dialogue is, of course, a completely different area. Not even being brushed as of yet... or only in the theoretical sense.
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20090730 23:12:58< CIA-62> thespaceinvader * r37345 /trunk/data/core/units/dwarves/ (Explorer.cfg Pathfinder.cfg Scout.cfg): Update Dwarvish Scout line descriptions.
20090730 23:13:44< corn> Ivanovic: still around?
20090730 23:13:58< Ivanovic> jupp
20090730 23:14:15< corn> ok
20090730 23:14:49< corn> I am beginning to implement new things to be logged in the upload logs, and I think it would be cool to do MP logs
20090730 23:15:23< corn> however, there was some controversy in the forums over it and I want to make sure that it's implemented in a way that most people will be happy
20090730 23:15:48< corn> (mp logs will also make testing much easier for me since I can just generate hundreds of logs by doing AI vs AI testing)
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20090730 23:16:17< Ivanovic> uhm regarding logs from the mp server just talk to noy and Soliton, they should know things best
20090730 23:16:22< corn> ok
20090730 23:16:43< Ivanovic> that is: the mp server already *does* save replays
20090730 23:16:53< Ivanovic> can logs be created using those?
20090730 23:17:02< noy> what sort of logs?
20090730 23:17:11< corn> the same kind that are uploaded about SP campaigns right now
20090730 23:17:24< corn> it will consist of what sides played, which side won
20090730 23:17:36< corn> total number of turns, gold per each side
20090730 23:17:45< corn> and the units that were killed on each tile in the map
20090730 23:18:08< corn> nothing personally identifiable
20090730 23:18:17< noy> okay, but for what use?
20090730 23:18:43< corn> balancing and statistic gathering, *not* ranking
20090730 23:19:01< corn> so that whoever wants to can notice trends in how wesnoth is played
20090730 23:19:19< corn> it is also useful for AI testing
20090730 23:19:54< corn> Ivanovic: I am not sure if it can be done using replays, since I have no idea how replays work right now
20090730 23:20:07< noy> As I think I said to you before, I'm almost certain there is no use for such statistics in map balancing
20090730 23:20:17< corn> yes, you did
20090730 23:20:40< corn> it would still be useful for AI testing since an AI won't be using competitive play strategies
20090730 23:20:47< noy> Maybe for AI testing, but to be honest, I doubt people are going to program specific AIs for maps
20090730 23:21:11< noy> we can barely get one AI completed for the entire game that works effectively. 
20090730 23:21:37< corn> well, it would be to see weaknesses in the current AI
20090730 23:21:53< corn> ex. poor defense of villages
20090730 23:22:05< noy> ... or people can just see that qualitatively.
20090730 23:22:19< Crab_> noy: It can be useful to get statistically significant info about AI behavior. this requires playing a large number of ai-vs-ai games and analyzing trends in the results
20090730 23:22:31< noy> I doubt someone is going to take the time to troll through a whole depth of statistical analysis and design an AI around it.
20090730 23:22:44< noy> its nice in theory Crab_, I just don't see it. 
20090730 23:23:02< noy> Moreover we've had significant blowback over the current replay server among the player base. 
20090730 23:23:14< noy> to the extent that some people just play non-obs games. 
20090730 23:23:30< corn> would it be fair game to implement upload logs on replays then?
20090730 23:23:32< noy> now yeah, its nice to say that "its non-identifiable." People don't really care.  
20090730 23:23:43< Crab_> noy: for example, we calculated 'average time per turn' of the ai, and used this time to check various optimizations of the ai 'think speed' really work.
20090730 23:24:28< Crab_> noy: also, we confirmed a weakness in the AI 1st-turn recruiting by looking at game statistics
20090730 23:25:24< noy> Well, to be honest I wouldn't take AI usage from the server as something to balance the AI with either
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20090730 23:25:52< corn> player vs AI data may be different from AI vs AI data
20090730 23:25:54< Crab_> noy: this data (about ai) can be collected without any 'log uploads', but, reusing the infrastructure corn is building will allow us to see some nice graphs, not just 'text results'
20090730 23:26:12< Crab_> also, corn is right about 'player vs AI data may be different'
20090730 23:26:17< corn> however
20090730 23:26:28< noy> with the exception of World Conquest, the AI is abused by new players with completely incorrect settings. 
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20090730 23:26:45< corn> *my* main motivation for this is that I am adding and changing what data is uploaded for sp campaigns
20090730 23:27:14< corn> there is no functionality in the client right now to run SP campaigns without a GUI and completely automated and there are significant problems with the idea
20090730 23:27:35< noy> Good to know, SP campaigns use AIs in a completely different fashion and are played differently as well. 
20090730 23:27:36< corn> since you would need to skip all the text dialogs and the AI isn't smart enough to go for scenario goals
20090730 23:28:25< corn> well, my point is that I would be implementing changes and I would not be able to test them well enough without an automated way of generating many unique logs
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20090730 23:30:01< Aethaeryn> hmmm
20090730 23:30:01< Aethaeryn> I need help balancing an MP map
20090730 23:30:01< noy> and I'm guessing that functionality can be used for both right?
20090730 23:30:03< corn> yes
20090730 23:30:06< corn> noy: yes
20090730 23:30:36< corn> I would be perfectly happy implementing this in such a way that it is only used in AI vs AI games, and not in live multiplayer games
20090730 23:30:44< noy> thats fine by me. 
20090730 23:30:48< corn> ok
20090730 23:30:56< noy> I just can't see any use for this whatsoever in MP
20090730 23:31:23< noy> and I can see that it may well add to disconent that is already there. 
20090730 23:32:02< corn> well, I remember when I played C&C:generals they collected data on win percentage per faction
20090730 23:32:37< corn> it was probably used in unit balancing so no one faction would be better, despite the differences in strategy in each faction
20090730 23:33:07< corn> sometimes, there are emergent patterns and rules that aren't immediately obvious from a unit addition/change
20090730 23:33:11< noy> In reality we have a different development model, which prioritizes top end games.
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20090730 23:33:55< noy> The vast mass of games played on wesnoth are irrellevant for our development purposes. 
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20090730 23:34:01< corn> that is true
20090730 23:34:14< corn> it's a lot easier to balance the game when you are only catering to a small audience of competitive players
20090730 23:34:52< noy> And I don't think we can do it another way or should. the game prioritizes skill development and strong analysis
20090730 23:35:02< corn> anyway, I will implement it right now so that it can only be used in conjunction with AI testing
20090730 23:35:10< noy> Excellent, thank you
20090730 23:35:14< corn> ok :)
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--- Log closed Fri Jul 31 00:00:06 2009