--- Log opened Wed Jul 22 00:00:15 2009
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20090722 04:10:32< Aethaeryn> http://www.theonion.com/content/news/nothing_at_all_happens_to_28?utm_source=a-section
20090722 04:10:35< Aethaeryn> XD
20090722 04:10:38< Aethaeryn> The Onion has been sold to the Chinese
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20090722 05:41:43< Aethaeryn> eh, cloud computing is a stupid idea.
20090722 05:43:11< Aethaeryn> I'm not going to give up existing applications, with far more potential for power, to use web-based ones entirely dependent on having an Internet connection.
20090722 05:43:37< Aethaeryn> Cloud computing doesn't need Web 2.0 to work, or even Web 3.0... It'd need a Web 4.0!
20090722 05:45:19< Aethaeryn> And even then, I'd prefer to run applications locally for security/privacy/control reasons.
20090722 05:46:12< Aethaeryn> Honestly, the only reason I use GMail is because I don't care about email, nor do I use it frequently. If I had important emails, I'd at the very least back them up locally in multiple locations (both on a local and an external hard drive).
20090722 05:46:19< Aethaeryn> Anyone disagree?
20090722 05:48:23< Aethaeryn> I had to voice my opinions after reading about "Chrome OS," but if I elaborated/vented more, I could probably write a blog on it (ironically, hosted at Blogspot).
20090722 05:48:54< Blueblaze> Google owns half of the known world
20090722 05:49:16< Blueblaze> Once google finishes mapping the other half, then they'll own it all
20090722 05:49:47< Aethaeryn> Blueblaze: Then it'd be better to move to South America or the Himilayas, not Italy.
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20090722 05:56:13< Blueblaze> No one said I was opposed to Google owning the world
20090722 05:58:25< Aethaeryn> Blueblaze: Everyone knows that everyone is opposed to someone owning or controlling or absolutely dictating the world... except themselves.
20090722 05:58:41< Aethaeryn> I would agree with 100% of the edicts I created if I were a despot.
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20090722 14:03:29< JorritAfk> Hi
20090722 14:04:05< JorritAfk> I have a question. How can I make a unit that is at the players side but cannot be controlled by the player. The unit is supposed to be in a prison and can only 'get out' when the prison bars are destroyed.
20090722 14:05:01< VurtualRuler98> Uhm.
20090722 14:05:06< VurtualRuler98> I'm just guessing here.
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20090722 14:05:27< VurtualRuler98> What if you made it be on another, friendly side, of the same color, then switch it/remove and place new one, when you rescue it?
20090722 14:05:43< JorritAfk> hmm. Worth a try I suppose...
20090722 14:05:54< JorritAfk> Just have to find out how to let it 'switch sides' then.
20090722 14:06:19< VurtualRuler98> Wait, how big is this prison?
20090722 14:06:33< JorritAfk> Not that big. Just a number of hexes.
20090722 14:06:35< JorritAfk> About 8 hexes.
20090722 14:06:40< VurtualRuler98> The cell is?
20090722 14:06:50< JorritAfk> yes
20090722 14:07:03< VurtualRuler98> I was going to suggest "bars, when destroyed, create unit", or something. 
20090722 14:07:30< JorritAfk> hmm... I would prefer the units to be already visible before the bars are destroyed.
20090722 14:07:34< JorritAfk> Just inactive
20090722 14:09:54< Soliton> if the unit is in a prison why not allow it to move?
20090722 14:10:01< JorritAfk> Moving is ok.
20090722 14:10:05< JorritAfk> But the problem is that it can escape.
20090722 14:10:10< JorritAfk> It can also destroy the prison bars.
20090722 14:10:18< JorritAfk> And that's not desired.
20090722 14:10:48< Soliton> well, why can it do that?
20090722 14:10:53< JorritAfk> And also it would actually be better if the prisoner only joins the player's team after being rescued.
20090722 14:10:59< Soliton> seems like a not very good prison.
20090722 14:11:02< JorritAfk> Soliton: because it can go adjacent to the prison bars and hit them.
20090722 14:11:07< JorritAfk> i.e. a prison bar has two sides.
20090722 14:11:13< JorritAfk> One outside and one inside.
20090722 14:11:20< JorritAfk> I cannot make it attackable only from one side.
20090722 14:11:22< JorritAfk> I think
20090722 14:11:22< JorritAfk> ?
20090722 14:11:39< VurtualRuler98> Oh, wait.
20090722 14:11:46< VurtualRuler98> What if you made it so that the unit has a solid tile in their way?
20090722 14:11:57< VurtualRuler98> Which would be removed when they can leave
20090722 14:12:23< JorritAfk> That's a possibility I guess.
20090722 14:13:34< JorritAfk> But I'm going to try switching sides first. If I can find out how :-)
20090722 14:14:04< VurtualRuler98> Or surround them so they can't do anything, or drain all their movement points every turn.
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20090722 14:25:15< zookeeper> you can just make a turn refresh event or something and clear its moves and remaining attacks in it.
20090722 14:32:09< JorritAfk> The poor buggers... I put them in another friendly side and now they're trying to escape on their own :-)
20090722 14:32:16< JorritAfk> So I might have to put in those blocks anyway.
20090722 14:32:21< JorritAfk> Or clear their moves.
20090722 14:33:25< JorritAfk> hmm, or I could just use {PLACE_IMAGE} and put a dummy there...
20090722 14:33:26< Soliton> or assign them the idle ai.
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20090722 14:33:53< JorritAfk> Ah idle ai? Hadn't heard of that.
20090722 14:40:06< JorritAfk> Hmm, I have a problem with a macro; http://pastebin.com/m1c76630a
20090722 14:40:15< JorritAfk> It creates a door and also has an event for when the door 'dies'.
20090722 14:40:22< JorritAfk> But that event removes the images of all doors on the level.
20090722 14:40:28< JorritAfk> Instead of only the door that has died.
20090722 14:48:40< JorritAfk> Any idea?
20090722 14:50:19< Soliton> does first_time_only default to yes?
20090722 14:50:52< JorritAfk> yes
20090722 14:50:55< JorritAfk> But how does that matter?
20090722 14:50:59< JorritAfk> Every door has its own event.
20090722 14:51:06< JorritAfk> That is filtered on {X},{Y} (position)
20090722 14:51:21< Soliton> it would fire again if another unit happens to die on those coordinates.
20090722 14:51:35< JorritAfk> ok, but that's not what happening.
20090722 14:51:43< JorritAfk> I'm just killing one door and all doors disappear.
20090722 14:51:45< JorritAfk> At least the images.
20090722 14:51:45< Soliton> i know. it looks fine otherwise.
20090722 14:51:55< JorritAfk> the door units themselves stay.
20090722 14:52:19< zookeeper> the macro is fine. you're using it wrong most likely.
20090722 14:52:26< zookeeper> such as not taking variable substitution time into account.
20090722 14:52:39< JorritAfk> 	{WHT_DOOR 5 15 7 sw}
20090722 14:52:39< JorritAfk> 	{WHT_DOOR 5 16 7 sw}
20090722 14:52:39< JorritAfk> 	{WHT_DOOR 5 16 19 sw}
20090722 14:52:39< JorritAfk> 	{WHT_DOOR 5 17 20 sw}
20090722 14:52:43< JorritAfk> That's how I'm using the macro.
20090722 14:52:47< zookeeper> oh, right
20090722 14:53:08< zookeeper> well, x1,y1={X},{Y} is actually completely wrong
20090722 14:53:16< JorritAfk> How so?
20090722 14:54:28< Soliton> i was wondering about that part but even with a wrong filter only the correct image should be removed?
20090722 15:00:14< Soliton> so the correct syntax is x,y=... why did you make it x1,y1?
20090722 15:00:31< JorritAfk> I thought x1,y1 were the position of the primary unit?
20090722 15:01:24< Soliton> well, did you just make that up or did you read it somewhere or ..?
20090722 15:01:43< JorritAfk> http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/EventWML
20090722 15:01:50< JorritAfk> At about 1/3th
20090722 15:01:58< JorritAfk> Quote: 'the position of the active unit (referred to as the primary unit) is stored in the variables x1 and y1 '
20090722 15:02:33< JorritAfk> But I see my mistake.
20090722 15:02:41< JorritAfk> I can't use x1,y1 at the left side like that.
20090722 15:02:52< JorritAfk> I could have used something like x,y=$x1,$y1 I suppose?
20090722 15:02:55< Soliton> right, that's a key name not a variable.
20090722 15:02:58< JorritAfk> But in this case x,y={X},{Y} is just as good.
20090722 15:03:03< Soliton> yes.
20090722 15:03:06< JorritAfk> Let me try that.
20090722 15:03:28< Soliton> shouldn't change how the images get removed though.
20090722 15:03:38< JorritAfk> Well
20090722 15:03:45< JorritAfk> x1,y1 in a filter might make the filter match everything.
20090722 15:03:59< JorritAfk> i.e. perhaps it ignores those tags and then you just get an all-matching filter.
20090722 15:04:00< Soliton> yes, so?
20090722 15:04:08< JorritAfk> So all terrain images get removed.
20090722 15:04:26< Soliton> i don't follow.
20090722 15:04:40< JorritAfk> Yes
20090722 15:04:42< JorritAfk> It is fixed now!
20090722 15:04:58< JorritAfk> The filter x1,y1=... just matches all tiles.
20090722 15:05:01< JorritAfk> So it removes all images everywhere.
20090722 15:05:10< JorritAfk> Replacing it with x,y= fixes the problem.
20090722 15:05:15< JorritAfk> Only one image is now removed.
20090722 15:05:18< Soliton> oh the other events fire as well.
20090722 15:05:26< Soliton> ok, that makes sense.
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20090722 15:11:06< JorritAfk> WML is a funny language. Takes some getting used too :-)
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20090722 15:13:43< JorritAfk> Nice! Changing sides works lovely.
20090722 15:14:19< JorritAfk> I add an ACTION parameter to the door macro which is executed when the door is destroyed. And there I changed the side of the relevant units.
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20090722 15:45:11< JorritAfk> Bah, I'm such a newbie. Another error I fail to spot: http://pastebin.com/m3a2a69d4
20090722 15:45:14< JorritAfk> The offending line is marked.
20090722 15:45:18< JorritAfk> If I remove that it works.
20090722 15:45:28< JorritAfk> But with the line present I get an error further down the file.
20090722 15:45:46< JorritAfk> Error: 'Can't parse new macro parameter with a macro call scope open at ...'
20090722 15:46:04< JorritAfk> But as far as I can count that line has the correct number of braces.
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20090722 15:48:27< Soliton> how do you call it?
20090722 15:48:55< JorritAfk> http://pastebin.com/m3c1cb35d
20090722 15:48:59< JorritAfk> I added the call at the end.
20090722 15:50:52< JorritAfk> {WHT_MSG Andol (_ "hello there")} works fine
20090722 15:51:23< Soliton> what if you remove the macro calls from the filter?
20090722 15:51:52< JorritAfk> I can try but those macro calls work fine with the WHT_MSG in the macro.
20090722 15:51:55< JorritAfk> The other things are executed.
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20090722 15:52:50< JorritAfk> Ok, doesn't help.
20090722 15:52:53< JorritAfk> Same error
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20090722 15:53:20< Soliton> you removed the "{ORXY 32 15}" lines?
20090722 15:53:29< JorritAfk> yes
20090722 15:53:31< JorritAfk> All three.
20090722 15:55:21< Soliton> no idea then.
20090722 15:55:26< JorritAfk> ok, no problem.
20090722 15:55:30< JorritAfk> I'll try to figure it out.
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20090722 15:59:03< JorritAfk> hmm, seems the '_' (for translation) is the problem.
20090722 15:59:07< JorritAfk> If I remove that and just give the string then it works.
20090722 16:00:14< JorritAfk> As if a translatable string can only be passed once through a sequence of macro calls?
20090722 16:00:19< Ivanovic> hi
20090722 16:00:26< JorritAfk> Hi Ivanovic
20090722 16:04:25< JorritAfk> Is there a limit on passing translatable messages through a series of macro calls?
20090722 16:05:27< Soliton> no, it's just a substitution..
20090722 16:05:42< Soliton> i guess the space is confusing the preprocessor or so.
20090722 16:05:56< zookeeper> JorritAfk, speaker= expects an unit id
20090722 16:06:10< zookeeper> you're giving it that whole multi-line unit filter
20090722 16:06:16< JorritAfk> no
20090722 16:06:24< JorritAfk> Tenar is the unit parameter.
20090722 16:06:31< JorritAfk> There are three parameters: filter, unit, message
20090722 16:06:37< JorritAfk> And unit == Tenar in my call.
20090722 16:06:46< zookeeper> ah right
20090722 16:07:22< zookeeper> anyway, you can skip the parenthesis by just removing the space, so _"Help! Rescue us please!" instead of (_ "Help! Rescue us please!" )
20090722 16:07:36< JorritAfk> Ok, but with parenthesis should work too no?
20090722 16:07:42< zookeeper> maybe
20090722 16:08:01< JorritAfk> They work if I use them in WHT_MSG macro directly: like {WHT_MSG Tenar (_ "bla") }
20090722 16:08:24< zookeeper> yes, but in your case your passing them as arguments twice
20090722 16:08:33< zookeeper> the parenthesis probably get discarded after the first one
20090722 16:08:33< JorritAfk> hmm?
20090722 16:09:17< zookeeper> they're just a way to encapsulate arguments with spaces in them so that the preprocessor doesn't think there are several arguments
20090722 16:11:24< zookeeper> so when the preprocessor expands your WHT_MESSAGE_ON_FILTER call then maybe it ends up with {WHT_MSG Tenar _ "Help! Rescue us please!"} which it sees as having three arguments
20090722 16:11:42< zookeeper> maybe, i don't know.
20090722 16:11:43< JorritAfk> ok I'll try.
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20090722 16:14:18< JorritAfk> zookeeper: indeed. Your suggestion seems to work.
20090722 16:16:06< zookeeper> great
20090722 16:17:33< Soliton> you could try whether two levels of parenthesis work.
20090722 16:17:55< JorritAfk> Yes but then when I change the macro I might have to fix all calls if there comes another level of indirection.
20090722 16:17:57< Soliton> sounds like a bug either way though.
20090722 16:17:57< JorritAfk> This seems cleaner.
20090722 16:18:56< zookeeper> generally i try to minimize the amount of parenthesis and quotes
20090722 16:19:16< zookeeper> so i always stick the underscore next to the quote without a space when passing them as arguments
20090722 16:20:00< JorritAfk> Anyway, thanks for all the help so far. It is starting to work pretty well now.
20090722 16:20:38< zookeeper> a campaign or a MP scenario?
20090722 16:20:45< JorritAfk> Campaign
20090722 16:20:51< JorritAfk> The first version has been public for a month now.
20090722 16:20:55< JorritAfk> I'm adding new scenarios now.
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20090722 16:38:21< JorritAfk> Time to go
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20090722 19:36:51< shadowmaster> ohhhh, SourceForge.net, I used to think you were better than Gna! >:(
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20090722 20:04:36< Polarina> shadowmaster: I used to like it, but they declined my interest by constantly migrating to worse web designs and for decreasing user accessibility.
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20090722 20:08:44< shadowmaster> I can't locate the admin interfaces anymore
20090722 20:10:41< Polarina> shadowmaster: You're not the only one.
20090722 20:10:41< shadowmaster> ohhh... I have to click on Develop so the "Project Admin" menu appears out of nowhere in the next page. Usability my dog.
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20090722 20:38:09< VurtualRuler98> Back in my day, wesnoth was an operating system you got on a floppy disk, and sourceforge didn't exist.
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20090722 20:46:42< jupiter7> im having problems downloading wesnoth - http://sourceforge.net/projects/wesnoth/files/wesnoth-1.6/wesnoth-1.6.4/Wesnoth_1.6.4.dmg/download
20090722 20:46:57< jupiter7> that link, which was on the wesnoth website, just takes me back to a list of files
20090722 20:50:10< jupiter7> anyone not afk..
20090722 20:51:11< VurtualRuler98> I'm not.
20090722 20:51:14< VurtualRuler98> I have no idea, but I'm not.
20090722 20:51:20< jupiter7> ok
20090722 20:52:28< SiriusGrey> it seems sourceforge has some problems at the moment
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20090722 20:52:44< jupiter7> it just redirects me - is that sourceforges fault then?
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20090722 20:56:00< SiriusGrey> try http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/download.sourceforge.net/pub/sourceforge/w/we/wesnoth/Wesnoth_1.6.4.dmg
20090722 20:56:03< SiriusGrey> oh..
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--- Log closed Thu Jul 23 00:00:25 2009