--- Log opened Thu Jul 23 00:00:25 2009
20090723 00:06:52< grzywacz> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1p0Yap5iG6o&feature=related
20090723 00:06:55< grzywacz> Enjoy my random links.
20090723 00:08:58 * Blarumyrran enjoys
20090723 00:10:26< grzywacz> Coolness.
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20090723 00:32:37< Blarumyrran> I see only cavey mushroom grove in the 1.7.2 map editor, not the dirty one
20090723 00:32:51< Blarumyrran> Is there a reason to this
20090723 00:41:50< Soliton> you can use it as an overlay.
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20090723 00:44:48< Blarumyrran> Overlay like bridges? Unlike bridges it changes the terrain under it to cave
20090723 00:47:28< Soliton> hold shift.
20090723 00:48:04< Blarumyrran> thanks
20090723 00:48:48< Aethaeryn> What's holding shift do?
20090723 00:50:02< Blarumyrran> makes the map editor place mushrooms as overlay like bridges; otherwise it places them with cave
20090723 00:50:09< Blarumyrran> (1.7.2)
20090723 00:50:29< Aethaeryn> Does this work on other things?
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20090723 00:51:20< Blarumyrran> mhm
20090723 00:52:22< Blarumyrran> sometimes counterintuitively tho - eg placing a snow village with shift makes it place snow instead of the village
20090723 00:53:53< Aethaeryn> If fixed, the village-on-any-terrain would be great
20090723 00:53:59< Aethaeryn> Would reduce editor clutter
20090723 00:54:07< Aethaeryn> Same with forests - just place hills and then forests as overlays
20090723 00:54:38< Aethaeryn> Mountain forest and jungle hills.
20090723 00:55:11< Blarumyrran> jungle hills work
20090723 00:55:23< Aethaeryn> Jungle hills don't exist in 1.6
20090723 00:56:06 * Blarumyrran tries
20090723 00:56:42< Blarumyrran> you are wrong
20090723 00:56:45< Blarumyrran> they do
20090723 00:56:50< Blarumyrran> tried in 1.6.2
20090723 00:57:22< Aethaeryn> Ah.
20090723 00:57:35< Blarumyrran> (well i dont know how they work gamemechanicswise)
20090723 00:57:36< Aethaeryn> Well, let me put it this way: there is no jungle hills *type* in 1.6.2
20090723 00:57:42< Blarumyrran> mhm
20090723 00:57:45< Aethaeryn> While there are forest hills actually included as their own terrains.
20090723 00:57:55< Aethaeryn> Which is counter-intuitive, to have to do it a different way
20090723 00:58:25< Aethaeryn> I would like the potential if it switches to full overlays for certain things.
20090723 00:58:40< Blarumyrran> not "a different way"
20090723 00:58:49< Blarumyrran> you can do forested hills the jungle way too
20090723 00:58:52< Aethaeryn> Imagine the potential of jungle-desert as a desert island
20090723 00:59:10< Aethaeryn> Blarumyrran: No, I mean, there are pine forest hills, pine snow forest hills, summer tree forest hills, etc.
20090723 00:59:11< Blarumyrran> Frankly i dont like jungle at all
20090723 00:59:13< Aethaeryn> Just about every combo but jungle.
20090723 00:59:22< Blarumyrran> I understood
20090723 00:59:39< Blarumyrran> But you can do them both the same way too, was my point
20090723 00:59:45< Aethaeryn> It's counterintuitive that there is a common way to do most tree hills, but an obscure way for jungle, was my point.
20090723 00:59:49< Blarumyrran> (annoying tho, ofc)
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20090723 01:00:03< Aethaeryn> I wouldn't mind if all forest-hills were done away with in favor of forest overlays
20090723 01:00:21< Aethaeryn> That way you get things like jungle-desert/sand, pine-mountains, etc.
20090723 01:00:31< Aethaeryn> Villages too.
20090723 01:00:38< Aethaeryn> Would really cut down in clutter.
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20090723 01:02:02< Blarumyrran> you would have to first place hills, and then woods, it would take more time
20090723 01:02:21< Blarumyrran> having shortcuts for the more common combos might be good
20090723 01:03:02< Aethaeryn> Eh, I often put forests and forest-hills next to each other
20090723 01:03:08< Aethaeryn> so it wouldn't take too much more time
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20090723 01:03:22< Aethaeryn> Could actually save time as I do all the hill areas at once then all the forest areas at once
20090723 01:03:49< Aethaeryn> But being able to create your own overlay shortcuts could be a useful thing.
20090723 01:03:50< Blarumyrran> and if you want to change them then, it will take more time
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20090723 01:57:57< Aethaeryn> http://www.theonion.com/content/news_briefs/three_dozen_confirmed_in?utm_source=a-section
20090723 01:58:00< Aethaeryn> I love the new onion
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20090723 08:09:10< jorrit> Hi all
20090723 08:09:17< jorrit> I have a question about WML: http://pastebin.com/m5fb06cba
20090723 08:09:26< jorrit> I don't know what the rules are in WML for putting things on one line.
20090723 08:09:32< jorrit> I couldn't find any info on this on the wiki.
20090723 08:09:41< jorrit> Sometimes it seems to work but sometimes not.
20090723 08:11:13< zookeeper> no multiple tags on the same line
20090723 08:11:33< jorrit> What do you mean by 'tag'?
20090723 08:11:46< zookeeper> nor multiple keys (unless you use the x,y,id,name= syntax, you can put however many keys you want on one line with that)
20090723 08:11:52< zookeeper> [tag] and [/tag]
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20090723 08:12:12< zookeeper> both a closing and an ending tag those always go on their own line
20090723 08:12:19< jorrit> hmm but I don't have any tags at all on that line?
20090723 08:16:20< zookeeper> yes you do, {ORXY 32 15}
20090723 08:16:28< zookeeper> that surely expands to an [or] or something
20090723 08:16:38< jorrit> Ok, it does. But then why does this work: http://pastebin.com/m7e8bcdae
20090723 08:16:49< jorrit> There I have a [fire_event] on the same line as another macro.
20090723 08:17:05< jorrit> It seems that the multiple keys is the problem in my case however.
20090723 08:17:36< zookeeper> because it's enclosed in parenthesis there
20090723 08:18:05< jorrit> Ah so ( {ORXY 32 15} ) ( {ORXY ... } ) would have worked?
20090723 08:18:19< zookeeper> i doubt it
20090723 08:18:30< zookeeper> how do you come up with this stuff? i've never had to explain this to someone else before :P
20090723 08:18:35< jorrit> Then I don't get the difference.
20090723 08:18:49< jorrit> Not sure :-)
20090723 08:18:55< zookeeper> ok, give me a minute..
20090723 08:20:41< zookeeper> parenthesis are used to encapsulate macro arguments. ( {ORXY 32 15} ) ( {ORXY ... } ) doesn't work because you need to pass them inside a single argument, not several.
20090723 08:21:01< jorrit> ah ok
20090723 08:21:42< zookeeper> and there's no way to pass them as a single argument while keeping them on the same line...at least unless you put linebreaks in suitable spots in the ORXY macro definitions
20090723 08:22:12< jorrit> ORXY is very simple. It is just:
20090723 08:22:12< jorrit>     [or]
20090723 08:22:12< jorrit>         x,y={X},{Y}
20090723 08:22:12< jorrit>     [/or]
20090723 08:22:18< zookeeper> ( {WHT_FIRE_EVENT (free_tenar_and_lenk)}) works because it just expands to a multi-line argument enclosed in parenthesis
20090723 08:22:24< zookeeper> yeah
20090723 08:22:59< jorrit> Btw, isn't there a better way to pass a list of coordinate pairs to some macro?
20090723 08:23:06< jorrit> The ORXY way is a bit clumsy imho.
20090723 08:23:12< jorrit> But the only thing I could come up with.
20090723 08:23:53< zookeeper> well, you could use x=31,32,30,31 \n y=15,15,15,16
20090723 08:24:06< jorrit> hmm
20090723 08:24:15< jorrit> would that be fully equivalent in that only four positions match?
20090723 08:24:20< zookeeper> the same way you usually use in a [move_unit_fake] for example (grep for plenty of examples in mainline campaigns)
20090723 08:24:24< zookeeper> yes
20090723 08:24:34< jorrit> ah good!
20090723 08:27:43< zookeeper> on an unrelated note, i'd suggest using as few macros as possible. they're a very handy tool but also very easy to make the code hard to read and understand by using them a lot, especially when calling macros from inside other macros.
20090723 08:28:41< jorrit> Well I guess it is a personal thing but I prefer having my main scenario files as short as I can possibly make them.
20090723 08:28:55< jorrit> And I think the default [tag] ... [/tag] syntax is pretty verbose.
20090723 08:30:46< zookeeper> sure
20090723 08:32:12< jorrit> Anyway, I'm only using them for things that are either very big and used multiple times or else for small things that are used a lot. In the first case it is certainly recommend to use a macro to avoid code duplication. In the second case the fact that they are used so much will make them easier to remember. At least for me :-)
20090723 08:34:28< zookeeper> yeah, i mostly meant complicated custom macros with lots of calls to other custom macros inside them. it should always be relatively quick and easy to figure out what the final expanded WML would look like, and it's hard when there's a lot of unfamiliar macro calls bouncing around.
20090723 08:34:54< jorrit> Well I got rid of the ORXY macro now :-)
20090723 08:34:58< jorrit> Your suggestion is cleaner.
20090723 08:35:45< zookeeper> of course you can write your code in whatever way you're comfortable with, but most likely you'll have to pastebin someone some of your code for debugging help, and at that point they might not be interested in spending a lot of time figuring out hard to read code ;)
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20090723 08:40:54< backslash0150> hat jemand ~adm64 und kann mal testen ob bei ihm gmrun durch kompiliert? bei mir würgt es immer ab.
20090723 08:42:26< Soliton> you might want to ask that in a different channel/language.
20090723 08:44:24< backslash0150> sorry wrong channel 
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20090723 09:58:47< jorrit> Hmm, what could be the reason that place_shroud is failing? http://pastebin.com/m719b553e
20090723 09:58:51< jorrit> side 1 has shroud set to yes.
20090723 09:58:57< jorrit> But the shroud is not there.
20090723 10:01:37< zookeeper> well, does side 1 experience any shroud?
20090723 10:01:44< jorrit> yes
20090723 10:01:50< jorrit> The normal shroud for areas that are too distant is present.
20090723 10:02:07< jorrit> It is just my manually placed shroud that doesn't seem to work.
20090723 10:02:16< zookeeper> well, can any side 1 unit see 22,7?
20090723 10:02:30< jorrit> yes. That simple shroud is just an example.
20090723 10:02:35< jorrit> I have in fact shrouded an entire area.
20090723 10:02:41< jorrit> 	    x=22,23,24,25,23,24,25,26,24,25,26,27,25,26,27,28,27,28,29,28,29
20090723 10:02:41< jorrit> 	    y=7,8,8,9,7,7,8,8,6,7,7,8,6,6,7,7,6,6,7,5,6
20090723 10:02:45< zookeeper> right
20090723 10:02:51< jorrit> I tried the simpler version to see if that worked.
20090723 10:03:15< jorrit> I'm adding the shroud in the prestart event. Maybe that's too early?
20090723 10:03:23< zookeeper> no idea why it wouldn't work, looks fine to me
20090723 10:04:12< zookeeper> the whole map is shrouded by default. if you place some shroud in a prestart event, then you can't see the difference as your starting units will clear the shroud from their vision range immediately.
20090723 10:04:28< jorrit> Ok, so I need to do it in 'start' then?
20090723 10:04:37< zookeeper> no difference
20090723 10:04:43< jorrit> So where?
20090723 10:04:58< zookeeper> i don't know, what is it exactly that you're trying to do?
20090723 10:05:11< jorrit> Well it is a room hidden by a gate. The room should only become visible as soon as the gate is destroyed.
20090723 10:05:20< jorrit> So I will do [remove_shroud] when the gate is destroyed.
20090723 10:05:23< jorrit> To make the contents visible.
20090723 10:05:52< Soliton> put the gate on impassable terrain.
20090723 10:06:17< jorrit> But what is the purpose of [place_shroud] if you can't use it?
20090723 10:06:47< zookeeper> you can use it, but only in areas from which the shroud has already been cleared from, either by a unit (which has since moved away) or by [remove_shroud]
20090723 10:06:53< Soliton> to place shroud. it just doesn't violate game rules.
20090723 10:07:12< zookeeper> you can't place any kind of a persistent shroud with [place_shroud] that wouldn't get cleared away by units' vision normally
20090723 10:07:40< jorrit> Hmm. I was trying to simulate what I've seen used in another campaign (Struggle For Freedom).
20090723 10:07:49< jorrit> There they have rooms that also are unshrouded when the gate is destroyed.
20090723 10:08:05< jorrit> But I can only find [remove_shroud] in the scenario file. Not [place_shroud]
20090723 10:08:31< zookeeper> the whole map is shrouded by default so usually you don't need [place_shroud]
20090723 10:09:13< Ivanovic> moin
20090723 10:09:16< jorrit> Ok, I'll try the impassible terrain suggestion.
20090723 10:09:17< jorrit> Thanks
20090723 10:09:53< zookeeper> there's an impassable overlay terrain which is probably best for that
20090723 10:10:09< jorrit> How can I use that?
20090723 10:10:21< zookeeper> you can paint it on any regular, simple terrain to make it impassable. so impassable grassland would be Gg^Xo
20090723 10:11:05< zookeeper> it's in the "special" terrain group in the editor, you paint overlay terrains with ctrl-click or shift-click
20090723 10:11:15< jorrit> aha thanks
20090723 10:11:40< zookeeper> it's handy so you don't have to create your own custom impassable terrain or use something like cavewall
20090723 10:13:28< jorrit> You cannot see it in the editor?
20090723 10:13:33< jorrit> i.e. no visible feedback.
20090723 10:14:10< zookeeper> that's right
20090723 10:14:37< zookeeper> except in the top right where the terrain info is displayed for the currently selected tile
20090723 10:14:44< jorrit> yes, I saw it there.
20090723 10:15:01< zookeeper> i guess it'd be possible to show some kind of a little overlay marker on the tiles in the editor only
20090723 10:15:07< zookeeper> i'll have to take a look at it
20090723 10:16:20< jorrit> How does the shrould algorithm work? I have a cave with all prisons and it seems that the shroud is already removed for areas which the units are really not able to see yet because it is around two corners.
20090723 10:16:31< jorrit> Seems that cave walls don't block sight or something?
20090723 10:16:45< zookeeper> units see the area to which they can move +1 hex
20090723 10:16:53< zookeeper> that's the only rule
20090723 10:16:56< jorrit> Well they certainly can't move there.
20090723 10:17:02< jorrit> They can only get there in about 4 turns or so.
20090723 10:17:06< zookeeper> really?
20090723 10:17:08< jorrit> yes
20090723 10:17:15< jorrit> Not in distance of course.
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20090723 10:17:21< zookeeper> well, there's something funny in your map or scenario then
20090723 10:17:28< jorrit> In distance they would be able to move there in one turn.
20090723 10:17:33< jorrit> But there are 'cave walls' blocking the path.
20090723 10:18:01< jorrit> ah no!
20090723 10:18:04< jorrit> I see the problem.
20090723 10:18:12< jorrit> There are captives in those areas. They belong to side=2.
20090723 10:18:24< jorrit> But that's a friendly side so they apparently contribute to visibility too?
20090723 10:18:36< zookeeper> by default yes, but you can control that in the side definition
20090723 10:18:49< zookeeper> http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/SideWML
20090723 10:19:10< zookeeper> share_maps= and share_view=
20090723 10:19:12< jorrit> yes, was looking there.
20090723 10:19:26< zookeeper> anyways, i'm afk now.. ->
20090723 10:19:31< jorrit> Thanks for the help.
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20090723 10:41:16< jorrit> Is there a way to have an enemy ignore a certain friendly unit? i.e. the enemy should not attempt to attack that unit.
20090723 10:41:46< jorrit> I couldn't find anything in the [ai] tag.
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20090723 11:23:46< jorrit> So nobody knows how I can prevent the enemy from attacking a unit?
20090723 11:29:10< zookeeper> well, there are some hacky ways
20090723 11:29:39< zookeeper> you could make an attack event which aborts the attack, but that still makes the AI units attempt to attack it and just get stuck beside it
20090723 11:29:57< jorrit> yes, not very useful.
20090723 11:30:10< zookeeper> or you could make a side turn event which changes the side of that unit so on the AI turn it belongs to the AI's side, but that means the AI units can pass through its ZoC and stuff
20090723 11:30:36< jorrit> That would be ok. The unit is in a corner of the room. He is supposed to be imprisoned.
20090723 11:31:46< zookeeper> of course you can also just put up some of those invisible impassable overlay terrains around it
20090723 11:32:01< zookeeper> at least for the duration of the AI's turn
20090723 11:33:14< zookeeper> but then again in that case the AI _might_ end up just staying next to that barrier hoping it'll get closer to what it perceives as a target
20090723 11:33:34< jorrit> fun :-)
20090723 11:33:59< jorrit> Perhaps changing sides temporarily is best in my case.
20090723 11:34:10< zookeeper> you can check "mal-ravanal's capital" in EI for a bit of a similar scene
20090723 11:35:59< zookeeper> the team_name of the prisoners' side in that scenario changes in a side turn event, to prevent the player or the enemies from attacking them
20090723 11:36:25< zookeeper> (that might be a bit more elegant solution than changing the side of the units, since then the team colour of the units doesn't need to change at any point)
20090723 11:36:35< jorrit> ah good
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20090723 12:56:54< JorritAfk> Hi, I have another question.
20090723 12:57:05< JorritAfk> If I am working on a scenario and half-way the scenario I save it.
20090723 12:57:12< JorritAfk> I then change the scenario and then load the save file.
20090723 12:57:25< JorritAfk> Will my loaded game have the changes I made in the scenario or will it be the old one?
20090723 12:58:40< JorritAfk> Seems to be the old one... That makes this pretty hard to debug.
20090723 12:58:55< zookeeper> correct
20090723 12:59:09< zookeeper> however loading from the beginning-of-scenario save works
20090723 12:59:23< JorritAfk> No tricks or anything to help for debugging effects that occur near the end of a scenario?
20090723 12:59:30< JorritAfk> Now I have to play the scenario again and again.
20090723 12:59:59< zookeeper> well, you can use the debug mode to make it faster
20090723 13:00:18< JorritAfk> How?
20090723 13:00:32< zookeeper> well i'm waiting for my internet to react so i can paste you the link
20090723 13:00:39< zookeeper> http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/CommandMode
20090723 13:01:29< JorritAfk> hmm might help a little but still...
20090723 13:02:32< zookeeper> well, all you have is the debug mode and doing whatever little alterations to your map or scenario. it's a pretty good combo.
20090723 13:02:47< JorritAfk> ok
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20090723 16:33:27< JorritAfk> Time to go
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20090723 18:32:54< norbert_> hi all, does wesnoth show somewhere how long the match has been doing on?
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20090723 18:33:09< zookeeper> no
20090723 18:34:00< norbert_> I wonder whether people would like that feature
20090723 18:34:21< norbert_> probably not that hard to implement
20090723 18:34:24< zookeeper> wouldn't hurt to display it in the status or statistics table
20090723 18:35:05< zookeeper> or as a tooltip on the timer or instead of the clock in timerless games
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20090723 18:35:57< norbert_> sounds good
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20090723 18:36:12< norbert_> I'll make a feature request for it
20090723 18:36:43< zookeeper> sure
20090723 18:39:53< norbert_> what would be a good English word to summarize "how long the match has been doing on"?
20090723 18:40:04< norbert_> "time played"?
20090723 18:40:24< norbert_> that's probably Dunglish
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20090723 18:46:07< norbert_> timerless games already show the time, by the way
20090723 18:46:13< norbert_> I also like that as a feature
20090723 18:53:50< norbert_> so, submitted the request
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20090723 20:57:35< flame_me> will the new pathfinder/explorer (dwarves) be recruitable during MP games in the 1.7.x branch?
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20090723 20:58:12< thespaceinvader> flame_me: no, they would be very unbalancing
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20090723 20:58:25< flame_me> damn :(
20090723 20:58:35< thespaceinvader> they won't be in default MP
20090723 20:59:58< flame_me> so, any dditional units (now and in the future) will never be usable during default MP?
20090723 21:01:32< blarumyrran> not necessarily
20090723 21:01:36< flame_me> additional, sorry
20090723 21:02:05< blarumyrran> eg the level3 poacher upgrades were only added recently
20090723 21:02:20< blarumyrran> but no lvl1 recruitable units.
20090723 21:02:22< flame_me> you're right
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20090723 21:03:10< flame_me> by the way, is the main server down?
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20090723 21:05:01< blarumyrran> seems to be
20090723 21:05:40< thespaceinvader> yep, it is
20090723 21:05:54< blarumyrran> 1.7 one is up tho
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20090723 21:07:18< flame_me> wow, the clasher/slasher looks intimidating in 1.7.2
20090723 21:07:22< flame_me> as it should be :)
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20090723 21:09:55< thespaceinvader> flame_me: why thank you
20090723 21:10:04< thespaceinvader> i didn't make the base frames, but i did the animations
20090723 21:10:14< thespaceinvader> the drakes are goign through a big revamp this summer
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20090723 21:10:26< flame_me> great effin job
20090723 21:10:31< thespaceinvader> why thank you
20090723 21:10:43< thespaceinvader> wait til you see the Enforcer and Warden
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20090723 21:10:54< thespaceinvader> the latter is my personal favourite
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20090723 21:16:08< flame_me> I'm observing a drake game right now
20090723 21:20:16< flame_me> I love the blade animation on the clasher
20090723 21:23:39< flame_me> amazing work dude
20090723 21:25:08< flame_me> I think wesnoth is the apogee of 2d graphism and puts some recent games which use 3d engine to shame
20090723 21:26:58< thespaceinvader> thanks
20090723 21:27:04< thespaceinvader> we're getting there
20090723 21:27:13< thespaceinvader> the clasher blade was jetrel, though ;)
20090723 21:27:16< thespaceinvader> we're collaborating
20090723 21:27:20< thespaceinvader> I did the spear on the clasher
20090723 21:28:45< flame_me> yes, I just saw it :)
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20090723 21:29:09< flame_me> it's a replay so I can't tell the clasher to hit with the spear :)
20090723 21:29:26< idiota> hi everyone
20090723 21:29:44< flame_me> he hits like a hoplite with that spear, effin nice :D
20090723 21:30:03< idiota> what are you guys currently talking?
20090723 21:30:06< flame_me> hi idiota
20090723 21:30:22< idiota> hi flame_me
20090723 21:30:52< flame_me> the new graphics and animations (which are top of the notch)
20090723 21:31:39< idiota> oh i see
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20090723 21:32:39< idiota> so which unit's graphics and animations are you trying to modify?
20090723 21:32:56< flame_me> uhh.. none, I'm a mere player :)
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20090723 21:33:28< flame_me> just showing my appreciation to the contributing people like thespaceinvader
20090723 21:33:55< idiota> ah i see
20090723 21:34:22< thespaceinvader> i'm in the process of animating new Drtake sprites, among other things, for my big summer project
20090723 21:35:20< idiota> drake sprites? it that a new unit?
20090723 21:35:41< flame_me> I think sprites are the graphics (frames)
20090723 21:36:02< idiota> oh ok
20090723 21:36:35< flame_me> will these new animations/sprites you are working be comitted to the 1.7.x branch when you're done?
20090723 21:36:45< flame_me> or do you do it for fun/hobby?
20090723 21:36:55< thespaceinvader> sprites are the animation frames, indeed
20090723 21:36:57< thespaceinvader> and both, flame_me
20090723 21:36:59< blarumyrran> these are surely contradictory
20090723 21:37:00< thespaceinvader> at least, usually
20090723 21:37:02< flame_me> committed, sorry
20090723 21:37:12< thespaceinvader> over the summer, I'm doing it as part of the Wesnoth Summer Art Scholarship
20090723 21:37:25< thespaceinvader> no, i do it as a fun hobby which contributes to the game
20090723 21:37:39< thespaceinvader> this isn't a professionally developed game, you know ;)
20090723 21:38:09< idiota> what is wesnoth summer art scholarship??
20090723 21:38:23< idiota> is that for your school or something?
20090723 21:38:23< noy> its an art scholarship?
20090723 21:38:25< thespaceinvader> http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/Wesnoth_Summer_Art_Scholarship
20090723 21:38:33< flame_me> yet it wreaks havoc on many commercial games :)
20090723 21:38:53< thespaceinvader> it's a small stipend wesnoth are paying to a couple of artists who are developing their skills by contributing
20090723 21:39:08< thespaceinvader> the powersa that be are aiming to make it an annual thing
20090723 21:39:15< thespaceinvader> akin to Google's SUmmer of Code
20090723 21:40:02< idiota> very nice
20090723 21:40:32< idiota> i'm impressed :)
20090723 21:45:57< flame_me> if it's held again next year, my girlfriend might apply too
20090723 21:46:24< blarumyrran> ill apply maybe
20090723 21:49:27< flame_me> what software do you use, thespaceinvader?
20090723 21:49:32< Blueblaze> blarumyrran ftw
20090723 21:49:45< thespaceinvader> GIMP, flame_me 
20090723 21:51:17< blarumyrran> gimp ftw
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20090723 22:08:22< VurtualRuler98> Couldn't they name it something else?
20090723 22:08:43< blarumyrran> What, gimp?
20090723 22:08:49< VurtualRuler98> Yeah.
20090723 22:10:48< blarumyrran> Why would they. There are only so many pronouncable four-letter-combinations that arent already trademarked.
20090723 22:10:51< blarumyrran> wouldnt*
20090723 22:12:01-!- kane77 [n=kane@194.1.130.108] has joined #wesnoth
20090723 22:12:31< noy> the scholarship might not be the same next year. 
20090723 22:12:47< noy> it was a test program and we're assessing its results. 
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20090723 22:22:05< VurtualRuler98> Oh, what it would be like to have such ignorance again.
20090723 22:24:33-!- Noyga [n=lame-z@wesnoth/developer/noyga] has left #wesnoth ["Quitte"]
20090723 22:27:16< idiota> so you guys all play wesnoth?
20090723 22:27:28< apoi> yes
20090723 22:29:13< idiota> haha, i guess that was an obvious question
20090723 22:32:47< ancestral> Alright, who's good with words?
20090723 22:33:42< ancestral> I'm trying to name a unit who's going to be more powerful than a flanker
20090723 22:34:01< ancestral> A word for an agile warrior who might catch someone by surprise
20090723 22:34:22-!- [Relic] [n=[Relic]@99-58-54-211.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #wesnoth
20090723 22:34:24< idiota> ??
20090723 22:34:46< ancestral> Like "pouncer"
20090723 22:35:29< [Relic]> Hello :)
20090723 22:39:38< VurtualRuler98> Ambusher?
20090723 22:39:43< VurtualRuler98> Or is that name already used?
20090723 22:40:02< [Relic]> fuzzybunnyslayer?
20090723 22:40:19< VurtualRuler98> There's a whole bunch of thesaurus things and generic overused terms.
20090723 22:40:25< ancestral> Saurian Skirmisher → Saurian Ambusher → Saurian Flanker → ???
20090723 22:40:49< ancestral> I'm saving guerilla for level 5
20090723 22:40:55< [Relic]> brute
20090723 22:41:02< [Relic]> stalker
20090723 22:41:18< ancestral> brute: too violent
20090723 22:41:24< ancestral> stalker: too stealthy
20090723 22:41:50< ancestral> partisan is an option, but seems informal militaristically
20090723 22:42:01< [Relic]> scout
20090723 22:42:09< ancestral> Not good for a level 4 name
20090723 22:42:16< VurtualRuler98> Guerillas don't really have any connection with ambushing or flanking on the scale we're talking.
20090723 22:42:17< [Relic]> striker
20090723 22:42:21< ancestral> Hmmm
20090723 22:42:28< VurtualRuler98> That'd be like having a saurian blitzkrieg.
20090723 22:42:37< VurtualRuler98> or saurian trench warfare.
20090723 22:42:56< ancestral> You don't think so?
20090723 22:43:08< ancestral> Even if it was a level 5 Saurian
20090723 22:43:18< VurtualRuler98> It'd hardly be anything level 5.
20090723 22:43:20< ancestral> I like striker, I might go with that
20090723 22:43:25< VurtualRuler98> You don't really need a level 5 for anything.
20090723 22:43:31< ancestral> Right, I don't…
20090723 22:44:12< [Relic]> level 5 should be lucky survivor  :)
20090723 22:44:23< ancestral> OF course
20090723 22:44:33< ancestral> So the question is, how did he survive?
20090723 22:44:38< ancestral> Guerilla tactics, perhaps
20090723 22:45:03< VurtualRuler98> Flankers and ambusher refer really to unexpected direction of attack.
20090723 22:45:13< VurtualRuler98> Geurillas really just hit before you can stop them.
20090723 22:45:37< ancestral> A natural evolution, then
20090723 22:45:41< VurtualRuler98> Say, random guys with rifles at a tree line, hidden, who then run into some city and start shooting people.
20090723 22:45:46< VurtualRuler98> then they run away
20090723 22:45:52< VurtualRuler98> Leaving lots of dead things.
20090723 22:46:10< ancestral> "Guerrilla warfare is the unconventional warfare and combat in which a small group of combatants use mobile tactics in the form of ambushes and raids to combat a larger and less mobile formal army."
20090723 22:46:19< VurtualRuler98> If you had a fork(at..those levels?), "pincer" could be a more defensive one.
20090723 22:46:33< VurtualRuler98> or if it's already a defensive enough unit.
20090723 22:47:01< VurtualRuler98> Ambusher is a unit
20090723 22:47:32< VurtualRuler98> So you need something more.
20090723 22:48:19< VurtualRuler98> So you could have pincer and enveloper, although they're sorta defensive, or encircler.
20090723 22:48:19< ancestral> A blitzer
20090723 22:48:31< ancestral> Wolf Blitzer :P
20090723 22:48:52< VurtualRuler98> blitz, blitzkrieg, pretty much the countermeasure.
20090723 22:48:55< ancestral> That'd be a great Goblin high level unit joke
20090723 22:49:15< VurtualRuler98> Going quickly so you can't get flanked or caught in trench warfare.
20090723 22:49:21< ancestral> Assaulter maybe
20090723 22:49:48< grzywacz> http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/3252/thewarehousecomic426a.gif
20090723 22:50:31< VurtualRuler98> Stick figures obviously grab things by stabbing them.
20090723 22:50:34< ancestral> grzywacz: Actually, that's kind of interesting. Not many comics are animated
20090723 22:51:05< VurtualRuler98> Lots have single-frame animations
20090723 22:51:27< VurtualRuler98> others have all their frames being a one-framed animation.
20090723 22:51:44< VurtualRuler98> Behold, obscure language.
20090723 22:52:39< noy> grzywacz: did you win?
20090723 22:52:42< grzywacz> noy, yes
20090723 22:52:54< grzywacz> By turn 12 or something.
20090723 22:53:14< noy> on your side?
20090723 22:53:18< noy> (of the map)
20090723 22:53:29< grzywacz> No, we made a packman.
20090723 22:53:33< grzywacz> pacman
20090723 22:53:33< grzywacz> ;)
20090723 22:53:45< noy> yeah, which side did all the movement?
20090723 22:54:14< grzywacz> Well. I was going clockwise from the bottom.
20090723 22:54:27< grzywacz> DK counter-clockwise, then retreated clockwise as well.
20090723 22:54:51< grzywacz> We ended up controlling left and top sides of the map.
20090723 22:54:58< grzywacz> Both their leaders died in the center.
20090723 22:55:04< grzywacz> Interesting map.
20090723 22:55:30< grzywacz> I guess they're going to post a replay soon. From turn 4.
20090723 22:55:38< grzywacz> ancestral, yeah, that's something new.
20090723 22:56:06< grzywacz> lol, no replay......
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20090723 22:58:51< grzywacz> Anyway, they lost mostly because of purple not attacking at all until turn 7 or something.
20090723 22:59:19< grzywacz> And complaining about rng followed....
20090723 23:00:15< noy> funny thats the tournament leader. 
20090723 23:00:33< noy> organizaer
20090723 23:00:44< Dragonking> And between me moving counter-clockwise at the beggining and then retreating, i attacked the upper-left and too enemy castle blocking him there
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20090723 23:01:05< noy> really this tournament comes down to you guys vs natasiel's team
20090723 23:01:21< noy> I wonder if it will ever happen
20090723 23:01:56< wajimba> ancestral, did you update the .pdf?
20090723 23:02:05< ancestral> Oh yes
20090723 23:02:09< ancestral> I'm about to make a post, actually
20090723 23:02:35< ancestral> I'm going to introduce each faction one at a time, and by the time I'm done, the era will be ready to download
20090723 23:02:39< ancestral> '
20090723 23:02:43< ancestral> First up is the Drakes
20090723 23:02:49< wajimba> did you take it down from where it was?
20090723 23:04:08< wajimba> are you going to try to get new artwork made, or just take the highest available level all the way?
20090723 23:07:10< grzywacz> Right. I had my + a few of DK units at night on the left vs Loyalists, when on the fight drakes were just shuffling around.
20090723 23:07:20< grzywacz> s/fight/right/
20090723 23:07:26< grzywacz> I'm making interesting typos today.
20090723 23:09:15< VurtualRuler98> The only interesting typo is typoing a genetic code and accidentally figuring out how a disease does something.
20090723 23:09:32< VurtualRuler98> So you can increase cold medicine efficiency.
20090723 23:09:45< wajimba> when did that happen?
20090723 23:10:01< VurtualRuler98> Never, that I know of.
20090723 23:10:11< VurtualRuler98> But it's still the only interesting typo.
20090723 23:12:56< blarumyrran> on the topic http://dresdencodak.com/2009/07/12/fabulous-prizes/
20090723 23:18:13< ancestral> wajimba: I did take it down
20090723 23:18:22< ancestral> Because I'll be releasing this soon
20090723 23:18:36< ancestral> wajimba: I would love new artwork! Unfortunately, I am not an artist
20090723 23:18:49< wajimba> I'm not either...
20090723 23:18:55< ancestral> Should people want to make new artwork for it I'd be honored
20090723 23:19:08< VurtualRuler98> I wish I knew how to draw on demand.
20090723 23:19:10< ancestral> The best thing to do is to release this and if people get interested in doing that then awesome
20090723 23:19:39< ancestral> I know Draw Poker :P
20090723 23:20:06< VurtualRuler98> It's like a ballmer's peak of alchohol, mountain dew, artistic talent, and boredom.
20090723 23:22:09< blarumyrran> what is
20090723 23:22:17< VurtualRuler98> My drawing skill.
20090723 23:22:50< blarumyrran> samples?
20090723 23:23:02< VurtualRuler98> If I try drawing, I'll make something blocky, but randomly I'll just open paint.net and spend 5 minutes drawing a savana, with a looming feeling of war.
20090723 23:23:25< VurtualRuler98> Unfortunately this 5 minutes was in vain, as someone got 7 million different forms of adware on my computer and it melted.
20090723 23:23:35< blarumyrran> sounds cool
20090723 23:23:43< VurtualRuler98> I wish I was kidding though.
20090723 23:23:49< wajimba> I love it when that happens
20090723 23:24:05< VurtualRuler98> Wasn't actually my computer technically, though.
20090723 23:25:00< wajimba> did it literally melt tho?
20090723 23:25:04-!- Vornicus [n=vorn@ool-45774a2a.dyn.optonline.net] has quit ["Leaving"]
20090723 23:25:10< wajimba> that'd be kinda cool
20090723 23:25:27< wajimba> and sad too
20090723 23:25:39< VurtualRuler98> Yes.
20090723 23:25:44< VurtualRuler98> Some pins melted.
20090723 23:25:48< VurtualRuler98> for the CPU I think.
20090723 23:26:00< VurtualRuler98> I think it was the number being so huge.
20090723 23:26:33< VurtualRuler98> 7,200,000 or more, it could have had more digits even..
20090723 23:26:53< wajimba> how do you even get that many?
20090723 23:26:56< VurtualRuler98> Then it just went to some dull black with gray text screen, a game over screen of BSODs.
20090723 23:27:03< VurtualRuler98> I have no idea how this happenned either.
20090723 23:27:19< VurtualRuler98> And it's starting to happen again.
20090723 23:27:23< VurtualRuler98> With another computer.
20090723 23:27:39< wajimba> do you have antivirus software on it?
20090723 23:27:46< VurtualRuler98> It's not mine, and no, there isn't any.
20090723 23:27:53< wajimba> well, that's how
20090723 23:27:54< VurtualRuler98> None, owner refuses to have any.
20090723 23:28:05< VurtualRuler98> When they buy it, they'll use IE unless someone tells them to use firefox.
20090723 23:28:07-!- martin__1 [n=martin@g228215013.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["leaving"]
20090723 23:28:19< wajimba> you can only afford that if you have mac or linux
20090723 23:28:35< wajimba> do they just not want to pay for it?
20090723 23:28:36< VurtualRuler98> Only really linux
20090723 23:28:41< VurtualRuler98> and only because you should be smart enough
20090723 23:28:49< VurtualRuler98> Pay? They'll smack you if you try to use ad aware.
20090723 23:29:03< VurtualRuler98> You just go through the installation of firefox and they'll scream at you because "THERE WERE FOUR OPTIONS THERE!"
20090723 23:29:24< wajimba> why? do they like melted cpu's?
20090723 23:29:32< VurtualRuler98> They're paranoid of software.
20090723 23:29:46< blarumyrran> "they"=?
20090723 23:30:01< wajimba> sounds like their fears would be better used on viruses
20090723 23:30:07< VurtualRuler98> Someone who, for pity reasons, I refuse to reveal their identity.
20090723 23:30:18< VurtualRuler98> I think they're hiding their long time phobia of antivirus, since we only get it there in time for the big apocalyptic event to happen at the last second.
20090723 23:30:41< wajimba> hmm
20090723 23:31:02< wajimba> so they think it's part of the problem
20090723 23:31:05< wajimba> not the cure
20090723 23:31:17< VurtualRuler98> They're pretty crazy.
20090723 23:32:10< wajimba> they need to figure out that computers were made for software
20090723 23:34:00< wajimba> and if you try to live taking no risks all your life, you won't have much life at the end to speak of
20090723 23:34:14< wajimba> you just have to know what's up and go for it
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20090723 23:44:01< Aethaeryn> ancestral: lvl 5s?
20090723 23:44:09< ancestral> Yes
20090723 23:44:10< blarumyrran> Funny, i almost always smile when things go wrong
20090723 23:44:18< Aethaeryn> Awesome.
20090723 23:44:33< Aethaeryn> ancestral: Just an idea... Perhaps combine your project with Ken Oh's lvl 0s.
20090723 23:44:42< VurtualRuler98> Cat mauls your face, blood is running everywhere, people panic, someone's suffered serious wounds too.
20090723 23:44:47< ancestral> I saw his
20090723 23:44:47< VurtualRuler98> Smile then.
20090723 23:44:50< ancestral> once I think
20090723 23:44:52< Aethaeryn> Ken Oh made a lot of lvl 0s (some are included in Wesband) and more were in concept
20090723 23:44:59< ancestral> Yeah it was nice
20090723 23:45:12< wajimba> ancestral: are you posting on the wiki page?
20090723 23:45:13< Aethaeryn> It would be really awesome if there were units straight up from lvl 0s to lvl 5s for all of Default factions + Thugs
20090723 23:45:21< ancestral> Maybe eventually
20090723 23:45:33< VurtualRuler98> It'd be really unbalanced in most ways.
20090723 23:45:36< Aethaeryn> lots of RP potential.
20090723 23:45:47< ancestral> Pentepeira is the old name, so it shall either collect dust or I might delete it
20090723 23:45:52< ancestral> Yeah I'm going to delete it
20090723 23:45:57< Aethaeryn> VurtualRuler98: Lvl 0s to lvl 5s would be unbalanced?
20090723 23:46:03< VurtualRuler98> for every unit?
20090723 23:46:12< VurtualRuler98> Lots of units are notable for being cheap, going relatively nowhere.
20090723 23:46:15< Aethaeryn> Yes. At the very least humans, but more concepts were done by Ken Oh.
20090723 23:46:22< Aethaeryn> It wouldn't be for standard MP
20090723 23:46:34< Aethaeryn> It'd be for those crazy enough to do make custom content
20090723 23:46:37< blarumyrran> VurtualRuler98, a dog bit a big scar in my face, but i didnt smile then; but that was because i thought if i moved my mouth it might make it worse
20090723 23:46:39< VurtualRuler98> A human spearman, for example, relies on being a cheap infantryman.
20090723 23:46:48< Aethaeryn> Yes.
20090723 23:46:52< Aethaeryn> This is in default.
20090723 23:47:06< Aethaeryn> If you're in a campaign where you recruit peasants, ruffians, woodsmen, and spearman, it relies on being your one tough unit
20090723 23:47:08< blarumyrran> are you going to rebalance all the lvl1 too?
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20090723 23:47:19< Aethaeryn> Custom campaigns/scenarios are by nature not balanced at all like Default MP.
20090723 23:47:28< VurtualRuler98> If you start having everyone being able to reach level 5, your great uber swords guys, and mega tree zombies, and wolf eletrocutors, you'd have either one winning faction, or a teeteringly unbalanced system.
20090723 23:47:34< ancestral> Hmmm
20090723 23:47:42< Aethaeryn> If it's for faction v. faction.
20090723 23:47:54< VurtualRuler98> Actually, wolf electrocutors would be awesome.
20090723 23:47:55< Aethaeryn> Those that normally stop at lvl 1 or lvl 2 could be made extremely subpar in the later levels.
20090723 23:47:57< blarumyrran> its for one-character-rpg as i understood?
20090723 23:47:58< ancestral> VurtualRuler98: Nah I'm not deviating from the unit tree. It will be a natural extension
20090723 23:48:00< Aethaeryn> ancestral: Is that how you did it?
20090723 23:48:13< Aethaeryn> For example, Sylph, who can get up to lvl 4 naturally, would be an awesome lvl 5
20090723 23:48:18< ancestral> It could be. Also would work well in survival games
20090723 23:48:22< Aethaeryn> But walking corpse would still be pretty much a trash at lvl 5
20090723 23:48:25< VurtualRuler98> If it's a subpar level 5, why level 5?
20090723 23:48:30< ancestral> Why not
20090723 23:48:34< Aethaeryn> Exactly.
20090723 23:48:35< Aethaeryn> Why lvl 0s?
20090723 23:48:44< Aethaeryn> And yet they do fit in nicely in Wesband
20090723 23:48:45< ancestral> I haven't committed to level 0's yet
20090723 23:48:51< VurtualRuler98> Perfection is reached when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
20090723 23:48:58< VurtualRuler98> not reached*
20090723 23:49:01< VurtualRuler98> Gah, quote failed.
20090723 23:49:04< Aethaeryn> ancestral: Someone else is doing lvl 0s. If you don't commit to lvl 0s I can always use them both still.
20090723 23:49:20< Aethaeryn> Just because you made lvl 5s for use in content and someone else made lvl 0s, doesn't mean a third person couldn't combine them for his campaign.
20090723 23:49:36< ancestral> Sure, and I'm open to combining them
20090723 23:49:40< Aethaeryn> I think it would be interesting to control a character from lvl 0 to lvl 5
20090723 23:49:42< ancestral> All this is GPL
20090723 23:50:13< Aethaeryn> ancestral: Though when you do stats, I would say that it would be for the best that units that stop at lvl 1 (goblins, WCs) have awful high levels, lvl 2s (lancers) not too good, lvl 3s okay, and lvl 4s best of the group
20090723 23:50:23< Aethaeryn> i.e. a lvl 2 corpse would be more like a lvl 1.5
20090723 23:50:39< Aethaeryn> That way the units whose main strengths were getting-up-to-high-levels aren't forgotten.
20090723 23:51:01< VurtualRuler98> Really, why can't things be the same?
20090723 23:51:03< Aethaeryn> If a Sylph improves on 10-5, I'm always choosing druids
20090723 23:51:13< VurtualRuler98> If you're having crazy one-man RPG player characters, it wouldn't work well.
20090723 23:51:40< Aethaeryn> VurtualRuler98: It adds strategy to the choice
20090723 23:51:47< VurtualRuler98> I mean seriously, wesnoth is a turn based strategy.
20090723 23:51:49< VurtualRuler98> Not a roguelike.
20090723 23:52:14< Aethaeryn> VurtualRuler98: often units that end at lvl 2 are stronger/strategically-better than lvl 2s that promote in the choice. You'd have to choose between better-now or better-later.
20090723 23:52:34< Aethaeryn> At any rate, my idea's just an idea for "balancing" higher levels.
20090723 23:52:39< Aethaeryn> It's a project of ancestral, not either of us.
20090723 23:52:58< ancestral> It shouldn't be too hard, because there's a magic formula when it comes to attacks :)
20090723 23:53:00< VurtualRuler98> Suicide is a project of some suicidal guy, not either of us. We should let them die then, right?
20090723 23:53:02< Aethaeryn> All I have is an opinion I can give on things that I may or may not use in the future based on what I'd prefer personally.
20090723 23:53:35< VurtualRuler98> Opinions and arguments are needed here.
20090723 23:53:40< Aethaeryn> < VurtualRuler98> Suicide is a project of some suicidal guy, not either of us. We should let them die then, right? <- Ethically, it's arguable. A better example would've been something vicious like someone who had a project to collect heads off of living people's bodies.
20090723 23:54:02< VurtualRuler98> A better example would not be that.
20090723 23:54:08< wajimba> woah that got morbid fast
20090723 23:54:24< Aethaeryn> < VurtualRuler98> Opinions and arguments are needed here. <- Opinions and arguments aren't *really* needed here. Ultimately, it's ancestral's choice, and ultimately, virtual games don't matter at all in the long run.
20090723 23:54:27< VurtualRuler98> Suicide is a generally accepted bad thing.
20090723 23:54:40< VurtualRuler98> games do matter, everything changes the future a bit.
20090723 23:54:44< Aethaeryn> wajimba: just picking an exteremly exaggerated example to illustrate my point that VurtualRuler98 picked an extremely exaggerated example.
20090723 23:54:45< VurtualRuler98> And doing great is better than doing well.
20090723 23:55:12< VurtualRuler98> Simple concepts, shared in opinion by most, are the most effective.
20090723 23:55:13< Aethaeryn> < VurtualRuler98> Suicide is a generally accepted bad thing. <- Except by those who kill themselves.
20090723 23:55:45-!- zookeeper [n=l@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit []
20090723 23:56:17< VurtualRuler98> Are we all emos? Someone look for copies of twilight, linkin park CDs, and IRC networks with noone who can legally vote.
20090723 23:56:47< VurtualRuler98> None? Then we're good.
20090723 23:57:04< blarumyrran> emo = not good? :((
20090723 23:57:17< VurtualRuler98> No emos here, example works.
20090723 23:57:22< VurtualRuler98> Emos here, example is flawed.
20090723 23:57:23< Aethaeryn> VurtualRuler98: When you're comparing lvl 5s in an add-on to suicide, I'm not quite sure your point comes across.
20090723 23:57:37< VurtualRuler98> Stop overcontemplating a simple point.
20090723 23:57:48< VurtualRuler98> It's like reading words like "fuel" and "Utah" repeatedly.
20090723 23:57:48 * blarumyrran compared Aethaeryn to holocaust
20090723 23:57:51< VurtualRuler98> or "monster"
20090723 23:58:06< Aethaeryn> blarumyrran: Yes, but you often win when you play against me in games... so...
20090723 23:58:09 * Aethaeryn compares blarumyrran to Hitler!
20090723 23:58:25< VurtualRuler98> If we were all Hitlers, I'd have machinegun hands.
20090723 23:58:49 * blarumyrran compares Aethaeryn to Goebbels!
20090723 23:59:10 * Aethaeryn compares VurtualRuler98 to Mussolini.
20090723 23:59:13< blarumyrran> Like hitler, but without the Mustache Of Power
20090723 23:59:31< Aethaeryn> Like hitler, but without much success in anything war-related
20090723 23:59:40< Aethaeryn> ;)
20090723 23:59:50< VurtualRuler98> Hey, at least I got the trains there on thyme.
20090723 23:59:54< Aethaeryn> (For all I know, VurtualRuler98 is a million times better than me in strategy games.)
20090723 23:59:55< blarumyrran> Im not sure hitler had any success
--- Log closed Fri Jul 24 00:00:04 2009